POLL: How do you generally view the LC?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Imagine if I taught that by some revelation, in God's word, I found that you could wiggle your pinkie finger and God would come. A giant shining angel would come and do your bidding. Of course only you could see the angel, and hear his voice, but the Angel of God would appear, and you'd be brought "into the spirit world" and could control/manipulate the physical world. All you have to remember, is to "just" wiggle your finger a certain way. Like the song says, "It's so simple and easy" that any HS student can do it.

And the verse is right there - Luke 11:19. “But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you” And nobody seen this but me!! Hey, everybody, come join my Group - The Finger of God!! We can have conferences... I'll put out books on Daniel 5, with Belshazzar's feast, another on John 7 & 8, with Jesus writing in the dirt....

Do you see where I'm going? Anyone can get a "revelation" and drag some naifs along. Remember that useful word: "just". Make it simple. Give them one magical move, and the universe is theirs. Then they are yours. Now look at all those groups above, again. See how simple it is? Anyone can do it.

I see this all along a spectrum. What you talked about above is at one extreme end of the spectrum, that is, that man can control God by what he does or says. Obviously this is an erroneous extreme. The other end of the spectrum, I suppose, would be that God has delegated no authority to man whatsoever. Therefore, man really has no authority or responsibility to affect anything in God's grand design. Both are "just" erroneous, non-biblical extremes, right?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I see this all along a spectrum. What you talked about above is at one extreme end of the spectrum, that is, that man can control God by what he does or says. Obviously this is an erroneous extreme. The other end of the spectrum, I suppose, would be that God has delegated no authority to man whatsoever. Therefore, man really has no authority or responsibility to affect anything in God's grand design. Both are "just" erroneous, non-biblical extremes, right?

Perhaps, but that has absolutely nothing to do with my point, which was on someone having a special interpretation of Jesus Christ and the Bible, the presumed validity of which allowed them, ultimately, to control others.

Ultimately, God has nothing to do with it. God is just a prop to gain your interest, then "undue influence" is applied until the subject becomes an automaton. The LC does this, as do the others I cited. They're F1 groups. (Actual philosophical positions are quite beside the point.) The fact that your contact said that his subjective experiences were "off the charts" indicates to me a sphere of heightened suggestibility, in which undue influence is then put to work, and people become ministry drones.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Ultimately, God has nothing to do with it. God is just a prop to gain your interest, then "undue influence" is applied until the subject becomes an automaton. The LC does this, as do the others I cited. They're F1 groups. (Actual philosophical positions are quite beside the point.) The fact that your contact said that his subjective experiences were "off the charts" indicates to me a sphere of heightened suggestibility, in which undue influence is then put to work, and people become ministry drones.

Could be, but not necessarily. The Spirit was very strong back then, and most acknowledge that the Jesus People, and others then, were evidence of this move - a "genuine move of God" as a response to the mess that the counter-culture and turbulent times of the 60s gave us. Being young Christians without much discernment might allow many of those folks to be swayed more easily, which I think is your point.

And there were a lot of younger ones who came into "The Recovery" during that time. The couple I mentioned were probably in their early-mid thirties. And though they had been around the block maybe one and a half times, I could see where they perhaps were still somewhat susceptible. Again, nonetheless, God's Spirit was moving, and that includes places like Eldon Hall.

Another thing, that I personally experienced, is how folks who had been into drugs back then, often received the Lord with an experience of Him that they said was, "Much better than any drug!" This, I think, the Spirit did to conclusively draw people away. Over the years, He has been weaning me away from this more emotional high.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Could be, but not necessarily. The Spirit was very strong back then, and most acknowledge that the Jesus People, and others then, were evidence of this move - a "genuine move of God" as a response to the mess that the counter-culture and turbulent times of the 60s gave us. Being young Christians without much discernment might allow many of those folks to be swayed more easily, which I think is your point.

And there were a lot of younger ones who came into "The Recovery" during that time. The couple I mentioned were probably in their early-mid thirties. And though they had been around the block maybe one and a half times, I could see where they perhaps were still somewhat susceptible. Again, nonetheless, God's Spirit was moving, and that includes places like Eldon Hall.

Another thing, that I personally experienced, is how folks who had been into drugs back then, often received the Lord with an experience of Him that they said was, "Much better than any drug!" This, I think, the Spirit did to conclusively draw people away. Over the years, He has been weaning me away from this more emotional high.

The spirit of the 60’s and 70’s counterculture gave birth to many movements. There were the Rajneeshees, Hare Krishnas, Jesus people, Heavens Gate, Church of Satan as well as many others.

Many people were feeling the spirit. I have no doubt that there was a genuine move of the spiritual realm in those days but to claim this move of “the Spirit” was a move of God is claiming these eastern religion offshoots and other cults were of the same God. That of course is not true. If anything this goes to show that this particular spirit was indiscriminate of personal belief.

God moves where His gospel is preached and when there is repentance in response. Repentance is oddly missing from testimonies you hear coming out of the Jesus movement and most Charismatic movements in general. This alone is enough cause for concern.

The Jesus people movement was a charismatic restorationist movement which was similar in theological structure to that of the LC's, and it only lasted 10 years. This movement fails the Acts 5:38-9 test, however, I as well as many others became Christian’s outside of any religious movement. This proves that the movement God began in Acts 2 is, to this day, still very much in effect.

The Jesus movement is just another example to learn from in heeding Christ's warning in Matthew 24:24 and Paul's in 2 Thess 2:9 about chasing after signs and wonders as validation. Scripture however teaches the signs of a genuine believer is repentance and godliness. If either of those are missing, chances are it is not a move of God.

BTW, F1 is my answer to your poll. That applies to the movement itself and has no bearing on the individual and their salvation.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Many people were feeling the spirit. I have no doubt that there was a genuine move of the spiritual realm in those days but to claim this move of “the Spirit” was a move of God is claiming these eastern religion offshoots were of the same God. That of course is not true. If anything this goes to show that this particular spirit was indiscriminate of personal belief.

BTW, F1 is my answer to your poll. That applies to the movement itself and has no bearing on the individual and their salvation.

Thanks for your answer to this thread's poll questions! You are the first to put an outright F1: "A completely different Christ" & "Was and is a tool of Satan."

Concerning the bolded above, can you state this another way? I've read it three times and I'm not entirely sure what you are stating.

(as to the rest regarding the Jesus People, I'll let others respond . . .)

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for your answer to this thread's poll questions! You are the first to put an outright F1: "A completely different Christ" & "Was and is a tool of Satan."

(as to the rest regarding the Jesus People, I'll let others respond . . .)

I believe byHismercy holds that honor.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Concerning the bolded above, can you state this another way? I've read it three times and I'm not entirely sure what you are stating.

For the reason that so many other spiritual movements began at the time of the Jesus movement alludes to the fact that it wasn't God's spirit operating in the forefront. Factor in the lack of repentance in many of the testimonies of that time supports this belief.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I believe byHismercy holds that honor.



For the reason that so many other spiritual movements began at the time of the Jesus movement alludes to the fact that it wasn't God's spirit operating in the forefront. Factor in the lack of repentance in many of the testimonies of that time supports this belief.

You are right - ByHismercy did do the first F1. Well I'll have to take your prize away then . . . sorry.

Concerning God's Spirit moving, the fact that other nonChristian groups were exploding at the time doesn't mean God's Spirit was NOT moving then too! To think that is an obvious logical fallacy. I believe when the enemy moves, God will countermove, and visa versa.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for your answer to this thread's poll questions! You are the first to put an outright F1: "A completely different Christ" & "Was and is a tool of Satan."

I equivocated, and probably will continue to do so, feeling that God alone is judge, and doesn't go by polls. Yet I don't feel remiss to view this group as among the worst of the worst, and think prudence and wisdom would counsel to avoid them completely, and warn those having escaped to shed any residual influence. Nothing of this group that I've seen stands up to scrutiny. The more you look, the worse it gets.

Another F1 group: The International Churches of Christ of Kip McKean

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2...rist-religion/

I view ICOC as pseudo-Christian mind control group. The death of Jesus on the cross is incidental, as is his resurrection 3 days later. Those are bit players in their passion play, to make disciples for their Hive. I met with them for a spell during college, and do they ever put pressure on you! They'll get you to doubt everything you ever knew. Like the LC, they isolate vulnerable college students and aren't done until they're remade in their image, and out seeking others to infect with their mind virus. They literally break your will and erase your mind.

Some blanch to put WL's group in with such clearly nefarious pseudo-Christian groups, but I ask, how many people has Marshall Applewhite destroyed lately? And how many has the LC? In the 90's I heard WL speak of 15 to 20 million adherents in the PRC, and 12 years later LSM spokesman Chris Wilde said there were none [left?]. God only knows what happened. Oh, but you see that's a confusion around labels, says DCP. Witness Lee talked of the "shouters", you see, but the "shouters" of Chris Wilde were different. Yes, there's good shouters and bad shouters. And of course LSM knows the difference but they can't talk anymore because of persecution. And so on.. wherever one looks there's dissimulation and prevarication, there's a shell game of words, and who knows where the pea's hiding. And what one sees, repeatedly, are classic mind control techniques. Which is why I listed all those groups earlier. The patterns are strong and fairly consistent.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is become unrecognizable in their hands. Initially I thought it was because they'd taken Paul's writings and supercharged Jesus, but now I realise it's because they took Paul's writings and eliminated Jesus. We got an abstract Processed Triune God, whom we masticate to become God in life and nature. And the story of the actual Jesus and the actual people who followed him in the gospels and Acts got effaced. It's an entirely different spirit at work in the narrative's formation and dissemination. It's a different gospel in the clearest sense of the word.

I saw a movie where the main character, a thief and a rogue, says to his accomplice, "The best scam is where the victim doesn't know they've been had". (~Paul Newman, The Sting.) Likewise, the most effective control is where the mark doesn't know they're being controlled. Their thoughts are no longer their own, and they've lost critical faculties, and are fully reflexive. "Controlled?!? We're not controlled! Hey everyone, let's sing stanza 4 again, 'Just be simple, don't be hardened, drop your concepts, eat that tree!'" Just be simple, indeed - the LC turns thinking people into simpletons. And that's the best of it. The worst is perhaps as bad as any Krazy Kult out there. But the Lord knows how many were crushed into the dirt, who were drained and tossed aside. The Lord knows each one.