The Psalms are the word of Christ

[aron]

In the NT, one of the major arguments among the Hebrews is on the idea of resurrection: the Sadducees don't believe in a physical resurrection, and challenge Jesus (Matt 22:23), whilst the Pharisees believe (Acts 23:8). I wrote this earlier:

Originally Posted by aron

Psalm 3 is a favourite, and this is why: Psalm 1 shows the way of the righteous man, Psalm 2 shows that righteous man enthroned as King of the nations (cf Deut 17:18-20), and Psalm 3 shows this King now facing rebellion. Just like with Genesis 1 through 3, God doesn't waste time but gets right to the point: the fall of humanity, their inability to obey God's commands (both directly and through a King) and its consequences.

But look what the deposed and exiled King does in Psalm 3, sequestered in a cave, surrounded by thousands who seek his life, betrayed by kinsmen and former aides (Absalom et al) - now, the King lies down and goes to sleep, confident that God can raise him again (v5). Jesus said, "I have the power to lay my life down, and the power to raise it up again." It tracks Psalm 3:5 almost perfectly.

In this case, the consequences of rebellion are much different than in Genesis 3. In this case, not only the Faithful King willingly lays down, and is raised, but in his rising he redeems the land and the people. "Just as by one man death appeared, so by one man's death, salvation appeared to all." (cf Rom 5:12-17; 1 Cor 15:20-22).

Psalm 3:5 "I lay down and slept; I woke again, for the LORD sustained me." (ESV) is a prelude to Jesus' "I have the power to lay my life down and the power to take it back up again."

Often in the Psalms, the declaration of faith is in God's saving power towards the righteous servant, or the servant's power to obey God and be rewarded. The most relevant example for the NT is Psalm 16, given by Peter on Pentecost (and by Paul in Acts 13). But Psalm 18 has very similar intimations - "He rescued me because He delighted in me", which along with Psalm 42 quote Jonah's prayer in the whale's belly. "All your waves and your billows were over me/I was in the heart of the sea". Jesus of course references Jonah's experience, possibly through Psalms as well. "All the things written concerning me must come to pass."

Psalm 18
3 I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.
4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.
5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
6 In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.
17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.
18 They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the Lord was my stay.
19 He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.

Psalm 42
5 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted in me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him for the help of his countenance.
6 O my God, my soul is cast down within me: therefore will I remember thee from the land of Jordan, and of the Hermonites, from the hill Mizar.
7 Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts: all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me.
8 Yet the Lord will command his lovingkindness in the day time, and in the night his song shall be with me, and my prayer unto the God of my life.

Jonah 2
1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.

Psalm 69
2 I have sunk into the miry depths, where there is no footing; I have drifted into deep waters, where the flood engulfs me.

14 Rescue me from the mire and do not let me sink; deliver me from my foes and out of the deep waters.
15 Do not let the floodwaters engulf me or the depths swallow me up or the pit close its mouth over me.

Psalm 40:2
He lifted me up from the pit of destruction, out of the miry clay; He set my feet upon a rock, and made my footsteps firm.

__________________________________________________ _____________________

It's a bit 'esoteric', as I'm deriving a theme from observed textual patterns in poetic imagery and its use in the NT, but the NT keeps referring to the OT prophecy as pertaining to Jesus' experiences, so I am as well. Obedience + Suffering + Death = Resurrection. Jonah shows a glimpse, and Jesus quotes that, but the Psalms provide the details.

The arranged structure of the 150 Psalms may point to resurrection. If so, Psalm 3 isn't randomly placed, but keys to the Righteous King's death and resurrection, after 3 days. It's not too hard to connect the dots once you see them. The 150 Psalms were structured by a Pharisee, or Pharisee-agreeing person. It's about resurrection from the dead, and the Psalms are the proof-text of the redactor.

Of course, this resurrection-believing (and promoting) arranger of the Psalms is just a hypothesis. But my question is whether the placement of Psalm 3, right after Psalms 1 and 2 (which scholars see as deliberately forming an opening pair for the collection) a random thing, or is it also deliberate? And if it's placed there deliberately, then why? I see verse 5 as the key to my hypothesis.

And behind it all lies another question: David supposedly penned several thousand Psalms, which along with the Sons of Korah, Moses, Solomon, etc, would have constituted a very large body of work. Obviously many were lost. Why was this collection of 150 put together thus? Is it random, or arranged with a larger narrative (resurrection [??]) in mind?

And did Jesus see that narrative and walk into it? When you read his plain and deliberate statements in the gospels it seems entirely possible.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

It's a bit 'esoteric', as I'm deriving a theme from observed textual patterns in poetic imagery and its use in the NT, but the NT keeps referring to the OT prophecy as pertaining to Jesus' experiences, so I am as well. Obedience + Suffering + Death = Resurrection. Jonah shows a glimpse, and Jesus quotes that, but the Psalms provide the details.

Just read through this and something is bugging me. I agree that Jesus made reference to Jonah concerning being in the belly of the whale for 3 days. But for Jonah, the suffering/death metaphor is hardly useful as part of some formula because he did not obey, then suffer, then die (literally or figuratively) then resurrect. Instead, he disobeyed and suffered for it. That the worst part of that suffering was 3 days in the belly of a great fish, followed by preaching to Nineveh, does provide something to refer back to as foreshadow or prophecy concerning Christ does not make Jonah's experience completely like that of Christ.

If we are to use Jonah as the example, then it would be something like Disobedience (leads to) Suffering and Death (leads to) Resurrection (leads to) Obedience. If we insert "Repentance" between Death and Resurrection, it might look more like our history.

I have always liked the approach of preaching Christ from all of the Bible. But that does not mean that everything is directly linkable to Christ. Christ referred to Jonah in the fish for 3 days as a sign relating to him. But the rest of the account says more about us and how God will get what he desires despite us and our desires. Still good stuff, and also says something about Christ. But I surely cannot get Obedience + . . . = Resurrection from this account. Maybe that is not what you were suggesting and I just mixed two different things together that you did not intend.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Christ referred to Jonah in the fish for 3 days as a sign relating to him. But the rest of the account says more about us and how God will get what he desires despite us and our desires. Still good stuff, and also says something about Christ. But I surely cannot get Obedience + . . . = Resurrection from this account. Maybe that is not what you were suggesting and I just mixed two different things together that you did not intend.

Jonah prayed in the belly of the whale, that God could save him. That was obedience. God saved him. Jesus referred to Jonah's experience as what he would pass through.

In Psalm 16, David said God would keep him from the flesh-eating corruption of death. Peter quoted this on Pentecost as portraying Christ.

My contribution was to note the "nautical theme" of many Psalms passages, which otherwise were very similar to the one quoted by Peter in Acts 2, and repeated by Paul in Acts 13. Even one of them used the same phraseology. "All your waves and billows have gone over me". Someone is copying, here. And they have the consistent theme of Righteous Obedience + Suffering + Death = Resurrection.

So I'm saying that the theme of "resurrection" looms larger in the Psalms than Psalm 16. And the 'formula' I gave is from the Psalms, not from Jonah. But otherwise, they have striking parallels. And Jesus referenced Jonah, and Peter referenced Psalms. Pretty interesting, to me.

[Boxjobox]

I'll write this, and really do not want to get into a big theological debate, but only offer my view: WL's thing was the processed triune god. Reading and singing the psalms does not bring one into a thought that God is a processed trinity- in fact, quite the opposite. It brings one more into " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". WL had to belittle the psalms and twist them and explain them in his own mixed up theology because they contradicted his money making product which he sold under the LSM brand.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

I'll write this, and really do not want to get into a big theological debate, but only offer my view: WL's thing was the processed triune god. Reading and singing the psalms does not bring one into a thought that God is a processed trinity- in fact, quite the opposite. It brings one more into " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". WL had to belittle the psalms and twist them and explain them in his own mixed up theology because they contradicted his money making product which he sold under the LSM brand.

Yes, indeed Boxjobox

I wanted to correct a post I had somewhere on these boards (forgot). The One Body Life event "What Does Ekklesia Look Like" is January 25th in Loomis near Sacramento, not this Saturday.

[Boxjobox]

Aron, sorry to disrupt your excellent post with my comment about WL. I have been enjoying your writings.
And thanks JJ for your note.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Aron, sorry to disrupt your excellent post with my comment about WL. I have been enjoying your writings.

I agree with your point. WL couldn't get the Psalms to deliver value to his "Processed God" metric so he essentially dismissed them. He's not the first Protestant or post-Protestant to do so, but the grounds are weak.

~David was a sinner. Why then did Peter cite David's declaration in Psalm 16 in speaking on Christ's resurrection? Or why cite, "I come to do Your will, Oh God" etc? ~Heb 10:7; cf Psa 40:8. If all are sinners, and nobody can do God's will, why does the NT cite the verse? Answer: it was about Jesus. Duh.

~Violence and antagonism. In Ephesians Paul said, "We fight, just not against flesh and blood." Jesus conquered sin and death and Hades, and we celebrate his victory. David had nothing on Jesus. Demons cried out in fear when he walked in. "Oh! Jesus! Nazarene! What do we have to do with you! Have you come to destroy us?!"

Of course a new era came with Jesus. He was indeed the new Moses, the new Law-giver. But the pictures and types that support this Jesus are there, including his suffering the indignity of death on our behalf, and his being raised to glory. His obedience led directly to the Father's intervention and rescue - the pangs of death could not hold him. To me this is the central narrative in the Psalms. Everything else hinges on this one thing.

But WL had his "we're being processed to be baby gods" thing. And by being so self-focused, he missed a lot of Christ that is portrayed there.