I need a church life that isn't led astray!!!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Ask and you will receive, seek and you will find (Matt 7:7). If there's no reply, keep asking (Lk 18:1-8). Why settle on "only God knows" implying we cannot if that's not scripture?

ByHisMercy is asking for an answer to a question regarding fellowship. She wouldn't be doing so if she didn't believe her concern couldn't be answered. It's true that perhaps neither you nor I can answer that question for her but God certainly can. Being content with "only God knows" is, to me, raising a white flag.

Everyone has to figure out who to meet with, and who to avoid. My experience among those who claimed certitude has made me shy of certitude. Perhaps too shy, I admit. I try to avoid the real crazies, try to be careful with the borderline cases, try to accept the ones who confess, no matter how much I may disagree with aspects of their confession.

Regarding "God only knows", my favourite author is Ephrem the Syrian:

“Whoever is capable of investigating becomes the container of what he investigates; a knowledge which is capable of containing the Omniscient is greater than Him, for it has proved capable of measuring the whole of Him. A person who investigates the Father and Son is thus greater than them! Far be it, then, and something anathema, that the Father and Son should be investigated, while dust and ashes exalts itself.”

But perhaps I am avoiding the truth. Yet truth if pursued is asymptotic. One must be content with what one has, and not go beyond what one is given.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

ByHisMercy is asking for an answer to a question regarding fellowship. She wouldn't be doing so if she didn't believe her concern couldn't be answered. It's true that perhaps neither you nor I can answer that question for her but God certainly can. Being content with "only God knows" is, to me, raising a white flag.

Originally Posted by aron

Everyone has to figure out who to meet with, and who to avoid. My experience among those who claimed certitude has made me shy of certitude.

I too well understand about being "shy of certitude." Certitude produces pride and the accompanying arrogance that is so debilitating to fellowship.

Perhaps another more difficult issue for us ex-LCers is our affliction with judgmentalism. Having been trained for a few decades to judge all things Christian, apart from the MOTA himself, plagues us when leaving the system. I freely admit to being a recovering judgaholic.

We have been indoctrinated to place insurmountable standards on our brothers and sisters in Christ. When we should be merciful and forgiving, we are criticizing. No assembly on earth can meet our standards! Instead of researching whether some internet apologist ever had issue with some past teacher related to a nearby church, perhaps it's better just to reduce our views of "church" to those around us, and love and serve them.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Instead of researching whether some internet apologist ever had issue with some past teacher related to a nearby church, perhaps it's better just to reduce our views of "church" to those around us, and love and serve them.

My certitude is that I've confessed Jesus as Lord and entered a faith journey. Others have theirs, some with more certitude involved than that.

I used to fellowship with JWs and LDS on the street, and try to share "my Christ" with them, but at some point just stopped. Not that they were beyond some proverbial pale, but simply that the Lord said, "If you see the other coming at you with 10,000 troops and you only have 5,000, just sue for peace and keep distant." Others may have profitable discourse with them. I don't. Doesn't mean much beyond that.

Just because Philip ran up to a certain chariot on the South Road out of Jerusalem, doesn't mean all other chariots were doomed to eternal perdition. He was limited by the HS. We all are.

The command was, "Love God and love your neighbour." The person at your job site may be a Muslim or a flaming atheist homosexual. Okay. No problem. But if we are talking "Christian fellowship" then we have to assess the particularities of the HS' guidance within us.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps another more difficult issue for us ex-LCers is our affliction with judgmentalism. Having been trained for a few decades to judge all things Christian, apart from the MOTA himself, plagues us when leaving the system. I freely admit to being a recovering judgaholic.

I suppose the point of my last post was that those that come out of oppressive groups should take care not to deviate and fall into other extremes, as many are inclined to do, but to rightly apply our faith moving forward.

In Aron's case and many other ex-LC'ers, the issue seemed to be that their "certitude" was dictated for them (along with many other things). But there is another way and it's not defaulting to relying on one's own understanding but to lean on the Lord completely and trust in His certitude. That certainty can be passed on to us through faith. Faith isn't some mystical living moment to moment in a constant unknowingness trusting things will eventually work themselves out. You can surely get answers and we should always be striving to involve God in our pursuit of that. Otherwise this type of faith is a faith of defeatism no matter how it appears. Even if you move mountains, without the active participation of God and His love in your life, your faith ultimately comes to nothing.

In your case of judgementalism, Ohio. The answer isn't to stop judging, as the world would tell you, but to judge righteously. (Jn 7:24).

In other cases, like complete devotion and zeal toward one ministry and one man. The solution isn't to disregard the idea of serving just one man and one ministry. We, as Christians, should be serving only one man and only one ministry with complete devotion and zeal. That is, it should all be pointed toward the man Christ Jesus and his heavenly kingdom alone.

The LC may have failed you in these regards but take care not to let your past experiences taint these important principles for you as you continue on in your walk with Christ.

To those that have left Jesus along with the Local Churches. I am sorry for what you've gone through and I pray for your healing. Your circumstances may have changed but Jesus still is and always will be the way, the truth, the life and the only way to eternity in heaven. Please trust in that. His love is the only love that can heal us and make us whole.

And to the others that seem to be stuck in limbo after leaving the LC's. The most important fellowship is between you and your God. Examine your heart, take time to build on this individually and when He's ready I trust He'll guide you into a new fellowship.

[Cal]

Read God's word, pray, fellowship, worship and serve.

Love God, love people. Without love, all the other stuff means nothing. What is love? It is caring for others enough to sacrifice for them. Ask God to teach you to love people the way he does. Be merciful. Receive the believers. Don't expect anyone or anything to be more perfect than you are (which is not close to perfect, BTW). If you do that you can enjoy meeting with just about anyone.

Keep it simple. Trust and obey. It's not complicated. It's the devil that complicates things.

[aron]

The topic is, if you are new in town, where to bring your family to fellowship with other believers? My point was that "to believe" 2,000 years after Jesus Christ is not so simple. Or, if it is simple, one has to pare away a lot of added "complications".

One of the complications of the past 2,000 years is the tendency of people, even Jesus-followers, to fool themselves into thinking they are something they are not. This can be seen in the gospels. The disciples wanted to know who was 'greatest', which is nothing more than the old "Alpha Dog" debate that surfaces on every playground, regardless of culture, among 10-year-olds.

My take home lesson is this: because of sin, one cannot simply do a Lebron James vs Michael Jordan comparison. It doesn't matter how many books you have written or churches you have founded. Because of sin, any tendency to think in terms of 'greatest' and 'least' is going to get hopelessly corrupted.

The only safe position is to be the 'least', and let the Lord of the feast call you higher in due season.

This is not to say we should not do 'works', on the contrary. Faith without works is vanity. You are not going to sit in a chair, doing nothing, and "absorb God" and "become God in life and nature", because that's the deluded "hearers of the word" position - it's only "doers of the Word" that receive the reward at the end of the race. But again, your works are nothing, of themselves... only God, at the Bema, will say what is what. Just take the least place, and labor in love on one another.

Many in the LC do just that, but there is a great, big, stinking carcass in the assembly and that is the Deputy God principle. Jesus alone is Deputy God. Only Jesus has passed the veil. The rest should take Jesus' advice and be nothing.

Of course there are prophets, and evangelists and shepherds and teachers. Some are able to give a revelation or a tongue or a psalm, others give an encouragement or an interpretation. Some are (apparently) one-talented, others two- or five-talented. But the fire will test everything. Let it go.

The Minister (or ministry) of the age is the "greatest" pile of doo-doo. Run away from such notions. Flee.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Don't believe me...just listen to the president of the Living Stream Ministry, Mr Benson Phillips:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)

This speaker has not learned the Spiritual ABCs of life on this planet. Because of sin, nobody can claim to be a great spiritual person on this earth. Only God will reveal such things, in due time. If you use such words you are far from the mark. Jesus was made both Lord and Christ after the cross, not before it. Do you think, if the sinless Jesus had to pass through such a fire, that we can avoid it, and claim greatness while in the flesh of sin? Have we learned nothing from scripture? They tried to call Jesus "good" - he had none of it. Should any of us? Who among us Christian believers is a "great spiritual person on the earth"?

If you learn such basic lessons, you'll be able to have mutually profitable fellowship with believers near you. You'll be built up with others, and will see them built up with you. What a blessing!

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Because of sin, nobody can claim to be a great spiritual person on this earth. Only God will reveal such things, in due time. If you use such words you are far from the mark. Jesus was made both Lord and Christ after the cross, not before it. Do you think, if the sinless Jesus had to pass through such a fire, that we can avoid it, and claim greatness while in the flesh of sin?

Have we learned nothing from scripture? They tried to call Jesus "good" - he had none of it. Should any of us? Who among us Christian believers is a "great spiritual person on the earth"? If you learn such basic lessons, you'll be able to have mutually profitable fellowship with believers near you. You'll be built up with others, and will see them built up with you. What a blessing!

I’d like to develop this idea as pertaining to finding fellowship among believers in your geographic area, and for that matter holding the gospel out to unbelievers.

The main issue the Bible deals with is sin. Because of sin, humanity was separated from God, with all that separation entails: pain, fear, loneliness, purposelessness, alienation, shame, anger, frustration, failure (mistakes), sickness and death. This issue is introduced in the first few chapters of Genesis and isn’t really resolved until the last few chapters of Revelation. In between, it's a constant theme.

Now, everything in the NT narrative hinges on the claim of the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead on the third day. If Jesus wasn't raised, then his death was merely the death of a good and holy man, a martyr of sorts. Like David, his grave remains among us. Jesus taught, “Love your neighbor”, then he died... he did good works, healing and feeding and caring, then he died. Game over. If there's no resurrection of Jesus, the story ends there.

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, then his blood does not cleanse us from sin. If he didn’t rise from the dead, then he's not Lord and Christ, but merely another good person who died for a cause. (There have been many, unfortunately.) If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, then he was not made sin on our behalf, and our sin remains.

Now, looking at the NT in this light, I want to examine the idea of a “Great Spiritual Person on the Earth” (GSPOTE) as put forth in the LSM, as seen by the quote in the previous post (#53). To me, Jesus’ answer was, Don’t claim to be GSPOTE, rather be the least of all. Because of sin, nobody can claim greatness while on earth. Because of sin, it's prudent instead to take the least place. And don’t get misled by people who claim to be GSPOTE, because they misunderstand the gospel and will lead you astray. People like that will distort the fellowship of the assembly (a good current example may be the New Apostolic Reformation).

Luke 14 (KJV)

8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;

9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.

10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Take byHismercy facing the idea of “total depravity” or “determinism” or however one puts it, as found in the Reformed Church in his town. Actually I think the idea has a lot to recommend it, and I understand its attraction (I also understand the objections of byHismercy on this thread). But ultimately if one accepts it as “truth” then one is tacitly or overtly accepting John Calvin (or whomever) as a GSPOTE who defines “truth” in our assembly. I don’t think it’s safe to call Luther or Calvin or Billy Graham or Mother Theresa or WL or WN or anyone a GSPOTE. Let the Master do all that at the Bema.

Now if you go to a local assembly and they hold some derived “truth” that they insist on as a precondition and precursor of fellowship, your ability to fellowship will be circumscribed. They have been distorted by a self-proclaimed GSPOTE, and the opinions of that person are now “truth”. It doesn’t matter if it is Ellen White or Mary Baker Eddy or John Nelson Darby or Watchman Nee, if some person’s teachings have determined the understanding of “reality” or “truth” in that assembly then you will have to deal with that.

Because of sin, nobody should make presumptions of themselves or their place. Clearly WN and WL did, and it effectively ruined their ministries, and stumbled many. May we learn the lessons and go on: confess the faith delivered once to all, fight the good fight, serve the Master by helping others, and trust God's mercy and love. At the end, it is all His. It is God's love that sent Jesus, and it His mercy that we can look homeward, with hope. God is Love, and Jesus is the Way.

Now, I can still have fellowship with other believers. But if they insist on "truths" and my holding them as a basis of fellowship, then my ability to fellowship there will be circumscribed. Think, e.g., LC "local ground" and "one minister per age" culminating with Witness Lee saying, "If you aren't 100% for this ministry get out. If you're only 99% for this ministry get out". What kind of fellowship can one have in that assembly? Pretty much none. They have a "truth" that's subsumed the gospel of the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

[aron]

I'd like to re-frame my argument from post #54.

There actually are "great spiritual persons". There is to be a "kingdom reward". There will indeed be rulers over ten cities, and rulers over five. There are prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers.

But because of sin, nobody should presume anything.

Jesus was a "good teacher", but because of sin he would not touch it (Mark 10:17,18). He was the Messiah, but rather than with words he showed it with good works (John 10:38; 14:11) - he was Master but did the works of a servant(John 13:13,14). And then the Father raised him to glory.

We can all follow this path, this Way. There is no need of presumption, and because of sin we should avoid hasty claims (1 Tim 5:22). Watchman Nee cribbing JPL and publishing it under his name at age 24 - that was a hasty claim to spiritual greatness, and many bought it. But we learn from our mistakes, and not institutionalize them.