Guru Papers

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This will be an interesting shift to watch here over the next period of time. As far as the "speaking blendeds" I believe the pool is smaller as several of them have been afflicted in their physical health to the point where they cannot give long messages anymore, and the ones still well enough just speak more messages instead to compensate. I am only aware in recent times of one addition to the typical group of brothers who speak messages. I just can't imagine there are many clamoring to take on that role, but stranger things have happened.

Who will lead them on, indeed? What on earth will be the glue that holds them together?

I think it's some degree of the nature of being a Guru, or Deputy God as LC called it, that only one person in the room can exhibit charisma, and the rest must devote themselves to promoting the Guru. This particular brand probably was helped by being Asian in parent culture, in which absolute deference to the Maximum Leader had a built-in expectation.

But it brings another problem - what of the next generation? Once the Guru is gone, then the Bureaucrats take over, who manage the organisation. Their authority is in direct relation to former associations with greatness. I can expect that at some point, whether the LC expands or diminishes, there will be one or two old-timers who will stand at the dais and say, "I was there with Brother Lee", and their association will guarantee them an audience. But how big of an audience if they have no native charisma? Clearly Nee and Lee had it. Once they're gone only Bureaucrats are left. Not a particularly great draw. And then more time passes, and it's left to the Caretakers of the memory of the Bureaucrats of their Guru's Charisma. Even less compelling.

But nobody is allowed Charisma, because that would be "ambition", that would be "drawing others after oneself". Only the Guru could do that without suspicion, without the taint of ambition. I'll never forget the first meeting when Brother Lee passed: "The age of Spiritual Giants is over, it is now the age of Small Potatoes". It was too clear: only the Guru was allowed greatness.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I think it's some degree of the nature of being a Guru, or Deputy God as LC called it, that only one person in the room can exhibit charisma, and the rest must devote themselves to promoting the Guru.

Actually, those others with charisma were perceived as rivals and excommunicated.

Those without charisma then grabbed an office they had no ability to fill.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Actually, those others with charisma were perceived as rivals and excommunicated.

Those without charisma then grabbed an office they had no ability to fill.

This points to something I've been appreciating recently, and noting on this forum. I've been repeatedly bringing up the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, because to me this establishes his "charisma",* or status, on a permanent basis. Jesus got crowds of followers initially because of his works and the transformative power of his teachings. His words brought light to what had been dark, and obscure, and uncertain. Suddenly, a great light shined. Suddenly, there was a bona fide Great Person, of whom it was said "his sandals I'm not worthy to untie". And the resurrection sealed all this special-ness, and made it permanent, unchangeable forever, "in this age and in the ages to come" (Eph 1:20,21; 2:7).

I note this because the guru-builders will use Jesus as a stepping-stone to their own claim to charisma. They point to the continuation of great leaders, and prophets... the lineage of charisma supposedly runs thus: Moses, Jesus, Peter, Paul, Luther, Darby, Nee, Lee [Chu, Dong...]… with others, it might be Moses, then Jesus, then Joseph Smith, then Brigham Young. Or, Moses, then Jesus, then Mohammed. Or, Moses then Jesus then Mary Baker Eddy, or then Elisabeth Claire Prophet, or Sun Myung Moon or Haile Selassie whomever the Last Prophet is deemed to be, the Last Holder of Charisma who ushers in the New Age..

My point is that Jesus stands alone. He stands above the flock because God raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand, and gave him a name above every name, both in this age and that which is to come. Witness Lee and Mary Baker Eddy and Brigham Young got mausoleums and reflecting pools and fountains. Jesus, in resurrection, walks in the midst of the seven golden lamp stands. He alone got the charisma, the Christ-hood. The rest of us have to wait for the Bema, and should presume nothing until that time, other than "I am the least of all."

Now it should be noted that Peter had 'charism' by associating with and leading the promotion of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. Thousands gathered and were saved. Cripples and sick people laid in Peter's way that his shadow might pass over them. But NT writers Luke and Paul take pains to show that Peter (and James) do not have some permanent Untouchable status. And Peter even affirms this, and his connection with Jesus the Nazarene, by saying that leaders should lead by humility, service, and love, not by lording over the flock. Jesus alone has elevated status. Jesus alone is Lord. Everyone else has to wait for the Bema. Jesus alone has passed the veil. Anyone else who makes such presumptions, while yet in the flesh of sin, is deluded and is in danger of leading astray the elect.

If people say that I'm a deluded follower of Jesus I say, Yes, Amen. And I receive and join with the other deluded ones. Praise the Lord! But I name no other, as scripture says there's no other name given whereby we may be saved.

*Here I define 'charisma' in the religious sense, as in a divinely conferred status, authority, and power. Jesus by definition (Messiah, Christ, Lord, High Priest, King, Saviour) had all of this in spades.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Jesus got crowds of followers initially because of his works and the transformative power of his teachings. His words brought light to what had been dark, and obscure, and uncertain. Suddenly, a great light shined. Suddenly, there was a bona fide Great Person, of whom it was said "his sandals I'm not worthy to untie". And the resurrection sealed all this special-ness, and made it permanent, unchangeable forever, "in this age and in the ages to come" (Eph 1:20,21; 2:7).

I note this because the guru-builders will use Jesus as a stepping-stone to their own claim to charisma.

My point is that Jesus stands alone.

As further confirmation of aron's points here, remember what happened on the mountain, with Jesus, Moses, and Elijah? (Matthew 17)

[Weighingin]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As further confirmation of aron's points here, remember what happened on the mountain, with Jesus, Moses, and Elijah? (Matthew 17)

I recall how WL would talk about the principle of incarnation using where Paul said not I but the Lord and so on. So I thought that must apply to his speaking too. This was added to what we had been taught about Noah, deputy authority, questioning the MOTA is in the principle of questioning Moses and other teachings in which I thought I had the realization that to disagree was to disagree with God Himself.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

I recall how WL would talk about the principle of incarnation using where Paul said not I but the Lord and so on. So I thought that must apply to his speaking too. This was added to what we had been taught about Noah, deputy authority, questioning the MOTA is in the principle of questioning Moses and other teachings in which I thought I had the realization that to disagree was to disagree with God Himself.

As I have often mentioned, Moses never was a type of the NT ministers, other than Christ Himself. In this regard Moses was absolutely unique.

Moses clearly stated that, "God will raise up a prophet from your midst like unto me." (Deut. 18.15-19)

Paul then makes it plainly clear that Jesus will build God's spiritual House. (Heb. 3.1-6) This corresponds with, "I will build My church." (Matt 16.18)

Thus to demand some accountability from some self-assumed MOTA, who is blatantly violating God's law, can never be applied to "questioning Moses."

It is dangerous, however, to dishonor our Heavenly "Moses" by questioning the authority of Jesus Christ and His word.

[Weighingin]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As I have often mentioned, Moses never was a type of the NT ministers, other than Christ Himself. In this regard Moses was absolutely unique.

Moses clearly stated that, "God will raise up a prophet from your midst like unto me." (Deut. 18.15-19)

Paul then makes it plainly clear that Jesus will build God's spiritual House. (Heb. 3.1-6) This corresponds with, "I will build My church." (Matt 16.18)

Thus to demand some accountability from some self-assumed MOTA, who is blatantly violating God's law, can never be applied to "questioning Moses."

It is dangerous, however, to dishonor our Heavenly "Moses" by questioning the authority of Jesus Christ and His word.

Yes, I've been trying to understand how I had gotten confused by these teachings when the word has been in front of me all of these years.
As you mentioned in Matt 17, "Hear Him." That's when Moses and Elijah were standing right next to Christ. Another contrast was John 17, law came through Moses, grace and reality through Jesus Christ.
Even though Moses representing God or being His deputy authority wasn't a wrong teaching, I've been trying to see how I misnderstood For many years that it applied to WL, the MOTA, and the NT age.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

It brings another problem - what of the next generation? Once the Guru is gone, then the Bureaucrats take over, who manage the organisation... Clearly Nee and Lee had it. Once they're gone only Bureaucrats are left. Not a particularly great draw... But nobody is allowed Charisma, because that would be "ambition", that would be "drawing others after oneself". Only the Guru could do that without suspicion, without the taint of ambition.

The Guru is allowed Charisma, even trades in it, but brooks no peers, who'd be deemed "ambitious" and "rebellious" and so forth. But when the Guru's gone where's the person that holds it all together? Again, "Christ, only Christ" is the LC refrain, but it's the Christ in a set of books. It's a conceptual Christ - the Body-Christ. The Ministry-Christ. The Processed-Christ. Mere concepts that when examined critically show the strains of inconsistency. The Bureaucrats try to prop up the teachings but the Charisma is a memory, fading.

Now here's Deuteronomy 33:2 -
“The LORD came from Sinai,
And dawned on them from Seir;
He shone forth from Mount Paran,
And He came from among ten thousand holy ones;
At His right hand was a flaming fire, a law, for them.” (AMP)

The LORD "dawned" and "shone forth". At His right hand was the Word as flaming fire. Even the "ten thousand holy ones" has strong association of light. "The Son of Man will come with the glory of the Father and the glory of the holy angels". There is the repetitive presentation of out-spilling divine light, in sheer transcendence such that Moses came down glowing.

Now, what Guru can compete with that? John said, "We beheld his glory" - do you think John held up Paul as MOTA, as "today's Moses", after that sight? Or do you think Paul ever held himself thus, versus the twelve? Jesus held all Charisma. He is our Lord and there is no other.

In the way John presents Jesus in the first chapter of the fourth gospel, as the Logos Light of God, we may sense why the Baptist said he wasn't worthy to touch his shoe (v. 27). When we see the incomparable greatness of his being, we're saved - saved from dreaming of our own greatness, and from submitting our will to the demands of a Guru (and there are many out there, clamoring for our attention and our souls). The Guru says that subsuming our souls into his will bring salvation. That only works with Jesus.