The Psalms are the word of Christ

[VoiceInWilderness]

Originally Posted by awareness

While the Spirit is still speaking, I too would like to know the source(s) of these details. Ruth Lee & Peace Wang were early founding sisters in the Nee movement. I might be wrong, but I don't remember these details in Lily Hsu's book, nor in Kinnear's Against the Tide.

Brother Voice must have different sources, or I missed it in my readings. Maybe he'll share them, or school me.

It is in Lily Hsu's book, My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church
which Awareness told me about.
https://www.amazon.com/My-Unforgetta...table+memories

The book is detailed and well corroborated.

At the end of the pdf version, there are links to appendices. Near the end of the list is "Li Yuanru and Wang Peizhen" (who are Ruth Lee and Peace Wang). That was the saddest part of the whole book.

[aron]

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

At the end of the pdf version [of Lily Hsu's book] there are links to appendices. Near the end of the list is "Li Yuanru and Wang Peizhen" (who are Ruth Lee and Peace Wang). That was the saddest part of the whole book.

I remember reading about Ruth Lee from several sources, including a prominent spot in WL's "The Seer of the Divine Revelation". Don't remember that part. Thanks for bringing it up.

Originally Posted by Wright Doyle

For a variety of reasons, including the anti-Western movement of the 1920s, many Chinese Christian leaders were seeking ways to form indigenous churches that would be free from Western missionary control. Having moved to the International Settlement in Shanghai in 1926, Ni constituted in 1932 a group of “apostolic” co-workers that would lead what became the Little Flock Movement: Wang Peizhen (Peace Wang) and Li Yuanru (Ruth Lee), with Ni himself as supreme. They soon grew from a small household gathering to a network of local churches.

Amazing, to consider the toll of human lives that followed in the wake of WN & WL. From those who lost faith when Nee was exposed, to the "storms" of WL in Taiwan & U.S.A, the Krazy Kults that sprung up in the PRC, the "Great Rebellion" of TC & DYL, Daystar, Philip Lee, Max Rappoport, John Ingalls. . . add it up. It's a lot.

Then contrast to, say, Leland Wang, another Margaret Barber disciple, who co-founded the Church in Shanghai in his living room and was later called the "Chinese Billy Graham". How big was the human toll after him?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

It is in Lily Hsu's book, My Unforgettable Memories:Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church
which Awareness told me about.
https://www.amazon.com/My-Unforgetta...table+memories

The book is detailed and well corroborated.

At the end of the pdf version, there are links to appendices. Near the end of the list is "Li Yuanru and Wang Peizhen" (who are Ruth Lee and Peace Wang). That was the saddest part of the whole book.

Thanks Steve. Truth be told, if I hadn't already lost faith in Nee, Lily Hsu's book would have turned me into an atheist.

I'm still dumbfounded that, a man on the one side can be a powerful spiritual minister and leader, and then on the other side be, a man of the flesh. David does come to mind. Still, both had to pay for it.

I remember some time ago coming across Lee admitting that he did much of his ministry with the natural life. So if we follow them, just remember that : the system you are giving all your life to is very much of the natural man. We, and they today, made/make more of Nee and Lee than they deserve/deserved, or could live up to ... except as personality cult leaders ... that had to come from their natural man.

Maybe the reason Lee saw the natural man in scripture is cuz he was looking thru his own natural man glasses.

I don't know. But I agree. When I look at scripture thru my natural man, I see lots of natural man stuff in it.

[VoiceInWilderness]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks Steve. Truth be told, if I hadn't already lost faith in Nee, Lily Hsu's book would have turned me into an atheist.

Thank you for your honesty. That is apparently what happened to Ruth Lee, and she influenced Peace Wang.

WL said that there were only 3 people who were absolutely one with WN: himself, Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. Lily Hsu's book bears that out.
This shows how destructive it is to follow a man absolutely like that.

What would have been a healthy reaction on their part to the exposing of WN would have been to realize that they were wrong to follow a man to that extent. They could have recalled the past when they started the local church with WN and were able to fellowship honestly and to disagree with him.

WN could have escaped to Taiwan, but chose to stay and suffer immensely.

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm still dumbfounded that, a man on the one side can be a powerful spiritual minister and leader, and then on the other side be, a man of the flesh. David does come to mind. Still, both had to pay for it.

I don't understand that either. I can only process what I saw with WL.
There was great blessing on the local church in the beginning, at least up to 1977, and I think up to 1988. Don Rutledge records it well. WL was not the center of the church before 1977, at least to us in Cleveland, and we felt we were one with all Christians, including those with different views than us.
When WL excommunicated all the ex-pastors and missionaries in the churches in 1988, the blessing had ended. We could not get any non-Chinese to join the church and stay. WL could still sometimes give a good message based on what the Lord had already given him, but the Lord didn't give him anything more. The new revelations WL saw after that were all destructive, as far as I know.

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember some time ago coming across Lee admitting that he did much of his ministry with the natural life.

I don't remember that, but I commend him for that because it is honest.
That statement was probably pre 1977, or at least pre 1984.

Originally Posted by awareness

So if we follow them, just remember that : the system you are giving all your life to is very much of the natural man.

Giving your life to a system is wrong, whether it is of the natural man or spiritual man.
I had done that until we had a church split in 2007 over the "one publication" edict. I had thought we were better than other Christians because I thought we were more dedicated to oneness, (at the expense of truth and honesty) and then we had a church spilt over something that other Christians would have fellowshipped about and handled maturely and been reconciled. We had an ex-pastor meeting with us then, and he said that he had seen many church splits, but never one that was so avoidable as this. And we had prided ourselves on Oneness. That told me that we were on the wrong road. The right road was what we had been on before WL became the center of the church - following Christ, the Spirit, the Bible and our spirit.

Originally Posted by awareness

We, and they today, made/make more of Nee and Lee than they deserve/deserved, or could live up to ... except as personality cult leaders ... that had to come from their natural man.

That is a terrible place to be in.
KJV 1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe the reason Lee saw the natural man in scripture is cuz he was looking thru his own natural man glasses.

I don't know. But I agree. When I look at scripture thru my natural man, I see lots of natural man stuff in it.

We do project our faults onto others and also onto the Bible.
I think the "natural man" teaching by WL was off and even more off how it was distorted in testimonies.
"natural" is "soulish". Adam became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils. So he had a soulish or "natural" body before the fall. That is Adam had a body, soul and spirit, but he was dominated by the soul.
We human beings need to live by both our soul and our spirit, and we are going to be dominated by our soul. If we reject our spirit and live only by the soul, we cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. But until we receive spiritual bodies, we are still living souls in this age, and our dominant part is our soul. That is what it means that Adam became a living soul. To reject our soul as "natural" is to reject what it means to be a human being.

[Weighingin]

It took me over 30 years to realize fully that following the ministry of LSM/Lee was not the same as following God. I thought my experiences of Christ, etc had to come from that ministry. The Lord is merciful and enlightening, but it seems He leaves it to us to seek how to be with Him.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

It took me over 30 years to realize fully that following the ministry of LSM/Lee was not the same as following God. I thought my experiences of Christ, etc had to come from that ministry. The Lord is merciful and enlightening, but it seems He leaves it to us to seek how to be with Him.

MeToo, not to be trite.

After 30 years, I also was confronted with 2 choices, to be of Lee, or to be of Chu. Thus, something so idiotic and Romish as the One Publication Bull was used by the Lord to expose where we really were. We had become completely leavened, and needed a good purging.

[Weighingin]

The turmoil that resulted from who followed Lee more faithfully, BL Bros or Titus, with the "quarantine", just hurt and divided the saints. The history of the dreaded "Christianity" repeats itself. I only saw this recently. It actually has been over 40 years.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

The turmoil that resulted from who followed Lee more faithfully, BL Bros or Titus, with the "quarantine", just hurt and divided the saints. The history of the dreaded "Christianity" repeats itself. I only saw this recently. It actually has been over 40 years.

Weighingin, we probably should restrict our comments here to the thread topic about Psalms.

Would you consider opening your own thread on the Introductions sub-forum? You could introduce certain LC issues most disturbing to you.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Thank you for your honesty. That is apparently what happened to Ruth Lee, and she influenced Peace Wang.

I've seen it happen for others too brother. One that comes immediately to mind is a sister I've known since before the LC. I brought her and her then boyfriend in. They stayed in 5 years after I left. The same thing happened to them that happened to me : over loyalty to Christ over Lee.

After they left, she dropped it all ; everything religious ; the Bible ; Jesus : God ; the whole shebang, if you will. Her husband became an alcoholic. My dearest friend today, going back to Kangas and Detroit, is now a Hindu. And a friend going back to 2nd grade, who once was an elder, is now a Native American Shaman. All of these are still fine people. They are caring, loving, giving, and honest, human beings. I love them. Not only am I not able to turn my love for them off, I don't want to.

Originally Posted by Voice

WL said that there were only 3 people who were absolutely one with WN: himself, Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. Lily Hsu's book bears that out.
This shows how destructive it is to follow a man absolutely like that.

The need to follow a man is a need of the flesh.

Originally Posted by Voice

What would have been a healthy reaction on their part to the exposing of WN would have been to realize that they were wrong to follow a man to that extent. They could have recalled the past when they started the local church with WN and were able to fellowship honestly and to disagree with him.

I never knew Lee to have a Q & A after his speakings.

Originally Posted by Voice

WN could have escaped to Taiwan, but chose to stay and suffer immensely.

He probably felt he deserved it.

Originally Posted by Voice

I don't understand that either. I can only process what I saw with WL.

Yet we didn't know Nee or Lee

Originally Posted by Voice

I don't remember that, but I commend him for that because it is honest. That statement was probably pre 1977, or at least pre 1984.

1994

Originally Posted by Voice

Giving your life to a system is wrong, whether it is of the natural man or spiritual man.

Up until around 1977 I didn't feel I was giving myself to a system, or to following a man. I had "The Vision." The vision was that the local church was the spearhead of God's present move on the earth. I was in God's eternal purpose ... not a system.

Originally Posted by Voice

I had done that until we had a church split in 2007 over the "one publication" edict. I had thought we were better than other Christians because I thought we were more dedicated to oneness, (at the expense of truth and honesty) and then we had a church spilt over something that other Christians would have fellowshipped about and handled maturely and been reconciled. We had an ex-pastor meeting with us then, and he said that he had seen many church splits,

I grew up in the Southern Baptist church, and we moved a lot ; Detroit, Miami, Kentucky, and back to Detroit. With each move my mother carefully found just the right conservative Southern Baptist church. And in every case things were fine for awhile, and then some minor disagreement would crop up, then the love they shared turned to harsh disagreement, that led to a split with much animosity. I heard it told that that was why the Southern Baptist churches grew. It looked like a cancer to me.

Originally Posted by Voice

but never one that was so avoidable as this. And we had prided ourselves on Oneness. That told me that we were on the wrong road. The right road was what we had been on before WL became the center of the church - following Christ, the Spirit, the Bible and our spirit.

I got pushed out for saying that.

Originally Posted by Voice

That is a terrible place to be in.
KJV 1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

So 20 years after Pentecost Paul was already encountering division by following men. Now look at Christianity. I don't know, I don't have the stats, but it sure looks to me that Christianity is the most divided religion on the earth.

But Lee's solution was to become the center of oneness.

Originally Posted by Voice

We do project our faults onto others and also onto the Bible.
I think the "natural man" teaching by WL was off and even more off how it was distorted in testimonies.
"natural" is "soulish". Adam became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils. So he had a soulish or "natural" body before the fall. That is Adam had a body, soul and spirit, but he was dominated by the soul.
We human beings need to live by both our soul and our spirit, and we are going to be dominated by our soul. If we reject our spirit and live only by the soul, we cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. But until we receive spiritual bodies, we are still living souls in this age, and our dominant part is our soul. That is what it means that Adam became a living soul. To reject our soul as "natural" is to reject what it means to be a human being.

At first I was mesmerized by the three circles. It told me in three's how I was made up ; a trinity.

But it's not true. We are not three separate compartments. The body is not separate from the soul and the spirit. The soul is not separate from the body and the spirit, and the spirit is not separate from the body and the soul. Why?

Because just like the trinity, the three are one. Our entire being is all body, soul (mind), and spirit ; one hundred percent each all in one. And they all inform my decision making (done in my soul methinks). The body is the clear winner. We tend to that the most every day. It speaks the loudest. In fact, we desperately need the soul and the spirit to pull back hard on its reins. Still, when ya gotta go ya gotta go ; no need for three confirmations from the spirit. When we're hungry we eat. When we need sleep we sleep. The needs of the body rule.

But I ramble. Thanks Steve for your great response.

I wasn't there for Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. I don't know what they went thru. I don't know why they became atheists. Maybe just to fit in with the atheist authorities ... I don't know. China is still 90% atheist. Many of them are so atheist that they don't even know that they are atheist's. They know nothing of religion of any sort ... even the atheist religion.

I don't know brother Voice. This hits close to home for me. You recently told me that I've lost my salvation. You don't know the half of it brother. Many years ago I once went around for a year or so saying that, God is deaf, dumb, and mute. Why? Because my conversations with Him were a monologue, as in, I did all the talking. If I had a life long friend, and I did all the talking, I would eventually conclude that he, or she, was deaf dumb and mute.

So I kind of understand Ruth Lee and Peace Wang.

I guess I've said enough for now.

[VoiceInWilderness]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't know brother Voice. This hits close to home for me. You recently told me that I've lost my salvation. You don't know the half of it brother. Many years ago I once went around for a year or so saying that, God is deaf, dumb, and mute. Why? Because my conversations with Him were a monologue, as in, I did all the talking. If I had a life long friend, and I did all the talking, I would eventually conclude that he, or she, was deaf dumb and mute.

So I kind of understand Ruth Lee and Peace Wang.

I guess I've said enough for now.

Thanks Awareness, that was a good and thoughtful answer.

(My uncle just passed away peacefully yesterday, at 100 years old, so I'm in Baltimore for the funeral today.)

God's speaking to us is not like I am speaking to you and you to me.

When the Lord resurrected, He appeared to the disciples and told them that He was going before them to a certain mountain in Galilee.
Peter and the disciples go to that mountain, and guess what? - No Jesus. They waited probably for days, and no Jesus. So Peter, offended that Jesus did not keep His word, says, I'm going fishing. And you know the story of the Lord's appearing to them after they spent all night fishing and caught nothing.
The Lord had kept His word: He was there before them on the mountain in Galilee, but He was invisible, and seemingly not speaking. In this way, after His resurrection, the Lord spent 40 days with them, appearing and disappearing, training them to live by His invisible presence and still small voice. (This was one of the many great teachings of WL. I don't know if he got it from someone else, but that doesn't matter to me.)

Call to mind in your past when you had the Lord's speaking. Here are some examples that come to my mind of how the Lord spoke to me in various ways.

1. I could not tell if Jesus was God or not. I had just come to the church in Cleveland, and bros showed me verses showing that Jesus was God, esp. Isa 9:6, but I didn't feel they could explain other verses that implied that Jesus was not God. A bro invited me over for dinner, and after dinner we pray-read John 14. 2 bros were reading and shouting and rejoicing, and I felt, "This is not for me". Then a bro said to me, "Steve, your spirit's connected to your mouth." He was pointing for me to read v8 where Philip tells the Lord to show us the Father. For some reason I said, "Oh, since my spirit's connected to my mouth, I'll start with v1", not knowing what I was saying. When I spoke v1 "Let not your heart be troubled", I felt that the Lord was speaking the verse to me in my heart. My heart was very troubled because I felt that I could not be saved because I could not know if Jesus was God. Instantly my heart was not troubled, but a joy that I had never felt before rose up in my heart instead. Then I continued and the Lord kept speaking in my heart, "You believe in God, believe also in Me." I started laughing. It was so simple. I believe in God, believe also in Jesus. I understood, How could I believe in Him if He were not God. Then I continued, "In My Father's house are many abodes. If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." I jumped up and we all started dancing around the house. On my way driving home, I was rubbing my heart, it felt so good. I told one of my frat bros, "What I experienced today was worth a whole lifetime of suffering."

2. I had just been saved and baptized for about 1 month. 4 of us had a daily evening prayer meeting at the fraternity house that I lived at. One of the bros started to become worldly, I thought. I was in a quandary how to help him. While walking quickly between classes, I thought, Eureka! I'll pray about it! When I got home to my frat room, I shut the door and prayed how to help this bro. Nothing from the Lord. So I said, Lord, here are 3 ways: I could rebuke him, or I could not say anything but be an example to him, or I could rebuke him in love. No answer. So I said, Lord, I feel the best about rebuking him in love, so that's what I'll do. And I heard a sound like a lion's roar. I jumped off my bed, and got down on my knees, and said, "What did you say, Lord?" I heard, "You change My words." And then, "Trust in Me, I will give you life." That was the only time I heard the Lord's voice externally.

3. I was typing my computer program on a keypunch. The computer room proctor was a little Jewish boy like me. I was praying for him to be saved, while I was keypunching. A big unkempt motorcycle gangster walked into the computer room smoking a cigarette. As the motorcycle guy was organizing his punch cards, the little proctor walked over, grabbed his arm and crushed out the cigarette, saying, No smoking allowed!, and then sat back down at his desk.
The motorcycle guy was enraged. He turned red and started charging at the proctor yelling, I'll teach you! I said, "Lord! What should I do?" No answer. So I just jumped up and got in the motorcycle guy's face, having no idea what to say. Then when I looked at the guy's face I knew exactly what to say. I recognized that I had preached the gospel to this guy before and he had told me he was a Christian. I yelled, "You're a Christian! What are you doing!?" He was dumbfounded and didn't know what to say. We became good friends, and he became a solid Christian.

4. I was reviewing a pile of about 30 resumes to narrow down to 5 people to interview. I saw one was an Arab name, and tossed it to the reject pile. Then the verse came to me, "You shall not despise an Egyptian because you sojourned in his land." I said, Wow, and I picked up the resume, and looked, and the guy was an Egyptian. I read over the resume again, and it was as good as the others on the "keep" pile. We hired him. He saved one of my projects that was failing which became a very successful project. He was one of the first immigrants that my company sponsored for a green card.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

(My uncle just passed away peacefully yesterday, at 100 years old, so I'm in Baltimore for the funeral today.)

Sorry to hear that. Hope he lived a full life.

Originally Posted by Voice

God's speaking to us is not like I am speaking to you and you to me.

I eventually learned that. But still. The Bible depicts God as audibly speaking ; like at Jesus' baptism. He's certainly couldn't be considered deaf, dumb, and mute, back then. He even spoke thru a burning bush ... and ... let's not forget, an ass. Don't I rate at least that? I feel like one at times.

Bro Voice, I really enjoyed your examples of the Lord speaking to you. And I noticed that God once spoke to you "externally." You obviously rate better than I. But didn't God have to speak audibly thru the ass because Balaam was so stubborn?

Maybe like Balaam, I'd hear God's voice if like Balaam I gave God push back. But I have. I've shaken my fist at God plenty of times. In fact, when my young son died I shook my fist and challenged Him to hurt me as much as he wanted, that I wasn't running from the devastating grief and pain of that loss, into some easy escape. It got me thru. There's way more story to it ... that's on going.

Thanks brother. It's always great to hear from you.

[JJ]

I wouldn’t worry about not hearing the Lord speak to me personally because he already has through His Son, apostles, and Spirit. It is more a matter of how I respond to the words he has already spoken to all of us.

God spoke that He is well pleased in His Son, that we should hear Him, and that He spoke to us in His Son. His Son is the radiance of His glory and the express image of His substance.
Luke 3:22 https://biblehub.com/blb/luke/3.htm
Matthew 17:5 https://biblehub.com/blb/matthew/17.htm
Hebrews 1 https://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/1.htm

God sent His Son as the Word - we just need to behold His glory and believe in Him to have eternal life
John 1:1-14 https://biblehub.com/blb/john/1.htm

When we turn our heart to the Lord, behold and reflect Him, He transforms us into the same image as He.
2 Cor 3:16-18 https://biblehub.com/blb/2_corinthians/3.htm

God also sent apostles to speak God’s word to us. Hearing, believing, and being obedient to their word is the same as God’s word and causes us to enter into God’s rest. Such a word is living and active, divides soul from spirit and joints from marrow, and lays everything bare to the eyes of God the judge. Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

God wants us to be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and without blemish; and esteem the patience of our of our Lord as salvation, grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
https://biblehub.com/blb/1_thessalonians/2.htm
Hebrews 4:2:7-16 https://biblehub.com/bsb/hebrews/4.htm
2 Peter 3:15-18
https://biblehub.com/blb/2_peter/3.htm

Keep away from any brother who leads an undisciplined life, not in keeping with the word heard from the apostles.
2 Thess. 3:14 https://biblehub.com/bsb/2_thessalonians/3.htm

God wants us to receive in meekness the implanted word (spoken to us by the apostles) and be doers of the word and not hearers only.
James 1:25 https://biblehub.com/blb/james/1.htm

John exhorted us to hear what the Spirit has spoken to the churches in
Revelation 2 and 3 http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=Let...he+Spirit+says

So, what me worry about God not speaking to me? No way. He has indeed.

I hope this is an encouragement when it seems that God is silent.

[VoiceInWilderness]

Originally Posted by awareness

I eventually learned that. But still. The Bible depicts God as audibly speaking ; like at Jesus' baptism. He's certainly couldn't be considered deaf, dumb, and mute, back then. He even spoke thru a burning bush ... and ... let's not forget, an ass. Don't I rate at least that? I feel like one at times.

We rate higher than Balaam. We don't want the Lord speaking to us through an ass. That would mean that we are lower than an ass. Balaam's end is not good.

Originally Posted by awareness

Bro Voice, I really enjoyed your examples of the Lord speaking to you. And I noticed that God once spoke to you "externally." You obviously rate better than I. But didn't God have to speak audibly thru the ass because Balaam was so stubborn?

I think God spoke to Balaam through the ass for our benefit.
Balaam, though he was a famous servant of God, was beyond correction.
I think the reason God spoke to me that one time in an external voice was because I was a new believer and did not have a Christian background. I have heard testimonies from Muslims who got saved that are similar.

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe like Balaam, I'd hear God's voice if like Balaam I gave God push back. But I have. I've shaken my fist at God plenty of times. In fact, when my young son died I shook my fist and challenged Him to hurt me as much as he wanted, that I wasn't running from the devastating grief and pain of that loss, into some easy escape. It got me thru. There's way more story to it ... that's on going.

owee, ow, ow. I actually know how you feel. My beautiful son, Isaac, went to be with the Lord in Feb, 2016. It was a 7 year harrowing process. My wife would cry all night long. But the Lord was there. He was near me, and speaking through the word. What kept me going those 7 years was the Psalms. Down-to-earth, honest and holy templates for prayer.

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks brother. It's always great to hear from you.

thanks bro