Whistleblower

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Nell

If you are an abuser in the Local Church, or have knowledge of abuse, you are a criminal. You are not a participant in "God's best" but "the devil's worst." You have an obligation to your victims and to the Body of Christ to stop your sin, repent to your Lord and Savior, repent to your victims, repent to the church and to make restitution to your victims and rid the church of this heinous crime and this shame to the Lord's name.

I think this statement gives us the heart of the matter. It is the theme of this thread. And too many of the posts that have followed are taking us away from the general theme. That's probably on me. My bad.

So while Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, the Catholic church and the molestation of boys are all cases of sexual abuse, getting into the details of these cases will ultimately take us away from the matter at hand - To wit - Sexual abuse of women/sisters/girls in the Local Church of Witness Lee.

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[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So while Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, the Catholic church and the molestation of boys are all cases of sexual abuse, getting into the details of these cases will ultimately take us away from the matter at hand - To wit - Sexual abuse of women/sisters/girls in the Local Church of Witness Lee. -

So how much the more to not make a passing comment some kind of focus for the thread. Why would anyone want to make a passing comment something worth changing the direction of a thread? Maybe because they want to avoid and evade the subject matter at hand?

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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So how much the more to not make a passing comment some kind of focus for the thread. Why would anyone want to make a passing comment something worth changing the direction of a thread? Maybe because they want to avoid and evade the subject matter at hand?

UntoHim,

No one wants to avoid and evade the subject. However, challenging yours and others characterization about the subject is fair game and I am happy to engage in that way to show that the accusation of rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the local churches is a complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory. Furthermore, in this topic and in other topics what you call a passing comment is often not just passing at all but often used to bolster the main argument or use it as a proof point. It too, is fair game ...else by letting it stand unchallenged one might infer that there is tacit agreement on our part.

Even letting your post quoted above go unchallenged could give someone the impression that those of us challenging Nell’s absurd accusations are trying to avoid and evade which we are not. And it is transparent that Nells cry of “Off-Topic” is her attempt to control the arc of the dialogue by letting your and those of her companions remarks stand and by censoring Evangelicals .....as she attempted with me previously. ZNP rightly pointed out that Nell legitimized as on topic a point she then criticized as off topic.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Nobody has said "rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the Local Churches". Talk about complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory. No worries though, Nell, me and most others here are used to your hypocritical feigning of indignation. It's pretty much all you do around this place.

I'll tell you what is rampant among Local Church of Witness Lee leaders - The utter disrespect and abject contempt for their sisters in Christ. I have heard more than just a few women/sisters complain about being treated as "second class citizens" in the Local Church. And while treating girls/women/sisters as second class citizens isn't in and of itself sexual abuse, IT CREATES AN ATMOSPHERE WHERE GIRLS/WOMEN/SISTERS ARE VULNERABLE AND SUBJECT TO SUCH ABUSE.

Deny it all you want. Feign indignation till the mooing cows come home. Avoid and evade to your hearts content. And most of all, you are more than welcome to feel like nobody cares for what you think and feel about the matter......Welcome to the world of the average Local Church sister.
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[Drake]

-1

Just to be clear. You prefer “flourish “ as opposed to “rampant “....

.....:And the accusation of “rape” by forum members is ok with you.

Let’s get the terms right

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Let’s get the terms right

Drake

Let's get the facts of history right.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

Just to be clear. You prefer “flourish “ as opposed to “rampant “

What I prefer is that girls/women/sisters are not put in a position where they are sexually abused by Christian men who are in a position of trust over them. What I would also prefer is that Local Church leaders don't act like cats in the litter box. This started with Watchman Nee, continued with Witness Lee and continues to this day.

Let’s get the terms right

So what's your next move? Are you going to tell us that "It depends upon what the meaning of 'Is' is".
I'll tell you what, why don't we see about protecting innocent girls/women/sisters first, then we can worry about terms later. This is 2018 America, not 1918 China. Girls and women can define and consider what sexual abuse is for themselves. Yes, yes, I know that "rape" has a legal definition over at the courthouse, but we are not talking about the courthouse, we are talking about the house of the living God. I know you Local Churchers would rather keep everything over at the courthouse, but since you guys haven't had much luck over there anyway lately, let's just stick with the standards for the house of God as set forth by the real Judge, shall we?
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

..... let's just stick with the standards for the house of God as set forth by the real Judge, shall we?
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Why, I think that is terrific idea UntoHim..... so how about you step up as the Christian owner of this forum and stop the slander and libel coming from your forum clique fomenting accusations of “flourishing” sexual abuse, and rape, by local church leaders toward girls, women, and sisters... or are those standards that do not apply “for the house of God set forth by the real Judge”?

Or, if you really think you are on a mission from God then produce the evidence to substantiate the accusations..... let’s see the specifics .... you owe the forum that much... Step up and deliver the evidence amigo. Until then, spare us irrelevant lectures about kitty litter boxes, 1918 China, courthouses, and Bill Clinton,.. you are complicit in accusations about real people, a specific group, today, and in a public forum..... and it happens to be yours.

Trying to help you out bud. I really really am.

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Nobody has said "rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the Local Churches". Talk about complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory. No worries though, Nell, me and most others here are used to your hypocritical feigning of indignation. It's pretty much all you do around this place.

I'll tell you what is rampant among Local Church of Witness Lee leaders - The utter disrespect and abject contempt for their sisters in Christ. I have heard more than just a few women/sisters complain about being treated as "second class citizens" in the Local Church. And while treating girls/women/sisters as second class citizens isn't in and of itself sexual abuse, IT CREATES AN ATMOSPHERE WHERE GIRLS/WOMEN/SISTERS ARE VULNERABLE AND SUBJECT TO SUCH ABUSE.

Deny it all you want. Feign indignation till the mooing cows come home. Avoid and evade to your hearts content. And most of all, you are more than welcome to feel like nobody cares for what you think and feel about the matter......Welcome to the world of the average Local Church sister.
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UntoHim,

You are correct. Thank you for your support.

Rule #1 of writing is "write about what you know".

John Ingalls' "Speaking the Truth in Love" is the classic. He wrote about the sister who came to him and poured out her heart and soul, exposing the sinful behavior of her abuser, at great personal risk to both of them.

As long as this book exists, it will remain the testament of sexual abuse in the Local Church. To deny John's account of Phillip Lee's sexual behavior in the LC, as documented by him in STTIL, you may as well deny the abuse of young boys in the Catholic Church. As with the LC, the question is not "did it really happen" but "how bad was it" and "is it still happening."

After having been out of the LC for a period of years, I went back to a meeting in Irving one Sunday morning. The only thing I remember about that meeting was the looks on the faces of the sisters. Blank. No smiles. No frowns. Just blank. The men were up and down with the fist pump. Declaring "I'm so happy in this lovely place." Even a few sisters gave testimonies but their faces were still blank.

Jane Anderson described it as a "good old boys club". And the "good old boys" are still blind as bats. And if you're in the club, you don't get to vote.

Nell

[JLBW]

Originally Posted by Drake

I am happy to engage in that way to show that the accusation of rampant sexual abuse by local church leaders in the local churches is a complete and utter fabrication, slander, and defamatory.

Sorry but your lack of evidence that it is happening is not the same as "not happening". I can guarantee that it is rampant as I have first hand knowledge of victims and I am one.

[Nell]

JLBW,

Thank you for coming to the forum and telling your story. You are right. Nothing can change what happened to you and, who knows how many others who were abused by men in the Local Church. I cannot bring myself to refer to these people as "brothers".

The abuse apparently continues to this day.

How can we help? This forum could be a starting place. If you know other sisters who have suffered as you have, consider encouraging them to come here and at least read. Start with Whistleblower. There is a LOT of information and conversation in this topic. Also, Martha and Marry's House is a good private place for women to share among other women.

There are a couple of posters who contributed to Whistleblower with an obvious goal of derailing the subject. To me this only shows how important this topic is to the sisters and important to the house of God that this sin be exposed and dealt with.

Again, thank you for sharing with us, and I am so sorry for 1) the sexual abuse you suffered by a man you trusted, and 2) the way you were treated when you exposed this abuse. I am praying for you.

Nell

1 Timothy 5:19-21
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

[JLBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

JLBW,

Thank you for coming to the forum and telling your story. You are right. Nothing can change what happened to you and, who knows how many others who were abused by men in the Local Church. I cannot bring myself to refer to these people as "brothers".

The abuse apparently continues to this day.

How can we help? This forum could be a starting place. If you know other sisters who have suffered as you have, consider encouraging them to come here and at least read. Start with Whistleblower. There is a LOT of information and conversation in this topic. Also, Martha and Marry's House is a good private place for women to share among other women.

There are a couple of posters who contributed to Whistleblower with an obvious goal of derailing the subject. To me this only shows how important this topic is to the sisters and important to the house of God that this sin be exposed and dealt with.

Again, thank you for sharing with us, and I am so sorry for 1) the sexual abuse you suffered by a man you trusted, and 2) the way you were treated when you exposed this abuse. I am praying for you.

Nell

1 Timothy 5:19-21
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Thank you Nell! I feel stronger and freer now that I've said it out loud. But in also afraid of DCP and what they might try to do to shut me up. Could they sue me?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by JLBW

Thank you Nell! I feel stronger and freer now that I've said it out loud. But in also afraid of DCP and what they might try to do to shut me up. Could they sue me?

Yes. They could sue you. However, anybody can file a lawsuit any time against anyone for any reason. Frivolous lawsuits are filed and thrown out of court every day.

* A lawsuit against you by DCP, if it goes forward, could backfire. It could open a door for you to testify and call witnesses. Those who have also been abused could line up to tell their story in open court and name names. But who knows? DCP exists for the purpose of filing lawsuits.

* Does DCP have a cause of action against you? You have not damaged DCP. You could file a counter claim against it for harassment.

I used to be a legal secretary and legal assistant. I have a degree in "Law and Order". I know enough to be dangerous !

Your question "Can they sue me?" is exactly what DCP wants in the back of people's minds. This is the image it wants to portray. Because of DCP's litigious history, it looms large as a deterrent against anyone speaking out. It's history provides a bully pulpit without it saying a word. It wants people never to forget who is running the show: DCP.

Remember the Wizard of Oz? The man behind the curtain? His power was an illusion.

Nell

[Cal]

Originally Posted by JLBW

Sorry but your lack of evidence that it is happening is not the same as "not happening". I can guarantee that it is rampant as I have first hand knowledge of victims and I am one.

Don't worry about Drake, JLBW. He's a serial prevaricator, and worse. He's probably mentally ill.

Thanks for stepping up and standing up to him.