Outer Darkness?

[A little brother]

Then the question is who is truly rebirthed. I still can't imagine how a regenerated believer truly with God's life in him still act like an unbeliever in the world. I have to take the position that there are only true believers and unbelievers. True (faithful) believers get the reward and unbelievers get the punishment in the end.

There are so many warnings from the apostles to "believers" in the NT. I don't think it is just about missing rewards, it is something much more severe.

I am not saying salvation can be lost, it is more about whether we are truly saved in the first place.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, having escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but having again been entangled in these, they are defeated, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Then the question is who is truly rebirthed. I still can't imagine how a regenerated believer truly with God's life in him still act like an unbeliever in the world. I have to take the position that there are only true believers and unbelievers. True (faithful) believers get the reward and unbelievers get the punishment in the end.

There are so many warnings from the apostles to "believers" in the NT. I don't think it is just about missing rewards, it is something much more severe.

I am not saying salvation can be lost, it is more about whether we are truly saved in the first place.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, having escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but having again been entangled in these, they are defeated, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

This verse in 2nd Peter . . . I think if someone is a defeated Christian, then their state actually is worse in this life (than they were before being saved). They have tasted what is true and have rejected it. Therefore nothing remains for them. I actually think I've experienced some of that (haven't we all to some degree?) - the flesh is godless. It doesn't believe in God or any of the things of God. We carry this flesh with us. It's dark. It can sink itself into one heck of a funk, complaining, feeling sorry, woe is me, confusion, etc. We all carry this in our flesh (no good thing dwells there). So if someone went back to living 100% in their flesh, there is no hope . . . no nothing! Might as well just pull the trigger ("Bullet in the brainpan: Squish!" for those Firefly fans) and put it out of its misery. ("The mind of the flesh is death" Romans 8)

However, I don't believe this equates to an eternal loss of salvation. This child (hard to call a "believer") will suffer an incredible loss. So much so that it is hard to imagine the grief, pain and deepest regret - yes, much weeping and gnashing of teeth for all they carelessly threw away and counted as nothing. How long this suffering will last? Don't know, but it's not pretty.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This verse in 2nd Peter . . . I think if someone is a defeated Christian, then their state actually is worse in this life (than they were before being saved). They have tasted what is true and have rejected it. Therefore nothing remains for them. I actually think I've experienced some of that - the flesh is godless. It doesn't believe in God or any of the things of God. We carry this flesh with us. It's dark. It can sink itself into one heck of a funk, complaining, feeling sorry, woe is me, confusion, etc. We all carry this in our flesh (no good thing dwells there). So if someone went back to living 100% in their flesh, there is no hope . . . no nothing! Might as well just pull the trigger ("Bullet in the brainpan: Squish!" for those Firefly fans) and put it out of its misery. ("The mind of the flesh is death" Romans 8)

However, I don't believe this equates to an eternal loss of salvation. This child (hard to call a "believer") will suffer an incredible loss. So much so that it is hard to imagine the grief, pain and deepest regret - yes, much weeping and gnashing of teeth for all they carelessly threw away as nothing. How long this suffering will last? Don't know, but it's not pretty.

Good points.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Then the question is who is truly rebirthed. I still can't imagine how a regenerated believer truly with God's life in him still act like an unbeliever in the world. I have to take the position that there are only true believers and unbelievers. True (faithful) believers get the reward and unbelievers get the punishment in the end.

Little Brother, many children of God have acted worse than the unbelievers. Look at what Paul writes about Christians in God's great house (2.20) in II Timothy 3.

I have met some who confessed to being genuinely saved and baptized as children, yet as adults were as prodigals (Luke 15) who cared nothing for God.

There are also some who harbor bitter hatred towards God because of past pains and disappointments.

The lives of God's children are as diverse as His entire creation.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Little Brother, many children of God have acted worse than the unbelievers. Look at what Paul writes about Christians in God's great house (2.20) in II Timothy 3.

I have met some who confessed to being genuinely saved and baptized as children, yet as adults were as prodigals (Luke 15) who cared nothing for God.

There are also some who harbor bitter hatred towards God because of past pains and disappointments.

The lives of God's children are as diverse as His entire creation.

That why I am not sure what is "genuinely saved" and who are really children of God. I certainly hope myself to be. But somehow I guess I can never be 100% sure until that day.

I can only trust God that He knows who to choose.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by A little brother

That why I am not sure what is "genuinely saved" and who are really children of God. I certainly hope myself to be. But somehow I guess I can never be 100% sure until that day.

I can only trust God that He knows who to choose.

It's a faith thing (not by sight). Have you called on Him and accepted Him? Have you had His speaking within at any time? Have you experienced any joy related to His promises or in prayer or in fellowship? If you've answered any in the affirmative, then His life is in you.

And if so, then take it by faith regardless of feelings, because His word says you are saved and in God's family!

[Sons to Glory!]

Hey - for anyone interested, I just posted a draft paper I wrote entitled, "Faithful in a Few Things" in another thread here:

Faithful in a Few Things

It was four Word doc pages, so sorry, it's a little long. It regards many of the things around this current discussion. Please let me know what you think, in light of our discussion here.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hey - for anyone interested, I just posted a draft paper I wrote entitled, "Faithful in a Few Things" in another thread here:

Faithful in a Few Things

It was four Word doc pages, so sorry, it's a little long. It regards many of the things around this current discussion. Please let me know what you think, in light of our discussion here.

StG,

Well said. If you were going to take it to the next level I suggest three extensions of what you started. First, the assurance of our eternal security is based on God’s righteousness.... He has bound Himself to the sacrifice and shed blood of Christ and can never change His mind. He cannot make a claim on two for sin, His Son and us... were He to do that He would be unrighteous. There is a Psalm that says the foundation of His throne is based on righteousness, meaning His ruling in the universe is based on righteousness. Therefore, our eternal salvation is assured because He is righteous and could never do anything uprighteous like demand payment for the same sin twice. If He ever were unrighteous, even in one small matter, like not forgiving a little brother whose sins, each and every one of them, have been washed by the blood of Christ then the foundation of His throne would collapse and the universe would no longer exist as we know it.

Secondly, related to God’s righteousness is reward and punishment for works, deeds, profit, growth, and readiness after becoming a born again child of God. He is righteous in this also in that He has given us everything pertaining to meeting the standards of the reward of the Kingdom and to enter the joy of the Lord. The parable of the talents show that the entrance to the kingdom was based on a doubling of what the Lord had given each servant. To the one that was given 5 talents a total of 10 were returned to Him. Likewise to the one given 2 another 2 were added, so 4. These servants were counted worthy of entering the joy of their Lord. Had the servant given 1 talent doubled what he had been given he too would have been rewarded the same as the other two servants. By this we can see how righteous the Lord is in the matter of reward and punishment. The parable also hints that had the unfaithful servant merely returned interest he would have received something!

Third, I suggest adding your three principles at the beginning as a framework for the article and a summary of them at the end. Tell them what you are going to tell them , then tell them, then tell them what you told them.

Alb, if you have read this far I encourage you to read StG’s article. I believe it is the Lords timely provision for you as are replies to you specifically about eternal salvation by other brothers in this thread.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

StG,

Well said. If you were going to take it to the next level I suggest three extensions of what you started. First, the assurance of our eternal security is based on God’s righteousness.... He has bound Himself to the sacrifice and shed blood of Christ and can never change His mind. He cannot make a claim on two for sin, His Son and us... were He to do that He would be unrighteous. There is a Psalm that says the foundation of His throne is based on righteousness, meaning His ruling in the universe is based on righteousness. Therefore, our eternal salvation is assured because He is righteous and could never do anything uprighteous like demand payment for the same sin twice. If He ever were unrighteous, even in one small matter, like not forgiving a little brother whose sins, each and every one of them, have been washed by the blood of Christ then the foundation of His throne would collapse and the universe would no longer exist as we know it.

Secondly, related to God’s righteousness is reward and punishment for works, deeds, profit, growth, and readiness after becoming a born again child of God. He is righteous in this also in that He has given us everything pertaining to meeting the standards of the reward of the Kingdom and to enter the joy of the Lord. The parable of the talents show that the entrance to the kingdom was based on a doubling of what the Lord had given each servant. To the one that was given 5 talents a total of 10 were returned to Him. Likewise to the one given 2 another 2 were added, so 4. These servants were counted worthy of entering the joy of their Lord. Had the servant given 1 talent doubled what he had been given he too would have been rewarded the same as the other two servants. By this we can see how righteous the Lord is in the matter of reward and punishment. The parable also hints that had the unfaithful servant merely returned interest he would have received something!

Third, I suggest adding your three principles at the beginning as a framework for the article and a summary of them at the end. Tell them what you are going to tell them , then tell them, then tell them what you told them.

Alb, if you have read this far I encourage you to read StG’s article. I believe it is the Lords timely provision for you as are replies to you specifically about eternal salvation by other brothers in this thread.

Drake

Thanks for taking the time to read it and to give some thoughtful feedback! I have given the draft to a number of ones and will see what everyone thinks - I appreciate the suggestions you gave and will consider implementing them. As said, it really was a first draft - it just flowed out during two plane rides I made last week, and is basically the same as it was on the yellow legal pad I used. So I know it very likely needs improved organization, etc.

Did you find the references good enough, or should I add more? - there's a balance in this for the sake of reading simplicity (and length), but I want to be sure the reader knows the pertinent scripture.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Drake

...Third, I suggest adding your three principles at the beginning as a framework for the article and a summary of them at the end. Tell them what you are going to tell them , then tell them, then tell them what you told them.

Finally got around to looking at this paper again, and I incorporated the matter of God's righteousness as a basis for His action (thanks!). However, what do you mean by my "three principles" to add as a summary?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

It's a faith thing (not by sight). Have you called on Him and accepted Him? Have you had His speaking within at any time? Have you experienced any joy related to His promises or in prayer or in fellowship? If you've answered any in the affirmative, then His life is in you.

And if so, then take it by faith regardless of feelings, because His word says you are saved and in God's family!

I agree wholeheartedly. The Lord has promised that if we seek Him with all our heart, we will find Him. Every person on earth owes it to him/herself to do this much. (Jeremiah 29.13; Matt 7.7; Luke 11.9)

Our father of faith Abraham, simply believed God and that became righteousness to him. (Genesis 15.6; Romans 4.3)

The simplest definition of salvation is to become righteous as Abraham, by believing that Jesus Christ died for us to pay our debt to the law, and rose from the dead to give us eternal life.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by A little brother

That why I am not sure what is "genuinely saved" and who are really children of God. I certainly hope myself to be. But somehow I guess I can never be 100% sure until that day.

I can only trust God that He knows who to choose.

Yes bro Little brother, all this talk about outer darkness, Hades, and the lake of fire gives me the heebie-jeebies. Cuz a long time ago I realized that, if it depends on me I'm in trouble.

But it doesn't depend on me. So no worry about outer darkness, or all the rest.

That's why I love the song, Rocka my soul in the bosom of Abraham.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzsy-RVnI0U

[aron]

Originally Posted by A little brother

I can only trust God that He knows who to choose.

For me, the answer is simple: God chose Jesus Christ. The NT repeats this refrain over and over. Don't ever take your eyes off God's selection and you'll do fine. "We have the prophetic word made firm" - it is Jesus. There can by definition be none else. The NT is utterly clear on this point.

The danger of the performance-based 'charismatic' experience is that the enemy can distract you to focus on yourself.

"Hey, Ma! Look at me! I'm exercising my spirit!"

Now you become the subject of attention, not Jesus. The self has found a new cloak, labeled "enjoyment" or whatnot.

[Ohio]

Great point. LSMers love to tout their meeting style with all the members "functioning" in the meetings. Yet who has adequately examined the downside of this "performance-based" system? If we must "know them by their fruit," then after all the years, where are all the blessed recipients?"

I was fortunate to be in a region that at least was aware of some of the dangers of these public performances. Cheers and adulation bestowed on young believers is not all good. Seeds of vain glory can also be sown into their hearts, deceiving their growing faith. How easy it has become to fake the real thing and perform for a willing audience. And whoch LC leader dares to suffer backlash for signaling the dangers here?

We have some of these testimonies on this forum. Make no mistake, LSM has damaged many a young faith seed with their programs.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How easy it has become to fake the real thing and perform for a willing audience.

Matthew 6:1,2

"Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be praised by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward."

The caution applies not only to giving, but to any act: if it gets social reinforcement (warm fuzzies all around) then one may do it for the group approval, assuming this is a one-to-one analog of "gaining Christ". So just go to the right meeting, shout the right phrases, and 'voila'! You're on your way. . .but if the phrases shouted get 'funny' - i.e. they depart more and more from the plain words of the gospel, what to do? All you have is your so-called enjoyment, trusting in your performance. And thus the anxiety and uncertainty.

And the builders of the system have nice income flow, for themselves and even their occasionally 'unspiritual' progeny. "Truly I tell you, they already have their reward." They've used their home-grown theology and transferred subjectivism to build an earthly kingdom.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The caution applies not only to giving, but to any act: if it gets social reinforcement (warm fuzzies all around) then one may do it for the group approval, assuming this is a one-to-one analog of "gaining Christ". So just go to the right meeting, shout the right phrases, and 'voila'! You're on your way. . .but if the phrases shouted get 'funny' - i.e. they depart more and more from the plain words of the gospel, what to do? All you have is your so-called enjoyment, trusting in your performance. And thus the anxiety and uncertainty.

Years ago TC, while giving a regional message, had a young rising young star stand up and give a demonstration of public prayer. Young JV told us all how to do it, and then gave a demonstration -- "start out slow, increase speed, short succinct phrases, etc. ... -- all to thunderous "amens" from the audience. It was perhaps the first time I ever considered that public prayer could all be manipulated. Apparently JV was really good at this. I, however, was not that good.

Bottom line is this: Every unique practice and teaching must be tested and proven. Some require the test of time. Some require the test of Christian scholarship. Some require a simple examination with the scriptures. "But ... test all things, hold on to only the good." (I Thess 5.21)