Outer Darkness?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This is a very real atmosphere of fear cultivated in the church. Even when I was younger and knew I wasn't on the best of terms with the Lord, most times when I would drive home from saints' houses I would essentially expect for a car to t-bone me as I drove through an intersection because that is what God does if you are not 100% for Him or the church...

One thing you said at one point that I think is valuable is this: it was often strongly implied, that these things were so. But it might not get printed in HWMR, so as to keep the air of propriety (read: orthodoxy).

I grew up in an abusive home, and my family behaved differently when "company" came. Once the strangers left, then we got the "real family life." LC is like this in some ways that things are continually suggested as being so, without being able to confront them, because, "Where did we say anything like that" is the response.

It's extremely effective mind control because it's continual and repetitious, yet one can't confront it openly.

The other thing about Trapped's testimony is to imagine what it's like to grow up at 8 years old, 10 years old, and hear this stuff all the time. What kind of effect it has on one's ability to think. How many of them who leave the LC leave the faith! They just can't imagine God being any different from what they were brought up on.

Originally Posted by Trapped

If you have any more to say about this topic I am all ears. I have a hard time forgiving people, or if I manage to, it is hard for it to last or be "ongoing forgiveness". I know, "Christ is our forgiveness" but some of us have a harder time of it than others. Any more experience or advice would be much appreciated.
Unforgiveness truly is torture for the unforgiving!

I learned two things from the Master (aka Jesus the Lord, Rabbi Yeshua, the Teacher of Righteousness &c):
1. The gap between me and the most pathetic reprobate probably isn’t as great as the gap between me and the Most High God - my showing mercy to sinners on my path is an opportunity for God to show mercy to me.
2. As I do unto others God will do to me. If I forgive, I will be forgiven (Matt 6:12); if I don’t forgive, I won’t be forgiven (Matt 6:15).
Pretty simple stuff, really.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by aron

The other thing about Trapped's testimony is to imagine what it's like to grow up at 8 years old, 10 years old, and hear this stuff all the time. What kind of effect it has on one's ability to think. How many of them who leave the LC leave the faith! They just can't imagine God being any different from what they were brought up on.

Not only are you a young child carrying around that burden, but once you grow up some and realize that you were cheated out of knowing the real person and heart of God, you are then left to wrestle with the questions of "Where was God in all this? Why would He let me go on for so long under such a heavy burden without stepping in to clear it up? If He really wants a relationship with me, where was He to correct the misrepresentation and show Himself to me? Does He really love me or just love seeing me hurt?"

It really does a number on you.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I can surmise that some localities exist where these kind of things were not said, which explains Drake's experience, but I not only heard these statements within a locality, I also heard them in the live trainings spoken by the co-workers...Then when we get to a point where we realize we can discern, we have decades of misrepresentations about God to surgically extract from our very cells!

Great post Trapped! Of course all current Local Church members are going to deny that such a cultish atmosphere exists within the movement. Denials of such teachings/practices are to be expected from such cultic/aberrational groups like the Local Church of Witness Lee. According to my observation, these kind fear mongering tactics are less prevalent in the movement these days, but as you noted, they are deeply ingrained in the hearts and minds of the faithful older ones - the very ones who have the most influence. I distinctly recall some of my concerned family members asking me if such rumors were perpetrated, and I distinctly recall denying any such rumors or stories were circulated among the members. (insert Pinocchio's growing nose emoticon here) Hey, if Witness Lee could deny that he was to be considered an apostle, I could certainly get away with such a little harmless white lie...am I rrriiigggghhhttt?

This whole matter of "Outer Darkness" as taught in the Local Church is an extreme and tortured interpretation of a purgatory-like Millennial kingdom punishment used by quite a number of false teachers and apostle wannabes over the centuries. Witness Lee wasn't the first one to teach this, and he won't be the last I'm sure.
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[Evangelical]

It is human psychology to recall bad events or teachings and forget the good...particularly if they are 30 years ago. Whenever I hear about outer darkness it is often tempered with the truth about eternal security and its purpose to correct and reform not destroy. Anyway..a believer should fear displeasing the Lord rather than fear punishment. A doctrine without outer darkness could be considered 'sparing the rod'.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is human psychology to recall bad events or teachings and forget the good...particularly if they are 30 years ago. Whenever I hear about outer darkness it is often tempered with the truth about eternal security and its purpose to correct and reform not destroy. Anyway..a believer should fear displeasing the Lord rather than fear punishment. A doctrine without outer darkness could be considered 'sparing the rod'.

How would someone be corrected and reformed in darkness? Wouldn't he or she need God's light?

[UntoHim]

Good point A little brother!

Of course this is just another indication of the serious problems with Witness Lee's make-it-up-as-you-go-along, wacky "theology". Undoubtedly, he got some of the basics of this "Outer Darkness" stuff from the Brethren, and maybe a few others, but as Lee was apt to do, he took a questionable doctrine/teaching and blasted it to all new heights of absurdity and foolishness. And then, before you know it, you have a bunch of young and gullible people thinking that if they leave some tiny, insignificant sect they are going to get cancer, or get into a horrible car accident, or a grand piano is going to fall on their head.

As has been noted, thankfully this madness is much less of an issue in the movement in recent times. But we can be sure that this kind of mentality is still alive and well within the ranks of the Official Leaders - The Blended Brothers, and probably also with the great majority of elders in the various Local Churches. May God have mercy.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

How would someone be corrected and reformed in darkness? Wouldn't he or she need God's light?

Your question is equivalent to asking "how would gold be refined through fire, wouldn't it need light?". Obviously for the purification to take place, the impurities need to be burned away.

Salvation is justification, sanctification, and glorification. Outer darkness is for sanctification, and therefore for salvation. Evangelicals/Protestants err by thinking that sanctification and glorification is not part of salvation. That's why they cannot explain the verses about gold refined by fire. They think that believers in whatever carnal condition and any state receive full rewards in heaven without consequence. When this is in direct contradiction to the scriptures about "sparing the rod".

An example of this misunderstanding is when OBW wrote in this thread:

"And it might be about something other than salvation, but rather related to sanctification. "

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

An example of this misunderstanding is when OBW wrote in this thread:
"And it might be about something other than salvation, but rather related to sanctification."

You're quoting someone out of context. Please provide the exact reference for OBW's statement so we can judge for ourselves what he was saying, rather than taking your word for it.
.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Your question is equivalent to asking "how would gold be refined through fire, wouldn't it need light?". Obviously for the purification to take place, the impurities need to be burned away. Salvation is justification, sanctification, and glorification. Outer darkness is for sanctification, and therefore for salvation. Evangelicals/Protestants err by thinking that sanctification and glorification is not part of salvation.

Where says there is fire in outer darkness? Or any form of God's work to purify? Where says the servant will return from outer darkness to his master?

(BTW, in case you don't know, fire produces light)

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Evangelicals/Protestants err by thinking that sanctification and glorification is not part of salvation.

Wow Evangelical, it seems you've never delved into a deeper study or am thinking a hasty generalization or just mere a strawman fallacy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Not only are you a young child carrying around that burden, but once you grow up some and realize that you were cheated out of knowing the real person and heart of God, you are then left to wrestle with the questions of "Where was God in all this? Why would He let me go on for so long under such a heavy burden without stepping in to clear it up? If He really wants a relationship with me, where was He to correct the misrepresentation and show Himself to me? Does He really love me or just love seeing me hurt?"

It really does a number on you.

You are right.

Nearly all of us have our complaints about our own personal upbringing. I had mine. It was these almost cries for justice and answers that led me to the Savior, after stumbling into many shameful and painful pits. Since then life has not been a bed of roses without its discouragements. It was these events which force us to take serious assessment of our short time on earth. Do we zoom in on what we find missing and objectionable, or do we "treasure hunt" to find some heavenly gems in our own dumpster of life.

Fortunately, I've done both. I say fortunately because what if I had never sought the Answer, and then found Him? Of course, most of us would like to believe that "if God was good," we should never have had the difficulties we did in the first place. Why was I created the way I was? Why was I in this family? Why was everyone picking on me? Questions like this tormented me at one time. Over time I came to learn the secret of ascension. Actually I did this many times over the years, since I was first saved, before I even realized what I had done.

Briefly, I somehow rise above the situation and look down with a new point of view. I see suffering as short-lived and temporary. Instead of seeing my own health issues, I see those born blind, those hit by tragedy, those far worse off than me. Instead of comparing downward from some perceived ideal, I compare upward. All my complaints then seem tiny from above. Things take on new perspective. Eternity comes into view. The blessings of my Father can also be seen. The little annoyances almost disappear. The needs of others can be seen. The important things come into focus.

Trapped, hope this helps somehow.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You are right.

Nearly all of us have our complaints about our own personal upbringing. I had mine. It was these almost cries for justice and answers that led me to the Savior, after stumbling into many shameful and painful pits. Since then life has not been a bed of roses without its discouragements. It was these events which force us to take serious assessment of our short time on earth. Do we zoom in on what we find missing and objectionable, or do we "treasure hunt" to find some heavenly gems in our own dumpster of life.

Fortunately, I've done both. I say fortunately because what if I had never sought the Answer, and then found Him? Of course, most of us would like to believe that "if God was good," we should never have had the difficulties we did in the first place. Why was I created the way I was? Why was I in this family? Why was everyone picking on me? Questions like this tormented me at one time. Over time I came to learn the secret of ascension. Actually I did this many times over the years, since I was first saved, before I even realized what I had done.

Briefly, I somehow rise above the situation and look down with a new point of view. I see suffering as short-lived and temporary. Instead of seeing my own health issues, I see those born blind, those hit by tragedy, those far worse off than me. Instead of comparing downward from some perceived ideal, I compare upward. All my complaints then seem tiny from above. Things take on new perspective. Eternity comes into view. The blessings of my Father can also be seen. The little annoyances almost disappear. The needs of others can be seen. The important things come into focus.

Trapped, hope this helps somehow.

I am reminded of John 10:10... the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy..but Jesus came that we would have life and have it more abundantly.. even overflowing..

So many people have been deceived by going to 'church'. I know many here have returned to 'church' and are happy and content. Good for you so this may not pertain to you.

That said, many people have given their lives and energy to 'the church' rather than to Jesus forgetting that we need our lamps to be filled daily with His Spirit. If He leads us to do good works so be it. Good works follows our Faith in HIM.

They eventually get burned out or deceived that 'the church' is more important than anything else. Loyalty is to the 'pastor' more than the congregation from my observation and even less to Jesus.

I have been reading testimonies of people leaving the 'church of Christ'...so many people are TRAPPED by religion. We forget GOD is not a religious Deity. We can't please HIM in our natural man! But as we have communion with HIM He directs our path.

Btw.. at my bible study last night, we had a guest who used to go to the church our hosts attend. Since we are reading Joshua, he brought a Shofar, a long ram's horn and blew it beautifully. He stopped attending the church he was raised in about 5-6 yrs ago.

What a SURPRISE he converted to JUDAISM! Big time, unwavering Jew!! I realized he never experienced the Holy Spirit and God's Word inside him..thus he was never born again... after attending Christian 'church' all his life. Anyway..

I am grateful for the scriptures:
Jesus began a good work in me.. in fact a MOST EXCELLENT work in me and not only me but to His followers..to His brethren, to the born again saints washed and cleansed in the Precious Blood of the Lamb and He is going to finish it. (Phillipians 1:6)

I am grateful He will never leave me (or us) and never, ever forsake us.

I am grateful for the Holy Spirit revealing 1 Corinthians 10:13 back in 1975

There is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: yet God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation (trial) also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Bottom line.. Satan, that old serpent does not want us to have a relationship, communion, Faith in Christ Jesus our Savior. He thrusts us into situations that cause us to doubt God is for us. To distrust believers, our fellow brethren.

Imagine what all those poor Catholic children endured during the 40s, 50's and 60s from the pedophile 'priests' in the RCC in Philadelphia!! May GOD truly have mercy on them and heal them and reveal HIMSELF to those people who were violated as children.

If there are any scriptures I hold on to, it is the ones I just mentioned:

Philippians 1:6
Hebrews 13:5
and 1 Corinthians 10:13

Blessings and healing from God to all.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

So many people have been deceived by going to 'church'. I know many here have returned to 'church' and are happy and content. Good for you so this may not pertain to you.

That said, many people have given their lives and energy to 'the church' rather than to Jesus forgetting that we need our lamps to be filled daily with His Spirit. If He leads us to do good works so be it. Good works follows our Faith in HIM.

They eventually get burned out or deceived that 'the church' is more important than anything else. Loyalty is to the 'pastor' more than the congregation from my observation and even less to Jesus.

Yes. Oh the system of things we humans find ourselves in! My my.

The devil basically doesn't care what system of things someone gives themselves to - sports, fashion, TV & movies, career, politics, partying, crime . . . but also good religion (e.g., Christianity) or (dare I say it!?) even family. Some systems may be more quickly destructive to a person, but in the end, if he can us into the dirt without us experiencing the living Christ, he's been successful!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

One thing you said at one point that I think is valuable is this: it was often strongly implied, that these things were so. But it might not get printed in HWMR, so as to keep the air of propriety (read: orthodoxy).

Reminds me of an Islamic practice. Muslims are permitted to deceive the "infidels" if their cause is being furthered. It's called "al-Taqiyya" meaning deception; the islamic word for concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies.

How else does one explain Drake's non-stop declarations, that after 40+ years in the LC's, he has never witnessed anything we discuss on this forum.