Outer Darkness?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

It's called a footnote. You are giving me a statement with no source. You often ask for sources of statements; so where is the Biblical source (verse + RecV footnote) for your assertion of Lee's supposed teaching?

I will give you a reference..... however, I am asking specifically what aspect of the statement are you in disbelief about?

You don't think Witness Lee believed the dead in Christ can be overcomers? You don't think he thought they would be raised at His coming? You don't think he believed they would be judged at His coming?

Be specific.

I'm asking you to be specific because I heard variations of that statement from Witness lee so many times that I find it incredulous that you doubt he believed and taught every word of it. It is so fundamental to his eschatology.

However, it has been decades and perhaps time is taking its toll. So, be specific about the things you do not think he believed. If there are multiple items list them.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

I will give you a reference..... however, I am asking specifically what aspect of the statement are you in disbelief about?

You don't think Witness Lee believed the dead in Christ can be overcomers? You don't think he thought they would be raised at His coming? You don't think he believed they would be judged at His coming?

The topic is on "outer darkness", or what WL called the "1,000-year summer school" where defeated believers went for remedial spiritual maturing. Weeping, gnashing of teeth & so forth.

I remember the LC slogan "raptured or martyred" as how to get into the "wedding feast" of 1,000 years, as taught by WL. Poster StG seems to remember similar rhetoric & teachings (post #163).

Then I look into the RecV footnotes and see the support for this:
__________________________________________________ ___

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Footnote: Not only the resurrected overcomers, such as the man-child in and the later martyrs, but also the raptured living overcomers, such as the firstfruits, have part in the issue of the first resurrection.

Life-Study: Revelation 15:2 says, “And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire, and those who had come off victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name, standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.” We may call those mentioned here the late overcomers, the believers who pass through most of the great tribulation and who overcome Antichrist and his worship. These are those referred to in 14:12 and 13, who will be martyred under the persecution of Antichrist, then resurrected to reign with Christ in the millennium (20:4).

Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Footnote: The harvest of the earth is God's people on earth, the believers in Christ. At His first coming to the earth, the Lord sowed Himself into His believers. All the believers since that time, who have received Him as the seed of life, have become God's crop on the earth. The first-ripe ones will be reaped as the firstfruits to God before the great tribulation. The majority will ripen with the help of the sufferings in the great tribulation and will be reaped, raptured, at the end of the great tribulation.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Footnote: Unto death indicates martyrdom. The overcoming believers who constitute the man-child do not love their soul-life even unto death.
__________________________________________________ _____

I don't see anything in Revelation 20 (the only place which specifically mentions the 1,000-year kingdom) on those who are already dead but not martyred participating. Neither verse nor footnote. Nor do I see it documented in other sections. All I see are 1)resurrected martyrs and 2)living "raptured" overcomers.

All of this seems to jibe with my and StGs memories. But you say WL taught differently.

[Drake]

-1

Aron,

I don’t disagree with any of that... but there is more about this topic than what is found just in the book of Revelation .

You are engaging in selective reading... ignoring the whole in favor of a part. Did Witness Lee only teach on this topic from the book of a Revelation? No, of course not.

So, I asked you three questions about what you thought Witness Lee did not teach or believe on this topic. I asked because you need to be clear about what you want me to elaborate on and provide a reference.

Let’s go there now. Please answer those questions.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

...there is more about this topic than what is found just in the book of Revelation .

You are engaging in selective reading... ignoring the whole in favor of a part. Did Witness Lee only teach on this topic from the book of a Revelation? No, of course not.

The topic of the 1,000 year kingdom is found only in a few verses in Revelation 20. It doesn't reference Paul's epistles (one might wonder if it avoids them). Witness Lee made what appear to be categorical statements about participation in this kingdom, using slogans to encapsulate his teachings. I remembered one - "raptured or martyred". I provided quotes which appear to align with my memory. (SonstoGlory has similar memories).

You have to bear with me, as my memories of the time are now going on 30 years. But I do remember the slogans! They were useful then and still are!

You made a generic statement and I asked for attribution. Apparently you're now stonewalling. Which is fine - I expect little else.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

The topic of the 1,000 year kingdom is found only in a few verses in Revelation 20. It doesn't reference Paul's epistles (one might wonder if it avoids them). Witness Lee made what appear to be categorical statements about participation in this kingdom, using slogans to encapsulate his teachings. I remembered one - "raptured or martyred". I provided quotes which appear to align with my memory. (SonstoGlory has similar memories).

You have to bear with me, as my memories of the time are now going on 30 years. But I do remember the slogans! They were useful then and still are!

You made a generic statement and I asked for attribution. Apparently you're now stonewalling. Which is fine - I expect little else.

Ok.. I’m trying to help you remember.

Your recollections are in part.

If you are going to restrict your understanding of the millennial reign of Christ to a verse at the end of Revelation... and then ask me to explain what Witness Lee taught about the millennial reign and the overcomers just from that.. then you are not only engaging in selective reading but are trying to win an argument by selecting facts.

Besides that, If there is any stonewalling Aron it is on your part right now. You have p,entry of time to construct arguments from one book of the Bible but you cannot find the time to answer yes or no to three simple questions. I think the reason is obvious, you know and I know that once you incorporate all that Witness Lee taught on this topic your argument folds like a house of cards. You prefer to keep making assertions about what he taught based on a few selective verses because to open the aperture to include what he taught in whole allows you to frame his teaching in a way that suits your point of attack.

Else, you are not only stonewalling, sadly, you appear to be engaging in the deceitful art of sophistry.

Drake

[Sons to Glory!]

I'm haven't been ignoring the conversation between Aron & Drake, but I woke up this morning with this thought in me. The servant who is given over to the "jailers" (Matthew 18: 21-35) to repay his king everything was a matter of forgiveness. The king forgave his debt, but this slave did not forgive his fellow slaves of their's. He became very demanding and even beat his fellow slaves. This demonstrates how much unforgiveness was in him.

This section in Matthew 18 starts (prior to the parable) with a discussion about forgiveness, and Jesus tells them to forgive "70 times 7." I think this shows that God takes forgiveness very seriously. A HUGE price was paid for this - Christ was sent to suffer and die for complete forgiveness. Everything was given in order to forgive us. And He did it in such a complete way that He says He won't even remember our sins! He uses phrases such as, "as far as the east is from the west" is how far they are removed (Psalm 103:12), and says plainly that He will "remember your sin no more." (Isaiah 43:25; Hebrews 8:12)

So my thought is that since this parable ends with the unforgiving slave being thrown into jail, until his entire debt is paid, it is a warning specifically about us having any unforgiveness in our lives.

[awareness]

Another great post Sons.

Plus, let's keep all this in perspective. What's a 1000 yrs? but alas, only a day.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm haven't been ignoring the conversation between Aron & Drake, but I woke up this morning with this thought in me. The servant who is given over to the "jailers" (Matthew 18: 21-35) to repay his king everything was a matter of forgiveness. The king forgave his debt, but this slave did not forgive his fellow slaves of their's. He became very demanding and even beat his fellow slaves. This demonstrates how much unforgiveness was in him.

This section in Matthew 18 starts (prior to the parable) with a discussion about forgiveness, and Jesus tells them to forgive "70 times 7." I think this shows that God takes forgiveness very seriously. A HUGE price was paid for this - Christ was sent to suffer and die for complete forgiveness. Everything was given in order to forgive us. And He did it in such a complete way that He says He won't even remember our sins! He uses phrases such as, "as far as the east is from the west" is how far they are removed (Psalm 103:12), and says plainly that He will "remember your sin no more." (Isaiah 43:25; Hebrews 8:12)

So my thought is that since this parable ends with the unforgiving slave being thrown into jail, until his entire debt is paid, it is a warning specifically about us having any unforgiveness in our lives.

What if the verse in Matthew 18:35 isn't translated as "jailer" how does that help or hurt this narrative of "Outer Darkness"?

The greek word here in Matthew 18 is basanistēs, meaning tormentor, Strongs G930.

Jailer, on the other hand - (See Acts 16:23 as an example) is desmophulax, meaning one who guards the prisoners.