Bible Answer Man Converts to Eastern Orthodox!

[awareness]

Hey y'all, I have a dog in this fight, so to speak ... skin in this game.

Okay, we don't have a explicit doctrine of theosis in scripture. In fact, I talked to my local New Testament Greek expert, and we found that, the word theosis doesn't show up in the NT anywhere.

No matter. We have hints of it, and few verses that imply it. So it took 350 years and along comes :

Anthanasius ; speaking from back in the days when Christianity officially became a government sponsored corporation, in 4th century. 350 years for theosis to be discovered? That alone should cause us pause.

Then we have the EOC, that claims succession back thru the apostles to Jesus himself. They claim theosis too, but can't trace it back to Jesus.

Then we have johnny-come-lately, Witness Lee, with his 'becoming God in life and nature.' (He can't claim to recovery that, except for his extra-Biblical terminology).

Then in scripture we have sanctification. But more often than not that happens when we receive the Holy Spirit. So all born-againers are theosisized.

I'm happy about it. It's my skin in the game. That means, sitting here in my living room, on my computer, I'm theosisized, at the moment. And if theosis is real it's been going on from the beginning, and Witness Lee's small movement, has no corner on it.

In fact, there's lots of evidence in the Bible that God wanted/wants to make humanity God. And he wants it for all of humanity. If our population growth is an indicator, that, we're more good than bad, He seems to be coming along very well. (The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined.)

First, God made us in His image. That's got to be some kind of divinization.

Then we ate the forbidden fruit and became 'as one of us." That was a quantum leap into divinization. That was when the devil came upon the scene, so claimed. Apparently, God had failed once, pre Adam, in heaven, when a archangel broke ranks. And now he, that archangel, that took the name 'devil or Satan' has been muddling up God's plan to make humanity God ever since. He's doing a grand job at it too, it more than appears ... in the news.

Let's not mention an example of physical divinization. That of the sons of God in Gen. 6. Look what that produced. Zowie !!!. Scary !!!.

But after becoming 'as one of us,' we had something that "us" didn't have : a physical body. And we all know that that is sinful just by the odors it emits if we don't, or can't, keep it clean. Plus, the physical body is clearly not God.

That is what needs to be divinized. So, as I've been told since little, God took on flesh, to die for humanity, to settle the score with God because of our sinful body, once and for all.

. . . And to also become 'a life giving spirit,' that we can receive. That's theosis that's been enjoyed by countless, down thru the ages.

Just one more thing, and if there's no new breakthru on this matter, I'll lay low.

Down thru the years I've see preachers that were harping on some sin, only for it to be discovered that they were committing that sin. Jimmy Swaggart is just one example among many. As a result, I've concluded that, the louder the moralist, the deeper the closet.

That makes me wonder if that's why Lee harped on theosis; if he had doubts about his metanoia, and was therefore harping on theosis, thinking it would save him. Who knows? But clearly Lee wasn't deified. Sorry.

But I get it. It's fun kicking around theosis in this sandbox. It's a fun notion. I certainly enjoy it. Like Lee, it's my only hope.

Still ... What I see from this discussion so far is that we've concentrated on what the Bible says, or doesn't say, at the expense of reality.

No one, that we know of, or recorded in history, since Jesus, has ever become deified. Sorry.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay, we don't have a explicit doctrine of theosis in scripture. In fact, I talked to my local New Testament Greek expert, and we found that, the word theosis doesn't show up in the NT anywhere.

No matter. We have hints of it, and few verses that imply it. So it took 350 years and along comes : Anthanasius ; speaking from back in the days when Christianity officially became a government sponsored corporation, in 4th century. 350 years for theosis to be discovered? That alone should cause us pause.

Yes, I'm with ya.

Originally Posted by awareness

First, God made us in His image. That's got to be some kind of divinization.

Right! And many sons brought into His glory and all . . .

Originally Posted by awareness

But I get it. It's fun kicking around theosis in this sandbox. It's a fun notion. I certainly enjoy it.

Yeah. Sandbox playing sums it up I think! One day when we see all clearly, I believe we'll be laughing way hard about all this kind of conversation. We don't have a clue of what we don't know (but that doesn't stop us from trying to tell others).

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

No matter. We have hints of it, and few verses that imply it. So it took 350 years and along comes :

Anthanasius ; speaking from back in the days when Christianity officially became a government sponsored corporation, in 4th century. 350 years for theosis to be discovered? That alone should cause us pause.

That is wrong. It is found in Irenaeus and other early church fathers, before Athanasius's time.

This is from:

Arthur C. McGiffert, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1—Early and Eastern: From Jesus to John of Damascus (New York: Scribner's Sons, 1932)

Participation in God was carried so far by Irenaeus as to amount to deification. 'We were not made gods in the beginning,' he says, 'but at first men, then at length gods.' This is not to be understood as mere rhetorical exaggeration on Irenaeus' part. He meant the statement to be taken literally.

And a while ago I already gave this quote and reference:


Moreover, patristic interpretations adapted antecedent traditions that read Ps. 82:1, 6—7 as summarizing salvation history from Adam's fall to the eschatological restoration of the immortality and glory he lost

See this journal article (THE EARLIEST PATRISTIC INTERPRETATIONS OF PSALM 82, JEWISH ANTECEDENTS, AND THE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIAN DEIFICATION
Carl Mosser
The Journal of Theological Studies
NEW SERIES, Vol. 56, No. 1 (APRIL 2005), pp. 30-74):

http://www.jstor.org/stable/23969235

The author is professor of Christian theology at Gateway Seminary (Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary).

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That is wrong. It is found in Irenaeus and other early church fathers, before Athanasius's time.

This is from:

Arthur C. McGiffert, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1—Early and Eastern: From Jesus to John of Damascus (New York: Scribner's Sons, 1932)

Participation in God was carried so far by Irenaeus as to amount to deification. 'We were not made gods in the beginning,' he says, 'but at first men, then at length gods.' This is not to be understood as mere rhetorical exaggeration on Irenaeus' part. He meant the statement to be taken literally.

And a while ago I already gave this quote and reference:


Moreover, patristic interpretations adapted antecedent traditions that read Ps. 82:1, 6—7 as summarizing salvation history from Adam's fall to the eschatological restoration of the immortality and glory he lost

See this journal article (THE EARLIEST PATRISTIC INTERPRETATIONS OF PSALM 82, JEWISH ANTECEDENTS, AND THE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIAN DEIFICATION
Carl Mosser
The Journal of Theological Studies
NEW SERIES, Vol. 56, No. 1 (APRIL 2005), pp. 30-74):

http://www.jstor.org/stable/23969235

The author is professor of Christian theology at Gateway Seminary (Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary).

First off. I don't trust Baptists. I grew up with 'em. I've seen behind the curtain.

But other than that ... great stuff ... thanks ... worth looking deeper into. So far, as far as I have found, those early church fathers weren't all that.

The bottom line question is, can we really become God in life and nature? Secondly, how do we go about it? Thirdly, what is it like. And finally, who do we have as an example? I like Saint Francis of Assisi. He loved the critters, as much as God loves the sparrows.

Francis preached the Christian doctrine that the world was created good and beautiful by God but suffers a need for redemption because of human sin. He believed that all creatures should praise God (a common theme in the Psalms) and the people have a duty to protect and enjoy nature as both the stewards of God's creation and as creatures ourselves.[37] Many of the stories that surround the life of Saint Francis say that he had a great love for animals and the environment.

Seems godly to me. But what do I know? I'm not deified yet. I must be a work in progress. From the looks of it I'm gonna need a few lifetimes. Good thing the New Testament hints at reincarnation as much as it does theosis.