Latter Rain, Kingdom Now, & the Lord's Recovery

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Perhaps you could specify how many "I's" you would like me to use in my post, so I can get the balance of personal/impersonal right? How many ? 10, 20? 1? Unless you are willing to consult scholarly sources then aren't you just being willfully ignorant? I don't call that being "taught by Christ" I call that willful ignorance. By definition: Willful ignorance is the state and practice of ignoring any sensory input that appears to contradict one's inner model of reality. So the "Christ" that you say is teaching you is probably just your own inner model of reality. Instead, Christ's teaching comes by improving our own inner models of reality with external evidence. This is why God gifted the church with teachers, and to say "Christ should be your only teacher" is also to deny the role of parents as teachers in a family.

Christ commands us Christians to only call him teacher (Matthew 23:8)

Also, God through David says in Psalms 146:3;

"Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save"

Therefore calling Christ my only teacher and final authority on truth is scripture.

Aren't you a Christian? I'm not looking for your "I's" or anyone else's "I's". What has Christ revealed to you personally from scripture? Can't you just speak the truth for once?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Christ commands us Christians to only call him teacher (Matthew 23:8)

Also, God through David says in Psalms 146:3;

"Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save"

Therefore calling Christ my only teacher and final authority on truth is scripture.

Aren't you a Christian? I'm not looking for your "I's" or anyone else's "I's". What has Christ revealed to you personally from scripture? Can't you just speak the truth for once?

Whatever I posted before that is the result of Christ revealing to me from Scripture, or should I say, lack of Scripture. Confirmed by the bible commentaries and CARM.

[awareness]

Jo S, while you and EvanG go at it about dominion, I just want to know more about how you relate Christian Dominionism with Nee and Lee's Recovery movement.

Having looked into R. J. Rushdoony and Christian Reconstructionism a number of years ago, and the New Apostolic Reformation, I never saw a link to Lee et al.

I'm not familiar with this Latter Rain Kingdom now.

But even tho Rushdoony was contemporary with both Nee and Lee, I don't think there was any connection to them, or influence.

I've read that at one point Lee had a scheme where he thought the local churches would take over the whole world in 10 years.

Are you saying Lee wanted to set up a theocracy?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by awareness

I've read that at one point Lee had a scheme where he thought the local churches would take over the whole world in 10 years.

Are you saying Lee wanted to set up a theocracy?

Theocracy? I don't think so but if you have a link to this 10 year scheme I'd like to read into it.

Rather, his theology seems to be in line with Kingdom Now thought which could be an explanation for the effort behind the LC's worldwide church growth.

Kingdom Now is a type of spiritual dominionism which teaches that Christianity has to be setup a certain way in order to usher in Christ's return to earth.

In the case of the LC, Christianity has to be organized in a one church per city model believed to be shown in Revelation. This ideal would be considered a sort of preparatory stage of the "bride" and precursor to Christ's second coming.

It's also a theology many Christian leaders use on the basis of an emotional appeal to justify personal ambition, IMO. It starts with the mindset that Satan forcefully took the dominion that belonged to God so now we as God's "overcomers" have to take it back. Essentially this is setting up Satan as a scapegoat for a leaders own ambition for church growth in their own name.

From Lee's belief that the body of believers are the "bride" with a need as the bride to get ourselves ready for Christ to believing Satan usurped God's dominion of the earth in which "overcomers" will eventually defeat him leads to a works based religion fueled by man's own efforts that, perhaps inadvertently, ignores God's sovereignty and the work already accomplished on the cross.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Theocracy? I don't think so but if you have a link to this 10 year scheme I'd like to read into it.

Rather, his theology seems to be in line with Kingdom Now thought which could be an explanation for the effort behind the LC's worldwide church growth.

Kingdom Now is a type of spiritual dominionism which teaches that Christianity has to be setup a certain way in order to usher in Christ's return to earth.

In the case of the LC, Christianity has to be organized in a one church per city model believed to be shown in Revelation. This ideal would be considered a sort of preparatory stage of the "bride" and precursor to Christ's second coming.

It's also a theology many Christian leaders use on the basis of an emotional appeal to justify personal ambition, IMO. It starts with the mindset that Satan forcefully took the dominion that belonged to God so now we as God's "overcomers" have to take it back. Essentially this is setting up Satan as a scapegoat for a leaders own ambition for church growth in their own name.

From Lee's belief that the body of believers are the "bride" with a need as the bride to get ourselves ready for Christ to believing Satan usurped God's dominion of the earth in which "overcomers" will eventually defeat him leads to a works based religion fueled by man's own efforts that, perhaps inadvertently, ignores God's sovereignty and the work already accomplished on the cross.

That is mostly nonsense. You just post wild assertions with no factual basis. For example how do you explain that these movements arose in the 80s well after Lee taught his teachings. And there are key differences such as level of involvement and interest in politics and social work and beliefs about the rapture.

What is also nonsense is what you say about doctrine of works. To be an overcomer is motivated by the rewards stated in Revelation not salvation. It is well documented in Lees teachings that overcoming is for rewards not salvation and the eternal security of the believer. It just shows you don't know the basics of Lees teaching because Lee has been accused of teaching "easy believing" but you say it is doctrine of works. Which is it? Lee can't be teaching both at the same time. I might take you more seriously if I didn't know that behind your aversion to the teaching about the body of Christ as the bride and rejection of most bible commentaries that say it is, is some conspiracy about Gnosticism in the church.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That is mostly nonsense. You just post wild assertions with no factual basis. For example how do you explain that these movements arose in the 80s well after Lee taught his teachings. And there are key differences such as level of involvement and interest in politics and social work and beliefs about the rapture.

The New Apostolic Reformation and Latter Rain were/are movements. Kingdom Now is a more modern term describing an age old theology.

The mistake you're making is equating the resurgence of this dominionist teaching that took place in the seventies and eighties to it's origins.

If you do some research you'll find out Kingdom Now theology is rooted in other movements such as Latter Rain which came out of 40's Pentecostalism.

Dominionism covers a wide spectrum. You are taking specifics from one school of dominionist thought and setting up a strawman to discredit all of dominion theology.

I've argued the doctrines that influence these movements/schools of thought with scripture always showing Lee's own words supporting them so by you saying that I've made "wild assertions" is an impulsive statement.

What is also nonsense is what you say about doctrine of works. To be an overcomer is motivated by the rewards stated in Revelation not salvation. It is well documented in Lees teachings that overcoming is for rewards not salvation and the eternal security of the believer. It just shows you don't know the basics of Lees teaching. I might take you more seriously if I didn't know that behind your aversion to the teaching about the body of Christ as the bride and rejection of most bible commentaries that say it is, is some conspiracy about gnosticism in the church.

Lee viewed overcoming as something far off achieved by certain works like organizing Christians in a one church per city model.

Lee's version of overcoming is one that's motivated by setting Satan up as a boogeyman yet to be defeated rather than overcoming through faith in Christ's work knowing Satan has already been defeated on the cross. Scripture says we overcome through the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 12:11) and not through an ideal.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Lee's version of overcoming is one that's motivated by setting Satan up as a boogeyman yet to be defeated rather than overcoming through faith in Christ's work knowing Satan has already been defeated on the cross. My bible says we overcome through the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 12:11) and not through an ideal.

This is nonsense and unfounded allegations. Please educate yourself about Lee's teachings first, before posting? Lee teaches what the bible says - that overcoming is by the blood of the Lamb. That is well documented throughout his ministry books. Another aspect of overcoming is by not loving the soul life unto death.

You are confusing Lee's teachings about denial of the self/flesh with works-based salvation. Your misconceptions are equivalent to saying that these martyrs in Revelation who did not love their soul unto death and obtained an overcomer's reward, are "saving themselves by works".

This would be the first time, to my recollection, on this forum or elsewhere, that Lee would be accused of teaching salvation by works. Anyone who knows Lee's teaching knows he taught that everyone gets to go to heaven because of Christ - "call on the name of the Lord 3 times and you will be saved". Lee taught and believed in eternal security. The fact that you are accusing him of salvation by works and not 5 point Calvinisms proves how little you know about his teachings.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Theocracy? I don't think so but if you have a link to this 10 year scheme I'd like to read into it.

Brother Jo S, I hate to tell you this, but ... if all you got to relate the Recovery to Christian Dominionism is the preparation of the bride for the return of the bridegroom, and that to you is Dominionism, then Christianity is covered up with Dominionism.

This idea of preparing the bride for the return of the bridegroom has been used to scam unsuspecting and gullible believers for millennia.

Present example, right now it's the biggest Christian movement in China, I've read. That's because it works well on those trapped in a dreadful life, who are looking for a better life, and the idea of a new heaven and a new earth sounds like a way out of their dreadful life.

And it's big money. Harold Camping, for instance, made 95 million on promising the return of Jesus. It didn't happen.

Face it, Witness Lee used the bride prep to scam everyone ... and LSM is still doing it.

Please show me in scripture where it's specifically developed that we're told to prepare the bride for the return of the bridegroom. Then I might give this return of Jesus scam a fair hearing.

Until then, buyer beware, or believer beware.

And by the way, I can't remember where I got that Lee believed the LC could take over the whole world in 10 years. It might be on LCD somewhere, or I could have gotten on the old Bereans forum. Needless to say, Lee had all the math worked out on it.

I looked to see if I had it saved on my hard drive, but didn't. Others out here might be able to help us with this.

Thanks for this thread brother. Let's see where it goes.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by awareness

Brother Jo S, I hate to tell you this, but ... if all you got to relate the Recovery to Christian Dominionism is the preparation of the bride for the return of the bridegroom, and that to you is Dominionism, then Christianity is covered up with Dominionism.

The body being the "bride" doctrine and believing certain overcomers will restore what Satan usurped from God are justifications for dominionism, not necessarily evidence.

The extra-biblical belief that Christians need to be organized in a one church per city model is the evidence.

This meant Lee had the great ambition to have an LC in every city on the entire planet. If that's not dominionism then I don't know what is.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

The body being the "bride" doctrine and believing certain overcomers will restore what Satan usurped from God are justifications for dominionism, not necessarily evidence.

The extra-biblical belief that Christians need to be organized in a one church per city model is the evidence.

This meant Lee had the great ambition to have an LC in every city on the entire planet. If that's not dominionism then I don't know what is.

Does merely establishing a church in every city fit this definition of dominionism?

Dominion theology (also known as dominionism) is a group of Christian political ideologies that seek to institute a nation governed by Christians based on their personal understandings of biblical law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology

If so then every denomination is part of dominionism. Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Baptist etc.

To my knowledge Lee had no interest in politics and governing any nation with Christians. Roman Catholicism on the other hand....

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

The body being the "bride" doctrine and believing certain overcomers will restore what Satan usurped from God are justifications for dominionism, not necessarily evidence.

The extra-biblical belief that Christians need to be organized in a one church per city model is the evidence.

This meant Lee had the great ambition to have an LC in every city on the entire planet. If that's not dominionism then I don't know what is.

To me what's disturbing about Christian Dominionism is their desire to bring back Old Testament punishments, like stoning, and all the rest of that dreadful law in the OT.

I don't see the recovery wanting that, not here in America, where our constitution disallows a theocracy, with separation of church and state.

However, offshoots of Lee, like Eastern Lightning, do seem to be Dominionists, and are linked to kidnappings, violence and extortion. So Lee's movement could morph into God knows what ; like becoming a doomsday cult. That's not a far leap. With Witness Lee as their personality cult leader, even while dead, they've got a good start on it.