First Post kumbaya

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
"I'm not familiar with his relationship wth Tozer.

Concerning Lee's use of spin to rewrite history, you are spot on. I have rejected every bit of church history which I heard from Lee. It was all distorted and self-serving. While other Christians have espoused remnant theology, calling themselves the Restoration, or in our case the Recovery, Lee developed a MOTA genealogy beginning with Martin Luther. In order to make it work, he needs to find a MOTA for every age. His choice of Jean Guyon for the 17th century is so comical.

Darby was chosen for the 19th century. Have you ever read about George Muller's life of faith and work with orphanages? Darby expelled him, and for decades, membership in his little church club was contingent upon condemning Muller. What kind of oneness is that? After all my study of history, I concluded that nearly every quarantine was just a lynching. They had nothing to with teachings or heresy, rather were power struggles to eliminate all potential rivals, and silence those who could speak the truth.

Be careful how much investigative reading you decide to take on. It's endless!"






Oh, I'm realizing that!!! For whatever reason, I feel drawn to it though. Maybe because of the deprogramming that might be happening? I'm just guessing....I still want to go see someone at least once for that and see how it goes.

I think I'm drawn to it to because after being told "how it is" for so long, I want to find out for myself. I get that other people don't need to do that- but some do. We'll see where it takes me and how far I go with it!

I really liked that article from assembly life though- wow. Besides being a great writer, he covered so many topics in the LC I've had issues with and more I didn't know about. I had no idea about the factions other than the MW LC's and didn't realize the details of the movement in China. He had some really great points about mistakes being made and I thought his outlook for the future makes sense. I liked his line, "A ship headed towards an iceberg, if not moved, will hit the iceberg." That's probably not an accurate quote but it was something to that effect!

I was glad he shined some light on the Hank Hanegraff situation too. Obviously, I don't think anyone has hard proof, or I haven't seen it yet, but several of his former co-workers have spoken out against him, saying he really mishandled certain situations. They said he "redeemed" another "off" Christian group of bikers that CRI had formerly spoken out against. Basically, they were accusing him of taking money or donations that were coming in from that group and mishandling it somehow. It definitely didn't seem on the "up and up." Who knows, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt but he should definitely answer to the allegations- they're serious ones.

I was also glad the writer recognized the issue of how the "shouters" in China (early local churches of Lee- spin off of Little Flock of Nee <------correct me if I'm wrong) were persecuted by the government. This had bothered me and I'll explain more later...We got a very different version of this in LC! The way I heard was that all the persecution was the result of CRI's article about the local church. When you look at it though, it's much more complicated. Obviously, that article may have aided the persecution but there were already claims of baptizing in the name of Lee and Nee that are written about from what seem like respected authors in China. If they were doing that, it's not right but you have to remember that the United States has religious freedom, even for cults. The Chinese government didn't and they took note of what was being written and reported in China, not just taking into consideration CRI's opinion at the time. It's just not fair to blame CRI solely for the people who were imprisoned, genuine or not genuine believers. I'm sure many probably were genuine believers and that's horrible! But the culture in the LC is to always be "victimized" and "attacked" and that game is getting old. People being imprisoned in China for behavior we really don't know about shouldn't be blamed on CRI. CRI's is an Christian apologetic organization and they were just doing their job looking into the LC. This wasn't some random uneducated person who wrote a book attacking the LC- they were apologetics. I agree that they could have looked more into their research and its tragic that people were put in prison but it's not fair for WL or LSM to "victimize" themselves and say they're being attacked when their practices/teachings are questioned. That's just a normal thing that happens in some Christian groups. Wouldn't the Biblical response to being called a cult (when you believe your teachings and practices are orthodox and your a member of the body of Christ) to be to fellowship/explain/defend yourself to these fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? Obviously, that's not how it went down. I listened to an audio of Walter Martin (head of CRI at the time) speaking at an event and he claimed to have reached out to WL and that he was denied. If that's true, how is it justified that WL doesn't discuss the issues with Martin, a believer? He just victimized himself and the LC, attacked CRI, and used the situation with Chinese believers and a communist government imprisoning them to further "victimize" himself and the LC (the us vs. them tactic is play). In reality, LC and LSM have spent MILLIONS suing people, Christians included, "attacking" them! It's ridiculously hypocritical. Maybe Martin was lying (its possible) about WL refusing to meet with him. But, did WL ever meet with someone who questioned his teachings outside the LC? Doesn't the Bible tell us to first go to our brother if there is an offense? I understand, that works both ways. I'm just pointing out the "victim card" WL/LSM uses. It trickles down to the minds of all our family members who are still in as well, trust me. I spent a lot of time researching this topic because it was so hard for me to accept that WL was not who he said he was. We sort of built our family lifestyle around that fact that this was "the way" or sorry, "the new way." I'm glad I know now, I just wish I had heard this "poison" (ha!) sooner! But- I'm grateful to know now!

Just a thought- I wonder if you can specify in your tithes to the LC if you don't want your money to go to LSM or the DCP (group who sues)? If someone knows, please let me know. I'm wondering if my family knows their money goes to lawsuits when they tithe. That really bothers me, such exploitation if tithes go to that.

With the situation the LC used in China to blame CRI and victimize themselves-I think we all want this black and white explanation that doesn't exist. The most probable explanation to me is that the "shouters" or early LC of Lee may have been a little misguided, whether that is intentional of Lee or not, it doesn't matter in this point. It's the fact that the LC blamed CRI solely (from what I heard/read) at the time for these Chinese Christians being put in jail. Obviously, it was a complicated situation but then, VICTORY!!!!! When CRI came out with "We were wrong," it WAS spread around the LC like wildfire. Everyone really was "vindicated!" I felt so, at least! Yes, the article really nailed it- that was definitely the mindset. The journal was propped up on the bookshelf counter for probably over a year, ready for anyone to buy. Which of course, many did.

I didn't think anything about it at the time when the "We were Wrong" article was released. I thought it seemed to register more with the older saints, understandably. When looking into LC issues I remember reading some suspicions about it and that's when I saw all the controversy. It's hard to know what to believe but then later, reading about H.H.'s conversion to the Eastern Orthodox church, that just really made me question him. I haven't read any of his books but I was under the assumption that CRI and all writings were of a Protestant nature. I read all sorts of things people were saying and he's a pretty controversial person, to say the least. Some claimed he switched to the E.O.C. because he was getting free radio time to promote his material on a radio station owned by them.... I almost hate to write these things because I obviously don't know and I'm not going to spend my day searching for the "proof." But, I think questions should definitely be answered around the situation with CRI/H.H. and LSM/LC. If nothing manipulative/deceitful occurred- then great! But they should have full transparency with financial matters related to this because its obviously a win/win situation for both parties and given what H.H. was accused of by his staff previously, it just doesn't sit right. LSM/LC is vindicated and CRI/H.H. makes money and gains recognition. CRI is understandably going to profit from the sale of their journals to the saints, and that is understandable. I would just in interested to see how both parties may have profited financially from it. Obviously the LC profited from a P.R. standpoint, as the article mentions. I'd say CRI suffered in that aspect and they probably knew that would be the case. I just wonder if the motive was genuine repentance or financial gain.

Of course, H.H. has every right to write books and make the substantial income that he makes as long as he's not being "paid" to have a certain opinion. He seems nice enough but I think there's a little smoke there....it definitely hit me when I heard he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. They BARELY believe in justification by faith. There's a lot of faith plus works doctrine involved. I just thought it was pretty hypocritical given the fact that he's made his living being the "Bible Answer Man," and answering questions from what was obviously a Protestant perspective and now he's going back on all that at least doctrinally. That's kind of a big deal to me. I watched a video of him speaking at Gretchen Passentino's funeral, he spoke of how she was a friend, and how he admired that she could say, "We were wrong." If I'm remembering it correctly, he said he said asked her to help him "take a second look" at the LC. So they were a team, but the differences between the two were obvious. H.H. is very cool and collected, stylish with those white rimmed glasses, and G.P. seemed like just a normal, sweet, older woman who said she was, "a crazy Jesus lover."

I also watched a video of a testimony from Gretchen Passentino in a meeting apologizing and seemed like she was taking the blame fully for these Chinese Christians being put in jail. Like I said, I don't know but it definitely seems more complicated than that. She seemed really sweet, like she loved Jesus, and I have no doubt that she saw genuine believers in the LC and recanted her work because of that. And fairly, maybe some or all of it needed to be recanted. I just didn't like how all the blame seemed to be put on her and not H.H., Walter Martin, or the Chinese government.... There were a lot of factors involved! I just wonder how involved she was in the whole "vindication" between LSM and CRI. She seems genuine and I hope she wasn't used by H.H. to "seal the deal." I know it's not fair to speculate, but the way in which it all happened is just fishy. Also, someone filmed this testimony in a meeting probably without her knowledge (assuming with the low camera angle/side view) and put it on you tube. Maybe she gave permission afterwards, but you can tell she doesn't know she's being filmed and that's just a little sneaky in my opinion. She's there apologizing, if she wanted to film something and put it on you tube- she would. She already helped work on the article- but that person needed the video proof too! I don't know, I guess I just wouldn't like being filmed without my knowledge and thought it was less than classy. Obviously, the "vindication" was strong with that saint!!

I'm a little confused on who G.P. worked with though in the 70's? Was it H.H. or Walter Martin, the original leader of CRI? I've watched videos of Walter Martin- I really like him. I'm not sure what exactly he got wrong the LC but he seemed to get some of it right. I definitely agree with his points on pray-reading. That NEVER worked for me. I always blamed it on my ADD but I need to read the whole verse at once - then pray when I feel to. That's just me! Anyways, I don't know much about Walter Martin but he seems like someone who called it like he saw it. I can respect that. I heard (correct me if I'm wrong anyone), he got WL's interpretation of the Trinity wrong and called it modalism. I've read debates on that and honestly, Lee is so confusing to me regarding that topic and seems to contradict himself from one paragraph to the next. "It's this, but it's really that- but its really both" (-WL) That is basically how I feel after reading some of his explanations! I used to think I wasn't smart enough (ironically, that's the goal) But no, he's confusing at times. I never realized it's part of the "high teaching" tactic in thought reform- Make the teaching really confusing, use big words, and people blindly follow. It's a common tactic used in cults, very sad WL utilized it.

Either way, It's just not my place to determine that whether Walter Martin was right about ALL of what he said about WL. But he made points that dealt with bad practices, not just issues with doctrine, which I've personally had issues with before hearing them pointed out by Martin.

I apologize for rambling on about all that but that article touched on it and it's something that has bothered me. I suspected there was something fishy with CRI but I'm glad that article calls them out on it! It needs to be looked at for sure.

I'll have to read about Mueller and Darby after the links about the Germany situation. Thanks for sending Ohio. I agree there's a point at which it's too much, but I do want to "get out" the church history I've heard and get it straight at some point. You're right, I've always heard each century has a "prophet" of some sort. In my locality I think I just heard the term M.O.T.A. a few times. I heard "modern-day prophet" though, a lot. But yes, we were taught that there was a kind of lineage, starting with Luther- going down to Nee, then WL. And progressively, these people uncovered all the "hidden mysteries" of the Bible. Aside from questioning whether Nee or Lee was a part of that, I accepted that as truth until today.

Oh my. I have a lot to learn.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Of course, H.H. has every right to write books and make the substantial income that he makes as long as he's not being "paid" to have a certain opinion. He seems nice enough but I think there's a little smoke there....it definitely hit me when I heard he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Years ago, the whole saga of the Bible Answer Man was a recurring nightmare of mine. Lee and BAM had a public feud in Orange County about the time I joined the LC. My cousin (same age went to HS together) got saved about the same time as I did, but fashioned himself as a soapbox apologetic defender of the faith with Walter Martin as his hero. He found out that I was in the LC, and informed everyone about it. He terrorized the LC on the university he was at. He never approached me for fellowship but would use every family gathering to assault me with accusations. He ruined a couple of my siblings' weddings for me. Cousin was not even invited but had a heavenly calling to show up and defame me. There was never conversation or fellowship -- only accusations. Eventually cousin contracted skin cancer in his late 30's and died a horrible death sipping morphine in the back room. Or so I was told.

Back in the 70's Walter Martin made a huge deal about modalism with W. Lee. When the Jonestown suicide/massacre happened in 1978, all of America was spooked by cults and cult leaders. I defended Lee for years, and never thought that he was a modalist or a heretic. Lee loved a good fight though, playing the victim as a "persecuted apostle." With both Lee and Martin convinced that they both were the true defenders of the faith, neither would ever back down or dream of reconciliation. It really suited Lee's world view that all of Christianity was out to destroy the Lord's Recovery, and he alone was faithful to the Lord. So it's no wonder that me and all the brothers I knew felt the same way.

Decades later Hank Hannegraft was paid off, wined and dined by LSM, to flip-flop his position on the LC. He lived a lavish lifestyle, and many of his former associates have no respect for the guy. It's so funny and ironic that LSM and the LC's found actual validation from HH and CRI. It was a hot topic on this forum for a while. "We Were Wrong" was basically a polished farce. Frankly they never focused on the real issues at LSM. No outsiders have. That is the benefit of this internet forum -- we can read the actual testimonies of real witnesses who were LC members for decades. Neither Martin nor Hankygraft ever portrayed the LSM accurately. They missed everything important, and never interviewed her actual trail of victims.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Years ago, the whole saga of the Bible Answer Man was a recurring nightmare of mine. Lee and BAM had a public feud in Orange County about the time I joined the LC. My cousin (same age went to HS together) got saved about the same time as I did, but fashioned himself as a soapbox apologetic defender of the faith with Walter Martin as his hero. He found out that I was in the LC, and informed everyone about it. He terrorized the LC on the university he was at. He never approached me for fellowship but would use every family gathering to assault me with accusations. He ruined a couple of my siblings' weddings for me. Cousin was not even invited but had a heavenly calling to show up and defame me. There was never conversation or fellowship -- only accusations. Eventually cousin contracted skin cancer in his late 30's and died a horrible death sipping morphine in the back room. Or so I was told.

Back in the 70's Walter Martin made a huge deal about modalism with W. Lee. When the Jonestown suicide/massacre happened in 1978, all of America was spooked by cults and cult leaders. I defended Lee for years, and never thought that he was a modalist or a heretic. Lee loved a good fight though, playing the victim as a "persecuted apostle." With both Lee and Martin convinced that they both were the true defenders of the faith, neither would ever back down or dream of reconciliation. It really suited Lee's world view that all of Christianity was out to destroy the Lord's Recovery, and he alone was faithful to the Lord. So it's no wonder that me and all the brothers I knew felt the same way.

Decades later Hank Hannegraft was paid off, wined and dined by LSM, to flip-flop his position on the LC. He lived a lavish lifestyle, and many of his former associates have no respect for the guy. It's so funny and ironic that LSM and the LC's found actual validation from HH and CRI. It was a hot topic on this forum for a while. "We Were Wrong" was basically a polished farce. Frankly they never focused on the real issues at LSM. No outsiders have. That is the benefit of this internet forum -- we can read the actual testimonies of real witnesses who were LC members for decades. Neither Martin nor Hankygraft ever portrayed the LSM accurately. They missed everything important, and never interviewed her actual trail of victims.

I'm just including this whole quote from you because I'm reading it and feeling "shocked" that I'm still shocked about everything in your response. I'm sure it's old news to many on here but I'm assuming many can remember when they came out of the LC and were "shocked" by information they heard/believed and then kept being confirmed. I know this is true, I've read it, I believe it, but still- hearing it confirmed still manages to upset me....

Like I'm waiting to be proven wrong, and it's not happening....

I'm just in a totally different perspective now and gaining my bearings, I guess. It's one thing to see some videos on youtube bashing Hank Hanegraff but you have to realize that dear dear believers who I loved and respected felt so JUSTIFIED by that article. It PROVED everything they/we believed....that just becomes a part of you and it makes me realize how damaging the mindset in the LC really was. Maybe it's the Lord's plan for me, I don't know. But turning away from this mindset and opposing it is so lonely, and can I say, IMPOSSIBLE without a forum like this. I'm getting "fed" (sorry- LC term!) from not only the accounts but the verses, songs, testimonies on this site. Who knew- all these hundreds and into thousands of people have a life that goes on after leaving for GOOD. It's one thing to believe it, another to SEE IT HAPPENING. Is it UNTO HIM that started this site? I'm not clear on that. Whoever started it, thank you. And thank you to whoever started the Bereans site. And everyone that has posted and written so much. You have NO IDEA the anchor its been for me, some of my family now, and some friends that are starting to read. My extended family has reached out, I feel like the Lord is doing something. I have to believe that.

If all this is true, its just makes me wonder how H.H. sleeps at night. How do you get to a point when you justify this? Do you not think you'll pay in eternity for taking "blood money" (tithes) in exchange for a misguided Christian group's justification? If it's true, H.H. is misleading thousands and thousands of people and SOLIDIFYING their relationship with a group that is taking FULL advantage of their trusting nature (as a whole). I know we're all capable of anything but it's just devastating to see how evil can creep in these groups of people and do so much damage. A friend of mine is reading, "My unforgettable memories" by Lily Hsu and recommended it. I've seen it posted on this site. I'm just at a point where I don't want to hear about more Christian men (or women) being accused of wrong doings. I tend to believe it, given the nature of the situation. But the truth is, it doesn't matter. Jesus reigns.

I'm tired of seeing my family's relationships and others strained, seeing them spend money on LSM gimmicks, seeing people be exploited. You're right, it's a recurring nightmare.

But it's New Years Eve, it's time to look forward for me, I think. I do want to read more on church history and get facts straight. If anything, to help anyone who approaches me about it (I've made my opinion known) but first, I need to learn for myself.

I'm so sorry about your cousin, I don't doubt he had a genuine salvation. It sounds like he may have stayed immature in his walk with the Lord (something we all face), and didn't let the Lord grow in him (side note- even saying that I'm thinking, "is this LC lingo- should I be saying that??). But really, that is incredibly sad for your family and I'm so sorry. I hope there was some forgiveness and repentance there, I really can't imagine that feeling of being Christians and feeling nothing short of hate to another Christian. Not just anger, but what seems like a deep hate or at least opposition. I know it looks like a slippery slope though and I hope God has mercy on my family that we don't get there, or with other people. On the other hand, I think there is a responsibility to be held accountable- especially to people in that position in life and leadership. People seem to want the power but none of the accountability. I know most of us do what we're doing because we think we're right! But "without love"- nothing matters. It doesn't matter how right we think we are, without love. It sounds like you and so many (myself included) where just in "group think" mode with Lee. Group think is so dangerous, more so with spiritual things, in my opinion. The balance of "being one" and "group think" is something I feel to someday learn where the lines are drawn between the two.

Without love, I wouldn't have had a relationship with my grandparents (on either side, and interestingly enough- from opposite ends) or with my aunts/uncles/cousins. Reading so many stories makes me realize how much I have to be thankful for. It may have not been perfect, but they got through it- with love.

My grandfather was a pastor (in a denomination so no good according to my parents mindsets at the time) and I've recently heard he told my grandmother, aunt and uncle that, "Love will get our family through this," and "we are going to love them to death" when things were at an extremely difficult point in the late 70's early 80's. Back then, things were way more extreme. Some were saying to choose either family or the church, my parents wouldn't even enter home with Christmas trees, it was all very extreme. I don't remember any of that so at least it was kept hidden from me or the extremeness of it faded by the time I was in elementary school. I just say all that because I'm really just reminding myself (and others too) that is the NUMBER ONE priority and to pray that God gives you that LOVE every day, when it's hard. I know I have some "hard" days ahead where I'll need it!

It sounds like the Jonestown hype is similar to the Scientology hype going on today. On one hand, it taught me a lot about mind control when watching these documentaries and series, and then studying them myself because of some of the similarities I saw. On the other hand, I heard that these methods differ in severity and I should actually be thankful in comparison that our family was not in Scientology! Perspective is a hard and necessary, every day needed sort of thing. I'm sorry your cousin created such a situation, it seems his mindset was extrement narrowed. Obviously, that is not the nature of Jesus and your cousins conscience probably wasn't in tune with where it needed to be. There's no excuse for ruining weddings or awkward confrontational accusations. And I sorry to hear that W.L. was his hero//. I did seem to like that Walter Martin didn't care about what people thought about him, because I have a love/hate issue with that myself with people. But that doesn't mean that his motives were totally pure and even if they were, it's no excuse for your cousin to behave like that, obviously.

I feel like these "little things" are just the seed that lead us on a path away from connecting with each other. It's a really dangerous thing to think we're superior and have it right, and look at other people from that mindset. Even with myself, now, I have to force myself to stop and "let God move" it, and not control it. It's an incredibly hard thing and most of the time, I fail.

I think that's the main issue though that happens with all of us, one way or another. Our ego's or "flesh" or however you want to describe it, gets in the way of connection. Sometimes you just can't connect because there's too many walls. With some relationships, it takes more than "one day" of that sort of attitude.

I just personally think that with Lee and Martin, modalism and practices were probably secondary issues. I can see them both having a "haughty" spirit. Obviously, that's going to be a standstill. But when you're famous (they both were in their own respects) I feel like the ability to be humble is slowly taken away. When no one questions you, how can you stand to be questioned? I'm looking back at your comment now, so Walter Martin and WL had a public feud or H.H and WL? Where did it happen? Was it set up as a debate? I'd pay good money to have seen that, ha!! It would be entertaining but in reality, just sad. I'm not judging their salvation but we're to love our neighbor, not "saved" neighbor and they're not even doing that, and calling themselves Christians. I think this is a big issue bc no matter the offense, with Lee, Nee, anyone....in Christ, we're one. And definitely ONLY in Christ, bc I don't really feel anything close to WL at all. And I don't feel it's my place to say anything about that. I don't know. It's just sad these guys who probably helped many people, hurt more people by causing division.

It's so sad to hear about H.H. but after realizing all this about WL and the LC, I guess I'm not as easily shocked! After the article came out, I was told from an older full-time sister (she was widowed and I genuinely honor and respect this woman from what I've seen). Even so, she is not resistant from thought reform tactics and she believed what she was telling me when she told me that Hank Hanagraff had started attending some home meetings in CA and that he probably just had conflict meeting full time with the local church because of his position as the "Bible answer man." It was definitely hinted though that at this point, if he wasn't in the position at CRI- then he would probably be meeting with the church. Well I'm sorry, I just have a hard time believing this given that he's now a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I agree that in Europe- it looks totally dead and there may be some "life" brewing in the US in these groups but it come down to one of the basic doctrines of the faith- and a big one, right? Justification by faith. I am almost not qualified to speak on this, I'm not actually- so I take zero offense to being corrected....the E.O.C. believes in faith plus works for 99% of people. You get "free ride" if you immediately believe before you die. That was the impression I got after learning about it but I admit, I may have it wrong. With H.H., I already suspected the "We were wrong article seemed too contrived last month, really believed this was some sort of sham when H.H. converted. You don't build your reputation on being Protestant and then flip like that without your motives being questioned. That is a BIG DEAL to do that, in my opinion. He was the Bible answer man, not just Joe Schmoe going to "life church." This was his career too. It just didn't make any sense except for financial gain. So yes, I believed more that he was a con and that article called him out on it too. I didn't know there was so much controversy on this forum about it, I'll have to read about it. What do you know about him being "wined and dined", Ohio? Seeing the issues now, I can obviously see that the REAL issues in the LC were definitely not addressed by the "We were Wrong" article but at the time, of course, I had no idea. It's easy to just assume that a Christian Research Journal would accurately cover all the appropriate topics to cover! Whether past or present....

Obviously, that is not the case! I'm "scratching the surface" of some of the writings/exposing of doctrines on this forum and I'm so thankful for it!!

It's almost the New Year now... I obviously have no life and I'm using this moment to be very introspective when going into 2018. I'm fine with that though. This year has been so crazy for me in multiple ways and this site has been invaluable.

Happy New Year everyone and my prayer is that God does His work in us all

[Ohio]

When I found the Bereans forum in 2005, UntoHim and Matt Anderson (his mom wrote "Thread of Gold" book on her story) were the moderators of the LC subforum. It had other subforums on a host of other religions. With all the chaos surrounding LSM's quarantines and takeover of the GLA LC's, that forum was the goto site to expose and discuss all of LSM's crooked endeavors and writings. Numerous former elders and workers posted, and with so much excellent input from so many witnesses, it was undeniable how twisted and corrupt LSM had become.

No one really knew why the Philipino owners of the Bereans website became increasingly erratic. At one point they upgraded their software, and all the archives were lost. Everything on that site is now gone. So UntoHim was able to start this forum. In the beginning, the two forums competed, and eventually we all jumped off that sinking ship. Now, after a decade, we get noticed by all the search forums and LSM is just furious about that, but they can't file lawsuits against internet forums.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I found the Bereans forum in 2005, UntoHim and Matt Anderson (his mom wrote "Thread of Gold" book on her story) were the moderators of the LC subforum. It had other subforums on a host of other religions. With all the chaos surrounding LSM's quarantines and takeover of the GLA LC's, that forum was the goto site to expose and discuss all of LSM's crooked endeavors and writings. Numerous former elders and workers posted, and with so much excellent input from so many witnesses, it was undeniable how twisted and corrupt LSM had become.

No one really knew why the Philipino owners of the Bereans website became increasingly erratic. At one point they upgraded their software, and all the archives were lost. Everything on that site is now gone. So UntoHim was able to start this forum. In the beginning, the two forums competed, and eventually we all jumped off that sinking ship. Now, after a decade, we get noticed by all the search forums and LSM is just furious about that, but they can't file lawsuits against internet forums.

Wow. Thanks for that info- I was a little confused about why people talked about that website but couldn't find an active link for it...

I can't say I'm surprised about the lawsuits against web sites. I wonder, can you search for a list of their past/present lawsuits?

I'm just curious to how extreme it is (or isn't)....

Thank you, UntoHim, for starting this forum!! I know it's helped me, some of my family, and many others!

I've read Jane's book and communicated a bit with her, she seems really sweet. At the time, I was sort of in shock about this whole thing and didn't reach out to her more...

We're so fortunate to have this info from decades and more back available to anyone who is questioning LSM/LC practices. So thankful for the knowledge, connection, and hope going forward

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

Wow. Thanks for that info- I was a little confused about why people talked about that website but couldn't find an active link for it...
I can't say I'm surprised about the lawsuits against web sites. I wonder, can you search for a list of their past/present lawsuits?
I'm just curious to how extreme it is (or isn't)....

I once found a chart of their numerous legal proceedings. It numbered 2 or 3 dozen. Some were merely legal threats to publishers to retract anything damaging against them. The Heritage House lawsuit was taken to the Supreme Court just a few years back. We had some discussion about it.

The chart did NOT include all the lawsuits in the GLA after the quarantines. Things got really ugly. Operatives from LSM / DCP would hold "training sessions" to help the local "insurgents." Toronto Canada was seen as a huge prize for them, and 2 of their 9 elders were used by LSM. One of their elders and ministers, a former professor named Nigel Tomes, has written extensively on a whole host of topics dismantling LSM teachings. Most of his articles are referenced here.

During the Quarantine, numerous brothers in the GLA wrote. Some posted here. The website is concernedbrothers dot com or dot org. Eventually, Nigel's writings became even too "hot" for those closest to Titus Chu, and they have parted ways. Same with John Myer, who wrote "Future and Hope."

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I once found a chart of their numerous legal proceedings. It numbered 2 or 3 dozen. Some were merely legal threats to publishers to retract anything damaging against them. The Heritage House lawsuit was taken to the Supreme Court just a few years back. We had some discussion about it.

The chart did NOT include all the lawsuits in the GLA after the quarantines. Things got really ugly. Operatives from LSM / DCP would hold "training sessions" to help the local "insurgents." Toronto Canada was seen as a huge prize for them, and 2 of their 9 elders were used by LSM. One of their elders and ministers, a former professor named Nigel Tomes, has written extensively on a whole host of topics dismantling LSM teachings. Most of his articles are referenced here.

During the Quarantine, numerous brothers in the GLA wrote. Some posted here. The website is concernedbrothers dot com or dot org. Eventually, Nigel's writings became even too "hot" for those closest to Titus Chu, and they have parted ways. Same with John Myer, who wrote "Future and Hope."

Wow. Well I definitely don't believe it's ok for a church to sue unless it's some sort of equivalent to a "life or death" situation. It's not turning the other cheek, for sure. Also, I think the fact that its not talked about to members is wrong.

Would it be entirely crazy to vote on these matters? I personally would not want my tithes to go to these lawsuits. I wonder how that money is appropriated....

I find apologetic discussions very interesting but it's definitely sad to see divisiveness over them. Those debates can really go too far...

I've read the concernedbrothers page- thought it sounded well done and tactful.

We all have our opinions on things, I think the issues of the faith are the most important and maybe it's easier for me bc I'm just a little "hippy-ish" at heart, and I know it's important to study doctrine, but there has to be balance. That being said though, I'm glad there's people that aren't like me and get into the nitty gritty of the translations and meanings. Without that, we could REALLY be off course! We can all learn from each other though and we all have our share of Jesus to share with each other, hopefully

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

My grandfather was a pastor (in a denomination so no good according to my parents mindsets at the time) and I've recently heard he told my grandmother, aunt and uncle that, "Love will get our family through this," and "we are going to love them to death" when things were at an extremely difficult point in the late 70's early 80's. Back then, things were way more extreme. Some were saying to choose either family or the church, my parents wouldn't even enter home with Christmas trees, it was all very extreme. I don't remember any of that so at least it was kept hidden from me or the extremeness of it faded by the time I was in elementary school. I just say all that because I'm really just reminding myself (and others too) that is the NUMBER ONE priority and to pray that God gives you that LOVE every day, when it's hard. I know I have some "hard" days ahead where I'll need it!

Dear Kumbaya,

I love your grandfathers' words, "Love will get our family through this."

The bolded sentence above stood out to me, and yes, that's what was continually presented to us in those days. The line from Revel. 18.4, "Come out of her My people," was used for every context -- jobs, family, denominations, etc. There was a fever pitch to be separated from everything to the church, Lee's church. W. Lee would twist Paul's salvation story to reinforce this mantra. Since the Lord asked him, "why are you persecuting Me," Lee went on to say that we can never separate Christ and the church. Repeat n-e-v-e-r. Our brain cells had been rewired to think this way.

But, after abuse, infighting, and endless nonsense, we did leave. I even started visiting poor, poor, Christianity. One morning I had an "epiphany" of sorts listening to the sharing. The minister said at one point, "First the Lord, then our family, then our jobs and the church." Lights went off. My circuits got rewired.

Then I began to think about the deleterious effects on so many lives by placing Christ and the church inseparably together. Firstly, by filling our lives with endless church service and ministry messages, we got disconnected from the Lord Himself. Secondly, by filling our lives with endless church service and ministry messages, we didn't have family. By improperly connecting Christ and the Church, we ended up with only church, and not Christ or family.

Very convenient teaching for WL and the Blendeds!

[aron]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

If all this is true, its just makes me wonder how H.H. sleeps at night.

At one point, a few years back, I read the H.H. story. He took over a widely-known Christian apologetics ministry (Walter Martin) and made it his personal cash cow. He got, I'm going by memory here - something like $400,000 per year. Wife was Associate director or something like that, she got like $125,000. They got his-and-hers Lexus', membership to the swanky golf club ($2,000/year), a house worth several hundred thousand, all paid for, tax-free, by the non-profit 'ministry'.

All this was public record, because this was a non-profit corporation forced to show the 'books'.

And he left behind a trail of embittered former staffers, who ghost-wrote Hank's material for minimum wage and no credit.

Pretty sad stuff.

[Intothewind]

Kumbaya:

I imagine the embarrassment of them explaining away where their son went, and his disinterest in traditional lc lifestyle, the fervent but useless prayer, the possibility of living a comfortable lc life if I could just go along with it.