Repetition, Ritual, Religion

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

And so far you have provided only two examples of particular prayers have happened 3 times without any comment on the number other than that it was recorded has happening three times yet without even a hint that the number was significant. Yet there are numerous examples of a single prayer. And a spoken commendation to someone who "prayed" over and over until an answer was received.

Originally Posted by OBW

I have never said that the fact of praying 3 times has no meaning. But the meaning it has is about the particular prayer, not prayer in general. How can I say that? Because the one who is most qualified to create such principles did not follow it in the vast majority of the prayers of his that are recorded, and he commended the actions of one who went way beyond your supposed maximum as an example of how to persevere in prayer. It doesn't just put a pin-hole in your principle, it drives a Mack truck through it.

The problem for your argument is that despite this parable and your assumption that persistence is more than 3 times, there are no examples of anyone praying more than three times. We can suppose then that the bible's idea of persistence is to pray three times. It is significant that the bible records, in two separate instances, people praying no more than 3 times. If the bible says that Paul prayed three times, then I believe it means Paul prayed three times. This is despite the parable of the persistent widow. If we consider the persistent widow story in light of the actual examples of continual prayer in the bible, the parable shows that while an unjust ruler may need to be begged and pleaded with numerous times, how much more will God answer by only the third time. You use the parable of the persisting widow as an example to show there are no limits on prayer, however forgetting that this was in reference to an unjust judge and not God. All examples of continual repeated prayer in the bible are limited to three times.

While you point out that I provide only two examples, this is in contrast to your zero examples of anyone praying more than three times. I gave two examples but one of those examples was Christ Himself which outweighs any number of examples I could provide. The Bible never records Christ praying more than three times, even in his most difficult hour before going to the cross. From what we know about the bible's use of numbers, the number three represents completion therefore praying three times for a matter is regarded by Christ and Paul as praying completely. I can imagine that if Paul had prayed 100 times until God answered him, it would cast doubt on his relationship with God. Likewise, if Christ had prayed more than 3 times, it would cast doubt on Christ's standing as the Son of God.

The example of "continual prayer" to an unjust judge does not so much support your view but rather highlights a flaw in your argument - this parable is a parable of contrast, and is meant to show that God is not like the unjust judge. The flaw of your argument is that it rests upon viewing God like the unjust judge, who must be begged and prayed to more than three times like the unjust ruler.

While the woman had to persist continually (possibly more than three times) for the unjust judge, this parable is not saying that God will behave like the unjust judge. The parable is telling us that if an unjust ruler will be moved by continual prayer, how much more will God be moved by praying only once, twice, or three times.

We can note that the parable does not state how many times would be regarded as persistent. Praying only three times could be considered persistent, particularly when it concerns approaching an important judge or King. It seems that Christ's and Paul's application of the parable of the persistent widow was to pray no more than three times which was deemed to be sufficient. God answered Paul after only the third time therefore we could say that God's "persistence level" is three times. If God were the unjust ruler, he would "give up" by the third time.

If the parable of the persistent widow is meant to be taken literally as an example to follow, then we should be able to find examples of Christians praying more than 3 times in the bible. Jesus commended the woman's persistence however the practical examples of "continual prayer" is only three times.