Jezebel -- why we should know who she is.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When did I say it was not OK to equate the US with Sodom? I don't think anyone on this forum has denied this connection. What we have pointed out is that as a Christian who is in the world but not of the world you should expect this. Likewise, we have pointed out that the response, dictated by the Lord Jesus is to preach the gospel so that they might receive a new heart. You don't read what people actually write.

Also, I have not equated the US government with Jezebel, what I have done is equated using the US government in lawsuits by "Christians" against other Christians as something that Jezebel did. I have equated her getting the elders to accuse Naboth the Jezreelite of Blasphemy, stone him, and seize his vineyard to our present day practice of civil lawsuits for slander and libel.

It is fitting that her body becomes fertilizer in Jezreel.

Don't you remember our discussions where you tried your darnedest to prove that the US was not Sodom? To you it was not Sodom unless there were fewer than 10 righteous people.

Now you are backtracking on what you said about the US Government and Jezebel in post #88 - you said "To me, Jezebel is the spirit and nature of the current worldly system."

I think the 850 prophets that ate at her table signifies the way we govern now. We have two kinds of "prophets", scientists and pollsters.

We bring in all kinds of experts with their charts, and tables, and predictions and prognostications, etc. We also have the political strategists, pollsters, and spin meisters.

What we don't have is a government according to our conscience. This kind of administration has been very convincingly compared to a psychopath.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Don't you remember our discussions where you tried your darnedest to prove that the US was not Sodom? To you it was not Sodom unless there were fewer than 10 righteous people.

No, but apparently you do, why don't you quote it for me or refer to the post #. Drake recently demonstrated he had misread what I said, and you also have the same penchant.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

No, but apparently you do, why don't you quote it for me or refer to the post #. Drake recently demonstrated he had misread what I said, and you also have the same penchant.

ZNPaaneah, that suggests an issue with the way you write, it is open to misinterpretation.

#546

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=51438

This is a great point, what really caused God's judgement to fall on Sodom was the lack of any righteous men. God had said that if there had been 10 he wouldn't have destroyed it.

Equating the US with Sodom could only be done if you could argue that in any given city we had less than 10 righteous people.

You were hesitant to equate the US with Sodom. Not as hesitant to call it Jezebel:

"To me, Jezebel is the spirit and nature of the current worldly system."

I am not saying the worldly system is good it is clearly bad. I am saying Jezebel normally has something to do with the people of God. I don't believe the worldly system is Jezebel is correct for that reason, even though the worldly system does exemplify many of the things Jezebel represents. I would say the worldly system is influenced by Jezebel through the Roman Catholic church. I would say Protestantism has been influenced by Jezebel to a limited extent (in as much as they accept the doctrines/practices of Catholicism). But I would not say the worldly system is Jezebel.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, that suggests an issue with the way you write, it is open to misinterpretation.

#546

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=51438

This is a great point, what really caused God's judgement to fall on Sodom was the lack of any righteous men. God had said that if there had been 10 he wouldn't have destroyed it.

Equating the US with Sodom could only be done if you could argue that in any given city we had less than 10 righteous people.

Do you disagree with this?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Do you disagree with this?

Yes, to me the US is Sodom because of the widespread acceptance of homosexuality, not because of a certain number of righteous people. I think we discussed this sufficiently in that thread.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, that suggests an issue with the way you write, it is open to misinterpretation.

#546

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=51438

This is a great point, what really caused God's judgement to fall on Sodom was the lack of any righteous men. God had said that if there had been 10 he wouldn't have destroyed it.

Equating the US with Sodom could only be done if you could argue that in any given city we had less than 10 righteous people.

You were hesitant to equate the US with Sodom. Not as hesitant to call it Jezebel:

"To me, Jezebel is the spirit and nature of the current worldly system."

I am not saying the worldly system is good it is clearly bad. I am saying Jezebel normally has something to do with the people of God. I don't believe the worldly system is Jezebel is correct for that reason, even though the worldly system does exemplify many of the things Jezebel represents. I would say the worldly system is influenced by Jezebel through the Roman Catholic church. I would say Protestantism has been influenced by Jezebel to a limited extent (in as much as they accept the doctrines/practices of Catholicism). But I would not say the worldly system is Jezebel.

Post 546 in which thread?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Post 546 in which thread?

Merged Thread: Various Themes by Evangelical , easier to copy paste this:

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=51438

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, that suggests an issue with the way you write, it is open to misinterpretation.

#546

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?p=51438

This is a great point, what really caused God's judgement to fall on Sodom was the lack of any righteous men. God had said that if there had been 10 he wouldn't have destroyed it.

Equating the US with Sodom could only be done if you could argue that in any given city we had less than 10 righteous people.

You were hesitant to equate the US with Sodom. Not as hesitant to call it Jezebel:

"To me, Jezebel is the spirit and nature of the current worldly system."

I am not saying the worldly system is good it is clearly bad. I am saying Jezebel normally has something to do with the people of God. I don't believe the worldly system is Jezebel is correct for that reason, even though the worldly system does exemplify many of the things Jezebel represents. I would say the worldly system is influenced by Jezebel through the Roman Catholic church. I would say Protestantism has been influenced by Jezebel to a limited extent (in as much as they accept the doctrines/practices of Catholicism). But I would not say the worldly system is Jezebel.

There is no "misinterpretation" with what I wrote concerning Sodom and the US. You disagree. That is not a misinterpretation.

You and Drake both have openly agreed with the interpretation that Jezebel includes the woman in Matt 13 who hid the leaven in the fine meal, and with the Great Prostitute, the Great Babylon in Rev 17. This is also what WL taught.

According to our point of view, there are many different countries, nations, and empires. But in the eyes of God, the entire human government from Nimrod to Antichrist is Babylon. This human government—Babylon—has always done three things: rebel against God, exalt man, and worship idols (Gen. 11:4, 9). To worship idols is actually to worship the devil who is behind the idols. Wherever we may go, we will see that human government rebels against God, exalts man, and worships idols. (Life-Study of Daniel, Chapter 4, Section 1)

How is this any different from what I said?

"The entire human government from Nimrod to Antichrist is Babylon" -- read Rev 2

Pergamon -- worldly church -- where Satan's throne is

Thyatira -- know the deep things of Satan.

Against the suffering church there was the synagogue of Satan (2:9); with the worldly church there was the throne of Satan (2:13); and within the apostate church there are “the deep things of satan.” The religion of the synagogue, the world under Satan's throne, and the philosophy of the satanic mysteries are all used by Satan to damage and corrupt the church. (Life-Study of Revelation, Chapter 13, Section 3)

The more you speak the less I think you actually know Witness Lee's ministry.

[Drake]

ZNP,

Suggest reading the footnotes in the Recovery Version on Revelation 17 & 18 for additional clarity on what Brother Lee taught about the two aspects of Babylon.

In short Jezebel refers to the religious aspect in chapter 17 that is Mystery Babylon. . The LS Daniel excerpt you quoted refers to the material Babylon, the Great Babylon in Chapter 18.

Both have their own place and significance but are not interchangeable.

Thanks
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

Suggest reading the footnotes in the Recovery Version on Revelation 17 & 18 for additional clarity on what Brother Lee taught about the two aspects of Babylon.

In short Jezebel refers to the religious aspect in chapter 17 that is Mystery Babylon. . The LS Daniel excerpt you quoted refers to the material Babylon, the Great Babylon in Chapter 18.

Both have their own place and significance but are not interchangeable.

Thanks
Drake

I am familiar with that and have read it.

My point is that "rebelling against God, worshipping idols, and exalting man" is the spirit of Jezebel and is the spirit of the world.

1. Cutting off the prophets of God = rebelling against God.

2. Telling Ahab that she will give him the vineyard of Naboth = exalting man.

3. The elders and nobles of the city did as Jezebel said = exalting man over God.

4. Teaching my servants to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols is to worship idols.

The basic theme is the worldly system, she might be a variation on the theme, calling herself a prophetess, while others claim to be atheists. But it is still the basic spirit of the world that has operated since Babel.

They "both have their significance and place but are not interchangeable". What does this have to do with anything I have written or quoted? I made my connection to Babel. My quote from Witness Lee was from the Life Study of Daniel on Babel. Do you guys read what I have written?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There is no "misinterpretation" with what I wrote concerning Sodom and the US. You disagree. That is not a misinterpretation.

You and Drake both have openly agreed with the interpretation that Jezebel includes the woman in Matt 13 who hid the leaven in the fine meal, and with the Great Prostitute, the Great Babylon in Rev 17. This is also what WL taught.

According to our point of view, there are many different countries, nations, and empires. But in the eyes of God, the entire human government from Nimrod to Antichrist is Babylon. This human government—Babylon—has always done three things: rebel against God, exalt man, and worship idols (Gen. 11:4, 9). To worship idols is actually to worship the devil who is behind the idols. Wherever we may go, we will see that human government rebels against God, exalts man, and worships idols. (Life-Study of Daniel, Chapter 4, Section 1)

How is this any different from what I said?

The more you speak the less I think you actually know Witness Lee's ministry.

The misinterpretation is about what we believe you said which you deny.

You said US was not Sodom in our previous discussions. You have denied this (or forgotten you said this) in this thread when you said

"When did I say it was not OK to equate the US with Sodom? I don't think anyone on this forum has denied this connection."

In this thread you have also drawn a connection between worldly systems of government and Jezebel. This you seem to have also denied in recent posts.

As Drake said, you have confused Mystery Babylon with material Babylon.

There is a relationship between the two - the Roman Catholic church is the religious arm of the Roman Empire. But we should draw the distinction between the forces of evil at work in the church such as Jezebel, and the forces of evil in the worldly governments.

The distinction should be drawn because in Revelation, Jesus was concerned about Jezebel in the church in Thyatira. He was not concerned about the Roman Empire. It does not say "you have tolerated the Roman Empire and the worldly governments". It is not about material Babylon but Mystery Babylon. There is a relationship between the two but the distinction should be made.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The misinterpretation is about what we believe you said which you deny.

You said US was not Sodom in our previous discussions. You have denied this (or forgotten you said this) in this thread when you said

"When did I say it was not OK to equate the US with Sodom? I don't think anyone on this forum has denied this connection."

Enough already! Produce the quote. The only quote you have produced did not equate the US with Sodom. It is not a misinterpretation if you can't read english. It doesn't matter what you believe I said, what matters is what I did say.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

In this thread you have also drawn a connection between worldly systems of government and Jezebel. This you seem to have also denied in recent posts.

I have not denied a single word that I have written, I have denied your feeble attempt to interpret it. I did not equate Jezebel to the US, I did equate Jezebel to the spirit of the worldly system. I have provided a very clear quote from Witness Lee where he also made this equation. If you don't like it, say so. If you disagree, fine. But quit accusing me of being deceitful. Provide the quote otherwise it is slander.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

As Drake said, you have confused Mystery Babylon with material Babylon.

I have connected Babel to Babylon. You disagree fine. But you have no credibility with me.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There is a relationship between the two - the Roman Catholic church is the religious arm of the Roman Empire. But we should draw the distinction between the forces of evil at work in the church such as Jezebel, and the forces of evil in the worldly governments.

The distinction should be drawn because in Revelation, Jesus was concerned about Jezebel in the church in Thyatira. He was not concerned about the Roman Empire. It does not say "you have tolerated the Roman Empire and the worldly governments". It is not about material Babylon but Mystery Babylon. There is a relationship between the two but the distinction should be made.

Wow, spectacular reasoning. You have a woman in Matthew 13 that hides leaven in meal.

Whatever is not of the Spirit or of Christ is leaven. Leaven is something added to make things easy to eat. Without leaven, bread would be hard, and it would be difficult to eat and digest. (Life-Study of Matthew, Chapter 38, Section 4)

It is said that this is like the kingdom of heaven. It doesn't say it is like the material babylon or the religious babylon. But we know it is deceitful. Could it be the deceit and idolatry of a religious system? Sure. Could it be the deceit and idolatry of a worldly, material system? Sure. Is the material babylon of "the spirit of Christ"? If not it is leaven.

But according to your wonderful interpretation we don't need to worry about the material Babylon infecting the church? Where did you get that from? James says that pure religion is to keep yourself unspotted from the world. Is that the religious world or the material world?

Is this really how you teach the Bible? This is unbelievable.

In the church as recorded in Rev 2 you see the synagogue of Satan, then the throne of Satan, then the deep things of Satan.

Satan's worldly system is attacking and now infecting the church.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Enough already! Produce the quote. The only quote you have produced did not equate the US with Sodom. It is not a misinterpretation if you can't read english. It doesn't matter what you believe I said, what matters is what I did say.

I have not denied a single word that I have written, I have denied your feeble attempt to interpret it. I did not equate Jezebel to the US, I did equate Jezebel to the spirit of the worldly system. I have provided a very clear quote from Witness Lee where he also made this equation. If you don't like it, say so. If you disagree, fine. But quit accusing me of being deceitful. Provide the quote otherwise it is slander.

I have connected Babel to Babylon. You disagree fine. But you have no credibility with me.

Wow, spectacular reasoning. You have a woman in Matthew 13 that hides leaven in meal. It is said that this is like the kingdom of heaven. It doesn't say it is like the material babylon or the religious babylon. But we know it is deceitful. Could it be the deceit and idolatry of a religious system? Sure. Could it be the deceit and idolatry of a worldly, material system? Sure.

But according to your wonderful interpretation we don't need to worry about the material Babylon infecting the church? Where did you get that from? James says that pure religion is to keep yourself unspotted from the world. Is that the religious world or the material world?

Is this really how you teach the Bible? This is unbelievable.

I have already quoted you saying:
"Equating the US with Sodom could only be done if you could argue that in any given city we had less than 10 righteous people."

Then in this thread you said:
"When did I say it was not OK to equate the US with Sodom? I don't think anyone on this forum has denied this connection. "

Well FYI you denied that connection in our previous discussion on the US and Sodom and I don't recall anyone on this forum agreeing with me that the US is Sodom in that discussion. So both of your statements are false.


Re: "I did not equate Jezebel to the US, I did equate Jezebel to the spirit of the worldly system. "

You seemed to be referring to the US government as being part of the worldly system when you said:

I think the 850 prophets that ate at her table signifies the way we govern now. We have two kinds of "prophets", scientists and pollsters.

We bring in all kinds of experts with their charts, and tables, and predictions and prognostications, etc. We also have the political strategists, pollsters, and spin meisters.

What we don't have is a government according to our conscience. This kind of administration has been very convincingly compared to a psychopath.


"I have connected Babel to Babylon. You disagree fine. But you have no credibility with me."

I agree there is a connection between material and mystery Babylon. I disagree with you focusing on material Babylon to divert attention away from the Roman Catholic church and blaming Witness Lee for things that are nothing like what Catholicism is and has done.