Mere Christianity or Degraded Christianity?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by DistantStar

The LC sees themselves in some siege against all other Christians. As though the LC have the entire house with the rest of Christianity in some dog house outside. That's what bothers me. The mere fact that you differ from other Christians in itself shows that you are a mere part of a greater whole. This doesn't make everyone right or everyone wrong, of course. I just want you to get over this "us vs them" mentality.

We also transcend the divisions. We do so when we consider all believers in our city to be part of the one local church. We do not see the denominations in this sense. This is transcendence, and we do it without resorting to room in hall analogies. At the same time, we do not remain in the divisions while transcending them. While Lewis proposes transcending the divisions - we leave the divisions. In our concepts we have transcended the divisions, and by our practice we have left the divisions.

What about Luther. Would not any protestant not say he was part of a corrupt degraded Roman Catholicism before he left it? Would you say Luther left a wonderful denomination? Does not Protestantism itself have an "us and them" mentality in regards to the believers in Catholicism? I am trying to say that an us and them mentality is not necessarily wrong when it is light versus darkness. In relation to brothers and sisters in Christ we are transcendent and in relation to the corrupt organizations we are "us and them" mentality.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Does not Protestantism itself have an "us and them" mentality in regards to the believers in Catholicism?

Well, Protestantism is not a conscious thing with a mentality. And it is not monolithic. But from an evangelical point of view antagonism is toward Catholics is rare these days. Most Christians are trying to find ways to get along. This is not cynical. It's simply doing the best we can with the situation as it is.

I mean, I guess we could do what you do and declare ourselves right and everyone else wrong. But if everyone did that it would be total war. So we'll leave the self-righteous condemnation of other Christians to the fringe groups, and hope the world notices as little of that as possible.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We also transcend the divisions.

In your dreams.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, Protestantism is not a conscious thing with a mentality. And it is not monolithic. But from an evangelical point of view antagonism is toward Catholics is rare these days. Most Christians are trying to find ways to get along. This is not cynical. It's simply doing the best we can with the situation as it is.
I mean, I guess we could do what you do and declare ourselves right and everyone else wrong. But if everyone did that it would be total war. So we'll leave the self-righteous condemnation of other Christians to the fringe groups, and hope the world notices as little of that as possible.
In your dreams.

Of course - why we would try to get along with Satan?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Of course - why we would try to get along with Satan?

Well, I might ask the same thing in regards to you. I see Satan working in you and the LCM. I see evidence of Satan in all corners of Christianity. I also see evidence of God. That's just the way it is.

You talk about degraded Christianity, but you ignore your own degradation. You think you are something different. You aren't. We are all in this together.

The Catholic church may have elements of Thyatira, but there is no doubt the LCM is the spitting (ahem) image of Laodicea. I could just as easily ask why should I associate with something the Lord is going to spit out of his mouth. But what would be the point of that other than to wage war?

I understand having a problem with certain beliefs and practices of the Catholics. What I don't understand is why you condemn them for their errors yet give yourselves a pass on your own.

You are strict with others and tolerant of yourselves. That's backwards.

[Cal]

I want to point out that Evangelical's extreme position does not reflect the mindset of all LCMers. I have been in contact with several old friends still in the LCM in the last few years. Although they still personally feel the LCM is a proper way, even right way, they did not push that on me.

One elder told me, "We don't have a monopoly on God."

Another friend told me something to the effect that I had the right to follow my conscience and he had no right to demean that.

Another friend chuckled when I mentioned how the LCM calls Christianity "Babylon." He said, "I don't think I've heard the word 'Babylon' mentioned in fifteen years."

Obviously there are different attitudes in the LCM and Evangelical is on the extreme fringe even of that spectrum. His black-and-white, hard-edged dismissal of all groups outside the LCM reads more like a legalistic interpretation of Witness Lee's most intolerant speakings, rather than the reasoned view of a seasoned LCMer.

I wonder what he thinks of Witness Lee's late-life repentance from being so judgmental toward other Christians:

http://www.concernedbrothers.com/rep...edTheMark4.pdf

Witness Lee's words, translated from Mandarin:

"(Concerning the matter of receiving people according to God),…we coworkers in every place all need to learn, the responsible ones in every place all need to learn, the brothers and sisters in every place all need to learn…, too many things cause us to learn. We all made mistakes in this matter in the past, I myself included; I confess that, I had, for this matter and before the Lord, a very painful repentance. I am really sorry…toward the Body of Christ, also really sorry, not only toward the brothers and sisters among us, but even to those in the denominations, also really sorry toward them…(a long pause) You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another. Then you will see that, we, in the past, were wrong! Of course, denominations are wrong. The sectarianism is what God condemns the most. However, the Lord still hopes that all His children… do not have such condemnation. Such an understanding and analysis will require much effort. I say again, you must, some people, a few people, come together to read, pray, speak and say…"

Please read the commentary in the PDF as well.

I don't really mind that some in the LCM think they have a "better way." That attitude is not uncommon. It's just human nature to think the group you belong to does it better. Why else would you belong to it?

But going beyond that... Claiming that only you are right and all others are wrong, minimizing your own failures and maximizing those of others, goes beyond the pale. Not only is it the wrong spirit, it directly demeans the work of God being done in so many different manifestations of his Body.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I want to point out that Evangelical's extreme position does not reflect the mindset of all LCMers. I have been in contact with several old friends still in the LCM in the last few years. Although they still personally feel the LCM is a proper way, even right way, they did not push that on me.

I concur, but, of course, my point of reference in the GLA are those brothers quarantined by the Blendeds.

[DistantStar]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I want to point out that Evangelical's extreme position does not reflect the mindset of all LCMers.

Thanks for pointing this out. What you say is true. Much of what Evangelical says I've not heard at the LC near me. It's just good to get a grip of reality again.

Slightly off topic, but not: Some people say that the Israeli-Arab issue will be resolved the moment both sides wash each others feet.
Reading that quote of Witness Lee made me think about that. Only in humility will there be true unity.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I want to point out that Evangelical's extreme position does not reflect the mindset of all LCMers. I have been in contact with several old friends still in the LCM in the last few years. Although they still personally feel the LCM is a proper way, even right way, they did not push that on me.

One elder told me, "We don't have a monopoly on God."

Another friend told me something to the effect that I had the right to follow my conscience and he had no right to demean that.

Another friend chuckled when I mentioned how the LCM calls Christianity "Babylon." He said, "I don't think I've heard the word 'Babylon' mentioned in fifteen years."

Obviously there are different attitudes in the LCM and Evangelical is on the extreme fringe even of that spectrum. His black-and-white, hard-edged dismissal of all groups outside the LCM reads more like a legalistic interpretation of Witness Lee's most intolerant speakings, rather than the reasoned view of a seasoned LCMer.

I wonder what he thinks of Witness Lee's late-life repentance from being so judgmental toward other Christians:

http://www.concernedbrothers.com/rep...edTheMark4.pdf

Witness Lee's words, translated from Mandarin:

"(Concerning the matter of receiving people according to God),…we coworkers in every place all need to learn, the responsible ones in every place all need to learn, the brothers and sisters in every place all need to learn…, too many things cause us to learn. We all made mistakes in this matter in the past, I myself included; I confess that, I had, for this matter and before the Lord, a very painful repentance. I am really sorry…toward the Body of Christ, also really sorry, not only toward the brothers and sisters among us, but even to those in the denominations, also really sorry toward them…(a long pause) You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another. Then you will see that, we, in the past, were wrong! Of course, denominations are wrong. The sectarianism is what God condemns the most. However, the Lord still hopes that all His children… do not have such condemnation. Such an understanding and analysis will require much effort. I say again, you must, some people, a few people, come together to read, pray, speak and say…"

Please read the commentary in the PDF as well.

I don't really mind that some in the LCM think they have a "better way." That attitude is not uncommon. It's just human nature to think the group you belong to does it better. Why else would you belong to it?

But going beyond that... Claiming that only you are right and all others are wrong, minimizing your own failures and maximizing those of others, goes beyond the pale. Not only is it the wrong spirit, it directly demeans the work of God being done in so many different manifestations of his Body.

This is funny that now you seem to be defending the LCM, and pretending there is a "good side" and a "bad side". You know that your friends would tone down their language in the hope of bringing you back into the fold.

Roman Catholicism et al. is not a "different manifestation of the Body". They don't believe that. We don't believe that. Only people in fantasy land riding their rainbow unicorns believe that all denominations are just different manifestations of the Body.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is funny that now you seem to be defending the LCM, and pretending there is a "good side" and a "bad side". You know that your friends would tone down their language in the hope of bringing you back into the fold.

No, they are just mature. I can't imagine any of them talking like you do. Maybe when they were 20 years old and stupid, but not now.

And I'm not an absolutist. There are many good things about the LCM. I just target the destructive things.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Well, I might ask the same thing in regards to you. I see Satan working in you and the LCM. I see evidence of Satan in all corners of Christianity. I also see evidence of God. That's just the way it is.

You talk about degraded Christianity, but you ignore your own degradation. You think you are something different. You aren't. We are all in this together.

The Catholic church may have elements of Thyatira, but there is no doubt the LCM is the spitting (ahem) image of Laodicea. I could just as easily ask why should I associate with something the Lord is going to spit out of his mouth. But what would be the point of that other than to wage war?

I understand having a problem with certain beliefs and practices of the Catholics. What I don't understand is why you condemn them for their errors yet give yourselves a pass on your own.

You are strict with others and tolerant of yourselves. That's backwards.

The "others" are illegitimate "churches". Roman Catholicism is not a church, nor Lutheranism, etc. They are organizations of man.

They hold to the teachings but there is no life in them.

We cannot be saved by joining an "ism".

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The "others" are illegitimate "churches". Roman Catholicism is not a church, nor Lutheranism, etc. They are organizations of man.

Like the "Recovery" isn't an organization of man...

And I'm not defending Catholicism nor Lutheranism. I'm defending the right of congregations to exist and to hold their beliefs in good conscience without people like you telling them they are "false."

Please try to keep up.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Like the "Recovery" isn't an organization of man...

And I'm not defending Catholicism nor Lutheranism. I'm defending the right of congregations to exist and to hold their beliefs in good conscience without people like you telling them they are "false."

Please try to keep up.

I know that, you are trying to maintain unity by defending the divisions.

[DistantStar]

Originally Posted by DistantStar

A while back I watched this video on YouTube from this one Christian from the CRI where he apologised for them labeling the LC as a cult. He then followed it up with fellowship and respect for the LC members. Yet as I'm sitting here I realise that whereas he sees you (the LC) as part of the Church of Christ, you would see him as being part of a corrupt, degraded Christianity. That man saw you in the hall - he saw you as someone with whom he disagrees on minor stuff, yet still loves as a brother. But you don't reciprocate that.

Evangelical, have you nothing to say about this?

Originally Posted by Evangelical

While Lewis proposes transcending the divisions - we leave the divisions. In our concepts we have transcended the divisions, and by our practice we have left the divisions.

I realise that Lewis is also fallible. But if it comes to authority, I can't help but point out how you would prefer Witness Lee over the likes of C. S. Lewis. That says more than you would ever admit.

I'll just leave these here:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I am trying to say that an us and them mentality is not necessarily wrong when it is light versus darkness. In relation to brothers and sisters in Christ we are transcendent and in relation to the corrupt organizations we are "us and them" mentality.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We do so when we consider all believers in our city to be part of the one local church. We do not see the denominations in this sense.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Of course - why we would try to get along with Satan?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by DistantStar

Evangelical, have you nothing to say about this?

A while back I watched this video on YouTube from this one Christian from the CRI where he apologised for them labeling the LC as a cult. He then followed it up with fellowship and respect for the LC members. Yet as I'm sitting here I realise that whereas he sees you (the LC) as part of the Church of Christ, you would see him as being part of a corrupt, degraded Christianity. That man saw you in the hall - he saw you as someone with whom he disagrees on minor stuff, yet still loves as a brother. But you don't reciprocate that.

I realise that Lewis is also fallible. But if it comes to authority, I can't help but point out how you would prefer Witness Lee over the likes of C. S. Lewis. That says more than you would ever admit.

I'll just leave these here:

I would see him as part of degraded Christianity and still love as a brother. Not sure why you think the two are mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you have not considered that I would prefer Witness Lee over CS Lewis for reasons other than his view about the "many roomed" church. That is, although I disagree with Lewis's analogy and what it stands for, it is no different to that believed by many in Christianity, and I believed it myself at one stage. There are other more serious reasons why I think CS Lewis to be inferior to Lee.

Please consider the following found at :
http://www.jesusisprecious.org/wolve...is-no_hero.htm

Lewis belittled the Scriptures (just as some here have claimed of Lee in regards to Psalms and James):

“all Holy Scripture is in some sense – though not all parts of it in the same sense – the word of God.”

“Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place,” as “certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.” And: “The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance [Mark 13:32] grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt.... The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so.”

If people here love CS Lewis so much I should have quoted this one in the discussion I started about the Word and the Spirit:

“It is Christ Himself, not the Bible, who is the true word of God.” Not many here agree with that (I do , however).

Lewis possibly believed that other religions lead to God:

“I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know Him.”3

Lewis prayed to the dead -
“Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me."

Lewis did not believe in the Creation account of Genesis:

“I have therefore no difficulty accepting, say, the view of those scholars who tell us that the account of Creation in Genesis is derived from earlier Semitic stories which were Pagan and mythical.”

I think side by side comparison of Lee's doctrines with Lewis's would reveal Lee to be much more orthodox and in agreement with protestant beliefs than Lewis. For this reason I think you should reconsider your view that Lewis's idea regarding the church is the right one, as it is bound to be in error, which I think it is.