What is God's Economy?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by micah6v8

Simply telling a Christian to "be a good person and do good things" is incomplete. It might be burdensome (As the Israelites in the Old Testament have shown, we cannot keep all the commandments by our own strength) or lead to the Christian thinking his salvation is by his good deeds and so become proud.

So then when Witness Lee talks about "expressing God" that would be equivalent to James reference that we are justified by works in the eyes of man.

Unfortunately Witness Lee made "expressing God" equivalent to "prophesying" and then "prophesying" became equivalent to reading footnotes in a meeting. All you have to do to express God in Witness Lee's theology is to buy his book and then read a short quote during a meeting.

[micah6v8]

Yes, this is a point I also share: - Expressing God is showing an attribute of God (e.g. his love/righteousness). When we love others or live a righteous life, we are expressing God.

Expressing God does not mean expressing your understanding of God. That would involve some sleight of hand in defining things.

For the avoidance of doubt, I believe it is a good thing to share your understanding of God with others; it may help to edify them. But definitions should not be twisted).

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So then when Witness Lee talks about "expressing God" that would be equivalent to James reference that we are justified by works in the eyes of man.

Unfortunately Witness Lee made "expressing God" equivalent to "prophesying" and then "prophesying" became equivalent to reading footnotes in a meeting. All you have to do to express God in Witness Lee's theology is to buy his book and then read a short quote during a meeting.

This is not true at all.

When Lee talks about expressing God he often refers to God's nature and character such as love, life, light, holiness etc. And expressing God is not for justification to anyone, it is God's plan and purpose for mankind. We are not a complete and normal human being unless we are expressing God.

Prophesying is not about reading Lee's words but about providing something from ones own inspiration according to the leading of the Spirit. In the meetings people are discouraged from merely repeating Lee's words.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is not true at all.

When Lee talks about expressing God he often refers to God's nature and character such as love, life, light, holiness etc. And expressing God is not for justification to anyone, it is God's plan and purpose for mankind. We are not a complete and normal human being unless we are expressing God.

Prophesying is not about reading Lee's words but about providing something from ones own inspiration according to the leading of the Spirit. In the meetings people are discouraged from merely repeating Lee's words.

Witness Lee has said very clearly that the "expression of Christ is the Body". How do you build up the Body?

We also have a good hymnal and a number of good books, such as Truth Lessons, Life Lessons, the Life-study Messages, The Experience of Life, The Economy of God, and The All-Inclusive Christ. We may bring any of these books to the meeting, and when we open them, something marvelous will be there. We do not necessarily need to speak starting from the first section of a chapter, but we can use any page. We may “play ball” from any section. In a meeting you may say, “Let us read a section of Life Lessons concerning the two aspects of the Spirit.” Or you may say, “Let us speak the nine titles of the Spirit as listed in this section.” (WL, Speaking Christ for the Building up of the Body of Christ, Chapter 10, Sect 4)

All of us can speak. We have the Bible, a hymnal, the Life-study Messages, and other spiritual publications to speak. If we spoke a Life-study Message together, this would make the best message full of the divine riches and the refreshing utterances. (WL, Speaking Christ for the Building up of the Body of Christ, Chapter 4, Sect 5)

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Witness Lee has said very clearly that the "expression of Christ is the Body". How do you build up the Body?

We also have a good hymnal and a number of good books, such as Truth Lessons, Life Lessons, the Life-study Messages, The Experience of Life, The Economy of God, and The All-Inclusive Christ. We may bring any of these books to the meeting, and when we open them, something marvelous will be there. We do not necessarily need to speak starting from the first section of a chapter, but we can use any page. We may “play ball” from any section. In a meeting you may say, “Let us read a section of Life Lessons concerning the two aspects of the Spirit.” Or you may say, “Let us speak the nine titles of the Spirit as listed in this section.” (WL, Speaking Christ for the Building up of the Body of Christ, Chapter 10, Sect 4)

All of us can speak. We have the Bible, a hymnal, the Life-study Messages, and other spiritual publications to speak. If we spoke a Life-study Message together, this would make the best message full of the divine riches and the refreshing utterances. (WL, Speaking Christ for the Building up of the Body of Christ, Chapter 4, Sect 5)

We can speak from any of the messages, and even speaking the message has some value. But if you read the whole book from the beginning, it is clear that Lee wants us to know the Word of God and pray.

chapter 1:
The word is the holy word revealed in the Scriptures, either the constant Word or the instant word. If we are going to be the speaking ones in our meetings, we must let the word of Christ dwell in us richly (Col. 3:16). The riches of Christ are in His word. The word of the Lord must have adequate room within us that it may operate and minister these riches into our being. Then our speaking of the word in the meetings will be an exhibition of the riches of Christ.


So your argument that "all you have to do is quote Lee" is not true at all. Quoting Lee has some value but everyone is encouraged to speak from the Word in their heart. Many times myself and others in a meeting have not quoted Lee at all in our messages.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

We can speak from any of the messages, and even speaking the message has some value. But if you read the whole book from the beginning, it is clear that Lee wants us to know the Word of God and pray.

chapter 1:
The word is the holy word revealed in the Scriptures, either the constant Word or the instant word. If we are going to be the speaking ones in our meetings, we must let the word of Christ dwell in us richly (Col. 3:16). The riches of Christ are in His word. The word of the Lord must have adequate room within us that it may operate and minister these riches into our being. Then our speaking of the word in the meetings will be an exhibition of the riches of Christ.


So your argument that "all you have to do is quote Lee" is not true at all. Quoting Lee has some value but everyone is encouraged to speak from the Word in their heart. Many times myself and others in a meeting have not quoted Lee at all in our messages.

Yes, you have proven over and over again that one quote from Lee can contradict another quote from Lee.

In one place he says we may bring any one of his books to a meeting, open it and speak from it. In another place he says:

It is shameful to collect materials from others' books and then pass them on to the children of God. What we pass on to the children of God must be something we have seen. (Witness Lee, The Visions of Ezekiel, chapter 1, section 4)

In one place Lee warns that using the term "deification" can be interpreted as "pagan, idolatrous, and heretical" and therefore the Orthodox Christians who used this term were wrong. In another place he tells us it is OK for him to use this term because the Orthodox Christians used it years ago.

In one place Lee tells us the US is "the great eagle" the place where the believers can flee to during the great tribulation. In another he tells us that legalized marriage for gays makes it Sodom and will bring down God's judgement on it.

In one place he teaches very detailed account of how to thoroughly deal with sins. In another place he wants to just "move on" and "forget" the "ancient history" of his sins.

You yourself said it was absolutely not true that Lee taught that quoting Lee in a meeting was the exercise of the spirit, the way to build the body and express Christ. But then when you see that he did teach that it doesn't matter because he also quoted Colossians 3:16. Now the fact that he was doing spiritual gymnastics to equate Colossians 3:16 with quoting his books in the church doesn't bother you at all. Of course not.

You see if Witness Lee doesn't teach "to worship him" then it is OK with you if he teaches that he is being deified. See, he didn't use the expression "worship me". He did say that we could worship God by buying his books and speaking them during worship services, but he never said to "worship him". He did say that all other Christian teachers lacked his special vision, that he alone was teaching the up to date vision, and that his close relationship to Watchman Nee made him "the minister of the Age". If you read these messages you will see that he actually warns that we should not quote anyone else during the meeting. (I provide a quote from these messages below) But, quoting him is a spiritual exercise. But that doesn't mean he was teaching another Jesus. Sure, he used the fact that Moses was a type of Jesus to support his MOTA teaching, basically saying that Moses was a type of Watchman Nee and by extension himself.

No I get what you are saying. I repudiate it. I reject it. But you have made yourself very clear. 9 people on the Supreme court have decided that 350 million people in the US live in Sodom. In Abraham's time God couldn't find 10 righteous people in Sodom so He judged it, today you find 9 unrighteous people in the US so you judge it. Who made you God? Oh yeah, right, it was Witness Lee.

We should avoid quoting things from books without spiritual weight. Many times people like to quote from others’ books in their speaking because they think that these quotations can strengthen or confirm their points. They also may quote others to strengthen or confirm that they are learned and knowledgeable. We do not need to make such a show of our knowledge of others’ books. To refer to others’ books is a risk. We may bring in things that are not according to the truth or that are not constructive. Our speaking with wrong quotations from others’ books may distract others and destroy our intention to build up the church. To bring in quotations from other books may even create dissension, so we have to be careful when we quote others’ writings. (Witness Lee, Speaking Christ for the Building up of the Body of Christ, chapter 10, section 3)

[Ohio]

"Yes, you have proven over and over again that one quote from Lee can contradict another quote from Lee."
-- How true!

In one place Lee encourages different brothers around the Recovery to write and publish the word of God, ministering all the riches. In another place he tells us that we need a One Publication Policy throughout all the Local Churches and only LSM can publish.

Thus the troublesome GLA and Brazil were conveniently eliminated from "God's people."

Was Lee god, or maybe just a fickle dictator?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, you have proven over and over again that one quote from Lee can contradict another quote from Lee.

In one place he says we may bring any one of his books to a meeting, open it and speak from it. In another place he says:

It is shameful to collect materials from others' books and then pass them on to the children of God. What we pass on to the children of God must be something we have seen. (Witness Lee, The Visions of Ezekiel, chapter 1, section 4)

In one place Lee warns that using the term "deification" can be interpreted as "pagan, idolatrous, and heretical" and therefore the Orthodox Christians who used this term were wrong. In another place he tells us it is OK for him to use this term because the Orthodox Christians used it years ago.

In one place Lee tells us the US is "the great eagle" the place where the believers can flee to during the great tribulation. In another he tells us that legalized marriage for gays makes it Sodom and will bring down God's judgement on it.

In one place he teaches very detailed account of how to thoroughly deal with sins. In another place he wants to just "move on" and "forget" the "ancient history" of his sins.

You yourself said it was absolutely not true that Lee taught that quoting Lee in a meeting was the exercise of the spirit, the way to build the body and express Christ. But then when you see that he did teach that it doesn't matter because he also quoted Colossians 3:16. Now the fact that he was doing spiritual gymnastics to equate Colossians 3:16 with quoting his books in the church doesn't bother you at all. Of course not.

You see if Witness Lee doesn't teach "to worship him" then it is OK with you if he teaches that he is being deified. See, he didn't use the expression "worship me". He did say that we could worship God by buying his books and speaking them during worship services, but he never said to "worship him". He did say that all other Christian teachers lacked his special vision, that he alone was teaching the up to date vision, and that his close relationship to Watchman Nee made him "the minister of the Age". If you read these messages you will see that he actually warns that we should not quote anyone else during the meeting. (I provide a quote from these messages below) But, quoting him is a spiritual exercise. But that doesn't mean he was teaching another Jesus. Sure, he used the fact that Moses was a type of Jesus to support his MOTA teaching, basically saying that Moses was a type of Watchman Nee and by extension himself.

No I get what you are saying. I repudiate it. I reject it. But you have made yourself very clear. 9 people on the Supreme court have decided that 350 million people in the US live in Sodom. In Abraham's time God couldn't find 10 righteous people in Sodom so He judged it, today you find 9 unrighteous people in the US so you judge it. Who made you God? Oh yeah, right, it was Witness Lee.

We should avoid quoting things from books without spiritual weight. Many times people like to quote from others’ books in their speaking because they think that these quotations can strengthen or confirm their points. They also may quote others to strengthen or confirm that they are learned and knowledgeable. We do not need to make such a show of our knowledge of others’ books. To refer to others’ books is a risk. We may bring in things that are not according to the truth or that are not constructive. Our speaking with wrong quotations from others’ books may distract others and destroy our intention to build up the church. To bring in quotations from other books may even create dissension, so we have to be careful when we quote others’ writings. (Witness Lee, Speaking Christ for the Building up of the Body of Christ, chapter 10, section 3)

ZNPaaneah,

on the topic of gay marriage, your argument about the 9 or 10 doesn't stick, because I have already quoted statistics which show the majority of the American population supports it. It is on this basis that America is Sodom, and not merely because of the 9 or 10 law makers or judges.

Perhaps I can flip this around the other way. If America is not Sodom, then what city or country in the bible is best used as a metaphor to describe America today? Is it Jerusalem? It could possible be Tyre, the center of commercialism.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah,

on the topic of gay marriage, your argument about the 9 or 10 doesn't stick, because I have already quoted statistics which show the majority of the American population supports it. It is on this basis that America is Sodom, and not merely because of the 9 or 10 law makers or judges.

Perhaps I can flip this around the other way. If America is not Sodom, then what city or country in the bible is best used as a metaphor to describe America today? Is it Jerusalem? It could possible be Tyre, the center of commercialism.

Of course the argument still sticks. If you want to use polls on who supports and who doesn't support, then you can clearly find 10 righteous people in the US and in most cities.

Sodom was a city. You could liken Las Vegas to it. But putting the entire US as an analogy to it is a misuse of the metaphor. Read the story again. God didn't judge the city because someone was a fornicator or an adulterer. He judged the city because He couldn't find 10 righteous people. The ones He did find (Lot and his family) He pulled out from the fire, but even those (Lot's wife, etc) were severely damaged.

No one is arguing that the world, including the US is not sinful. We are well aware that it is.

[micah6v8]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

This is not true at all.

When Lee talks about expressing God he often refers to God's nature and character such as love, life, light, holiness etc. And expressing God is not for justification to anyone, it is God's plan and purpose for mankind. We are not a complete and normal human being unless we are expressing God.

I am curious to know in which books did Lee say that expressing God is in the context of God's nature and character.

In Chapter 3 section 3 of "The Intrinsic View of the Body of Christ", Witness Lee talks about exhibiting Christ. But as I mentioned earlier, he seems to equate that to prophesying. He talks about brothers sharing "in a way that is full of the natural life and the natural concept...that have nothing to do with the Body of Christ."

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...=SWTWXG6ZBLGO7

[OBW]

Originally Posted by micah6v8

In Chapter 3 section 3 of "The Intrinsic View of the Body of Christ", Witness Lee talks about exhibiting Christ. But as I mentioned earlier, he seems to equate that to prophesying. He talks about brothers sharing "in a way that is full of the natural life and the natural concept...that have nothing to do with the Body of Christ."

I think you are onto something here.

To express Christ is not to talk about him in a better way. It is not to separate from the world in a meeting and "share the riches of Christ" which is essentially a lot of talking.

Good or bad, talking is not really expressing Christ. Unless it is simply that in our speaking we are speaking as Christ would in the circumstances.

Expressing Christ is in our living. At work. At home. In the marketplace. On the streets.

It is mostly NOT about saying things about Christ. It is about living as Christ would live. Speaking in normal conversation as Christ would speak.

I am not precluding the possibility of speaking about Christ, whether in an evangelistic effort of some kind, or in one-on-one conversation that turns in that manner. But I think that we are mostly focused on speaking about Christ in either some kind of evangelistic effort or when grouped together in some kind of Christian fellowship or meeting, when that is actually the small part of our lives. That seems to consider that "expressing Christ" is mostly irrelevant in our daily living.

And it shows. We feel "free in Christ" to thumb our nose at the rules. I remember a time when an elder was speaking in a meeting about a certain brother (leading one) essentially using the example of his disregard for rules as a good example of "plundering Egypt." Go to a restaurant, order something with "no substitutions" on the menu and always ask for a substitution. (Not very significant, but an example of character.)

Did work for the "saints" and asked them to pay him through the offering box. A gift. Tax free. Plundering Egypt. (They didn't proclaim that one, but I know that it happened.)

Even when I was there, those kinds of things did not impress me positively. Before I left, I already had a negative opinion of that brother. (and he was eventually "run off" in a sense over finances.) It seemed to me to be more like not being faithful in small things. And in some not-so-small things.

This is where we express Christ. In our living.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by micah6v8

I am curious to know in which books did Lee say that expressing God is in the context of God's nature and character.

In Chapter 3 section 3 of "The Intrinsic View of the Body of Christ", Witness Lee talks about exhibiting Christ. But as I mentioned earlier, he seems to equate that to prophesying. He talks about brothers sharing "in a way that is full of the natural life and the natural concept...that have nothing to do with the Body of Christ."

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...=SWTWXG6ZBLGO7

See "THE SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE OF THE INDWELLING CHRIST", "CHRIST MAKING HIS HOME IN OUR MIND, EMOTION, AND WILL".

You are right that it includes prophesying. Our speaking, attitude, reactions, thoughts, opinions, intents, desires, character, etc, should all be expressing Christ which is expressing God.

If you Google "GOD’S NATURE BEING DISPENSED INTO US FOR OUR LIVING IN SPIRIT, LOVE, AND LIGHT" you will find something about God's love and light as well. All of these are contained in Christ.