A little background

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by Terry

True, the culture in the Local Churches does not encourage asking questions as I have learned from experience. Best case scenario is asking a question answered with silence.

I do think there needs to be a separation from what LSM publishes versus brothers and sisters meeting in the Local churches. I do believe based on LSM publications and by LSM actions, there is a different gospel preached, but that is not the case with all brothers and sisters meeting with the local churches.

In my estimation there is not a fear of God, but a fear of Man.

How do you separate what LSM publishes from what the brothers and sisters practice, believe and teach at the local churches? Everything that comes out of their mouths is content put forth by LSM.

From my experience with my dear husband, they ALL sounds alike, almost robotic like. They regurgitate what has been spoon feed to them. ALL of the written content comes from something WL said at some point during his life.
I've listened to the messages and have read some of their publications and at the end, I found myself scratching my head, asking what in the world had I just read?!?!? I work with physicians and lawyers, whom have a language all their own, and whose writings can be a bit dense and not too easy to understand, but this mumbo-jumbo paled in comparison!!! I once told my husband it was a sort of tongue-twisting brain teaser!! I must say, he didn't like that to much!

[Dave]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

How do you separate what LSM publishes from what the brothers and sisters practice, believe and teach at the local churches? Everything that comes out of their mouths is content put forth by LSM.

From my experience with my dear husband, they ALL sounds alike, almost robotic like. They regurgitate what has been spoon feed to them. ALL of the written content comes from something WL said at some point during his life.
I've listened to the messages and have read some of their publications and at the end, I found myself scratching my head, asking what in the world had I just read?!?!? I work with physicians and lawyers, whom have a language all their own, and whose writings can be a bit dense and not too easy to understand, but this mumbo-jumbo paled in comparison!!! I once told my husband it was a sort of tongue-twisting brain teaser!! I must say, he didn't like that to much!

One of the problems with some on this forum is the unwillingness to admit that the Local Church is a Christian cult. The LCs dogmatism reaches beyond Evangelical Christianity and their insistence on using their own interpretations of the Bible (such as the JWs) as well as their own prophet (e.g. Children of God) is problematic. They like to think of themselves as a continuation of the revelations of the Plymouth Brethren among others but they have gone far beyond anything the Brethren and others have taught in teaching and practices.

Their behaviors and practices are cultish but just like the Mormons they seem so "Christian" and upstanding when meeting them but your experiences with the LC sounds exactly like they would be behind their facade. (you might look at "Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change although it is more general) In any case, nothing I have said can be shared with your husband so you are in a bind. Take care.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Dave

They like to think of themselves as a continuation of the revelations of the Plymouth Brethren among others but they have gone far beyond anything the Brethren and others have taught in teaching and practices.

Do they even know the Plymouth Brethren are also known as the Exclusive Brethren? As such are sectarian in their inability to receive fellow members of the Body that doesn't meet with their sect. Same has been the status quo of the LC.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

One of the problems with some on this forum is the unwillingness to admit that the Local Church is a Christian cult.

I guess that might be me.

Now Dave have you also been willing to admit that the Unitarian Universalist Church is also a cult?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I guess that might be me.

Now Dave have you also been willing to admit that the Unitarian Universalist Church is also a cult?

What does the UU have anything to do with this conversation? Take it over to ALT VW.

The control factors which the LC administers whether it is from Anaheim or locally is clearly cultish based on the description the author of this thread described. cult=a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object, a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister, a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing. I would say the LC fits all three of those definitions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

They like to think of themselves as a continuation of the revelations of the Plymouth Brethren among others but they have gone far beyond anything the Brethren and others have taught in teaching and practices.

Have you ever studied the lineage of Exclusive Brethren (aka Peebs) which claim direct to be direct descendents of J. N. Darby?

Methinks you ought to look into them before you make such a statement. They have a hundred year head start to the LCM in aberrant teachings and practices.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you ever studied the lineage of Exclusive Brethren (aka Peebs) which claim direct to be direct descendents of J. N. Darby?

Methinks you ought to look into them before you make such a statement. They have a hundred year head start to the LCM in aberrant teachings and practices.

I realize there are many types of Brethren which I have studied to include the Open, Plymouth, Exclusive, Church of the Brethren, Bogomil Brethren, Moravian Brethren, Schwarzenau Brethren, Brethren of the Free Spirit etc I stand by my statement.

[Cal]

Dave, we've had the "cult" discussion here several times. It's one of those things everyone has an opinion about and it seems each one is valid.

For the record I think the LCM fits some of the definitions of a cult. But some think the term is so inflammatory that it is counter-productive. Sort of like calling a gay a "pervert." It seems to end discussions rather than start them.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Dave, we've had the "cult" discussion here several times. It's one of those things everyone has an opinion about and it seems each one is valid.

For the record I think the LCM fits some of the definitions of a cult. But some think the term is so inflammatory that it is counter-productive. Sort of like calling a gay a "pervert." It seems to end discussions rather than start them.

Igzy, I am sure you are correct as to how the term may be viewed. I was actually going off of UntoHim's post on #24 although he does not use the term "cult" but "another gospel". Of course boughtbyJesus also described circumstances in meetings where they were trying to force her to speak where the LC was showing cult-like practices. Their practices are worse than I thought. Like you said, we all have our opinion about the term.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Dave

Igzy, I am sure you are correct as to how the term may be viewed. I was actually going off of UntoHim's post on #24 although he does not use the term "cult" but "another gospel". Of course boughtbyJesus also described circumstances in meetings where they were trying to force her to speak where the LC was showing cult-like practices. Their practices are worse than I thought. Like you said, we all have our opinion about the term.

True we all have our opinion. By definition, cult can be very broad. That's why I believe many are uncomfortable touching the topic. However, to say the LC are sectarian is more palatable. It's transparent to see sectarian practices, attitudes, and behaviors in the LC/LSM ministry churches.
As for the phrase "another gospel", it's clear to say in the LC, they don't like to speak the gospel for the sake of bringing a man, woman, or child to salvation. If bringing someone to salvation doesn't issue into seeing the vision of the ministry LSM publishes, it's considered a waste of time.
Some may say bringing someone to salvation for the sake of adding to the Body of Christ is considered the "low gospel".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Dave, we've had the "cult" discussion here several times. It's one of those things everyone has an opinion about and it seems each one is valid.

For the record I think the LCM fits some of the definitions of a cult. But some think the term is so inflammatory that it is counter-productive. Sort of like calling a gay a "pervert." It seems to end discussions rather than start them.

Thanks for the caution bro Igzy. Dave hasn't been around that long, and doesn't know it's been discussed before. He's likely speaking from what he saw, experienced, and thinks about the local church. And he's only speaking what many exLCers have concluded about the local church.

And certainly sis boughtinChrist hasn't been around long enough to even hear the word cult even spoken of yet.

And why shouldn't she consider the possibility that her husband is caught in a cult? If it's a cult, it might help her to know what she's dealing with.

I'm not the only one that considers the LC a cult. Many exLCers that I know consider that they were in a cult, and apparently I can add Dave to the list.

And from even this distance from boughtinChrist's situation it looks like her husband is in a cult. I remember well how the church sought to distance us from our family and friends. I'm not saying the church wants to break her marriage up. But her husband sure seems to be cheating on her, with the church as his lover ... and she has her hooks in him. And just from her description it sounds like a cult.

And as far as I'm concerned, any, ANY, religious group that captures a spouse away should at least be suspected to be a cult.

[Cal]

I was just wanting to make sure Dave wasn't left wondering why no one picked up the conversation.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

I once told my husband it was a sort of tongue-twisting brain teaser!! I must say, he didn't like that to much!

I like to call it sleight of mind, similar to sleight of hand, but tricking the minds-eye instead.

I understand the impossibility of taking potshots at your husband ... sometimes the absurdity in the local church is too extreme to take, by any sober minded individual.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

I've listened to the messages and have read some of their publications and at the end, I found myself scratching my head, asking what in the world had I just read?!?!? I work with physicians and lawyers, whom have a language all their own, and whose writings can be a bit dense and not too easy to understand, but this mumbo-jumbo paled in comparison!!! I once told my husband it was a sort of tongue-twisting brain teaser!! I must say, he didn't like that to much!

They use a lot of words to say very little. It's as if the wordsmiths at LSM have a complex they need to make a distinction between the ministry they publish and other Christian ministries.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

How do you separate what LSM publishes from what the brothers and sisters practice, believe and teach at the local churches? Everything that comes out of their mouths is content put forth by LSM.

It takes time to separate. Either through personal relationships or by social media such as Facebook.
Ones who are quiet in meetings, you have to wonder. Everything is not what it seems.
Prior to moving to Washington state in 1993, I lived in Southern California. I heard the other side of the story of the late 80's turmoil so I didn't sell out for what Witness Lee was selling in Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. Yet when I was meeting with NW localities, I kept my opinion of the turmoil between my two ears.
Then there is social media. From what I have seen from Facebook, "Everything that comes out of their mouths is content put forth by LSM" can very well be categorized as lip service. I know others in the LC that appreciate contemporary Christian music as I do.

[Dave]

I was in the LC in Santa Cruz and then Detroit when your husband experienced the LC at Elden Hall. I remember attending conferences in 1970 at Elden Hall and I have to say it was a remarkable time for the LC but it was in the midst of a Jesus revolution throughout the country. Young people were getting into Jesus movements everywhere. Also, being in the LC in Santa Cruz was a different experience because we were not directly controlled by Elden Hall which gave us a lot of freedom. In the early 1970s the LC was booming and WL provided projections of increase in the US. He estimated a total increase of something like 100,000 to 150,000 people over the next decade with yearly projections of the number of increased churches and people along the way.

After Witness Lee personally asked me to move to Detroit during the first major migration I found a completely different experience in Detroit (while I was in Santa Cruz I had contacted several of my relatives in Detroit and they began a LC there with some others). First, WL sent two of his well trained disciples to Detroit to be elders which was stifling, and, second, they brought the control of the LC movement with them. In the second major migration most of us in Detroit moved to Ft. Lauderdale which was a disaster with different members arguing over who should be an elder and seeking WL's blessing. I left in 1978 after I moved to Miami in 1977. The LC in Miami wasn't much better than Lauderdale. I never looked back, felt free of essentially a controlling system and never wanted to be in a similar situation again.

I have maintained some friendships over the years with various brothers from those days who also left and the situation in the LC has steadily deteriorated. Your experience with the elders is just symptomatic of the problems within the LC. Obviously your husband after 4 years has to be pretty tight with some of the other LC members which makes it even more difficult for him and you for that matter. You probably will have to reach a waterloo at some point depending on the demands of the LC on his time. I guess children are not an issue since you haven't mentioned them. All any one can do in your situation is pray. Take care.