The Psalms are the word of Christ

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

And this was a gifted minister of the Word that dismissed this much of the Psalms, seeing nothing noteworthy? And mocking so much of it as just being "your mercy endureth forever, and ever, and ever . . . ."

To the low, God reveals His word as low. To the fallen, God reveals His word as fallen. To those burdened by their natural concepts, God reveals His word as the natural concepts of others. To those teaching vanity, God reveals his words as vain. And so on.

And we thought WL was somebody great, in God's kingdom? What an inanity. Jesus taught us that if you want to be great, be the least. This LC system we were in, the Big Boss was so great that he could tell us what verses were profitable and what could be safely ignored! Is that the kind of greatness we were seeking after?

This was a human system, cultural, organizational, and ideational. Whether and how much it was colored by its Asian roots, it was a system of the Gentiles.

Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.

26 "It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant…

The Maximum Brother's "carte blanche" authority to interpret scripture ultimately became, in the LC system, the authority to over-ride scripture. To say what was of God, and what was of man.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

To the low, God reveals His word as low. To the fallen, God reveals His word as fallen. To those burdened by their natural concepts, God reveals His word as the natural concepts of others. To those teaching vanity, God reveals his words as vain. And so on.

I'm not tracking with you here. Where does this come from? I'm not sure whether you are mocking Lee's revelation as being what he gets for not really seeking after God, or that we get the revelation we deserve.

But from my perspective, most of those revelations that you are talking about do not seem to be the revelation of (by) God, but the imagination of man concerning God (and called revelation). In other words, God is not revealing himself as vain. But the vain see God as if he is the kind of vanity they are.

I do not think that God reveals his words as the natural concepts of man. But natural man perceives them in that manner because that is what he is — natural. And since some of the words of God, coming past Lee in the train of vanquished foes was such a stench in his (Lee's) nostrils, it would seem that he was not really one of those who saw God in it, but those who saw death in it. Says something about the god he believed in.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

I'm not tracking with you here. Where does this come from?

I was continuing my meditation on Psalm 18, which I'd done in post #386. Here is a more substantial quote, with the salient parts bolded.

20 The Lord has dealt with me according to my righteousness;
according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord;
I am not guilty of turning from my God.
22 All his laws are before me;
I have not turned away from his decrees.
23 I have been blameless before him
and have kept myself from sin.
24 The Lord has rewarded me according to my righteousness,
according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight.

25 To the faithful you show yourself faithful,
to the blameless you show yourself blameless,
26 to the pure you show yourself pure,
but to the devious you show yourself shrewd.
27 You save the humble
but bring low those whose eyes are haughty.
28 You, Lord, keep my lamp burning;
my God turns my darkness into light.
29 With your help I can advance against a troop[e];
with my God I can scale a wall.

30 As for God, his way is perfect:
The Lord’s word is flawless;
he shields all who take refuge in him.

God is perfect in all His ways. His word is pure, converting the soul. His testimony is righteous (etc etc - see e.g. Psalm 19). But it says, "to the devious God shows himself as shrewd." So if you are pure, God's word is pure. But if you are corrupted, God's word is corrupted (fallen, low, etc). On a superficial level, WL was right. David was a mortal sinner. David was colored by concepts. We all are. But how does the NT deal with this? Did Peter lambast the failure of David to rise from the dead? In Psalm 16, David said that he wouldn't see corruption, and in Acts 2 Peter said that David was a prophet, and knew that God had promised him a Seed that would endure forever. In the gospels Jesus said the same thing: "David was in spirit, and he was writing about Me".

But WL instead of taking this route, essentially indicted the Psalmists for being low, and fallen, and struggling with their "natural concepts". Did Paul ever indicate this? Did Jesus, or Peter? So I am wondering if maybe God is using this word to expose WL as being himself burdened by natural concepts.

Originally Posted by OBW

I do not think that God reveals his words as the natural concepts of man. But natural man perceives them in that manner because that is what he is — natural. And since some of the words of God, coming past Lee in the train of vanquished foes was such a stench in his (Lee's) nostrils, it would seem that he was not really one of those who saw God in it, but those who saw death in it. Says something about the god he believed in.

I don't think we are thinking or writing fundamentally different things. I just used the poetic language of the psalmist to say it.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

But WL instead of taking this route, essentially indicted the Psalmists for being low, and fallen, and struggling with their "natural concepts". Did Paul ever indicate this? Did Jesus, or Peter? So I am wondering if maybe God is using this word to expose WL as being himself burdened by natural concepts.

I don't think we are thinking or writing fundamentally different things. I just used the poetic language of the psalmist to say it.

I understand what you are saying. And it does follow the type of poetry of the psalm in question. But that psalm only talks that way concerning those who are: righteous, blameless, faithful, pure, clean, humble, etc.

Those who are haughty are brought low. So God does not reveal his words as haughty to those who are haughty. He brings them low. He opposes what they are rather than responding in kind.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Those who are haughty are brought low. So God does not reveal his words as haughty to those who are haughty. He brings them low. He opposes what they are rather than responding in kind.

Well I am biased by the KJV translation (I grew up on it). Actually it seems to be kind of interesting to translate this section, so let's do a word study:

New International Version
to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the devious you show yourself shrewd.

New Living Translation
To the pure you show yourself pure, but to the wicked you show yourself hostile.

English Standard Version
with the purified you deal purely, and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous.

New American Standard Bible
With the pure You show Yourself pure, And with the perverted You show Yourself astute.

King James Bible
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
with the pure You prove Yourself pure, but with the crooked You prove Yourself shrewd.

International Standard Version
In the company of the pure you demonstrate your purity. In the company of the perverted you will appear to be perverse.

NET Bible
You prove to be reliable to one who is blameless, but you prove to be deceptive to one who is perverse.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
with pure people you are pure. [In dealing] with devious people you are clever.

Jubilee Bible 2000
With the pure thou art pure, and with the perverse thou art an adversary.

King James 2000 Bible
With the pure you will show yourself pure; and with the devious you will show yourself shrewd.

American King James Version
With the pure you will show yourself pure; and with the fraudulent you will show yourself unsavory.

American Standard Version
With the pure thou wilt show thyself pure; And with the perverse thou wilt show thyself froward.

Douay-Rheims Bible
With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

Darby Bible Translation
With the pure thou dost shew thyself pure; And with the perverse thou dost shew thyself contrary.

English Revised Version
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the perverse thou wilt shew thyself froward.

Webster's Bible Translation
With the pure thou wilt show thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt contend.

World English Bible
With the pure you will show yourself pure. With the crooked you will show yourself shrewd.

Young's Literal Translation
With the pure Thou shewest Thyself pure, And with the perverse Thou shewest Thyself a wrestler.

It seems to match the NT adage, "if you forgive you'll be forgiven, but if you don't forgive it won't be forgiven you." Or, "If you don't show mercy, no mercy will be shown you." Of course God is merciful - but if you don't give it you don't get it. What you do is what you get.

The first part is easy: with the pure God shows Himself as He is. "Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God." God is holy, and we are to be holy, as God is. But what if we're perverted? God will suddenly reveal something different to us. Not that God is perverted, or that we can make God perverted. But the sudden torment of our path will reveal the torment that was hidden within.

If we come to a large and heavily-cited section of scripture and declare it to be essentially dead letters, what does that show about our interpretative style? Perhaps God is using the Bible to reveal the heart of the interpreter. If the Bible expositor says that the Bible has degraded sections, or is partly fallen and natural writings, then I say that arguably the interpreter's ministry has degraded parts. And these are being revealed to all, by God.

But my poetic license probably didn't carry too well. Probably some of my writing that I think the point is clear, many people go, "Huh? I don't get it". Thanks for pointing out how easy it is to mis-read my ideas.

[aron]

Let me try again: When God showed WL that there were significant sections of scripture which were deficient of revelation, and simply the vain imagination of fallen men, then God was showing us, through this, that there were significant sections of WL's ministry which were deficient of revelation, and simply his vain imagination.

But maybe that is completely unrelated to that verse in Psalm 18. It certainly seemed relevant, to me.

[Ohio]

New International Version
to the pure you show yourself pure, but to the devious you show yourself shrewd.

King James Bible
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.

Originally Posted by aron

The first part is easy: with the pure God shows Himself as He is. "Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God." God is holy, and we are to be holy, as God is. But what if we're perverted? God will suddenly reveal something different to us. Not that God is perverted, or that we can make God perverted. But the sudden torment of our path will reveal the torment that was hidden within.

I have seen many examples of this in the "alternative views" section of the forum. The point is simple -- if you see problems with God, then the real problem is your own heart.

This verse helps me to understand people.

I'll have to remember this verse in Psalms 18.25

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The point is simple -- if you see problems with God, then the real problem is your own heart.

This verse helps me to understand people.

And the solution is arguably also simple. The ekklesia. The assembly. The gathered church. Fellowship.

When we come together and somebody begins to manifest a spirit that is driving them off the reservation, the collective enterprise leans toward them in prayer, in exhortation, in correction (if done very, very carefully!) and, especially, in example. The wandering star sees the others fixed in the firmament and is encouraged to resume their rightful place.

In the assembly of WL, the sole purpose of the assembly was to "amen" whatever he spoke. So if his "alternative views" got too extreme, and some of the faint-hearted slipped out the back door, there were always a few die-hards around who's mantra was that WL was always right. Even when he said the scriptures were wrong (fallen, degraded, vain, dark, etc). So we took the so-called revelation of the so-called apostle over the plain words of scriptures.

Contrast this to the reception of the scriptures in the NT writings. (see my next post).