A lost soul

[Cal]

The common symptom I see with people who never seem to shake oppressive memories of the LC--and that includes these people you see floating around the fringes of it for years, going back, trying to fix it and forever worrying about it--is this:

They never developed their own personal relationship with God.

I'm not talking about feeling or "enjoying" God or having some general appreciation of him. I'm talking about those who pray, read the word, are hungry and thirsty for righteousness, who ask, seek and knock, and do not let God go until they know they have encountered him and gotten a direct speaking from him. And they do this over and over and over again.

The LC, for all its claims of being so full of reality, steeped us in a pseudo, group-based, feelings-based spirituality that, when push came to shove, could not carry its own weight. Take away the support mechanism of peer approval, familiar culture and good feelings, and we fell apart.

Why? Because we had no real relationship with God. Our Christian experience was based on feelings, assenting to the correct doctrines, and being approved by others. Sure, we had some shallow "enjoyment." But few of us ever dealt with God to the point where (1) we really got to know him and (2) he really changed us. Very few.

The result was we remained "infants, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine." And that includes these guys who think they have to fix or get back in the LC. Sorry but that's my assessment, and my experience.

The fact is if you are still wrangling and struggling with the LC it just shows you haven't grown enough. It's that simple. You don't know the living God and His living Word enough. You don't know the Son of Righteousness with healing in his wings enough. He expects you to get to know him, not be spoon-fed by someone else for the rest of your life. You need to get serious, hunker down, pray, read the word, find a way to serve, set your sights on the present and future, and dig your salvation out of the ground. It's not going to just fall on you while you are brooding.

God doesn't respond to desperation, pleading, begging or histrionics. He responds to one thing: FAITH. That's the currency of his kingdom. And you'd darn well better get yourself some or you are going to waste your whole life worrying about something he didn't give a hoot about, just because you never really got to know him and what he really cared for.

(Note: This is a general exhortation. Not intended to be directly for "lost soul.")

[Cal]

Essentially the grip the LC had on us was this: They taught us to appreciate God, but did not teach us how to get God ourselves. We were trained to get him through the movement. Remove the movement and we couldn't get God, or so we were conditioned.

People who still struggle with memories of the LC do so because they still, to some extent, have not learned how to get God on their own. Why? Because they've never really gotten serious enough about doing so. Now, they may have worried, or fretted, or cried about it. But God doesn't respond to that. He responds to FAITH. And if you don't have faith, you're not going to get him. It's that simple. **

Did you ever wonder why the LC never talked about faith much? They reason is they don't really value it. They value assenting to the group much more than they value faith. In fact, a person of real faith is a threat to the LC because they can't control him. They want people who will wring their hands because they missed a "meeting" and don't know how to get God in any other way. The whole system is based on keeping people weak enough so they need the system. This is why they bad-mouth "spiritual giants." To them a normal Christian is one who must get everything through others, never directly from God. And they've manufactured a bunch of them.

These guys who go back after years never overcame that conditioning. They got institutionalized. They never developed their own faith in God.

** "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." Hebrews 11:6.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

These guys who go back after years never overcame that conditioning. They got institutionalized. They never developed their own faith in God.

I've seen this, and know a brother in Miami that this would apply to; who said: "I don't want to know anything negative, even if it's true."

But it wouldn't fit Hosepipe, of Elden Hall fame. Because of his time in Elden he knew what a Spirit led meeting was.

He was one of the three bros (I being one) that got excommunicated by Mel Porter in the C. in Ft. Lauderdale. But he had already walked away, telling me that there was no Holy Spirit in the meetings.

But after a few years God started bugging him to go back, he told me. Hosepipe said no. God said yes. Hose said no, God said yes. Hose said no. So forth and so on, until Hosepipe relented.

When he went back he had to face the elders, who said he could come to meetings but couldn't speak.

After a few months of silence, you know how brothers get, one of them troubled by Hosepipe's lack of joining in, started openly bugging him to testify. He looked at the elders and they shook their heads yes.

That was the beginning of the end for the C. in Ft. Lauderdale.

Eventually Hoser called them all into deciding who they were going to follow, the Holy Spirit or Witness Lee ; God or Lee? The meeting exploded with anger and fists, and almost broke out into a fight.

After that meeting the Lee loyalists went and declared the ground in Boca Raton. While the non-Lee loyalists stayed in Ft. Lauderdale.

And now, there is no C. in Ft. Lauderdale, and the C. in Boca, after 30 yrs, hasn't grown from the 40 members that started it.

And Hosepipe declares that God sent him back as a prophet.

Following God causes havoc to human institutions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And Hosepipe declares that God sent him back as a prophet.

Following God causes havoc to human institutions.

I have a close LC friend who basically says that if no one is offended by your sharing, then perhaps you are not faithful to the Lord and His word. People hating us for speaking for Christ is part of following the Lord.

Igzy shared:

"Did you ever wonder why the LC never talked about faith much? They reason is they don't really value it. They value assenting to the group much more than they value faith. In fact, a person of real faith is a threat to the LC because they can't control him. They want people who will wring their hands because they missed a "meeting" and don't know how to get God in any other way. The whole system is based on keeping people weak enough so they need the system. This is why they bad-mouth "spiritual giants." To them a normal Christian is one who must get everything through others, never directly from God. And they've manufactured a bunch of them."

This is so very true--here Igzy nails it. The LC has become a mediator between them and God. This is what creates the fear and the desperate need.

Over and over I tell my spouse that there is only ONE mediator between God and man--Christ! It never sinks in. I point out that we will each face judgment alone before Christ with no church at our side. Each of us must answer individually and this totally negates the power of the church to "get us there" since they are not there to advocate for us or take part of the blame. (This, of course, is obvious.)

And regarding the HWFMR, I note this: at the top of each page are a couple of "chunks" or Bible verses and then two full pages of what Lee or Nee has to say about those "chunks". Therefore, we are steeped in what men have to say about God's Word rather than what IT says directly to each of us in our own situation and growth. I no longer read it at all, but my spouse relies on this almost completely for "time with the Lord". It is really quite boring and full of strange statements that pop up and are seemingly accepted by everyone. There is never any serious examination or discussion about what is being taught and whether or not it is correct.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

...........Following God causes havoc to human institutions.

More like RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS... havoc among religious institutions... hmmm... well... let's see here... religous institutions are made up of humans... therefore making them human institutions...

ok. I stand corrected !

Love Ya all!
Carol

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

More like RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS... havoc among religious institutions... hmmm... well... let's see here... religous institutions are made up of humans... therefore making them human institutions...

ok. I stand corrected !

Love Ya all!
Carol

And whether right or wrong I stand with ya sister.

A book published in 1978, “Snapping” helped me understand “what just happened” when I left the LC after 9 years in 3 different local churches (because of migration) in 1978. It was the first step in a long process of understanding what I went through as I tried to extract myself from the local church experience which was so overwhelmingly addictive (the words of the oracle, the friendships that develop, the time spent pray reading, reading etc). It goes back to our “born again experience” where on pages 32-34 in “Snapping” it states, “Among Christians in America, this powerful experience is…a surprising widespread occurrence….the experience of enlightenment is a completely natural one. Stripped of its supernatural components, it is simply a moment of fundamental human growth, of overwhelming feeling and understanding when an individual pushes through to those higher levels of consciousness that distinguish us as human beings.” My experience has been that because we associate this experience with the context of our environment (a Christian fundamental church as opposed to a Buddhist temple, for example) we associate it with being a Christian and believing in God, Jesus, and the HS.

The born again experience translates to those who have gone into the local church. There is a sense of enlightenment when we become a part of the local church which often gives us the feeling that “we have found it” with “it” being the ultimate answers in our lives. Everything we think or do subsequently seemingly reinforces our original feelings of enlightenment of being in the local church where we hear or read the words of the apostle of our time. (btw—I knew WL who asked me to move from Santa Cruz, CA to Detroit, MI in 1971 which I did) The Bible is enlightened by “HIS” words. Just think how unique that experience becomes when we literally believe we have found the ultimate truth and experience in our lifetime. Wow, that is so wonderful which leads us to more enlightened experiences. How could we not become more enlightened when we have heard the oracle of the world and understand the faith which we have given ourselves? Among the 5 billion people in the world we are the lucky ones who have found the absolute truth in the universe. It is just amazing, isn’t it? That is why the blended brothers’ words (who I presume are an extension of WL since there was not an apostle who followed) are so appreciated (check out cognitive dissonance). I brought many to Christ and many into the local churches because I was a true believer so I understand quite well what it is all about.

One of the problems in the local church is that they only try to proselytize other Christians and shy away from actually going out and preaching the gospel to the unconverted. I guess that is because there is this belief that those in the local church are at a higher spiritual level and really don’t need to preach the gospel to the unsaved. Thus, the local churches don’t grow.

[Eph]

Thanks for sharing, Dave. From your other post, you might have suggested that for some left the local churches, it might be better for them just stay in that realm. Please correct me if I misunderstood that. Could you offer any insight as how to overcome the aftermath? It is not easy for some of us to stay postive after leaving the local churches. As I read along posts on the forum, I see more and more positive examples that make me very comforting and know that the Lord is taking care of us.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

A book published in 1978, “Snapping” helped me understand “what just happened” when I left the LC . . .

. . . It goes back to our “born again experience” where on pages 32-34 in “Snapping” it states, “Among Christians in America, this powerful experience is…a surprising widespread occurrence….

Those long ago smart aleck's, Socrates, Pluto, & Aristotle, 500 yrs circa before Jesus walked the earth, spoke of this sudden drastic change that came over people. They referred to it as a Katharsis.

So, bro Dave and all, "Snapping" has been going on a long long time ... prolly back into prehistory ... archaeology may one day confirm.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The common symptom I see with people who never seem to shake oppressive memories of the LC--and that includes these people you see floating around the fringes of it for years, going back, trying to fix it and forever worrying about it--is this:

They never developed their own personal relationship with God.

I'm not talking about feeling or "enjoying" God or having some general appreciation of him. I'm talking about those who pray, read the word, are hungry and thirsty for righteousness, who ask, seek and knock, and do not let God go until they know they have encountered him and gotten a direct speaking from him. And they do this over and over and over again.

The LC, for all its claims of being so full of reality, steeped us in a pseudo, group-based, feelings-based spirituality that, when push came to shove, could not carry its own weight. Take away the support mechanism of peer approval, familiar culture and good feelings, and we fell apart.

Why? Because we had no real relationship with God. Our Christian experience was based on feelings, assenting to the correct doctrines, and being approved by others. Sure, we had some shallow "enjoyment." But few of us ever dealt with God to the point where (1) we really got to know him and (2) he really changed us. Very few.

The result was we remained "infants, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine." And that includes these guys who think they have to fix or get back in the LC. Sorry but that's my assessment, and my experience.

Great comments here Igzy.

In my view, we also must expose to current LC members the methods used by LSM to rob people of their personal relationship with our saving God and Father.

One prominent technique is to obsess about the so-called "body of Christ." Their unhealthy and extreme views of "The Body" are absolutely self-serving. LSM constantly instills fears into all their members lest they became "independent." To a loyal member of the Recovery, being independent is far more serious than being sinful or mistreating other Christians.

In order to follow The Lord faithfully, we all must be willing to be condemned for being independent, acting on our own, or making decisions on our own, all the while being obedient to the Lord. The Recovery by design has created a system of man-pleasers, much the same as the Pharisees of old. Too many LC leaders have sacrificed their own conscience in order to oblige Anaheim, resulting in group think, rather than the real body of Christ, which He desires.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great comments here Igzy.

Thanks, Ohio.

And let me add, that if the LC ever really tried to develop people of genuine strong faith, that is people who truly know God and have the boldness to follow him wherever he leads, the system would fall apart. It would burst at the seams with the new wine.

They have to keep their members alive enough to fuel the system, but not so alive that they can function without it. So they hook them on their proprietary version of God (processed pablum, no firsthand knowledge), without which they feel they cannot live and for which they are utterly dependent on the movement.

So my advice to "lost soul" is grow your faith. Trust God, seek God, get to know God. Stack up experience after experience of him speaking directly to you, guiding you and coming through for you--experiences that you cannot deny and that no one can take away from you, and no snake oil salesman of any stripe can trick you into abandoning. That's what the Bible calls "the shield of faith."

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Igzy

God doesn't respond to desperation, pleading, begging or histrionics. He responds to one thing: FAITH. That's the currency of his kingdom.

This reminds me of Jesus' healing of the centurion's slave in Luke 7. The centurion never made any desperate plea per se, or even confessed Jesus as Lord, rather he simply and humbly combined his knowledge of some basic facts and combined this with some incredible faith..."Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof. Therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and let my servant be healed. For I too am a man set under authority, with soldiers under me: and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it"(vrs 6-8) Jesus was extremely impressed, not with his confession of who Jesus was, but with his raw faith in his divine healing power..."When Jesus heard these things, he marveled at him, and turning to the crowd that followed him, said, 'I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.' And when those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the servant well".(vrs 9-10)

Love + Faith. Thank you brothers for giving me these precious messages. I read the Bible, but not very good at memorizing, nor at applying. Aaron's post is so wonderful that I long for a long time. Early FTTT is not like current FTTA (maybe I am incorret also). I was occupied with other things (e.g., pursuing an orange dot on my name tag and a sister maybe), couldn't recall much reading on the Bible.

I gain greatly from the sharings. Moderator: on my computer's McAfee shows warning on this site. It took me a while to come visit.