Was Day Star poor judgment or fraud?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So far, the best scripture I have found to describe WL is Acts 20.30..

What do you think about merchandising? Notice that Mark 11:16 says that Jesus "would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts." What would Jesus think of the incessant merchandising activities of Lee and his South American counterpart Dong?

My sense is that these were indeed repentant, "converted", born-again brothers, who got bit by the "spirit of Simon Magus", and began to desire to convert genuine Christian seeking into pecuniary relations (i.e. merchandising). Daystar is a very good example of this. But it is clearly not the only example.

The most recent schism, of LSM & GLA & Arvore da Vida, seems to be about merchandising rights, if it is about anything. And my distant remembrance of LSM was that they were rather "laissez faire" (live and let live) until someone touched the cash cow. Suddenly you saw the other side, the stern one.

Rather than being a control freak, maybe Lee was a nice, pleasant, mellow, forebearing brother, as long as the money kept flowing in to Anaheim. When I was meeting there in one of the local churches, he certainly seemed fixated on numbers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

my distant remembrance of LSM was that they were rather "laissez faire" (live and let live) until someone touched the cash cow. Suddenly you saw the other side, the stern one..

Here is a quote from Terry, which seems to confirm some of my suspicions on Lee being a merchandiser:

Originally Posted by Terry

Having read portions of George Henry Lang's The Churches of God, it's quite helpful and scriptural. The problem some would have is it's counterproductive to a ministry like LSM that would depend to some degree on churches as financial resources. One could assert once a church is no longer a financial resource, it needs to be "replastered" (see Leviticus 14:33-57).

Lee did and taught some seemingly good things, which seemed to make him money (i.e. book, tape, and video sales, training fees, etc). He also did some not-so-good things (i.e. Daystar) which also made him & family some money. The common denominator was making money.

According to Terry, Lee had an accepting and tolerant view of Lang's work until it threatened the money flow. Suddenly Lang was cast aside. Unprofitable, indeed.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Lee did and taught some seemingly good things, which seemed to make him money (i.e. book, tape, and video sales, training fees, etc). He also did some not-so-good things (i.e. Daystar) which also made him & family some money. The common denominator was making money.

I might be in error to make such a claim, but there could be some merit to suggest LSM tolerated Titus's work while Lee was alive and after he died until reduction in revenue from the GLA going to LSM became apparent. The climax of the story being some GLA localities opting not to participate in the Harvest House lawsuit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I might be in error to make such a claim, but there could be some merit to suggest LSM tolerated Titus's work while Lee was alive and after he died until reduction in revenue from the GLA going to LSM became apparent. The climax of the story being some GLA localities opting not to participate in the Harvest House lawsuit.

After Lee, many, but not all, GLA saints dropped the standing order, stopped going to the "Feasts," and stopped encouraging young people to attend the FTTA.

Yet ... when it came to supporting the purchase of the La Palma campus, the GLA sent over $Million. The goal was $2K per family.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

What do you think about merchandising?

Rather than being a control freak, maybe Lee was a nice, pleasant, mellow, forbearing brother, as long as the money kept flowing in to Anaheim. When I was meeting there in one of the local churches, he certainly seemed fixated on numbers.

In that section of Acts 20, Paul gave us a great pattern. He coveted no man's money, he worked with his own hands, he cared for the weak more than his own ministry, taking the Lord's own words that it is "more blessed to give than to receive."

Witness Lee cared little for the poor and the weak. His followers became the same. Lee was consumed with furthering his ministry and his reputation. Those ends justified many rotten "means," including Daystar and merchandizing the saints.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

What do you think about merchandising? Notice that Mark 11:16 says that Jesus "would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts." What would Jesus think of the incessant merchandising activities of Lee and his South American counterpart Dong?

My sense is that these were indeed repentant, "converted", born-again brothers, who got bit by the "spirit of Simon Magus", and began to desire to convert genuine Christian seeking into pecuniary relations (i.e. merchandising). Daystar is a very good example of this. But it is clearly not the only example.

The most recent schism, of LSM & GLA & Arvore da Vida, seems to be about merchandising rights, if it is about anything. And my distant remembrance of LSM was that they were rather "laissez faire" (live and let live) until someone touched the cash cow. Suddenly you saw the other side, the stern one.

Rather than being a control freak, maybe Lee was a nice, pleasant, mellow, forebearing brother, as long as the money kept flowing in to Anaheim. When I was meeting there in one of the local churches, he certainly seemed fixated on numbers.

I consider this to refer to the error of Balaam.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I consider this to refer to the error of Balaam.

Balaam was in the OT narrative, Simon Magus in the new. Same spirit, same infection.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Balaam was in the OT narrative, Simon Magus in the new. Same spirit, same infection.

If you do a search under "trading", "merchants", and "merchandise" in one of those searchable Bibles (or a Concordance for you old-timers) it's pretty revealing what you will find. Apparently this spirit has a long and successful history.

Start with Ezekiel 27 & 28, for example. Ezekiel 28 has this:

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. (KJV)

and Ezekiel 27 has this:

29 And all that handle the oar, the mariners, and all the pilots of the sea, shall come down from their ships, they shall stand upon the land;

30 And shall cause their voice to be heard against thee, and shall cry bitterly, and shall cast up dust upon their heads, they shall wallow themselves in the ashes:

31 And they shall make themselves utterly bald for thee, and gird them with sackcloth, and they shall weep for thee with bitterness of heart and bitter wailing.

32 And in their wailing they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and lament over thee, saying, What city is like Tyrus, like the destroyed in the midst of the sea?

33 When thy wares went forth out of the seas, thou filledst many people; thou didst enrich the kings of the earth with the multitude of thy riches and of thy merchandise.

Which finds a direct parallel in Revelation 18:

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

The line goes from the holy mountain of God, conceivably even pre-Adamic, all the way to Revelation 18. You have a spirit that was once quite close to God, who can dazzle and bewitch even the stoutest and most capable into full engagement, and then lead them far astray, deep into the burning smoke. When you look at the trail of this spirit, suddenly Daystar does not look like such an anomaly. It looks right in place.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

The most recent schism, of LSM & GLA & Arvore da Vida, seems to be about merchandising rights, if it is about anything.

Setting aside all the posturing and "spiritual" jargon used by all parties to justify their behavior it is indeed a trademark i.e. merchandising rights and promotion issue. Using GLA as a case in point what were the LSM staff all upset about?

1. Titus Chu dared to publish his own works.
2. Titus Chu declined to promote LSM events and dared to schedule local and regional events when LSM had an event going on.
3. Titus Chu would not take directives from the LSM who claim to be the official bonafide "trademark" owners of the Witness Lee brand i.e Titus Chu is pirating their brand.

WITNESS LEE! WITNESS LEE! WITNESS LEE!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

What do you think about merchandising? Notice that Mark 11:16 says that Jesus "would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts." What would Jesus think of the incessant merchandising activities of Lee and his South American counterpart Dong?

My sense is that these were indeed repentant, "converted", born-again brothers, who got bit by the "spirit of Simon Magus", and began to desire to convert genuine Christian seeking into pecuniary relations (i.e. merchandising). Daystar is a very good example of this. But it is clearly not the only example.

The most recent schism, of LSM & GLA & Arvore da Vida, seems to be about merchandising rights, if it is about anything. And my distant remembrance of LSM was that they were rather "laissez faire" (live and let live) until someone touched the cash cow. Suddenly you saw the other side, the stern one.

Rather than being a control freak, maybe Lee was a nice, pleasant, mellow, forebearing brother, as long as the money kept flowing in to Anaheim. When I was meeting there in one of the local churches, he certainly seemed fixated on numbers.

Lee was a failure at business time and time again, but came to realize that he had a captive market, and so, became a success at fleecing the sheep. Daystar wasn't the only time he "took their virginity."

Premeditated fleecing makes him a con man.

Making a belt of gold and getting caught trying to smuggle it into Taipei reveals that long before Lee came to America he had dishonesty & malice in his heart.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Lee was a failure at business time and time again, but came to realize that he had a captive market, and so, became a success at fleecing the sheep. Daystar wasn't the only time he "took their virginity."

Premeditated fleecing makes him a con man.

Making a belt of gold and getting caught trying to smuggle it into Taipei reveals that long before Lee came to America he had dishonesty & malice in his heart.

You may be right. Madoff made his con a lifetime con. If WL was a con man it was a lifetime con. That will be for the Lord to judge. BTW do we get to spectate during the judgment? I mean will we observe how this all plays out at the Lord's throne of judgment?

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

do we get to spectate during the judgment? ...will we observe how this all plays out at the Lord's throne of judgment?

I think we do more than spectate. I think we testify. See Matthew 18:31, for instance: "When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened."

That is the reason that this forum exists: it is an attempt to tell everything that happened. I met with the LCs for years and never even heard the word Daystar. I did hear occasional remarks about "storms" and "turmoils". Once, when I was with two brothers, and one made passing reference of this, I asked to what he referred. He looked at the floor, said, "We don't talk about that", and the other looked away and said nothing.

This is "the age of man", when we can play make-believe. When the "day of the Lord" comes, I don't think it will be that easy to sustain our illusions.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

That is the reason that this forum exists: it is an attempt to tell everything that happened.

So far, bro Aron, you've only scratched the surface. You've got way more to learn. Stuff you would never learn while in the local church. They keep the sordid history of the LC hidden. And there's a vast hidden history.

Just google "hidden history of witness lee" to get started.

And I have something that would just blow your mind.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

They keep the sordid history of the LC hidden. And there's a vast hidden history.

Just google "hidden history of witness lee" to get started.

And I have something that would just blow your mind.

It would not be seemly for christians to be dragging one another through the proverbial mud, for all to see. And the Lord warned us not to judge one another, lest we ourselves fall under judgment. Surely if anyone has failed, I have also!

At the same time, if we (for instance) see a spirit of unrelieved mercantilism at work, combined with lording it over the saints and the elevation of the ministries of men, then it behooves us to sound a warning. I know that if I was dominated by such a spirit, hopefully someone would point it out before I arrived at the Judgment Seat, and gave me an opportunity to reconsider my ways.

And it's probably better, and less potentially harmful to one and all, to say, "We see the pattern of a spirit at work here", with as few sordid details as possible. Correction is the key, not ruin; enough have been stumbled already. Remember that when weaker ones see the failures of the stronger ones, they get discouraged, confused, and they often give up. I don't want to be responsible for the discouragement of the 'young sprouts'. They have a potentially long journey ahead of them. Best not to make it longer.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

It would not be seemly for christians to be dragging one another through the proverbial mud, for all to see. And the Lord warned us not to judge one another, lest we ourselves fall under judgment. Surely if anyone has failed, I have also!

At the same time, if we (for instance) see a spirit of unrelieved mercantilism at work, combined with lording it over the saints and the elevation of the ministries of men, then it behooves us to sound a warning. I know that if I was dominated by such a spirit, hopefully someone would point it out before I arrived at the Judgment Seat, and gave me an opportunity to reconsider my ways.

And it's probably better, and less potentially harmful to one and all, to say, "We see the pattern of a spirit at work here", with as few sordid details as possible. Correction is the key, not ruin; enough have been stumbled already. Remember that when weaker ones see the failures of the stronger ones, they get discouraged, confused, and they often give up. I don't want to be responsible for the discouragement of the 'young sprouts'. They have a potentially long journey ahead of them. Best not to make it longer.

Yes bro Aron, we're all human ... if we could just be honest about it, and not pretend otherwise.

Lee made claims. He wasn't just human, like the rest of us. He claimed to be God's oracle, apostle, and minister of the age, on the earth. These were highfalutin claims, making him something more special than just being human.

The question is, are what Lee claimed true, or not the real Lee.

And we're after the real Lee. Not the advertisement.

Since leaving the local church I've felt I followed the Spirit out. There were to me obvious problems. And then there was a sense in my spirit that there was much more wrong than met the eye. I had not any facts, just a sense in my spirit.

But since then what I sensed in my spirit has been confirmed time and time again, as the facts of what I sensed in my spirit have come out in the open.

And that's all we want. We want it all out in the light of day.