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[Truth]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

This is beside my point. I acknowledge the way I wrote my post was a (partial) defense of Titus (insofar as I said he was just for "liberty" and didn't acknowledge his belittling of the BBs).

That said, my biggest concern - indeed, one of the biggest reasons I began coming to this and the previous Bereans forum - was the kind of "authority" teachings which undergirded all the arguments. These teachings on "minister of the age" and even "vision of the age" in the particular LC iteration of it - has tremendous affects on how everyday LC members interact with their God and their fellow believers. They are tremendously insidious.

One can disagree with Titus and still have extremely angsty feelings about the kinds of arguments that founded the debate. And I mean "angst" in the sense meant by Kierkegaard: The profound and deep-seated spiritual condition of fearing that one is failing his responsibility to God.

These teachings operated/operate to steal away one's responsibility to God and hand it over to others.

Long after the debate over Titus and bed-sheets, such teachings will rear their head again in context after context.

It was no accident that the first major publications from the BBs after Witness Lee's death were "The Vision of the Age" and "Leadership in the Lord's Recovery."

It was innoculation.

Peter

Titus may not have used the word "Minister of the Age" or "One publication", however he practiced the same things as the BB. Hiddenly, he only wanted his ministry to prevail. Not only he belittled the BB, he also belittled many of his other co-workers, including John Myers.

Titus felt he was the successor of WL not the BB.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Titus may not have used the word "Minister of the Age" or "One publication", however he practiced the same things as the BB. Hiddenly, he only wanted his ministry to prevail. Not only he belittled the BB, he also belittled many of his other co-workers, including John Myers.

Titus felt he was the successor of WL not the BB.

I think the facts show this is accurate.

Many GLA leaders felt that Titus positively promoted a healthy return to the scriptures, and supported that. They saw the direction of the Blendeds to be following that of the exclusive Plymouth Brethren of old. Back in the late 90's, Titus and Jim Reetske of chicago actually visited some of the Taylor line of Brethren, and then reported on some of the strange legalisms they now promote in their sect. By implication, today's Blendeds were projected to follow their same twisted and tragic course.

A full-time worker with Titus told me that Titus told him privately that in Taiwan many saints were saying "Nee, Lee, Chu," after WL passed away. There is no question among Titus's supporters that he was more qualified than any of the Blendeds to lead the Recovery. I have always said that the Whistler quarantine had nothing to do with the Lord, the truth, or the Bible, it was just a political move to preempt their rival for control of the leadership. What sparked the Blendeds into action was Titus's travels around the world, in each place creating tensions between the saints concerning Anaheim. Had Titus been content to remain in the GLA, then the quarantine would never have occurred.

After the divisions occurred in the aftermath of Whistler, Titus returned to his controlling ways, as was evidenced with his treatment of John Myer and others. When resisting the Anaheim Blendeds, Titus cried for basic Christian liberties like the right to use contemporary worship music and the right to publish, but with John Myer, those cries for liberty and simple respect were discarded.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A full-time worker with Titus told me that Titus told him privately that in Taiwan many saints were saying "Nee, Lee, Chu," after WL passed away. There is no question among Titus's supporters that he was more qualified than any of the Blendeds to lead the Recovery. I have always said that the Whistler quarantine had nothing to do with the Lord, the truth, or the Bible, it was just a political move to preempt their rival for control of the leadership. What sparked the Blendeds into action was Titus's travels around the world, in each place creating tensions between the saints concerning Anaheim. Had Titus been content to remain in the GLA, then the quarantine would never have occurred.

IMHO Witness Lee does not have a qualified successor. His status, esteem and accomplishments within the LC system context cannot be matched by anybody. The Anaheim Politburo is led by former editorial clerks who are very good at repeating Witness Lee messages and not much else. Titus Chu has very little influence outside the GLA and some select pockets of people here and there. Dong Yu Lan's influence is more or less limited to Brazil and other parts of South America.

Titus Chu could never call an international leaders conference and expect much attendance and neither could Dong Yu Lan. The Anaheim Politburo can because they are attached to LSM and just keep repeating whatever Witness Lee said. None of them alone could do it and collectively if they ever venture out past their Witness Lee repetition process I'm sure whatever status they enjoy will diminish quickly.

Witness Lee was an irreplaceable giant within the LC system. Not that he could not literally be replaced by others but he did not raise up and cultivate or bring in leaders that could do what he could do.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

IMHO Witness Lee does not have a qualified successor. His status, esteem and accomplishments within the LC system context cannot be matched by anybody. The Anaheim Politburo is led by former editorial clerks who are very good at repeating Witness Lee messages and not much else. Titus Chu has very little influence outside the GLA and some select pockets of people here and there. Dong Yu Lan's influence is more or less limited to Brazil and other parts of South America.

Titus Chu could never call an international leaders conference and expect much attendance and neither could Dong Yu Lan. The Anaheim Politburo can because they are attached to LSM and just keep repeating whatever Witness Lee said. None of them alone could do it and collectively if they ever venture out past their Witness Lee repetition process I'm sure whatever status they enjoy will diminish quickly.

Witness Lee was an irreplaceable giant within the LC system. Not that he could not literally be replaced by others but he did not raise up and cultivate or bring in leaders that could do what he could do.

Yep, I agree.

[OBW]

I can only agree if we stipulate that Lee was a giant in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers.

Outside of that, Lee was a wannabe with a minor following that gave him a reasonably comfortable living. He was no giant in the general sense of the word. He was more like when the little doctor first appeared in "The Burbs." You first saw this growing shadow on the wall and presumed that some 7 foot tall giant was about the round the corner, only to have a rather small man appear moments later. Sort of like the man behind the curtain in the "Wizard of Oz." Just had a box full of trinkets and magic tricks — and the illusion of smoke an mirrors to make him seem larger-than-life.

He didn't have the fact of greatness. Just the appearance. (IMO)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I can only agree if we stipulate that Lee was a giant in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers.

Outside of that, Lee was a wannabe with a minor following that gave him a reasonably comfortable living. He was no giant in the general sense of the word. He was more like when the little doctor first appeared in "The Burbs." You first saw this growing shadow on the wall and presumed that some 7 foot tall giant was about the round the corner, only to have a rather small man appear moments later. Sort of like the man behind the curtain in the "Wizard of Oz." Just had a box full of trinkets and magic tricks — and the illusion of smoke an mirrors to make him seem larger-than-life.

He didn't have the fact of greatness. Just the appearance. (IMO)

Hard to agree with this. WL was an immensely talented minister and leader. Had he never ventured into strange and obscure teachings, which only served to stir opposition and subsequent lawsuits, the impact would have been far greater. You are right, however, that his own sense of greatness never did serve him or any one else. Had he been content to be just a minister, and focus only the positive things of the gospel, his outreach could have influenced many a Christian. Unfortunately, however, the negative baggage over the years tended to grow faster than his ministry.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hard to agree with this. WL was an immensely talented minister and leader. Had he never ventured into strange and obscure teachings, which only served to stir opposition and subsequent lawsuits, the impact would have been far greater. You are right, however, that his own sense of greatness never did serve him or any one else. Had he been content to be just a minister, and focus only the positive things of the gospel, his outreach could have influenced many a Christian. Unfortunately, however, the negative baggage over the years tended to grow faster than his ministry.

Well said, Ohio.

The positive aspects of WL's ministry is enjoyable. Whenever I shared some of it with my Christian friends, they were also helped and impressed.

Unfortunately, the negative parts of his ministry has overshadowed and overpowered the positive parts. The BB are trying to bring the positive parts back through a "Kosher" LSM radio program. I'm not sure how much of it has helped. It will not be long before new members discover the negative. It is best to just renounce the negative parts of WL's ministry.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by OBW

I can only agree if we stipulate that Lee was a giant in his own eyes and in the eyes of his followers.

I agree. You'll note I mentioned within the LC system context. Outside of that limited world he was not well-received or respected because he was arrogant and exclusive towards others. Also as Ohio indicated some of his teachings were extreme or I would add: at minimum the way he communicated them was extreme.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Titus Chu has very little influence outside the GLA and some select pockets of people here and there.

Titus Chu could never call an international leaders conference and expect much attendance.

Witness Lee was an irreplaceable giant within the LC system.

I have to disagree with those comments about TC. His influence in the Far East is extensive. Whether he could match WL's talents is open for debate, but he could adequately replace WL.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have to disagree with those comments about TC. His influence in the Far East is extensive. Whether he could match WL's talents is open for debate, but he could adequately replace WL.

I beg to differ on this point. The Far East is a very very large place with thousands of coworkers and elders many of them older and more experienced than Titus Chu.

Titus Chu had a limited work with some young people in Taiwan for a period of time. He also went to South Korea - sent by Witness Lee and did some limited work there. Plus later he did some work on the Mainland of China.

Apparently his work both in Taiwan and South Korea ultimately caused problems among the local leadership and coworkers. We should not forget that he would be considered like a "boy" to many especially those like Chang Wu-Chen. And the way he behaves in the GLA it should not surprise us that he became persona non grata for many key leaders in the Far East.

I could not imagine Titus Chu replacing Witness Lee anywhere but in the GLA. He does not have the stature or esteem that Witness Lee enjoyed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I beg to differ on this point. The Far East is a very very large place with thousands of coworkers and elders many of them older and more experienced than Titus Chu.

Titus Chu had a limited work with some young people in Taiwan for a period of time. He also went to South Korea - sent by Witness Lee and did some limited work there. Plus later he did some work on the Mainland of China.

Apparently his work both in Taiwan and South Korea ultimately caused problems among the local leadership and coworkers. We should not forget that he would be considered like a "boy" to many especially those like Chang Wu-Chen. And the way he behaves in the GLA it should not surprise us that he became persona non grata for many key leaders in the Far East.

What you say may be true, but do they look at the Blendeds with more respect?

Here's a serious problem with the mindset in most of the Recovery -- they have been trained for decades that "the Lord has always had one man for His move in every age."

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What you say may be true, but do they look at the Blendeds with more respect?

Here's a serious problem with the mindset in most of the Recovery -- they have been trained for decades that "the Lord has always had one man for His move in every age."

Yes that is the training for decades and a firm instilled belief which makes the Anaheim Politburo an oxymoronic entity.

As I mentioned previously I don't think that the Anaheim Politburo as a whole can replace Witness Lee and especially none of it's members individually. For this reason I don't think they do respect it but they tolerate it because it's attached to the LSM and is basically committed to publishing Witness Lee in writing and verbally repeating whatever he said. If they ever stopped doing this nobody would listen to them anymore. In and of themselves they have no status or esteem. It is all related to their attachment to Witness Lee. If you take Witness Lee out of the equation there's not much to the Anaheim Politburo.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What you say may be true, but do they look at the Blendeds with more respect?

The BB get more respect only because they literally repeat word for word everything WL says. This way no one can accuse them of anything. This is how they gain their followers.

Titus tried to gain followers by being creative in his own ways. He failed miserably.

The BB have a much larger support base because they follow WL to the teeth. Without using WL's name to back every action they take, the BB would have no support. I agree with alwayslearning on this point.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A full-time worker with Titus told me that Titus told him privately that in Taiwan many saints were saying "Nee, Lee, Chu," after WL passed away. There is no question among Titus's supporters that he was more qualified than any of the Blendeds to lead the Recovery. I have always said that the Whistler quarantine had nothing to do with the Lord, the truth, or the Bible, it was just a political move to preempt their rival for control of the leadership. What sparked the Blendeds into action was Titus's travels around the world, in each place creating tensions between the saints concerning Anaheim. Had Titus been content to remain in the GLA, then the quarantine would never have occurred.

Reading about the turmoil, there were assertions by the Blended brothers Witness Lee warned them about Titus Chu while he was still alive. Considering Titus's 10 month labors had gone on for decades, how come Witness Lee never did anything about Titus Chu? Assertions as the stand by the Blended brothers, I can only quote what Ron Kangas spoke in 2007:

"Who has all the information? There is a statement made about Brother Lee; you can’t ask Brother Lee about it. "

My analogy as I see what the Blended brothers wanted from Titus Chu would be like asking a skilled carpenter to reduce his work to sweeping up sawdust and scrap wood. Speaking from experience that is what an unskilled worker is asked to do.
As for Titus' supporters. Yes, I'm sure compared to the blended brothers Titus might be the most spiritually gifted in ministry. Of course you must consider many brothers who were just as gifted as Titus either left the LSM/lc or became persona non grata.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

My analogy as I see what the Blended brothers wanted from Titus Chu would be like asking a skilled carpenter to reduce his work to sweeping up sawdust and scrap wood. Speaking from experience that is what an unskilled worker is asked to do.

Many brothers did just that in order to remain a part of "God's N.T. Economy." They turned over their churches and their ministries to WL and the Blendeds to "do with them as they pleased." They got persuaded that this was pleasing to the Lord. Ones like PL wanted TC to be washing dishes in the kitchen in order "to transform him." That's what they did to Gene Ford for his "penance."

[Ohio]

Anyone else having trouble with the log in process?

Should we be logging in on the left side of the screen or the right? Is there a difference? After viewing a recent thread, it still shows bolded as if it still has unread posts.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Anyone else having trouble with the log in process?

Should we be logging in on the left side of the screen or the right? Is there a difference? After viewing a recent thread, it still shows bolded as if it still has unread posts.

I think that happens when someone edits a previous post.

[UntoHim]

Igzy may have a more accurate answer here, but I have had this happen recently as well. It has nothing to do with editing of a post. I believe it may have something to do with the cookie settings on your browser.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Anyone else having trouble with the log in process?

Should we be logging in on the left side of the screen or the right? Is there a difference? After viewing a recent thread, it still shows bolded as if it still has unread posts.

It doesn't matter. Both widgets work.

I think ZNP is right. The bolding means changes have been made since you last viewed the thread

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

It doesn't matter. Both widgets work.

I think ZNP is right. The bolding means changes have been made since you last viewed the thread

Both widgets work, but not all the time, at least for me.

Even after I look at the thread, it still shows bolded, unless I close it and re-log on.

So ... I've been eating all the wrong cookies ... hmmm.