What is a Glorious Church life?

[Guest1]

I was there at Elden Hall in Los Angeles... We were high school kids and we used to come about 10-15 of us from LaCrescenta.. North Glendale.. and we would sit unreligously on the front row .. lol... then after we turned 18 we 'moved in'.. Marshall Davis, Colleen Moy(Giddens),Charlie Hagens, Steve Allbright and many of our friends.. after 2 years started 'migrating' to Indianapolis,Indiana..Chicago, IL.....then to Anaheim....then La Crescenta (young peoples church).. then to the Valley 1 year

.. but as I wrote in my other post.. I never could experience Christ as my Life.. it was all religion to me.. I memorized alot of scripture .. prayreading 24/7 .. living and working with the 'saints'..meetings 24/7.. conferences and I thought I was exercising my spirit.. but after 10 years ..one night in the Valley at the Lord's table the Lord told me not to partake.. and I moved out of the 'sisters' house'..my best times were cleaning the meeting hall in Chicago at least there some were real and had real fellowship with our Lord Jesus Christ..

It took me a long time to get back to the Lord.. but He is Faithful..and he brings us to Himself and His Word.. He is our Rock..Bless His Holy Name..
His Word is living and operative and we can live by Christ.. Glory to God

[aron]

Wow. I just read Brad Barber's testimony for a second time. I have been thinking about it all day.

Can you imagine, out of 40 young men 18 of them gather and pray for the going on of one of their own, who has just suffered such a devastating loss? Brad says the presence of the Lord was there, and I can believe it. That, my friends, is an "assembly", that is "Glory in the Church". When a random and seemingly disparate group of people can drop all the differences and gather in the Lord's name, and together beseech Him, extoll Him, praise and thank Him, and call upon Him for further salvation and provision and the going on of one of their own, that is "the kingdom and the power and the glory", forever and ever amen.

And part 2 of the story, when the local LSM "facilitator" decries any experience apart from the aegis of Lee to be "of Satan", and the young brother says, "thank you very much, goodbye" and walks out. Wow. Very dramatic, very arresting. Even humorous, in a dry, Isaiah/Paul kind of way. Brad, wherever you are out there, amen, brother. Peace to you and thanks for taking a minute to share part of your story.

God is wonderful. Praises and thanks and honor and glory to Him forever and ever amen.

[Guest1]

Originally Posted by aron

Wow. I just read Brad Barber's testimony for a second time. I have been thinking about it all day.

Can you imagine, out of 40 young men 18 of them gather and pray for the going on of one of their own, who has just suffered such a devastating loss? Brad says the presence of the Lord was there, and I can believe it. That, my friends, is an "assembly", that is "Glory in the Church". When a random and seemingly disparate group of people can drop all the differences and gather in the Lord's name, and together beseech Him, extoll Him, praise and thank Him, and call upon Him for further salvation and provision and the going on of one of their own, that is "the kingdom and the power and the glory", forever and ever amen.

And part 2 of the story, when the local LSM "facilitator" decries any experience apart from the aegis of Lee to be "of Satan", and the young brother says, "thank you very much, goodbye" and walks out. Wow. Very dramatic, very arresting. Even humorous, in a dry, Isaiah/Paul kind of way. Brad, wherever you are out there, amen, brother. Peace to you and thanks for taking a minute to share part of your story.

God is wonderful. Praises and thanks and honor and glory to Him forever and ever amen.

amen..amen...

[Hope]

Dear Forum,

Read Barber's testimony and see if it adds up. I never saw or heard of the kind fantastic details he gave. Having a rainbow booklet in your pocket will cause people to cross the street? Any spin here? Based on his concluding statement what might he have said in the first statement that he did not report? Could he have characterized the lc speaker any more negatively, Borg? etc. Is he really such a dear, pure as the driven snow?

Just think about all he says and use your brain.

Hope

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Hope

Dear Forum,

Read Barber's testimony and see if it adds up. I never saw or heard of the kind fantastic details he gave. Having a rainbow booklet in your pocket will cause people to cross the street? Any spin here? Based on his concluding statement what might he have said in the first statement that he did not report? Could he have characterized the lc speaker any more negatively, Borg? etc. Is he really such a dear, pure as the driven snow?

Just think about all he says and use your brain.

Hope

Brother Hope,

I have limited time.
Shoud I spend it to read that?

Thank you.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Brother Hope,

I have limited time.
Shoud I spend it to read that?

Thank you.

Dear YPO534,

I know what you mean. This forum has surely eaten into some of the many things that seem important but the Lord seems to have drawn me into this and you can probably say the same. Yet we do need some discernment. There are a few posters on the other forum I decided to skip. A big reason I left that forum was that some just wanted to waste our time and to gum up the fellowship. Also it is important to discern who is genuine and who is sober minded.

Because I know a lot of the details around the Barber family I have little confidence in the fairness or accuracy of their posts. But all is up to you. Use the God given discernment you have.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[AndPeter]

Originally Posted by Hope

...
Because I know a lot of the details around the Barber family I have little confidence in the fairness or accuracy of their posts. ...

Dear brother Don,

One thing that struck me was when Brent shared to the effect that his father had second thoughts about the LC in the last few months of his life. The post is towards the end of his series of posts. I looked but could not locate it.

Would you care to comment on this statement as to its fairness or accuracy.

Steve

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Kat

oh no oh ok dude wow i dont want to gum up the fellowship .. so someone better spell out what the criteria is for being over there and being over here.. oh wait isnt that what mods and admin is for.. whats that ...sniff sniff... i smell religion.. and Lord forgive me for this offense.. and brothers and sisters and mods and admin..

Hello Sister Kat,

No you don't smell religion. I did not have you in mind. To know what I mean go to the other forum. Look up posts by cuttingstraight, a local church apologist. Most on this forum have concluded that there was nothing genuine with him but an attempt to prevent any progress from being made. This forum jumped from less than 10 to over 60 in just a few days due to the bad faith posters over there. There is a thread there where they are discussing the "Mass Migration."

Calm down, drink some water. No problem if you get a little over the top but if someone comments on that be happy that we can have dialogue. I have been called much worse than religious. If I get a little over the top, OBW or Thankful Jane will help me out. Maybe Nell will add a few cents worth to make sure I get the message.

Hope

[finallyprettyokay]

Hope wrote: Please tolerate me. I do not like to point out the flaws in others. I have too many flaws myself. The Lord has had mercy on me. There is hope for us all. I fear I may come accross as writing off real and dear brothers and sisters because of mistakes and sins of the past. But remember our Lord does not break a bruised reed.



I have never been completely sure what the bruised reed thing means -- I have heard completely different things about it --- amazing how different. Well, I think you mean like, don't kick a dog when he's down. God doesn't. He really does love us, with all the flaws we have. Bruised reeds that God treats with gentle drawing towards Him.

We all have people in the LC or out of the LC that we love. People who were part of our story. I have shared that Max and his wife are two of those people for me. I am telling you, I would have stayed an insane little 17 year strung out addict if he hadn't been willing to do what God told him to do in my town. And all throughout that experience he was always there for me. Sandee, too. And although I was young, we had a equality that comes from God.

There are others I could talk about --- friends and people I loved. We all have lots of names in our hearts, I think. And that is precious. Most of us become a little bit like a grizzly bear if we feel our loved ones are being hurt or threatened.

So, I have been trying to figure out how I feel about all of this. You said to use the discernment God has given us. It's extra hard to do that on line. Have we all known someone who goes to meet an 'internet romance'? Scares everyone to death. Because it is hard to have discernment on line. Okay, it's not that good of an example, but it sort of illustrates my point.

I have enjoyed your book. I admire your williness to open up your chest cavity and let us into your heart and your life. And I don't know you at all. I remember your name, but that is about all. I have this thought that you are tall. --- funny, huh? And still, I feel like I like you. Your writing about Daystar touched my heart, and I wrote to you about it.

So, I am feeling like I like you well enough, and trust you some, too. But ...but I don't want anyone to say things about people I love. We are ALL like that. And it's not just Max and his wife --- there are others that I feel protective about.

I know I am not the only one with this inward conflict. At least, I don't think I am.

So, where it leaves me is this --- I have some choices. Just ditch this whole thing right now, head in the sand before anything really makes me sad or mad . Or, try to be less thin-skinned, and see what comes.

I wasn't in on the behind the scenes politics of the whole thing like you were. And boy, howdy, am I glad I wasn't. I guess I knew plenty, but not every detail or the nitty-gritty. That makes our experience and understanding different now, just as it was then.

Does any of this make sense? I am saying to me, to you, to anyone who wants to listen ---let's just remember to not break any bruised reeds, not to kick a dog while he's down. We need to have lots of gentleness and kindness with each other.

And I will do my best to stay open to you, Don. 'Cuz I have this idea that you are a good person. Stay open to me, too.


FPO


PS --- how cute is my little dog? Cute.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Hope

I know what you mean. This forum has surely eaten into some of the many things that seem important but the Lord seems to have drawn me into this and you can probably say the same. Yet we do need some discernment. There are a few posters on the other forum I decided to skip. A big reason I left that forum was that some just wanted to waste our time and to gum up the fellowship. Also it is important to discern who is genuine and who is sober minded.

Brother Hope,

I appreciate your candor and guessed that you would respond in just this way.
I thank you for your fellowship.

[aron]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Brother Hope,

I have limited time.
Shoud I spend it to read that [Brad Barber's testimony]?

Thank you.

I liked it because of the "assembly" he cited, which is the reality of the concept you have been discussing.

There were 40 young men in an Air Force training platoon. One of them lost his brother and 3 friends in a car accident. 18 of these young men joined hands and prayed, one by one, to ask the Father for grace for this young man, that he could find the strength to go on. Brad, who came from a local church background, felt God's 'parousiea', His presence, so strongly during the asssembly that he later testified about it in a local church meeting.

His testimony was panned; they were busy at that time flogging the "rainbow booklets".

18 young men, from across the country, seemingly with nothing in common except that they are Air Force recruits, praying together for one of their own. They besought the heavenly Father, based on their faith of the saving name of Jesus. It is very rare to hear of meetings in the name of Jesus that are apart from the corrupting influence of some christian organization. So I am always happy to hear that such assemblies of God's called-out ones can, in fact, occur.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by aron

I liked it because of the "assembly" he cited, which is the reality of the concept you have been discussing.

There were 40 young men in an Air Force training platoon. One of them lost his brother and 3 friends in a car accident. 18 of these young men joined hands and prayed, one by one, to ask the Father for grace for this young man, that he could find the strength to go on. Brad, who came from a local church background, felt God's 'parousiea', His presence, so strongly during the asssembly that he later testified about it in a local church meeting.

His testimony was panned; they were busy at that time flogging the "rainbow booklets".

18 young men, from across the country, seemingly with nothing in common except that they are Air Force recruits, praying together for one of their own. They besought the heavenly Father, based on their faith of the saving name of Jesus. It is very rare to hear of meetings in the name of Jesus that are apart from the corrupting influence of some christian organization. So I am always happy to hear that such assemblies of God's called-out ones can, in fact, occur.

I appreciate the follow-up aron.

That brother is clearly and understandably bitter and he uses a lot of hurt words in getting his point across, but, it in its essence, it was a good testimony of the manifestation of God in His assembly outside the confines of the Local Church and it is not surprising that it was put down. Particulary for a brother who had "a name" within the group, a statement of his meeting God OUTSIDE the group was problematic.

As a footnote, I can tell you that I heard something similar about the rainbow booklets even before this time and although I faithfully carried one around in the top pocket of my regulation button-down shirt for nearly all of college, no one ever asked me about it. I eventually took to merely abandoning them at phone booths and bus stations like any other Christianity tract in the world.

"We have the Gold Bar! We have the Rainbow Booklets!" We were so excited to have these riches. True, it was good, high stuff but honestly? Nobody really cared very much at all, not other believers and not unbelievers.

Go take a look the response Paul got from the Aereopagites in Acts 17...

[finallyprettyokay]

Originally Posted by Hope

Dear Forum,

Read Barber's testimony and see if it adds up. I never saw or heard of the kind fantastic details he gave. Having a rainbow booklet in your pocket will cause people to cross the street? Any spin here? Based on his concluding statement what might he have said in the first statement that he did not report? Could he have characterized the lc speaker any more negatively, Borg? etc. Is he really such a dear, pure as the driven snow?

Just think about all he says and use your brain.

Hope

The Freemans acted outside of all boundaries set by any other arm of the LC. That seems clear, from all reports. The rainbow booklet having magic powers (my words, I think ) doesn't seem so far out of the realm of possiblity. We put on what were pretty much pillowcases with slogans and had our own parades. We did so many wacky things, and lots of it didn't make sense.

Hope, I wonder why you would question this brother? I am a little confused about it -- seems like there must be a story behind this, and I am not sure it is a story that we deserve to hear. Help me understand. It feels sort of personal -----

Thanks, Hope. I always appreciate your gentleness.


FPO

[OBW]

Hope,

I’ve been considering your assessments of James B and of the words written in the BARM by his sons, more particularly Brent. While I seemed to see some uncertainty in how you wanted to consider Brent’s posts, I was reminded of something I read on the BARM that few would have seen.

Outside of the Nee/Lee/LC forum are many others, including one that has a place where people simply drop in quotes that they consider noteworthy. I’ve looked at it a couple of times, and the first time, I saw a comment back by one person to another concerning the person he always quoted, J.P. Rizal. It turns out that Rizal is sort of a folk hero and philosopher of the Philippines, so I looked back at a few of the quotes attributed to him with interest. One caught my eye.

In this one quote (rather lengthy), Rizal said, in short, that the study of truth is like students seated around a statue drawing what they see. Those in the front see best, those behind less so. Behind them are those who must rely on the drawings of others. He suggested that no one could question another’s view because that was what he saw. The problem is in the notion that just because that is what I see does not mean I have seen it all, only that I have seen part very clearly. It may be true that my view is not complete and in that sense is incorrect, but when looking at that small part, it is what I see. Although out of context, it is real.

Then what is correct? When the discussion is “truth,” we seldom consider that only part of the truth is really the truth. It may be true, but it potentially paints an untrue picture. It is only in context with the whole that truth is seen in the pieces of what is true.

My addition to Rizal’s comments would be that the seeker of truth would be one who wants to see more than they already have seen. He would not be frozen to his singular perspective, but desiring to learn the rest of the picture.

I would not say that I have the best view of the LC. I’m not even sure what I think about it at times. Sometimes I think it is the most corrupt thing that ever existed and should be torn down. A minute later I think that merely exposing the corruption of the leadership coupled with some backing away from certain excessively sectarian teachings leaves a decent and vibrant Christian group. But despite some of my harsher rhetoric, I do not pretend to have all the answers or think that the LC is simply a corrupt thing that should be destroyed.

So how do we view the observations of Brent B? I would say that we accept his view as what it is. He grew up in one of the original LC households in the US. He saw the effects of what his dad’s involvement in the “ministry” did to their home life. It may not be the whole story, but I doubt that even he knows the whole story. His words are quite charged. After the childhood he had, what do we expect?

I’m not blaming James, but he may be partly to blame. I’m not saying that what Brent saw was typical. But it was something that flowed out from the ministry in some form.

When looking at the statue that is the LC, Brent B had a front row seat to view a certain portion. It may have been extreme, even for many who think there are extreme problems in the LC. It is obvious that it created a tremendous resentment that flowed out in his posts. But despite his over the top rhetoric, I doubt that he said anything that was not right there on the statue. Few others had that view. We may not like the way he said it. We may think that his manner of speech overstated things. But it is what he saw.

Can we refute it? Probably not. Is it the whole truth? Clearly not. Should we put it into the mosaic of the full description of what the LC was, or at least became? Definitely so. To pass any of it off because of the demeanor of his posts is to fall for one of the common fallacies — shooting the messenger, or ad hominem attack.

[Hope]

Hi Mike,

Very good point. I have learned a lot from the forum because of the different views. The Barber boys point of view says a lot about not only the LC but about James and Virginia and their home life. I would not say they had a front row seat but rather a front row seat to James Barber. I am sorry they suffered but their problems are much more their own family's deal than the lc. But I do agree that we can learn a lot about the lc and the James Barber version from them. One thing for sure - James was a very peculiar person and his position and the LC pattern of exalting leaders aka deputy authority caused a lot of abnormal development. Same can be said about many of the leaders, such as Ray Graver, Patsy Freeman etc. Most of the extreme problems are associated with a few personalities. Particular personalities gaining dominance combined with the deputy authority thing caused too much hurt.

The hardest part of the lc experience for me was my interactions with the big time leaders. On the other hand, being with the regular brothers and sisters was a great joy. My children loved the single brothers who lived with us at various times. My grown adult sons have very fond memories of the church in Dallas and the single brothers with whom they interacted. We have a wonderful relationship with our children and not one has anything bad to say about the church in Dallas. Several times they have been with us when some of the old timers were together and started hashing out the problems. They have scolded me many times for dwelling on the negatives when there were so many good things. They loved the gospel meetings, Jr. High and High School conferences, baby sitting with their best friends, brothers who lived with us, and the out of town saints who took hospitality during conferences.

We currently have great fellowship within the family. They would go back to the church life they knew in Dallas in a New York minute. How come the difference from the Barber clan? Well for one thing I kept my kids away from anything that came out of Anaheim. I shielded them from the Paul Hon messes. When we coordinated with various brothers in the area regarding a junior high type conference, I insisted the others helping would not put any negatives or phony expectations on the kids. I was pretty rough on the Irving brothers about some of their negative assessments and cursing of the kids. Nope, we were not going to have it. They appreciated it and got some help.

OK City was the source of plenty of slander. I got my share and even my children were slandered. When my boys heard of things being said about them, they were very upset. It was way off, not true and a shame. I stayed cool on the outside for their sake but realized there was a bad source in OK City.

Because I selectively received James' fellowship and a few times to his face told him I did not agree with some proposal, he boasted to other elders that he was going to stop Don Rutledge. I was not worthy of being stopped but his style of oppression and control was not coming to Dallas. My major regret is that I was so dull and lacking the so called djohnson "gravitas" that I did not stand up to Benson and to most of the foolish stuff from Anaheim and thus, dear brothers and sisters were hurt. My bad, my bad.

Mike, going forward as I tell the story you will read about the wonderful saints in the lc, saints like you and your beautiful family. They were everywhere and the Lord was so wonderful. Yes, His name is Wonderful. I will write about the serious problematic teachings, and the inside view of the leadership. That is the perspective I hope I can bring that many have not had. Pray for me that I can complete the task and will do all unto Christ. My desire is that the brothers and sisters can go on without the problems acquired from the past but can build on the wonderful things that were there.

Thankful Jane and others have wondered about my position. She and I also believe you have a kind of multiple choice question. Is it that the bad leaders messed things up but the basic direction was good? Is it all bad? etc. Well, it is what it is. Let us forget trying to pigeon hole us former members. The people are the main thing. Christ is the answer for all of us. We have a bright future and destiny. We need to be restored in many ways and need to have our discernment sharpened.

Finally Mike, (boy did I get carried away, I need to get back to work!!) I do not swallow anything just because someone declares their view of the statue has some validity. Get enough skewed opinions together and who knows what might pop out. But let us all keep describing our angle and be willing to consider the view of others.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Guest1]

Originally Posted by Hope

Dear Forum,
Read Barber's testimony and see if it adds up. I never saw or heard of the kind fantastic details he gave. Having a rainbow booklet in your pocket will cause people to cross the street? Any spin here? Based on his concluding statement what might he have said in the first statement that he did not report? Could he have characterized the lc speaker any more negatively, Borg? etc. Is he really such a dear, pure as the driven snow?Just think about all he says and use your brain.
Hope

i read all of both brothers' posts.. totally enjoyed them.. Hope.. did not get that either was saying they were dear or pure.. but they certainly were using their brains..

love you brother Hope.. the Lord is drawing us all to Himself.. Glory Glory to God..

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

After the god-man socks nothing would surprise me about LCS including any marketing scheme they came up with to pitch the "rainbow" booklets.

[finallyprettyokay]

Originally Posted by djohnson

After the god-man socks nothing would surprise me about LCS including any marketing scheme they came up with to pitch the "rainbow" booklets.

Okay, I give. What, oh what are god-man socks?

I wonder if we should start a thread on Wackiest Things Practiced, or something. Probably offensive. But fun, in a backwards, venting sort of way.

You know, I love picking out a smilie to use. I AM a simple sister, after all !!! :rollingeyes2:

FPO

[Ohio]

The Barber boys had some personal issues growing up in the LC's with such a notable father, a gifted teacher, and who was there in LA almost from the beginning. In this regard, some considered that the boys were not a glory to their, now deceased, father. The comments I mentioned partly reflected this fact.

But, in my mind, this begs a much bigger question -- why?

For so long, we all received numerous promises of the Lord's blessing upon our families and children, just by being "absolute for Christ and the church." Later this translated into "absolute oneness for the ministry." Not just in Barber's case, but in so many others, including my own, I kept asking "where is the promised blessing." Not only was there the lack of blessing, but, in many families, the appearance of curse.

James Barber was long regarded as one such prototype, absolute in his heart and living and teaching. As such, he should have been the most blessed. Instead, somewhat "the opposite" occurred. His family has "left the church." How could this be? In my mind this was unthinkable.

So many exclusive "claims" by the ministry were just "lies" to extract daily service from the saints. How many times did I hear, "you just give yourself to the church, and the Lord will take care of your family." That is why I was forced over the years to rethink so many LC claims.

The greatest lesson to learn from James Barber was that all his exclusive teachings should be rejected as failures. The same is true of all LSM teachings. Their continual judgments upon outsiders and their elitist claims should all be discarded. We have seen enough of that bad fruit. I do remember James' love for the Lord, His people, and His word, but like to forget the rest.

This, in my view, was part of the reason the "glorious church life" faded. Healthy patterns of Christian parenting were often discarded in favor of "the program." LSM visions of exclusive grandeur hoped to invent a "better mousetrap" and they failed.

[Hope]

As we all, desire to sort through our journey with Christ and our common experience in the lc, it is important to consider James Barber. Few brothers had such a defining influence on the lc. I spent much more time with him than I ever did with WL. In fact during the critical time period of 1973-1978, I spent much more time with Max Rapoport than I did with WL. When my next chapter comes out James and Max will be major characters and players. (Chapter three will cover 1972-1976. Then Chapter Four will cover 1977-1981. This is the defining period of time.)

Almost from the beginning, James was in a struggle for the hearts and minds of brothers and sisters outside of LA. Later Max also was in a struggle to be the most influential person in the LC network. They battled each other. I know because I was an object of their fight and heard from both of them about the other brother and what he was doing.

James was a very significant player is the down fall of Doug Krieger. He was working to bring down Max and Max to bring down James. Max won and James went to OK City where he would have little influence over WL or the work in Anaheim and a diminished role nationally. There will be plenty more to say on this line but I would like to address a very important observation Ohio has made and I quoted above.

James was the number one advocate for putting meetings and church functions above family. He despised saints who came on Sundays. He had invented a smear "SMOs" (Sunday Morning Only). I heard him use this countless times to slander some of the brethren in LA. He constantly admonished elders in private fellowship to limit the SMOs. Sometimes I heard him concede to a brother about caring for the SMOs with the statement, "well at least they are good for numbers."

No one was ever more critical of others both in the lc and in Christianity than James. This was a point Max successfully used against him as nearly everyone was consciously or unconsciously bothered by James' unending put downs. (I hear the same kind of mocking derision in the Barber sons. I must believe they learned it from their father.) Since James represented WL and always made sure all realized that he had come from WL, his behavior and speaking was the equivalent of WL's speaking and behavior. At the time, I was too naive. Until Max made it clear that James was not necessarily a spokes person for WL, it was hard to see how much was actually James. Of course, I do strongly believe that James was to a great extent a product of the shaping of WL.

Now, James truly loved Christ and desired to serve the Lord. He was a very gifted teacher of the Bible and somewhat of an evangelist. We all received spiritual help from James. Otherwise his negatives could not have taken hold.

His family is a big testimony of his negatives: for example; Church activities over caring for the family, the meetings and ministry take care of everything, do not have opinions, don't think, don't criticize the ministry, and the big one: WL is God's anointed, today's David, and thus God will bless whatever WL does etc.

Please tolerate me. I do not like to point out the flaws in others. I have too many flaws myself. The Lord has had mercy on me. There is hope for us all. I fear I may come accross as writing off real and dear brothers and sisters because of mistakes and sins of the past. But remember our Lord does not break a bruised reed.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge