The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, Johnson & VanVonderen

[Nell]

Off to See the Wizard

"Dorothy, the Scarecrow, the Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion go to the Wizard because they believe he has the power to give them what they need. Dorothy needs to go home; the Scarecrow needs a brain; the Tin Man needs a heart; and the Lion needs courage. The Wizard sends them out on a quest to get the broomstick of the Wicked Witch of the West. If they bring back the broomstick, he will give them what they need.

They accomplish their mission by melting the witch and getting the broomstick, then returning to the Wizard's place to ask him to deliver on his promise. But, in fact, he is not expecting their return, and is quite put out at being held accountable to keep his promise.

Our heroes enter the huge chamber where the Wizard of Oz conducts his business. They are met face to face by the Wizard himself, a big scary head--not a real person, just a serious face, surrounded by billowing smoke and fire, making a lot of noise. With a thunderous roar, the Wizard demands to know how these four dare to challenge him.

...It is at this moment that Dorothy's dog runs over to a small room and pulls back a curtain, and what is revealed to us is a simple, flesh-and-blood man who has long been hiding behind a mask of power. He operates behind a curtain pulling levers, making smoke, fire and noise. The result looks impressive but is only a facade. Even when exposed, he roars, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

The "Wizard" is in fact a power abuser. He controls a whole city with a facade that postures power and punishes people for noticing. In a kingdom where the problem was that the Wizard couldn't deliver, Dorothy and her crew became the problem for noticing there was a problem.

It is sad to think how often religious power-brokers control their spiritual kingdoms with power facades. They rain Bible verses on people about authority, submission, judgment, prosperity or the end times. They penalize people for noticing that "the man behind the curtain" is just human, with no authenticity or authority at all.

As a maddening last lesson from the story, after all is said and done, the Wizard tells them, "You already have what you needed all along." They had risked life and limb for what they already had.

In too many Christian families and churches, Christians are told to jump through spiritual-performance hoops to earn God's approval--something they already have for free because of Jesus' death on the cross."

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, pp. 117-118

I watched "The Wizard of Oz" again after I read this book. After Toto pulled back the curtain, Dorothy confronted the man behind the curtain saying "You're a terrible man!"

He replied to Dorothy "I'm a pretty good man. I'm just a terrible Wizard."

Nell

[finallyprettyokay]

Great stuff, Nell. Thanks. I see a lot of good discussions on the way ---

It has been years (trust me, YEARS) since I read The Wizard of Oz, but one of my favorite parts was always a description of the Emerald City. It goes into how everything in the city was green. Everything. And before you enter the city, you put on some 'special' glasses. I forget what the explanation for the glasses was (anyone have a copy of this great book?) -- but everyone in the city wore them, all the time. Clearly emerald colored lenses. Such a great example of group deception.

I'm reading The Thread of Gold. Wow.

That's all I can say, for now. Wow.


FPO

[Cal]

The glasses were simply to protect the wearers' eyes, since the Emerald City was so bright as to be blinding.

[finallyprettyokay]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The glasses were simply to protect the wearers' eyes, since the Emerald City was so bright as to be blinding.

Igzy: Perfect!!!

Do the glasses come off at some point? I just can't remember.


FPO

[Cal]

Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay

Igzy: Perfect!!!

Do the glasses come off at some point? I just can't remember.

FPO

Don't think so. The light of the city was real. It was not a product of the wizard's fakery.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nell

It is sad to think how often religious power-brokers control their spiritual kingdoms with power facades. They rain Bible verses on people about authority, submission, judgment, prosperity or the end times. They penalize people for noticing that "the man behind the curtain" is just human, with no authenticity or authority at all.

Nell

The only real authority that exists is who is welcome inside the building they administer. Elders, maybe in name only. Only real function is setting meeting times and executing directives directives from Anaheim.

[JJ]

I recently read Jeramie Rinne's 9Marks book "Church Elders - How to Shepherd God's People Like Jesus" and was stunned by how right on it is.

When describing the New Testament's requirements for elders on page 22, one of them is "Gentle". He then goes on to say there is a famous Swahili proberb that says, When the elephants fight, the grass gets trampled." and likens the elephants to combative and aggressive leaders, and the grass to the sheep in god's flock who get trampled when they fight. He cites 1 Timothy 3:3 and Titus 1:7 to back this up.

What stunned me about this particular part of Rinne's book is that it explained to me some of the baffling things I had experienced in the local churches and couldn't understand why things ended up going so wrong. I wondered if others on this site could relate as well. Please let me know.

When I looked up the proverb on an African proverb internet site, one of the commentaries noted the similarity to Matthew 23:1-36 when Jesus castigates the scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites, blind guides and blind fools for vying for places of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, but oppressing the ordinary people:

"They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them."

"For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

When describing the New Testament's requirements for elders on page 22, one of them is "Gentle". He then goes on to say there is a famous Swahili proberb that says, When the elephants fight, the grass gets trampled." and likens the elephants to combative and aggressive leaders, and the grass to the sheep in god's flock who get trampled when they fight. He cites 1 Timothy 3:3 and Titus 1:7 to back this up.

What stunned me about this particular part of Rinne's book is that it explained to me some of the baffling things I had experienced in the local churches and couldn't understand why things ended up going so wrong. I wondered if others on this site could relate as well. Please let me know.

There is no way to understand our history in the LC's unless one is honest and examines the facts of history. Then, after scrutinizing the record, one must arrive at the conclusion that corrupt leaders, like elephants, have trampled God's children for decades. Then, when other upright men of God speak their conscience in protest, we have a battle. LSM liked to spin these battles as "storms," or "rebellions," or attacks from God's enemy, but actually were simply fleshly leaders abusing God's people.

Personally, back in 2003-2004 after the so-called "Phoenix Accord" between LSM and GLA leaders, rumblings of "elephants in the distance" caused me to research Brethren history, especially the events surrounding their splits from 1845-1850. Without understanding our exclusive predecessors, I could never have truly understood our present day leaders.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There is no way to understand our history in the LC's unless one is honest and examines the facts of history. Then, after scrutinizing the record, one must arrive at the conclusion that corrupt leaders, like elephants, have trampled God's children for decades. Then, when other upright men of God speak their conscience in protest, we have a battle. LSM liked to spin these battles as "storms," or "rebellions," or attacks from God's enemy, but actually were simply fleshly leaders abusing God's people.

Personally, back in 2003-2004 after the so-called "Phoenix Accord" between LSM and GLA leaders, rumblings of "elephants in the distance" caused me to research Brethren history, especially the events surrounding their splits from 1845-1850. Without understanding our exclusive predecessors, I could never have truly understood our present day leaders.

LSM spins propaganda that's certain. On this Father's day, I was speaking with my dad. My grandfather had served in Philippines during WWII. It's been known Japanese soldiers were indoctrinated the Americans were blood-thirsty boogeymen. Deprived of any compassion.
Much the same Witness Lee and Blended coworkers have indoctrinated the local churches with their own propaganda of serving brothers who have left the LC fellowship.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There is no way to understand our history in the LC's unless one is honest and examines the facts of history. Then, after scrutinizing the record, one must arrive at the conclusion that corrupt leaders, like elephants, have trampled God's children for decades. Then, when other upright men of God speak their conscience in protest, we have a battle. LSM liked to spin these battles as "storms," or "rebellions," or attacks from God's enemy, but actually were simply fleshly leaders abusing God's people.

Personally, back in 2003-2004 after the so-called "Phoenix Accord" between LSM and GLA leaders, rumblings of "elephants in the distance" caused me to research Brethren history, especially the events surrounding their splits from 1845-1850. Without understanding our exclusive predecessors, I could never have truly understood our present day leaders.

A belated thanks for your post on this, Ohio. Your thoughts and experience are helpful, as I'm still going through the healing process from a trampling.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Terry

LSM spins propaganda that's certain. On this Father's day, I was speaking with my dad. My grandfather had served in Philippines during WWII. It's been known Japanese soldiers were indoctrinated the Americans were blood-thirsty boogeymen. Deprived of any compassion.
Much the same Witness Lee and Blended coworkers have indoctrinated the local churches with their own propaganda of serving brothers who have left the LC fellowship.

A belated thanks for your thoughts too, Terry.

JJ

[Nell]

This brief reference is a favorite of mine and may get you started!

Originally Posted by Nell

Off to See the Wizard

"Dorothy, the Scarecrow, the Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion go to the Wizard because they believe he has the power to give them what they need. Dorothy needs to go home; the Scarecrow needs a brain; the Tin Man needs a heart; and the Lion needs courage. The Wizard sends them out on a quest to get the broomstick of the Wicked Witch of the West. If they bring back the broomstick, he will give them what they need.

They accomplish their mission by melting the witch and getting the broomstick, then returning to the Wizard's place to ask him to deliver on his promise. But, in fact, he is not expecting their return, and is quite put out at being held accountable to keep his promise.

Our heroes enter the huge chamber where the Wizard of Oz conducts his business. They are met face to face by the Wizard himself, a big scary head--not a real person, just a serious face, surrounded by billowing smoke and fire, making a lot of noise. With a thunderous roar, the Wizard demands to know how these four dare to challenge him.

...It is at this moment that Dorothy's dog runs over to a small room and pulls back a curtain, and what is revealed to us is a simple, flesh-and-blood man who has long been hiding behind a mask of power. He operates behind a curtain pulling levers, making smoke, fire and noise. The result looks impressive but is only a facade. Even when exposed, he roars, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

The "Wizard" is in fact a power abuser. He controls a whole city with a facade that postures power and punishes people for noticing. In a kingdom where the problem was that the Wizard couldn't deliver, Dorothy and her crew became the problem for noticing there was a problem.

It is sad to think how often religious power-brokers control their spiritual kingdoms with power facades. They rain Bible verses on people about authority, submission, judgment, prosperity or the end times. They penalize people for noticing that "the man behind the curtain" is just human, with no authenticity or authority at all.

As a maddening last lesson from the story, after all is said and done, the Wizard tells them, "You already have what you needed all along." They had risked life and limb for what they already had.

In too many Christian families and churches, Christians are told to jump through spiritual-performance hoops to earn God's approval--something they already have for free because of Jesus' death on the cross."

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, pp. 117-118

I watched "The Wizard of Oz" again after I read this book. After Toto pulled back the curtain, Dorothy confronted the man behind the curtain saying "You're a terrible man!"

He replied to Dorothy "I'm a pretty good man. I'm just a terrible Wizard."

Nell

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Nell

This brief reference is a favorite of mine and may get you started!

Nell, this weekend I am planning to watch the Wizard of Oz on Blu-ray. Have already viewed the hour long special feature "The Making Of OZ" which was quite impressive. Am hoping to get some additional prophetic insight from watching the actual film. In case you would like to HEAR/SEE the Authors converse about this particular portion of their book, here is a link: https://youtu.be/MelXy5Gj7Jc?t=97



P.S.

[Nell]

g

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Nell, this weekend I am planning to watch the Wizard of Oz on Blu-ray. Have already viewed the hour long special feature "The Making Of OZ" which was quite impressive. Am hoping to get some additional prophetic insight from watching the actual film. In case you would like to HEAR/SEE the Authors converse about this particular portion of their book, here is a link: https://youtu.be/MelXy5Gj7Jc?t=97

P.S.

Good stuff. Interesting point about leaders who cannot live up to, or follow, their own teachings or practices. Witness Lee did this. We had a discussion here recently about Lee’s admission that he only “lived Christ” for a very small amount of time during the days.

Enjoy your movie!

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Nell, this weekend I am planning to watch the Wizard of Oz on Blu-ray. Have already viewed the hour long special feature "The Making Of OZ" which was quite impressive.

P.S.

The Wizard of Oz was assuredly written as political satire, though meekly denied by the author. Although the identity of some of the characters is in dispute, most are agreed upon. It is commonly thought that the wealthy and powerful Senator Hanna from Cleveland was depicted as the Wizard. Since my grandfather was his personal assistant, I tell people that he worked for the Wizard of Oz. That usually elicits a few raised eyebrows.

Regardless, the incredible brilliance of the story was not in the movie, but in the politics of the day.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nell

Off to See the Wizard

"Dorothy, the Scarecrow, the Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion go to the Wizard because they believe he has the power to give them what they need. Dorothy needs to go home; the Scarecrow needs a brain; the Tin Man needs a heart; and the Lion needs courage. The Wizard sends them out on a quest to get the broomstick of the Wicked Witch of the West. If they bring back the broomstick, he will give them what they need.

They accomplish their mission by melting the witch and getting the broomstick, then returning to the Wizard's place to ask him to deliver on his promise. But, in fact, he is not expecting their return, and is quite put out at being held accountable to keep his promise.

Our heroes enter the huge chamber where the Wizard of Oz conducts his business. They are met face to face by the Wizard himself, a big scary head--not a real person, just a serious face, surrounded by billowing smoke and fire, making a lot of noise. With a thunderous roar, the Wizard demands to know how these four dare to challenge him.

...It is at this moment that Dorothy's dog runs over to a small room and pulls back a curtain, and what is revealed to us is a simple, flesh-and-blood man who has long been hiding behind a mask of power. He operates behind a curtain pulling levers, making smoke, fire and noise. The result looks impressive but is only a facade. Even when exposed, he roars, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

The "Wizard" is in fact a power abuser. He controls a whole city with a facade that postures power and punishes people for noticing. In a kingdom where the problem was that the Wizard couldn't deliver, Dorothy and her crew became the problem for noticing there was a problem.

It is sad to think how often religious power-brokers control their spiritual kingdoms with power facades. They rain Bible verses on people about authority, submission, judgment, prosperity or the end times. They penalize people for noticing that "the man behind the curtain" is just human, with no authenticity or authority at all.

As a maddening last lesson from the story, after all is said and done, the Wizard tells them, "You already have what you needed all along." They had risked life and limb for what they already had.

In too many Christian families and churches, Christians are told to jump through spiritual-performance hoops to earn God's approval--something they already have for free because of Jesus' death on the cross."

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, pp. 117-118

I watched "The Wizard of Oz" again after I read this book. After Toto pulled back the curtain, Dorothy confronted the man behind the curtain saying "You're a terrible man!"

He replied to Dorothy "I'm a pretty good man. I'm just a terrible Wizard."

Nell

Wicked Witch of the West and the flying monkeys-
Witness Lee while alive was a type of the Wicked Witch of the West.
Who were types of the flying monkeys?
I think in Taiwan it was brothers Lee used to do his bidding against the opposers who opposed church property being sold off for benefit of the Lee family.
Who were types of the flying monkeys in the United States? I have my thoughts. What are yours?

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Who were types of the flying monkeys in the United States? I have my thoughts. What are yours?

The all time "Bishop" of the USA based Flying Monkey Squadron for Witness Lee was no doubt the late Benson P.

Underneath Benson's seemingly fearless example of how to protect bruther Lee, there were quite a few names that could be listed. But I would like to nominate the late Sherman Robertson as Flying Monkey Squadron General under Benson because of his unabashed and inhumanly ruthless way of protecting WL.

Below are some letters that Sherman allegedly sent to Steve Isitt back in 2004. You can decide for yourself if SR was a Flying Monkey Squadron General or not...

“In Brother Lee's book ‘the experience of life’ he talks about being right with God and with the body. The main factor is the matter of the proper dealing. THE SCOPE OF THE OFFENCE DETERMINES THE SCOPE OF THE DEALING. If one commits a sin only in the mind, it can be cleared up very easily. All the person has to do is confess to the Lord and claim the Lord's blood and he is forgiven. If one sins in speaking a word that he shouldn't have to a member of the body, then he has to not only confess to the Lord but also ask forgiveness from the person he spoke the word to. If one sins against the church, then he has to confess to the Lord and ask forgiveness publicly from the church. If one sins against the recovery, he has to confess to the Lord and also ask forgiveness from the entire recovery. You have most certainly sinned against the entire recovery. The website of your "book" and also the website of your "fellowship" with those such as Don Hardy and others is now a VERY BIG PROBLEM FOR YOU. Your thought about the recovery being wrong is your major problem. Brother Lee was never wrong about anything that happened regarding the rebellion with John I. in the late 1980's. Brother Lee is a different person than Philip Lee. Brother Lee would never do things that others would do."

"What I said in my previous letter is what has to be done. As long as you think that you are right about what you did but that the problem is that the brothers from the local churches are not open, this is a proof that you have no light on this matter. And until you get light, you have no way with the Lord. Without light, you will never be able to come back to the Lord's recovery. Because you just don't know how to handle this situation. You are completely in the dark. Repentance is a mercy that is granted to us only by the Lord. But repentance only comes when one realizes that he is altogether WRONG. If you really feel that there are so many things wrong in the Lord's recovery today, it doesn't make any sense that you would want to come back to a place that is so wrong. The God ordained way is most certainly the way the Lord's recovery is rooted and grounded in and will be taking until the Lord returns. In this matter, there is no turning back. Remember, the Lord's recovery is not going to change, NOT FOR YOU, NOT FOR ANYONE." - Sherman Robertson

A second email –
"After I asked you to leave the meeting last Lord’s day, it was brought to my attention by the brother doing the conference that you had put your “book” onto the internet and sent copies to a number of the coworkers. I was not aware of this. Maybe I should have been but I wasn’t. Other brothers in the church in Bellevue had read it online also and informed me more or less of its contents... The first step for you to be restored to the fellowship of the churches, if in fact this is what you really want, would have to be a complete and thorough point by point apology and retraction of every item mentioned there. This would have to be posted on the Internet for all to see and of course you would need to send it to each one that you sent the book to. However, if you feel that the things that are in the book are accurate, then you don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery."

Not everyone belongs in the Lord’s recovery. I know a number of brothers and sisters that just don’t belong in the Lord’s recovery. It takes a special calling from the Lord for a person to be willing to pay the price to be in the Lord’s recovery. Many have left us over the years for various reasons. The Lord’s recovery is here to carry out God’s economy by means of the God-ordained way, but many genuine brothers and sisters in the Lord are not interested in God’s economy. They have a lot of interests in a lot of things, good things, spiritual things, scriptural things, biblical things, but not in God’s economy as practiced in the bible by the manner we have come to know as the God-ordained way. The God-ordained way is simple and “what we believe” to be God’s way of carrying out the church life in the bible. Anyone who does not agree with our assessment of this has the right to have his or her own opinion. That is the blessing of being a free American. We all have the right to feel anyway we want to feel about any matter. But some Christians would like to see the Lord’s recovery conform to their own private thought and concept. However, in the 32 years that I have been in the Lord’s recovery, it has never changed a bit to suit anyone’s private thought and concept. All who make it in the Lord’s recovery do so because they agree in their thought and concept with what the Lord’s recovery stands for. And that is God’s economy carried out through and by the God-ordained way. It has never changed to cater to anyone’s private thought or concept and IT NEVER WILL."

"The good thing about being here in America is that if anyone doesn’t agree with a Christian group such as the Lord’s recovery, they can just meet with someone they feel is more to what they feel is God’s direction for them. And if they can’t find anyone that matches what they feel that God wants, they can start our own group. It is an impossible task to try and change an entire group to conform to what you feel. IT ISN’T GOING TO HAPPEN. I will not be having anything more to do with you unless and until I see a complete and thorough point-by-point apology and retraction of every item in your “book” that has been posted on the Internet. And I want to see it on the Internet. Otherwise, I will be closed off to any other matter regarding you. Your statements of just “wanting to enjoy the Lord and go on” mean nothing to me. That would have worked if you were just a brother who loves the Lord without any history of damage. YOU HAVE A HISTORY." - Sherman Robertson

"All who make it in the Lord’s recovery do so because they agree in their thought and concept with what the Lord’s recovery stands for."
Maybe Sherman was right about that one thing...

P.S.

Wow, so crazy. Are these the words of a lowly servant of Jesus? Or an exclusive sectarian cult general? What he’s saying is not even close to being righteous

Notice how the tone and words he uses sounds like he’s brainwashed by Lee’s style of speaking. Like he spent his whole life just reading Witness Lee or something

I was in an all brothers meeting in 2007 in Bellevue where Sherman Robertson was railing against Steve and his son Jarod, who was coming to visit that locality from Pullman. It was the most bizarre meeting I’ve ever been in by far. He was all but cussing these men out and everyone there (besides myself) was harrumphing and amening and it was one of the most fleshly displays I’ve ever experienced in my life and I was basically dumbfounded how these so called Christians could act this way

You almost have to wonder if they actually read the Bible much, or just read life studies all day long. How could they ignore so many basic principles of the Bible behaving this way

Needless to say Bellevue was not a very living church around this time. In fact it was dead as a doorknob and I eventually just stopped meeting with them because they had no real life and enjoyment. No real testimony, just a local sect. I have a lot more stories about the elders in that locality and region but needless to say he was not a very normal or loving elder to my memory. Full of anger and trying to control everything, and the elders in the Puget Sound region are still to this day very manipulative and shady and I’ve got more than a few experiences and stories to back this up

[TLFisher]

The Sherman I knew, the was no in-between. Sherman was an absolute brother. He never doubted "the brothers" nor Witness Lee.

"Brother Lee was never wrong about anything that happened regarding the rebellion with John I. in the late 1980's. Brother Lee is a different person than Philip Lee. Brother Lee would never do things that others would do."

Brother Lee would never do things that others would do? No one should be placed on a pedestal.

Not just entire localities, but in elders too I believe bought into half-truths and accepted as being complete. Just look at Acts 5 as an analogy.

Acts 5:1-2
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and kept back some of the proceeds for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet.

Living Stream Ministry has continued to perpetrate a lie as pass it as factual.
Elders buy into the lie without considering "the rest of the story". Elders never consider they would be lied to by the co-workers or by the late Witness Lee. As a result they could fall into the category of "flying monkees" or "enablers". Elders need to do due diligence on their part. Mortal men are not above reproach. Instead they enable bad behavior and function as "flying monkees" in doing their part trying to silence the truth tellers.

There is some truth to what Sherman said, "Repentance is a mercy that is granted to us only by the Lord. But repentance only comes when one realizes that he is altogether WRONG." That would explain why there has never been a corporate repentance.

Originally Posted by TLFisher

The Sherman I knew, the was no in-between. Sherman was an absolute brother. He never doubted "the brothers" nor Witness Lee. There is some truth to what Sherman said, "Repentance is a mercy that is granted to us only by the Lord. But repentance only comes when one realizes that he is altogether WRONG." That would explain why there has never been a corporate repentance.

At this point it’s difficult for me to believe that these men are honest, with themselves and others. I was in the dark for a long time because I was literally in the dark regarding the truth not having heard it because the leaders lied for Lee to “cover him.” And it did take me a few attempts to fully accept the truth for what it is, and that we’ve all been massively lied to. I gotta give them credit for being so good at keeping us all believing in “the wizard”

However once you have the truth laid out before you then it’s on you, the burden of coming to reality is on you at that point. I can understand some level of trepidation for ones who committed decades of their lives, but at some point you have to say that they’re either in a kind of denial or they’re ok with the lie because they don’t want to leave the bubble they’re in. Possibly there’s a great amount of peer pressure- like “how dare you question this thing we’ve all been in.” I suppose that’s cult programming for you. You’re so used to the bubble you’re in, so used to the imaginary chains that you begin to love them and you’ll even attack others who try to free you

Reminds me of this movie called Pappilon with Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman. At the end of the film Steve McQueen’s character has been trying to break free of prison the entire time and finally finds a way out, but Dustin Hoffman’s character decides to stay because 1. He’s too afraid and 2. He has grown comfortable in captivity. At that point their captivity wasn’t horrible, it was just away from real life. He just didn’t want to go through the trouble of getting to the other side and wanted to keep the comfort of his not-so-bad captivity. They enjoy the comfort of the bubble but they aren’t actually free

I believe Steve’s books were meant to do just that- burst the bubble and release the mental hold Lee had over so many members. So after you read them if you’re still supporting the system to the point Sherman did then I feel it’s just dishonesty at that point. Like someone who just has invested so much in a lie they can’t come to grips with having been lied to. Or they just like their positions and they like the phoney honor they get. They like the lie better than the truth. They’re comfortable in their bubble. I believe many members are like this. They’ve become accustomed to their imaginary chains

I suppose at that point it’s a matter of character. In a sense I suppose it takes a bold person to break free from mental programming. But also we have to consider that this a system of abuse. A kind of Stockholm syndrome effect that is actually harming people and in worst cases fostering crimes and hiding the perpetrators

I guess ultimately I can excuse the member’s in this sense more than the leaders. Because the leaders have most of the responsibility. And the leaders are the ones who know what is actually going on whereas I believe the ill things that happen mostly do not reach the ears of the nominal members, because it’s how the local churches operate. They hide and bury the bad things that happen. But that puts more blame on the leaders. As a leader you have a responsibility to look out for the best interest of those you care for. And bottom line to excuse and cover the egregious things that happened is just so wrong. Which I view covering and lying for these things as bottom line dishonest, and at worst it’s a kind of aiding and abetting

I suppose at a certain point possibly they lost their sense of right and wrong. Which could be possible with enough brainwashing idk. Certainly Ingalls, and Myer, and other leaders saw the truth and saw what was the right thing to do and they did it. How many now are still living dishonestly? How many leaders are in the dark versus how many are just kind of dishonest? Or maybe afraid to let go of the thing they’ve been desperately clutching for so long. How many care more about their positions than the truth? You have to wonder did they even consider that covering certain things is unrighteous and doing so could hurt other members

Common sense would tell you that if “whistleblowers” are saying crimes and wrong things are happening you should look into it. But are they kept in the mental prison because of the fear of losing their reward? Idk but it’s all very messed up. They’re in a kind of prison and are being kept there with either fear or self denial because they don’t want their bubble burst, don’t want to lose their position, or they’re just too comfortable

Idk but I think they’re gonna have to give an account either way to God for allowing certain things to happen. Some more than others I’m sure

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I suppose at a certain point possibly they lost their sense of right and wrong. Which could be possible with enough brainwashing idk.

You DO realize that in order to become a trusted leader in the LC, any sense of right and wrong must be destroyed? Listen here to Ron Kangas reminding leaders of that requirement for LC eldership.

Since that is the case - and "The Ministry" is filled through & through with calls to exterminate any thoughts of judging according to right or wrong - why would we expect LC leaders to care about people? They did not lose their sense of right and wrong, they were told to destroy it - By both Nee and Lee...

P.S.

[countmeworthy]

WOW P.S.!!
Back in the day, early 70s, the mantra was “it’s not about right or wrong. It’s about LIFE”. Shame on the LC leadership!!!
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Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

You DO realize that in order to become a trusted leader in the LC, any sense of right and wrong must be destroyed? Listen here to Ron Kangas reminding leaders of that requirement for LC eldership.

Since that is the case - and "The Ministry" is filled through & through with calls to exterminate any thoughts of judging according to right or wrong - why would we expect LC leaders to care about people? They did not lose their sense of right and wrong, they were told to destroy it - By both Nee and Lee...

P.S.

I have not heard this yet I guess. Pretty insane

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

You DO realize that in order to become a trusted leader in the LC, any sense of right and wrong must be destroyed? Listen here to Ron Kangas reminding leaders of that requirement for LC eldership.

Since that is the case - and "The Ministry" is filled through & through with calls to exterminate any thoughts of judging according to right or wrong - why would we expect LC leaders to care about people? They did not lose their sense of right and wrong, they were told to destroy it - By both Nee and Lee...

P.S.

I'm sure most elders are fathers to their sons and daughters?
I'm sure these LC elders were not so irresponsible as fathers they did not lose sense of right and wrong in teaching their own children?
It's just in regard to Lee's ministry, we're not going to make an issue of matters, things, or persons. Essentially looking the other way in regard to right and wrong.

1 Timothy 3:1-5
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer1 must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

However once you have the truth laid out before you then it’s on you, the burden of coming to reality is on you at that point. I can understand some level of trepidation for ones who committed decades of their lives, but at some point you have to say that they’re either in a kind of denial or they’re ok with the lie because they don’t want to leave the bubble they’re in. Possibly there’s a great amount of peer pressure- like “how dare you question this thing we’ve all been in.” I suppose that’s cult programming for you. You’re so used to the bubble you’re in, so used to the imaginary chains that you begin to love them and you’ll even attack others who try to free you

Reminds me of this movie called Pappilon with Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman. At the end of the film Steve McQueen’s character has been trying to break free of prison the entire time and finally finds a way out, but Dustin Hoffman’s character decides to stay because 1. He’s too afraid and 2. He has grown comfortable in captivity. At that point their captivity wasn’t horrible, it was just away from real life. He just didn’t want to go through the trouble of getting to the other side and wanted to keep the comfort of his not-so-bad captivity. They enjoy the comfort of the bubble but they aren’t actually free

You mentioned Papillion. Never saw the movie. Your description of Dustin Hoffman's character, I have known more than just a few like this. I think in part they fully took in the ground of locality teaching. Well, it's not any different from the exclusive brethren.
It is sad to know of all the abuse and willingly stay there. I was one of the those at one time.