Prophecy - The End Times

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I started to write something else before I saw Nell's question.

Good question, and I will address this tonight, when I am home.

But in short, they are "sealed" before the Trib, but it does not say they are taken anywhere. The next chapter describes martyrs in heaven, those who are killed during the Trib. It does not mention the 144,000 being there. So I take it that their "seal" keeps them safe on the Earth, whereas the Beast will be marking his followers during that time.

Please include your theory of Witness Lee's theory. :-)

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Please include your theory of Witness Lee's theory. :-)

Nell

OK I will try my best. Of course we all understand that Lee drew a lot of his doctrines from the Plymouth brethren, and went from there. So he was biased to believe in a pre-trib rapture of "overcomers".

1) I place the vision in Rev 14 as occurring between the second coming and the 7 bowls of God's wrath. Yes, the 144000 are described as "firstfruits", but what Lee calls the "harvest" at the end of the chapter describes the wrathful judgement of those who remain on the earth after the second coming. I cannot read these verses as describing a general harvest of believers apart from the firstfruits. Lee sees the fact that the 144000 are described as being in heaven is evidence of a pre-trib rapture. I obviously differ with him on this point.

2) The Man-Child in chapter 12... I do NOT accept Lee's assertion that this entity symbolizes the "overcomers" or the 144,000. The dragon in this vision has seven crowns, which places the time of this vision during the Roman empire. The Man-Child, then is Jesus Himself:

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev*12:5*NAU)

The woman is Judea. who was chased out of her land and nurtured in the 'wilderness'. These events have already happened. Only Christ has ascended into heaven before the Tribulation.

More on this later... if there is interest.

I will also try to elaborate the 144,000 in a future post

[Timotheist]

Rev 7 calls out two groups of saved people:

1) The 144,000, who are sealed at the onset of the Tribulation
2) A very large number of folk who are killed during the Tribulation

The first group are called out as "Israelites", the second are from "every nation".

The first group are mentioned again in ch. 14, and are described in this way:

4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

The second group are described this way in ch. 7:

7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

So what is the difference? To summarize, the 144,000, the firstfruits, are "blameless" and represent the future Bride. The second group are described as servants, and represent the future "royal priesthood".

My take on the description of the New Earth is that the Bride and the royal priesthood are distinct entities. One is 'holy', the other is 'holier'. The Bride will be joined to the Lamb and sit on the throne, the servants will serve the throne and rule over the nations.

This was Paul's hope for the Thessalonians:

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who are blameless do not deserve death, and even their bodies are considered "holy".

The vast majority of us are not thoroughly sanctified, and will be given "holy bodies" at the resurrection, and our souls will be judged. The servants in Rev 7. were not holy enough to escape death of the body, but the Bride is truly holy, in both body and soul.

A question that I still have today is this: "Is the Bride made up of only these 144,000, or will others be added to her number?"

Lee's teaching concerning the Bride is that all of us will eventually be added to her number, and he blurs the distinction between the Bride and the king-priests. This all sounds good, but I don't think this will be the case.

==============================

Sorry, Nell, I see that we posted at the same time again!

(fixed...Nell (:-) )

[Nell]

RUSSIA, MAGOG?
Ezekiel 38:1-3 NKJV
38 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, [a]the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.

Who is Gog? Gog is believed to be a title for a person, like the “president” of the land of Magog.

https://truthnet.org/Ezekiel/9-Ezeki...iel-38-Gog.htm

https://www.endtime-insights.org/202...ssia-rosh.html

https://midseventiethweekrapture.blo...is-russia.html

Ezekiel 38:1-3 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

There is significant question as to the word “Rosh”. Can it legitimately be interpreted as “Russia”? I don’t know, but my question is “If not Russia, who?” So far, I haven’t found an answer. Those who believe Rosh is not Russian offer no answers either.

Ezekiel 5:5 Thus saith the Lord God; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

From Ezekiel 5:5 and Ezekiel 38-39 we see that this geographical position in a prophetic context places Jerusalem in the center. The prophet Daniel described the ruler who would lead an attack against Israel in the latter days as the “king of the north”. Dan. 11:5-35 Ezekiel’s prophecy says the invading armies will come to Israel “from the far north” Ezek. 38:6, 15.

Only one country occupies a geographical position in the “far north” in relation to Israel. Russia. The Russian landmass stretches from the Baltic to the Bering Sea.

This seems to be better evidence than the etymology of the word “Rosh”.

Who and where is Gog/Magog?
Who is Gog…the leader of the united countries that will invade Israel? What countries will invade Israel? Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Libia, Gomer, Togamarh. In the present day, Russia and Turkey will lead the coalition, from the North, they will be joined by Iran from the east, Sudan and Libia from the south, and possibly Germany from the west. These nations represent a revived European coalition.

Ezekiel 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

Why will Russia and its allies attack Israel?
1. To seize Israel’s land (Eze. 38:11-12)
2. Steal Israel’s wealth (Eze. 38:12-13)
3. To slaughter Israel’s people. (Eze. 38:16)
4. To set the stage for God’s punishment of Russia and her allies for their history of rebellion against Him.

When will the invasion occur?
Three things must happen first. Two have already taken place.
1. Israel must exist in its own land. This happened in 1948.
2. Israel must be prosperous in its land. This has happened. The prosperity of Israel today is beyond question.
3. Peace in Israel. After the seven-year peace treaty with antichrist. Peace has never achieved in Israel’s existence as a Nation. Not even close. So today, the Russian invasion is nowhere near imminent. But, it will come.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Defeat of Magog by God Himself
Ezekiel 38:15-16 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

When all hope for the survival of Israel is gone:
Eze. 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
 
Great shaking in the land of Israel
1. Earthquakes (Eze. 38:19-20) 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
2. Military confusion; v. 21 (2 Chron. 20:22-25) 21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
3. Disease Epidemic: Eze. 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
4. Calamities: Ezekiel 39:1-6 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel: 3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. 4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God. 6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

This massive destruction leaves a grisly scene in Israel. God sends in ravenous birds to clean up the mess.

Zechariah 12:9-11
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Zechariah 14:2
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

RUSSIA, MAGOG?
Ezekiel 38:1-3 NKJV
38 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, [a]the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal.

Who is Gog? Gog is believed to be a title for a person, like the “president” of the land of Magog.

https://truthnet.org/Ezekiel/9-Ezeki...iel-38-Gog.htm

https://www.endtime-insights.org/202...ssia-rosh.html

https://midseventiethweekrapture.blo...is-russia.html ...

Just to follow up with another perspective on Russia/Magog:

"There seems to be a lot of confusion in the Christian community about the role Russia and America play in the end times. Neither country is mentioned in the Bible, but many Christian Americans tend to examine prophecy from a Western-centric, non-Jewish worldview. In reality, prophecy’s timepiece is Israel and how it is impacted by the nations found in and emanating from the table of nations in Genesis 10. For example, Noah’s grandsons from Japheth—Gomer, Magog, Meshech, Tubal are specifically mentioned in the end time prophecy of Ezekiel 38 as part of a coalition led by Gog of Magog against Israel. These nations are located in what is now modern Turkey—not Russia as is widely taught.

The assertion of Russia in the Bible is a mistranslation of the word “Rosh.” The Ezekiel 38:2 King James translation says, “Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.” Whereas the New American Standard errs in its translation, “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.” The Complete Jewish Bible translation is: “Human being, turn your face toward Gog (of the land of Magog), chief prince of Meshekh and Tuval, and prophesy against him.” The mistranslation is such: “Rosh,” or “Ros” in Hebrew, translated correctly is always “Chief” or “Head,” never “Russia” (i.e., Rosh Hashana, meaning “Head” of the year)." Bill Wilson, The Daily Jot

Nell

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Nell

Just to follow up with another perspective on Russia/Magog:

"There seems to be a lot of confusion in the Christian community about the role Russia and America play in the end times. Neither country is mentioned in the Bible, but many Christian Americans tend to examine prophecy from a Western-centric, non-Jewish worldview. In reality, prophecy’s timepiece is Israel and how it is impacted by the nations found in and emanating from the table of nations in Genesis 10. For example, Noah’s grandsons from Japheth—Gomer, Magog, Meshech, Tubal are specifically mentioned in the end time prophecy of Ezekiel 38 as part of a coalition led by Gog of Magog against Israel. These nations are located in what is now modern Turkey—not Russia as is widely taught.

The assertion of Russia in the Bible is a mistranslation of the word “Rosh.” The Ezekiel 38:2 King James translation says, “Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.” Whereas the New American Standard errs in its translation, “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.” The Complete Jewish Bible translation is: “Human being, turn your face toward Gog (of the land of Magog), chief prince of Meshekh and Tuval, and prophesy against him.” The mistranslation is such: “Rosh,” or “Ros” in Hebrew, translated correctly is always “Chief” or “Head,” never “Russia” (i.e., Rosh Hashana, meaning “Head” of the year)." Bill Wilson, The Daily Jot

Nell

I appreciate your insight and in depth studies 👍. I am also studying and praying fervently for more understanding, revelation and knowledge. Blessings be upon the true believers and followers of Jesus, The Word of God, our Savior and King.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I appreciate your insight and in depth studies 👍. I am also studying and praying fervently for more understanding, revelation and knowledge. Blessings be upon the true believers and followers of Jesus, The Word of God, our Savior and King.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Thanks, Carole. Its important to "keep the things that are written", but hard to keep if you don't know what these "things" are! "The time is at hand" might indicate we should have started our "keeping" a long time ago.

Your thoughts are appreciated and welcome on this topic. Going back to the beginning verses of prophecy (I think, maybe), the serpent has been rebelling against eatin' dirt since the garden, and has been behind the evil that has existed in God's creation ever since. The serpent, the devil, has read the book of Revelation

Gen. 3:14 And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou [g]above all cattle, and [h]above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall [i]bruise thy head, and thou shalt [j]bruise his heel

Going back to Genesis 6:5 (ASV) And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Just to follow up with another perspective on Russia/Magog:

"There seems to be a lot of confusion in the Christian community about the role Russia and America play in the end times. Neither country is mentioned in the Bible, but many Christian Americans tend to examine prophecy from a Western-centric, non-Jewish worldview. In reality, prophecy’s timepiece is Israel and how it is impacted by the nations found in and emanating from the table of nations in Genesis 10. For example, Noah’s grandsons from Japheth—Gomer, Magog, Meshech, Tubal are specifically mentioned in the end time prophecy of Ezekiel 38 as part of a coalition led by Gog of Magog against Israel. These nations are located in what is now modern Turkey—not Russia as is widely taught.

The assertion of Russia in the Bible is a mistranslation of the word “Rosh.” The Ezekiel 38:2 King James translation says, “Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.” Whereas the New American Standard errs in its translation, “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him.”

Nell

I do agree with the first part of this about Israel-centric prophecies, but even though these grandsons from Japheth were once located in Turkey during Ezekiel's time, I don't think that requires these tribes to remain in Turkey for the next 3 Millennia.

Also, I do think it's more than a coincidence that Rosh, Meshech (Moscow, Russia) is exactly north of Jerusalem on the same longitude within a couple degrees.

[Nell]

Very interesting John Ankerberg interview with Dr. Jimmy DeYoung. There are several interviews.

https://jashow.org/prophecy/

Nell

You may recall, or not, that John Ankerberg co-authored "Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions" published by Harvest House, and included a chapter on Witness Lee and the Local Church. Of course, they filed a lawsuit against Harvest House, Ankerberg and Weldon. The LC lost its case on appeals all the way up to the Supreme Court, which refused to hear the appeal.

Here are the details from Harvest House if you're interested

[Nell]

AMERICA
Of course, there is no mention of the United States of America, by name, in the Bible. Yet surely God has blessed America as America has blessed the Nation of Israel. Two examples: beginning in 1948 as soon as the National Declaration of Independence was declared, a US President, Harry S. Truman, recognized Israel as the authority of the Jewish State. In 2019, another US President, moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem, recognizing the “true capitol” of Israel.

The Nation of Israel, May 14, 1948
The Nation of Israel Declaration of Independence
“…this right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations in their own Sovereign State.

Accordingly…we are here assembled…and by virtue of our natural and historic right, and on the strength of the resolution of the United Nations General Assembly, hereby declare the establishment a Jewish State in Ezret-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel.” David Ben-Gurion, Jewish leader.

U.S. Recognition of the State of Israel
At midnight on May 14, 1948, the Provisional Government of Israel proclaimed a new State of Israel. On that same date, the United States, in the person of President Truman, recognized the provisional Jewish government as the de facto authority of the Jewish state.

US opens embassy in Jerusalem,
recognizing city as ‘true capital’ of Israel
By Brooke Singman , Judson Berger , | Fox News
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-opens-embas`sy-in-jerusalem-recognizing-city-as-true-capital-of-israel
…
The Trump administration officially opened the new U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem on Monday, in a historic move cheered by Israelis but met with mass protests from Palestinians that turned deadly in the lead-up to the ceremony.
…
In moving the embassy from Tel Aviv to the holy city -- a relocation long debated in Washington -- Trump said America was simply recognizing reality.

"For many years, we have failed to acknowledge the obvious, plain reality that the [Israeli] capital is Jerusalem. At my direction, the United States finally and officially recognized Jerusalem as the true capital of Israel," Trump said.

“The United States will always be a great friend of Israel and a partner in the cause of peace,” Trump said in his video address. “We extend a hand in friendship to Israel, the Palestinians and to all of their neighbors. May there be peace.”

In his Life Study of Revelation,
Message 37, God’s Preservation of the Woman, Witness Lee says this:

“Some may wonder what the wilderness is. I cannot answer this question definitely, but I do have my own realization of what it might be. Although I do not wish to interpret this verse, I am willing to share with you my realization of what the wilderness is. Since its beginning, the United States has been a land to which people who desire a free conscience toward God might escape. We are all familiar with the story of the Mayflower. The pilgrims fled from persecution and escaped to this country. For more than three hundred years, America has been used by God as a refuge for His escapees. The symbol of this country is an eagle. When the persecution comes, many of God’s people may escape to the United States by airplane. Hallelujah, there will be a wilderness on earth for God’s escapees! Even today, the United States is still a refuge for escapees.”

In these messages 36-37, interspersed, is an almost shameless promotion of his own preconceived notion of the importance of his own “ministry” in the end times.

Would Lee have the same take on America today?

There are too many instances of God’s blessing on America, from its conception to today. There are also a terribly large number of American people who have fallen away from its rich Christian heritage. None of these are specifically related to this discussion of historic prophecies related to America. There are certainly prophecies that will be discussed later which are more related to Christians in general, but not American Christians specifically.

[Nell]

In summary, the Tribulation is the 7-year time period in the end times in which humanity’s decadence and depravity will reach its fullness, with God judging accordingly. Many Christian scholars have the understanding of Daniel’s 70 sevens, with 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.

Daniel 9:24-27 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel’s people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights (lowlights?) of the seven-year tribulation period: “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ’seven.' In the middle of the ’seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the “abomination that causes desolation” (Matthew 24:15) and is called “the beast” in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27 says that the beast will make a covenant for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice.

Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years.

Revelation 13 13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Also see Daniel 7:25, where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when the beast will be in power.

Daniel 7:25
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

For further references about the tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. These days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ’s millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

2) The Man-Child in chapter 12... I do NOT accept Lee's assertion that this entity symbolizes the "overcomers" or the 144,000. The dragon in this vision has seven crowns, which places the time of this vision during the Roman empire. The Man-Child, then is Jesus Himself:

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev*12:5*NAU)

The woman is Judea. who was chased out of her land and nurtured in the 'wilderness'. These events have already happened. Only Christ has ascended into heaven before the Tribulation.

More on this later... if there is interest.

There are a number of reasons Christ Himself does not fit as the "man-child" (more literally "male son"). Linked here is a paper, written by A.S. Copely perhaps around 1930. The Manchild by A.S. Copely

Below is a copy of what he said in this paper regarding Jesus Christ being the manchild:

THE MANCHILD IS NOT JESUS CHRIST
1. Jesus was not a sign or wonder child when He was born. He was actually a Jewish child, born
in a stable in Bethlehem.
2. Jesus was not caught up to heaven as soon as He was born; but He was carried into Egypt.
The sign child of our chapter was caught up to heaven as soon as it was born.
3. Jesus was born about sixty-nine years before this vision was given to John, which means that
the birth described in Revelation 12 can have no reference to His birth in any sense.
4. Jesus' mother also fled into Egypt with her Babe; but when the manchild was taken up to
heaven, the woman fled into the wilderness alone. John saw the facts of Revelation twelve from
the Day of the Lord; hence, he expressed them as past, though they are still future.
5. Both Jesus and His mother returned from Egypt after some months. But the manchild is not
seen returning from heaven, nor the woman from the wilderness.
6. Jesus went up to heaven, not as a child, but when He was thirty-three years old. The sign child
goes to heaven as soon as it is born, while it is yet a child.
7. Mary was not in heaven - neither before, nor after, her Babe was born. The sign woman of our
text chapter was first seen in heaven, then on earth also. There is not the slightest reference to
Mary in this chapter.
8. We do not read that Mary cried with travail pain. No doubt, the birth of Jesus was lively and
painless, as we read of the Hebrews in Exodus 1:19. This sign woman "cried, travailing in birth,
and pained to be delivered."
9. Mary was not a great wonder woman, but a simple Jewish maiden attracting no special
attention even after her Child was born.
10. Mary was not sun-clad, with the moon under her feet. She wore no crown of twelve stars. She
was simply a favored Jewish woman, whom God chose to be the mother of the Messiah. But the
wonder woman will be sun-clad, moon-honored, and star-crowned.
11. Immediately after the birth and ascension of the manchild, war is seen in heaven; but we read
of no war, neither in heaven nor on earth, at the birth of Jesus.
12 . Satan was expecting the birth of the manchild; for he "Stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." But the birth of Jesus was a
surprise to Satan. He did not stir up Herod against Him until after His birth - after the wise men
from the East has inquired of him where the Christ should be born. Next, let us note, that - THE MANCHILD IS NOT THE CHURCH