Prophecy - The End Times

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.


HERn didn’t write the above.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.


HERn didn’t write the above.

Sorry, not sure how that happened.

[Timotheist]

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co*15:51-53*NAU)

Here again, Paul fails to mention a rapture before the tribulation, that is, at the first trumpet.

This would have been a good place for him to expound on this burning question: Will those who participate in the pre-trib rapture take on their glorified bodies then, or will they have to wait for the rest of us?

[Nell]

Where do these verses fit?

Revelation 14:1-5
The Lamb and the 144,000
14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.


Revelation 7:1-4
144,000 Sealed
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From Witness Lee: "In principle, God's Harvest will (also) be gathered in 3 stages".

https://www.ministrysamples.org/exce...IRSTFRUIT.HTML

Nell

[Timotheist]

I started to write something else before I saw Nell's question.

Good question, and I will address this tonight, when I am home.

But in short, they are "sealed" before the Trib, but it does not say they are taken anywhere. The next chapter describes martyrs in heaven, those who are killed during the Trib. It does not mention the 144,000 being there. So I take it that their "seal" keeps them safe on the Earth, whereas the Beast will be marking his followers during that time.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I started to write something else before I saw Nell's question.

Good question, and I will address this tonight, when I am home.

But in short, they are "sealed" before the Trib, but it does not say they are taken anywhere. The next chapter describes martyrs in heaven, those who are killed during the Trib. It does not mention the 144,000 being there. So I take it that their "seal" keeps them safe on the Earth, whereas the Beast will be marking his followers during that time.

Please include your theory of Witness Lee's theory. :-)

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Please include your theory of Witness Lee's theory. :-)

Nell

OK I will try my best. Of course we all understand that Lee drew a lot of his doctrines from the Plymouth brethren, and went from there. So he was biased to believe in a pre-trib rapture of "overcomers".

1) I place the vision in Rev 14 as occurring between the second coming and the 7 bowls of God's wrath. Yes, the 144000 are described as "firstfruits", but what Lee calls the "harvest" at the end of the chapter describes the wrathful judgement of those who remain on the earth after the second coming. I cannot read these verses as describing a general harvest of believers apart from the firstfruits. Lee sees the fact that the 144000 are described as being in heaven is evidence of a pre-trib rapture. I obviously differ with him on this point.

2) The Man-Child in chapter 12... I do NOT accept Lee's assertion that this entity symbolizes the "overcomers" or the 144,000. The dragon in this vision has seven crowns, which places the time of this vision during the Roman empire. The Man-Child, then is Jesus Himself:

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev*12:5*NAU)

The woman is Judea. who was chased out of her land and nurtured in the 'wilderness'. These events have already happened. Only Christ has ascended into heaven before the Tribulation.

More on this later... if there is interest.

I will also try to elaborate the 144,000 in a future post

[Timotheist]

Rev 7 calls out two groups of saved people:

1) The 144,000, who are sealed at the onset of the Tribulation
2) A very large number of folk who are killed during the Tribulation

The first group are called out as "Israelites", the second are from "every nation".

The first group are mentioned again in ch. 14, and are described in this way:

4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

The second group are described this way in ch. 7:

7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

So what is the difference? To summarize, the 144,000, the firstfruits, are "blameless" and represent the future Bride. The second group are described as servants, and represent the future "royal priesthood".

My take on the description of the New Earth is that the Bride and the royal priesthood are distinct entities. One is 'holy', the other is 'holier'. The Bride will be joined to the Lamb and sit on the throne, the servants will serve the throne and rule over the nations.

This was Paul's hope for the Thessalonians:

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who are blameless do not deserve death, and even their bodies are considered "holy".

The vast majority of us are not thoroughly sanctified, and will be given "holy bodies" at the resurrection, and our souls will be judged. The servants in Rev 7. were not holy enough to escape death of the body, but the Bride is truly holy, in both body and soul.

A question that I still have today is this: "Is the Bride made up of only these 144,000, or will others be added to her number?"

Lee's teaching concerning the Bride is that all of us will eventually be added to her number, and he blurs the distinction between the Bride and the king-priests. This all sounds good, but I don't think this will be the case.

==============================

Sorry, Nell, I see that we posted at the same time again!

(fixed...Nell (:-) )

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

2) The Man-Child in chapter 12... I do NOT accept Lee's assertion that this entity symbolizes the "overcomers" or the 144,000. The dragon in this vision has seven crowns, which places the time of this vision during the Roman empire. The Man-Child, then is Jesus Himself:

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev*12:5*NAU)

The woman is Judea. who was chased out of her land and nurtured in the 'wilderness'. These events have already happened. Only Christ has ascended into heaven before the Tribulation.

More on this later... if there is interest.

There are a number of reasons Christ Himself does not fit as the "man-child" (more literally "male son"). Linked here is a paper, written by A.S. Copely perhaps around 1930. The Manchild by A.S. Copely

Below is a copy of what he said in this paper regarding Jesus Christ being the manchild:

THE MANCHILD IS NOT JESUS CHRIST
1. Jesus was not a sign or wonder child when He was born. He was actually a Jewish child, born
in a stable in Bethlehem.
2. Jesus was not caught up to heaven as soon as He was born; but He was carried into Egypt.
The sign child of our chapter was caught up to heaven as soon as it was born.
3. Jesus was born about sixty-nine years before this vision was given to John, which means that
the birth described in Revelation 12 can have no reference to His birth in any sense.
4. Jesus' mother also fled into Egypt with her Babe; but when the manchild was taken up to
heaven, the woman fled into the wilderness alone. John saw the facts of Revelation twelve from
the Day of the Lord; hence, he expressed them as past, though they are still future.
5. Both Jesus and His mother returned from Egypt after some months. But the manchild is not
seen returning from heaven, nor the woman from the wilderness.
6. Jesus went up to heaven, not as a child, but when He was thirty-three years old. The sign child
goes to heaven as soon as it is born, while it is yet a child.
7. Mary was not in heaven - neither before, nor after, her Babe was born. The sign woman of our
text chapter was first seen in heaven, then on earth also. There is not the slightest reference to
Mary in this chapter.
8. We do not read that Mary cried with travail pain. No doubt, the birth of Jesus was lively and
painless, as we read of the Hebrews in Exodus 1:19. This sign woman "cried, travailing in birth,
and pained to be delivered."
9. Mary was not a great wonder woman, but a simple Jewish maiden attracting no special
attention even after her Child was born.
10. Mary was not sun-clad, with the moon under her feet. She wore no crown of twelve stars. She
was simply a favored Jewish woman, whom God chose to be the mother of the Messiah. But the
wonder woman will be sun-clad, moon-honored, and star-crowned.
11. Immediately after the birth and ascension of the manchild, war is seen in heaven; but we read
of no war, neither in heaven nor on earth, at the birth of Jesus.
12 . Satan was expecting the birth of the manchild; for he "Stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." But the birth of Jesus was a
surprise to Satan. He did not stir up Herod against Him until after His birth - after the wise men
from the East has inquired of him where the Christ should be born. Next, let us note, that - THE MANCHILD IS NOT THE CHURCH

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co*15:51-53*NAU)

Here again, Paul fails to mention a rapture before the tribulation, that is, at the first trumpet.

This would have been a good place for him to expound on this burning question: Will those who participate in the pre-trib rapture take on their glorified bodies then, or will they have to wait for the rest of us?

Timotheist, et al,

What do you make of these verses in Revelation 16:15-17?

15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The Seventh Bowl
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

So Jesus is warning ... someone ... surely he is speaking to believers ... to stay awake before the seventh bowl.

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Timotheist, et al,

What do you make of these verses in Revelation 16:15-17?

15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The Seventh Bowl
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

So Jesus is warning ... someone ... surely he is speaking to believers ... to stay awake before the seventh bowl.

Nell

Another good question!

For this one I have to suggest a choice between two options:

1) These are those who converted AFTER the 7th trumpet and the resurrection. There is a path to salvation for them, but they must stay alert.

2) Incredibly, these are those who were raptured/resurrected at the 7th trumpet, and this is a warning to "keep your clothes on". What are these clothes? Elsewhere the robe seems to indicate the spiritual body, as opposed to the physical, which is "naked".

I see a parallel to the parable of the "naked guest" who somehow makes it to the wedding feast. The guest is thrown out into the outer darkness, apparently because he shed his garment.

How can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

The robe is also an indication of holiness, sanctification. Taking the robe off, then, would indicate a rejection of salvation, which is within the realm of possibility. These are those in the parable of the sower, who initially accept salvation with joy, but then walk away.

So the time of the bowls must lie between the second coming and the judgement of the believers. Can somebody "screw up" and rebel during this time? I suppose that the tendency of human nature to "lust for the flesh" knows no bounds.

The "thief" comes to those who are not alert and prepared.

So I tend towards the second option, but the other is still a possibility in my mind. I know I am treading in dangerous waters here, possibly angering those who believe in "once saved, always saved". But the outer darkness is not the second death. That judgement does not occur until the end of the 1000 years.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Another good question!

For this one I have to suggest a choice between two options:

1) These are those who converted AFTER the 7th trumpet and the resurrection. There is a path to salvation for them, but they must stay alert.

2) Incredibly, these are those who were raptured/resurrected at the 7th trumpet, and this is a warning to "keep your clothes on". What are these clothes? Elsewhere the robe seems to indicate the spiritual body, as opposed to the physical, which is "naked".

I see a parallel to the parable of the "naked guest" who somehow makes it to the wedding feast. The guest is thrown out into the outer darkness, apparently because he shed his garment.

How can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

The robe is also an indication of holiness, sanctification. Taking the robe off, then, would indicate a rejection of salvation, which is within the realm of possibility. These are those in the parable of the sower, who initially accept salvation with joy, but then walk away.

So the time of the bowls must lie between the second coming and the judgement of the believers. Can somebody "screw up" and rebel during this time? I suppose that the tendency of human nature to "lust for the flesh" knows no bounds.

The "thief" comes to those who are not alert and prepared.

So I tend towards the second option, but the other is still a possibility in my mind. I know I am treading in dangerous waters here, possibly angering those who believe in "once saved, always saved". But the outer darkness is not the second death. That judgement does not occur until the end of the 1000 years.

OK. Still thinking about your answer...not going into cardiac arrest yet.

Here's another one for you...a 3rd possibility for Rev. 16:15.

Going waaaayyy back to the children of Israel in captivity in Egypt. There were 10 horrific plagues, from which God's people were miraculously protected. They did not experience the wrath being poured out by God on their captors.

In the same manner, can God's people being spared from the ancient 10 plagues be a picture of God's protection of His people during the horrific events of the great tribulation and God's wrath?

That is, a kind of painting of the blood of the lamb on the doorposts which causes the death angel to pass over those sheltered inside? Is there a similar kind of protection for believers during the tribulation making the timing of the rapture of the believers even more of a mystery?

Nell

[Timotheist]

So are you suggesting a timeline that goes something like this?

Trumpets (tribulation), Resurrection, Bowls, Rapture

whereas I currently think of the timeline in this way:

Trumpets, Resurrection, Rapture, Bowls

I have not considered the former, but it does provide an alternative that might hold up.

People in my camp are called "Pre-Wrathers" as opposed to "Pre-Tribbers".

Not discounting your third option at all (if that is indeed what you meant to say)... and Rev 16:15 certainly brings up a decent question.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

OK. Still thinking about your answer...not going into cardiac arrest yet.

Here's another one for you...a 3rd possibility for Rev. 16:15.

Going waaaayyy back to the children of Israel in captivity in Egypt. There were 10 horrific plagues, from which God's people were miraculously protected. They did not experience the wrath being poured out by God on their captors.

In the same manner, can God's people being spared from the ancient 10 plagues be a picture of God's protection of His people during the horrific events of the great tribulation and God's wrath?

That is, a kind of painting of the blood of the lamb on the doorposts which causes the death angel to pass over those sheltered inside? Is there a similar kind of protection for believers during the tribulation making the timing of the rapture of the believers even more of a mystery?

Nell

Nell, Rev 14.9-10 (Warning) and 16.2 (1st Bowl) indicate plainly that those who receive the mark of the Beast and worship the Beast (whether Christians or not) will suffer the wrath of God. This implies that those who reject the mark and refuse to worship the Beast will be protected by God and spared from some of His judgment.

Personally, I believe pre-, mid-, and post-trib themes all have value, but who says that God has one common plan for all of His children? Perhaps all three are correct. Using the metaphor of a ripening harvest, perhaps each will be taken as they mature, some earlier and some later. according to their needs. I think most of the rapture time debates spring from the requirement that all God's children have a similar destiny.

Following this thought, I can't believe that all Christians will reject the mark of the Beast. I have never seen all Christians adhere to anything in total uniformity. Those who accept the mark may be part of the "falling away" apostasy which Paul predicted in 2 Ths 2.3. They may even side with the Beast for temporary gains. (Didn't Nee attempt something similar with the CCP?) I also think it's foolish to write them all off as false or tares, though some may be.