Prophecy - The End Times

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.

Sorry, Buddy, but I’m not Darby.

Peter says the “day of the Lord” is a thousand years.

3.10. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and elements will be dissolved, burning with heat, and the earth and the works in it will not be found.
11. All these things being dissolved in this way, what kind ought you to be? In holy conduct and godliness,
12. Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens will be dissolved, being set on fire, and the elements are melting, burning with heat.
13. But according to His promise, we are awaiting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Lots will happen on that one “day.”

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.


HERn didn’t write the above.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.


HERn didn’t write the above.

Sorry, not sure how that happened.

[Timotheist]

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co*15:51-53*NAU)

Here again, Paul fails to mention a rapture before the tribulation, that is, at the first trumpet.

This would have been a good place for him to expound on this burning question: Will those who participate in the pre-trib rapture take on their glorified bodies then, or will they have to wait for the rest of us?

[Nell]

Where do these verses fit?

Revelation 14:1-5
The Lamb and the 144,000
14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.


Revelation 7:1-4
144,000 Sealed
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From Witness Lee: "In principle, God's Harvest will (also) be gathered in 3 stages".

https://www.ministrysamples.org/exce...IRSTFRUIT.HTML

Nell

[Timotheist]

I started to write something else before I saw Nell's question.

Good question, and I will address this tonight, when I am home.

But in short, they are "sealed" before the Trib, but it does not say they are taken anywhere. The next chapter describes martyrs in heaven, those who are killed during the Trib. It does not mention the 144,000 being there. So I take it that their "seal" keeps them safe on the Earth, whereas the Beast will be marking his followers during that time.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I started to write something else before I saw Nell's question.

Good question, and I will address this tonight, when I am home.

But in short, they are "sealed" before the Trib, but it does not say they are taken anywhere. The next chapter describes martyrs in heaven, those who are killed during the Trib. It does not mention the 144,000 being there. So I take it that their "seal" keeps them safe on the Earth, whereas the Beast will be marking his followers during that time.

Please include your theory of Witness Lee's theory. :-)

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Please include your theory of Witness Lee's theory. :-)

Nell

OK I will try my best. Of course we all understand that Lee drew a lot of his doctrines from the Plymouth brethren, and went from there. So he was biased to believe in a pre-trib rapture of "overcomers".

1) I place the vision in Rev 14 as occurring between the second coming and the 7 bowls of God's wrath. Yes, the 144000 are described as "firstfruits", but what Lee calls the "harvest" at the end of the chapter describes the wrathful judgement of those who remain on the earth after the second coming. I cannot read these verses as describing a general harvest of believers apart from the firstfruits. Lee sees the fact that the 144000 are described as being in heaven is evidence of a pre-trib rapture. I obviously differ with him on this point.

2) The Man-Child in chapter 12... I do NOT accept Lee's assertion that this entity symbolizes the "overcomers" or the 144,000. The dragon in this vision has seven crowns, which places the time of this vision during the Roman empire. The Man-Child, then is Jesus Himself:

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev*12:5*NAU)

The woman is Judea. who was chased out of her land and nurtured in the 'wilderness'. These events have already happened. Only Christ has ascended into heaven before the Tribulation.

More on this later... if there is interest.

I will also try to elaborate the 144,000 in a future post

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co*15:51-53*NAU)

Here again, Paul fails to mention a rapture before the tribulation, that is, at the first trumpet.

This would have been a good place for him to expound on this burning question: Will those who participate in the pre-trib rapture take on their glorified bodies then, or will they have to wait for the rest of us?

Timotheist, et al,

What do you make of these verses in Revelation 16:15-17?

15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The Seventh Bowl
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

So Jesus is warning ... someone ... surely he is speaking to believers ... to stay awake before the seventh bowl.

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Timotheist, et al,

What do you make of these verses in Revelation 16:15-17?

15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The Seventh Bowl
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

So Jesus is warning ... someone ... surely he is speaking to believers ... to stay awake before the seventh bowl.

Nell

Another good question!

For this one I have to suggest a choice between two options:

1) These are those who converted AFTER the 7th trumpet and the resurrection. There is a path to salvation for them, but they must stay alert.

2) Incredibly, these are those who were raptured/resurrected at the 7th trumpet, and this is a warning to "keep your clothes on". What are these clothes? Elsewhere the robe seems to indicate the spiritual body, as opposed to the physical, which is "naked".

I see a parallel to the parable of the "naked guest" who somehow makes it to the wedding feast. The guest is thrown out into the outer darkness, apparently because he shed his garment.

How can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

The robe is also an indication of holiness, sanctification. Taking the robe off, then, would indicate a rejection of salvation, which is within the realm of possibility. These are those in the parable of the sower, who initially accept salvation with joy, but then walk away.

So the time of the bowls must lie between the second coming and the judgement of the believers. Can somebody "screw up" and rebel during this time? I suppose that the tendency of human nature to "lust for the flesh" knows no bounds.

The "thief" comes to those who are not alert and prepared.

So I tend towards the second option, but the other is still a possibility in my mind. I know I am treading in dangerous waters here, possibly angering those who believe in "once saved, always saved". But the outer darkness is not the second death. That judgement does not occur until the end of the 1000 years.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Another good question!

For this one I have to suggest a choice between two options:

1) These are those who converted AFTER the 7th trumpet and the resurrection. There is a path to salvation for them, but they must stay alert.

2) Incredibly, these are those who were raptured/resurrected at the 7th trumpet, and this is a warning to "keep your clothes on". What are these clothes? Elsewhere the robe seems to indicate the spiritual body, as opposed to the physical, which is "naked".

I see a parallel to the parable of the "naked guest" who somehow makes it to the wedding feast. The guest is thrown out into the outer darkness, apparently because he shed his garment.

How can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

The robe is also an indication of holiness, sanctification. Taking the robe off, then, would indicate a rejection of salvation, which is within the realm of possibility. These are those in the parable of the sower, who initially accept salvation with joy, but then walk away.

So the time of the bowls must lie between the second coming and the judgement of the believers. Can somebody "screw up" and rebel during this time? I suppose that the tendency of human nature to "lust for the flesh" knows no bounds.

The "thief" comes to those who are not alert and prepared.

So I tend towards the second option, but the other is still a possibility in my mind. I know I am treading in dangerous waters here, possibly angering those who believe in "once saved, always saved". But the outer darkness is not the second death. That judgement does not occur until the end of the 1000 years.

OK. Still thinking about your answer...not going into cardiac arrest yet.

Here's another one for you...a 3rd possibility for Rev. 16:15.

Going waaaayyy back to the children of Israel in captivity in Egypt. There were 10 horrific plagues, from which God's people were miraculously protected. They did not experience the wrath being poured out by God on their captors.

In the same manner, can God's people being spared from the ancient 10 plagues be a picture of God's protection of His people during the horrific events of the great tribulation and God's wrath?

That is, a kind of painting of the blood of the lamb on the doorposts which causes the death angel to pass over those sheltered inside? Is there a similar kind of protection for believers during the tribulation making the timing of the rapture of the believers even more of a mystery?

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry, Buddy, but I’m not Darby.

Peter says the “day of the Lord” is a thousand years.

OK then, you say you want a discussion but you keep moving the target. How about we stay in Thessalonians some more and you defend your position?

If this is a true discussion, then I get to ask questions, too.

To answer your point: the "day of the Lord" begins with His coming, and ends 1000 years later. The tribulation occurs before that day. So the day does not last 1003.5 years or 1007. That's how I see it.