Is the Processed, Four-in-One God a sound doctrine?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

They teach
"The Bible reveals that God is immutable in His essence and that God has been processed in His economy. As the processed God, the Triune God has passed through crucial and interdependent steps in the divine economy in order to dispense Himself into His chosen and redeemed people..."
Our Unchanging, Processed God

Where did Paul present us with God processed in His economy? If Paul didn't say this, then why should we? Zezima mentions eisegesis, or putting ideas on the text, that don't come from the text. "God was processed in His economy" is surely that. Nowhere did Paul write of an intensified Spirit, for example. Yet WL claimed it was a "crucial and interdependent step of His divine economy." The divine economy according to who? Not any that Paul referenced.

I now believe that we were in the grip of some kind of sorcery. How could so many otherwise intelligent people fall for such a cheap, blatant con? We were under a spell, stripped of our God-given sensibilities.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by aron

I now believe that we were in the grip of some kind of sorcery. How could so many otherwise intelligent people fall for such a cheap, blatant con? We were under a spell, stripped of our God-given sensibilities.

My families and friends are in the group. I realize I can't say anything against Lee's teaching before them, or I will be in trouble. I've tried to tell them there is something wrong with Lee's teaching, yet they would reply to me with more Lee's writings. I know it's not right to keep silent, but what should I do? I can't just leave there and let them stay in the group. I don't know if there is any kind of sorcery; I learn the longer a man stays and listens to Lee's teaching, the harder it is for him to awake.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

My families and friends are in the group. I realize I can't say anything against Lee's teaching before them, or I will be in trouble. I've tried to tell them there is something wrong with Lee's teaching, yet they would reply to me with more Lee's writings. I know it's not right to keep silent, but what should I do? I can't just leave there and let them stay in the group. I don't know if there is any kind of sorcery; I learn the longer a man stays and listens to Lee's teaching, the harder it is for him to awake.

Bible-believer,

What should you do? We can't tell you what to do. As a Bible-believer, you know to pray. This is the greatest failure of following Witness Lee. We don't learn to pray. We learn to "shut up and do as you are told."

From Aron:

I now believe that we were in the grip of some kind of sorcery. How could so many otherwise intelligent people fall for such a cheap, blatant con? We were under a spell, stripped of our God-given sensibilities.

What Aron said is true. How can it not be true?

The Bible says this:

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Pray that your heavenly Father will lead you and guide you. If your heavenly Father is leading you to leave...you can leave. Talk to Him and learn to hear and obey him.

Blessings to you, Bible-believer, on your journey to come. Consider talking to a Christian counselor. Learn to pray. Learn to hear and obey the voice of God.

I often pray this prayer, even after I've been "out" much longer than I was "in" the LC. "Lord, please don't let me be deceived."

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I believe many LC members have already received this "troubling." As Jesus Himself admonished us, "Watch and pray."

Yes, Jesus taught to watch unto prayer. Also he taught that every word should be fulfilled. So the word and our prayer life are our engagement with God - first we get the divine speaking, and our prayer is an assent back to God. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as in heaven."

The key for me is not to react to what people are doing, have done (that includes us). Your situation may look unpromising, even grim. But, "Your word O LORD is eternal, it stands firm in the heavens"~Psa 119:89

Focus on the Word. It is the conduit to Jesus. It's the conduit to the power that raised Jesus from the dead, that now will give life to our mortal bodies. It is the basis of our prayers to God. By faith we speak God's word back to heaven, and the heavens open, and the angels of God ascend and descend upon the Son of Man.

If your friends and relatives see you seeking Jesus in the Word, you will have peace. And the King will rule, forever and ever.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

My families and friends are in the group. I realize I can't say anything against Lee's teaching before them, or I will be in trouble. I've tried to tell them there is something wrong with Lee's teaching, yet they would reply to me with more Lee's writings. I know it's not right to keep silent, but what should I do? I can't just leave there and let them stay in the group. I don't know if there is any kind of sorcery; I learn the longer a man stays and listens to Lee's teaching, the harder it is for him to awake.

Use their own words against them, for example ...

Watchman Nee: "The Bible is our only standard. We are not afraid to preach the pure Word of the Bible, even if men oppose; but if it is not the Word of the Bible, we could never agree even if everyone approved of it."

When the Blendeds excommunicated the Midwest, Nigel Tomes wrote an article addressing this. This forum is filled with healthy Biblical exegesis exposing LC errant eisegesis.

Apostle Paul regularly admonished the church to prove the will of God (Romans 12.2-3) and to test all things (I Thess 5.21). We should never just accept one man's teachings as gospel truth. The Bereans were esteemed because they examined the scriptures daily concerning Paul's ministry. Even Apostle Paul's teachings were tested, examined, and proven.

Before my entire region was "quarantined," there was endless debate about whether the young people in the Recovery should study the teachings of Lee before reading the Bible (dangerous eisegesis method), or have a solid foundation in the scripture before reading Lee's messages (accepted exegesis method.)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

My families and friends are in the group. I realize I can't say anything against Lee's teaching before them, or I will be in trouble.

I’d rephrase that. You aren’t saying anything at all against Lee’s teaching, but rather you want to pursue truth in the Bible, as it unfolds before you. If you share this seeking, lovingly and respectfully, yet firmly and consistently, they’ll hear. I repeat: we’re not against Lee, the “church life” or “the recovery”. Rather, as Bible believers, we’re trying to understand the things that God’s word says. All of us are in the same boat. Some of us have been in it longer, but it’s still the same boat: “Seek, and ye shall find”. This is our hope, our way, our faith.

Bob: “Hey Uncle Joe, how’s it going?”

Joe: “Hey Bob, good, praise the Lord!”

Bob: “Amen, praise the Lord! Hey, I’ve got a question: in reading the recovery version, in one place in Psalms the footnote says that the writer was in his natural, fallen concepts, when he was cursing his enemy. It says, as people of God, we’re called to bless, not curse. Yet in another Psalm, the same antagonistic language is labeled as a type of Christ defeating Satan? How can one footnote interpret a verse one way, and elsewhere has an opposite interpretation? Why the lack of consistency?”

Joe: “Little nephew, maybe that’s just how it is! Praise the Lord!”
---[later]
---
Bob: “We see in the epistle of Paul that women aren’t allowed to teach, right?”

Joe: “Yep - that’s God’s command, through the apostle.”

Bob: “But look at this: I’m here on the LSM book sales, and in section “G” it has “God’s Plan of Redemption” by Mary McDonough. How come they sell a book by a woman who’s a contemporary of Nee? I don’t see anything else on the page but Nee, Lee, McDonough.”

Joe: “You see, she must have gotten a special dispensation from God. Once the revelation was complete, no more women prophets.”

Bob: “But Paul doesn’t teach that. Why are we?”

Joe: “Maybe that’s just the way it is.”

Bob: “They even started a website: https://marymcdonough.ccws.org and if you click on the links it takes you to “Christ and the Church” website which links back to LSM. https://ccws.org

Joe: “Well, little nephew, those brothers must know something that we don’t know. Praise the Lord”
---[later]
---
Bob: “Joe, you believe that God was processed in his divine economy, right?”

Joe: “Yessir, that’s the revelation of the Bible. ‘Incarnation, inclusion, intensification’” (starts humming the memory song)

Bob: “But I got to thinking. Where does Paul include ‘intensification’ as part of the ‘God’s economy’ that he wants Timothy to stay in Ephesus and teach? How do we know that Paul and Timothy included ‘intensification’ as part of the God’s economy they were presenting to the church?”

Joe: “Well we can clearly see in the Bible the sevenfold intensified Spirit to overcome the degradation of the Church. Revelation shows us the degraded churches and the sevenfold Spirit to address the needs of the Church. So surely this was God’s process in His divine economy.”

Bob: “But Paul didn’t write the book of Revelation on Patmos. John did. So how do we presume that Paul was telling Timothy to remain in Ephesus and teach something from a book that wasn’t yet written?”

Joe: “All I know is that the complete revelation of the Bible shows us the intensified Spirit, and Paul said that “The Last Adam became a Life-Giving Spirit.” So this naturally follows.”

Bob: “I understand the thinking, and don’t say that it’s wrong. But it’s worth pointing out that Paul never taught ‘intensification’ as a step of God’s New Testament economy. Nor did John the apostle. This is merely one person’s idea. We should be very clear: Paul never taught this.”

Joe: "Even if Paul didn't teach it, it's part of the complete revelation in the Bible. Other people wrote books, too."

Bob: "But if Paul didn't tell Timothy to teach 'intensification' as part of the divine economy, what basis do we have? What Bible writer says that "intensification is the third step of the divine economy?"

Joe: "I repeat, it's the complete revelation of the Bible"

Bob: "In other words, Witness Lee's interpretation, right?"

Joe: "That's right - WL was the apostle of the age, with the vision of the age."

Bob: "So Peter didn't teach intensification as part of God's economy, Paul didn't teach it, Jesus didn't teach it, John didn't teach it. But Witness Lee got the vision of the age."

Joe: "Yes, that's right. In the fulness of times, God raised up faithful brothers who put the vision together."

As long as you are respectful, and keep the topic on the Bible, most of them will engage you. But you have to seek the light. If you just want to contend, then we are all in the darkness, and your contention will not bring light. Only the Word conveys the Spirit which conveys Light.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by aron

I’d rephrase that. You aren’t saying anything at all against Lee’s teaching, but rather you want to pursue truth in the Bible, as it unfolds before you. If you share this seeking, lovingly and respectfully, yet firmly and consistently, they’ll hear. I repeat: we’re not against Lee, the “church life” or “the recovery”. Rather, as Bible believers, we’re trying to understand the things that God’s word says. All of us are in the same boat. Some of us have been in it longer, but it’s still the same boat: “Seek, and ye shall find”. This is our hope, our way, our faith.

I did, and I got into trouble. That's why I realized I'd better not bring it up again.
I tried the way you sampled in the post. I am being labeled as a trouble maker.
I study the Bible daily and seek the truth. Yet I feel so alone in the group, esp. when during the Bible study meeting. As one brother said one person against a system is kind of hopeless.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I did, and I got into trouble. That's why I realized I'd better not bring it up again. I tried the way you sampled in the post. I am being labeled as a trouble maker. I study the Bible daily and seek the truth. Yet I feel so alone in the group, esp. when during the Bible study meeting. As one brother said one person against a system is kind of hopeless.

I appreciate the severity of your situation, and don't presume to know what you can say or do. Yet as Trapped notes, we have the internet, and are neither alone nor hopeless. A lot of people agree with you. Some may be close by, but they can't speak up as you found out. I also agree with studying the Bible. I'd say, study Jesus and look at him carefully, what he did, what he said, how he viewed himself and those around him. You can spend a lifetime studying him. If you do, his Spirit will be with you.

Here's a recent example. He got touched by a sick woman. He said, "I felt power flow out of me". ~Luke 8:46 Can you imagine that? If a politician says to a poor person, jobless and hungry, "I feel your pain" and then gets back in his limo and returns to the State Capital, does he really feel the pain?

Yet when Jesus felt the woman's sickness, she got healed. For Jesus, to feel is not an emotion, it's a precursor of action: feed the hungry, clothe those who are shivering with cold, heal the sick. Listen to those who want to try and find their voice. Comfort the broken-hearted. And you'll feel that same power flow. If you feel others in their weakness and shame, where they really are, you can reach them. His Spirit will be with you.

Your situation, though difficult, is temporary. Don't be discouraged - you're not alone.

[aron]

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Then in James 2:8 he calls it the "royal law of scripture" If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

This "perfect law of liberty", this "royal law of scripture" is to love one another as our King commands, and not merely in lip service but in action. Our circumstance, and our perceived ability to love, are temporal. The command is eternal. If we break free from the prison of self, we realize our circumstances and even our abilities are nothing. The King has commanded us to love. We believe, and by faith we obey.

And obedience requires endurance. But the prize awaits. See e.g., James 1:12 Our prison is not circumstance. It is our inability to see past self, in the present circumstance. That's why James calls it "the perfect law of liberty". We see, we believe, we obey, we are set free.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I did, and I got into trouble. That's why I realized I'd better not bring it up again.
I tried the way you sampled in the post. I am being labeled as a trouble maker.
I study the Bible daily and seek the truth. Yet I feel so alone in the group, esp. when during the Bible study meeting. As one brother said one person against a system is kind of hopeless.

Bible-believer, actually you are sowing seeds, looking for "good soil."

Jesus said, "be wise as serpents, gentle as doves." Learn from Him.

All of the Lord's true followers were, from the little one to the great, "one person against a system."

It may seem "hopeless" to man, but being faithful to the Lord will always be rewarded by Him. Never allow yourself to be discouraged by others' reactions when you are speaking for Him.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Use their own words against them, for example ...

Watchman Nee: "The Bible is our only standard. We are not afraid to preach the pure Word of the Bible, even if men oppose; but if it is not the Word of the Bible, we could never agree even if everyone approved of it."

The problem is they are hypnotized to a certain degree, they would just quote the remarks instead. For example, James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
They would tell you that means the Christians of the twelve tribes.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

The problem is they are hypnotized to a certain degree, they would just quote the remarks instead. For example, James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
They would tell you that means the Christians of the twelve tribes.

I know ex- LC'ers today, banned forever by LSM into "quarantine land," who still believe that Life-Study's give them "life." I am convinced that most of what they think is "life" is really a feel good version of arrogant pride, thinking that they are more special than the rest of the body of Christ.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Use their own words against them, for example ...


Before my entire region was "quarantined," there was endless debate about whether the young people in the Recovery should study the teachings of Lee before reading the Bible (dangerous eisegesis method), or have a solid foundation in the scripture before reading Lee's messages (accepted exegesis method.)

One sister said we should study the Bible to have a solid foundation in the scriptures first so we could tell if anyone's teaching is biblical. (I agreed.)
Elders reproved her for bad influences on young people. She left.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

One sister said we should study the Bible to have a solid foundation in the scriptures first so we could tell if anyone's teaching is biblical. (I agreed.)
Elders reproved her for bad influences on young people. She left.

And these elders unknowingly helped the Lord in escorting this sister out the door.

I was active in the LC's for 30 years until I left in 2005 watching the Blended Wolves come to the Midwest. I have told many of those sad stories here on the forum. One family member helped me out the door when he literally said, "Returning to the pure word of God is a tactic of the enemy."

Hold on folks. When I came to the LC back in the 70's, that was like their sales pitch, "leave the old traditions, denominations, and teachings and come back to the pure word of God." Wow, have things changed.

The Recovery was fruitful in those early days because we returned to the scriptures. The Recovery has become barren and lifeless because they made it all about Witness Lee.

Bible-believer your story is very similar to that of the blind man in John 9. He testified that Jesus healed his sight, and look what happened to him. Like the Judaizers of old, the Recovery leaders hold their own people in morbid fear. Fear is an extremely powerful weapon that evil people in authority use to manipulate others.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

. I have told many of those sad stories here on the forum. One family member helped me out the door when he literally said, "Returning to the pure word of God is a tactic of the enemy."

Hold on folks. When I came to the LC back in the 70's, that was like their sales pitch, "leave the old traditions, denominations, and teachings and come back to the pure word of God." Wow, have things changed..

They have a blog post on Shepherding words that says just that

Here’s the link

This is the opening sentence…
“ From time to time a brother will trumpet the misguided notion that saints should read only the Bible, the 'pure Word'.”

[GraceAlone]

Bible-believer your story is very similar to that of the blind man in John 9. He testified that Jesus healed his sight, and look what happened to him. Like the Judaizers of old, the Recovery leaders hold their own people in morbid fear. Fear is an extremely powerful weapon that evil people in authority use to manipulate others.

I’ve struggled a lot with the idea of so much deception being mixed in with so much good, and also with the abuse of power among leaders who claim to represent God, as we all here have experienced and observed.

So I definitely took notes recently when our pastor said, “The abuse of power is part of our rebellion going back to the first lie accepted in the garden: ‘You can be like God.’” Boom!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

I’ve struggled a lot with the idea of so much deception being mixed in with so much good, and also with the abuse of power among leaders who claim to represent God, as we all here have experienced and observed.

Have you read brother John Ingalls' account titled Speaking the Truth in Love? John spoke up concerning all of these same issues, and he was accused of orchestrating a global conspiracy. Actually he was just trying to protect the church of God from unending abuses at LSM, specifically Witness Lee's profligate son Philip who regularly molested the volunteer staff. Btw, that should have been the LC #MeToo movement, yet WL used all of his power to deceive us, protecting his own degenerate kid and his own "pristine" reputation. In this regard WL was the same as old Eli the high priest. (Read the opening chapters of I Samuel)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

My families and friends are in the group. I realize I can't say anything against Lee's teaching before them, or I will be in trouble. I've tried to tell them there is something wrong with Lee's teaching, yet they would reply to me with more Lee's writings. I know it's not right to keep silent, but what should I do? I can't just leave there and let them stay in the group. I don't know if there is any kind of sorcery; I learn the longer a man stays and listens to Lee's teaching, the harder it is for him to awake.

As others have said, you must pray and study the Bible. Everyone must make their own choice whether they stay or not. Sadly your friends and family really do not know the decades of malfeasance which so characterizes those they follow at LSM.

The Bible does provide much instruction for your journey. Paul's letters to Timothy are especially helpful. Paul said, "in meekness instructing." (2T 2.25) Equip yourself with the truth (2T 3.17) Get your heart ready for suffering (2T 3.12). The mental strongholds in the Recovery are indeed formidable. You cannot just reason or convince them with scripture, the Spirit of God must also trouble their heart. I believe many LC members have already received this "troubling." As Jesus Himself admonished us, "Watch and pray."

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As others have said, you must pray and study the Bible. Everyone must make their own choice whether they stay or not. Sadly your friends and family really do not know the decades of malfeasance which so characterizes those they follow at LSM.

The Bible does provide much instruction for your journey. Paul's letters to Timothy are especially helpful. Paul said, "in meekness instructing." (2T 2.25) Equip yourself with the truth (2T 3.17) Get your heart ready for suffering (2T 3.12). The mental strongholds in the Recovery are indeed formidable. You cannot just reason or convince them with scripture, the Spirit of God must also trouble their heart. I believe many LC members have already received this "troubling." As Jesus Himself admonished us, "Watch and pray."

Thank you for this point. I will pray for this to happen to them.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

My families and friends are in the group. I realize I can't say anything against Lee's teaching before them, or I will be in trouble. I've tried to tell them there is something wrong with Lee's teaching, yet they would reply to me with more Lee's writings. I know it's not right to keep silent, but what should I do? I can't just leave there and let them stay in the group. I don't know if there is any kind of sorcery; I learn the longer a man stays and listens to Lee's teaching, the harder it is for him to awake.

Hi Bible-believer,

I know how you feel. I have the same quandary. You feel like you have to say something, but the whole system is self-defeating in the face of someone saying something! And none of us wants to lose our friends or family, so we dance around the big elephant of the truth. So do you maintain the relationship for the sake of having the grounds with them at some point later on? Or do you sacrifice the relationship to speak the truth and be able to say "I tried"?

I can't say much about how to handle family and friends because I think it's probably very specific one person to the next. But as a general "what do we do" about the local church as a whole.....I think the best thing is to get more and more word out on the internet. The local church's most used tool is control. And one of those types of control is information control.

But at a certain point, some people in the LC will reach a breaking point. And constrained by the inability to talk to anyone about their concerns, they will go to the internet in desperation.

And what a relief it is to go online and find out there are some people who see the same things you do, who see that those things are problematic like you do, and who put words to worries and thoughts you've been having!

The more talking, writing, websites, blogs, videos, comments, posts, forums, etc there are talking about the local churches the better. It takes away one of their major tools. It shines light where it needs to shine.

Trapped

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Hi Bible-believer,

I know how you feel. I have the same quandary. You feel like you have to say something, but the whole system is self-defeating in the face of someone saying something! And none of us wants to lose our friends or family, so we dance around the big elephant of the truth. So you do maintain the relationship for the sake of having the grounds with them at some point later on? Or do you sacrifice the relationship to speak the truth and be able to say "I tried"?

I can't say much about how to handle family and friends because I think it's probably very specific one person to the next. But as a general "what do we do" about the local church as a whole.....I think the best thing is to get more and more word out on the internet. The local church's most used tool is control. And one of those types of control is information control.

But at a certain point, some people in the LC will reach a breaking point. And constrained by the inability to talk to anyone about their concerns, they will go to the internet in desperation.

And what a relief it is to go online and find out there are some people who see the same things you do, who see that those things are problematic like you do, and who put words to worries and thoughts you've been having!

The more talking, writing, websites, blogs, videos, comments, posts, forums, etc there are talking about the local churches the better. It takes away one of their major tools. It shines light where it needs to shine.

Trapped

Hi, Trapped,
"I tried" and I did lose some relationships. But it's worthwhile as long as some of them got my points. The sad part is they would get back to the system by the overwhelming teachings of Lee.
-----------
I think the best thing is to get more and more word out on the internet. ---Indeed, that's what happened to me, and I am introducing this web to my friends.