Who Said It?

[Cal]

1. “This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth...”
   
   
2. "The gospel of the kingdom ceased to be proclaimed shortly after the death of the apostles. It was not preached again until ________."
   
   
3. "_________, the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth."
   
   
4. "There is one church! There is one God. There is one kingdom of God and this is it!"
   
   
5. "The only way to follow the Lord absolutely is to go the way of _______."
   
   
6. "This is the only way that was started by Christ."
   
   
7. "This is God's inner circle--His very elect...we are God's only true representative on this earth.”
   
   
8. "...we _________ are the remnant church!"
   
   
9. “The church is careful to not be allied with other churches..."
   
   
10. "All of the doctrines of God were restored by _________."
    
    
11. "The true church will be a restored Church."
    
    
12. "There is nobody else in this country that has the true gospel...There is nobody else in this entire world....There is no place to go.”
    
    
13. “Some people say there are other fellowships that can be alright. No, there can't be! Because there is only one body..."
    
    
14. "This is the one unique move of God on earth today."
    
    
15. “When you walk away from ________, there is no where to walk. Walking out of the light into the darkness."
    
    
16. "Just taking a look at the hundreds of Christian churches in existence today, it doesn't take much to notice all the disputes among beliefs, practices, doctrines, and authority that divide each denomination. It would be impossible to join all these churches, even the Protestant sects, into one church. Therefore, all of them do not make "one body without schisms". There can only be one, and I testify that the one is _________."
    

1. Ezra Taft Benson, Mormon leader
   
2. Jehovah's Witness Watchtower publication, 12/1/1928, pp. 363-6
   
3. Jehovah's Witness Watchtower publication, 4/1/1919, p. 6414
   
4. Dave Weger, International Church of Christ
   
5. Witness Lee, the Lord's Recovery
   
6. The Cooneyites
   
7. The Philadelphia Church of God
   
8. Seventh Day Adventist
   
9. Church of God in Christ, Mennonite
   
10. Philadelphia Church Of God
    
11. Mormons
    
12. Nick Young, International Church of Christ
    
13. Cooneyites
    
14. Witness Lee, the Lord's Recovery
    
15. Nick Young, International Church of Christ
    
16. Mormons
    

http://www.letusreason.org/cult12.htm

http://www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm

[Cal]

Find out who was right, here >>>>

http://www.myspace.com/video/thats-f...l-exam/6980891

<<<<

[Ohio]

The claims of all “one True” churches

1. All "One True" Churches Claim to be the Only One
2. All "One True" Churches Claim to be the Restoration of Christ's "Failed" Church
3. All "One True" Churches Claim to Have the Only Truth and Practice
4. All "One True" Churches Claim to be the True Church Because of Their Unity
5. All "One True" Churches Teach that either Salvation or Complete Christian Life is Impossible Outside Their Group
6. All “One True” Churches teach their members to evaluate truth by feelings, impressions, proving spirits—instead of the Word of God.
7. All "One True" Churches Claim Defectors Have a Bad Heart or Foreign Spirit and are arrogantly standing alone against “The Truth.”
8. All "One True" Churches Claim Anyone Leaving Their Group is Lost
9. All "One True" Churches Claim the Bible Must be Interpreted by Their Group
10. All "One True" Churches Impose Commandments of Men and Extreme Legalism
11. All "One True" Churches Encourage Submission, Not Questions
12. All "One True" Churches Lull Members to Trusting Babe-like Sleep

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The claims of all “one True” churches

Apparently it is really true. There is nothing new under the sun.

Same old errors. Same old deceptions. Same old BS.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Apparently it is really true. There is nothing new under the sun.

Same old errors. Same old deceptions. Same old BS.

Years ago, in order to inoculate the young people, we were told that cults had "church-like" tendencies, such as being devoted and consecrated, and I'm not saying that the Recovery is a cult, but their manipulative ways sure allow similarities to be drawn.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

[*]"This is the one unique move of God on earth today."

[*]Witness Lee, the Lord's Recovery

http://www.letusreason.org/cult12.htm

http://www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm

I would like to address #14. First as a caveat I have not seen the quote in its entirety so I am required to make some assumptions, if these are not correct then my comments are also not correct. Hence I would like the reference to where WL actually said this.

But assuming he said "this" in reference to the LRC, and that he said "the" then there are a few comments I would like to make.

1. In order to accurately say this one would need to be both omniscient and omnipresent. By definition the person saying this must therefore be God or a false prophet.

2. I find this comment incredibly arrogant and hence very dangerous for anyone to make.

3. I also find that this comment is a direct afront to the Lordship of Christ. Isn't it for Christ to say who is His move on Earth today?

4. I also find this comment very insulting to the Lord. The idea that out of 6 billion people he would be limited to a few thousand of the most abusive and litigious people seems very insulting to me.

[UntoHim]

Even if there is no direct quote of Lee saying "This is the one unique move of God on earth today", he said this kind of thing in so many words.

Here's some quotes from that one web reference at http://www.letusreason.org/cult12.htm

The local Church (Witness Lee)-
"When we were in the denominations, we were blind. I do not believe that any dear Christians who have really received sight from the Lord could still remain in the denominations. Everyone who sees must leave the fold and enter the pasture, under the sunshine, in the fresh air, in liberty. Where are you now? Are you in the fold, or are you now in the pasture? Allow me to say this: if anyone is still in the fold, he is blind. Of course, a blind person requires the fold to keep him. But when he receives his sight, he will swiftly leave the fold for the pasture, for the sunshine, for the fresh air.”
(Witness Lee, Christ Versus Religion LSM, 197,1 p.109-110)

"The only way to follow the Lord absolutely is to go the way of the local church."
(Witness Lee, The Practical Expression...p.94)

"If you leave the church (the Local Church), you miss the mark of the Lord's testimony. You must be in the testimony of Jesus. Only the golden lampstands, the local churches, are the testimony of Jesus....if you are not in the local churches you are not the testimony of Jesus.”
( Witness Lee, The Stream magazine Nov. 1976, p.7)

Though these are older quotes, Witness Lee never retracted or repented of saying these things, and they are very representative of what the man taught throughout his ministry here in the USA. He clearly implies that his little sect is "the pasture", and all others are blind sheep in the fold. No wonder the Local Church got tagged with the "cult" word early on. Then to add insult to injury he says the only way to follow the Lord absolutely is to become a member of the religion he invented....how convenient! And to top it all off he just can't resist threatening his followers with missing the mark of the Lord's testimony if they decide to go to some other church. Yes, Lee implied that The Local Church was the one unique move of God on earth today.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Hence I would like the reference to where WL actually said this.

I heard him say this, or something close to it, many times. The quote is from memory. But it is accurate.

Also, I'm wondering why you don't remember Lee saying this kind of this thing, or why you would be hesitant to acknowledge he said it.

You seem to know a lot about the Recovery, except when it comes to Witness Lee. Where were you?

He was always talking about "the Recovery" being God's unique move. I heard him say many times if you left the Recovery you could no longer go on with the Lord. He said that every brother that ever left the Recovery lost the flow. He even included T.A. Sparks in this number!

He drilled that into us and it took many years for me to get over it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I heard him say this, or something close to it, many times. The quote is from memory. But it is accurate.

Also, I'm wondering why you don't remember Lee saying this kind of this thing, or why you would be hesitant to acknowledge he said it.

You seem to know a lot about the Recovery, except when it comes to Witness Lee. Where were you?

He was always talking about "the Recovery" being God's unique move. I heard him say many times if you left the Recovery you could no longer go on with the Lord. He said that every brother that ever left the Recovery lost the flow. He even included T.A. Sparks in this number!

He drilled that into us and it took many years for me to get over it.

Yes, I am aware he said things like this, which is why I went ahead with my post on the assumption that this is exactly what he said. However, to say that "the local church is the Lord's unique move on Earth today" can be a valid scriptural teaching if you are not referring to your sect but merely discussing Matt 16, or 1 Cor 3, etc.

Likewise I could say that what the Lord is doing among us is His unique move on Earth as a personal testimony without any implication that He isn't doing anything else anywhere else. My point would be that this was the Lord's doing, not man's.

The quotes that UntoHim provided are a good example, the one that condemns denominations as being the "fold" is very arrogant, but it doesn't deny that denominations are part of the Lord's move on Earth, instead WL says that denominations are for the "blind" believers. So as ugly as it is it does not agree with the quote you gave.

Why wouldn't I want the reference? The quote has much more power and force if you provide the reference. Also, if that is in fact what WL said it condemns everyone that heard it and did nothing. So if it turns out WL said this during a message I heard I should repent.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

[COLOR="Navy"]
"The only way to follow the Lord absolutely is to go the way of the local church."
(Witness Lee, The Practical Expression...p.94)

The context is a comparison of the way of the denominations and the way of the Local church.

The entire paragraph says”Oh, brothers, the Lord be merciful to us! No one can force us to take this way; but once we see it, no one can force us to drop it. It is so precious that we would never drop it. If we drop it, then we simply have no way to go on as a Christian. The only way to follow the Lord absolutely is to go the way of the Local church."

A couple of paragraphs earlier he said “We all must be so absolute. If you feel the denominations are right, then continue in them. But if you feel they are wrong and you have seen something of the local church, then pay the full price! Never be neutral.”

WL, The practical expression of the church, chapter 10

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The quotes that UntoHim provided are a good example, the one that condemns denominations as being the "fold" is very arrogant, but it doesn't deny that denominations are part of the Lord's move on Earth, instead WL says that denominations are for the "blind" believers. So as ugly as it is it does not agree with the quote you gave.

Yes the quotes absolutely agree with the quote Igzy gave and that is why I quoted them! Witness Lee denied that the denominations are part of the Lord's move on earth all day every day. To say otherwise is laughable. In fact I'm going to ask you to show us where Lee claimed that any other contemporary Christian group, denomination or movement was anything other than outside the Lord's move on earth. You will not find such a quote from Lee because he considered his ministry the one ministry and he was the only one speaking for God on earth, at least since 1945.

Why wouldn't I want the reference? The quote has much more power and force if you provide the reference. Also, if that is in fact what WL said it condemns everyone that heard it and did nothing. So if it turns out WL said this during a message I heard I should repent.

Why should you repent? You never taught any such thing did you? Look, people get the wrong idea when some people say Witness Lee was a false teacher that makes his followers false believers. This is not true. And just because one finds themselves in the unfortunate position of being taught heretical things it does not make them a heretic. The falseness belongs to the teacher. The heresy belongs to the teacher.

In regards to quoting Lee, most of the time it becomes the dog chasing his tail. Lee defenders will simply say "that's not in context...let's see the context!". Then you will quote a whole paragraph or two....still the same game of denial and avoidance...they will say you have to read the whole message, or the whole book...and on and on you go. Most of the people in the forum have many years and decades of experience with the teachings and practice. Let's not kid each other.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Why should you repent? You never taught any such thing did you? Look, people get the wrong idea when some people say Witness Lee was a false teacher that makes his followers false believers. This is not true. And just because one finds themselves in the unfortunate position of being taught heretical things it does not make them a heretic. The falseness belongs to the teacher. The heresy belongs to the teacher.

If i heard anyone claim that "this is the one unique move of God on Earth" then I would consider it a sin to not object. First, it is one thing to share a testimony of how God has moved in your life, it is quite another to say that God is not moving anywhere else on Earth or in anyone else's life. The principle here is that if you see someone sin and do nothing then their sin will be on you, if you rebuke them then their sin will not be on you. I have already given 4 reasons why I consider this statement to be a sin. However, I would add that using the search function that LSM provides and trying various iterations, I was unable to find an exact match for this quote.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

In fact I'm going to ask you to show us where Lee claimed that any other contemporary Christian group, denomination or movement was anything other than outside the Lord's move on earth. You will not find such a quote from Lee because he considered his ministry the one ministry and he was the only one speaking for God on earth, at least since 1945.

I am not an expert on WL, in fact since 1981 I rarely heard him speak, nor did I read his written messages. Thanks for the offer to search through every word he ever spoke but I think I'll have to decline the offer.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

In regards to quoting Lee, most of the time it becomes the dog chasing his tail. Lee defenders will simply say "that's not in context...let's see the context!". Then you will quote a whole paragraph or two....still the same game of denial and avoidance...they will say you have to read the whole message, or the whole book...and on and on you go. Most of the people in the forum have many years and decades of experience with the teachings and practice. Let's not kid each other.

I'm not kidding anyone. This is a basic tenet of good scholarship. All of his published words, at least during a significant portion of his life, are available online in a searchable database. There is no reason to make up quotes. It doesn't add to anyone's credibility when you ascribe quotes without providing the reference. To accuse KR of bad scholarship in the Fermentation of the present rebellion, and then to condone equally bad scholarship would be hypocritical. One weight, one measure.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am not an expert on WL, in fact since 1981 I rarely heard him speak, nor did I read his written messages. Thanks for the offer to search through every word he ever spoke but I think I'll have to decline the offer.

If you are not an expert on Witness Lee I'm not sure why you get so involved in these conversations that revolve around the person and work of Lee and the religion based upon his person and work. Anybody who was in the Local Church for more than just a few months had to become an expert on Witness Lee. It was sink or swim. Sorry, but your contention that you did not read the written messages of Witness Lee for the better part of your stay in the Local Church is simply not believable. Why would you have stayed around? Every meeting centered around his teachings. The "churchlife" was based upon his teachings and the practices that he established/approved. You are not making any sense.

ZNP, you are being argumentative and contentious for the sake of being argumentative and contentious. This is part of what I mean by "kidding ourselves".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

If you are not an expert on Witness Lee I'm not sure why you get so involved in these conversations that revolve around the person and work of Lee and the religion based upon his person and work. Anybody who was in the Local Church for more than just a few months had to become an expert on Witness Lee. It was sink or swim. Sorry, but your contention that you did not read the written messages of Witness Lee for the better part of your stay in the Local Church is simply not believable. Why would you have stayed around? Every meeting centered around his teachings. The "churchlife" was based upon his teachings and the practices that he established/approved. You are not making any sense.

ZNP, you are being argumentative and contentious for the sake of being argumentative and contentious. This is part of what I mean by "kidding ourselves".

Well, I have shared my personal testimony repeatedly but I will walk you through it since you seem incapable of doing it on your own.

1. I worked for 18 months on the meeting hall in Irving, for much of that time it was 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. I was not supported financially other than hospitality. As a result after about 4 months I was so destitute I couldn't afford toothpaste, though the day my toothpaste did run out a family from Houston mailed me 5$. During those 18 months I stayed in 10 different hospitalities. Between the constant moving, extremely heavy work load, and being financially destitute I did not buy or read WL books.

2. I immediately moved from Irving to Odessa. At the time Odessa was a home meeting of about 25 saints in total including children. Their was no bookroom. By the time I left a few years later they were just beginning to get a book room started. If I bought any book at that time it would have been from a bookstore and therefore would have been WN, not WL.

3. I left Odessa shortly after publicly rebuking the elders in Texas. I moved to NY and almost immediately moved to NH taking a teaching job at a private boarding school. There was one other family from the LRC in Hanover, which was nearby, and we had weekly home meetings for that year. Once again I was not at a locality that had a book room so our meetings and fellowship was based on the Bible.

4. NYC wanted to send me to the FTTT so after teaching one year I went straight to NY and then to Taiwan. Because of the weight restrictions in International flight I didn't take any books other than my Bible, Hymnal and Experience of Life (the required book).

5. During the 3rd semester of the FTTT, and my first semester in the FTTT we went through the Experience of Life, sat through daily meetings not being run by WL even though he was at Hall 1, and then spent the afternoons and evenings in the gospel work. The only other WL publication we used was the booklet for preaching the gospel, a short booklet that leads to baptism.

6. From then until 1995 I stayed in Taiwan, met at Hall 19 and Hall 3. I visited Hall 1 book store a few times, thumbed through some of the new books but was never interested enough to buy them. Nor could I afford to buy the Life study sets. I did train trainees to preach the gospel in English in preparation for them to go to Russia. I did not use WL's materials for my training.

7. In 95 I returned to NY and made a very difficult transition to a new profession which required 12 hour days and 6 day weeks. By this time the saints I was with were not pleased with LSM to put it mildly. They did not use LSM publications for morning watch, we used the Bible. We didn't use their messages for the meetings either. I did not see any need to buy their books and didn't. I stayed until 98.

I find it insulting of you to accuse me of being a liar. Also, I think it is clear that for 20 years I was "absolute" for the church life and spent many years "full time". So I also find it offensive that you would question why I would be interested in this forum saying that I am merely an argumentative and contentious person.

While in Taipei I documented over 1,000 gospel events. Times in which I preached the gospel. I would think that I had similar numbers when I was in Houston at Rice, but we didn't document. Questions like "what about the Catholics" or "other denominations" came up frequently. I fellowshipped with brothers and sisters who didn't meet with us but were also involved in the gospel, particularly those in Intervarsity while in Houston, and various Bible studies while in Odessa. My response to those that said "what about other Christians that love the Lord" was that "I also love the Lord". I trained others to preach the gospel and never once taught that "we were the only place God was moving" such a concept was outrageously offensive to me then and now. To me it would be a very serious thing for any person to say it.

[OBW]

ZNP,

Based on your most recent post, it would appear to me that you spent several years dancing around the edges of something you never really understood. If you never actually read the stuff, but only existed on what you heard in various localities, it was never "perfect Lee" no matter how much we say that they are all parroting Lee.

In fact, I have found that it is seldom in hearing and speaking that I notice errors, or the questions arise. I was gone many years from the LRC before I questioned its teachings. Only when I began to read it for myself from that online treasury was the shoddy theology, illogic, and logical errors made clear. And from what I can see in the works I have read or perused, the logical errors were seldom just mistakes, but willful steps taken to force the discussion where it was wanted to go. Even Nee did it. Not at the level that Lee did.

I would suggest that you were captured by the way the LRC "does church" more than anything else. It was (even still can be) appealing. But the way you do church does not command blessing upon your errors, no matter how many times you sing Psalm 133. ("Your" is in reference to Lee and the LRC, not you.)

I'm beginning to see a disconnect between the LRC you experienced while working on the Irving hall, living in Odessa, New Hampshire, and the FTTT in Taiwan, and the LRC that Lee taught year after year. And maybe you are right that you didn't hear that much about Lee. They weren't reading sermons out on the property in Irving. And no matter what you think of George W, he was among some who were not the most lock step, turn off your mind supporters (although I think he may have simply allowed himself to slide into the background now).

I think George was a little like you in that respect. There was something about the LRC that was appealing to him and once he reached a certain age, it was hard to consider that he could be that wrong, so he just resigned himself to it. My last contact with George was quite disappointing. He seemed an empty shell compared to the man I knew in Dallas. Almost seemed to not recognize me other than someone to repeat trite catch phrases to.

And if you returned to NY where they didn't even use LSM materials for morning watch, I would say that the "church life" that you were so strong for was not the "church life" that Lee intended. Or that so many others were involved in. It was something else. Just happened to stay loosely connected with the LRC.

In an odd way, your stories about time in the LRC are like viewing the whole of the United States from the perspective of 5 different remote rural communities. Or the working conditions at a NY sweat shop as seen from the owner's office on Madison Avenue. Your experiences are real. And they are personal. But they are not the LRC. Not the one that I joined in 73 and left in 87. Or the one that send my sister to Taiwan, and holds her and my brother and father to this day. And I am sure that Dallas is not entirely representative of the most gung-ho localities. But it is far from anything that you suggest as ever being the norm in the LRC.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

1. I worked for 18 months on the meeting hall in Irving, for much of that time it was 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. I was not supported financially other than hospitality. As a result after about 4 months I was so destitute I couldn't afford toothpaste, though the day my toothpaste did run out a family from Houston mailed me 5$. During those 18 months I stayed in 10 different hospitalities. Between the constant moving, extremely heavy work load, and being financially destitute I did not buy or read WL books.

ZNP, I've been meaning to ask you, would you be able to share with us how you were chosen to work on the stone crew?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Based on your most recent post, it would appear to me that you spent several years dancing around the edges of something you never really understood.

I enjoyed this post.

Couple of comments in response.

1. I like GW. And, yes we are probably quite similar in many respects. However, I did experience a year and a half where he was trying to break me in the same way you might break a horse.

2. I find it very difficult to consider my experience "dancing around the edges":

Houston with RG and BP -- not the edges
Irving at time of construction -- not edges
Odessa -- at time the gospel move was all the rage, hence the reason to send GW and 2 other brothers out there.
NH -- that was the edges, but it was for one year.
Taipei during the FTTT -- not the edges, though perhaps from a US perspective.
NY -- not the edge, a very significant church, though loosely affiliated with lSM.

Also, although I didn't major in WL I actively spoke and taught the bible virtually every week and trained trainees in the gospel work.

Personally, I feel that saints who attended LRC meetings as the sum total of their Christian experience, in my mind they were dancing around the edges of the Christian experience. Yes I heard many quote WL in messages and testimonies, but I always felt this was due to a lack of experience of Christ of their own.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

ZNP, I've been meaning to ask you, would you be able to share with us how you were chosen to work on the stone crew?

That is hilarious. Simple and obvious. I was in charge of the crew that built the planters. We finished our work shortly after the stone crew began under the leadership of Pester. Once we were done the "planter crew" was rolled into the stone crew. We were not chosen based on any skills.

[Cal]

Z, I think you are going to have to take the word of those of us who heard Lee teaching live or via video tape many times.

Lee said many things about the Recovery being God's unique move and he specifically left out all of the denominations, free groups, etc.

I didn't "make up a quote." I recollected what he said and the way he said it from many experiences of hearing him say that kind of thing.

In case you've forgotten, the gospels were written from memory, too. And the same incident is often recorded multiple times quoting Jesus slightly differently.

Please get over it and stop side-tracking threads. Thanks.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I enjoyed this post.

Couple of comments in response.

1. I like GW. And, yes we are probably quite similar in many respects. However, I did experience a year and a half where he was trying to break me in the same way you might break a horse.

2. I find it very difficult to consider my experience "dancing around the edges":

Houston with RG and BP -- not the edges
Irving at time of construction -- not edges
Odessa -- at time the gospel move was all the rage, hence the reason to send GW and 2 other brothers out there.
NH -- that was the edges, but it was for one year.
Taipei during the FTTT -- not the edges, though perhaps from a US perspective.
NY -- not the edge, a very significant church, though loosely affiliated with lSM.

Also, although I didn't major in WL I actively spoke and taught the bible virtually every week and trained trainees in the gospel work.

Personally, I feel that saints who attended LRC meetings as the sum total of their Christian experience, in my mind they were dancing around the edges of the Christian experience. Yes I heard many quote WL in messages and testimonies, but I always felt this was due to a lack of experience of Christ of their own.

I'm glad you took my post the way you did. I definitely was not complaining about anything, just wondering if there was some angle that explained your experience and observations that maybe none of us had previously considered.

As for the "dancing around the edges" part, it was probably not the best cliché for what I was thinking. But even down there in Houston under RG, and then being in the FTTT, your own description of your experiences seems to reflect an attitude, perspective, etc., that was not commonplace for even others where you might have been at the times (especially in Houston). I'm sure that you were really into it enough. And it looked enough like the mainstream LRC thing to fool others (not that you had any idea of fooling anyone) and to even make you consider yourself down in the main thing.

But there is just some kind of disconnect that I think maybe even you weren't able to see at the time.

In any case, just some observations of history from a different perspective.

[Cal]

Actually, Z, you are blessed to have missed out on Lee drilling into us that we were "God's one unique move." Trust me, you don't want those tapes running in your head.

I wish I had been out in the hinterland with you. But, anyway, God knows what he's doing.