Bible as the Absolute Authority

One of the most important matter that the reformers brought to the protestant saints is that the believers submit to the Bible as the absolute authority. Regardless who you are, whether it's elder or newly saved one, you live your life according to the teaching of the Bible. But in the LC, many times, the saints live or are bound by the leading brothers. It is unnecessary for an elder to tell you who you should be married to etc. Many were brainwashed to think brother Lee is like a prophet, the life studies like the only explanation of the bible. This is why the LC can't work together with the rest of the body. Oh lord have mercy to lead this group back to the right path.

[manna-man]

Good word Unregistered ***35

However...

There is a danger and disconnect which can result in putting so much faith in scripture.

(Bible worship)<There's a danger in over using these two words also...

A balanced relationship with our God through both the guidance of scripture and The Holy Spirit.
The Supreme authority is and always have been Jesus. Not any local church, man or body...

May The LORD lead us ALL away from the religious spirit (Not just the LC) and back into His triumphant plan for the whosoever!

2 Timothy 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Hebrews 4:14
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Grace and Peace

[JJ]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Good word Unregistered ***35

However...

There is a danger and disconnect which can result in putting so much faith in scripture.

(Bible worship)<There's a danger in over using these two words also...

A balanced relationship with our God through both the guidance of scripture and The Holy Spirit.
The Supreme authority is and always have been Jesus. Not any local church, man or body...

May The LORD lead us ALL away from the religious spirit (Not just the LC) and back into His triumphant plan for the whosoever!

2 Timothy 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Hebrews 4:14
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Grace and Peace

Right, God has given us both His written word and His Holy Spirit to guide us https://biblehub.com/john/14-26.htm.

Too much emphasis on either one leads us away from the one who is the way, the truth, and the light. Jesus Christ.

I had many “debates” on this with a TLR supporter who hasn’t been around for a while. He was completely in the camp of the Holy Spirit plus TLR materials, and I tried to point him back to the Bible and the Holy Spirit together.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by JJ

Right, God has given us both His written word and His Holy Spirit to guide us https://biblehub.com/john/14-26.htm.

Too much emphasis on either one leads us away from the one who is the way, the truth, and the light. Jesus Christ.

I had many “debates” on this with a TLR supporter who hasn’t been around for a while. He was completely in the camp of the Holy Spirit plus TLR materials, and I tried to point him back to the Bible and the Holy Spirit together.

However, the leading of the Holy Spirit never conflicts with the written word.

Nell

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Nell

However, the leading of the Holy Spirit never conflicts with the written word.

Nell

Right. That’s in the second part of John 14:26. The Holy Spirit reminds us of the things Jesus has said. Not a different gospel.

[jesusislord]

Originally Posted by JJ

Right, God has given us both His written word and His Holy Spirit to guide us https://biblehub.com/john/14-26.htm.

Too much emphasis on either one leads us away from the one who is the way, the truth, and the light. Jesus Christ.

I had many “debates” on this with a TLR supporter who hasn’t been around for a while. He was completely in the camp of the Holy Spirit plus TLR materials, and I tried to point him back to the Bible and the Holy Spirit together.

Too much faith in the scripture? Are you saying God contradict himself with his own words? What do you means by being balance?

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by jesusislord

Too much faith in the scripture? Are you saying God contradict himself with his own words? What do you means by being balance?

Scripture says it all...

John 5:39 ►
SUM PIC XRF DEV STU
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,

New Living Translation
“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!

English Standard Version
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,


You can know scripture but miss Him. Seek Him while He may be found....understand?

Reality vs. Shadows

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by jesusislord

Too much faith in the scripture? Are you saying God contradict himself with his own words? What do you means by being balance?

As others have pointed out, God has given us both His word and the Anointing to sustain us, and I would add having ongoing fellowship with others.

I see a good part of Christendom as having gone to the extreme of almost Bible worship. I can't tell you how many times I've heard things said like, "The Bible has all the answers. If you just follow its teachings you will lead a good Christian life." (Sometimes something is added like, "And be sure to go to the Lord with it" almost as an afterthought.) It is a an old covenant, legal and outward understanding of trying to live the Christian life . . .

This is really adding something to Christ alone. That is, it's saying believers should try to do something (spelled "flesh") to follow the outward letter. It looks spiritual because it's "following God's word." Galatians was written to address this. The new covenant is that God has written on our hearts and minds through the indwelling Spirit of Christ. It is God working IN us to transform us and give us the supply to do His will, not by just outwardly following the written word.

So we need BOTH the Word and the Spirit consistently - and also fellowship. (And, as others pointed out, the LC often tended to go to the other extreme.)

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

As others have pointed out, God has given us both His word and the Anointing to sustain us, and I would add having ongoing fellowship with others.

I see a good part of Christendom as having gone to the extreme of almost Bible worship. I can't tell you how many times I've heard things said like, "The Bible has all the answers. If you just follow its teachings you will lead a good Christian life." (Sometimes something is added like, "And be sure to go to the Lord with it" almost as an afterthought.) It is a an old covenant, legal and outward understanding of trying to live the Christian life . . .

This is really adding something to Christ alone. That is, it's saying believers should try to do something (spelled "flesh") to follow the outward letter. It looks spiritual because it's "following God's word." Galatians was written to address this. The new covenant is that God has written on our hearts and minds through the indwelling Spirit of Christ. It is God working IN us to transform us and give us the supply to do His will, not by just outwardly following the written word.

So we need BOTH the Word and the Spirit consistently - and also fellowship. (And, as others pointed out, the LC often tended to go to the other extreme.)

Brother StG, in love, and with appreciation for you as my brother in Christ, what the heck? This is contradicting within itself, and, has the LC taint of 'christendom' vs us who know something special....the Spirit. It is a huge assumption that those in 'christendom', when, trusting Jesus and His word, point to the scriptures as a solution for....you name it....it is a huge assumption that that is happening outside the Lords' spirit and leading, influence and teaching......how do you know? Are you the Holy Spirit? Have you searched each individual heart? Why, in 'christendom' is that precious trust then demoted to the ranks of 'flesh' 'old covenant' erroneous 'bible worship' and only 'looks spiritual'?

The Holy Spirit is living in the body, aside from the tares....each individual member planted by God Himself. Don't you think He is able to operate in every member who trusts the word to open it and look for the truth there, look for the Lord there? I do. The word is amazing. It carries out every claim God breathed there. It actually does operate! It actually does instruct! It is actually living!! It is a mystery I am only witness to, not qualified to expound upon, but brother, that view that we brought with us straight from the LC is a religious spirit. I rebuke it, in Jesus name.

Didn't the Lord ask us to hide his word in our hearts? And isn't it our lamp to our feet? If He gave it to us with so many functions, why look down on those who value it so? Because they are not.....what? Trained up in the Lee way? Educated enough on the indwelling Holy Spirit? Is this not here in the word? Do they not have access to this truth and the reality of it....in the very book they promote? You are so right about our need for the word and the Spirit, and fellowship in the body.....but your thinking of the body lacking one or more of these elements....well that would take your personal intimate fellowship with each member of Christs' body to discern. Do you know each member?

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Good word Unregistered ***35

However...

There is a danger and disconnect which can result in putting so much faith in scripture.

(Bible worship)<There's a danger in over using these two words also...

A balanced relationship with our God through both the guidance of scripture and The Holy Spirit.
The Supreme authority is and always have been Jesus. Not any local church, man or body...

May The LORD lead us ALL away from the religious spirit (Not just the LC) and back into His triumphant plan for the whosoever!

2 Timothy 3:16-17 New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Hebrews 4:14
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Grace and Peace

This is great for the individual-I can read the scriptures and feel the Spirit is guiding me, but when there are two, there are differences of opinion, three and some quarrel, four and sects, five and divisions, and geometrically resulting in today’s Christianity. The real question is are there some who are God given spiritual know-it-alls who should reign over the consciences of the little believers. Is it God appointed to have supreme spiritual leaders. Much, if not all of Christiandum has gone this way-the individual has to give up their “touch with the Lord” for the greater good of the whole.

[Boxjobox]

When I first encountered the local church in ‘74, I thought “wow, Christians meeting together apart from the nonsense, and people were free to speak what they felt were their spiritual experiences”. The elders were there so that things didn’t get too crazy, and we had fellowship with other like minded localities. Trainings were a gathering together to hear an older experienced brother share scripture. Slowly, that older brother became the benchmark for spiritual truth and authority. Some of the elders in my locality left because of this, and the others signed off the “local” for the Mr. Big rule.
One would think that the saints and elders in the locality would read the word and be guided by the Spirit to come to their senses and reject the great rule of “God’s Anointed”, but they walked away from the simplicity of meeting together as the local church, and I left because my individual conscience did not agree with the “corporate” word and spirit.

Since that time, I’ve had a hard time jumping into any Christian organization, because none seem to have the desire for that simple Christian gathering experience that I found in the early 70’s. It’s not that I’m without Christian fellowship, it’s just that the idea of turning over my conscience to an authority or organization is not there. I’m fine with reading scripture and discussing it, I’m fine with praying and seeking God’s guidance, I’m not fine with the organizations that seem to replace the “church” with their own dogmas. I would say this is a historical, major problem with the church.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

When I first encountered the local church in ‘74, I thought “wow, Christians meeting together apart from the nonsense, and people were free to speak what they felt were their spiritual experiences”. The elders were there so that things didn’t get too crazy, and we had fellowship with other like minded localities. Trainings were a gathering together to hear an older experienced brother share scripture. Slowly, that older brother became the benchmark for spiritual truth and authority. Some of the elders in my locality left because of this, and the others signed off the “local” for the Mr. Big rule.
One would think that the saints and elders in the locality would read the word and be guided by the Spirit to come to their senses and reject the great rule of “God’s Anointed”, but they walked away from the simplicity of meeting together as the local church, and I left because my individual conscience did not agree with the “corporate” word and spirit.

Since that time, I’ve had a hard time jumping into any Christian organization, because none seem to have the desire for that simple Christian gathering experience that I found in the early 70’s. It’s not that I’m without Christian fellowship, it’s just that the idea of turning over my conscience to an authority or organization is not there. I’m fine with reading scripture and discussing it, I’m fine with praying and seeking God’s guidance, I’m not fine with the organizations that seem to replace the “church” with their own dogmas. I would say this is a historical, major problem with the church.

I think that one of the problems is that the LRC took what was being bridled by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians and reopened the spigot to create something that appeals to anyone who thinks the best meetings are a free-for-all.

Remember that in that letter, Paul pointed to the fact that "everyone has" a song, hymn, tongue, prophecy, etc., then went on to put limits on it all. Some of it was to suggest that there should be no tongue that would not be interpreted (presumably by someone who could actually understand the language — otherwise the "interpretation" could be whatever that person wanted to say no matter how unrelated to the alleged tongue it might be). The rest was to give boundaries for how many. Even to prophecying. I know we like to latch onto "all can prophecy," but Paul had already limited the number to prophesy to 2 or 3, so "all" cannot be understood as the whole congregation unless we ignore the restraint to only have 2 or 3.

But once we get the taste of popping up and saying something and getting that enthusiastic encouragement of "amen" — possibly more than once — it just "feels" like it was a spiritual thing and therefore must be supported by the Bible.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by OBW

I think that one of the problems is that the LRC took what was being bridled by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians and reopened the spigot to create something that appeals to anyone who thinks the best meetings are a free-for-all.

Remember that in that letter, Paul pointed to the fact that "everyone has" a song, hymn, tongue, prophecy, etc., then went on to put limits on it all. Some of it was to suggest that there should be no tongue that would not be interpreted (presumably by someone who could actually understand the language — otherwise the "interpretation" could be whatever that person wanted to say no matter how unrelated to the alleged tongue it might be). The rest was to give boundaries for how many. Even to prophecying. I know we like to latch onto "all can prophecy," but Paul had already limited the number to prophesy to 2 or 3, so "all" cannot be understood as the whole congregation unless we ignore the restraint to only have 2 or 3.

But once we get the taste of popping up and saying something and getting that enthusiastic encouragement of "amen" — possibly more than once — it just "feels" like it was a spiritual thing and therefore must be supported by the Bible.

[

It wasn't the pop up free for all that excited me, but the meeting where fellowship, and prayer, and praise, and singing etc., included all the saints. Most current Christian gatherings are pastor driven. In the LC, it went from fellowship to LSM dogma. The content of the LC became not the fellowship of the saints, but a selling of one's soul to LSM. You might say the soul of the LC became LSM.
I value the priesthood of every believer- in modern Christian church gatherings, it's pretty much pastoral.
So, in my view, what started in the LC thing as a recovery of the priesthood of every believer- as imperfect as that may have been, was sold out to LSM.
In Christiandom, the authority of the scripture seems more like a struggle for a preeminent interpretation, and if someone can present an authoritative interpretation the scriptures become secondary to that dogma. The little Christian reading the scripture and seeking God's guidance is directly confronted with the need to join with and meet with others. How can the individual spiritual walk be joined with others, who may not see the same things. I would say this is where the need for the fruit of the Spirit comes in- love, peace, joy, patience etc. This was rejected in the "recovery" for conformity to the LSM doctrine. The authority of the scripture for the individual who could gather together with others and fellowship, was sold out for a corporate LSM dogma.

[JJ]

Boxjobox the model of the one big cheese who has all of the spiritual insight up front by himself was never there in the first place (there was always a group of apostles with different viewpoints that when taken together with the prophetic writings of old compose the whole truth and the same is true today). One need not dismiss the whole of Christendom and avoid it. As with old times brothers and sisters with discernment are called to discern the spirits of today’s prophets, reject and walk away from the charlatans who gather sheep to feed their own greed and licentiousness and not despise the prophecies of those who with humble, selfless hearts, announce the gospel according to their God given gifts regardless of cost and are willing to work with others with different but complementing viewpoints with scripture (not their ministry or ministries) as the arbiter of truth, and God’s Holy Spirit of Truth testifies to it as well. When you have found that, it’s out there, sometimes hidden, you have found the ekklesia as God intends it. I have seen it in every city. Keep looking, it’s there. There is a One Body Life event “What does Ekklesia Look Like” near Sacramento Saturday to explore this very thing.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by JJ

Boxjobox the model of the one big cheese who has all of the spiritual insight up front by himself was never there in the first place (there was always a group of apostles with different viewpoints that when taken together with the prophetic writings of old compose the whole truth and the same is true today). One need not dismiss the whole of Christendom and avoid it. As with old times brothers and sisters with discernment are called to discern the spirits of today’s prophets, reject and walk away from the charlatans who gather sheep to feed their own greed and licentiousness and not despise the prophecies of those who with humble, selfless hearts, announce the gospel according to their God given gifts regardless of cost and are willing to work with others with different but complementing viewpoints with scripture (not their ministry or ministries) as the arbiter of truth, and God’s Holy Spirit of Truth testifies to it as well. When you have found that, it’s out there, sometimes hidden, you have found the ekklesia as God intends it. I have seen it in every city. Keep looking, it’s there. There is a One Body Life event “What does Ekklesia Look Like” near Sacramento Saturday to explore this very thing.

JJ- I think you are a little "all over the map" in this response. Here we have a question of authority of the Bible, the ekklesia, keep looking, the apostles, and about two thousand years later exploring a One Body Life, and a call not to dismiss the whole of Christondum? I think your response illustrates my point.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

When I first encountered the local church in ‘74, I thought “wow, Christians meeting together apart from the nonsense, and people were free to speak what they felt were their spiritual experiences”. The elders were there so that things didn’t get too crazy, and we had fellowship with other like minded localities. Trainings were a gathering together to hear an older experienced brother share scripture. Slowly, that older brother became the benchmark for spiritual truth and authority. Some of the elders in my locality left because of this, and the others signed off the “local” for the Mr. Big rule.
One would think that the saints and elders in the locality would read the word and be guided by the Spirit to come to their senses and reject the great rule of “God’s Anointed”, but they walked away from the simplicity of meeting together as the local church, and I left because my individual conscience did not agree with the “corporate” word and spirit.

Since that time, I’ve had a hard time jumping into any Christian organization, because none seem to have the desire for that simple Christian gathering experience that I found in the early 70’s. It’s not that I’m without Christian fellowship, it’s just that the idea of turning over my conscience to an authority or organization is not there. I’m fine with reading scripture and discussing it, I’m fine with praying and seeking God’s guidance, I’m not fine with the organizations that seem to replace the “church” with their own dogmas. I would say this is a historical, major problem with the church.

Much my experience . . . I was even lead to my first LC gathering in 74! And I agree, I relish the open meetings with the freedom for all to participate! There are some groups out there that do this, but admittedly I haven't found many. Large gatherings may have small groups where there is better participation for each member.

Too bad the general LC practice of open/participative meetings didn't catch on much elsewhere . . . (let's see how much flack I catch for saying that on here)

[aron]

With all respect due to the members of the forum, let's please revisit the original post. The topic was, as I understand it, that the scripture was being overturned by something I heard called "the interpreted word", and that interpretation being by one person alone who happened to be both author and publisher of a line of books, which publications were exclusively sold in churches affiliated with said publisher, to the point of anathamization if they did not buy and promote the publisher's materials! Now, what do you think that did to God's ability to speak to us through His word?

Let's try to stay close to the topic. Thanks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

With all respect due to the members of the forum, let's please revisit the original post. The topic was, as I understand it, that the scripture was being overturned by something I heard called "the interpreted word", and that interpretation being by one person alone who happened to be both author and publisher of a line of books, which publications were exclusively sold in churches affiliated with said publisher, to the point of anathamization if they did not buy and promote the publisher's materials! Now, what do you think that did to God's ability to speak to us through His word?

Let's try to stay close to the topic. Thanks.

If ByHisMercy's post was not on topic, then what does "staying close to topic" even mean?

Let me then apologize in advance for potentially posting off topic.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If ByHisMercy's post was not on topic, then what does "staying close to topic" even mean?

Originally Posted by Unregistered

One of the most important matter that the reformers brought to the protestant saints is that the believers submit to the Bible as the absolute authority. Regardless who you are, whether it's elder or newly saved one, you live your life according to the teaching of the Bible.

No, you're probably right on this. BHM seems to be supporting the original post.

In the case of the LC, we were told not to trust anything but the "interpreted word", which contradicted itself occasionally, which went against the NT reception of scripture, calling OT sections (e.g., 1/2 of the Psalms) "fallen" and so forth.

I've told this story before, what happened in the LC meeting when I quoted the "wrong verses". It didn't go over well. That section of the Bible didn't line up with the vision of the age, and should be ignored. The leaders of a group which specialized in teasing "Christ" out of the silver sockets of the ark, out of the windows in Noah's ark, suddenly didn't want to look at what the text of the Bible was saying.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

No, you're probably right on this. BHM seems to be supporting the original post.

In the case of the LC, we were told not to trust anything but the "interpreted word", which contradicted itself occasionally, which went against the NT reception of scripture, calling OT sections (e.g., 1/2 of the Psalms) "fallen" and so forth.

I've told this story before, what happened in the LC meeting when I quoted the "wrong verses". It didn't go over well. That section of the Bible didn't line up with the vision of the age, and should be ignored. The leaders of a group which specialized in teasing "Christ" out of the silver sockets of the ark, out of the windows in Noah's ark, suddenly didn't want to look at what the text of the Bible was saying.

I do support the opening posters' comments. In the case of Lee, and his interpretation of scripture, I would discard it in favor of the plain word of God interpreted via the indwelling Spirit! And in conjunction with Him, if we find supportive teachings that seem to be aligned with the word and aid in understanding, that's great too. Lately I have been learning to look at scripture with a viewpoint of dispensationalism and I believe this to be so helpful. My newfound understanding is helping me a lot.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

One of the most important matter that the reformers brought to the protestant saints is that the believers submit to the Bible as the absolute authority. Regardless who you are, whether it's elder or newly saved one, you live your life according to the teaching of the Bible. But in the LC, many times, the saints live or are bound by the leading brothers. It is unnecessary for an elder to tell you who you should be married to etc. Many were brainwashed to think brother Lee is like a prophet, the life studies like the only explanation of the bible. This is why the LC can't work together with the rest of the body. Oh lord have mercy to lead this group back to the right path.

Respectfully back to the opening post, and back to the topic of arranged marriages, where do we see precedent set for such activity in scripture? The putting together of young people by the behest of the elders.....what purpose does this serve and is there ANY scriptural basis for this? I have not seen it.

When I was in the LC, sisters were sent to speak to me regarding the relationship I was in before I met my now spouse, and then afterward, again, I was 'counciled' regarding my spouse. I married him anyway. I guess you can see I didn't make a very good LCer.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Respectfully back to the opening post, and back to the topic of arranged marriages, where do we see precedent set for such activity in scripture? The putting together of young people by the behest of the elders.....what purpose does this serve and is there ANY scriptural basis for this? I have not seen it.

When I was in the LC, sisters were sent to speak to me regarding the relationship I was in before I met my now spouse, and then afterward, again, I was 'counciled' regarding my spouse. I married him anyway. I guess you can see I didn't make a very good LCer.

Right byHismercy, you make a lousy LCer.

My conclusion to your question is this -- those in the LC system see their controlling of others as "shepherding," especially at the conclusion of the FTT.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Right byHismercy, you make a lousy LCer.

My conclusion to your question is this -- those in the LC system see their controlling of others as "shepherding," especially at the conclusion of the FTT.

Is that a cult thing? As in, if they can get you to bow down to them in such a personal, intimate, life long commitment......to even marry someone you don't love for the church, then they have your obedience in everything else.....it is a progressive system, I think. Step by step, until one trusts their leaders opinion above their own. Even trusting the leading brothers over your own council from the Lord. I remember the young sister who shepherded me into the LC in college. She was completely broken hearted because the boy she was in love with she could not marry. She was put together with a man who also just came out of the FTT. I can remember her crying with me. It was so sad. The turn around was so quick....seems like a week later she was engaged to this man I had never heard of and she acted happy about it. But looking back I am sure she was separated from her love because he wasn't in the church life. She and at least 2 other sisters I watched being married off in the same way.

I think to give your life over in the biggest commitment you will maybe ever make, if later, you discover an issue in which you have a dispute with those leaders, you would feel so foolish. You already said, in effect, they must know better than I on the matter of who I should spend the rest of my life with....

[Nell]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Respectfully back to the opening post, and back to the topic of arranged marriages, where do we see precedent set for such activity in scripture? The putting together of young people by the behest of the elders.....what purpose does this serve and is there ANY scriptural basis for this? I have not seen it.

What about Isaac and Rebekah? Gen. 24. Arranged by their fathers, “technically” not elders in the church, but likely the misused justification for arranged marriages today.

Nell

[OBW]

The whole idea as the absolute authority is somewhat ridiculous. No matter how you want to read it, it can never be seen as a concise compendium of what is absolutely THE answer to very many things. Rather, it is the revelation of the One who is the answer to everything.

Now in saying that God/Christ/the Spirit is "the answer to everything," I am not suggesting that you will find the answers to your physics homework by praying to God (not that he cannot provide the answers, but that he almost always will not). It's just that this is not what he is here for.

The problem with the bible as the absolute authority is, as suggested, that given the manner in which it is provided — stories, examples, metaphors, parables, etc. — there are not too many things on which it makes clear and unequivocal statements. Not saying that it "equivocates," but that it seldom makes its pronouncements that directly. If it were so absolute and precise, it would be too difficult to cover all it needs to without either being a library-sized encyclopedia or be woefully short on what it did cover.

And on the things it does seem to talk about, it does so in terms that are less-than direct and specific. That is part of the reason that there is even confusion on what precisely is required for salvation. In most evangelical circles (of which I am generally a part), there is a dire need for a date and time on which, in a somewhat "crisis" or decisive moment, you made a "decision" to "put your faith in Christ" (or other such terminology). And we tend to be suspicious of the salvation of those in older "traditions" who grow-up learning of God and Christ and eventually come to believe. If you ask those people when they "became a Christian," their answer is often vague or unsure because their belief is something that came to be over time, not all at once. Yet they believe, so how do you eliminate them? (BTW, when I say "unsure," I do not mean that they are not sure of their salvation, but that they cannot pinpoint a time and date of belief like an evangelical generally does.)

And all of this came from the same bible and is supported by it.

Don't get me started on predestination and the notion of absolute active sovereignty over everything v free will. Or the truth (or lack thereof) of the notion of falling away (losing salvation). I can justify both positions.

But it does record the gradual revelation of God — from creation (in a rather few vague descriptives) to the one who called Abram and eventually convinced him he would actually bear a son through his presumed-barren wife Sarah, to the one who parted the Red Sea and the River Jordan, caused a walled city to collapse, etc. And who eventually could no longer tolerate the spiritual adultery of the "chosen people" and let them suffer in Babylon, then brought them back (while still under the rule of others) to rebuild their temple.

Then came the promised savior. Not a military king, but a way (or the way) to live in the manner that had been decreed from the beginning.

A lot of good stuff for those whose desire is to believe, obey, and follow the one we call the Lord of lords. And for most of the act of belief, obedience, and following, having an opinion on predestination, when (or if) the rapture will occur, or the timespan and manner of creation, or understanding penal substitutionary atonement just isn't important. And the bible, as it is( rather than as a perfect compendium of everything), is quite profitable.

So, for an absolute authority, the Bible is actually rather poor. But as a revelation of God, it is excellent. And as a profitable source for teaching in righteousness, it is highly recommended (and with the inclusion of Paul's letters in the NT, it recommends itself).

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

as a profitable source for teaching in righteousness, it is highly recommended (and with the inclusion of Paul's letters in the NT, it recommends itself).

Also in Psalm 19 and 119, it recommends itself. And either the words are true, or they are not.

[Sons to Glory!]

It just occurred to me (therefore it could be wrong!) that a possible problem with the "Bible as the Absolute Authority" is that the Bible says so many things that can be pointed to to apply in any situation.

I remember the illustration someone made (was it possibly Max R?) that they were sure the Bible had all the answers and God would show it to them. So they put a Bible overhead and flipped the pages to see what scripture would be presented to follow. Without looking they put their finger on a verse and it landed on Matt 27:5; "Then he went away and hanged himself!” (referring to Judas)

So this admittedly is kind of a silly illustration. But hopefully the inner Anointing with fellowship is applied before hanging oneself!

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

Also in Psalm 19 and 119, it recommends itself. And either the words are true, or they are not.

I always like Psalm 19.

"The heavens are telling the glory of God."

Sang that in a choir back in high school. ("The Creation" by Hyden)

So not only does the Bible reveal God, but the very heavens do the same without words. And Paul underscores this in Romans. We all know something of God because of what is seen around us. We may dismiss it as simply "
natural," but it is there.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

What about Isaac and Rebekah? Gen. 24. Arranged by their fathers, “technically” not elders in the church, but likely the misused justification for arranged marriages today.

Nell

I remember talking to a Christian brother from India here studying at the University. He talked about how willing he was to trust his parents to find him a wife when he returned home. He willingly accepted this arranged marriage because of their love and wisdom for him. Obviously he was no fool. He knew 4 languages and was finishing a doctorate.

Compare this to LC arranged marriages: mostly rushed, spur-of-the-moment arrangements, good for the church, but with minimal concern for those involved. I watched too many of these. Supposedly the "cross" would fix any problems down the road.

Much to the contrary, read carefully the shepherding care of Abraham and his servant working together with the Spirit of God to find Isaac a bride. (Genesis 24)