A Christian Seeking Answers

MikhailianInception · 12-21-2019, 03:47 PM

Hi there,

I go by the name MikhailianInception. I'm just here because I have many questions about the Lord's Recovery/Local Church movement surrounding Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. I am new to this website. I had stumbled across this site during my research into this movement. I had also read a bit of Hank Hanegraaff's (Bible Answer Man) report on what they found in the Lord's recovery. I was in this movement for a few months in my last year of high school, but then I left due to what I felt to be sectarian and divisive behavior. Though I must admit that when it came to orthodoxy, for the most part, I still don't have problems with it. Except for secondary issues like Pre-Tribulation rapture and dispensationalism. I do not hold to those views as I do not really agree with a dispensationalist take on the Bible. It's only the orthopraxy that I have problems within the LC. I started a discussion here on this link, and you can find my list of questions and observations here - http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=6494

I hope you are all having a blessed day, my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- M.L.

Acolyte4236 · 12-21-2019, 04:29 PM

Here are my cards.

I am an (eastern) Orthodox Christian. I have never been a member of the LC, though I've had a fair amount of conversations with them in Orange County, California.

As to CRI and Hanegraaff, I also used to work for CRI and Hanegraaff, not long after Hanegraaff's coup to take over CRI after Martin's death.

I would tell you that you should put absolutely no stock in what Hank says on theological or philosophical matters. He has no earned degrees in any field and he has no competence in the biblical languages. All of his material is created for him by staff by and large (I witnessed this myself first hand.) or taken from other sources, and then read off a screen.

Hank drove out the vast majority of original researchers, people with actual degrees and field experience to aggrandize for himself profit. And the majority of those stand by their original assessment of the LC and Witness Lee.

The same goes for Fr. Jack Sparks and Fr. John Braun who did some of the original evaluations on the LC in the Spiritual Counterfeits Project.

I do not know whether Hank took a bribe to support the LC or whether he was duped by them. But I do know that when I worked there, Hank made deals in exchange for removing CRI's negative evaulation to do speaking engagements and we received financial contributions from those groups at the time.

You can see some of what I document here.

https://energeticprocession.wordpres...el-answer-man/

If you want to see what kind of person Hank is when he thinks he isn't being recorded, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=090a5t_Rv5c

MikhailianInception · 12-23-2019, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acolyte4236

Here are my cards.

I am an (eastern) Orthodox Christian. I have never been a member of the LC, though I've had a fair amount of conversations with them in Orange County, California.

As to CRI and Hanegraaff, I also used to work for CRI and Hanegraaff, not long after Hanegraaff's coup to take over CRI after Martin's death.

I would tell you that you should put absolutely no stock in what Hank says on theological or philosophical matters. He has no earned degrees in any field and he has no competence in the biblical languages. All of his material is created for him by staff by and large (I witnessed this myself first hand.) or taken from other sources, and then read off a screen.

Hank drove out the vast majority of original researchers, people with actual degrees and field experience to aggrandize for himself profit. And the majority of those stand by their original assessment of the LC and Witness Lee.

The same goes for Fr. Jack Sparks and Fr. John Braun who did some of the original evaluations on the LC in the Spiritual Counterfeits Project.

I do not know whether Hank took a bribe to support the LC or whether he was duped by them. But I do know that when I worked there, Hank made deals in exchange for removing CRI's negative evaulation to do speaking engagements and we received financial contributions from those groups at the time.

You can see some of what I document here.

https://energeticprocession.wordpres...el-answer-man/

If you want to see what kind of person Hank is when he thinks he isn't being recorded, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=090a5t_Rv5c

Hi Acolyte,

Thank you for sharing with me this link. Although it's a long read and I haven't started yet. I watched the YouTube video, which was pretty disturbing I did, however, read this on your website - https://energeticprocession.wordpres...cri-documents/

This letter contains some pretty damning stuff about Hank Hanegraaff. So, he was really that incompetent in terms of theology and apologetics? The letter also alleged that the way he treated his staff was like that of a tantrum.

Question for you: Did Hank Hanegraaff write "We Were Wrong" in the CRI journal (about the Lord's Recovery) to prevent his ministry from being sued? I know that's a theory I have because of the way the LC was suing Evangelical Churches for defamation. Was it a bribe?

Were you ever a part of the Lord's Recovery movement, Acolyte?

Thank you,

- M.L.

Acolyte4236 · 12-26-2019, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikhailianInception

Hi Acolyte,

Thank you for sharing with me this link. Although it's a long read and I haven't started yet. I watched the YouTube video, which was pretty disturbing I did, however, read this on your website - https://energeticprocession.wordpres...cri-documents/

This letter contains some pretty damning stuff about Hank Hanegraaff. So, he was really that incompetent in terms of theology and apologetics? The letter also alleged that the way he treated his staff was like that of a tantrum.

Question for you: Did Hank Hanegraaff write "We Were Wrong" in the CRI journal (about the Lord's Recovery) to prevent his ministry from being sued? I know that's a theory I have because of the way the LC was suing Evangelical Churches for defamation. Was it a bribe?

Were you ever a part of the Lord's Recovery movement, Acolyte?

Thank you,

- M.L.

Yes, Hank was pretty clueless. I worked in the radio studio for about a year so I could see what was happening in real time. Shows had to be edited because Hank made major theological mistakes that the regulars on the show did not make. Or those shows had so many errors in them that their recordings were never made public.

And he is not formally educated. Everything is memorized, which is why if you get him off what he has memorized, he is helpless. This is why he doesn't do debates. He did one debate I think in 2011 on the date of Revelation and got annihilated. He can't debate because he can't construct an argument and he never bothered to become educated in that or any related field. To my knowledge he has one year of undergrad education at Calvin College and then dropped out.

For example, Hank used to always say that the members of the Trinity were "separate." Well that would make them three Gods. He knew practically nothing about church history as well. I recall one caller who was a Wiccan who called in and was blasting Hank about the Crusades. Hank didn't even know when they took place.

And then of course all the calls now are highly screened. And he has a computer he can look up material in advance and just read from or for the monologues he has a teleprompter, so it is all pretty much fake. The callers are real, but it is the same basic stuff over and over again. On top of that, the vast majority of the research staff have been eliminated by the late 90's

That letter was written by Mike Stephens who was the head of the Broadcast dept, so he was higher level staff so he got to see more of Hank behind closed doors, but other senior staff report the same thing. There are about another three dozen letters just like that.

Yes, I have read Elliot's piece, but I thought it was pretty weak. The irony is that Jack Sparks and Jon Braun who did the original work on the LC became Orthodox priests, and I know for a fact that they never changed their position about the LC. And of course, Hank's own church considers the LC as heterodox as well, and that is even if everything in the Journal piece is true and exculpatory.

I don't think the shift was due to the threat of litigation. I think Paul Young got duped, I think Hank saw an opportunity for include a group he could squeeze in and make some money at the same time. That is his typical MO in my experience.

If memory serves, CRI's income spiked in 2009 to 9 million from about 5. I don't know in this case where that extra 4 million came from, but I do know when I was there int he early 1990's that when a deal was made, members of a given group would flood CRI with donations. It was a convenient way to cloak the transfer of funds.

And no, I was never a member of the LC.

Sons to Glory! · 12-26-2019, 10:51 AM

Is Haneraaff still even on the radio? I haven't heard him here in the Phoenix area for some time. The call-in "answer" brother who I now hear frequently on local Christian radio is Steve Gregg (The Narrow Path), who is pretty doggone good and who I find much more palatable. Bro Steve seems to have a pretty in-depth knowledge of scripture and I agree with him about 95% of the time. (which makes him alright in my book!

)

Acolyte4236 · 12-30-2019, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Is Haneraaff still even on the radio? I haven't heard him here in the Phoenix area for some time. The call-in "answer" brother who I now hear frequently on local Christian radio is Steve Gregg (The Narrow Path), who is pretty doggone good and who I find much more palatable. Bro Steve seems to have a pretty in-depth knowledge of scripture and I agree with him about 95% of the time. (which makes him alright in my book!

)

Yes, he has a handful of radio stations left. As to Steve Gregg, I have no idea what his qualifications could be. Honestly, if you read good books, then you don't need such persons.

Ohio · 12-23-2019, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acolyte4236

I do not know whether Hank took a bribe to support the LC or whether he was duped by them. But I do know that when I worked there, Hank made deals in exchange for removing CRI's negative evaluation to do speaking engagements and we received financial contributions from those groups at the time.

Thanks for confirming what we already knew.

Kevin · 12-21-2019, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Except for secondary issues like Pre-Tribulation rapture and dispensationalism. I do not hold to those views as I do not really agree with a dispensationalist take on the Bible.

What eschatology do you hold then? I have not studied eschatology in sufficient depth to have a position in which I'm confident. So far, dispensational premillenialism is what I learned since I was raised up as a church kid.

MikhailianInception · 12-21-2019, 06:41 PM

Hi Kevin,

Thank you for your response, brother! So, I am no expert, either. I just read here and there, and go through my Bible. The view I hold to is probably a Post-Tribulation. If I am not mistaken, the idea is that the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ happen at the same time. I don't believe in a rapture that happens 7 years before Christ's coming, and then the tribulation happens.

As I get older though, eschatology is not the foremost thought in my mind. It is how do I best serve and love Christ during my time on earth? I remember John Wesley was once asked, "If Jesus were to come back tomorrow, what would you do?" Some Christians would probably respond by saying, “Yikes! I’d be getting on my knees, confessing every sin I know of, and cry out to God in panic mode!” But, not Wesley. He just gave a calm reply, “I’ll be doing whatever God’s been calling me to do this whole time. I’ll do my devotions in the morning, serve in the orphanage, work on the hymnbooks with my brother Charles, etc.” In other words, Wesley was just being faithful and being present with Christ. He was ready for Judgment Day. I think the true Christian does not fear Jesus’s coming. I think the true Christian wants Jesus’s coming!

When it comes to eschatology, I am reminded by Jesus' words in Matthew 24:36-44: “36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” I realized how the prediction game is completely out of question in this passage. There is no way to know, predict, or theologize the End Times. Jesus comes when you don’t expect it. Every generation has gone through wars and rumors of wars. Christians in World War II thought that Jesus was coming back in their time. It’s completely understandable as the Bible mentions wars to be one of the signs. But, there really is no way to know! Some may say that this is a cop-out explanation. In other words, we are just making excuses for why Jesus hasn’t come after two world wars and the millenniums of famine and disease. Perhaps that is the case. But, more importantly, we need to see the bigger picture. Maybe the bigger picture is to be in the present moment of our reality, and to be faithful with what we are given right now!

Much of eschatology is speculation. There's premillennialism, postmillennialism, amillennialism, pre-trib, post-trib, etc. Who can tell which one is right or wrong? But, being faithful to Christ is what matters. How He comes or when He comes is secondary? When He does come, the only question He will ask us all on the Day, "Who do you say that I am?"

May the Lord bless you, brother, and keep you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy (Jude 24-25).

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- M.L.

12-21-2019, 03:47 PM	#1
MikhailianInception Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 17	A Christian Seeking Answers Hi there, I go by the name MikhailianInception. I'm just here because I have many questions about the Lord's Recovery/Local Church movement surrounding Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. I am new to this website. I had stumbled across this site during my research into this movement. I had also read a bit of Hank Hanegraaff's (Bible Answer Man) report on what they found in the Lord's recovery. I was in this movement for a few months in my last year of high school, but then I left due to what I felt to be sectarian and divisive behavior. Though I must admit that when it came to orthodoxy, for the most part, I still don't have problems with it. Except for secondary issues like Pre-Tribulation rapture and dispensationalism. I do not hold to those views as I do not really agree with a dispensationalist take on the Bible. It's only the orthopraxy that I have problems within the LC. I started a discussion here on this link, and you can find my list of questions and observations here - http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=6494 I hope you are all having a blessed day, my brothers and sisters in Christ. Your Servant in Jesus' Name, - M.L.

12-21-2019, 04:29 PM	#2
Acolyte4236 Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 48	Re: A Christian Seeking Answers Here are my cards. I am an (eastern) Orthodox Christian. I have never been a member of the LC, though I've had a fair amount of conversations with them in Orange County, California. As to CRI and Hanegraaff, I also used to work for CRI and Hanegraaff, not long after Hanegraaff's coup to take over CRI after Martin's death. I would tell you that you should put absolutely no stock in what Hank says on theological or philosophical matters. He has no earned degrees in any field and he has no competence in the biblical languages. All of his material is created for him by staff by and large (I witnessed this myself first hand.) or taken from other sources, and then read off a screen. Hank drove out the vast majority of original researchers, people with actual degrees and field experience to aggrandize for himself profit. And the majority of those stand by their original assessment of the LC and Witness Lee. The same goes for Fr. Jack Sparks and Fr. John Braun who did some of the original evaluations on the LC in the Spiritual Counterfeits Project. I do not know whether Hank took a bribe to support the LC or whether he was duped by them. But I do know that when I worked there, Hank made deals in exchange for removing CRI's negative evaulation to do speaking engagements and we received financial contributions from those groups at the time. You can see some of what I document here. https://energeticprocession.wordpres...el-answer-man/ If you want to see what kind of person Hank is when he thinks he isn't being recorded, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=090a5t_Rv5c

12-26-2019, 10:51 AM	#5
Sons to Glory! Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,617	Re: A Christian Seeking Answers Is Haneraaff still even on the radio? I haven't heard him here in the Phoenix area for some time. The call-in "answer" brother who I now hear frequently on local Christian radio is Steve Gregg (The Narrow Path), who is pretty doggone good and who I find much more palatable. Bro Steve seems to have a pretty in-depth knowledge of scripture and I agree with him about 95% of the time. (which makes him alright in my book! ) __________________ LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS!

12-21-2019, 06:41 PM	#9
MikhailianInception Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 17	Re: A Christian Seeking Answers Hi Kevin, Thank you for your response, brother! So, I am no expert, either. I just read here and there, and go through my Bible. The view I hold to is probably a Post-Tribulation. If I am not mistaken, the idea is that the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ happen at the same time. I don't believe in a rapture that happens 7 years before Christ's coming, and then the tribulation happens. As I get older though, eschatology is not the foremost thought in my mind. It is how do I best serve and love Christ during my time on earth? I remember John Wesley was once asked, "If Jesus were to come back tomorrow, what would you do?" Some Christians would probably respond by saying, “Yikes! I’d be getting on my knees, confessing every sin I know of, and cry out to God in panic mode!” But, not Wesley. He just gave a calm reply, “I’ll be doing whatever God’s been calling me to do this whole time. I’ll do my devotions in the morning, serve in the orphanage, work on the hymnbooks with my brother Charles, etc.” In other words, Wesley was just being faithful and being present with Christ. He was ready for Judgment Day. I think the true Christian does not fear Jesus’s coming. I think the true Christian wants Jesus’s coming! When it comes to eschatology, I am reminded by Jesus' words in Matthew 24:36-44: “36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” I realized how the prediction game is completely out of question in this passage. There is no way to know, predict, or theologize the End Times. Jesus comes when you don’t expect it. Every generation has gone through wars and rumors of wars. Christians in World War II thought that Jesus was coming back in their time. It’s completely understandable as the Bible mentions wars to be one of the signs. But, there really is no way to know! Some may say that this is a cop-out explanation. In other words, we are just making excuses for why Jesus hasn’t come after two world wars and the millenniums of famine and disease. Perhaps that is the case. But, more importantly, we need to see the bigger picture. Maybe the bigger picture is to be in the present moment of our reality, and to be faithful with what we are given right now! Much of eschatology is speculation. There's premillennialism, postmillennialism, amillennialism, pre-trib, post-trib, etc. Who can tell which one is right or wrong? But, being faithful to Christ is what matters. How He comes or when He comes is secondary? When He does come, the only question He will ask us all on the Day, "Who do you say that I am?" May the Lord bless you, brother, and keep you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy (Jude 24-25). Your Servant in Jesus' Name, - M.L.