Science scratches its' head

[byHismercy]

https://www.space.com/hubble-constan...explained.html

This link is to an article at space.com wherein the astronomer is scratching his head, metaphorically, and wondering how the Earth could possibly be the center of the universe, as it appears to be.

I absolutely love this. God is great, God is an awesome creator, and when science subtracts Him from His creation, they just get a mystery. I have never seen this queried in print, by someone who is looking closely at His creation. Maybe we, as His masterpiece, are at the very heart of everything He made. If we are the center of the entire universe.....that is bound to cause some unbelievers to think on Him! Praise Jesus, folks. He is absolutely Awesome.

[JJ]

Interesting, and well said ByHisMercy.

https://biblehub.com/hebrews/11-3.htm
The only way to understand the universe is by faith in God

[byHismercy]

Thanks JJ.......our Lord speaks world framing words, and just like that, there the worlds are!! Jesus is worthy of awe and worship!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by JJ

Interesting, and well said ByHisMercy.

https://biblehub.com/hebrews/11-3.htm
The only way to understand the universe is by faith in God

Since Aristotle (4th c. BCE) otherworldliness was eliminated as empirically unprovable, so eliminated from scientific study and research.

That's not to say that since scientists haven't been believers. They couldn't help it. The Roman Catholic church was the government for millennia. So some scientists, like Giordano Bruno, were burn at the stake for claiming the earth wasn't the center of the universe. The microscope prove him right, and the church wrong.

So faith in God, in the past, has greatly limited the understanding of the universe ... sorry to say.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Since Aristotle (4th c. BCE) otherworldliness was eliminated as empirically unprovable, so eliminated from scientific study and research.

That's not to say that since scientists haven't been believers. They couldn't help it. The Roman Catholic church was the government for millennia. So some scientists, like Giordano Bruno, were burn at the stake for claiming the earth wasn't the center of the universe. The microscope prove him right, and the church wrong.

So faith in God, in the past, has greatly limited the understanding of the universe ... sorry to say.

Like ByHisMercy, who started this thread, I would make the opposite conclusion -- faith in God has never limited our understanding of the universe. In fact, the greatest hoax ever inflicted on mankind is that there is no God and this universe evolved on its own.

Somehow awareness started to believe, contrary to all evidence, that the Popes in Rome had faith in God because they called themselves the church. I would say "prove it," since all they have done is persecute the real believers for more than a millennia. That's not to say that some Catholics are not real believers, but that I never saw any signs of faith emanating from the Vatican.

[Sons to Glory!]

Hey - what if we found out the Roman Church actually was the one, true gathering?!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hey - what if we found out the Roman Church actually was the one, true gathering?!

They murdered thousands of believers -- many tortured mercilessly -- so if they are "the one, true gathering," I am looking for another God.

And I did. Many historians, rightly so, have determined that Mary is the god of the Roman Church.

[Sons to Glory!]

Oh boy - have we finally figured out that man (apart from faith) really doesn't have a clue? Nah!

[Nuclear]

As a response to the original purpose of the thread:

The idea of a "center" as stated in this article doesn't really line up with what byHisMercy thinks it means. The reason that we appear to be at the center of the universe from a visual standpoint is because the light that reaches us at this particular point in space from the edge of the universe is going to make a near perfect sphere with us at the center. However the same is true for any point in space, so the idea of being at the center is relative.

Similar with expansion, there is no true objective center of expansion, its entirely relative. Visually its explained perfectly here: https://youtu.be/W4c-gX9MT1Q?t=9

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

As a response to the original purpose of the thread:

The idea of a "center" as stated in this article doesn't really line up with what byHisMercy thinks it means. The reason that we appear to be at the center of the universe from a visual standpoint is because the light that reaches us at this particular point in space from the edge of the universe is going to make a near perfect sphere with us at the center. However the same is true for any point in space, so the idea of being at the center is relative.

Hubble said the universe was expanding in all directions, with points farthest away moving fastest. So, if this is true, is there not a center of the universe, a starting point?

[Nuclear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hubble said the universe was expanding in all directions, with points farthest away moving fastest. So, if this is true, is there not a center of the universe, a starting point?

No it does not. Take for example two concentric circles, one being half the radius of the other, lets say respectively 1 meter and 2 meters. You are in the center. Both expand to twice their radius (to represent the expansion of a plane that these circles are attached to) over the course of 1 second.

The edge of the smaller circle moved away from you at 1 meter per second.

The edge of the larger circle would have moved away from you at 2 meters per second.

This aligns with what Hubble observed and works for any point on this plane, its mathematically proven. Again there needs be no center, even if this plane began from a single point.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hubble said the universe was expanding in all directions, with points farthest away moving fastest. So, if this is true, is there not a center of the universe, a starting point?

How do we know if there's a center if we don't know the other edges.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

As a response to the original purpose of the thread:

The idea of a "center" as stated in this article doesn't really line up with what byHisMercy thinks it means. The reason that we appear to be at the center of the universe from a visual standpoint is because the light that reaches us at this particular point in space from the edge of the universe is going to make a near perfect sphere with us at the center. However the same is true for any point in space, so the idea of being at the center is relative.

Similar with expansion, there is no true objective center of expansion, its entirely relative. Visually its explained perfectly here: https://youtu.be/W4c-gX9MT1Q?t=9

Finally a level-headed view on the matter of 'the center.'

Same for man being the center of what God is doing. That's just a view from our ego. Cuz we don't know all that God is doing. For all we know there's other life out in this vast universe, that think they are the center of what God is doing.

If we go by the Bible, we're but maggots : Job 25:6

And btw, welcome Nuclear.

[Nuclear]

Originally Posted by awareness

And btw, welcome Nuclear.

Thanks for the welcome! I plan to make an introductory post yet, but I've been lurking for a bit. An introduction is hopefully in short order.

Agreed as well on the ego bit. It seems to me at least that its just an extension of each of us seeing ourselves as the main character in our story, when in reality that how everyone sees themselves. For all we know, humanity's existence in the cosmos could be just as insignificant as our individual presence among the humanity.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

Thanks for the welcome! I plan to make an introductory post yet, but I've been lurking for a bit. An introduction is hopefully in short order.

Agreed as well on the ego bit. It seems to me at least that its just an extension of each of us seeing ourselves as the main character in our story, when in reality that how everyone sees themselves. For all we know, humanity's existence in the cosmos could be just as insignificant as our individual presence among the humanity.

Looking forward to your introduction.

And in truth we are the center of the universe ... in that the awareness reading these words is at the center of all that we experience.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

As a response to the original purpose of the thread:

The idea of a "center" as stated in this article doesn't really line up with what byHisMercy thinks it means. The reason that we appear to be at the center of the universe from a visual standpoint is because the light that reaches us at this particular point in space from the edge of the universe is going to make a near perfect sphere with us at the center. However the same is true for any point in space, so the idea of being at the center is relative.

Similar with expansion, there is no true objective center of expansion, its entirely relative. Visually its explained perfectly here: https://youtu.be/W4c-gX9MT1Q?t=9

I'm not sure I understand this, but I have not studied astronomy in any depth at all. Maybe you can help me understand a question that niggles my brain these days....

Moon orbits the earth about once a day. Earth revolves on its' axis every 24 hours. Earth and moon together orbit the sun once every 364 1/4 days. And somehow, in a miraculous way, the moon appears to follow the sun's path in the sky, rising in the east and setting in the west every night. I just can't wrap my brain around this special relationship they have. I mean, HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? Anybody elses' mind boggles witnessing Gods' creation?? If you can explain that.....

My mind and heart praise Jesus! Everything I look a little deeper into His creation, He displays His awesome hand!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I'm not sure I understand this, but I have not studied astronomy in any depth at all. Maybe you can help me understand a question that niggles my brain these days....

Moon orbits the earth about once a day. Earth revolves on its' axis every 24 hours. Earth and moon together orbit the sun once every 364 1/4 days. And somehow, in a miraculous way, the moon appears to follow the sun's path in the sky, rising in the east and setting in the west every night. I just can't wrap my brain around this special relationship they have. I mean, HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? Anybody elses' mind boggles witnessing Gods' creation?? If you can explain that.....

My mind and heart praise Jesus! Everything I look a little deeper into His creation, He displays His awesome hand!

Edited to correct my mistake......according to Google, the moon orbits the earth every 27ish days, and simultaneously it revolves on its' own axis also once every 27 days, giving it the appearance of not revolving at all (we never see the far side of the moon from here).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I'm not sure I understand this, but I have not studied astronomy in any depth at all. Maybe you can help me understand a question that niggles my brain these days....

Moon orbits the earth about once a day. Earth revolves on its' axis every 24 hours. Earth and moon together orbit the sun once every 364 1/4 days. And somehow, in a miraculous way, the moon appears to follow the sun's path in the sky, rising in the east and setting in the west every night. I just can't wrap my brain around this special relationship they have. I mean, HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN? Anybody elses' mind boggles witnessing Gods' creation?? If you can explain that.....

My mind and heart praise Jesus! Everything I look a little deeper into His creation, He displays His awesome hand!

Yes, yes, yes. Me too.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

As a response to the original purpose of the thread:

The idea of a "center" as stated in this article doesn't really line up with what byHisMercy thinks it means. The reason that we appear to be at the center of the universe from a visual standpoint is because the light that reaches us at this particular point in space from the edge of the universe is going to make a near perfect sphere with us at the center. However the same is true for any point in space, so the idea of being at the center is relative.

Similar with expansion, there is no true objective center of expansion, its entirely relative. Visually its explained perfectly here: https://youtu.be/W4c-gX9MT1Q?t=9

I will be honest: that video didn't help me at all (and many others in the comments apparently too), but in reading the comments I did realize that I had made a mental error in my conception of the big bang. I essentially had space and time existing already, but just empty, and then the big bang was all the matter that exploded in space. But the big bang IS space, time, and matter all co-relative, so the singularity really is the whole universe, including all of space. But since we are limited beings, my brain still has to create a thing called "non-space space" in which to put the singularity in order to make sense of it all.

It still seems to me though, that if we are God "outside" of time and space watching the formation of the universe, then at the point in time that the universe was, say, 1,000,000 miles wide in its expansion, there would be a measurable center 500,000 miles from all edges, which would remain the center even as it all expands to where we are today.

Some say in the comments that the universe has always been infinite, even in the context of the big bang. If that's true, I can't wrap my head around it.

[Nuclear]

Originally Posted by Trapped

It still seems to me though, that if we are God "outside" of time and space watching the formation of the universe, then at the point in time that the universe was, say, 1,000,000 miles wide in its expansion, there would be a measurable center 500,000 miles from all edges, which would remain the center even as it all expands to where we are today.

Some say in the comments that the universe has always been infinite, even in the context of the big bang. If that's true, I can't wrap my head around it.

I agree the concept is really hard to comprehend and understand, and the idea of infinity in both math and science is probably one of the most fascinating.

There is an analogy though that helped me understand it quite a bit better though. The comments are correct, in the context of the big bang the universe is invite, always and forever, its the nature of this infinity that changes.

Essentially prior to the big bang, what you have is a singularity of infinite density and infinite mass, but zero (and I mean absolute zero space). When this singularity "opens" for lack of better terminology, it shifts to infinite space of infinite mass but a finite density. The only thing that changes after this point in time is the density.

Essentially, imagine a theoretical ruler, one that is infinite in length. Then imagine a standard inch on it. Each inch is subdivided into 1/12", 2/12", 3/12" and so on. Now, imagine a force stretching this inch to double its original length, doing it to every inch along the ruler simultaneously. Each subdivision is twice as far apart as it was before, but has the length of the ruler itself changed?

No, it was infinite in length before, and it is still infinite now despite each part that makes it up being twice as long. Now just imagine each subdivision being a particle or piece of mass, and you essentially have a picture of universal expansion without an edge.

The cone analogy that you often see doesn't describe the edge of the universe in that sort of sense, think of it more like a description of density change.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nuclear

I agree the concept is really hard to comprehend and understand, and the idea of infinity in both math and science is probably one of the most fascinating.

There is an analogy though that helped me understand it quite a bit better though. The comments are correct, in the context of the big bang the universe is invite, always and forever, its the nature of this infinity that changes.

Essentially prior to the big bang, what you have is a singularity of infinite density and infinite mass, but zero (and I mean absolute zero space). When this singularity "opens" for lack of better terminology, it shifts to infinite space of infinite mass but a finite density. The only thing that changes after this point in time is the density.

Essentially, imagine a theoretical ruler, one that is infinite in length. Then imagine a standard inch on it. Each inch is subdivided into 1/12", 2/12", 3/12" and so on. Now, imagine a force stretching this inch to double its original length, doing it to every inch along the ruler simultaneously. Each subdivision is twice as far apart as it was before, but has the length of the ruler itself changed?

No, it was infinite in length before, and it is still infinite now despite each part that makes it up being twice as long. Now just imagine each subdivision being a particle or piece of mass, and you essentially have a picture of universal expansion without an edge.

The cone analogy that you often see doesn't describe the edge of the universe in that sort of sense, think of it more like a description of density change.

Okay, I understand the ruler analogy. Thanks. But this would mean the universe went from absolute zero space to infinite space in a nanonanonanonanonanosecond? It seems strange there is no interim where the universe is 1 foot across, then 10 miles across, then 1,000, then 1,000,000, etc.

Can you have infinite space and infinite mass? It seems if this was the case then density would always be 1, or at least unchanging. If the universe is expanding wouldn't it by definition be getting less dense? Or does its infinite nature undo that?

(Infinity in math is a mind-blower......like all the even and odd numbers to infinity is the same as just all the odd numbers to infinity. One is a subset of the other, but they are still the same in "quantity").

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Okay, I understand the ruler analogy. Thanks. But this would mean the universe went from absolute zero space to infinite space in a nanonanonanonanonanosecond? It seems strange there is no interim where the universe is 1 foot across, then 10 miles across, then 1,000, then 1,000,000, etc.

Can you have infinite space and infinite mass? It seems if this was the case then density would always be 1, or at least unchanging. If the universe is expanding wouldn't it by definition be getting less dense? Or does its infinite nature undo that?

(Infinity in math is a mind-blower......like all the even and odd numbers to infinity is the same as just all the odd numbers to infinity. One is a subset of the other, but they are still the same in "quantity").

As a young Catholic kid I struggled with infinity. Like how old is God, and what was God doing all that time before creation? My young brain would finally explode, and I would give up. Now I distinguish between eternal life and everlasting life. Eternal life is timeless, and everlasting life is time without ending. I don't know if it's true, but at least my brain stopped exploding.