Quote From Today's Watchman/Witness Wednesday

[Trapped]

I just had to stop and comment on the "Witness Wednesday" quote currently on the front page.....

"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate. Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local. If we are up-to-date in following the Lord, we will realize that today is the day of the local churches."
The Seven Spirits for the Local Churches Living Stream Ministry, 1989

I just.......I mean......am I the only one who reads this and thinks....."ffffffwwwwhhhaaatttt??"

KNOWING GOD OR KNOWING CHRIST IS NOT ADEQUATE??? You mean Lee's local churches are a higher sphere than God?!?!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I just had to stop and comment on the "Witness Wednesday" quote currently on the front page.....

"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate. Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local. If we are up-to-date in following the Lord, we will realize that today is the day of the local churches."

Trapped, that fellowship is outdated.

The local churches soon became "merely a procedure."

Then to know the local churches was also not adequate.

One must know the body of Christ!

Later, that too became inadequate and one must now know the unique new testament ministry.

Then you are up-to-date!

Get the picture?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Trapped, that fellowship is outdated.

The local churches soon became "merely a procedure."

Then to know the local churches was also not adequate.

One must know the body of Christ!

Later, that too became inadequate and one must now know the unique new testament ministry.

Then you are up-to-date!

Get the picture?

Weird! It's almost as if God's ministry changes at the whim of his "messengers"

[UntoHim]

Witness Lee
"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate."

The Lord Jesus Christ
And this is eternal life, that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 17:3

I don't know about y'all, but I think I'm going to go with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and maybe just ignore Witness Lee.
-

[aron]

"Today is the day of the local churches"

Similar to Pol Pot saying, "It is the year zero." If you rise from the dead and walk on water, you can say stuff like that.

Otherwise, you have just exposed yourself. A tin-horn satrap.

[Truthseeker]

Yeah,I also felt stumbled when I saw this quote. I demand explanation for this quote. If not, can you remove it? We need to remove leavened teaching from His unleavened Body.

[Truthseeker]

What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.

[aron]

I read a quote from when LSM went into PRC in '79. "The age of the Word is over - it is now the age of the Spirit." And how much nuttiness followed that?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.

And all believers throughout history too.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.

Let's not forget all the millions of brothers and sisters who came before us, many who suffered the loss of health, life, reputation, family, and possessions. They are in the universal church, and as it says in Hebrews, somehow they are a great cloud of witnesses.

[Trapped]

Okay, okay, so today's not Witness Wednesday, it's Watchman Wednesday.

But what on earth does Watchman's quote mean?

I read it and it comes across something like "arghblhararhglhbahralrhghahlble"

(I actually think the quote is circular referencing back to itself as an example of the stifling of productive thought.......)

The quote is:

"If any person desires to think, he must possess memory, imagination and reasoning power; but the Christian has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think. He cannot create, deduce or recollect, nor can he compare, judge and apprehend. Therefore he cannot think. And should he attempt to do so he experiences a kind of dazed sensation which stifles any productive thought."

Watchman Nee, might had a dazed sensation ad prophesied concerning his Lee-Blended 'spiritual decendants'.

This branch of his 'decendants' as Nee predicted -"has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think. He cannot create, deduce or recollect, nor can he compare, judge and apprehend. Therefore he cannot think. And should he attempt to do so he experiences a kind of dazed sensation which stifles any productive thought."

-

[OBW]

Trapped,

So you are beginning to see the nature of the ones who would be the Minister of the Age. They get away with jibberish because it sounds so spiritual.

I'm sure someone said or wrote something about this very statement saying how enlightening it was.

And since it was from the Spiritual Man which was essentially his first book, it just shows how spiritually "enlightened" Nee was in his early days. Fast-forwards to Authority and Submission (aka Spiritual Authority) and since everything else fits in between, you have to wonder if there is any reason to take anything he wrote seriously.

But many did, including many who did not follow Lee.

I'm not saying that there are not true statements in any particular writing of Nee or Lee. But with the junk like that little quip mixed in, it looks like the true has been hijacked to serve the false.

[Sons to Glory!]

I'm curious - what do you-ins think are Nee's and Lee's best books (and I suspect everyone will probably automatically include what they think are their worst . . .)?

[UntoHim]

Firstly, Watchman Nee only wrote one book - The Spiritual Man. (which he wrote in his early-mid 20s)
Witness Lee, to my knowledge, only wrote one book - Watchman Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age (a highly self-serving and dubious biographical history of the life and times and ministry of Watchman Nee)

I think it is important to keep in mind that all the other publications are transcribed/edited versions of Nee and Lee's spoken ministry. In the case of Nee, all the publications were taken from the personal notes of members of the Little Flock/Local Churches in China. In the case of Lee, most publications are simply transcribed/edited versions of his spoken ministry - the vast majority which were taken from conferences and the semi-annual trainings. Do to the technology of electronic recording, the LSM publications of Witness Lee are vastly more accurate and faithful to the spoken messages. Yet we also know that many of Lee's most controversial speakings were edited out of the printed publications by Ron Kangas and other editors.

The problem with your question, my dear brother SontoGlory!, is that in most cases the publications contain some very biblical, healthy teachings AND ALSO some very unbiblical, unhealthy teachings. In fact, I think it would be hard to find one of the publications of Nee or Lee that is totally one or the other. And this is what makes them so very dangerous to younger and/or new believers, or those brothers and sisters who have little to no history of being taught biblical, healthy and theologically orthodox teachings.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Okay, but I actually didn't ask how they got into print, just which books were the best (and worst).

Many on here may be quite biased against ANY of their publications, so let me start it out by stating one best for each.

NEE - The Normal Christian Life Several I know, including myself, have gotten (and continue to get) liberating help from this book.

LEE - The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life In reading this book with some Ohio LC bros (back in the 80s), I had perhaps the strongest bubbling-up enjoyment of the Lord I've ever had.

Alright, load up your cannons . . .

Originally Posted by Trapped

I just had to stop and comment on the "Witness Wednesday" quote currently on the front page.....

"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate. Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local. If we are up-to-date in following the Lord, we will realize that today is the day of the local churches."
The Seven Spirits for the Local Churches Living Stream Ministry, 1989

I just.......I mean......am I the only one who reads this and thinks....."ffffffwwwwhhhaaatttt??"

KNOWING GOD OR KNOWING CHRIST IS NOT ADEQUATE??? You mean Lee's local churches are a higher sphere than God?!?!

Can you give me sources pls?

[UntoHim]

The sources for what?
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Can you give me sources pls?

You have the quote, the author, the publisher, the date, and the book.

What else do you need?

[Freedom]

His teaching is a system which is based on his theology and terminology, and cannot be understood without first being trained in that terminology.

This statement is a good way to summarize a lot of what is wrong with what was taught by WN/WL. There is something very deliberate about the lingo used that is intended to obstruct people from questioning what was being spoken.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This statement is a good way to summarize a lot of what is wrong with what was taught by WN/WL. There is something very deliberate about the lingo used that is intended to obstruct people from questioning what was being spoken.

That's actually one thing that stuck out from the CRI We Were Wrong edition, and drove me up the wall. They often heavily implied that the fault lies with the general public for not taking the time to read through ALL of Lee's ministry to understand the entire breadth of what he meant by a certain word.

Well, those words are, for example, "Christianity", which already has a standard meaning in the English language. In reality the fault lies with Lee who hijacked a positive word and twisted the meaning into something negative, and who then expected everyone else around him to go along with it.

Or a certain concept, like the Son is the Father. CRI criticizes detractors for not thoroughly reading and getting into and parsing ALL of what Lee said about the Son and the Father in order to understand all the "twofoldness of the truth" or how "balanced" he was (read: contradictory).

To me, if someone is so dumb as to make a statement like "the Son is the Father" and not balance it out in that very paragraph or chapter or book so that his shocking and heretical words are not misunderstood, but instead blames everyone else for not somehow digging out all the sporadic parts in his ridiculous numbers of rehashed books where he touches on the topic.....then he's a pretty poor choice for "minister of the age" if you ask me.

I'm so sick of what a clown show so much of the LC is. I feel like vomiting them out of my mouth too.

[Trapped]

Oh the article linked under today's quote is phenomenal.

It also says, "Instead of being taught biblical things in biblical terms, we are forced to learn a system before we can understand what is being taught about the Bible, and thus, this teaching must be run through the filter of the system of interpretation being employed. A failure to learn the system makes reading Nee’s work confusing and not really understandable to the uninitiated. For example, terms like “soulish” and “soulical” (neither of which are in the Bible or the English Dictionary) are used repeatedly. Soulish essentially represents worldly or non-spiritual attitudes and behavior, while soulical represents spiritual attitudes and behavior. Had Nee simply used the biblical terms themselves rather than inventing other terms, the book would be far more helpful to the average reader, and its errors more obvious."

It's great.

https://www.douglasjacoby.com/watchm...WFRwFGFQOLCIEA

[aron]

(From today's 'Witness Wednesday')

Witness Lee: In the heavens, where man cannot see, God the Father;

Jesus: Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. ~John 5:19

Didn't anyone, ever, correct Witness Lee? All those thousands of messages, and nobody once stood up and said, "Um, Mr Lee... it says here that..."?

I mean, did or did not Jesus say that he saw the Father in heaven? So, why does Witness Lee say what he said? And why did nobody challenge him?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

(From today's 'Witness Wednesday')

Witness Lee: In the heavens, where man cannot see, God the Father;

Jesus: Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. ~John 5:19

Didn't anyone, ever, correct Witness Lee? All those thousands of messages, and nobody once stood up and said, "Um, Mr Lee... it says here that..."?

I mean, did or did not Jesus say that he saw the Father in heaven? So, why does Witness Lee say what he said? And why did nobody challenge him?

My remembrance is Lee gave his own answer to this. I believe it was like this: "How can this be (that the Son saw the Father)? I don't know. It's a mystery" he would say with a smile and a chuckle. Therefore we just agreed to his preemptive response on the matter. Again, please don't quote me, but I remember this kind of thing being said a few times. Does anybody else remember that?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

My remembrance is Lee gave his own answer to this. I believe it was like this: "How can this be (that the Son saw the Father)? I don't know. It's a mystery" he would say with a smile and a chuckle. Therefore we just agreed to his preemptive response on the matter. Again, please don't quote me, but I remember this kind of thing being said a few times. Does anybody else remember that?

Thanks for the observation. It sounds on par with my experiences in the meetings.

"When I see something, it's 'so clear', and when I don't see something, it's 'a mystery' ".

Actually, that's similar to my positions, probably, as with many others, if not most of us. In some regards, WL was no different from any of us, yet the problem is that with him it was all amplified. My ignorance and suppositions aren't being codified at training centres round the world. Thank God!

But even if so, the "mystery" of Jesus Christ on earth seeing his Father in heaven largely wipes out the meaning of the "Witness Wednesday" quote. (Again, I sometimes do the same, making generalisations which, if qualified as they ought, would not have the impact that I want. So I oversimplify, but at great peril).

But it's important that we don't be too harsh in our critiques of WL or the Blendeds, because in so many ways they show us ourselves, vain, grasping, foolish, full of ourselves. May we learn to show mercy to others, that mercy be shown to us. Yet may we expose error, where it comes forth, especially in ourselves!

But let's keep asking questions. How can the Son sit at the Father's right hand, if the Son is the Father?

"Well, it's a mystery"

Okaaay....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

But let's keep asking questions. How can the Son sit at the Father's right hand, if the Son is the Father?

"Well, it's a mystery"

Okaaay....

Applying our faith to the word of God may not be the same as asking questions. Unfortunately we can get stuck in quicksand if questions remain in logic or the physical realm.

For example, Revelation 22.1 says, "the throne of God and the Lamb." Is the Lamb on the throne or at God's right hand? One throne or two? How big is that throne? I could go on . . .

And yes, it is a mystery. No doubt. We are not instructed to understand, but to believe and obey what we probably cannot understand. I didn't make the rules, God did.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And yes, it is a mystery. No doubt. We are not instructed to understand, but to believe and obey what we probably cannot understand. I didn't make the rules, God did.

I started this tangent by objecting to the statement posted: "Man cannot see the Father in heaven". Of course we can find a verse that supports this. But we can also see verses that don't support this at all. I was pointing out the 'inconvenient' verse that doesn't line up with the bald assertion of the Seer of the Divine Revelation (Lee's appellation for Nee, which he no doubt assumed for himself).

Now, as StG notes, the context of that quote may be some equivocation or circumspection by the speaker. We don't see that, just the quote. So I objected to the statement as it stands.

To me, that is the important thing. Not that I am 'right' or 'have the high peak truth' or even try to overturn others. My point in all of this is to say, "I will not be pushed around, I will not be bullied. If I don't see what you see, I won't sit there quietly and 'take it'. No. I have a voice. Right or wrong it is mine."

So I won't take "no man on earth sees the Father in heaven." Jesus' statement clearly belies that. Now, what does that mean? There are still mysteries there. But just to take the bland word as some truth or fact, No. Witness Lee's hold on my mind is over.

"For freedom, Christ has set you free. Stand fast, therefore, and do not be entangled again with the yoke of slavery."

The problem with Lee, following Nee, and shared by many others, is that they do systematic theology based on a few verses, in which they apply their own readings, guided by ignorant self-oriented intentions. (yes I do the same thing but I'm not opening training centres). And then the verses that don't line up with the 'revelation' they say, "Well, it's a mystery" or they try to minimize them or they say "That's Peter's fallen human concepts" (!!!) And I object to that system of enforced ignorance and superstition. And I will continue to object.

[Freedom]

In order for us to learn to be an authority, we must also learn to set ourselves apart from the brothers and sisters. We need to refrain from many things which we otherwise could do or say. We should be separated in our speech and in our emotion. We cannot be too loose or easy-going. Sparrows fly in company, but the eagles fly alone. If we can only fly low and not suffer the loneliness of flying high, we are not qualified to be an authority. In order to be an authority, we have to be restricted and must separate ourselves.

When I saw this quote, what immediately came to mind is that many of those who are in leadership positions in the LC tend to mimic this type of behavior. I always wondered why so many of the elders would come across as unapproachable, and over time, it became apparent that the whole authority structure is built off of things like that. It has nothing to do with who is qualified to be in a leadership position. It's all about who is best at acting more spiritual and superior to others.

[Trapped]

The whole quote harshes my mellow. I'm trying to see where there is one Biblical thing in this teaching that Nee says we "have to" and "must" do.

The focus on having authority is the wrong focus, entirely.

There is no thought where believers need to "set themselves apart" from other believers to be anything special.

What on earth does it mean to be separated in our emotion? This is not Biblical.

Why are eagles better than sparrows in the church?

God never says He calls us to be lonely in the church.

And on and on.

And yet Nee says this as if it's some spiritual truth that we all must fall in line with.

Balderdash.

Honestly, at this point, when I talk to other Christians who have heard of Lee and Nee, who themselves shy away from Lee but say they love Nee......I just tell them to be careful. I've seen the same pattern of unbiblical stuff wrapped up in good sounding stuff in Nee's teachings that I see in Lee, and I say run from it.

[Ohio]

Read Paul's message to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20.17-38.

Then compare Nee's statement to what Paul lived and shared.

[Cal]

Watchman Nee was a masochist. And like many masochists, he could not resist bringing others into his self-indulgent and self-gratifying suffering.

[Sons to Glory!]

Today's Watchman Wednesday (from "Authority & Submission"): In order for us to learn to be an authority, we must also learn to set ourselves apart from the brothers and sisters. We need to refrain from many things which we otherwise could do or say. We should be separated in our speech and in our emotion. We cannot be too loose or easy-going. Sparrows fly in company, but the eagles fly alone. If we can only fly low and not suffer the loneliness of flying high, we are not qualified to be an authority. In order to be an authority, we have to be restricted and must separate ourselves.

In our leadership training business we teach some of this to brand new, inexperienced front-line supervisors. That is, they were recently non-management and there does need to be a little distancing from those they supervise in order that they might be able to use authority effectively (some authority comes from position, but to use it effectively comes more through respect). However, too much separation is also not good - there needs to be a balance. But many young leaders have difficulty using authority, so this is the best way to get them going in their new position IMHO. And they quickly need to develop other skills like listening, empathy, developing others, etc. I don't know if any of that balance is conveyed in the larger context of this quote by Nee. However, I do remember this was one of those books I've heard that is not high on the recommended list . . . (I wonder if it came from when he was younger)

When I think of this in terms of the leading ones in my ekklesia, I don't see these "eagle" principles on display. That is, I work and interact side-by side with these brothers all that time, and never get the impression that they are "eagles" soaring apart and above me! (I think they actually love me and everyone else, and want to be around others!)

Originally Posted by Ohio

Read Paul's message to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20.17-38.

Then compare Nee's statement to what Paul lived and shared.

Good verses and a great example of Servant Leadership (aka Christ)!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The whole quote harshes my mellow. I'm trying to see where there is one Biblical thing in this teaching that Nee says we "have to" and "must" do.

Honestly, at this point, when I talk to other Christians who have heard of Lee and Nee, who themselves shy away from Lee but say they love Nee......I just tell them to be careful. I've seen the same pattern of unbiblical stuff wrapped up in good sounding stuff in Nee's teachings that I see in Lee, and I say run from it.

Lee attracted attention in the US after many read Nee's The Normal Christian Church Life. I heard many testimonies of this back in the day.

History shows us that neither Nee nor Lee ever followed this book, the so-called "Blueprint" for a healthy, recovered, NT church. That's why I concluded the whole program was a farce.

[Trapped]

Pretty sick of you baiting me with Wednesday quotes I can't help but respond to, UntoHim!!!

Watchman Nee's quote for today:

When you come close to Christians who are near to God, they make you feel God. They do not make you sense their tenderness and humility; rather, they make you feel God. When I began to work, I decided, at whatever cost, to obey the will of God. I thought I was obeying the will of God. However, whenever I went to see Miss Barber, after talking and reading a few verses from the Bible with her, I was aware that I was still lacking. Every time I saw her, I always felt something special—God was there. When you came close to her, you felt God. She had light. She was controlled by the light of God; therefore, when you came close to her, her light condemned your sin.

I think the primary bone I'm choking on is the thought that Ms. Barber's light condemned Nee's sin.

I know Christians are to be salt and light, so I don't think it's the "light" part that gets me. I think what gets me is the "condemned". If you as a Christian feel condemned being around another Christian......is that a healthy situation? Even Jesus, when facing verified sinners, didn't condemn. The ones Jesus condemned were the religious hypocrites. If Nee or Barber were in Christ Jesus, there should be no condemnation.

I dunno.....I kind of just get the sense Nee flaps his lips sometimes and doesn't exactly know what he's talking about.

[Boxjobox]

The administrator posted this quote from W Nee:
A standard of living that is according to God can only be lived out by God. This is true because God is higher than we are. But this would be true even if God were lower than us; there must be the same kind of life in order to have the same kind of living. Only a bird can live a bird's life, and only a beast can live a beast's life. Therefore, only God can live God's life. Since Christ is God, only He can live out God's life. Christ has made it; He is perfect. Throughout history, only one person made it—Christ..

This brought back memories such as: W Nee knew all things about God, Christ, the Church and whatever he said was accurate and the perfect understanding of scripture. W Nee had the highest vision and we should conform our thinking to whatever he said. W, Lee followed W. Nee and stood on his shoulders, so to get the complete, highest revelation we must follow W Lee. I don’t really need to think through scripture by myself, just follow the synthesized words of Nee and Lee and perfection will come. If I don’t agree with something W Nee wrote or don’t want to follow something W Lee says, I have a problem with God, Christ and the Church. It is God’s will that I follow these men and die to my self and my opinions. It is my duty to purchase all material produced by these two men of God, and thoroughly assimilate their words as my own. I could go on and on, but I think this suffices in conveying my LC experience.

Now, when I read this Nee quote, I look at it as disjointed statements that do not connect, do not assist me in considering my Christian life, draw inaccurate conclusions, present a different gospel, produce a disillusioned following, are something to run away from, and make me appreciate that one day the light dawned on me to get out of that dysfunctional system of error.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

Now, when I read this Nee quote, I look at it as disjointed statements that do not connect, do not assist me in considering my Christian life, draw inaccurate conclusions, present a different gospel, produce a disillusioned following, are something to run away from, and make me appreciate that one day the light dawned on me to get out of that dysfunctional system of error.

Yeah, I also wanted to say a few things about the quote but didn't have a lot of time, but you bringing it up spurred me on. For me the issue is......the Bible doesn't say "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.....and that Son 'made it'."

Christ's coming, while an example for us to be sure, is to save us. He's the Savior, the Messiah. I may be mistaken but the point of His "making it" is not that He made it, but that He is sinless and thus qualified to substitute for us all.

Also he switches between a "standard of living" and just "living animal X's life". It doesn't make sense. Goodness gracious.

It also bugs me that Nee makes an absolute type statement at the outset "can ONLY be lived out by God....because He is higher than us" and then immediately....what a shocker.....contradicts and undoes his still-warm claim by saying it's true even if He was lower.

Okay, so what's the big revelation then, besides that Nee likes to hear his own lips flap?

Yeah, I'm so glad to get out of the Nee/Lee formaldehyde.

[Sons to Glory!]

From todays Witness Wednesday's main page quote (from WL 1975)

When you are about to lose your temper, immediately you should call, “O Lord Jesus! I am about to lose my temper. Please come and lose Your temper!” You have to invite the Lord Jesus to lose your temper for you. Sisters often give their husbands a long face. However, from now on, whenever you are about to have a long face, right away you should call, “O Lord! O Lord Jesus!”

What's wrong with this?

[UntoHim]

Who said there's anything wrong with it? Just because it's put up on the forum doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with it. It's put there to foster discussion.

That being said...Lee's quip "You have to invite the Lord Jesus to lose your temper for you" is as nonsensical as it is unbiblical. I think the Lord Jesus might have some more important things to do than to lose our temper for us. We have the Holy Spirit living within us. We have the Scriptures at our fingertips. These are the things God has provided - the Spirit within and the Word without - these are the "remedies" for those of us with a temper problem. My 45+ years of experience and observation have confirmed for me that simply repeating "Oh Lord Jesus, please come and lose your temper for me", which goes right along with Witness Lee's "get out of your mind" teaching, will bypass the Holy Spirit's speaking within, and ultimately ignores the Scriptures without. The result is that we do not grow in knowledge or grace.

Others may have a totally different view. No problem! Let's discuss.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Who said there's anything wrong with it? Just because it's put up on the forum doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with it. It's put there to foster discussion.

That being said...Lee's quip "You have to invite the Lord Jesus to lose your temper for you" is as nonsensical as it is unbiblical. I think the Lord Jesus might have some more important things to do than to lose our temper for us. We have the Holy Spirit living within us. We have the Scriptures at our fingertips. These are the things God has provided - the Spirit within and the Word without - these are the "remedies" for those of us with a temper problem. My 45+ years of experience and observation have confirmed for me that simply repeating "Oh Lord Jesus, please come and lose your temper for me", which goes right along with Witness Lee's "get out of your mind" teaching, will bypass the Holy Spirit's speaking within, and ultimately ignores the Scriptures without. The result is that we do not grow in knowledge or grace.

Others may have a totally different view. No problem! Let's discuss.
-

Yeah, I also thought this phrase a little off - perhaps "awkward" is the right word. But I get the point. If the Lord lives in us (and He does), then inviting Him to participate in what we're doing is proper I think. In fact, I do it all the time. He is not in us just to be idle, but we still have to invite Him to participate in various things in our lives, right? That is, He still won't violate our free will. (though one could argue that according to Phil 2:13 that He is operating in us to help us be willing . . .)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

From todays Witness Wednesday's main page quote (from WL 1975) What's wrong with this?

WL: When you are about to lose your temper, immediately you should call, “O Lord Jesus! I am about to lose my temper. Please come and lose Your temper!” You have to invite the Lord Jesus to lose your temper for you. Sisters often give their husbands a long face. However, from now on, whenever you are about to have a long face, right away you should call, “O Lord! O Lord Jesus!” -- Living with the Lord, LSM August 1975, p.7

In retrospect, I have always wished that Witness Lee would have called "O Lord Jesus" when he learned of his sons' profligate behaviors with sisters in LSM's offices. Perhaps then he would have acted in the interest of righteousness, rather than in his own self-interest, placing his own family above that of the family of God.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

From todays Witness Wednesday's main page quote (from WL 1975)

What's wrong with this?

For starters, what's wrong with it for me is the complete lack of acknowledgement that temper and long face are sometimes completely justified. WL puts the condemnation on any and all emotion while neglecting to mention that the wife, for example, may have a "long face" because their husband regularly puts "the brothers" above her and her needs and their kids needs and spending time with the family, and yet it's just "that long face you often give" which must go. At it's core it's just another denial of mind/will/emotion and genuine human needs. There's no humanity or human nuance to it. Anything human or legitimate must go.

[Trapped]

Today's quote from Nee:

There is no lover of the Lord who does not cry. We should ache for sinners to the point of weeping for them. We should weep because God’s glory is challenged, and we should weep in anguish that the enemy is not yet bound….All those whose hearts are in the Lord’s work surely weep. Jeremiah was a prophet who was greatly used by the Lord. He was such because of his tears. He was anxious and felt responsible for God’s children, and he wept for them day and night.

THIS IS A HORRIBL----- oh wait. No, it's fine. I don't really have a problem with this one.

Aside from the "we should" making you feel bad if you just don't happen to be a weepy person.....I'm glad to read one quote that I don't have to get frustrated about.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Today's quote from Nee:

There is no lover of the Lord who does not cry. We should ache for sinners to the point of weeping for them. We should weep because God’s glory is challenged, and we should weep in anguish that the enemy is not yet bound….All those whose hearts are in the Lord’s work surely weep. Jeremiah was a prophet who was greatly used by the Lord. He was such because of his tears. He was anxious and felt responsible for God’s children, and he wept for them day and night.

THIS IS A HORRIBL----- oh wait. No, it's fine. I don't really have a problem with this one.

Aside from the "we should" making you feel bad if you just don't happen to be a weepy person.....I'm glad to read one quote that I don't have to get frustrated about.

Yes, we should weep, but there's no condemnation because of what He did - and He knows our weakness because of the flesh numbing us to the urgency of a dying world. (and as a brother I know likes to say, "Don't 'should' all over each other.")

[Nell]

"Some might consider that they sacrifice too much time to come to the meetings. This thought is quite deceiving and quite misleading. We have to stand on the trustworthy word in God’s Holy Scripture. We have to trust in His promise, and we have to obey His commandment to come to the meeting. If you come to the meeting you are keeping His predestination, and the destiny of blessing will come to you.

It will come not only to you, one generation, but perhaps even to the third generation, or generation after generation.

Both you and your children will be under God’s blessing".

---Witness Lee

Wow. Just wow.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nell

Wow. Just wow.

If you neglect the children God blessed you with, God will bless you! Makes total sense!

[UntoHim]

The Local Church of Witness Lee is now onto the 2nd and 3rd generation here in America. Has Lee's prophesy come true?

"When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him."
Deuteronomy 18:22

How man times did Witness Lee "speak presumptuously?" A shorter list may be recalling how many times that he didn't speak presumptuously. And to think, thousands upon thousands were "afraid of him" for 50+ years. May God have mercy on us all.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

God’s eternal purpose is fulfilled by the house and the city. In the house God is a Father, and in the city God is a King. Both the house and the city are the church, or we may say, the local churches. A local church, in one sense, must be the house of God, and in another sense it must also be the city of God.

Witness Lee
Christ and the Church Revealed and Typified in the Psalms p198

The first part of this quote by WL was good. It got into trouble when he brought "local church" into it, because that phrase has the taint of elitism as used by him. Nothing wrong with saying a local ekklesia is a nearby expression of God's eternal purpose, but as used by WL and the LC now, it is a point of setting themselves apart from other Christians. In effect it is saying, "We've seen something more/better than others concerning the practical expression of the body of Christ. And therefore if you do meet with us, you are not really in His purpose."

[Trapped]

Today's quote by Lee:

Since Christ is everything, there is no need for us to decide to do anything or to be anything. Instead, we should simply turn to the Lord and say, “Lord, thank You. You are my life and my everything. You are the real God and the real man. When I need love, You are love. When I need humility, You, Lord, are humility. Whatever I need, You are.

I think this is one that sounds good, and in one sense I don't disagree with it. Christ is all and in all, and nothing good dwells in us, and we can't do anything without Him sustaining us.

But on the other hand, I feel like this kind of quote makes it seem a little too much like it's not on us to do or be anything. But if it isn't on us to do or be anything, then God has no foundation for His judgment of any of us. We are told to obey His commands. If the thought is that "only He can do it" then, when God judges us and finds us not loving enough, etc....then we can just point to Christ and say "He didn't do that in me enough!" Well.....that doesn't work, does it.

I guess my takeaway is that often when Lee needed to be balanced, he wasn't. And when he needed to be straightforward, he was balanced and it took away from what needed to be said.

[countmeworthy]

Watchman Nee is quoted in saying:

In Christ everything individualistic is ruled out. If we want to know the body life, we need deliverance not only from our sinful life and our natural life, but also from our individualist life. All individual life must go because nothing that is individualistic can reach God’s goal.

Can someone explain to me the purpose for this quote? Does anyone actually believe this absurd garbage? Am I missing something? And Where in the scriptures does it say we ought to know the ‘body life’? Everything I read in the scriptures is a road map to know the LORD!

Even the Father, Son and Holy Spirit Who are ONE are different from One another. As biblical proof, Who shed His Precious Blood so that we could enter into the Presence of God, the Holy of Holies. Who was crucified on the cross, died and resurrected? Was it the Father? Was it the Holy Spirit?

Nope it was the Son, the WORD Who was in the Beginning. He was with God and He was/is GOD. He became flesh and dwelt among us. HE was given a Name, a Name above all names. We all know His Name: Jesus Christ. It is written that every knee will bow and every tongue confess JESUS CHRIST is King of kings and LORD of lords.

With all due reverential respect to the Father and the Holy Spirit, the scriptures do say it is Jesus, the resurrected Savior to Whom every knee will bow and every tongue confess, not the Father, not the Holy Spirit ALTHOUGH in bowing our knees and confessing Jesus is KING and LORD, we are acknowledging the Father and the Holy Spirit too, for all Three are ONE.

All this which is no new revelation to any of us, or even if it is, totally deflects Nee’s mystical, irrational, obscure idealism bordering on thought Totalitarianism and cult oneness at best.

Née wants to sound so profound in his “deep” but false theory. It’s a proven failure! There is nothing biblical about his statements.

But I can now understand why back in the 70s, the men wore black skinny ties, white shirts, black pants. Occasionally some in their twenties wore jeans. But not often. Most of the women wore frumpy clothes. Everyone dressed alike. We tried to sound the same in meetings. Subconsciously we were trying to shed our individualistic lives, a la Nee’s goal. (Not God’s goal!)

I suppose the mostly pathetic outward appearance was trying to making a statement that we were not conforming to this world. YET our stinking thinking is what needed renewing!! Still does. (btw, since I am pretty much a homebody, I am no Glammy myself! )

In any case, God created us to look different from each other, with different personalities. But His ultimate goal is for us to be Glorified that we would be one with Him, that we would be the Bride of Christ.

P.S. I appreciate the scripture postings on the menu side. Good meditation food!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Even the Father, Son and Holy Spirit Who are ONE are different from One another....But I can now understand why back in the 70s, the men wore black skinny ties, white shirts, black pants. Occasionally some in their twenties wore jeans. But not often. Most of the women wore frumpy clothes. Everyone dressed alike. We tried to sound the same in meetings. Subconsciously we were trying to shed our individualistic lives, a la Nee’s goal. (Not God’s goal!) In any case, God created us to look different from each other, with different personalities. But His ultimate goal is for us to be Glorified that we would be one with Him, that we would be the Bride of Christ.

I totally agree that this "knowing the Body life" is not in scripture and I think it is ripe for dangerous misuse.

In comparing the Body of Christ to the human body, Paul so painfully clearly says there are distinctions of members, there are many members, there is not just one member (one giant member or one small one repeated over and over). The lack of distinction that Nee and Lee try to beat people up over the head to attain to produces a dead body in real life. Ours ears are totally different from our eyes from our hands from our collarbone from our toes....and thank God that's the case. Different in form, function, appearance, interaction with other members. That's how He made our bodies, and that how He composed the Body too.

[Awoken]

Absolutely. And -

Ephesians 3
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,

Manifold
adjectiveFORMAL • LITERARY
adjective: manifold
many and various.
"the implications of this decision were manifold"
Similar:
many
numerous
multiple
multifarious
multitudinous
multiplex
legion
diverse
various
several
varied
different
miscellaneous
assorted
sundry
copious
abundant
myriad
divers
having many different forms or elements.

Does not sound at all like the "oneness" (read: SAMENESS) that is taught inside the "Recovery" and was a product of Lee/Nee's improper use of Scripture.

It should be obvious just looking at the way God created nature that He wants to express Himself in a rich, abundant way and that one man-made view is not adequate for that. Nature is incredibly rich and diverse. The "church life" aims to create the opposite of that, although of course even in the LR there are pockets of godly diversity in opposition to the crooked theology, which pockets blessed those of us who were stuck in the system and did indeed help us to know more of God, in spite of our errors.

[Trapped]

In the summer of 1948 we had a conference in Shanghai for Brother Nee to resume his ministry. He had been away from his ministry for six years. One evening an older sister, who was bold, eloquent, and very outspoken, offered a prayer in the meeting. She offered a prayer that was very spiritual in wording, but her offering was fully in the flesh. This older sister was Brother Nee’s mother. He told her that her prayer in the meeting was altogether in the flesh, and he asked her not to do this anymore in any meeting.

How can anyone read this kind of stuff in the ministry and be DRAWN TO IT!?!

Hopefully Lee just left out the next part where Nee's mother took him by the ear and told that arrogant, impertinent mouther-offer to go to his room and stay there.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

...

How can anyone read this kind of stuff in the ministry and be DRAWN TO IT!?!

Hopefully Lee just left out the next part where Nee's mother took him by the ear and told that arrogant, impertinent mouther-offer to go to his room and stay there.

My thoughts exactly.

Nell

[UntoHim]

Here is a more complete version of this quote. And as usual, when put in it's larger context, it is even more horrific and egregious than the shorter version!

In the summer of 1948, we had a conference in Shanghai for Brother Nee to resume his ministry. He had been away from his ministry for six years. One evening an older sister, who was bold, eloquent, and very outspoken, offered a prayer in the meeting. She offered a prayer which was very spiritual in wording, but her offering was fully in the flesh. This older sister was Brother Nee’s mother. We did not do anything in the meeting. After the meetings, those of us who were caring for the conference would go to another room for refreshments and further fellowship. When we came together after that particular meeting, Brother Nee asked me to write a note to that older sister. I surely knew who that older sister was. I asked him to dictate the letter, and I would write what he wanted to say. He said something very strong. He told her that her prayer in the meeting was altogether in the flesh, and he asked her not to do this anymore in any meeting. He and I and an elderly sister signed this note. We all had the peace that we did the proper thing.

The next evening we were waiting to have dinner together; afterward, we would go to the meeting hall, which was across the street. All of a sudden, we heard someone knocking on the door. The sister who was serving the dinner went to open the door. That older sister, to whom we wrote the note, was at the door. She said to the sister, “To wash people’s feet is love, but the water was too hot! It burns.” Then she went away. This shows that to be a good elder in the church is not easy.
The Intrinsic View of the Body of Christ Chpt 3

If I told my mother that she was "fully in the flesh", a certain part of my flesh would be so sore and red I wouldn't be walking for a few days.

Seriously, This bold man of God, Watchman Nee, was such a spineless little wimp that he had to send his little yes man flunky, Witness, over with a note tell his mother that he was more spiritual than her? If this is how the One Man with the One Ministry for the Age treats his mother then count me out!
-

[Nell]

"You have many things. You have a great deal of patience and humility. You are a very capable and nice person. You are loving, helpful, and forgiving. You are willing to do this and that. Humanly speaking, it is hard to find a Christian like you. But I must speak an honest word: You only have things. You have to realize that what is truly spiritual before the Lord are not things, but the Lord Jesus Christ. What you are, what you can do, or what you have does not matter; only Christ matters."
Christ is All Spiritual Matters and Things Chp 5 Sec 2 LSM

"...and don't you forget it. "

[UntoHim]

You have many things. You have a great deal of patience and humility. You are a very capable and nice person. You are loving, helpful, and forgiving. You are willing to do this and that. Humanly speaking, it is hard to find a Christian like you. But I must speak an honest word: You only have things. You have to realize that what is truly spiritual before the Lord are not things, but the Lord Jesus Christ. What you are, what you can do, or what you have does not matter; only Christ matters.
Watchman Nee

When the guru tells his followers that only Christ matters, what ends up happening is that only the guru matters. And this is why when one goes to a Local Church meeting in the USA you might find a bunch of American Caucasian brothers and sisters speaking, dressing and acting like an elderly Chinese man (or woman). On more than one occasion, when I brought a friend or relative to a Local Church meeting, they would be scratching their head and wondering why everyone spoke and prayed with the same intonation and accent. Frankly, it creeped most of them out. Of course when they asked me about all the weirdness, I would usually say "Only Christ matters!" or some such nonsense.

This quote of Nee's actually resembles more of a pseudo-pantheism than genuine, biblical, orthodox Christian teaching. To put a finer point on it - If Christ is the only thing that matters, then there is no meaning to our human life. If God only wanted Christ he would of created all the angels and heavenly beings to be exactly like Christ. Adam and Eve would have been exactly like Christ. There would be no need for the Holy Spirit to come and transform us into the likeness of the Son because we would already be the Son.

Lord Jesus, by your mercy and grace would you empty our hearts and minds of any false teaching. Let us learn from you, for you were gentle and lowly. Let us learn from you, for you came to do the will of your Father, and you did so until your work was finished on the cross. You are our example, our friend, our Lord and the author and finisher of our faith. May we take you as our example - although you were rich, for our sake you became poor. You came to serve and not to be served. Break our heart for what breaks yours. Cleanse and purify our hearts until our hearts are like yours. May we know you and the power of your resurrection.
-

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by WatchmanNee

You have many things. You have a great deal of patience and humility. You are a very capable and nice person. You are loving, helpful, and forgiving. You are willing to do this and that. Humanly speaking, it is hard to find a Christian like you. But I must speak an honest word: You only have things. You have to realize that what is truly spiritual before the Lord are not things, but the Lord Jesus Christ. What you are, what you can do, or what you have does not matter; only Christ matters.
Watchman Nee

It’s only appropriate to compare the above quote, to what actually the Bible would say regarding the matter.

2 Peter 1:2-8
King James Version
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I’m going to say that this guy has completely missed the mark on this one. His caricature of Jesus doesn’t even exist or real. I know that TLR likes to steal the “divine nature “ out of the whole text, but forgets to read on, and actually see how that divine nature is really expressed today!

[Zezima]

All fall short of the glory of God. You don’t fall less short than others from one sin over another. Paul is articulating why sexual immortality is considered a sin, because in the context of the Roman-Greco culture, it wasn’t. In fact, homosexuality wasn’t even considered an identity like today. Pedophilia was a part of life and normal. The view of sexual morality was totally different then. Nero the ruler of all rome castrated a male slave who was 13 or so, and married him.

When Lee makes a statement like that, it’s easy for his followers to create a tier of sins, resulting in self justification & legality. Oh I’m okay because I didn’t have homosexual relations, I just cuss out my wife. Well, all fall short of the glory.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

When Lee makes a statement like that, it’s easy for his followers to create a tier of sins, resulting in self justification & legality.

You are definitely right that Lee used "self justification and legality" to attack his critics, both from without and within, even developing heretical teachings like "covering the brothers" to protect himself and his family from any accountability.

But both the Law of God and the Law of the land makes a "tier of sins." For example, the 9th commandment does not say "Thou shalt not lie." Yes lying is bad, but bearing false witness against your neighbor is far worse. The 9th Command should be equivalent to perjury in court. Bearing false witness could imprison, or worse, a completely innocent person. Compare that to a much needed "white lie," like telling your wife she's the "most gorgeous girl on earth."

[UntoHim]

While Paul was certainly aware of the secular Greco-Roman culture of his day, it had nothing to do with what Paul considered a sin or not. Paul's morality was based in his Judaism - He was, after all, a "Pharisee of Pharisees". Paul's view of homosexuality was no doubt based upon the biblical account of Sodom and Gomorrah, something that happened centuries before the Greco-Roman empire ever existed.

In any event, my friend Zezima, you missed my point about homosexuality damaging the image of God. This is a separate issue from everyone falling short of the glory of God. Unfortunately, to get into the differences would take us off track and would require starting a whole new thread. Trust me on this.

While your point about man's pathetic self-justification (I’m okay because I didn’t have homosexual relaxations, I just cuss out my wife) is well taken, I'm afraid that you're really begging the question rather than addressing the question at hand. Just sayin....
-

[Zezima]

Fair enough, I digress. Apologies for misunderstanding. Without getting into the idea of sins being more significant than others, it is interesting that Lee focuses on one in particular.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But both the Law of God and the Law of the land makes a "tier of sins." For example, the 9th commandment does not say "Thou shalt not lie." Yes lying is bad, but bearing false witness against your neighbor is far worse. The 9th Command should be equivalent to perjury in court. Bearing false witness could imprison, or worse, a completely innocent person. Compare that to a much needed "white lie," like telling your wife she's the "most gorgeous girl on earth."

The consequences are different, but I’d argue that sin is sin. When you get focus on one, it sends the message that if you do this one then you’re worse than someone doing a different one. But, that maybe just my subjective reception of statements like the one Lee quoted.

[Zezima]

Your attire is also often unseemly. Some brothers dress like bums. When they stand up and speak, dressed like a bum, who will listen? I do not have the time today, but if I were to conduct the training myself, the first thing that I would do would be to change you thoroughly from head to toe. I am not asking you to buy good clothes. Rather, I want you to dress in a dignified, proper, tidy, and elegant way. You have to admit that if those who work in the bank dressed like you, they would be disqualified. You also have to agree that the church is higher than a bank. The work that we are doing today is much more valuable than the work that is done in a bank. However, the way you look today, you would not be hired if you were applying for a job at the bank.

- Vessels Useful to the Lord, Chapter 3, Section 4
- Witness Lee - Vessels Useful to the Lord LSM

[Zezima]

We do not have the slightest doubt about the divine inspiration of the Bible. On the contrary, we have proper understanding concerning the inspiration of the Scriptures. We believe that the entire Bible, every word in the Scripture, is God-breathed. Nevertheless, not every word in the Bible is the word of God. As we have seen, many words recorded in the Scriptures are the words of Satan, evil men, God's opposers, and even the nonsensical talk of godly men.

Life-Study of James, Chapter 14, Section 3 (Witness Lee)

We believe that the entire Bible is the Word of God, and every word of it is inspired.

Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 1) Vol. 03, The Christian (1), Chapter 2, Section 1 (Watchman Nee)