Awoken after 38 Years

[MrsFreedom]

Hello all! I see you have found my leaving letter to the LCs.

My husband and I are presently leaving the LCs in a public way. I was in for 38 years and he was in for 12 years. I left in heart in mid-April of this year and posted my public letter this month.

If you would like to read the letter to the LCs, it can be seen here: http://bit.ly/GregJoannaCasteelLetter

If you would like to view my public facebook post about it, it can be seen here: http://bit.ly/FBPostGregJoannaCasteelLetter

Please feel free to ask me any questions about my experiences while in. I feel a bit like a laboratory specimen in a jar for all to see.

For the record, I love the saints. I want them to meet however they best feel before the Lord. I’m not trying to get anyone to stop meeting with the local churches.

Having been trained in ethics as a Registered Dietitian and Registered Nurse, I believe in informed consent. Once I realized the many unethical practices of the local churches, I could no longer take part and feel an ethical duty to report what I have seen.

I would like to thank the owners of this forum for having this incredible repository of information and for all of the members that have contributed to the discussions. I lurked here for weeks reading through what you have to say. You helped me leave.

~J

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

Hello all! I see you have found my leaving letter to the LCs.

My husband and I are presently leaving the LCs in a public way. I was in for 38 years and he was in for 12 years. I left in heart in mid-April of this year and posted my public letter this month.

If you would like to read the letter to the LCs, it can be seen here: http://bit.ly/GregJoannaCasteelLetter

Welcome to the Forum! I was hoping you would join us.

Thank you so much for writing your story. Just want to encourage you and your husband to continually speaking of your journey. It was not until internet forums like this became available that the unrighteous corruption of WL and LSM became publicly known. I had been active in the LC's for decades, yet the stories from other "expelled" men of God -- whistle blowers if you will -- were never made known to us. Hence LSM could operate with impunity. Our Savior God has used the internet to expose those who have hurt His children.

What grieves me the most is how many young people, especially the 2nd generation, have given up their faith and love for Jesus because of the abuses they endured.

[RambleOn]

Thank you again for your courage in being so open about this. Based on the responses, it is clear that many LCers agree with you, but so many of us who come from that world are unwilling or unable to risk losing friends, family, livelihoods, and even personal identity, to say nothing of the kingdom reward, so this really is an invaluable service.

What I would be most interested in hearing is the response from those who disagree with your statement. Reading the Facebook comments, with a few minor exceptions, it is mostly those who already see the problems who are commenting openly. I have no doubt that you have been contacted in private by saints who feel you have done something wrong. Considering most people who leave don't do it so publicly, I suspect many would have no idea what the response or pressure looks like in the aftermath.

[aron]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

Thank you again for your courage in being so open about this. Based on the responses, it is clear that many LCers agree with you, but so many of us who come from that world are unwilling or unable to risk losing friends, family, livelihoods, and even personal identity, to say nothing of the kingdom reward, so this really is an invaluable service..

I agree. Few have had the wherewithal to openly challenge leadership practices which allowed so many to be hurt. In spite of decades of egregious abuses and unresolved systemic issues only a few have broken the silence: Jane Anderson, Don Rutledge, Steve Isitt, John Ingalls, John So, perhaps a half-dozen others.

I think particularly of Steve Isitt, who had no intention of separation from the only thing that had been his home for years. One day in a meeting, Brother Lee mentioned those who had left, that they should be found and their stories heard (I think the talk was on 'reconciliation').

Steve took the word on face value, went out and found those who had left, and got their stories. (This was before the internet, and LSM effectively owned the only printing press in town).

When he brought his findings to the responsible brothers, dutifully following the LC hierarchy, no one wanted to touch them. Surprise, surprise. He was told to drop it, and when he kept speaking the stories and what they represented he was marginalised and then expelled. (And he's sought reconciliation with them ever since, to his credit.)

All of this is to say that I agree with the quote above, that when folks step forward and speak up, it's an invaluable service. High-demand, tightly-controlled goups thrive in silence.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

What I would be most interested in hearing is the response from those who disagree with your statement. Reading the Facebook comments, with a few minor exceptions, it is mostly those who already see the problems who are commenting openly. I have no doubt that you have been contacted in private by saints who feel you have done something wrong. Considering most people who leave don't do it so publicly, I suspect many would have no idea what the response or pressure looks like in the aftermath.

I have to say, responses from LSM/DCP/saints who disagree are what I am interested in too.

[UntoHim]

I would'nt hold your breath....you'll be passing out long before any of the boys in Anaheim lower themselves to answer any questions around this place
-

[Peter Debelak]

Thanks for sharing, Joanna. You'll find a lot of rich experience and wisdom on these pages. These folks can be rough around the edges (I'm looking at you Ohio and Unto ) but have huge hearts, rigorous faith, and troves of understanding about the history of the LC.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Thanks for sharing, Joanna. You'll find a lot of rich experience and wisdom on these pages. These folks can be rough around the edges (I'm looking at you Ohio and Unto ) but have huge hearts,

Thanks Pete, now I can add an enlarged heart to my various health challenges! Nice to hear from you bro, don't make yourself so scarce my man!

Actually, Joanna, as you may or may not know, Peter is actually a trailblazer on the intrepid road that you and your husband have started out on. If I were you I would lean in and press on him for his rich experience and wisdom. He was raised in the Local Church like you, and his parents were very active and respected in their locality and region. Peter has literally "been there done that". If I were you I would PM him here on the forum, or maybe hook up with him on Facebook messenger.

As I recently told another forum member, "it looks like God is on the move among the dear younger brothers and sisters in the Local Church". I can't help but remember our Lord's words "Ask and you shall receive". Well, I've been asking for many, many years now. Sometimes desperately. But God does everything in His own time. There is a season. I truly believe that this will be the season for so many young people to be freed from the false religion and the system of error which we know as the Local Church of Witness Lee. I especially hope and pray for the sisters who have suffered and endured so much abuse without a voice and without recourse.

Maranatha, brothers and sisters, MARANATHA!
-

[RambleOn]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I would'nt hold your breath....you'll be passing out long before any of the boys in Anaheim lower themselves to answer any questions around this place
-

I'm saying for MrsFreedom. She said to feel free to ask any questions about her experience. Many people have left "the recovery" over the years, and many have spoken of it. What is unique about her and her husband's case though is they've been extraordinarily transparent about this process, pretty much in real time. Most people, myself included, gradually stop going to meetings, and eventually just stop altogether without making a big public statement, so there's no response from anyone attempting to pull you back in. However, this couple chose the most public modern forum possible to tell the world not only that they're leaving, but the reasons why, and they showed their work. I am assuming that there will have been some responses via email or other private methods. Or if not, that's interesting too. As she said, she's something like a public lab experiment right now. If pressure tactics are applied to intimidate or manipulate her into changing her stance or retracting things, that's something of a confirmation of what many have been saying for decades. If none of that happens, it means something else (not sure what precisely).

On the fb thread, she provided the text of an email she received from one of the full timers in her locality, instructing her to cease contact with the students in the club. That's an interesting development. I think it would be instructive for anyone who has an interest in the LC movement to see how they respond to this very public challenge. In my opinion their best move is to ignore this entirely. Trying to silence her risks causing a Streisand Effect. If they were, for example, to release a big formal open letter in response, it would a) draw attention to the original open letter and b) legitimize it in the eyes of many saints who would otherwise ignore it or chalk it up to [insert character assassination].

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

Trying to silence her risks causing a Streisand Effect. If they were, for example, to release a big formal open letter in response, it would a) draw attention to the original open letter and b) legitimize it in the eyes of many saints who would otherwise ignore it or chalk it up to [insert character assassination].

The "Streisand effect". That's exactly what happened with lawsuits in the early 80's. Brothers warn the saints not to read such and such book. In fact brothers and sisters would do the opposite. Go to the book store and see what's being said. Same could have been said currently about "lawless users of the internet". I say think for yourself and research for yourself. That's probably what brought many of us here.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I would'nt hold your breath....you'll be passing out long before any of the boys in Anaheim lower themselves to answer any questions around this place
-

Okay, understood, and agreed. What I meant was any responses to her from any saints who disagree with her (including potential but unlikely contact from someone at LSM or DCP). Obviously so far most of any disagreement expressed has only occurred through private contact with her directly or among individual conversations with saints talking among themselves.

[MrsFreedom]

I am receiving a flood of positive responses from saints both in and out of the LCs.

Since you specifically asked about the negative responses, here are some that I have received. Some of these have been directly messaged/texted/e-mailed to me. Some were cryptically worded in my FB newsfeed.

“Please just walk away.”

“Just be a gentleman and walk away.”

“You are a disturbed person.”

“You are deceived.”

“You are unchristian.”

“Honor your father and mother.”

“If you won’t honor your parents you won’t honor the Lord Jesus.”

“Keep us all looking away from the chaos into Your loving, wonderful face!”

“We are standing with You to keep building Your church that the gates of hell will never prevail against."

“If you have a problem with a group of people or an individual person, the best thing is to give them respect, just not say anything negative about them, and just cut off ties. To take verbal shots at people as you cut off ties with them is ugly and especially if you’re a Christian has no place.”

“May the Lord have mercy on us all and bring our use of social media into resurrection life. Satan is the liar, the killer, and destroyer. In Jesus, he has nothing, no hope, and no way.”

“Satan wants to distract us and keep us in turmoil, but I am here to say “Satan not today” I am looking away unto my Lord.”

“What are you looking at right now? Part of the enemy’s strategy is to lure you, even to compel you to look at some negative things in your environment or in your being or in your history…We need to say to the enemy, “Enemy shut up! I am going to look away to Jesus. I will not look at other or the failure of the condition of the church or my weakness or the enemy or Nephilim. I will look away unto Jesus. My eyes are on Him.”

“Notice the Word does not say that if you’re seemingly not heard to write a scathing letter making all kinds of accusations while keeping your own misdeeds hidden.”

“Do not be disappointed by the weakness of the local churches. I do not believe in the seemingly disappointing condition in the world or in the churches.”

“My heart is aching now on so many levels, and yet rejoicing that He as the worthy Lion Lamb is on the throne and has defeated the deceiver of this great darkness.”

“I was considering today about the spirit of anti-Christ being here. So true. Thankfully we have our victorious Captain that will defeat him with just one word. We will surely be rejoicing beyond measure when we throw him into the lake of fire. Also will be so happy when Babylon the great is fallen.”

“You cannot stop the birds from flying over your head, but you can stop them from making a nest in your hair.”

From a full-timer in my locality: “Hi Jo, In light of recent events, I understand that you and Greg are quite upset. For the most part, I have been content simply to observe as everything transpires, however, today I have received multiple complaints from our students that you have been contacting them unsolicited. I'm messaging you now to ask you to please stop as this falls under Facebook harassment. Thank you.” [I publicly posted this response and mine on the main FB post: http://bit.ly/FBPostGregJoannaCasteelLetter]

“I love you all, but I fully disagree!! I read Jo’s post and I know for fact that many incidents that she mentions are exactly the opposite. The claimed victims are the offenders. Call me if you want. But no real loving believer would slander anyone publicly or even privately. I choose to leave it to the Lord.” [This was also on the main FB public post and I responded there]

~J

[Gubei]

I hope you set up a good example of how to reveal the truth surrounding the LCs publicly so that I can follow it in my country.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

I hope you set up a good example of how to reveal the truth surrounding the LCs publicly so that I can follow it in my country.

Amen Lord! Free our Father's children in South Korea! "As in heaven, so on earth"... amen Lord Jesus! The Word says, the children of the kingdom are free indeed... ~Matt 17:26

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

“If you have a problem with a group of people or an individual person, the best thing is to give them respect, just not say anything negative about them, and just cut off ties. To take verbal shots at people as you cut off ties with them is ugly and especially if you’re a Christian has no place.”

“May the Lord have mercy on us all and bring our use of social media into resurrection life. Satan is the liar, the killer, and destroyer. In Jesus, he has nothing, no hope, and no way.”

“Satan wants to distract us and keep us in turmoil, but I am here to say “Satan not today” I am looking away unto my Lord.”

“What are you looking at right now? Part of the enemy’s strategy is to lure you, even to compel you to look at some negative things in your environment or in your being or in your history…We need to say to the enemy, “Enemy shut up! I am going to look away to Jesus. I will not look at other or the failure of the condition of the church or my weakness or the enemy or Nephilim. I will look away unto Jesus. My eyes are on Him.”

“Notice the Word does not say that if you’re seemingly not heard to write a scathing letter making all kinds of accusations while keeping your own misdeeds hidden.”

“Do not be disappointed by the weakness of the local churches. I do not believe in the seemingly disappointing condition in the world or in the churches.”.”

I’ve long found it fascinating that a group that so easily slides into negative speaking towards others could also be so hypersensitive to any perception of negativity toward themselves. In any given meeting one hears either veiled or blunt statements about “Christianity” or “Babylon”, and we see it formalized in publications like “Affirmation and Critique”, but how dare anyone 'critique' the LC, or the LSM! Suddenly, "You are being negative"!

All one can do is point out the glaring disconnect and hope that the cognitive dissociation is seen. Because the illogic is there, and it’s glaring, once noticed. In fact, once seen it’s very hard to unsee! Which is a hopeful thing, probably.

But in the meantime, one of the clear symptoms of untrammeled subjectivity is the characterization of one’s own activity as “correction” or “rebuke” or “adjustment”, whereas if any of it seems to come back it’s called “attack” or “accusation” or “slander”.

“So subjective is my Christ in me…”; yes, so subjective that it has little bearing on objective reality, if any. It’s the me-first subjectivity of a small child in a sandbox, writ large across the captive assembly.

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

Once I realized the many unethical practices of the local churches, I could no longer take part and feel an ethical duty to report what I have seen.

As a long-time participant on this forum, what I've seen are similar traits between the DYL spin-off in Brasil which the LSM has quarantined, the cultic spin-offs they've disowned in the mainland (after WL publicly claimed them from the podium in the '90s) and the LSM itself: paranoia, secrecy, code words, deceptive recruiting practices, isolationism, a one-way system of publicly losing face (the underlings always, the Deputy God never), and periodic "storms" and "rebellions" when the high-demand leadership becomes too onerous. Additionally I see the Bible getting prominently waved when it's useful (which is often) and ignored or dismissed when the "oracle" can't use it (also often).

On the positive side, what I've learned is that the gospel is so simple: either God raised Jesus from the dead and gave him glory, or not. If it is in fact so, then the other stuff in scripture has value inasmuch as it looks to the death and resurrection of the Messiah - it either looks ahead to this singularity (Psa 22) or it finds its meaning looking back (e.g., Rev 5:1-14). If there's no resurrection then the other stuff (parsing the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, the 'nature' of Christ, the 1000-year kingdom/rapture/tribulation, the church[es]) don't really matter much, do they?

It all boils down to one thing: the resurrection of Jesus from the dead on the third day. This was the Galilean fisherman Peter's message on Pentecost, a message repeated nearly verbatim by the Gamaliel-trained Pharisee Paul a few chapters later in the same book. Everything looks to this one moment. Either our universe finds its meaning in this one event or it doesn't. Once you get the stunning clarity of this claim, and position yourself yourself appropriately (I believe/don't believe) then the rest tends to sort itself out pretty quickly... what matters and what doesn't.

As Forrest Gump said, "And that's all I have to say about that".

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by aron

Amen Lord! Free our Father's children in South Korea! "As in heaven, so on earth"... amen Lord Jesus! The Word says, the children of the kingdom are free indeed... ~Matt 17:26

Thanks, Aron.

This could be a bit off-topic from the MrsFreedom's narrative, but I'd like to float two points in this particular point of time when US-Sino trade war is going.

1. In a nutshell, some Chinese brothers are (knowingly or unknowingly) so proud of those two Chinese christian leaders (WN, WL) who have taken lead in the so called Lord's Recovery that they even called WL their "father." They seems to try to maintain Chinese dominance even in the church life.

There have been "air" of arrogance of Chinese brothers when they were supposed to co-work with other ethnic group saints, sometimes very noticeable. Unfortunately, I have to say an insidious ethnical discrimination (or elitism) has permeated LC's inner atmosphere like the debate between Hellenistic Jew and Hebraic Jew in Acts.

2. It was WN who failed before WL. I've read "My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church" by Lily Hsu, and understood why WN failed. I believe WL must have known those facts surrounding WN's failures, but WL didn't mention anything about those failures, meaning he himself was not balanced, not candid and had too much entanglements to start new.

The current leaders in the LC are trapped in a vicious cycle. The only escape would be frankly admitting their failures and shortcomings for turn-around, but instead they chose to tighten the inner control , just like the current CCP is doing to their innocent Chinese people.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

They seems to try to maintain Chinese dominance even in the church life. There's been an "air" of arrogance of Chinese brothers when they were supposed to co-work with other ethnic group saints, sometimes very noticeable. Unfortunately, I have to say an insidious ethnical discrimination (or elitism) has permeated LC's inner atmosphere like the debate between Hellenistic Jew and Hebraic Jew in Acts.

No small irony that 100 years later, a group birthed by nativist resentment to outside domination (think, Boxer Rebellion) subsequently imposed itself as an alien culture upon others. It cannot be overstressed that there's nothing wrong with Chinese culture per se, and in fact it has much to recommend it. But the church leadership that insists that there be "No culture" insinuates its own [Chinese] value systems and enables their dominance.

In my old "locality" the original church group has shrunk and the children are almost all gone - a few were captured by "the ministry" and are off serving somewhere, but most are through with the Christian religion in any form. The Sunday meeting is about 1/2 the size of the one I knew 30 years ago. But in the meantime a separate "Chinese-speaking meeting" has flourished. I suspect that in their eyes it's the Normal Christian Church Life, to use the title of a WN book. To Chinese it's as 'normal' as Anglican church practices were to Western missionaries in 19th-century China.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

I believe WL must have known those facts surrounding WN's failures, but WL didn't mention anything about those failures, meaning he himself was not balanced, not candid and had too much entanglements to start new.

The current leaders in the LC are trapped in a vicious cycle. The only escape would be frankly admitting their failures and shortcomings for turn-around, but instead they chose to tighten the inner control , just like the current CCP is doing to their innocent Chinese people.

Like Burger King, the LC can be called "Home of the Whopper" (yes I'm dating myself). One of the Big Lies in the LC was that in China, God found "virgin soil" for His "current move", free from the fallen-humanity-bred contaminations that plagued church-building efforts elsewhere. What a Whopper.

If you look at Peter in the NT, he's repeatedly failing, yet God still uses him. Jesus doesn't let him go. Why does one surmise from the NT that Christian leadership must be beyond error? Only with a culturally-derived lens (the Maximum Leader must never, ever lose face publicly) can one ignore the case of Peter. People, even Christian people, make mistakes, they get exposed, they learn, they repent, and they go on by God's grace. It's not the end of the world.

But WN and then WL were allowed to make mistakes again and again, and all the witnesses had to be purged, and everyone else had to pretend it never happened, and if you bring it up you're "leprous" and "poisonous"... how on earth can anyone grow, or change? How in heaven's name can anyone "become God" or even "become Godly" in such a make-believe world?

If you make a mistake, just repent. It's not such a big deal. You may have to relinquish your position as "Minister of the Age", but maybe, just maybe, God didn't want you to have such a position while on earth, anyway. You know, "He who's great in this age will be least in the kingdom of the heavens"... don't you want to be great in the kingdom of the heavens? So let go of your presumption of positional or dispositional infallibility. That's Jesus' forte, not ours. You and I are sinners. Redeemed and reborn, yes, but still fallible while in the flesh of sin. So stop with the make-believe.

[Cal]

Joanna,

They say "please just walk away."

When someone has a problem with them, they expect respect and decorum. When they have a problem with someone, they call them all kinds of demeaning names.

Like you said, you can't have it both ways.

And UntoHim, the Blendeds might not engage here, but they will repent someday. They will be sorrowful. It will happen, and perhaps sooner than you might think.

Like I said, the dam is cracking, and when dams break, things happen very quickly.

There is a phenomenon in finance and nature called the Minsky Moment. It is that point in some seemingly stable systems when they suddenly collapse or rearrange violently. Imagine for example you are carefully pouring sand onto a pile. The pile grows higher and higher, and is seemingly solid. But no matter how carefully you pour, at some point which you cannot quite predict, one side of the mound will collapse into an avalanche. One is never quite sure which final grain of sand will trigger the collapse. But it is inevitable. The only question is when.

My sense is the LR is nearing this point. If someone as devoted as Joanna can have the reaction she did, imagine how many others the Lord is preparing. Her resume reads like the Apostle Paul's! An LCer of LCers. Blameless. Absolute. But her purity of soul was not made for the LR, as Paul's was not for Judaism. It was made for God, as Paul's was. And God is jealous for his people. More and more will leave, and at some point a chain reaction will begin, and there will be no stopping it.

The Minsky Moment is near. A seismic shift is coming. Keep praying and watching.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

As Forrest Gump said, "And that's all I have to say about that."

There's always an addendum, ha-ha.

I brought up the simplicity of the gospel specifically as an antidote to the obfuscation of esoteric "mystical" verbiage and the subsequent need to hide it from "new ones" when recruiting. Peter's gospel was simple on Pentecost, and nothing has changed. Everything else looks to this.

The deception in LC recruiting is a dead giveaway to what this group is all about. Veiled, subtle, insistent control.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

There's always an addendum, ha-ha.

I brought up the simplicity of the gospel specifically as an antidote to the obfuscation of esoteric "mystical" verbiage and the subsequent need to hide it from "new ones" when recruiting. Peter's gospel was simple on Pentecost, and nothing has changed. Everything else looks to this.

The deception in LC recruiting is a dead giveaway to what this group is all about. Veiled, subtle, insistent control.

In Corinth Paul faced much of the same esoteric "mystical" verbiage which seems to possess these folks. When it comes to "who is of who," all simplicity of faith gets lost in the dense fog. Paul's guiding beacon was to know nothing, but Christ and Him crucified.