Do you think Christianity is degraded?

[ZNPaaneah]

On this forum Witness Lee's disparaging remarks concerning Christianity have been quoted and rebuked repeatedly. Therefore it is only fair and reasonable that those of us who have taken issue with Witness Lee on this point respond to this question. What say ye?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

On this forum Witness Lee's disparaging remarks concerning Christianity have been quoted and rebuked repeatedly. Therefore it is only fair and reasonable that those of us who have taken issue with Witness Lee on this point respond to this question. What say ye?

ZNPaaneah, to get to the heart of the matter, we should consider these questions:

What is Christianity?

Christianity is a religion comprising 20,000+ denominations.

Did God start Christianity? No, men did. Men start religions, God started His church. Good reference here is "Christ versus Religion - by Witness Lee".


What does degradation mean?

Degradation basically means not normal. Watchman Nee wrote what is a normal church in his normal church life books. In recent times, some have published books explaining how Christianity is essentially pagan ("Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola Author and George Barna").

A degraded system -referring mostly to the organized hierarchical church.
clergy/laity distinctions, cathedrals, idols etc.

Does a church have to build a cathedral and have a priest to be degraded? No - any church which has one church leader and no functioning members is essentially degraded. A degraded church could be a non-denominational house church.

Degradation means loss of function. If your body's arm stops working you could say the arm is degraded, it cannot function as an arm. The same with the body of Christ.

Degraded Christianity locked up the Bible for hundreds of years, and was released through Luther and others.

Degradation is caused by not accepting Christ's Headship.

Lee holds a view that the church become degraded from the second century.

Is it true?

History would say yes. The degraded system was in place for hundreds of years soon after Constantine made Christianity a state religion.

Is Christianity degraded today?
If we believe that Roman Catholicism at least, is part of Christianity, the answer is an obvious yes.

What does the Bible say?

Judaism is Satanic (Rev. 2:9-10. )
Catholicism is demonic (Rev. 2:24-28)
Protestantism is dead and Christless (Rev. 3:1-5, 20-21).

We cannot find a genuine church in any sort of "ism".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNPaaneah, to get to the heart of the matter, we should consider these questions:

What is Christianity?

Christianity is a religion comprising 20,000+ denominations.

Did God start Christianity? No, men did. Men start religions, God started His church. Good reference here is "Christ versus Religion - by Witness Lee".

Witness Lee defines religion as anything that we do for God apart from God. I reject this definition as not Biblical. It is very clear from the fellowship of the Apostles that this is not a valid definition.

So, no, I disagree with your assertion. Prove it from the fellowship of the Apostles. Witness Lee's books can be referenced by you all you wish, but the ultimate authority in my opinion, and Witness Lee's opinion, is the fellowship of the apostles.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What does degradation mean?

Degradation basically means not normal. Watchman Nee wrote what is a normal church in his normal church life books.

A degraded system -referring mostly to the organized hierarchical church.
clergy/laity distinctions, cathedrals etc.

Does a church have to build a cathedral and have a priest to be degraded? No - any church which has one church leader and no functioning members is essentially degraded.

Degradation means loss of function. If your body's arm stops working you could say the arm is degraded, it cannot function as an arm. The same with the body of Christ.

Degraded Christianity locked up the Bible for hundreds of years, and was released through Luther and others.

Lee holds a view that the church become degraded from the second century.

Is it true?

History would say yes. The degraded system was in place for hundreds of years soon after Constantine made Christianity a state religion.

Is Christianity degraded today?
If we include Roman Catholicism in Christianity, the answer is an obvious yes.

Once again, you can reference Watchman Nee books if you please, but I will only acknowledge the authority of the apostle's fellowship on this topic.

I find the reference to "hierarchical" and "organized" idiotic. The New Testament provides a lot of discussion on the organization of the church. The idea that "hierarchical" is equivalent to "degraded" is based on a very poor assumption that the term "nicolaitan" refers to a hierarchy that stifles the function of the members of the Body. That is a very poor and self serving example of biblical interpretation. No verse is of its own interpretation, particularly when you have an undefined term that you define a certain way because that is what you want it to mean. Even the term "the body of Christ" implies organization. Our body is highly organized. All life forms are organized. I consider Witness Lee's use of this to be very hypocritical. He condemns all Christian organizations as being "organized" hence degraded. Yet he himself was the head of a very big organization and he put his profligate son in charge of a Christian ministry even though he was well aware of how degraded he was. He condemned seminary and then set up his own seminary. His condemnation was merely self justification.

I also find the term "not normal" to be "not useful". The record in the New Testament is very clear, what we see in all forms of Christian meetings is in fact what has been accurately described with great detail in the New Testament. Therefore it is "typical", it is "expected", it is "anticipated", and it appears to be "necessary". Is it normal for a child to get measles or mumps? It is typical, it is common, and it may be necessary to develop immunity either by getting the childhood disease or by getting a vaccination. But the word "normal" may not apply. Therefore I feel this term is not helpful in understanding this issue.

What you refer to as "degraded Christianity" I see as something that Christians need to experience and overcome to grow into full maturity. You cannot overcome these things if you do not experience them, just as you cannot develop immunity to the mumps unless you experience it, either by being exposed to the disease or to a vaccine. In my understanding the reference to "false prophets", "heresies", "false teachers", all refer to these necessary diseases that we must overcome. Jezebel and Balaam are examples. The teaching of the Nicolaitans is an example. The Judaizers were an example. James is an example of someone who was exposed to this disease, developed immunity to it, overcame it, and then his ministry was a vaccination for the Body of Christ.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Witness Lee defines religion as anything that we do for God apart from God. I reject this definition as not Biblical. It is very clear from the fellowship of the Apostles that this is not a valid definition.

So, no, I disagree with your assertion. Prove it from the fellowship of the Apostles. Witness Lee's books can be referenced by you all you wish, but the ultimate authority in my opinion, and Witness Lee's opinion, is the fellowship of the apostles.



Once again, you can reference Watchman Nee books if you please, but I will only acknowledge the authority of the apostle's fellowship on this topic.

I find the reference to "hierarchical" and "organized" idiotic. The New Testament provides a lot of discussion on the organization of the church. The idea that "hierarchical" is equivalent to "degraded" is based on a very poor assumption that the term "nicolaitan" refers to a hierarchy that stifles the function of the members of the Body. That is a very poor and self serving example of biblical interpretation. No verse is of its own interpretation, particularly when you have an undefined term that you define a certain way because that is what you want it to mean. Even the term "the body of Christ" implies organization. Our body is highly organized. All life forms are organized. I consider Witness Lee's use of this to be very hypocritical. He condemns all Christian organizations as being "organized" hence degraded. Yet he himself was the head of a very big organization and he put his profligate son in charge of a Christian ministry even though he was well aware of how degraded he was. He condemned seminary and then set up his own seminary. His condemnation was merely self justification.

I also find the term "not normal" to be "not useful". The record in the New Testament is very clear, what we see in all forms of Christian meetings is in fact what has been accurately described with great detail in the New Testament. Therefore it is "typical", it is "expected", it is "anticipated", and it appears to be "necessary". Is it normal for a child to get measles or mumps? It is typical, it is common, and it may be necessary to develop immunity either by getting the childhood disease or by getting a vaccination. But the word "normal" may not apply. Therefore I feel this term is not helpful in understanding this issue.

What you refer to as "degraded Christianity" I see as something that Christians need to experience and overcome to grow into full maturity. You cannot overcome these things if you do not experience them, just as you cannot develop immunity to the mumps unless you experience it, either by being exposed to the disease or to a vaccine. In my understanding the reference to "false prophets", "heresies", "false teachers", all refer to these necessary diseases that we must overcome. Jezebel and Balaam are examples. The teaching of the Nicolaitans is an example. The Judaizers were an example. James is an example of someone who was exposed to this disease, developed immunity to it, overcame it, and then his ministry was a vaccination for the Body of Christ.

If you think we can do things for God without God, makes me wonder why God gave us the Holy Spirit, and spiritual gifts etc. And why Jesus said:

John 15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me.
"

Hierarchy is also mentioned in Matthew 23:9 and

Matthew 20:25 "But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them."

So the fellowship of the apostles, no, the words of Christ Himself, tells me that hierarchy is not normal.


I'm curious to know if you think the Reformation should have happened? Or perhaps Christians should have stayed in the Roman Catholic church and overcame it rather than separate from it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If you think we can do things for God without God, makes me wonder why God gave us the Holy Spirit, and spiritual gifts etc. And why Jesus said:

I don't think that and I didn't say that. I said that Witness Lee defines religion as meaning that, but it doesn't mean that. Read the New Testament, the term is defined in the New Testament and it does not mean that.

According to James "religion pure and undefiled with the God and Father is this, to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation".

Now as you point out, according to Jesus "apart from Me you can do nothing".

Therefore a logical person would put these two together to say that the New Testament defines religion as a "looking after orphans and widows in their tribulation by being joined to Jesus as the vine in obedience to the Lord's command to love your neighbor as yourself".

It is very alarming to me that Witness Lee felt it necessary to denigrate this term.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't think that and I didn't say that. I said that Witness Lee defines religion as meaning that, but it doesn't mean that. Read the New Testament, the term is defined in the New Testament and it does not mean that.

According to James "religion pure and undefiled with the God and Father is this, to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation".

Now as you point out, according to Jesus "apart from Me you can do nothing".

Therefore a logical person would put these two together to say that the New Testament defines religion as a "looking after orphans and widows in their tribulation by being joined to Jesus as the vine in obedience to the Lord's command to love your neighbor as yourself".

It is very alarming to me that Witness Lee felt it necessary to denigrate this term.

What you described in James there is true religion. Lee did not really denigrate this term "religion". In fact, if you read LIFE-STUDY OF JOHN MESSAGE NINETEEN, Lee says that Judaism is the only real, genuine and true religion. Many Protestants would not speak so kindly about Judaism. Lee says that religion is good, but it is not the living person of Christ. It is on the basis of religion not being able to give life, that Lee speaks against it. It goes something like this - religion is good, but life is better. If we have life, then religion is a negative thing.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hierarchy is also mentioned in Matthew 23:9 and

Matthew 20:25 "But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them."

So the fellowship of the apostles, no, the words of Christ Himself, tells me that hierarchy is not normal.

Yes, the New Testament talks about hierarchy that can be negative. You then conclude that it is not normal. But that is not supported by Matthew who also says "since they sit in Moses seat do all they say". Moses seat was set up by God. Since he was unable to care for the millions of people he set up a hierarchy. Try reading the Bible.

Peter also speaks of hierarchy:

5 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker,
2 feed the flock of God that [is] among you, overseeing not constrainedly, but willingly, neither for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind,
3 neither as exercising lordship over the heritages, but patterns becoming of the flock,
4 and at the manifestation of the chief Shepherd, ye shall receive the unfading crown of glory.

Elders are a form of hierarchy in a family.

Overseeing is contrasted with "lording it over". The proper function is to oversee, the distorted function is to "lord it over". A proper motive is out of a ready mind of one who is serving the Lord, an improper motive is for filthy lucre. An improper approach is to lord it over, a proper approach is to be a pattern to the flock.

But whether it is proper or improper, it is still organization and hierarchy.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, the New Testament talks about hierarchy that can be negative. You then conclude that it is not normal. But that is not supported by Matthew who also says "since they sit in Moses seat do all they say". Moses seat was set up by God. Since he was unable to care for the millions of people he set up a hierarchy. Try reading the Bible.

Peter also speaks of hierarchy:

5 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker,
2 feed the flock of God that [is] among you, overseeing not constrainedly, but willingly, neither for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind,
3 neither as exercising lordship over the heritages, but patterns becoming of the flock,
4 and at the manifestation of the chief Shepherd, ye shall receive the unfading crown of glory.

Elders are a form of hierarchy in a family.

Overseeing is contrasted with "lording it over". The proper function is to oversee, the distorted function is to "lord it over". A proper motive is out of a ready mind of one who is serving the Lord, an improper motive is for filthy lucre. An improper approach is to lord it over, a proper approach is to be a pattern to the flock.

But whether it is proper or improper, it is still organization and hierarchy.

Normal for the Jews perhaps, not normal for God's church. Jesus did not desire any sort of clergy-laity structure in the church, all were equal in importance and function. The historical fact is that there was no clergy class in the early church.

[countmeworthy]

I may end up ruffling a whole bunch of feathers here because many here on this forum are fellowshipping in a denominational church.

I am not going to criticize anyone who attends the 4 walled 'church'..especially given the LC/LSM experience.

That said.. I have come to understand and agree that what Nee & Lee and others before them and after them have said is TRUE. I HATE when people say ' so & so converted to CHRISTIANITY'! WE did not convert to a religion!! We saw the Light and turned our hearts and our lives over to GOD HIMSELF. HE IS NOT A RELIGION.. HE IS NOT A 'CHRISTIAN' RELIGION.

But the LC/LSM while saying the right things became an instrument of Satan himself by dividing and even destroying the lives of the followers of JESUS CHRIST.

After Lee emphasized the RCC, CHRISTIANITY AND RELIGION is degraded, he himself fell into Satan's trap. And the LC/LSM that disparaged the very things they exposed became one with religion. I think this happened because Lee became prideful.. and that became his downfall..

I just want you guys to know if you don't know this already, the true believers are beginning to leave the man made church, the clergy-laity system, the 'church' of the Nicolaitans that Jesus Himself hates IN DROVES. AND none of them have ever heard of Witness Lee or the LC/LSM.

I am hearing testimony after testimony of people saying 'The LORD told me to get out'. Many express themselves differently of course but that is basically what they are saying. AND they are also saying the walk is not easy because few if any understand them. Most that I know that are leaving the man made church is there is no real message..no gospel..the truth has been watered down. It is a good feel, prosperity community. No teaching.. it is becoming a one world religion. Many denominations are already returning to the RCC where they came out of.

Check out Kenneth Copeland and his conversation with the pope for starters.

I used to struggle on how to respond to people when they asked me 'what church do you attend?' Now.. I just tell them the LORD took me out of the man made church after I studied Revelation 2 & 3. I am not forsaking the assembling spoken of in Hebrews btw.

And if you guys remember.. I did attend a charismatic man-made church from 2005 - 2010/11. While I did learn some things and my faith did grow, it was just a temporary place I needed (I think I needed) to be. So my upbringing is: Catholic, LC, a taste of charismatic, WOF (word of faith), Pentecostalism and now F R E E D O M in Christ..

To those of you who are attending a 4 walled fellowship group, don't be throwing stones at me! If that is where God has you..that is where GOD HAS YOU.

All I know is He pulled me out and I am thankful.

Blessings to all.
Carol

[Evangelical]

Some, have taken issue with the local church's stance on denominations, saying we should build up and not tear down.

But the bible and common sense tells us that if there is an old building and we want to build a new one, we must tear the old one down first.

Jeremiah 1:10 says: See, today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant."

The churches role on the Earth today is not only to build and plant, but to uproot, tear down, destroy and overthrow.

Some may say, "you are speaking against fellow believers, the bible says to edify and love". The bible says that in reference to individuals but does it say to edify and love worldly institutions? Consider this - the Roman Catholic church - is this not the religious arm of the old Roman Empire? The Anglican church - is this not the religious arm of the old English Empire? How can God destroy the Roman Empire yet leave the Roman church intact?

To tear down various human empires is also to tear down their religious entities. Tearing down these two denominations alone will result in the majority of Christianity without a denomination which will bring a vast improvement.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Some, have taken issue with the local church's stance on denominations, saying we should build up and not tear down.

But the bible and common sense tells us that if there is an old building and we want to build a new one, we must tear the old one down first.

Jeremiah 1:10 says: See, today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant."

The churches role on the Earth today is not only to build and plant, but to uproot, tear down, destroy and overthrow.

Some may say, "you are speaking against fellow believers, the bible says to edify and love". The bible says that in reference to individuals but does it say to edify and love worldly institutions? Consider this - the Roman Catholic church - is this not the religious arm of the old Roman Empire? The Anglican church - is this not the religious arm of the old English Empire? How can God destroy the Roman Empire yet leave the Roman church intact?

To tear down various human empires is also to tear down their religious entities. Tearing down these two denominations alone will result in the majority of Christianity without a denomination which will bring a vast improvement.

What gives you the right to tear down what God had a part in building?

The church has no mandate today to "uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow." You have gone off the deep end.

How about you do us and the LC's a huge favor and tear down LSM. It is nothing but a worldly organization, an obscure denomination, a money-making enterprise scamming God's people, a retail business peddling God's word.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What gives you the right to tear down what God had a part in building?

The church has no mandate today to "uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow." You have gone off the deep end.

How about you do us and the LC's a huge favor and tear down LSM. It is nothing but a worldly organization, an obscure denomination, a money-making enterprise scamming God's people, a retail business peddling God's word.

God does not build anything other than "His church" (Matt 16:18). There is nothing in the bible that talks about God "having a part in building denominations" or churches (plural). All the other buildings are counterfeits, therefore I have the right to tear them down.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

God does not build anything other than "His church" (Matt 16:18). There is nothing in the bible that talks about God "having a part in building denominations" or churches (plural). All the other buildings are counterfeits, therefore I have the right to tear them down.

You are no different. You also are a denomination. Start with yourself. Tear your own church down. Judgment begins with the Recovery.

There is neither anything in the Bible about selling books, selling tennis rackets, selling motor homes, selling seats in trainings, etc. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged.

Are not all the denominations also ministries? Then by your own definition, they are not bound by your rules, just like you give LSM a free pass for all of its corruption.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You are no different. You also are a denomination. Start with yourself. Tear your own church down. Judgment begins with the Recovery.

There is neither anything in the Bible about selling books, selling tennis rackets, selling motor homes, selling seats in trainings, etc. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged.

Are not all the denominations also ministries? Then by your own definition, they are not bound by your rules, just like you give LSM a free pass for all of its corruption.

I agree that the denominations are ministries. That is why they often bear the name of their founder. I think the issue is denominations claiming to be churches. When that happens it creates a division. If the LSM claimed to be the true church then that would be an issue. But they have never claimed that. The local churches don't bear the name of their founder.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

The reason you can't find any real local church or its members is because it doesn't exist. It is just an idea, which was useful to separate the Chinese Christians from the Western yoke (the dreaded Denominations). But shortly after they all came crowding into Nee's Little Flock assembly, he "recovered" the Jerusalem Principle. Lo and behold, the churches weren't local at all, but part of a larger Body! And that Body, lo and behold, needed an extra-local apostle! How convenient! Nee knew just the man for the job. "Centralization" followed "locality" like a tail following a dog. They were part and parcel.

Locality never was real. It was merely an idea, a lever, an engine to bring people from someone else's delusion, into Nee's. Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

It doesn't exist because everyone is too busy building up their favorite denomination (including the Local Church, if you like).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It doesn't exist because everyone is too busy building up their favorite denomination.

I just love these generalizations.

One day you tell us that all Christians are lukewarm and passive Sunday-only sit-in-the-pew give-a-few-bucks members.

The next day you inform us that all Christians are too busy building up what the Lord has committed to them, aka those evil "denominations."

You really have no idea what Christians are doing because "the wind blows where it wills," and so it is with the children of God "who are born of the Spirit." (John 3)

[Evangelical]

A generalization is what it means. You and others should be able to understand that a generalization could cover 51 to 100 % of the truth. I would put that at more than 51% however, since I can guarantee that if I go to any denomination in my local area on a Sunday that most are "sit in the pew give a few buck members". They give a few bucks so the preacher can keep his job. They can't wait for the service to end so they can get on with "blowing wherever they like".

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

They can't wait for the service to end so they can get on with "blowing wherever they like".

And the solution is to come under the ministry of the age? Because if you are local, but not kow-towing to the Generals in Anaheim, you're still deemed "not meeting".

The solution is to blow up Christianity, not with another organizational scheme a la Nee & Lee, but "be burning in Spirit". That and love, a little humility in receiving the Lord's speaking in His Body, not despising the gifts of the little ones and exalting the pseudo-Giants, and all that Evangelical dismisses so categorically might be very different.

Might not. But I'll take that chance, over the latest 5 Year Plan from Chairman of the Body.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

And the solution is to come under the ministry of the age? Because if you are local, but not kow-towing to the Generals in Anaheim, you're still deemed "not meeting".

The solution is to blow up Christianity, not with another organizational scheme a la Nee & Lee, but "be burning in Spirit". That and love, a little humility in receiving the Lord's speaking in His Body, not despising the gifts of the little ones and exalting the pseudo-Giants, and all that Evangelical dismisses so categorically might be very different.

Might not. But I'll take that chance, over the latest 5 Year Plan from Chairman of the Body.

I like your idea of blowing up Christianity but by being burning in Spirit.

I wonder if you know which denomination/church you think should or can do that? Is it the ones holding routine church services as they have for the past few hundred years, or is it the ones who actually teach and try to practice being burning in Spirit?

[Kevin]

I've heard a lot of folks here in my place disparaging Christianity.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I've heard a lot of folks here in my place disparaging Christianity.

We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves. And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

[Kevin]

I posted this on my Facebook wall a year ago. It's maddening to me that my newfeed is feed up with attacks on Christianity.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I posted this on my Facebook wall a year ago. It's maddening to me that my newfeed is feed up with attacks on Christianity.

Kevin, I can’t read the “thumbnail” of what you posted on Facebook a year ago... too pixelated, and thus can’t respond.

Could you type it out for us?

JJ

[awareness]

Originally Posted by JJ

Kevin, I can’t read the “thumbnail” of what you posted on Facebook a year ago... too pixelated, and thus can’t respond.

Could you type it out for us?

JJ

"If you were taught that there is no life outside of your movement, everything is just degraded, deformed, and Christless Christianity and Christians who are in it can never be part of the Bride unless they overcome their denominational grounds is a LIE from hell and that it needs to be addressed and exposed. Not gonna buy hyper-localism.
#AgainstExclusivism
#AlwaysRecovering/Reforming"