God-men or Con-men in the Lord's Recovery

[Indiana]

Our brothers in Christ who have been led by Brother Lee have the same problem he did in the leadership. They hide sins instead of dealing with them - like politicians, not God-men. They support lies and speak them too, without conscience, as certain politicians do, and such ones as are protected by other politicians unfaithful to the truth.

In the area of truthfulness concerning past relationships in the churches, our brothers in Christ are not God-men at all; rather, they deceive the saints by controlling information and actually con them into thinking things are true that are not. I have never liked hearing the word con-man used to describe our leaders but I now have to admit that the distinction is fitting after all that has been uncovered. S. I.


www.twoturmoils.com/GodmenORConmen.pdf

Chinese Blending Brothers Collaborate
www.twoturmoils.com/SailingovertheTruthAgain.pdf

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Our brothers in Christ who have been led by Brother Lee have the same problem he did in the leadership. They hide sins instead of dealing with them - like politicians, not God-men. They support lies and speak them too, without conscience, as certain politicians do, and such ones as are protected by other politicians unfaithful to the truth.

In the area of truthfulness concerning past relationships in the churches, our brothers in Christ are not God-men at all; rather, they deceive the saints by controlling information and actually con them into thinking things are true that are not.

• Hide sins
• Support lies
• Deceive saints by controlling information

“Moreover, among the prophets of Samaria I saw an offensive thing:
They prophesied by Baal and led My people Israel astray.
“Also among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing:
The committing of adultery and walking in falsehood;
And they strengthen the hands of evildoers,
So that no one has turned back from his wickedness.
All of them have become to Me like Sodom,
And her inhabitants like Gomorrah. Jeremiah 23:13-14

[NewManLiving]

Banner High Peak Book 1994
Wherever there is division, there is spiritual fornication, idolatry, self-, and self- exaltation. Without self-exaltation, there could be no division. Living the life of a God-man saves us from all these negative things. To live such a life is to live Christ (Phil. 1:21), the very model of the God-man life.

Most, if not all of the division in the LC has been and continues to be caused by a conscious and deliberate violation of the message given in this book. The author himself being the first violator, followed by his self-appointed successors who continue this sinful practice. To talk about being a God Man is easy, to be one is not so easy. The overwhelming evidence speaks for itself: These brothers are more like con-men than God-men!

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Banner High Peak Book 1994
Wherever there is division, there is spiritual fornication, idolatry, self-, and self- exaltation. Without self-exaltation, there could be no division. Living the life of a God-man saves us from all these negative things. To live such a life is to live Christ (Phil. 1:21), the very model of the God-man life.

Most, if not all of the division in the LC has been and continues to be caused by a conscious and deliberate violation of the message given in this book. The author himself being the first violator, followed by his self-appointed successors who continue this sinful practice. To talk about being a God Man is easy, to be one is not so easy. The overwhelming evidence speaks for itself: These brothers are more like con-men than God-men!

Paul Kerr shares in an email:
"The introduction of truth into any situation is like a spot light and forces those involved to either submit to it or not. In the Lord's work when we find ourselves weaseling around the truth for personal loyalties, financial considerations, politics, etc. we have already compromised ourselves.

"Along this line, I recall a leaders meeting before a Sunday morning meeting in Anaheim during the late eighties turmoil. A few of us younger brothers who were learning to serve in the church, were helping the elders who were there and had been involved in such meetings for quite some time. I had asked the question: "Why should we let two brothers [Brother Lee & his son], who don't even come to the meetings, wreak havoc on a church of over 500 people? Let's just ignore them and go on." Just after I asked it, Philip Lin walked in late. He asked, "What did Paul ask?" Godfred replied, "It was a very good question, Paul go ahead and ask it again?" So I did, and this was Philip Lin’s almost verbatim response:

"I know in my conscience you brothers are right according to the truth, but in my culture I must be loyal to Witness Lee."

"Of course he was not just referring to my question but to the overall situation, the sixteen points the faithful elders had previously ministered, and more. Frankly, I appreciated and admired his honesty. It was so striking I still clearly remember it today. He was one of the few who openly admitted that his loyalty was personalized."

Philip, here, in this setting with “dissenting brothers”, as you disparagingly refer to them, you could be honest. But you have not walked in that honesty as your book reveals, which apparently was only reviewed by other Chinese, loyal to their culture also and to brother Lee; not to the truth or to the Lord who crucified their culture on the cross.

[Freedom]

Philip Lin says of Lee “he was not perfect, no one is perfect.” I consider statements like these to be a ploy. Because Lee was presumed to be a pristine leader, the commonly held view within the LC is somewhere along those lines, or at least there has been a refusal to admit that he had any imperfections ("even when he's wrong, he's right").

Because so much information regarding the true Lee has been made available on the internet, leaders would look foolish if they were to completely deny that Lee had faults. They have to put a spin on things from a different angle. So what does Lin do? He make a quick admission to that fact without delving into the details. His statement is as generic as they come and in essence he has said nothing at all.

I have read Lin's book and I can say from reading it, he knew very well that his intended audience might include people such as those on this forum. He mentions questionable periods in LC history that many members would know nothing about, yet he doesn't fully address these things. He mentions it as if these things have long since come and gone and were resolved long ago. It's a ploy to get people to let their guard down who might otherwise be suspicious of things.

The problem with running a con for so long is that after more and more have been scammed, there will be more and more vocal detractors. If leaders truly believe that they are not con-men, then now is the time for them to come forward and address long overdue concerns. Sweeping things under the rug will only make matters worse.

[Ohio]

Philip Lin says of Lee “he was not perfect, no one is perfect.” I consider statements like these to be a ploy. Because Lee was presumed to be a pristine leader, the commonly held view within the LC is somewhere along those lines, or at least there has been a refusal to admit that he had any imperfections ("even when he's wrong, he's right").

Because so much information regarding the true Lee has been made available on the internet, leaders would look foolish if they were to completely deny that Lee had faults. They have to put a spin on things from a different angle. So what does Lin do? He make a quick admission to that fact without delving into the details. His statement is as generic as they come and in essence he has said nothing at all.

It was not until I read Ingalls' account in STTIL in 2005 that my blinders began to be removed. Before then, I totally viewed Nee and Lee as the "purest" life forms known to man, having spent their entire lives being wrongly accused and persecuted by all those around them. In my mind, they were like Joseph, David chased by Saul, and Jesus Himself, hated without a cause, and suffering every atrocity for God, for the truth, for the gospel, and for righteousness.

Even though the internet had been around for some time, it was not until the pending GLA quarantines that I and others began searching for answers. The Berean and LCD forums then became a clearinghouse for the actual factual history of the LCM and LSM. Former members, many of whom I had known and respected, began to write their stories, and the Nee/Lee facade of godly "purity" vaporized like the morning fog.

Saying things like "everyone makes mistakes" and "no one is perfect" merely creates a ruse to keep members from looking further. It is strictly deception to categorize Lee and Sons' checkered history as "mistakes" or such. This explains why active and positive members, such as myself, would get instantly "poisoned" upon learning the truth of past "storms." Not only was our sordid past covered over and "sanitized" with the halo of persecution, but the record was whitewashed with alternative and supposedly "believable" versions of history, e.g. "global conspiracies concocted overnight by ambitious men to destroy God's testimony."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Saying things like "everyone makes mistakes" and "no one is perfect" merely creates a ruse to keep members from looking further. It is strictly deception to categorize Lee and Sons' checkered history as "mistakes" or such. This explains why active and positive members, such as myself, would get instantly "poisoned" upon learning the truth of past "storms." Not only was our sordid past covered over and "sanitized" with the halo of persecution, but the record was whitewashed with alternative and supposedly "believable" versions of history, e.g. "global conspiracies concocted overnight by ambitious men to destroy God's testimony."

Over the years, there were several times where I made a passing reference to a concern that I had. The typical response was along the lines of "well, the brothers aren't perfect you know." It's as if that was the one size fits all excuse for questionable behavior or practices.

At a very basic level, it's insulting that merely expressing a concern would be immediately equated with us expecting leaders to be perfect. LC leaders like to characterize us as purposely trying to nitpick at WL or as trying to expose his faults. That's a complete mis-characterization of the issue. It's understandable why they do avoid talking about imperfections. Is not that imperfections would normally be a big deal, but because of the amount of things that have been swept under the rug, addressing even simple concerns could quickly lead to discussion of problems that are fundamental to the LC.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I have read Lin's book and I can say from reading it, he knew very well that his intended audience might include people such as those on this forum. He mentions questionable periods in LC history that many members would know nothing about, yet he doesn't fully address these things. He mentions it as if these things have long since come and gone and were resolved long ago. It's a ploy to get people to let their guard down who might otherwise be suspicious of things.

The problem with running a con for so long is that after more and more have been scammed, there will be more and more vocal detractors. If leaders truly believe that they are not con-men, then now is the time for them to come forward and address long overdue concerns. Sweeping things under the rug will only make matters worse.

God-man Living

Philip, you said that with the Lord Jesus, “His living and His working had no distinction” and that it was the same with the apostle Paul, “his living was his teaching; his teaching was his living” and, “with Brother Lee we can testify that his living was the best interpretation of what he taught. What he lived out and worked out was the very essence of the message he constantly delivered to the churches in the recovery”, (taken from his eulogy) You live Christ out sometimes, Philip; I live Christ out sometimes; brother Lee lived Christ sometimes. If we speak just of the sometimes, we all would be considered God-men in our living. But you added “He often said that he had been repenting for not being faithful and living Christ in his daily life.” Sometimes he lived Christ, many times he did not, like others. He also made mistakes as he at rare times admitted.

"Although I have always intended to do the right thing, I have nevertheless made many mistakes, even some big mistakes. I certainly hate these mistakes..."
(Eph. Life Study p. 273, W. L.)

Also at the onset of the new way, he shared that only the Lord Jesus was mistake-free and that “all of us” have made mistakes.

Witness Lee: "My point is this—do not think that any leader could not make a mistake. Only the Lord Jesus, the unique Leader, never made any mistake. It is absolutely impossible for Him to be mistaken. However, all of us, including Peter, have made many mistakes." (One Accord for the Lord’s Move, E. T., Book 7, p. 113)

"All responsible brothers in all localities need to learn. The eyes of the brothers and sisters all need to be opened. Too many things we need to learn.

I admit that in the past we have all made mistakes, including myself. For this I repented before the Lord in tears.

You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another. Then you will see that, we, in the past, were wrong! To understand and analyze this needs a fair bit of effort.

We have to receive people according to the Son of God, not deviating from the path.”
(W.Lee Final message Chinese New Year Conference, Anaheim, February 1997)

***

Philip Lin’s book was designed to spruce up the image of Witness Lee and son Philip to impress especially the young people that this tandem leadership on display from 1974 to 1989 was completely beyond reproach. The Witness Lee that Philip Lin did not talk about was a controversial figure. It was quite serious with him, and the saints should know who this Witness Lee was and learn from his history also, which had cost the church dearly.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Indiana

"Although I have always intended to do the right thing, I have nevertheless made many mistakes, even some big mistakes. I certainly hate these mistakes..."
(Eph. Life Study p. 273, W. L.)

Also at the onset of the new way, he shared that only the Lord Jesus was mistake-free and that “all of us” have made mistakes.

Witness Lee: "My point is this—do not think that any leader could not make a mistake. Only the Lord Jesus, the unique Leader, never made any mistake. It is absolutely impossible for Him to be mistaken. However, all of us, including Peter, have made many mistakes." (One Accord for the Lord’s Move, E. T., Book 7, p. 113)

In a normal church setting, I think that most people understand that leaders can and will make mistakes. More often than not, that has already been accounted for. In the LC, however, the mistakes being made were horrendous and monumental, enough so that I think that members had already exhausted the amount of leniency they were willing to give to WL.

It's probably fair to say that many leaders were more lenient towards Lee than they should have been. For example, those who were kicked out in the 80's didn't really make a fuss about Daystar, even though they probably could have raised concerns at that point in time. Thus, WL's ministry was already living on borrowed time, and it's appalling to see that he would admit to making mistakes only in a vague way.

WL was given the benefit of the doubt much more than he ever deserved. He never was grateful about that, he just turned right around and took advantage of it.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Our brothers in Christ who have been led by Brother Lee have the same problem he did in the leadership. They hide sins instead of dealing with them - like politicians, not God-men. They support lies and speak them too, without conscience, as certain politicians do, and such ones as are protected by other politicians unfaithful to the truth.

In the area of truthfulness concerning past relationships in the churches, our brothers in Christ are not God-men at all; rather, they deceive the saints by controlling information and actually con them into thinking things are true that are not. I have never liked hearing the word con-man used to describe our leaders but I now have to admit that the distinction is fitting after all that has been uncovered. S. I.


www.twoturmoils.com/GodmenORConmen.pdf

Chinese Blending Brothers Collaborate
www.twoturmoils.com/SailingovertheTruthAgain.pdf

Something that has been frequently discussed, and something that I am inclined to agree with is that WL's latter ministry (aka "high peak") was a guise for the questionable activities that had occurred prior.

Terminology like "God-men" is just an attempt to quietly uplift those who would have otherwise questionable character.

Although calling LC leaders "con-men" is a bit provocative, it is a deserving title. Things must be called for which they are, otherwise deception will run rampant.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Although calling LC leaders "con-men" is a bit provocative, it is a deserving title. Things must be called for which they are, otherwise deception will run rampant.

AND, deception has run rampant over the years, being cap stoned in a 2014 book by the blending brothers - who underscore, rather than uncover, the falsehoods they helped create and shamelessly perpetuate.

Dear brother Philip Lin,

Thank you for pointing out in your book the commendable aspects you observed in the life of Witness Lee that you attest to as one who was close to him for many years. Although I was not close to him, I benefited greatly from him and his ministry, as you shared about in your experience: “Witness Lee helped me to enjoy Christ as my life and as my life supply, which enabled me to live a normal Christian life. Through his ministry I also saw the divine economy of God, and his ministry supplies Christ’s grace in faith and love for me to persevere in my walk unto Christ’s return.” Many have a similar testimony, Philip.

But, as you know, many also have a testimony of a different kind that warrants much attention which you did not detail in your book; the truth shows there is a painful contrast between the Witness Lee you depict and the one you do not. You certainly hinted that brother Lee had weaknesses and you made use of the oft-used clause for covering him up saying that “he was not perfect, no one is perfect”, but you concealed any detail, only stating that he wasn’t meant to be in business. There was no detail on this and any other lamentable aspect that damaged his testimony and the churches. Consequently, you are not as Paul, the apostle who could say, “we have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty”; but instead in a crafty way you dance around the truth and keep hidden things hidden that should be renounced.

This has been the way of the blending brothers, to sail over the truth. And after years of sailing, Andrew Yu and Minoru Chen, apparently endorsing your book, are sailing on over the truth again.

Chinese Blending Brothers Collaborate

www.twoturmoils.com/SailingovertheTruthAgain.pdf

[HERn]

I believe all the being blended brothers an elders would agree that they are outside of Christianity. I think there are 8 million JWs and 14 million Mormons in the world who most Protestants would also are outside of Christianity. There may be a few perfectly good teachings in both of those groups, as there may be in the Lord's Recovery, but why would anyone want to go to these groups for any teaching. Oh, that's right all of them have special men that saw things that evaded Paul, John, Peter, and even the Christ of God never saw. There is no MOTA, there is only the Christ, His apostles, and faithful elders, pastors, and deacons who gave their lives for the church. Many of the earliest church fathers were martyred or died destitute. WL died relatively rich as the head of a small religious organization and publishing house. I'll honor God, His Christ, and the faithful saints who gave their lives. I will not honor a man that deceived the saints to contribute to a RV manufacturing scheme that apparently made his reprobate son rich.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Freedom

...Although calling LC leaders "con-men" is a bit provocative, it is a deserving title. Things must be called for which they are, otherwise deception will run rampant.

Sacrifice and Sail On
Responding to Philip Lin's book

"...Witness Lee said in 1988 he pondered seriously the concerns of several brothers who had been in contact with him, and he checked with the Lord earnestly to see if he was making any mistakes in his ministry. He concluded that he was all right before the Lord and that he should just “sail on”, and issued the command to the churches to do likewise. Philip, your book shows that you have followed that command. To sail on you had to sacrifice. You sacrificed firstly your conscience, and therefore the truth; having done that, it became easy for you to sacrifice your brothers, as brother Lee did, and became the example.

"This is the keystone of your book to me that you have done this again and merely repeat the same mistakes made by leaders before you. You have truly sacrificed and are still sailing on. Instead of manifesting the truth this time by renouncing the hidden things of shame, you glorify someone; and speak falsehoods about others, brothers who you know were right according to your conscience and who stood against the hidden things brought to your attention then, and now.

This has been the way of the blending brothers, to sail over the truth. And after years of sailing, Andrew Yu and Minoru Chen, apparently endorsing your book, are sailing on over the truth again [

***

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Sacrifice and Sail On
Responding to Philip Lin's book

"...Witness Lee said in 1988 he pondered seriously the concerns of several brothers who had been in contact with him, and he checked with the Lord earnestly to see if he was making any mistakes in his ministry. He concluded that he was all right before the Lord and that he should just “sail on”, and issued the command to the churches to do likewise. Philip, your book shows that you have followed that command. To sail on you had to sacrifice. You sacrificed firstly your conscience, and therefore the truth; having done that, it became easy for you to sacrifice your brothers, as brother Lee did, and became the example.

"This is the keystone of your book to me that you have done this again and merely repeat the same mistakes made by leaders before you. You have truly sacrificed and are still sailing on. Instead of manifesting the truth this time by renouncing the hidden things of shame, you glorify someone; and speak falsehoods about others, brothers who you know were right according to your conscience and who stood against the hidden things brought to your attention then, and now.

This has been the way of the blending brothers, to sail over the truth. And after years of sailing, Andrew Yu and Minoru Chen, apparently endorsing your book, are sailing on over the truth again [

***

What would Philip Lin say in response to what he said to Paul Kerr in the late 80's?
In respect to Witness Lee, I would never say he was a "God-man". In respect to his spoken ministry, it was not a con. In respect to his business dealings of Daystar, LSM, Linko, etc it was definitely a con. Why focus primarily on Chinese speaking saints?

• Generally more capital than English speaking saints
• Chinese saints are more easily manipulated than English speaking saints

Why would English speaking co-workers continue speaking the praises of Witness Lee?

• They're paid employees of LSM
• They're fiancially supported by the localities they "claim" to serve.
• Respect and pride