Nothing New under the Sun

[rayliotta]

I came across this article and portions of it resonated with my experience. It's about a documentary, that just came out, about another church.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel...b_6241958.html

I haven't seen the documentary, and probably don't have the desire to. But there are things described in this article that feel familiar to me.

[rayliotta]

The documentary is about the Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm sure there are big differences between the JW's and the Lord's Recovery. I'm sure there are big differences between Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and Living Stream Ministry.

But there are probably some similarities as well.

[aron]

I found the comments after the story to be revealing of the JW mindset. You could pretty easily tell who were the JW posters. Humorless, affectionless, judgmental, closed-minded. That's the real face of this exclusive sect, not those smiling faces in their literature.

There certainly are similarities to the LSM churches. You are either subservient to the (LSM/JW) programme or you're ignored or condemned. Any attempt at real interaction, involving critical thinking, makes them antagonistic. Everyone must submit. Independent thought is not allowed -- Big Brother has spoken.

[Freedom]

This is an interesting article. I can certainly see some of the similarities between the JW's and the LC. Actually, WL himself said that he studied the Mormons and JW's to develop his method of door-knocking for the new way, so the LC is more similar to the JW's than some might realize. Here is a quote from the article that I think could easily be applied to the LC:

I think Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are happy, at least in the Jehovah's Witness version of happiness. Problem is, this happiness resides outside of themselves in a facade, a pious Potemkin Village where members are simply aping the smiling happy people and fellowship depicted in Jehovah's Witness literature designed to elicit emotional versus rational responses. In short, their happiness is informed by their own propaganda.

On thing that I have come to realize recently is that much like the JW's, those in the LC have a very different view of themselves than the way in which they come across to the general public. I'm sure when JW's go door to door, they feel they are doing God's work and have something very special to share with people. Of course, when people see the JW's out, they quickly shut the blinds or make sure they won't have to interact with them. There is a huge discrepancy in how the JW's see themselves versus how people see them. I think the same can be said of the LC, even though most don't know what the LC is. Something I have seen countless times is when a new contact is invited to a meeting. The view everyone in the LC has is that the meeting will be so "captivating" that the person will definitely be back. I have seen new people countless times where they have this look on their face like they want to run for the door, and more often than not, you don't see many come back a second time.

WL certainly did a good job at instilling the belief in everyone that the LC is special and unique. Because of this, I think those in the LC have the expectation that it will provide happiness/contentment in their personal lives, and the more bold members might also feel that they have a special message to share with friends or people that they meet. Looking around in the LC, this view is all just a guise. In reality, people act happy because they feel that is how they are supposed to act. It is an expectation they are trying to meet. I have sung that song "Splendid Church Life" countless times and I used to really believe that song reflected my experience. Later on, I had to admit to myself that I felt that way because I was conditioned to feel that way. It had nothing to do with my experience.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Something I have seen countless times is when a new contact is invited to a meeting. The view everyone in the LC has is that the meeting will be so "captivating" that the person will definitely be back. I have seen new people countless times where they have this look on their face like they want to run for the door, and more often than not, you don't see many come back a second time.

Yes, some people who visit local church meetings are quite uncomfortable with them, to the point of being "creeped out." By the time I left, after growing up there, I was creeped out, too. Hard to describe that feeling.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Yes, some people who visit local church meetings are quite uncomfortable with them, to the point of being "creeped out." By the time I left, after growing up there, I was creeped out, too. Hard to describe that feeling.

I know how you feel. I came to a certain point where I realized that nothing was as it seemed with regards to the LC. Instead of wanting to see new people come to the meetings, I hoped that they would have the sense run as far away as possible. I couldn't stand knowing that there was so much nonsense going on behind the scenes that couldn't be addressed. It made me start feeling uncomfortable, as if I was just a pawn who had to sit in a chair, put on a happy face and make the LC look like a nice happy place for people to be.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Yes, some people who visit local church meetings are quite uncomfortable with them, to the point of being "creeped out." By the time I left, after growing up there, I was creeped out, too. Hard to describe that feeling.

Everyone who has left knows the feeling rayliotta ! What is even weirder (although I totally understand why it is) is that as much as most are happy to have left, there is a strange pull that wants 'us' to return. For example, I left in 1978. When I decided I wanted to return to my Creator and hang out with my spiritual family instead of all the unbelievers, I went to a few LC meetings wondering if that is where God wanted me to be. Really??? 30 some years later?? And I wondered if God wanted me to return ?

The woman who is married to an LCr met him after he had left and was attending another 'church'. Once they got married, he decides he wants to return to the LC...

go figure!

[Lisbon]

In 1973 a responsible elder told of a story of a happening in China. A brother with the gift of healing was much used in the church and my understanding was there was no "funny" things associated with his gift. Sick people came to him and he prayed for them and they got healed. Sounds great and to my understanding it was great.

Then the "leading ones" felt to ask him to curb his gift which he obeyed.
Some time later there came a time when they wished for some help from the gifted brother and asked him to again function with his gift.

My question is did anybody hear if the healings reappeared? My poor feeling is that you start physically messing with the spiritual and all falls down but I am open to good news if I am wrong. And of course I am talking about a long time ago. Not just because I was raised in Pentecost but the Bible clearly said Jesus healed all that came to Him. Peter and John healed. Paul healed, the book of James speaks of healings, but my United Methodist minister uncle sternly said the day of miracles is over.

In the LC we mainly prayed for leading ones and to my knowledge, they all died. I really do believe our discriminating prayers for the "heads" screwed up the desire of the Lord to answer.

Lisbon

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

In 1973 a responsible elder told of a story of a happening in China. A brother with the gift of healing was much used in the church and my understanding was there was no "funny" things associated with his gift. Sick people came to him and he prayed for them and they got healed. Sounds great and to my understanding it was great.

Then the "leading ones" felt to ask him to curb his gift which he obeyed.
Some time later there came a time when they wished for some help from the gifted brother and asked him to again function with his gift.

My question is did anybody hear if the healings reappeared?

There was a similar brother in Taiwan who operated in the gift of healing. He came and prayed for my mom when she had a leg injury when she was young with my grandmother. During the prayer time my grandmother had a sense that my mom was healed and said something like "okay enough praying, stand up and walk!", and my mom did so.

According to my mom and grandma this brother was also asked to stop operating in his gift of healing by Witness Lee. However unlike the brother you mentioned it, it seems like he was offended and stopped meeting in the local churches.

My poor feeling is that you start physically messing with the spiritual and all falls down but I am open to good news if I am wrong. And of course I am talking about a long time ago. Not just because I was raised in Pentecost but the Bible clearly said Jesus healed all that came to Him. Peter and John healed. Paul healed, the book of James speaks of healings, but my United Methodist minister uncle sternly said the day of miracles is over.

That's funny, back in 2012 I once went to a Presbyterian church in Lake Tahoe, CA of all places and towards the end of the sermon, the pastor there pulled out the current issue of Christianity Today with Heidi Baker and said "whether you like it or not, miracles still do happen today, just read this Christianity Today article on Heidi Baker and the medically documented miracles".

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...ozambique.html

I always had a sense that Presbyterian churches were cessationist for the most part, but then again I know of a Pentecostal/Charismatic preacher that sometimes gets invited to preach at Presbyterian and even Baptist churches. According to his account, during one sermon this Pastor, Del Augusta, felt a leading from the Lord to yell "Fire!" several times (in reference to being baptized by fire / Holy Spirit). He fought the urge with everything he had because it was of course crazy, but in the end he obeyed. The whole congregation in the Presbyterian church who didn't believe in miracles or falling out due to the Holy Spirit or anything crazy like that fell out on the ground.

In the LC we mainly prayed for leading ones and to my knowledge, they all died. I really do believe our discriminating prayers for the "heads" screwed up the desire of the Lord to answer.

Lisbon

I've heard it said that when someone gets a gift such as prophecy or healing, it is irrevocable according to verses such as Romans 11:29.

"for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

[Lisbon]

I left LC exactly two years ago and no desire to return except occasionally to go with my family and be with old friends. I was there 40 years and many are my friends but I strongly believe they are badly deceived. I feel little different about the RCC or the Mormons. WL became another Joseph Smith or Pope.

Lisbon

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I left LC exactly two years ago and no desire to return except occasionally to go with my family and be with old friends. I was there 40 years and many are my friends but I strongly believe they are badly deceived. I feel little different about the RCC or the Mormons. WL became another Joseph Smith or Pope.

Lisbon

I have read Brethren history, and I think John Darby is a better example of what Lee became. Darby, of course, was a genuine brother in Christ seeking to know and serve the Lord, but eventually many felt he had become a far worse "pope" than the one he constantly condemned in Rome.

I understand your points however, Lisbon, but most former or current LC'ers would dismiss your comparisons because it is doubtful that many of the Popes or Joseph Smith were even saved.

May you and all have a Blessed New Year in Christ Jesus!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I understand your points however, Lisbon, but most former or current LC'ers would dismiss your comparisons because it is doubtful that many of the Popes or Joseph Smith were even saved.

Autocratic leadership, centralization of power under "God's man of the hour," special revelations, and proprietary salvation, or at least proprietary sanctification and reward... doesn't seem too far-fetched to make comparisons.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Autocratic leadership, centralization of power under "God's man of the hour," special revelations, and proprietary salvation, or at least proprietary sanctification and reward... doesn't seem too far-fetched to make comparisons.

And don't forget the masses of traumatized sheep who "couldn’t make it" in the system and were cut adrift with the programs still running in their heads. They are so trapped in the mindset and teachings that they can't conceive of reality except the one that's been denied them. Their bodies are out but their souls remain in the system.

I've met with people who struggled to identify Christ, but instead called themselves "lapsed Catholics", and read blogs by ex-Mormons who still acknowledged 'their sacred writings' even though they couldn't handle the contradictions of the system, and seen ex-Local Churchers who couldn't meet with any other Christians because "they weren't on the ground of oneness".

Even though the system was ruinous for them, they couldn't conceive of any other system. They thought somehow their own imperfections were the fault.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Even though the system was ruinous for them, they couldn't conceive of any other system. They thought somehow their own imperfections were the fault.

And this was conditioned in the Local Churches by the focus on "good building material", versus sinners who need transformation. And the idea of "making it", as if the system is perfect and given by God Himself, but our inability to make sufficient progress is due to our inherent failures, which apparently cannot be corrected.

How can any system change, if it blames the people within it for its own shorcomings? And how can any system thus constructed do anything but continually spit out traumatized souls who tried and failed to please the system's unreachable dictates?