mann-man's Blog

[manna-man]

The Word is a thread we can all devote too. It can be a teaching or a literal word to expound on. Even a strong opinion on what you think.

So go ahead jump in and share what's on your mind or in your spirit.

First Word:

Grace: How can we learn more about it through understanding the names of GOD?
By examining each of His names we learn more about what He is to us and what He did for us.

Have a good and Godly Day!

Don Jr


The Names of God
by Lambert Dolphin

Old Testament (The Hebrew Scriptures, or Tanach):
EL: God ("mighty, strong, prominent") used 250 times in the OT See Gen. 7:1, 28:3, 35:11; Nu. 23:22; Josh. 3:10; 2 Sam. 22:31, 32; Neh. 1:5, 9:32; Isa. 9:6; Ezek. 10:5. El is linguistically equivalent to the Moslem "Allah," but the attributes of Allah in Islam are entirely different from those of the God of the Hebrews. ELAH is Aramaic, "god." Elah appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jer. 10:11 (which is in Aramaic, and is plural, "gods"). In Daniel (the Aramaic sections) Elah is used both of pagan gods, and of the true God, also plural. Elah is equivalent to the Hebrew Eloah which some think is dual; Elohim is three or more. The gods of the nations are called "elohim." The origin of Eloah is obscure. Elohim is the more common plural form of El. Eloah is used 41 times in Job between 3:4 and 40:2, but fewer than 15 times elsewhere in the OT. See the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Elohim.

ELOHIM: God (a plural noun, more than two, used with singular verbs); Elohim occurs 2,570 times in the OT, 32 times in Gen. 1. God as Creator, Preserver, Transcendent, Mighty and Strong. Eccl., Dan. Jonah use Elohim almost exclusively. See Gen. 17:7, 6:18, 9:15, 50:24; I Kings 8:23; Jer. 31:33; Isa. 40:1.

EL SHADDAI: God Almighty or "God All Sufficient." 48 times in the OT, 31 times in Job. First used in Gen. 17:1, 2. (Gen. 31:29, 49:24, 25; Prov. 3:27; Micah 2:1; Isa. 60:15, 16, 66:10-13; Ruth 1:20, 21) In Rev. 16:7, "Lord God the Almighty." The Septuagint uses Greek "ikanos" meaning "all-sufficient" or "self-sufficient." The idols of the heathen are called "sheddim."

ADONAI: Lord in our English Bibles (Capitol letter 'L ', lower case, 'ord') (Adonai is plural, the sing. is "adon"). "Master'' or "Lord" 300 times in the OT always plural when referring to God, when sing. the reference is to a human lord. Used 215 times to refer to men. First use of Adonai, Gen. 15:2. (Ex. 4:10; Judges 6:15; 2 Sam. 7:18-20; Ps. 8, 114:7, 135:5, 141:8, 109:21-28). Heavy use in Isaiah (Adonai Jehovah). 200 times by Ezekiel. Ten times in Dan. 9.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JEHOVAH: LORD in our English Bibles (all capitals). Yahweh is the covenant name of God. Occurs 6823 times in the OT First use Gen. 2:4 (Jehovah Elohim). From the verb "to be", havah, similar to chavah (to live), "The Self-Existent One," "I AM WHO I AM" or 'I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE" as revealed to Moses at the burning bush, Ex.3. The name of God, too sacred to be uttered, abbreviated ( . . . . ) or written "YHWH" without vowel points. The tetragrammaton. Josh., Judges, Sam., and Kings use Jehovah almost exclusively. The love of God is conditioned upon His moral and spiritual attributes. (Dan. 9:14; Ps. 11:7; Lev. 19:2; Hab. 1:12). Note Deut. 6:4, 5 known to Jews as the Sh'ma uses both Jehovah and Elohim to indicate one God with a plurality of persons.

JEHOVAH-JIREH: "The Lord will Provide." Gen. 22:14. From "jireh" ("to see" or "to provide," or to "foresee" as a prophet.) God always provides, adequate when the times come.

JEHOVAH-ROPHE: "The Lord Who Heals" Ex. 15:22-26. From "rophe" ("to heal"); implies spiritual, emotional as well as physical healing. (Jer. 30:17, 3:22; Isa. 61:1) God heals body, soul and spirit; all levels of man's being.

JEHOVAH-NISSI: "The Lord Our Banner." Ex. 17:15. God on the battlefield, from word which means "to glisten," "to lift up," See Psalm 4:6.

JEHOVAH-M'KADDESH: "The Lord Who Sanctifies" Lev. 20:8. "To make whole, set apart for holiness."

JEHOVAH-SHALOM: "The Lord Our Peace" Judges 6:24. "Shalom" translated "peace" 170 times means "whole," "finished," "fulfilled," "perfected." Related to "well," welfare." Deut. 27:6; Dan. 5:26; I Kings 9:25 8:61; Gen. 15:16; Ex. 21:34, 22:5, 6; Lev. 7:11-21. Shalom means that kind of peace that results from being a whole person in right relationship to God and to one's fellow man.

SHEPHERD: Psa. 23, 79:13, 95:7, 80:1, 100:3; Gen. 49:24; Isa. 40:11.

JUDGE: Psa. 7:8, 96:13.

JEHOVAH ELOHIM: "LORD God" Gen. 2:4; Judges 5:3; Isa. 17:6; Zeph. 2:9; Psa. 59:5, etc.

JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU "The Lord Our Righteousness" Jer. 23:5, 6, 33:16. From "tsidek" (straight, stiff, balanced - as on scales - full weight, justice, right, righteous, declared innocent.) God our Righteousness.

JEHOVAH-ROHI: "The Lord Our Shepherd" Psa. 23, from "ro'eh" (to pasture).

JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH: "The Lord is There" (Ezek. 48:35).

JEHOVAH-SABAOTH: "The Lord of Hosts" The commander of the angelic host and the armies of God. Isa. 1:24; Psa. 46:7, 11; 2 Kings 3:9-12; Jer. 11:20 (NT: Rom. 9:29; James 5:4, Rev. 19: 11-16).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EL ELYON: 'Most High" (from "to go up") Deut. 26:19, 32:8; Psa. 18:13; Gen. 14:18; Nu. 24:16; Psa. 78:35, 7:17, 18:13, 97:9, 56:2, 78:56, 18:13; Dan. 7:25, 27; Isa. 14:14.

ABHIR: 'Mighty One', ("to be strong") Gen. 49:24; Deut. 10:17; Psa. 132:2, 5; Isa. 1:24, 49:26, 60:1.

BRANCH: (tsemach), The Branch: Zech. 3:8, 6:12; Isa. 4:2; Jer. 23:5, 33:15.

KADOSH: "Holy One" Psa. 71:22; Isa. 40:25, 43:3, 48:17. Isaiah uses the expression "the Holy One of Israel" 29 times.

SHAPHAT: "Judge" Gen. 18:25

EL ROI: "God of Seeing" Hagar in Gen. 16:13. The God Who opens our eyes.

KANNA: "Jealous" (zealous). Ex. 20:5, 34:14; Deut. 5:9; Isa. 9:7; Zech. 1:14, 8:2.

PALET: "Deliverer" Psa. 18:2.

YESHUA: (Yeshua) "Savior" ("he will save"). Isa. 43:3. Jesus is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Joshua." The latter is a contraction of Je-Hoshua. ("Christ", the anointed one is equivalent to the Hebrew Maschiah, or Messiah). [See Wikipedia article].

GAOL: "Redeemer" (to buy back by paying a price). Job 19:25; For example, the antitype corresponding to Boaz the Kinsman-Redeemer in the Book of Ruth.

MAGEN: "Shield" Psa. 3:3, 18:30.

STONE: Gen. 49:24

EYALUTH: "Strength" Psa. 22:19.

TSADDIQ: "Righteous One" Psa. 7:9.

EL-OLAM: "Everlasting God" (God of everlasting time) Gen. 21:33; Psa. 90:1-3, 93:2; Isa. 26:4.

EL-BERITH: "God of the Covenant" Used of Baal in Judges 9:46. Probably used originally to refer to the God of israel.

EL-GIBHOR: Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)

ZUR: "God our Rock" Deut. 32:18; Isa. 30:29.

Malachi calls Messiah "The Sun of Righteousness" (Malachi 4:2).

Isaiah calls Messiah "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (El Gibhor), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isa. 9:6).

'Attiq Yomin (Aramaic): "Ancient of Days," Dan. 7:9, 13, 22.

MELEKH: "King" Psa. 5:2, 29:10, 44:4, 47:6-8, 48:2, 68:24, 74:12, 95:3, 97:1, 99:4, 146:10; Isa. 5:1, 5, 41:21, 43:15, 44:6; 52:7, 52:10.

"The Angel of the Lord: " Gen. 16:7ff, 21:17, 22:11, 15ff, 18:1-19:1, 24:7, 40, 31:11-13, 32:24-30; Ex. 3:6, 13:21, Ezek. 1:10-13. Seen in the theophanies, or pre-incarnate appearances of the Son of God in the OT (See I Cor. 10:3 NT).

FATHER: 2 Sam. 7:14-15; Psa. 68:5; Isa. 63:16, 64:8; Mal. 1:6.

THE FIRST AND LAST: Isa. 44:6, 48:12.

New Testament Scriptures, (Greek):
KURIOS: (kurios) "Lord" Found some 600 times in the NT.

DESPOTES: (despotes) "Lord" 5 times: Lu. 2:29; Acts 4:24; 2 Pet. 2:1; Jude 4; Rev. 6:10.

THEOS: (yeos) "God" (equivalent to the Hebrew Elohim), 1,000 times in the NT. In the NT all the persons of the trinity are called "God" at one time or another.

I AM: Jesus upset his generation especially when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM," John 8:58. Note also his claim to be Jehovah in such phrases as "I AM the Light of the world," "the bread of life," living water," "the Resurrection and the Life," "the Way, Truth and the Life" in John's Gospel. From the Hebrew OT verb "to be" signifying a Living, Intelligent, Personal Being.

THEOTES: "Godhead" Col. 2:9; Rom. 1:20.

HUPSISTOS: "Highest" Mt. 21:9.

SOTER: (soter) "Savior" Luke 1:4 7.

WORD: (logos) John 1:1ff

ALMIGHTY: (pantokrator) 2 Cor. 6:18, Revelation, 9t, e.g. 19:6.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JESUS: Derived from the Hebrew "Joshua" (Y'shua) or "Je-Hoshua" meaning JEHOVAH IS SALVATION.

CHRIST: is equivalent to the Hebrew 'Messiah' (Meshiach), "The Anointed One."

Other NT Titles for Jesus: Shepherd of the Sheep; Master; King of kings; Lord of lords; Bishop and Guardian of our Souls; Daystar, Deliverer, Advocate, Last (or Second) Adam, Ancient of Days, Branch, Chief Cornerstone, Immanuel, First Born, Head of the Body, Physician, Rock, Root of Jesse, Stone, Potentate; Chief Apostle; Great High Priest; Pioneer and Perfecter of our Faith (or Author and Finisher); Lamb of God; Lamb Slain before the Foundation of the World; Lord God Almighty.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOGOS: "The Word of God" John l; Rev. 19:13.

SOPHIA: "The Wisdom of God," referring to Christ, refers back to Proverbs (I Cor. 1,2)

Father, Son, Holy Spirit: Christian orthodoxy has always understood God to be One God in Three Persons (Elohim). In The NT each person of the godhead is called "God" and "Lord" at least once.

Names for the Holy Spirit: Counselor; Comforter; Baptizer; Advocate; Strengthener; Sanctifier; Spirit of Christ (not the same as the spirit of Christ); Seven-Fold Spirit (Rev.); Spirit of Truth; Spirit of Grace; Spirit of Mercy; Spirit of God; Spirit of Holiness; Spirit of Life. Symbolized in OT and NT by (l) breath or wind; (2) fire; (3) water; (4) oil; (5) light; (6) a dove.

The Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ: Most Study Bibles have notes which give references to the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Here is what the Scofield Study Bible Notes say:

(1) In the intimations and explicit predictions of the O.T. (a) The theophanies intimate the appearance of God in human form, and His ministry thus to man (Gen. 16:7-13; 18:2-23. especially v. 17; 32. 28 with Hos. 12:3-5; Ex. 3:2-14). (b) The Messiah is expressly declared to be the Son of God (Psa. 2:2-9), and God (Psa. 45:6, 7 with Heb. 1:8,9; Psa. 110. with Mt. 22:44; Acts 2:34 and Heb. 1:13; Psa. 110.4 with Heb. 5:6; 6. 20:7. 17-21; and Zech. 6:13). (c) His virgin birth was foretold as the means through which God could be "Immanuel," God with us (Isa. 7:13, 14 with Mt. 1:22, 23). (d) The Messiah is expressly invested with the divine names (Isa. 9:6, 7). (e) In a prophecy of His death He is called Jehovah's "fellow" (Zech. 13:7 with Mt. 26:31). (f) His eternal being is declared (Mic. 5:2 with Mt. 2:6; John 7:42).

(2) Christ Himself affirmed His deity. (a) He applied to Himself the Jeho-vistic I AM. (The pronoun "he" is not in the Greek; cf. John 8:24; John 8:56-58. The Jews correctly understood this to be our Lord's claim to full deity [v. 59]. See, also, John 10:33; 18:4-6, where, also "he" is not in the original.) (b) He claimed to be the Adonai of the O.T. (Mt. 22:42-45. See Gen. 15:2, note). (c) He asserted His identity with the Father (Mt. 28:19; Mk. 14:62; John 10:30; that the Jews so understood Him is shown by vs. 31, 32; John 14:8, 9; 17. 5). (d) He exercised the chief prerogative of God (Mk. 2:5-7; Lk. 7:48-50). (e) He asserted omnipresence (Mt. 18:20; John 3:13); omniscience (John 11:11-14, when Jesus was fifty miles away; Mk. 11:6-8); omnipotence (Mt. 28:18; Lk. 7:14; John 5:21-23; 6. is); mastery over nature, and creative power (Lk. 9:16. 17; John 2:9, 10:28). (f) He received and approved human worship (Mt. 14:33; 28: 9, John 20: 28, 29).

(3) The N.T. writers ascribe divine titles to Christ (John 1:1; 20. 28; Acts 20:28; Rom. 1:4; 9:5; 2 Thess. 1:12; 1 Tim. 3:16; Tit. 2:23; Heb. 1:8; 1 John 5:20).

(4) The N.T. writers ascribe divine perfections and attributes to Christ (e.g. Mt. 11:28; 18:20, 28:20; John 1:2, 2:23-25; 3:13; 5:17; 21:17; Heb. 1:3, 11, 12 with Heb. 13:8; Rev. 1:8,17,18; 2:23; 11. 17; 22:13).

(5) The N.T. writers ascribe divine works to Christ (John 1:3. 16:17, Col. 1:16, 17; Heb. 1:3).

(6) The N.T. writers teach that supreme worship should be paid to Christ (Acts 7:59, 60; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 13:14, Phil. 2:9, 10; Heb. 1:6; Rev. 1:5, 6; 5. 12, 13).

(7) The holiness and resurrection of Christ prove His deity (John 8:46; Rom. 1:4).

Philippians 2 is the great Chapter on the kenosis or self-emptying of the Lord Jesus Christ when He became a man. His equality with the Father as the Son of God is stated here.

Note also John 5:18 "This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

A well-known NT passage of mine is Romans 9:5 "...to them (the Jewish race) belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Messiah (who is) God who is over all, blessed for ever. Amen."

ALPHA AND OMEGA: The First and the Last, The Beginning and The End (Rev. 1).

Additional Reading: Names of God, by Nathan Stone
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[manna-man]

Come on saints! anyone want to share anything? Teach anything the Lord has showed them recently? Even just say what you think.

Anybody! Any LC'rs have something fresh the Lord has blessed them with recently?
Any Former LC'rs?

I'll share if you share!

Don Jr.

[kisstheson]

Amen, dear brother manna-man.

I beg thee, give me some more time, dear brother. I would love to share something concerning the name "JEHOVAH". What profound riches are there in that Name!

I would also love to share something concerning the kenosis, or self-emptying of the Lord Jesus Christ. What depths of love we will find there!

[manna-man]

KTS,

Take your time, I'll be waiting for you.

Grace,

Don Jr.

[countmeworthy]

GRACE: The unmerited FAVOUR of GOD...

Job 33:26

He (JOB) shall pray unto God, and HE (JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU) will be favourable unto him: and HE shall see his face with joy: for HE will render unto man HIS Righteousness.

Proverbs 3:4
So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

Daniel 1:9
Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.

Luke 1:30
And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God

*** Fear NOT Saints! For thou has found FAVOUR with GOD and MAN! Believe it. RECEIVE it and Confess it out loud in Christ JESUS! ***

Luke 2:52
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

This SAME JESUS is living in us ! We are entitled to increase in Wisdom and Stature and IN FAVOUR with God and MAN !

Acts 2:46b-47
with gladness and singleness of heart,

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. The Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Praise our LORD! He has granted us FAVOUR with GOD and with MAN !!

No weapon that is formed against thee (US) shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee (US) in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of Me, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 54:17)

WOW! Are we ever BLESSED and HIGHLY FAVOURED by GOD and by MAN !! Praise and Glory and Honor to KING JESUS..with THANKSGIVING! THANK YOU Abba FATHER! HOLY SPIRIT-WE PRAISE YOU! We ADORE YOU!! WE LOVE YOU! LORD JESUS: THE Spirit and the Bride say "COME QUICKLY!!"

[Guest1]

SOPHIA: "The Wisdom of God," referring to Christ, refers back to Proverbs (I Cor. 1,2)

just recently someone told me that 'wisdom' in proverbs 8 is Christ personified..!! what verses in 1 Cor make reference back to proverbs.. i didnt find the reference in my kjv .. thanks .. God's Blessings..

[manna-man]

23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

The Cost?

What does it cost to be a Christian?

Does it mean we have to get our hands dirty? Of course it does.

Today if we look at various ministries and see the hard efforts of their ministries, we will see the potential reward!(Blessing/Growth) We may also see failure and learn from their mistakes as well.

Many have failed! Because they/we don't want to get involved/speak up.

If we recognize error and say nothing we are accomplices!

When it appears that any one member of the body goes rogue, it is time for the members of the body to react. When they/we don't, this individual can/may become harmful to the whole batch. When they/we don't consider the individual, we don't care. When we don't consider the consequence, we don't care. Why wouldn't we care for a precious member(Big or small)?

Some reasons:

It costs to much.
It would require time.
Our hands would get dirty. (Figuratively and literally)
Caring would expose me.
I'm not who I claim to be.

We must look at each individual and consider the entire picture. At least as much as it is practical.


I believe not counting the cost of ministering, was the greatest error the members of the LC made. This error should have been seen by the active Elders in the local assemblies.(and probably was)

Each (little one) also bears some resposibility. For they, like the ones in charge were comfortable with their situation and may have not wanted to rock the boat. I mean of course those who were capable of feeding themselves.

So, a question to all of you.

What does it cost to follow Jesus in healthy way?
and
What didn't the LC members do to prevent todays current situation?
and
Who is responsible?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by manna-man

23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]The Cost?

What does it cost to be a Christian?

Salvation..Eternal Salvation is a free gift.

The Anointing, however, that is the POWER, to live in The PRESENCE of GOD is costly. The woman who broke the precious alabaster box anointed Jesus with the Oil. The contents in the alabaster box were very costly but to anoint Jesus with it was a more of a blessing to her than the costly oil in the box.

The closer we get to Christ, the more we die to self. It is very costly but well worth it. WELL WORTH IT ! I KNOW IT ! I couldn't do it without the help of God the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. I may not be where I want to be but Thank GOD, I am NOT where I used to be! Praise the Precious Awesome Name of our GOD through our Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit.

Great post !

[OBW]

Originally Posted by manna-man

So, a question to all of you.

What does it cost to follow Jesus in healthy way?
and
What didn't the LC members do to prevent todays current situation?
and
Who is responsible?

These are the $64,000 (million in today's terms) questions. The problem is that they are so disjointed and broad that it is almost impossible to discuss them.

What does it cost to follow Jesus in a healthy way? Everything.

What didn't the LC members do...? A simplistic answer is "think for themselves."

Who is responsible? Depends on how you are looking at it. It goes from "only Lee and the leadership" to "everyone."

The problem with blaming everyone is that you then presume that everyone should know everything required to make the decision. That presumes that there is no need for anyone to be a teacher and help us along the way.

If you say only Lee and the leadership, then you presume that everyone else is stupid and cannot decide for themselves. You take the position that we not only need teachers, we need people with spiritual power of attorney to tell us everything and we do not even consider whether it might or might not be true.

Obviously, both are true and both are false. Depends on the specific question. Since this is a generic "who is at fault about everything," then it is impossible to answer.

Identify something discrete and we can work on it.

[countmeworthy]

[QUOTE=manna-man;8012]

Today if we look at various ministries and see the hard efforts of their ministries, we will see the potential reward!(Blessing/Growth) We may also see failure and learn from their mistakes as well.

Here's where I struggle in a big way: The 'church' has become a business. (not speaking of the LSM/LC for I did not know the LSM/LC was a business back in the day.) The LC deceived newbies like myself because I did not see it as a business when I was only 21 and a babe in Christ. Today, while I can appreciate a good teaching, many, many pastors/preachers/teachers conduct their church affairs as a business. They train you to become a leader in the church but there are contracts to sign. That is why they emphasize tithes and offerings soo much..to a FAULT.

I don't see the church being conducted as a 'business' in the NT. Am I missing something ? What are your thoughts and this can be answered on a separate new thread. But Lee did pay his co-workers didn't he? And he handpicked elders right ?

Many have failed! Because they/we don't want to get involved/speak up.

They don't want to get involved because they don't know how. They aren't confident about what they see or know. They don't know who to confide in without being ostrasized.

I believe not counting the cost of ministering, was the greatest error the members of the LC made. This error should have been seen by the active Elders in the local assemblies.(and probably was)

Each (little one) also bears some resposibility. For they, like the ones in charge were comfortable with their situation and may have not wanted to rock the boat. I mean of course those who were capable of feeding themselves.

When I got tired of the Lee adulation, I had to leave because how in the world was I going to stand up and express my observation ? But I found a small bunch from my locality who felt like I did but were quiet about it. They moved to a new locality and I tagged along. Once there, everyone exploded with all kinds of stories about Lee and the church. We still loved the Lord and fellowship but all the venting also wiped us out so that before too long, everyone just went their seperate ways. Including me. I felt lost at first but I did not want to go back to the LC as it was. I also had my own set of personal issues that I could not go to with anyone about.

Eventually.....it was just me and the LORD....in the wilderness.
So, a question to all of you.

What does it cost to follow Jesus in healthy way?

Read, study, pray the Word, ask for insight, wisdom, understanding, protection from deception. Fellowship with Christians and learn from them..the good, the bad and the ugly. Hang out with non Christians always being a good example, a witness, someone they would want to hang out with. With God's help, we will learn to balance our lives.

What didn't the LC members do to prevent todays current situation?

They didn't remain true to their individuality. The guys thought that by dressing like Lee in white shirts & black ties, they would be considered 'good brothers.' We all talked the same instead of speaking normal especially when we were at meetings. We prayed in the same tone or tried to anyway instead of praying from our hearts. We wanted to impress the LC not Jesus. (not that we can impress Him anyway.) But the LC, Lee, the life studies, the RcV, the footnotes became numero UNO instead of GOD.

Everyone was too afraid to rock the boat.

Who is responsible?

The leadership. Why ? We would get reprimended if we went against them. For example: As a general rule, the 'brothers' sat with the brothers and the sisters with the sisters at meetings. WHY ?? Oh...so we wouldn't 'lust' after each other ? That we would look 'holier than thou' ? I remember watching newlyweds sit with each right after they got married and after a month, the husband would go sit with the brothers and the wife with the sisters. Sometimes the elders made them.

We wanted to please the church because we thought GOD was there and that's what HE wanted.

We're learning.

[manna-man]

Great post CMW!

I especially liky your point on not expressing individuality!

CMW, when I was speaking about not getting involved. I was speaking about those who saw and knew something was wrong yet did nothing.

Hey everybody!!!! did I ever tell you CMW is my sister!

You are a blessing sis for sure!

Grace to all mankind!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Great post CMW!

I especially liky your point on not expressing individuality!

CMW, when I was speaking about not getting involved. I was speaking about those who saw and knew something was wrong yet did nothing.

Hey everybody!!!! did I ever tell you CMW is my sister!

You are a blessing sis for sure!

Grace to all mankind!

You are tooo, toooooooo sweet manna-man.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Here's where I struggle in a big way: The 'church' has become a business. Today, while I can appreciate a good teaching, many, many pastors/preachers/teachers conduct their church affairs as a business. They train you to become a leader in the church but there are contracts to sign. That is why they emphasize tithes and offerings soo much... to a FAULT. I don't see the church being conducted as a 'business' in the NT. Am I missing something ?

I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. The final straw for us was the altar call (following some sharing on Gen. 50.20), and as some went forward, the minister said there were buckets available to "sow seeds" of $20 and $50.

I do believe one of the corruptive forces at work is the transition from a church to a ministry. This happened in the LC's and that community church we visited. Initially, the ministers served the church acc. to the needs of the flock, but later the church began to exist for the building up of the man's ministry. The church thus becomes a business. It is run like a business. People exist only for the furtherance of the business.

This is why the Bible has so many warnings for leaders. LC leaders failed us miserably. Eventually I had to accept the inevitable conclusion that my LC only existed for the LSM and later for TC's work. Real churches have shepherds that place the flock first. Ministries have workers that place the business first. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which until finances get tight. Then the true colors become evident.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore.

With all the collections taken up fer God, one has to ask, How does Satan do it? I mean, when it comes to donations and collections, Satan gets the tiny chip at the end of the stick. While God gets so many donations and collections that by now He has to be richer than God. For God it's a never ending bottomless supply, while Satan gets the empty bucket.

Apparently, Satan is better at managing very tight budgets. And gets more bang fer the bucks. In fact, as it more than appears, Satan, on a skeleton budget, wins more souls than God, who has a heavenly surplus budget.

Obviously, money isn't the answer...accept for building strong successful businesses...and churches of divine profit.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. The final straw for us was the altar call (following some sharing on Gen. 50.20), and as some went forward, the minister said there were buckets available to "sow seeds" of $20 and $50.

I do believe one of the corruptive forces at work is the transition from a church to a ministry. This happened in the LC's and that community church we visited. Initially, the ministers served the church acc. to the needs of the flock, but later the church began to exist for the building up of the man's ministry. The church thus becomes a business. It is run like a business. People exist only for the furtherance of the business.

This is why the Bible has so many warnings for leaders. LC leaders failed us miserably. Eventually I had to accept the inevitable conclusion that my LC only existed for the LSM and later for TC's work. Real churches have shepherds that place the flock first. Ministries have workers that place the business first. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which until finances get tight. Then the true colors become evident.

Great post Ohio,
Wouldn't it have been better for that pastor to simply let the congregation know what the needs were rather than to push the seed offering? It is biblical to make our needs known for God will meet the need through His people that is if there is no flesh involved.

Peace, and have a good and Godly day!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Great post Ohio,
Wouldn't it have been better for that pastor to simply let the congregation know what the needs were rather than to push the seed offering? It is biblical to make our needs known for God will meet the need through His people that is if there is no flesh involved.

Peace, and have a good and Godly day!

Wouldn't it have been better for that pastor to cut his budget?

All that talk about "seed money" made me think about Paul's word in the same epistle, "we are not like the many, peddling the word of God."

The Bible does say, "let your requests be made known to God." I do believe, for the most part, that churches must learn to operate within a budget that their offerings provide.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I struggle here too. We regularly attended a community church with Pentecostal leanings. After the recession hit, there were endless requests for tithes, offerings, gifts, sowing seeds, etc. Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. The final straw for us was the altar call (following some sharing on Gen. 50.20), and as some went forward, the minister said there were buckets available to "sow seeds" of $20 and $50.

I do believe one of the corruptive forces at work is the transition from a church to a ministry. This happened in the LC's and that community church we visited. Initially, the ministers served the church acc. to the needs of the flock, but later the church began to exist for the building up of the man's ministry. The church thus becomes a business. It is run like a business. People exist only for the furtherance of the business.

This is why the Bible has so many warnings for leaders. LC leaders failed us miserably. Eventually I had to accept the inevitable conclusion that my LC only existed for the LSM and later for TC's work. Real churches have shepherds that place the flock first. Ministries have workers that place the business first. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which until finances get tight. Then the true colors become evident.

Ohio THANK YOU for such a GREAT RESPONSE !! I especially Laughed out Loud at your comment: Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. Oh and at one church, they give a 20 minute sermon on Malachi 3:16 I believe it is...robbing God with your tithes.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Ohio THANK YOU for such a GREAT RESPONSE !! I especially Laughed out Loud at your comment: Eventually, I concluded that I could not afford to be a Christian anymore. Oh and at one church, they give a 20 minute sermon on Malachi 3:16 I believe it is...robbing God with your tithes.

Oh they love those verses in Malachi 3.8-11.

But they never talk about those verses about pastors driving Lexus, living in fancy homes, and taking those frequent "working" vacations.

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

When I got tired of the Lee adulation, I had to leave because how in the world was I going to stand up and express my observation ? But I found a small bunch from my locality who felt like I did but were quiet about it. They moved to a new locality and I tagged along.

Once there, everyone exploded with all kinds of stories about Lee and the church. We still loved the Lord and fellowship but all the venting also wiped us out so that before too long, everyone just went their separate ways. Including me. I felt lost at first but I did not want to go back to the LC as it was. I also had my own set of personal issues that I could not go to with anyone about.

Eventually.....it was just me and the LORD....in the wilderness.

Ending up in the wilderness is a good place. When you are in Babylon you get too cozy, you get anesthetized, mesmerized, hypnotized, and march blindly into the ditch.

At least in the wilderness you know where you are.

But if you've passed thru the cauldron of the LC, you may have a crumb or two to sustain you; moments when the Spirit seemed so real that nothing else was real; moments when the Bible seemed to contain words of life rather than dead letters; moments when the Father was speaking to you thru the person next to you.

So you stagger on, and if a faint flicker remains in your heart you eventually realize that your crumbs are more generous than some nearby, who don't have a clue about this Jesus guy or the Father's love or the Spirit's provision.

So you feed them. You assemble with them and you realize that you have some counsel for them from your crucible of experiences.

Then, and here's an interesting point, you realize how much the Shepherd loved His sheep. The hireling flees from the wolf, but the Good Shepherd lays down His life for His sheep. Jesus knew that one of them would betray Him, but He stuck with His own, nevertheless, literally to the death.

Contrast that to our experience in the LC where we received a "vision" of the optimal organizational structure, and were willing to follow that to the end, but the saints themselves were quite expendable.

In reality, I am beginning to suspect that the "ekklesia" is that poor, pathetic guy next to me, who is seeking Christ, but hardly knows where to turn, and which way is up or down. The "ekklesia-building" occurs when I receive my neighbor in Christ Jesus and it is reciprocated, and we begin to sense the depth of the Shepherd's care for His sheep.

The "cost" was paid in full, by Christ. My "cost" is to say, "Amen. Hallelujah", irrespective of whom, or what, is my immediate environment; and irrespective of how rubble-strewn my past appears, or the meager future that presents itself for consideration. Here, as John put it so well, is the endurance of the saints (Rev. 14:12).

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by aron

Ending up in the wilderness is a good place. When you are in Babylon you get too cozy, you get anesthetized, mesmerized, hypnotized, and march blindly into the ditch.

Amen! ....

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

Ending up in the wilderness is a good place.

I think so too as long as your heart is fixed on Jesus. It is a good place to solely rely on HIM and His Holy Spirit to teach you, guide you and lead you. This is the only way a religious person who is trying to shed the old wine skin can truly grow and be enlightened...little by little.

When you are in Babylon you get too cozy, you get anesthetized, mesmerized, hypnotized, and march blindly into the ditch.

Let me know if you agree with the following assessment: When we got saved, truly saved, understanding the power of the Cleansing Blood in our lives, we believed we were truly set free ! We were bound by sin. Now we were free. But before too long, we became bound again by religion...be it the LC or any other denomination or fellowship group.

So back to square one we go.

At least in the wilderness you know where you are.

Yeppers...but it's also a dangerous place because it is there we are more likely to go back to our former ways, or worst, forgetting the Saving Grace of the Lord Jesus.

But if you've passed thru the cauldron of the LC, you may have a crumb or two to sustain you; moments when the Spirit seemed so real that nothing else was real; moments when the Bible seemed to contain words of life rather than dead letters; moments when the Father was speaking to you thru the person next to you.

Exactly. But let me throw a caveat here. What happened to me was I at times seemed to realize some of the things we were taught in the LC were/are true. OF COURSE some of it is ! We used the Bible not the Quran or a buddhist book ! So, being I wasn't BURNED like many of the former LCrs were, I would ask myself if I ought to return to the LC ! But the few times I went to the meetings in the last few years, the answer was perfectly clear: NO !

So you stagger on, and if a faint flicker remains in your heart you eventually realize that your crumbs are more generous than some nearby, who don't have a clue about this Jesus guy or the Father's love or the Spirit's provision.

This is EXACTLY what sustained me !! Throughout my entire time in the wilderness, I would check the eternal flame to see if it was still burning. It may not have been very bright but it sure was flickering. Thank You JESUS!

So you feed them. You assemble with them and you realize that you have some counsel for them from your crucible of experiences.

We have to..at least for a while so that we can shed the ole' wine skin. Otherwise, as much as we no longer desire to be in the LC, we still have the LC wineskin. Either we move on in Christ, fellowshipping with others unlike us OR we prefer the company of the world that could very well lead us away from Jesus into sin.

In reality, I am beginning to suspect that the "ekklesia" is that poor, pathetic guy next to me, who is seeking Christ, but hardly knows where to turn, and which way is up or down. The "ekklesia-building" occurs when I receive my neighbor in Christ Jesus and it is reciprocated, and we begin to sense the depth of the Shepherd's care for His sheep. .

Oh... have I got a 'testimony' to share with you !! The past few months have wreacked HELL on my mortal body. My body took a turn for the worst, especially the last 2-3 weeks. None of you knew of the excruciating pain I was enduring. I'm not a big girl at all. But this blasted cursed affliction..(the affliction is cursed--- NOT ME) was wreaking havoc to the point I could barely walk. On one occassion I fell trying to get out of bed because my ankles were soo weak and in much pain. I rarely cry but at this point, I did. WHERE IS MY HEALER ? WHERE IS MY DELIVERER? MY SAVIOUR ??

Now, right about this time, my childhood friend who is a 'worldly' Christian tells me God has been telling her to come over and clean my house. She had not been over in a very long time and because I have not been well, my house was a mess. To make it worst, my pets had many accidents and I barely cleaned the carpet.

Last Saturday night, the pain became unbareable and at midnight I called my friend Normie who lives 30 minutes away. I was crying with pain and asked if she could come over with some Ibuprofin. We would decide when she came if I'd go to the hospital.

When she arrived, I told her how embarrassed I was for my house to be this way. What came out of me was the reason I wouldn't ask for help even though she already had heard from God was I feared rejection.

Long story...she was a GOD SENT. She cleaned and scrubbed my house, checking on me every hour to see how I was. While I did not go to the hospital, she was very worried about me.

On Wednesday, we were outside when my next door neighbors came to check up on me. Dan told me if I guzzled down a few beers, I'd be just fine. So my friend says she could use a beer and so he went and got her one.

The entire time she was here, while she prayed and I prayed, she refused to read the Word or listen to any teachings from me or anyone else.

At the end of the 'day'........she proved to be a true blue Christian friend. She heard the Voice of GOD and told me TWICE He told her to come over. She stayed with me the entire week taking good care of me and by Friday, the worst seemed to be behind me. So WHAT she likes to have a beer or 2 now and then !! So what if she does not like going to 'church'. I am not out of the woodworks whatsoever but I can at least walk slowly, not dragging my feet, afraid to fall.

I had to share this experience because for all the 'bible studies', church gatherings...at the end of the day, WHO do you think God is going to reward ?

You bet our GOD is going to reward and bless my friend who took extra good care of me !

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

You bet our GOD is going to reward and bless my friend who took extra good care of me !

Amen I believe it. On line we can only give "virtual" cups of water, tho the encouragement and recognition sometimes does mean so much.

But God will send someone to aid us. God always does.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by aron

Then, and here's an interesting point, you realize how much the Shepherd loved His sheep. The hireling flees from the wolf, but the Good Shepherd lays down His life for His sheep. Jesus knew that one of them would betray Him, but He stuck with His own, nevertheless, literally to the death.

Contrast that to our experience in the LC where we received a "vision" of the optimal organizational structure, and were willing to follow that to the end, but the saints themselves were quite expendable.

In reality, I am beginning to suspect that the "ekklesia" is that poor, pathetic guy next to me, who is seeking Christ, but hardly knows where to turn, and which way is up or down. The "ekklesia-building" occurs when I receive my neighbor in Christ Jesus and it is reciprocated, and we begin to sense the depth of the Shepherd's care for His sheep.

I just recently saw clearly that 1 Cor. 13 comes between chapters 12 and 14.

The "Love Chapter" is all about how we meet.

Marriage is nowhere mentioned in that chapter and teaching it as if it expresses a romantic notion Paul had about marriage while ignoring the actual context is a subtle twisting that may be a bad idea. (Chapter 14 indicates Paul had other ideas about marriage, actually.)

Paul says to stop being childish and to start meeting in love.

[aron]

Originally Posted by YP0534

I just recently saw clearly that 1 Cor. 13 comes between chapters 12 and 14.

The "Love Chapter" is all about how we meet.

Paul says to stop being childish and to start meeting in love.

I recently ran into a christian friend, and he asked me about something, and I sensed an opportunity to move to a "high theme" that I have been recently impressed with.

So I made some preparatory remarks; because he is fairly constituted I felt that I could give him a "double whammy" of a segue into my topic of choice.

But he challenged me on one of my preliminary points, and we got sidetracked into his interest. He kept saying, "Wow, that's amazing; I never saw that before". At one point I just shoehorned my "high peak theme" into the conversation, and he ignored it and went back to how amazing my opening remarks were to him.

At that point I remembered the (in)famous remark of Nee about playing piano to cows, and I had a strong inner response that maybe I was the cow, trying to play piano. Maybe the Holy Spirit wanted him to see something besides my "grand theme".

So I dropped my burden, and his new interest became our theme. He became, for a while, the featured speaker, and I dropped into a supporting role. And a couple of my supporting points pleased us both immensely. They were delivered, impromptu, by my "intuition", or a random search of my memory banks, or the Holy Spirit Himself, who knows?

Anyway, we both became very pleased, and satisfied with the conversation, and he and I both parted like Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch: each rejoicing in his good fortune at partaking for a moment of the glorious corporate flow.

I cannot impose the Spirit's speaking into another's heart. I can only speak, and testify, and witness of the glorious 'parousia'. It is enough. Jesus meets each, right where they are. Why should I do otherwise? We are already "meeting on the proper ground".

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

Ending up in the wilderness is a good place. When you are in Babylon you get too cozy, you get anesthetized, mesmerized, hypnotized, and march blindly into the ditch.

At least in the wilderness you know where you are.

I'm not sure that we speak very clearly concerning Babylon. Besides the general statement in Revelation concerning "Babylon the Great," Babylon was not a choice. It was exile. They were taken to Babylon. They did not sell their chalet in Bethlehem and load the Mayflower moving van and decide that Babylon seemed like a good place to go. No. God allowed the Babylonians to take the Israelites captive and take them away.

The way we speak about Babylon, it is somewhere we choose to be. A place of our own making.

Now it is true that not all went back to Jerusalem when the first edict for their release came. But those that stayed behind were not spoken of as fallen Jews. In fact, unless I remember my stories incorrectly, at least one of the significant leaders was willfully serving the King of Babylon/Persia when he came to know that the ones that did go back were having trouble. A righteous man living almost as part of the household of a pagan king was called to get the "remnant" back on track. No chastisement for not having already gone back. No quarantine to make sure he was going to go along with things in Jerusalem.

And at least partly the result of the Jews that did not go back from the various captivities, there were Jews all over the known world ready for Philip, Peter, Paul, John, and others to speak to throughout Asia and even into Europe as the church spread.

So how is it that we have created a metaphorical Babylon that is Christian, not pagan, and is a choice to join rather than punishment? Lee said it. And it was so. (And there was much rejoicing — and popcorn testimonies.)

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Lee said it. And it was so. (And there was much rejoicing — and popcorn testimonies.)

Popcorn testimonies ! Those were the days !

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

not sure that we speak very clearly concerning Babylon. Besides the general statement in Revelation concerning "Babylon the Great," Babylon was not a choice. It was exile. They were taken to Babylon. They did not sell their chalet in Bethlehem and load the Mayflower moving van and decide that Babylon seemed like a good place to go. No. God allowed the Babylonians to take the Israelites captive and take them away.

I was speaking regarding the general statement in Revelation concerning "Babylon the Great". It seemed connected to the less-than-sanguine reviews 5 of the 7 churches in Asia received, earlier in the same book (Revelation), which seemed related to the gospels' less-than-sanguine reviews the religious die-hards of Israel received "you brood of vipers...whitewashed tombs, etc", which seemed like a spiritual captivity.

But I didn't make all my assumptions explicit, so I apologize for tossing out my hermeneutical nuggets so lightly. Obviously everything is today's opinion, and will be subject to revision as more information becomes available. I should, by rights, include such disclaimers with every pronouncement from my keyboard (I have a penchant for grandiose statements, which seem to me to make good copy).

Originally Posted by OBW

The way we speak about Babylon, it is somewhere we choose to be. A place of our own making.

I wasn't thinking about "choice" vs. "captivity". The whole free-will thing is much too mysterious for me to weigh in on. Sorry if my discussions seem to indicate strong leanings either way.

Originally Posted by OBW

Now it is true that not all went back to Jerusalem when the first edict for their release came. But those that stayed behind were not spoken of as fallen Jews. In fact, unless I remember my stories incorrectly, at least one of the significant leaders was willfully serving the King of Babylon/Persia when he came to know that the ones that did go back were having trouble. A righteous man living almost as part of the household of a pagan king was called to get the "remnant" back on track. No chastisement for not having already gone back. No quarantine to make sure he was going to go along with things in Jerusalem.

I guess, thinking aloud here, that when I use the word "Babylon" I am thinking of being religious. You can be in "Babylonian" in any group, LC included. But some are not, and might be called "overcoming". Who is "Babylonian" and who is "overcomer" is going to be revealed, perhaps by fire, and so I am not comfortable making assessments before the time.

CMW said she found herself in the wilderness. I was inferring that preceding that she was in Babylon. Again, all my assumptions were loaded into the statement, and without the needed disclaimers. Someday I will learn how to be both concise and readable and also "safe", or "well-grounded". Still working on that one.

Originally Posted by OBW

And at least partly the result of the Jews that did not go back from the various captivities, there were Jews all over the known world ready for Philip, Peter, Paul, John, and others to speak to throughout Asia and even into Europe as the church spread.

Also, the whole idea of "come out of her, my people" is not necessarily to bodily leave Assembly A, B, or C. But rather come out of your tired formalism, your empty traditions, your sanctimonious know-it-all truths, your judgmentalism, your kow-towing to supposed "authorities" who are really empty suits, your vain dogmas which you prop up with swords and staves and bluster, etc.

Those, again, are personal decisions made by individuals who once were in "Egypt", went into "the Good Land", but got seduced/captivated/distracted into an empty and sterile outward expression, minus the key ingredient, who is God.

So I was lumping CMW's testimony, and her "finding herself in the wilderness" to coming out of Babylon and having lost her original bearings on the good land.

But all of that was poetic license on my part, and should, by rights, have come with as much disclaimers as a used-car does.

[aron]

Ohio,

seems like that fellowship has a standing litmus test regarding tongues, with your friend the pastor acting as the gatekeeper. That test is probably a trojan horse for other control mechanisms, just as the LC litmus test of "the ground of oneness" became the facilitator of "the ministry" to reign.

So, what to say? A: it's a crying shame when christians can't greet one another in Christ, and leave it at that. Sorry you have to run into such.

B: Praise the Lord, and move on. Like I said, I suppose there are lots of other things lurking behind the "tongues" issue, and it's promulgator, that you met.

But I would warrant that if you are a believer on the earth, there is fellowship waiting for you. The Lord has prepared it for you. He is rich to all who call on His name.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Ohio,

seems like that fellowship has a standing litmus test regarding tongues, with your friend the pastor acting as the gatekeeper. That test is probably a trojan horse for other control mechanisms, just as the LC litmus test of "the ground of oneness" became the facilitator of "the ministry" to reign.

So, what to say? A: it's a crying shame when christians can't greet one another in Christ, and leave it at that. Sorry you have to run into such.

B: Praise the Lord, and move on. Like I said, I suppose there are lots of other things lurking behind the "tongues" issue, and it's promulgator, that you met.

But I would warrant that if you are a believer on the earth, there is fellowship waiting for you. The Lord has prepared it for you. He is rich to all who call on His name.

Thanks Aron.

You are right about the litmus tests. I had hoped that I wouldn't have to face these, but during the last visit I heard distant rumblings of a second litmus test -- baptism.

The sad thing is that the spiel on tongues came out of no where. I'm the last person who needs to hear that. I don't know what got him going. Until then our fellowship was so sweet. We had even gone to a pig roast at a family's home, and made a lot of friends.

Now I feel I may be roasted next. My wife doesn't want to go back.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Now I feel I may be roasted next. My wife doesn't want to go back.

All I can say is, "think small". Then, when the inevitable roasting occurs, the bonfire will also be small.

Let me put it another way. We are in enemy territory. The world, as we know, is under the evil one. When we christians attempt to use conventional means to address God's adversary, we end up looking like the U.S. in Afghanistan. Or worse.

Jesus, like David before Him, was a brilliant unconventional, "guerilla" warrior. David eventually slipped, numbering his troops and admiring Bathsheba from his balcony. Jesus never slipped.

That's why I said going in the front door for Pastor Bob and company to vet you may not be the way for you to go.

Just thinking aloud here. I really don't know anything at all.

[aron]

Ohio,

Further marginally useful thoughts and experiences:

Rather than going back into church fellowship through the front door on Suday morning at 10 am and running the gauntlet of Pastor Bob and his disciples and their pet doctrines, which I was not in the mood for after the LCs, I started small and had fellowship with believers I met on the way. I was determined to "amen" as much as possible every christian I ran across.

So I started putting my "christ" out there, front and center, and gradually over time I began to build a nice little support network. I ran into organizational feelers along the way: "What church do you go to?"; and "Well, my pastor says..." but by and large I found people receptive to just plain old faith.

So eventually I ran up into organized christianity in various forms, and on various levels, from formal to informal, but it was within the context of existant, respectful, mutually worthwhile relationships based on faith in Jesus Christ. So I mostly avoided the "quenching of the spirit" kind of experiences you seem to be describing.

The Lord always provides a way for His sheep.

Hello everyone. This is just a test post.

I AM: Jesus upset his generation especially when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM," John 8:58. Note also his claim to be Jehovah in such phrases as "I AM the Light of the world," "the bread of life," living water," "the Resurrection and the Life," "the Way, Truth and the Life"

Amd he is!

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I AM: Jesus upset his generation especially when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM," John 8:58. Note also his claim to be Jehovah in such phrases as "I AM the Light of the world," "the bread of life," living water," "the Resurrection and the Life," "the Way, Truth and the Life"

Amd he is!

Amen! Unregistered Guest.