106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

[james73]

After reading just the first few pages of the LSM Life Study of Ephesians, the phrase "Not many Christians know" jumped out at me again and again. I found this quite distasteful (and fueling the fire of the arrogance of my home group) so I did a little research project...

Here, for your viewing pleasure, are "106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)", according to seven Life Studies (Genesis, Exodus, Ephesians, Hebrews, 1 Corinthians, Colossians & Revelation).

Enjoy - this is not intended for apologetic or theological discussion, simply to show Lee's arrogant writing style "enlarged ad absurdum"

1. “That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.
2. A number of Bible teachers have pointed out that the altar typifies the cross and that the sacrifices typify Christ. However, not many teachers have gone on to find out how Christ is typified by other items in chapters twenty-one through twenty-three of Exodus.
3. Above us there is the sphere ruled by Satan, the ruler of the authority of the air. Not many Christians have an adequate understanding of this evil power in the air.
4. After they were baptized they could say, “Once we were on the other side of the river, but now we are on this side.” not many have had this understanding of baptism.
5. All Christians are familiar with the name Christ, but not many understand the term the mystery of God.
6. All Christians know that Christ has ascended into heaven and that He is in heaven today. However, not many are familiar with the scene in heaven after Christ's ascension.
7. All Christians know that God has redeemed us, but not many realize that He has also qualified us to partake of Christ as the portion of the saints.
8. All Christians realize that Christ was born through incarnation, but not many regard His resurrection also as a birth.
9. All Christians think that a priest is one who serves God, but not many Christians know that, ultimately, a priest is one who ministers God to man.
10. Although all genuine Christians recognize that Christ is the Son of God, not many have an adequate realization that He is the embodiment of God.
11. Although every Christian knows that God is the mighty One on the throne, not many Christians realize that God today needs a temple, a church, a building, for His expression.
12. Although many are familiar with Joel's prophecy regarding the Holy Spirit, not many have paid attention to the fact that receiving the outpoured Holy Spirit requires our calling on the name of the Lord.
13. Although many Christians pay attention to gifts, not many concentrate on transformation
14. Although many Christians realize that Christ is our High Priest, not many know what this truly means.
15. Although many Christians talk about substitution, about Christ's having died in our place, not many realize the matter of union.
16. Although many Christians understand the word of grace (Acts 14:3; 20:32), the word of life (Phil. 2:16), and even the good word of God (Heb. 6:5), not many know what the word of righteousness is.
17. Although many Jews and Seventh-Day Adventists keep the Sabbath, not many know the true significance of keeping a day unto the Lord.
18. Although the Lord often spoke as a Bridegroom conversing with His bride, not many Christians have realized this aspect of His word.
19. Although there are millions of Christians in this country, not many have paid adequate attention to Christ in us, the hope of glory.
20. Although there is much talk about the Body, not many have a proper understanding of the Body. Furthermore, Christians rarely even speak of the one new man.
21. Among the millions of today's Christians, the genuinely redeemed and saved people, not many enjoy the experience of having become God's habitation.
22. As far as the experience of the tabernacle is concerned, the writings and messages of the various Christian teachers mainly speak of the altar. But once we go on from the altar to the Holy Place, we find that not many have touched the real experiences there.
23. As we have seen, the book of Hebrews makes a great turn at 7:1. Not many readers of Hebrews have seen this point clearly, but by God's mercy and grace He has shown us this turn.
24. Because of shallow, inadequate teaching, not many Christians realize that the redemption of Christ rests upon the power of the eternal Spirit.
25. Because this revelation is so high and because Paul's writing is complicated, not many Christians have a proper understanding of this book.
26. Before we consider the matter of putting off the old man and putting on the new man, the church (4:22-24), we need to see that the abolishing of the ordinances for the creation of the new man is part of the gospel. Not many Christians realize that this matter must be proclaimed as part of the gospel.
27. But have you ever asked the Lord to forgive you for not living by Christ? not many Christians have prayed in this way: “Lord, forgive me for not taking You as my life today.
28. But what about the second beginning, the beginning related to the building of God's dwelling place? It is a fact that not many Christians realize the need to have this second beginning.
29. By staying in the homes of many Christians in the course of my travels, I have learned that the appetite of many believers is still for the things of Egypt. Not many have a genuine hunger and thirst for Christ.
30. During the past centuries, a great many Christians have sought for the overcoming of sin. However, not many of them ever succeeded in this matter because they were seeking something that is on the second floor while they were on the ground floor.
31. Even at present there are thousands, even millions, of Christians, but not many are strong.
32. Few Christians have ever fought for the revelation of God, and not many have fought for the revelation of Christ.
33. Have you ever heard a message on Christ offering Himself to God by and through the eternal Spirit? Christians do not ordinarily speak this way, for not many have this knowledge. Because they do not have the knowledge, they do not use the language of Hebrews 9:14. Nevertheless, such a word is found in Hebrews 9:14.
34. He mingled divinity and humanity, humanity and divinity, into one. This is our Lord Jesus Christ. Not many Christians have this concept of the Lord Jesus.
35. However, not many believers realize that the flesh is so evil.
36. However, not many Christian teachers realize that what is revealed in Romans in the way of a sketch is fully illustrated in 1 Corinthians.
37. However, not many Christians have observed that in His conversation with Nicodemus the Lord pointed that gentleman to the serpent (John 3:14).
38. However, not many Christians realize that they are kings by birth.
39. However, not many Christians today take care of God's house. Most are primarily concerned about their own needs, and the pillar they set up is only a testimony of God's care.
40. However, not many people, including Christians, know the significance of man's first fall.
41. However, not many understand the crossing of the river Jordan as having a typological significance.
42. In 5:26 and 29 there are four crucial words: sanctify, cleanse, nourish, and cherish. Because the enemy has veiled these matters, not many Christians have a clear understanding of their significance.
43. In Genesis 35 we see a crucial and radical turn. However, not many children of God appreciate this. They read this chapter again and again without recognizing the radical turn contained in it.
44. In Luke 17, the Lord used Lot's wife as a warning example for His disciples. However, not many Christians today live under this warning.
45. In most Christian groups there is very little ministry of Christ as life.
46. In the eyes of God, the ordinances, rituals, and ceremonies of the law have been crucified on the cross. However, not many Christians realize this.
47. In the same principle, if we would get out of the world, we must get into the wilderness. However, not many Christians have been brought into the wilderness.
48. In their experience not many Christians have come to the mountain. any of us can testify that before we came into the church life, we were not at the mountain, the place of revelation.
49. In their experience, not many Christians stay in the house after their conversion.
50. In their reading of the book of Revelation not many Christians have paid their full attention to the revelation of Christ contained in it.
51. Jacob is the prototype in the Bible. Romans 9 tells us this. But throughout the generations not many Christians have seen this, thinking that the chapters dealing with Jacob's history are merely interesting stories. Few Christians view these chapters as the record of the model of a transformed life.
52. Many Christians have sung this hymn, but not many praise their Savior all the day long.
53. Many Christians know that Christ resurrected, ascended, and has been crowned with honor and glory, but not many know that after Christ's ascension, enthronement, and glorification He also received gifts.
54. Many Christians know that during the years of wandering in the wilderness, the children of Israel ate manna. But not many of them know in a thorough and adequate way the significance of the manna in Exodus 16.
55. Many Christians know that on the cross Christ dealt with sin, the flesh, the self, the old man, the world, and the Devil. But not many also realize that on the cross Christ dealt with the ordinances.
56. Many Christians only experience God as their individual God. Not many have the experience of God as the God of the house of God.
57. Many Christians realize that Peter and John were disciples and apostles, but not many realize that they were also pillars.
58. Most believers know that Christ is the heavenly manna; however, not many know how to eat Him.
59. Most Christians have only the limited experience of Christ as their Redeemer. Not many have the experience of Christ as their life.
60. Most Christians have the book of Revelation, but not many have the unsealed scroll, because they do not realize that Revelation is the unsealed scroll.
61. Most Christians realize only that they need Christ as their substitute for redemption. Not many realize that in order to be a living sacrifice to satisfy God, they also need Christ as their substitute in sanctification.
62. Nearly all Christians have seen the eternal life in John 3:16, but not many have seen the serpent in John 3:14.
63. Not many Christian preachers have given messages concerning the inward aspect of Christ's sufferings on the cross.
64. Not many Christians are able to take in God's Word in a proper way or utter it in a strong way.
65. Not many Christians are willing to pay the price to follow the Lord strictly, because they do not want to suffer in their soul; they want to enjoy their life today, desiring luxurious cars, large houses, and many worldly things. They are unwilling to lose their soul.
66. Not many Christians have realized the full significance of the budding rod.
67. Not many Christians have seen that Christ is the place of propitiation.
68. Not many Christians have seen that God's intention is to work Himself into us.
69. Not many Christians have seen that the renewing of the new man depends on our seeking the things which are above.
70. Not many Christians know the goal of God's calling
71. Not many Christians know the two aspects of Christ's priesthood.
72. Not many Christians know what the ministry of the stewardship is.
73. Not many Christians realize that concerning both the giving of the law and the function of the law, there are two aspects, the “day” aspect and the “night” aspect.
74. Not many Christians realize that even their natural goodness is rejected by God.
75. Not many Christians regard the lack of prayer as sin.
76. Not many Christians regard the Lord's coming as a warning.
77. Not many Christians regard themselves as stewards.
78. Not many Christians see God's intention in His salvation. To them, salvation consists only in being delivered from hell.
79. Not many Christians throughout the centuries have been able to get fully into the book of Colossians.
80. Not many Christians today pay attention to the growth in life.
81. Not many know the real meaning of the word “blessing.” Many Christians simply have not seen the blessings with which the church has been blessed
82. Not many ministers or workers in today's Christianity carry out the stewardship of God.
83. Not many of today's Christians realize what genuine growth is.
84. Not many readers of Exodus 1 and 2 have seen the underlying theme that links these chapters.
85. Not many readers of Exodus have given adequate attention to chapter sixteen.
86. Not many readers of this book have seen that the reconstitution of God's people is implied in chapter sixteen.
87. Of the many genuine believers in Christ who have drunk of the living water, not many experience the flowing of this water.
88. On the one hand, the church is constituted of God; on the other hand, the church is expressed in a particular locality. Not many Christian teachers have seen these two aspects of the church.
89. Our believing in Christ is related to both life and authority. Not many Christians, however, realize that they must believe in the Lord for authority as well as for life.
90. Out of the tens of millions of Christians in the United States, not many will be overcomers.
91. So, the number eight signifies resurrection. In this new living, the people were in resurrection. Whatever they did was in resurrection. Not many Christians realize the true significance of the type in this portion of the Word.
92. Some Christians may cause people to rest and even be refreshed; however, not many can supply others with spiritual food.
93. That He sends the Spirit, who is just Himself, that He might abide in us and that we might abide in Him; and that Christ is living, moving, and working in our spirit, even transforming our very being that we might be His expression. Although this matter is found again and again in the New Testament, not many Christians pay attention to it.
94. The curse came in through Adam's fall (Gen. 3:17) and was dealt with by Christ's redemption (Gal. 3:13). Since in the new heaven and new earth there will be no more fall, there will no longer be any curse. Not many Christians understand all that the curse includes.
95. The Lord Jesus is the real manna. In John 6 He indicates that we should seek Him and eat Him. However, not many Christians realize the need for a change of diet.
96. The sealing of the Spirit must saturate our mind. Not many Christians have seen that the sealing is still going on, that it is not once for all.
97. The Spirit is speaking to the churches, not to any religion, denomination, or group of seeking Christians. This is the reason that not many Christians can hear the speaking of the Spirit.
98. The term “fullness” has been misused, misunderstood, and misapplied by today’s Christians. Thus, when Christians speak of the fullness of Christ, they think it means the riches of Christ. However, although many Christians speak of the fullness of the Holy Spirit or the fullness of God, not many speak of the fullness of Christ.
99. The words redemption and redeemed are commonly used by Christians. However, not many believers realize adequately that in the sight of God redemption includes three matters. First, it includes (blah……)
100. Their names will be in the book of life at that time, but the names of many others will not be there. Because not many Christians have seen this vision, they cannot understand the verses concerning this matter.
101. These two matters, blessing and dwelling, are found in the New Testament Epistles. Probably not many Christians have paid attention to these matters in the Epistles.
102. Today many Christians know only to pray this kind of shallow prayer. They know only to pray on the basis of the blood of Christ shed on the cross. Not many believers know how to pray the kind of prayer that is offered at the incense altar.
103. Today, not many Christians care for the inward experience. Most Christians care for the outward experiences. The things that are taught among Christians today mostly go as far as the end of Genesis 14.
104. We have been selected and called for God's purpose (Rom. 9:11). Not many Christians know what this purpose is.
105. We have seen that many crucial seeds of the truth are sown in the book of Genesis. The house of God, Bethel, is one of these seeds. However, not many Christians know what the experience of the house of God is.
106. We must admit that not many Christians, even among us, have entered in a complete way into the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ.

[aron]

Witness Lee knew not to boast too much about how special his ministry was, as that would not look very humble (though sometimes he was compelled to do so, a la Paul in 2 Cor. 12). But what he did an awful lot of was to tell his audience how poverty-stricken everybody else was, by comparison.

It is a zero-sum proposition: if I continually declare how bankrupt everybody else is, then my own stock will rise. Politicians use this tactic as well: they don't say, "Vote for me, I'm a nice, hard-working guy" as much as, "My opponent is a low-life dirt bag." You get the picture, of who's got it and who don't.

Once this humble minister of God left the scene, however, his followers had no compunctions touting "the rich ministry of Witness Lee." Google that phrase and see how many hits you get. All the local church websites were saying this at one point.

[countmeworthy]

I did not find anything wrong over all with the list..pertaining to Christ. I did not read them all I admit but will. I wanted to respond as I may not be back for awhile.

What I realized from the list is the LCrs do not follow that list themselves!!! Their "great high priest" is WL. I am sure there is not one meeting or fellowship home gathering Lee or his ministry is not mentioned.

How sad.

Here is a quick testimony of mine: When I have been down and out I have prayed this prayer: " Lord Jesus. You are my/our Great High Priest. You are the real King Melchesidech (sp?) will You pray for me? As my Intercessor will You intercede for me, please? I do not have the words to pray. Thank You Lord Jesus for listening to the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart. To You be all Praise and Glory and Honor because You alone are WORTHY!"


Blessings and Shalom all,

Carol G

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Once this humble minister of God left the scene, however, his followers had no compunctions touting "the rich ministry of Witness Lee." Google that phrase and see how many hits you get. All the local church websites were saying this at one point.

That's not true.

They didn't wait until he left the scene.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

Witness Lee knew not to boast too much about how special his ministry was, as that would not look very humble (though sometimes he was compelled to do so, a la Paul in 2 Cor. 12). But what he did an awful lot of was to tell his audience how poverty-stricken everybody else was, by comparison.

Once this humble minister of God left the scene, ....

Really Aron? Lee humble??
He must have been humble wayyyyy before my time in the LC!!

By mid '75, having been in the LC 6 months, I received "the vision" of the "true church"...the LC. He used a subtle technique of boasting. But by boasting about "God's economy", he drew attention to himself and he knew it. He told us about poor, poor Christianity. He explained the Word as he saw fit. Grant it, he was correct in many respects. But as people began to revere and adulate him, he did not put a stop to it. No one questioned his new version of the bible. Most LCrs today have put their old bibles on dusty filled bookshelves.

He was also not approachable except by his inner circle. How humble is that? at the "trainings", the saints were often afraid of being called to the stage. He often embarrassed and humiliated people

The women were never on equal footage with the men.
Perhaps it has been carried over to this forum as very few women post.

Anyway, How blessed we are to approach the Throne of Love and Grace with a true heart in full assurance of Faith. Without fear of having Communion and fellowship with our Heavenly Father, by the Power of the Word and the Holy Spirit.

Blessings and Joy Aron!!!

Carol

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

The women were never on equal footage with the men.
Perhaps it has been carried over to this forum as very few women post.

I suspect it is because men are more "ideas" and women are more "feelings", and this forum is pretty much all the former. Forgive me for my broad generalization, which is of course full of exceptions to the rule. Just sharing my observations.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Anyway, How blessed we are to approach the Throne of Love and Grace with a true heart in full assurance of Faith. Without fear of having Communion and fellowship with our Heavenly Father, by the Power of the Word and the Holy Spirit.

Blessings and Joy Aron!!!

Carol

Mucho blessings back to you, sister cmw, straight from the throne of the Heavenly Father Himself. He loves you that much!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by james73

After reading just the first few pages of the LSM Life Study of Ephesians, the phrase "Not many Christians know" jumped out at me again and again. I found this quite distasteful (and fueling the fire of the arrogance of my home group) so I did a little research project...

Is he going to have to account for this at the judgment seat of Christ? Is the Lord going to call witness after witness to refute how many Christians taught and did what?

James 3:1 "Be not many teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive greater judgment."

[OBW]

Knowing that I will hear from some about "the full knowledge of God" and some other similar verses, the thing about this list that stands out to me is the burning desire of too many people to know a lot of stuff that will not add one bit to their spiritual stature or righteousness, and won't get them even one "star" in their "crown." (No, not one. No, not one.)

It is obvious that I do not despise knowledge. But I also accept that some kinds of knowledge are not for everybody. For example, I know little or nothing of quantum physics, string theory, Greek philosophy, archeology, calculus, electrical engineering, oil painting (or any painting that is not one color on walls or furniture), and many more. But ask me about international tax, and while I do not know everything, I know a lot.

I'm not sure that having the knowledge that "the redemption of Christ rests upon the power of the eternal Spirit" is something tremendously important. It is very true. But whether or not I know it does not improve my condition.

Reminds of a time at a family reunion when someone suggested that if we improve our lexicon, our experience of Christ will be better. I guffawed openly at that one.

(And I note that such a "lexicon" approach to scripture is probably the reason that most arguments in favor in inerrancy of scripture seem so empty. No matter how many mathematical patterns turn out to look the same up close or far away, the Word of God is not a collection of sayings, but a narrative. It is not a collection of jam-packed words, but descriptive accounts — even Paul's writings.)

I'm not suggesting just remaining totally ignorant of things. But even many of the spiritual things that Paul wrote about were not provided to think about, study, and get really knowledgeable concerning. They were typically existing facts that he provided as the reasons that the audience should act of behave in a different manner. He didn't say to study these premises well and you will become better. He said "this is true, therefore you should do . . . . [whatever]." He didn't say to become crucified with Christ. It doesn't say "you should be crucified with Christ." it says "I am crucified with Christ."

I did note that #16 "Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is" could be argued against the author himself (Lee). After all that we know about DayStar, the LSM bullying of the churches, and the lies that comprise The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, it would seem that Lee did not know what righteousness is. How could he then know that a "word of righteousness" is?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I did note that #16 "Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is" could be argued against the author himself (Lee). After all that we know about DayStar, the LSM bullying of the churches, and the lies that comprise The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, it would seem that Lee did not know what righteousness is. How could he then know that a "word of righteousness" is?

How about #1

“That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.

Was WL involved in "the wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error"? Surely he had doctrines that damaged the Body of Christ.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How about #1

“That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.

Was WL involved in "the wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error"? Surely he had doctrines that damaged the Body of Christ.

Now there's an understatement.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How about #1

“That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.

Was WL involved in "the wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error"? Surely he had doctrines that damaged the Body of Christ.

There is no better description of all the "moves, flows, and ways" which steadily proceeded out of Taipei and Anaheim over the years than Paul's own words in Ephesians ch. 4. I remember how many times today's "new way" became tomorrow's "old way." Never was this so evident than back in the mid- to late-80's during the time of the infamous "new way." That time was so damaging to the body of Christ.

Those saints who had "connections" in Taiwan would constantly inform us that our "new way" had already become the "old way" because Brother Lee had "moved on." After all, Lee was only "experimenting" in his FTTT "laboratory." The local church would get our latest "new way" either from Cleveland or from a returning local brother, but there was always a saint who would get the newer "new way" via phone call. That one week "lag" made a world of difference as to whether we were "up-to-date" or not with the Lord's "current" move.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There is no better description of all the "moves, flows, and ways" which steadily proceeded out of Taipei and Anaheim over the years than Paul's own words in Ephesians ch. 4. I remember how many times today's "new way" became tomorrow's "old way." Never was this so evident than back in the mid- to late-80's during the time of the infamous "new way." That time was so damaging to the body of Christ.

Those saints who had "connections" in Taiwan would constantly inform us that our "new way" had already become the "old way" because Brother Lee had "moved on." After all, Lee was only "experimenting" in his FTTT "laboratory." The local church would get our latest "new way" either from Cleveland or from a returning local brother, but there was always a saint who would get the newer "new way" via phone call. That one week "lag" made a world of difference as to whether we were "up-to-date" or not with the Lord's "current" move.

So then, you agree with WL that not many Christians had paid adequate attention, the LRC proves his point. The insight of a scam artist.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

I did note that #16 "Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is" could be argued against the author himself (Lee). After all that we know about DayStar, the LSM bullying of the churches, and the lies that comprise The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, it would seem that Lee did not know what righteousness is. How could he then know that a "word of righteousness" is?

Good point. As Forrest Gump might have put it, "Righteous is as righteous does."

One of the most profound quotes I ever read, from the standpoint of viscerally impacting my central nervous system, was from the first epistle of Paul to the Corinthians. Paul was at this point covering different foods, and then he suddenly said, "We all have knowledge. Knowledge means nothing."

I was blown away, because it was so true. I am (relatively) intelligent, educated, and opinionated, and God was telling me through Paul that all my so-called 'knowledge' was just vapor before Him; just cobwebs and dust. It really shocked me. And it was so incredibly true. It was amazingly profound.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

As Forrest Gump might have put it, "Righteous is as righteous does."

One of the most profound quotes I ever read... was from the first epistle of Paul to the Corinthians. Paul was at this point covering different foods, and then he suddenly said, "We all have knowledge. Knowledge means nothing."

I was reading an essay from Nicolai Berdyaev, a Russian Christian intellectual (1874-1948). He was discussing the concept of "orthodoxy", not in the organizational, Greek/Syrian/Russian Orthodox way as much as in the "orthodox" tradition of following those who came before you, i.e. following the Christ.

Here is a quote I wanted to share.

Orthodoxy is first of all, an orthodoxy of life and not an orthodoxy of indoctrination. For it, heretics are not so much those who confess a false doctrine but those who have a false spiritual life and go along a false spiritual path. Orthodoxy is before all else, not a doctrine, not an external organization, not an external norm of behavior but a spiritual life, a spiritual experience and a spiritual path. It sees the substance of Christianity in internal spiritual activity. Orthodoxy is less the normative form of Christianity (in the sense of a normative-rational logic and moral law) but is rather its more spiritual form.

Knowledge is not so much what we say as what we do. I know that terms such as "spiritual path" may not give us a comfortable yardstick, but it still touches Paul's idea in 1 Corinthians, that our doctrinal placards, however scrupulously presented, really won't support us in the end. In the end, it's about how we have lived. Not what we declared at Tuesday night prayer meeting, but how we lived, every moment of each day.

[aron]

I remember being told that we were not supposed to see anything wrong with the church. We were told the story of Balaam who tried to curse Israel but God told Balaam that Israel was beautiful in His eyes. We also should have such a view of the church, was the refrain. No problems in the church. Nothing wrong here. See no evil, speak no evil. Being "negative" was the mark that showed you were poisoned by Satan, etc.

So why was Lee able to consistently bash "poor christianity"? It is like he was talking out both sides of his mouth. On the one hand he told us that we should see nothing wrong with the church, and if we did point out anything wrong, it merely demonstrated our own darkness. On the other hand he continually said damning things about the Christian church, of which his beloved "recovery" was supposedly the standard-bearing emblem.

And if he was in a really bad mood, he would even bash the "low condition" of the Lord's recovery. The present situation was forcing him to be "frank" with us, he would say. He would tell us we were stagnant, dormant, lifeless, etc. But God forbid if anyone else tried to be "frank". They would be hustled out the door.

So if Lee said it he was being honest. If someone else said it they were being negative. Once you understood the ground rules of the recovery, you were fine. Anyone who "couldn't get it", i.e. couldn't stomach the hypocrisy, got pointed toward the exit sign.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by aron

I was reading an essay from Nicolai Berdyaev, a Russian Christian intellectual (1874-1948). He was discussing the concept of "orthodoxy", not in the organizational, Greek/Syrian/Russian Orthodox way as much as in the "orthodox" tradition of following those who came before you, i.e. following the Christ.

Here is a quote I wanted to share.

Orthodoxy is first of all, an orthodoxy of life and not an orthodoxy of indoctrination. For it, heretics are not so much those who confess a false doctrine but those who have a false spiritual life and go along a false spiritual path. Orthodoxy is before all else, not a doctrine, not an external organization, not an external norm of behavior but a spiritual life, a spiritual experience and a spiritual path. It sees the substance of Christianity in internal spiritual activity. Orthodoxy is less the normative form of Christianity (in the sense of a normative-rational logic and moral law) but is rather its more spiritual form.

Knowledge is not so much what we say as what we do. I know that terms such as "spiritual path" may not give us a comfortable yardstick, but it still touches Paul's idea in 1 Corinthians, that our doctrinal placards, however scrupulously presented, really won't support us in the end. In the end, it's about how we have lived. Not what we declared at Tuesday night prayer meeting, but how we lived, every moment of each day.

You nailed it, brother Aron.

As for Nikolai Berdyaev, I have always liked reading his books. He had a sharp mind and could flesh out his ideas in a vibrant, fresh, and alive way.

Pure truth, to paraphrase Berdyaev, could burst the Local Church apart.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Knowing that I will hear from some about "the full knowledge of God" and some other similar verses, the thing about this list that stands out to me is the burning desire of too many people to know a lot of stuff that will not add one bit to their spiritual stature or righteousness, and won't get them even one "star" in their "crown." (No, not one. No, not one.)

It is obvious that I do not despise knowledge. But I also accept that some kinds of knowledge are not for everybody. For example, I know little or nothing of quantum physics, string theory, Greek philosophy, archeology, calculus, electrical engineering, oil painting (or any painting that is not one color on walls or furniture), and many more. But ask me about international tax, and while I do not know ....

Reminds of a time at a family reunion when someone suggested that if we improve our lexicon, our experience of Christ will be better. I guffawed openly at that one.

(And I note that such a "lexicon" approach to scripture is probably the reason that most arguments in favor in inerrancy of scripture seem so empty. No matter how many mathematical patterns turn out to look the same up close or far away, the Word of God is not a collection of sayings, but a narrative. It is not a collection of jam-packed words, but descriptive accounts — even Paul's writings.)

I'm not suggesting just remaining totally ignorant of things. But even many of the spiritual things that Paul wrote about were not provided to think about, study, and get really knowledgeable concerning. They were typically existing facts that he provided as the reasons that the audience should act of behave in a different manner. He didn't say to study these premises well and you will become better. He said "this is true, therefore you should do . . . . [whatever]." He didn't say to become crucified with Christ. It doesn't say "you should be crucified with Christ." it says "I am crucified with Christ."

I did note that #16 "[COLOR=darkgreen]Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is

Hi Mike...
Totally respect your post and understand where you are coming from..except on the international tax stuff.

As for the lexicon and scriptural jargon.... The letter does kill!! Haven't we all met people who quote scriptures only to choke the Life out of us? We then meet someone else who shares the same scriptures and suddenly ¥¥ BING¥¥ we GET IT or we are splashed with the WATER of LIFE!!! And we leave so very refreshed!

Just want to share with all, The Holy Spirit of God, Who is ALMIGHTY GOD Himself opened the eyes of my understanding on the Word of Righteousness. In a nutshell, it is Christ Himself and we all know this mentally speaking.

I personally believe it takes the Revelation from the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of Righteousness. Practically speaking however, we all know their are lots of "True Words" spoken by many fine people out there but only ONE is Righteous.

To enter into the Presence of the Word of Righteousness requires us to have a clean heart, a purified mind and the Revelation of the Holy Spirit for He is the One Who reveals Jesus to us, even though He is Christ Jesus in us.

Forgive me if I sound "spiritual". I am not trying to impress anyone. It is just that as I began to speak the Scriptures a few years back, the Lord, the Holy Spirit began to open the eyes of my understanding!

Think about it!? Isn't the entire bible but especially the NT, filled with spiritual jargon? Every book begins and closes glorifying the Lord. Sometimes we read about the Spirit working in us, sometimes "God" is addressed, sometimes it is Christ Jesus.

They are not sermons. The writers are addressing the living saints...and they are all FILLED with the Spirit.

Can I explain it? No. So when I write spiritual words, it is because I DO understand what I am writing!! I am not quoting scriptures! I KNOW I AM crucified with Christ!! I get it!,! TOTALLY!,,

Paul wrote he was a prisoner of Christ. For years that was a scary thought. What connotation does being a prisoner convey? Nothing positive right?

Then a couple of years ago, I GOT IT!,!! What a blessing to be a prisoner of Christ!!!! There is where we are fully protected from all evil!!!! Praise our Awesome Lord and King!!!!

Ok..enough sharing / preaching to the choir!

Blessings and Peace,

Carol

[OBW]

Carol,

Funny thing is that when I think about over-pushing the "spiritual" side of things, I sometimes think of you. Seemingly right at the border at times.

But then you clear it up with posts like that one.

We may know a lot of stuff. We may really understand it. But until the Spirit reveals it, we don't really know it. We have just check-off another box on the
"I believe" list.

And you said that so eloquently.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Carol,

Funny thing is that when I think about over-pushing the "spiritual" side of things, I sometimes think of you. Seemingly right at the border at times.

But then you clear it up with posts like that one.

We may know a lot of stuff. We may really understand it. But until the Spirit reveals it, we don't really know it. We have just check-off another box on the
"I believe" list.

And you said that so eloquently.

Well..thanks Mike! Very kind words from you. . I really do have revelation coupled with experience when I share. I never quote scriptures or share on a topic I have not experienced. It may not come across that way but I am trying with the Lord's help of course to express myself without coming across overbearing & over spiritual.

P.S. When I pray...if I am praying solely for worship, it is there I get revelation beyond human understanding. Sometimes when I address the Holy Spirit in prayer for example, I acknowledge Him being the Spirit of Jesus as well as the Spirit of God the Father. So when I Praise and Honor Him for being the Spirit of Jesus, bazingah!! I suddenly get IT!!! And something happens to me. It is as if GOD ushers me into a new and Glorious dimension. That is the reason I sometimes write as I do, coming across unfortunately as being spiritually overbearing. I do not mean to. Honest.

When I pray for earthly needs, and make my requests be made known to the LORD, I thank Him " with a heart filled with gratitude and thanksgiving for receiving the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart (quoting Psalm 19 in my prayer) to the Praise and Glory of His Name.". I really do pray this way.

When I pray with friends, they express their astonishment in a positive way in the way I prayed. I am not trying to impress them. Are you kidding me ?? If I dare go in that direction, I will get a heavenly whipping!! And I w7ill get spanked right then and there. It takes one good whipping and I/ we will never do that again!!! No thank you!

Muchos blessings to you and everyone here.

Carol G

[james73]

Originally Posted by OBW

Knowing that I will hear from some about "the full knowledge of God" and some other similar verses, the thing about this list that stands out to me is the burning desire of too many people to know a lot of stuff that will not add one bit to their spiritual stature or righteousness, and won't get them even one "star" in their "crown." (No, not one. No, not one.)

Yup, perfect, nail on the head there. It's just empty calories, sugar. And the reward, the sugar high, is the puffed up pride, the feel-good from being one of the few "in the know".

Aron related Lee's style to a politician - to me, it's more a small-time broker trying to convince people to buy gold NOW ("not many people know that the gold price is linked to x, y, z etc etc").

Yes, it inflates the speaker by deceitfully claiming common knowledge as one's own authority. But it also inflates and flatters the listener as being one let in on a secret, as being special, as being "chosen". Sound familiar? It's security, ego and one-upmanship, packaged in a socially-acceptable form... like cigarettes in the 1950s.

LSM is Christianity with a dopamine rush. That's why it's so addictive and hard to leave.

[Elden1971]

#106

1. We must admit that not many Christians, even among us, have entered in a complete way into the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ.

This may be my favorite Bro. Lee quote , but I wish he had pointed out who the not many were....Lee of course and perhaps some of the blended brothers but not many of them....perhaps none of them and maybe he would not include himself. I wonder how one would quantify the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

#106

1. We must admit that not many Christians, even among us, have entered in a complete way into the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ.

This may be my favorite Bro. Lee quote , but I wish he had pointed out who the not many were....Lee of course and perhaps some of the blended brothers but not many of them....perhaps none of them and maybe he would not include himself. I wonder how one would quantify the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ?

In hindsight I'd say "not many Christians" was a tactic. It points the eyes somewhere else, and away from Lee ... who was way too compromised to be in the full enjoyment the all-inclusive Christ. Whatever that is.

"The full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ" was Lee's nifty word screen, invented somewhere else than the Bible ... where there is no such statement.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

#106

1. We must admit that not many Christians, even among us, have entered in a complete way into the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ.

This may be my favorite Bro. Lee quote , but I wish he had pointed out who the not many were....Lee of course and perhaps some of the blended brothers but not many of them....perhaps none of them and maybe he would not include himself. I wonder how one would quantify the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ?

I got delivered from these kinds of sayings when I finally learned how Lee mistreated the saints so unrighteously. He loved to paint a picture that he alone was releasing the riches of Christ in his ministry, when actually his ministry became filled with stale esoteric doctrines taken from others.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by james73

After reading just the first few pages of the LSM Life Study of Ephesians, the phrase "Not many Christians know" jumped out at me again and again. I found this quite distasteful (and fueling the fire of the arrogance of my home group) so I did a little research project...

Here, for your viewing pleasure, are "106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)", according to seven Life Studies (Genesis, Exodus, Ephesians, Hebrews, 1 Corinthians, Colossians & Revelation).

Enjoy - this is not intended for apologetic or theological discussion, simply to show Lee's arrogant writing style "enlarged ad absurdum"

What is really sad, making claims to know what "not many Christians know", yet when it comes to Christians within you're own locality, you don't know who is suffering or who has a particular need.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

What is really sad, making claims to know what "not many Christians know", yet when it comes to Christians within you're own locality, you don't know who is suffering or who has a particular need.

There you go mate!

Witness Lee spoke in the meetings like he knew the condition of every Christian over the whole earth, yet he could not even have honest fellowship with those next door to him in Anaheim.