Does Tithing apply Today?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Tithing is a practice accepted, and rejected, by real Believers from all different walks of life. I have been one who tithed, and I have been one who did not. Ultimately, the Lord would have His way and show me His will in the matter. I would like to open up this discussion by asking others to contribute their portion on this.

I have had peace with my stance on the matter of tithing for many months, but what brought it to a head again in my life were two things which occured some months ago:

The first was an unprovoked attack by a sister on my take on tithing - an attack that went beyond a mere exchange of verses and that instead became personal. The second was something said by one of the leaders in Anaheim - and what he said, in the context of tithing, was "...Whether you give 10%, 15%, or what you are prospered..."

There was no question in this leaders mind that tithing was mandatory, and that, in fact, 10% was the LEAST you ought to tithe. Where he got 15% from, I don't know... and, from the way he structured that sentence, it can be assumed that his belief was that to give what you are prospered is to give more than 15%.

When people support the idea of tithing, they usually site a number of very specific verses to support their position. The verse they start with is (inevitably) Malachi 3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings." This, they say, is their Trump card. Not paying a tithe is robbing God.

Now, rather than respond to that question myself and end the conversation - let me ask you brethren: How would you answer one who says this?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

When people support the idea of tithing, they usually site a number of very specific verses to support their position. The verse they start with is (inevitably) Malachi 3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings." This, they say, is their Trump card. Not paying a tithe is robbing God.

I have all the same questions ... and more. Glad you brought the subject up.

One minister we know feels tithing is our covenant with the Lord, and the source of all our blessing. Without our tithing, we cannot expect God to make good on any of his promises. Like a 4-legged stool, our Christian life is composed of prayer, the word, church and tithing. But tithing is just the base. Upon that base are the many kinds of offerings, missions, gifts to guest speakers, building funds, sowing seeds, pastor appreciation, special events, local fund raisers, sponsoring students, altar calls, healing needs, etc.

Eventually I came to the conclusion that I just could not afford to be a Christian any longer. Apparently, many others felt the same way, and they have left that church too.

.

Personally, I have never been convinced of the validity of tithing for the church. Nothing in the New Testament even alludes to it. Apostle Paul had the greatest of opportunities in I Cor 16.1-2 and said nothing. Numerous other times, like II Cor 9, he spoke of giving as sowing and never mentioned tithing. Obviously he had opportunity, yet the Spirit never inspired it.

That minister likes to speak of "equal sacrifice" provided by tithing. That may have been true in ancient Israel, when tithing was akin to national taxation, but today there is no "equal sacrifice" when one makes $250K and another only $25K. One lives well, and the other lives on credit.

In my view, tithing often negates the responsibility of church leaders. The congregation should have a inner "Amen" concerning the financial affairs of her leaders. Why should our giving be so "legal" and demanded of, when the leaders have no such restrictions on their spending? Many of the ones who stress giving so much, are the very ones who love base gain. Leaders love to build their "empires" on the backs of God's people.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That minister likes to speak of "equal sacrifice" provided by tithing. That may have been true in ancient Israel, when tithing was akin to national taxation, but today there is no "equal sacrifice" when one makes $250K and another only $25K. One lives well, and the other lives on credit.

Actually Brother Ohio, tithing was NOT a form of taxation in ancient Israel... and construing tithing in this way, as many in different ministries have, is not Biblical at all.

Leviticus 27:30-33, "And all the TITHE of the LAND, whether of the SEED of the land, or of the FRUIT, of the tree, is the Lord’s: it is holy unto the Lord. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the TITHE of the HERD, or of the FLOCK, even of whatsoever passes under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it..."

What was tithed was tithed by those who worked the land - and not by fishermen, not by merchants, not by carpenters and not by cobblers nor by any other tradesmen. What was tithed was of the fruit and the seed of the land, or of the herd or the flock... but although coin was used in ancient Israel, money was never tithed.

Also, unlike what we hear about the first tenth being tithed, here we see it was actually the tenth tenth. If a farmer had only nine sheep, he tithed none. Further, unlike sacrificial animals, the animal tithed need not be unblemished nor spotless (he was not even to consider whether it was good or bad), it was only the tenth to pass under the rod.

...I should also say that the tithes that were paid were not paid to a government official, as a taxation would be. They were paid to the Levites.

Numbers 18:24-28,"But the TITHES of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance."

The tithes were paid to Levitical Priests, because they had no other means of inheritance... and they were paid in food; not in cold hard cash, not in filthy lucre....

And Amen brother, you are absolutely right: There is not a single verse in the New Testament that tells us to tithe... Paul instructs the Believers and tells them that God honors a cheerful giver - but this isn't tithing. It seems odd that the apostle to the Gentiles - who surely knew nothing of Jewish traditions - would NOT be told to tithe, if they were required to. Giving 10% of everything you earn to the church is not something that would have come natural to any of them - or any of us, if we're honest - it's something that is taught... so why is it not taught in the New Testament, if it really is God's requirement? Not even the Judaizers, who tried to teach Gentile Believers to circumcise in the flesh, seem to have spoken about tithing. Seem odd, doesn't it?

....But any thoughts on that verse from Malachi, the tithers 'nail in the coffin'?

[countmeworthy]

Tithing in today's church buildings' settings is part of their business organization. Building and maintaining the structures, the electricity, water, parking lots can only be kept up with money.

Before I forget, Newt Gingrich will be speaking at John Hagee's church "Cornerstone" in San Antonio, Tx at 6:30p. Get their early !!!!!

There are tax write offs for the pastors of the church buildings. I believe (not positive though) even their homes, cars and traveling expenses are write offs. The congregation who tithes w/a check or credit card can also write off contributions on their taxes.

SO what if the govt. stepped up and decreed churches could no longer write off their contributions on taxes. (Rome for starters would be FURIOUS) followed by everyone else. The govt would not be saying a person could not tithe. It would simply be saying "No tax write offs for church contributions."

I think a lot of people would be sweating bullets and true FAITH would have to be put to work.

Personally, don't we true believers trust the Voice of God in our spirit? If He tells us to give, regardless to WHOM, we will obey. Why must we be told we MUST TITHE ! Do the puppet masters not have Faith in God to speak to us individually?

ALMOST ALWAYS, when a person buys a teaching, CD/DVD or product from a preacher/teacher, you will be put on a mailing list. You'll receive a nice packet from them with the latest teachings/products and an offering envelope.

In most mega churches, the tithe is different from an offering. In some services, there will be the tithe collection followed by 2-3 offerings. AND Always when a guest speaker comes, an offering will be taken for the speaker even though in most cases the speaker CHARGES a FEE for coming to speak to a "church". Their fees are NOT cheap either ! AND they must be picked up at the airport, be put up in a hotel in most cases and all at the expense of the invitee. That's all on top of the speaker's FEE !

In return, the speaker who in most cases is very well known will draw in the crowds and in many cases to standing room capacity only. The tithes/offerings will certainly be 'huge' that weekend. The speaker also lavishes his praises on the pastor who invited him/her to speak. This makes the congregation feel all "PROUD" of such a FINE man/woman of God. To the newcomers, they will be "WOWED!" by the speakers' comments on the pastor and thus possibly increasing the membership to that church, resulting in........ you guessed it: more $$$$$ for the church.

Let me also say, most big named church pastors have a payroll. They have a staff on salary working for them providing health care and 401k benefits as well in most cases. Many of the well known pastors make annual salaries in the MILLIONS. Their staff make good salaries too but must sign loyalty contracts.

I've been there.
That said, if the Holy Spirit leads you to GIVE, by all means Give ! Just be cautious and careful.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Before I forget, Newt Gingrich will be speaking at John Hagee's church "Cornerstone" in San Antonio, Tx at 6:30p. Get their early !!!!!

SO what if the govt. stepped up and decreed churches could no longer write off their contributions on taxes. (Rome for starters would be FURIOUS) followed by everyone else. The govt would not be saying a person could not tithe. It would simply be saying "No tax write offs for church contributions."

I just heard ole Newt weasel and squirm when asked by Fox's Chris Wallace about cheating on his two wives. "Well ... I am so passionate about my country, and get to working so hard, that I ... uhhh ... well ..."

Chris Wallace cut to the chase, and basically told him that his wife would not accept that bullship as an answer.

.

Concerning charitable deductions, I think the elimination is on the horizon, and I think it will do much more good than bad. There is so much greed and waste in these ministries, and many of them should dry up and close their doors. With the elimination of charitable offerings, all those liberal causes will go too. Even mosques get the same freebies as churches, and much of that money gets blown up in some Israeli marketplace.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

And Amen brother, you are absolutely right: There is not a single verse in the New Testament that tells us to tithe... Paul instructs the Believers and tells them that God honors a cheerful giver - but this isn't tithing. It seems odd that the apostle to the Gentiles - who surely knew nothing of Jewish traditions - would NOT be told to tithe, if they were required to.

NFNL, thanks for the instruction on tithing. I knew it was given to the Levites, but did not realize that it was only exacted of those who worked the land. I'm sure that all changed by Solomon's time, because his lavish lifestyle required "contributions" from all.

It's interesting how each congregation interprets the Old Testament. One place I visit insists we should have no musical instruments for our worship, because none are indicated in the New Testament. Another place insists on tithing because no New Testament verse has stopped the practice. In both instances the New Testament is basically silent.

Why doesn't the first place reject tithing because the N.T. is silent, and the second place demand instruments because no N.T. verse has stopped the use of instruments?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Tithing is a practice accepted, and rejected, by real Believers from all different walks of life. I have been one who tithed, and I have been one who did not. Ultimately, the Lord would have His way and show me His will in the matter. I would like to open up this discussion by asking others to contribute their portion on this.

I have had peace with my stance on the matter of tithing for many months, but what brought it to a head again in my life were two things which occured some months ago:

The first was an unprovoked attack by a sister on my take on tithing - an attack that went beyond a mere exchange of verses and that instead became personal. The second was something said by one of the leaders in Anaheim - and what he said, in the context of tithing, was "...Whether you give 10%, 15%, or what you are prospered..."

There was no question in this leaders mind that tithing was mandatory, and that, in fact, 10% was the LEAST you ought to tithe. Where he got 15% from, I don't know... and, from the way he structured that sentence, it can be assumed that his belief was that to give what you are prospered is to give more than 15%.

When people support the idea of tithing, they usually site a number of very specific verses to support their position. The verse they start with is (inevitably) Malachi 3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings." This, they say, is their Trump card. Not paying a tithe is robbing God.

Now, rather than respond to that question myself and end the conversation - let me ask you brethren: How would you answer one who says this?

I would like to discuss this topic but don't have time at present. I would begin with Zacheus, who after experiencing grace was inspired to respond in a way that was righteous according to the Law of the OT. The OT law is a portrait of our God. Clearly the laws on tithing fall into the same category as the laws of restitution that Zacheaus was referring to.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Tithing is a practice accepted, and rejected, by real Believers from all different walks of life. I have been one who tithed, and I have been one who did not. Ultimately, the Lord would have His way and show me His will in the matter. I would like to open up this discussion by asking others to contribute their portion on this.

I have had peace with my stance on the matter of tithing for many months, but what brought it to a head again in my life were two things which occurred some months ago:

The first was an unprovoked attack by a sister on my take on tithing - an attack that went beyond a mere exchange of verses and that instead became personal. The second was something said by one of the leaders in Anaheim - and what he said, in the context of tithing, was "...Whether you give 10%, 15%, or what you are prospered..."

There was no question in this leaders mind that tithing was mandatory, and that, in fact, 10% was the LEAST you ought to tithe. Where he got 15% from, I don't know... and, from the way he structured that sentence, it can be assumed that his belief was that to give what you are prospered is to give more than 15%.

When people support the idea of tithing, they usually site a number of very specific verses to support their position. The verse they start with is (inevitably) Malachi 3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings." This, they say, is their Trump card. Not paying a tithe is robbing God.

Now, rather than respond to that question myself and end the conversation - let me ask you brethren: How would you answer one who says this?

There are too many verses that speak in too many directions to simply conclude that there is one answer. But as you start with Malachi, that one is specific to say that, whatever it is, it is a form of robbery to avoid it.

But what impresses me more than most of the conclusions that try to say either there is a specific tithe that we should do, or that there is no longer a tithe, is the attitudes of most who spend time trying to decide based on the technical analysis of scripture. In that analysis, they are either trying to prove that it is, or prove that it is not. They are, on one hand, trying to lay a burden upon others, or on the other hand, trying to avoid any responsibility in the matter. And the notion that the "tithe" may have been only a tenth of a tenth seems to be an effort in casting it off rather than in recognizing that there is a small burden required, but no limit to what God may ask of each of us.

While I am often not a proponent of the "me and my word from God," or "me and my Bible," I do believe that we should have some understanding with God of how to be involved in financing the church and its ministry(ies). I am not talking just about the LRC, or just about the things that happen within the building that is used for some Christian gathering. I am talking about the whole of true Christian ministry, including the making a way for some to give their time to study and teaching, missions, etc.

But if you just can't seem to conclude that it is your responsibility at all, then maybe having some appreciation for the specific commands from scripture, even if mainly OT, that made the job of funding the practical aspects of the church everyone's, not just the rich. It might be better to at least have the sense that you should work toward a tithe, whatever that is, even if your reality is only to be able to give a little.

And in our rather mainstream Christian group, we have never taken a special offering because of a guest speaker. It isn't even mentioned as a reason to "dig in deeper" for the one passing of the baskets. We may not hide our offering box in a slot in the wall somewhere, but there is never some special effort requiring separate passings of the baskets. We take what we get and use it.

So. Is there a requirement for a "tithe"? Maybe not. But we should have the sense before God that there is a requirement — some requirement. Not just a suggestion.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by OBW

...if you just can't seem to conclude that it (tithing) is your responsibility at all, then maybe having some appreciation for the specific commands from scripture, even if mainly OT, that made the job of funding the practical aspects of the church everyone's, not just the rich. It might be better to at least have the sense that you should work toward a tithe, whatever that is, even if your reality is only to be able to give a little.

...we should have the sense before God that there is a requirement — some requirement. Not just a suggestion.

Ah Brother,

I have not brought up this topic in order to force my will in the matter on anyone, for as I said in my opening sentence: "Tithing is a practice accepted, and rejected, by real Believers"... Genuine Christians, honest Brothers and Sisters in Christ - so my feeling on the matter is, regardless of your stance, it does not in any way hinder my fellowship with you. I bring tithing to this forum however, because I do see many suffering under it's bondage - and that needs to be addressed. If they choose to tithe, so be it - but Believers ought to know what tithing in the Old Testament really was, and to understand what the church has turned it into through the centuries. People also need to understand that the idea of tithing resulting in a financial windfall, which is another fallacy I often heard preached, is also not Biblical. If it were, then surely all of the apostles would have died wealthy and peaceful as could be. God is not interested in funding us for a life of leisure. He is absolutely faithful to provide for our needs, yes - but financial prosperity isn't a need for anyone.

Should we not give for the ministrations of the saints and for the work of the Church - the evangelization of the World through the proclamation of the Good News of Jesus Christ? Absolutely we should... but should it be a formulaic call for cash? If so, is there Scriptural support for that idea?

My brother, you have said

Originally Posted by OBW

There are too many verses that speak in too many directions to simply conclude that there is one answer. But as you start with Malachi, that one is specific to say that, whatever it is, it is a form of robbery to avoid it.

I do not believe that I can agree with that assessment, and that is why I brought this matter forward. I am looking for one who believes in tithing to present to me not historical conjecture (IE: Solomon's Temple was likely financed by some unrecorded increase in the depth or scope of the tithe) - but proof from the Living Word of God that tithing, as it is taught from many pulpits today, is a real Christian obligation.... for that is what is taught by many: Not that tithing is an option, but that tithing is mandatory; and that those who do not tithe are under a curse.

The tithe wasn't money, and the tithe didn't include anything other than agricultural products, and therefore wasn't inclusive of anyone who was not already a land owner.

Tithes that were taken were not brought to the Levites to build up the temple (which, according to the Biblical record, was built by forced labour, and not by willing hands (1 Kings 5:13, and 1 Kings 9:14-21)). If any form of "tithe" is applicable today - then it likewise should not be for the building up of a church building - or funding a salary. This is NOT to say that we should not build church buildings and that we should not fund salaries - BUT if Old Testament tithes are a type of a (theoretical) New Testament tithe, then we should see the same principals that applied then apply now in a fulfillment of the type.

I've written, re-written, and erased what I've begun here many times over, seeking not only the proper words but the proper heart for what I want to share. The Lord seems to keep leading me away from the arguments and back to His direct speaking... so let me go there for a moment.

Matthew 21:12-13 "Jesus entered the Temple and began to drive out all the people buying and selling animals for sacrifice. He knocked over the tables of the money changers and the chairs of those selling doves. He said to them, "The Scriptures declare, 'My Temple will be called a house of prayer,' but you have turned it into a den of thieves!"

Our Lord may actually have cleansed the Temple twice, because we read this same account in Mark 11:15-18 but also later in His ministry in John 2:14. Regardless of whether He cleansed the Temple once or twice, we need to see what it really is He cleansed the Temple of: Who were these "money changers", and what exactly were they doing that so enraged Him with a righteous anger?

They weren't selling Temple "souvenirs", nor were they changing money from one currency to another - Scripture is clear, they were "buying and selling animals for sacrifice". Does that sound wrong to your ears? To a Christian, who knows Christ as the perfect Sacrifice, perhaps... but this is before His crucifixion - Sacrifice was commanded by God for the cleansing of sins. People who came from too far away for this sacrifice (as remember, sacrifices to God could ONLY be done here at the Temple, and no where else in the World) would likely not drive their oxen to the Temple... I mean, at this point in the history of the nation of Israel, there were Jews scattered all over the Roman Empire - would they realistically make the journey back to Jerusalem annually as the Law required with oxen and sheep and doves in tow? Why wouldn't they simply purchase them here, to give God the Glory? What's wrong with that?

Don't we do that same thing today? How many church buildings have I seen that have a book store (LSM churches certainly do, and they're not at all alone in that), or a music department, or a sign up sheet for conferences or seminars or get-aways (maybe at $25.00 per person or $2,500.00 per). Does this differ in principal from what the money changers were doing? If it doesn't, then what does that mean?

What did Peter mean when, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, he said:

2nd Peter 2:1-3 (excerpted) "But there arose also false prophets among the people, as also among you there will be false teachers, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies... And in covetousness, with fabricated words, they will make merchandise of you..."

The ESV translates this as "And in their greed they will exploit you with false words."

We ought to give, but give as the Spirit leads. To know how the Spirit leads requires a closer walk with Him. To walk closer with Him requires more time in His Word and more time in Prayer. That is what He wants - that is where being a real Christian both begins and ends. Don't present 10% of your paycheck, present 100% of yourself - a LIVING sacrifice - your reasonable service to our Lord.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I bring tithing to this forum however, because I do see many suffering under it's bondage - and that needs to be addressed. If they choose to tithe, so be it - but Believers ought to know what tithing in the Old Testament really was, and to understand what the church has turned it into through the centuries. People also need to understand that the idea of tithing resulting in a financial windfall, which is another fallacy I often heard preached, is also not Biblical.

NFNL, great points.

Reminds me, in principle, of my final years in the LC program. I just knew deep within that things were wrong. Very wrong. Yet, while I remained inside the system, I was in a fog, and could not see clearly the many reasons we were not blessed by the Lord..

Sometimes I meet with a large community church, which is Pentecostal. They stress tithing weekly, using the verses from Malachi to put fear into their people, "Why ye rob God?" But, no one has gone back to study tithing. If the matter is troubling within, then we should seek the Lord, and study the word closely, and not be "fogged" by the minister's teaching.

Is there any indication in scripture that tithing was giving 10% of your income to the church? Are the O.T. offerings also types of financial offering that should be duplicated in the church?

NFNL, you spoke of those "suffering under bondage," and I do believe that none suffer more than those precious saints who continue to believe that God has not healed them because they have not sufficiently "sown seeds" of money in order to reap their own healing. While I do believe God is our Healer, what do we say concerning those who "rob widows," the most vulnerable of God's people.

Apostle Paul says, "we are not like the many, peddling the word of God," and "not walking in craftiness nor adulterating the word of God." How do we justify the enormous salaries and bountiful perks of our so-called leaders?

Recently I read that one ministry took in $90M/year, with numerous cars and homes for all the family members on the "staff," yet justified the enormous amount by boldly declaring that "we give 10% to the Lord." Why not give 99% back to the Lord, as it appears that Paul and the other Apostles did?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Excerpt, the Catholic Encyclopedia
"As the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law... The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the [canons] of the Council of Macon in 585."



567 AD? Well, that's 500 years after the birth of the New Testament Church. Catholics know their own history, and they were the early church. Trust them when they tell you, tithing is NOT an early Christian teaching. It was born out of either practicality or greed, depending upon your view of the matter. It forced unbelievers to contribute by law, whether they wanted to or not - would our God honor a heart that unwillingly gave, OR a heart that forcefully took?



Excerpt Encyclopedia Brittanica On-line
"Despite serious resistance, tithing became obligatory as Christianity spread across Europe. It was enjoined by ecclesiastical law from the 6th century and enforced in Europe by secular law from the 8th century. In England in the 10th century, payment was made obligatory under ecclesiastical penalties by Edmund I and under temporal penalties by Edgar. In the 14th century Pope Gregory VII, in an effort to control abuses, outlawed lay ownership of tithes.

During the 16th-century Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther approved in general of paying tithes to the temporal sovereign, and the imposition of tithes continued for the benefit of Protestant as well as Roman Catholic churches. Gradually, however, opposition grew. Tithes were repealed in France during the Revolution (1789), without compensation to tithe holders. Other countries abolished certain kinds of tithes and indemnified the holders. By 1887 the tithe had been brought to an end in Italy. It was abolished in Ireland at the disestablishment of the Anglican church in 1871, and it gradually died out in the Church of Scotland. In England in 1836, the tithe was commuted for a rent charge depending on the price of grain, and in 1936 the tithe rent charges were abolished. New methods of taxation were developed in those countries that provided financial support of the church out of government funds. Remnants of the tithing system do exist, however, in certain Protestant European countries. In Germany, for example, citizens must pay a church tax unless they formally renounce membership in a church.

Tithe was never a legal requirement in the United States. Members of certain churches, however, including the Latter-day Saints and Seventh-day Adventists, are required to tithe, and some Christians in other churches do so voluntarily.

The Eastern Orthodox churches never accepted the idea of tithes, and Orthodox church members have never paid them."

Again, I say if we have a right relationship with our Lord, then we will be as He was... our heart will soften, and we will be free to give as He leads.

The sister who attacked my position on tithing has forced her own views in her household - taking the lead and getting her husband to submit to her position, although she herself does not earn the pay cheque and they are a financially struggling family of nine. She believes she must tithe 10% of their GROSS income, before taxes (which are substantially higher here in Canada than they are in the USA). She believes her tithe must come first, and if she can't pay other bills, too bad 'God comes first'. They have a lot of credit issues, and have declared bankruptcy before. They are really struggling.

I don't want to say these things about this family to expose them, but if anyone else out there is in this same position then I want them to hear this: How you handle your debts is part of your testimony to the unbelieving world. If you don't pay your debts, then you are robbing from your creditors.

I asked this sister why she felt she needed to pay this kind of money, she asked "well how else is the church in blankety-blank going to pay for the chairs and the heat and the lights and the carpeting?!" How else? Well, if you can't trust God to provide for His people what they truly need, then maybe you need to ask if God really believes He has an interest vested in those things.

I think the mightiest movements for God are actually quite financially poor. That's why we see the power in the growth of the Church in the third world, and often see such a lack here in the wealth of the West. Why? Because where your mind is, there will your heart be also. Give of your money - that is fine - but far less important than giving of your time and of yourself. Is there a need? Then fill it. A family in need of help, then go and help them... don't just write them a cheque and write them off; actually visit them, minister to them, and care for them in a real and practical way. Build up the Body of Christ with the love of Christ which is in you! For the Body to grow, it must be nourished. For the Kingdom to flourish, it must gain new citizens. Do we want people to flock to hear the Word of God because the buildings we erect are attractive and comfortable, or because they see something in us that they realize they also need: A real love for God the Father and a relationship with God the Son; a relationship that transforms us from the inside out - and really does make us like Him in life and in nature... and how many times did we read of Him slipping some coins into the hands of someone who came to Him for help?

To those who would lead the Church in this age, not I but our Lord Jesus Christ does say:

Luke 16:13-15 "No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed Him.And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God."


In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

The sister who attacked my position on tithing has forced her own views in her household - taking the lead and getting her husband to submit to her position, although she herself does not earn the pay cheque and they are a financially struggling family of nine. She believes she must tithe 10% of their GROSS income, before taxes (which are substantially higher here in Canada than they are in the USA). She believes her tithe must come first, and if she can't pay other bills, too bad 'God comes first'. They have a lot of credit issues, and have declared bankruptcy before. They are really struggling.

When I read this sad testimony, the verse came to mind, "by works of law shall no flesh be justified before Him." -- Rom 3.20

I grew up in Catholicism, and it is so easy to latch onto some church commandment (like going to mass and confession) to soothe the conscience and bribe our heart. How many other families have been damaged by such legalities?

NFNL, your research on Tithing is eye-opening. It never existed in the early church, then it got twisted and revived to support Rome? Do you have any idea how much gold is owned by the Vatican?!?

Btw, back in the mid-80's during the "new way," WL did propose an increase from 10% to 15% tithing. 10% was for the church, and 5% was for the full-timers. I remember one brother chiding me for offering 10% of net, rather than 10% of gross.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Tithing is a practice accepted, and rejected, by real Believers from all different walks of life. I have been one who tithed, and I have been one who did not. Ultimately, the Lord would have His way and show me His will in the matter. I would like to open up this discussion by asking others to contribute their portion on this.

Brother NFnL,

My wife just forwarded this article to me on tithing, have you seen it?

The Tithe That Binds

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother NFnL,

My wife just forwarded this article to me on tithing, have you seen it?

The Tithe That Binds

No brother, I hadn't read that article... but I have gone through it some now. Saints: It is well worth the read (but print it out)!

LSM went far beyond even typical teaching of tithing. Perhaps one could argue that they hadn't personally heard a call for 15% of their own gross earnings, still you would be hard pressed to deny that the LSM ministry is built around merchandising.

LSM is more publishing house than ministry. How many of it's meeting halls do not also have a bookstore, where one is encouraged and even admonished to invest in books, cd's, hymnals, Bibles, collected works, and 'morning revivals'; and then also to pay for video trainings, and to pay for trips to training centres.... I ask you, how can one fully participate in such a ministry without a considerable financial investment?

2nd Corinthians 2:17 " For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God."

Amen