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01-05-2011, 10:17 PM
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 348
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My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
Saints, I have only recently found this site, but surely it has been the Lord's provision. As of today, January 5th 2010, still participatory in the LSM trade-marked Church Life here in my locality; but I do not know how much longer this will continue. I've been wrestling for two and a half years over the unique ministry we have, certain that the issue was with me and not with the ministry... and I don't feel that way anymore. You will forgive me if I don't yet post my proper name, to protect my family from any practical prosecution as many of you have unfortunately already experienced by the LSM leadership.
I was born in Canada 39 years ago, to loving parents both of whom emigrated from Germany as children with their own families. My parents had themselves been raised in only nominally Christian (specifically Lutheran) homes, and were not themselves Saved Believers - but they determined that my younger sister and I would have "more than they had", as my father would later put it. Seeking to build a faith in me which they themselves lacked, they saw to it that I made the habit of saying my prayers at night, and spent my Sundays in a Sunday School at our local Lutheran church. The Lutheran Church I attended from approximately age 8-14 was where I learned more about the dogma and doctrine of the Lutheran Church, and about Christendom - but if I am to be honest, then I must confess that I learned very little about the Person of Christ. I attended classes, I memorized the orders of the books of the Bible, I colored pictures of Jesus, I even visited a Synagogue and celebrated Passover, but I do not remember hearing the gospel message spoken, I do not recall anyone who put the Name of ‘Jesus Christ’ and ‘Lord’ together. In fact, I can testify that it wasn't until I had already gone through my confirmation classes and participated in my first communion and began serving as an Acolyte that I began to realize that after all of this study, I still did not feel as though I knew what it meant to be a Christian. The "Christianity" I saw in my own home was about Christmas trees, Easter eggs, and Highway to Heaven episodes. There was a superficiality about it that I could clearly see, and it left me unfulfilled.... I had been given a Bible by my church, and I knew that everyone said it was the Word of God. That being the case, I knew It had the authority to teach me what I wanted to know, and so I determined to read it to find out what it really meant to be a Christian. Saints, I probably don't need to tell you that to one who is unsaved, the Bible can be a very mysterious thing - our eyes are closed and the truth is veiled. I can tell you honestly that I plainly did not understand much of what I read - and I read faithfully, determined to know the Truth. When I stumbled at a difficult passage, I would go first to my parents ("Mom, WHY would the Angel of God wrestle with Jacob and hurt him? Why would God demand that babies be circumcised - that's mutilation!" etc.) - but since they had never read the Bible nor received the Lord as their Saviour, they couldn't answer my questions. As I made my way through the Bible, my confusion grew - I did not have the discernment to understand what I was reading, and by the time I reached the Book of Revelation, I was terrified. I grew up sensitive to the precarious condition of the world around me - during the Cold War, the Iran Contra affair, during the height of tensions between East and West. I had long been horrified by the prospect of a third world war - and here in the these last pages those fears seemed borne out. Looking for answers, I went to my Pastor. My Pastor was a dear man, and I've no doubt that he would have answered me if he could. Sadly, when I asked him what the Book of Revelation meant, he said only "We don't ever preach from that book." He was being honest. Most of the sermons in our church building were about church finances and good works. I was completely shattered. His admonition confirmed my worst fears - Christianity (what I knew of it at the time), was a sham - a make-believe religion where everyone claimed to believe the Bible was the Word of God, but nobody cared enough about it to read it. Where everyone said nice things to eachother's faces, but spoke gossip behind their backs. Where those who did read the Bible didn't understand it any better than I did. I determined that I was done with Christianity.... but Praise the Lord, Christ wasn't done with me. How many believers did the Lord gain by their simply getting in the Word? The Living Word of God, breathed out by Him, which is sharper than any two-edged sword, able to divide soul from spirit? He knew that I was honestly seeking Him, and though my eyes were not yet unveiled, He knew the time and place to gain me. At 17 years of age I had drifted from the church I used to attend and the company I used to keep. I was not mixed up in a bad crowd, but I wasn't mixed with a God crowd either. There were events in my life going on (though strangely, none I can honestly particularly recall), that the Lord would use to bring me to my knees. One night, lying in my bed and considering my miserable condition, I wept and cried out to the Lord for hours. The gospel message I'd read and re-read in the Gospels had been etched in my heart, and I turned now to it for solace and cried out to the Lord Jesus for Salvation. Saints, it seemed I wept for hours - but when I called, He came. That night I felt the Holy Spirit touch me, and I knew Jesus Christ was real! Saints, I wish I could say my story ends there - and from 17 on I marched on as a confident and conquering man of Christ. But I cannot. The truth of it is, while my Salvation that night was very real, it was also about to put me directly in the line of fire. The Lord was faithful. Although I was Saved not through the prompting or fellowship of a brother or sister in Christ, He put true believers in my path. Sadly, my past experience with many so-called Christians made me distrustful of them - and the Enemy used this as a tool against me. I rejected fellowship with others, thinking my own relationship with the Lord was not only enough but more real than anything they could offer. I was the sheep who rejected the fold - and my wandering would leave me easy prey for the wolves. Within a year I was 18, and well on the way to making a real mess of my life. As the years passed, one hurtful episode after another followed me. The Enemy seemed ever to whisper in my ear, and I wandered further and further from the Lord. I was convinced in my heart that the Lord had come to Save me, but I wasn't worthy of that Salvation. I believed I had no right to speak to Him anymore - He could not possibly want a filthy wretch like me. Outwardly, I denied Him - but inwardly - I would quietly mumble my thanks for the mercy He showed me. I remember the day after my first child was born, crying and calling out to Him on the way to the hospital. "Thank You Lord," I wept "thank You for giving me my baby! I am so sorry Lord!". I was blessed, saints. I was blessed with a wife, and children, and a comfortable house to live in. Always He worked to Shepherd me, it seemed. I'd been working in a bar for a while, when I met my wife - but He saw to it that my environment was changed - and somehow I found a new job cooking at a Mennonite Bible College. We moved out to the country, and He provided us a house at an incredibly low rent that a Hutterite colony owned... and again I saw the testimony of other believers.... Always He was moving and working. Oh Lord Jesus, thank You for never giving up on me! We began to attend a church again - this time at a Lutheran/Anglican church. The fact that it was Lutheran was what drew me, as it seemed at the least a familiar name... but alas, it would also have a familiar spirit. This church, the first I'd attended regularly since my teens, was a church made up of a mix of Lutheran and Anglican adherents. The two groups were too small to be independent, and so they had pooled their limited resources and met together at the Anglican building. Both groups had their own Pastor, and my wife and I really hit it off with the Lutheran Pastor. He was a fine man, seemed devoted to his congregation, and we were drawn in and participated. I cooked for pot-luck dinners, my wife helped downstairs with the children in Sunday School, and we listened to sermons on good works and how to treat your fellow man. When the Anglican Priest spoke, he would speak quietly, not meeting our eyes. We heard him say things like "You will be surprised who you see in heaven. There will be Christians, but there will also be Jews and Muslims and Buddhists - and even atheists will be there. It doesn't matter if you come to church or don't... it's about a loving God..." Or things like "homosexuality is just another type of love - and God IS love." This Priest looked more uncomfortable saying these things than I did hearing them, but it didn't stop him.... and we started skipping the Sundays we knew he'd be speaking. Some of the church elders, enjoying our fellowship, asked if I'd be interested in joining the church board at that time. I was flattered, but surprised. I was by far one of the youngest attendants - save only the children - and I reasoned within myself that I couldn't possibly accept such a position - although I felt truly called to it. I remember that well. I was very conflicted. I couldn't believe I could do it, but I felt I should - even I felt I had to... but I didn't. I didn't, and time ran out. A month after I rejected the offer to join the board, we received the news that our Lutheran Pastor was going to be moving to Saskatchewan to join his wife - who had been elected as Bishop. I was distraught, as he was a man I at least felt comfortable 'exploring' my faith with. His departure would effectively terminate the agreement between the two churches, and it would mean that we would have to vote on our fate. Our options were three: Consolidate as a single congregation under the remaining Anglican Priest, migrate as a group to a liberal United Church down the street, or open the church to the application of new Pastors, be they Anglican or Lutheran. I knew what I had to vote to do, but I was surprised by the outcome. Perhaps I shouldn't have been. When the time to cast our secret vote came, it was decided that it ought to be unanimous. I discussed my vote with no one other than my wife, who spent her time with the children in any case, and hadn't been upstairs to hear the sermons I'd heard. I felt it would be as clear a vote to the rest of the congregation as it was to me. I voted as I felt lead - to open the congregation to a new Pastor - and my wife, following my headship, did the same. Only one other in the whole congregation voted likewise. The other thirty votes were to keep the Anglican Priest who seemed so... lost, as our leader. It's heart-breaking, really. Had I listened to that still, small voice and joined the board, perhaps I could have fellowshipped with others about the state of this man's faith. This Priest needed our prayers and help - and no one reached out to him to give it, because he was the one elected and paid to help us... but he couldn't. I don't think he even knew what he believed.... A second vote was cast, and again I prayed that more people would have the courage to stand, seeing as three of us did, on the side of Truth... but the 3rd vote was recanted, and my wife and I stood alone. It was the last time my family went to that church. Two more years passed. By now the Lord had blessed us with a house of our own, on a beautiful achreage in the woods - a one hundred and ten year old rectory set beside a preserved, but closed, Catholic church in a true ghost town. It was our dream home. Oh, Lord Jesus, how generous You are Lord. You are the everlasting God, and we love You Lord! At this time of my life, I still did pray in thanks to Him - and I felt ever called to do and be more for Him... I prayed with my children, and I read them some Bible stories... and I had been reading from His Word again myself, and listening to the likes of Dr. Woodrow Kroll of Back to the Bible on the radio, and very occasionally Dr. Charles Stanley - although I felt convicted when I listened to him, often... still living a very worldly life. Oh, Lord Jesus. I worked as a salesman, and the Lord blessed my work. My success fed my ego, and when the conditions at my workplace began to deteriorate, I began to believe that I could do better. I began to actively seek employment working directly for a manufacturer as a product rep - and I approached the company I believed to the best in the industry. Without fellowship or a prayer, I contacted them and began to write answers to questions on their on-line end-user Q&A forum. After the first three answers, they began to publish my responses. By my fifth answer, they contacted me and asked me if I wanted a job - offering me positions in Long Beach, Richmond, or Houston. My wife loved our house and her horses, and did not want to leave for the States, so I asked about a position in Canada. The next day I received a job offer, as Regional Manager. Saints, how many people do you know who are smart enough to pray to the Lord before taking a job, and then stupid enough to disobey His clear speaking on the matter? If you've never met one before, you have today. I am the one. I prayed to Him "Lord, should I take this job?". You know what He said? He said "DO NOT TAKE THAT JOB.", and He said it so loudly that I jumped. I literally jumped. I could not believe that I heard the voice of God so clearly! "God doesn't speak to people like that!" I thought, but you know what? EVERYTIME I prayed about it, I got the same response. And everytime, I thought "Naw, it's got to be me.... I must just be nervous.... I can do this job! This is gonna pay great!" Oh what a fool I was. The job would require travel - I would cover Thunder Bay Ontario through to Vancouver Island - four time zones. I would travel 2-3 weeks a month, and I would have to pick up our family and move us to Alberta. I had always loved Alberta, and the idea of being responsible fed my pride. I accepted the job. Saints, let me spare you the details. The Lord, I learned, never meant that I couldn't do that job. He never meant that I wouldn't receive money or respect or power. He meant that I could never afford to pay the price of those things. My taking that job nearly destroyed my entire family. For a year and half I worked for that company, traveling - while my wife and I drifted apart. My children wept when I left, and I wept while I was away - missing so much - and no longer desired at home. I was trapped - and it was trap of my own making. I had begged for people, like my mother, who was battling with breast cancer, to ask me to quit the job "Just tell me to quit, and I will!" I would say... but she wouldn't. "You have to do what's right for your family." she said. I wouldn't do what was right for my family - because I was worried what people would say if I told them that I was giving up so lucrative a job just because God told me to. The Lord was merciful. My daughter, who was only six years old at the time, came in one morning to tell me I had to go to Montreal "to tell my Boss that you have a little a girl at home, who can't take it anymore." Oh Lord Jesus, it nearly broke my heart. My wife was miserable, and I was feeling more trapped than ever. We were spending the money I was making, and I didn't have a quick fix. How could I leave the job now? The Lord made a way... While we were "home" on holidays, in the summer of 2006, my mother very suddenly took a turn for the worse, and went into the hospital. By the Lord's grace, I was there that day - and was finally able to have the conversation with her that she'd always wanted to have, and that I'd always put off. I got to say goodbye. I got to tell her how much I would miss her, and how empty our family would be without her. My mother, through her 14 year battle with breast cancer, through out-surviving three support groups, through the mercy and grace of our Lord and Saviour - the author and perfector of our faith, had come to know Jesus Christ as Lord. In August my mom died, but she had been Saved. I promised to return to take care of my dad. I promised her, and I kept that promise as best I could. I contacted my old employer, and they were happy to take me back, as soon as I was able to come. In November of 2006 my family returned home, still broken - but I believed ready to heal. I bought my wife's ramshackle childhood home in her hometown. My wife was happy, and my kids ecstatic. I remember standing on the street in front of the house that day, and praying "Thank You Lord, for restoring us. Thank You Lord, for bringing us home! Thank You Lord!" I remember what I heard Him say in response, in that still, small voice. He said "It isn't over yet." Oh, Lord Jesus. The Lord forgives us, if we are faithful to confess our sins. But forgiveness isn't the same as wiping out the consequences of deliberate sin. In taking the job He was faithful to tell me not to take, I was guilty of deliberate disobedience. The consequences of that would not be wiped out.... Going back to my old job was like coming home, and spending time with family we’d long left behind felt good… but we weren’t back long before my wife started returning to see old friends, and things between the two of us still were not the same. The Lord’s speaking was not lost on me, and I prayed fervently for His guidance and His care. I prayed with my children, and we read the Bible together. I started with my daughter in Matthew, and went on to read from the Acts of the Apostles, and even later, at her prompting, from Revelation. My youngest son was the first to get Saved. He asked me to pray with him one night, and together we prayed – and he received the Lord as Saviour. Within a month, his older sister followed, again asking herself for help in receiving the Lord. Together my two children and I began to seek a church to belong to. I had been listening to radio ministry long enough, now faithfully following the teachings of Dr. Charles Stanley of In Touch more than any other. I knew I needed a local church to belong to, I needed prayer and support and I had no idea where to find it, but I was going to try. We lived in a French Catholic town, so to the French Catholic church we went. I don’t speak French, but I prayed throughout the service. I could sense the Lord’s presence, but I couldn’t fellowship with anyone. I tried an Evangelical Mennonite church in a neighbouring town, but found that I’d arrived just when a guest Pastor was coming in to tell the congregation they had no right to fire the last Pastor – and it didn’t feel right. I tried my old Lutheran/Anglican church and found a new lady Pastor there… she resigned during the service, telling us her husband had just accepted a job in New Brunswick. I tried a very small Baptist church, and there the believers were very open and friendly – and I believe absolutely sincere. Their message was one of financial struggle – as they were very small – but thankfully they did also preach from the Word of God. I tried Presbyterian (they were mostly away on a fishing trip that Sunday, and the group left behind seemed very tight knit bunch. They talked about golf and camping a lot), an English speaking Catholic church (I actually helped a young boy up from over my pew when he fainted, and no one said a word to me – even filing out, we were jostled and pushed…. No one wanted to speak to me); Saints, I just went everywhere; and nowhere felt like home. Everything at work was going well – financially speaking, and we were comfortable… but there was no blessing in our house. My kids prayed with me for our family; knowing all too well the condition of it. The Lord bore a strong testimony to them in those days. Time went fast, and soon I had worked a full year back home, finishing at double my quota. I had my job review, which curiously did not go well despite my success, and then left for holidays – going on a cruise with my wife and father and sister, to scatter my mother’s ashes on her favourite island. I left work behind, and tried to enjoy the cruise with my wife – but although we were in an idyllic place, there was no romance between us. I was rebuffed and felt alone. I returned home with my wife more disheartened than ever, having placed some hope in this cruise being a kind of therapy for our relationship that it turned out not to be. At home, there was a message on my answering machine. The message was from a company I had worked alongside the year before – a distributor for the product I’d been managing. They wanted me to call them. They wanted to offer me a job. I didn’t know what to think. Although my review had gone sideways, I was not at all unhappy where I was. Further, I felt I owed them my loyalty – they’d actually hired me back twice already, and I didn’t feel I should leave them again. Nevertheless an unsolicited job offer is something that shouldn’t be ignored, so I went to the Lord in prayer. This time He said very clearly, “Take that job.” I struggled with that; a lot actually, but the Lord was faithful – He was patient with me, and accomplished for me what I was reluctant to do myself. He ensured the owners of that other company wanted me enough that they wouldn’t take no for an answer. I gave my two weeks notice again, for the third time, and left for the new company. Here my story turns, because here the Lord was moving – very suddenly, as He often does. We wait and we pray, and He says “wait”. Now He would reveal something to me. I had been at my new work for maybe two weeks, when I was given a road trip assignment with one of our technicians who we had just hired back after a two-year long sabbatical. I remember that day so clearly. I was driving the van, and picked him up at work. He stepped into my van with a muffin in one hand, and a slim book in the other. We exchanged greetings and hellos, and then I noticed the book a little more, and saw it wasn’t the manual I thought he might be reading. “What’s the book,” I asked. “Well,” he replied (showing me the cover of a HWMR), “I don’t know if you’re a Christian or not…” and that is as far as I let him get. The Lord caused the flood gates inside me to open in that instant, and for over an hour, as I drove, I gave my full tear-filled testimony to this brother in Christ. I had searched for so long to find a soul with whom to share, and here, where I had never thought to look for one, the Lord had placed him right before me! I knew, I knew absolutely that he was the reason the Lord told me to take that job. This was the sovereign arrangement of the Lord, and I embraced him fully as a brother. I hid none of my sins from him, I fully disclosed everything – and we became fast friends, enjoying together in prayer, in reading, in fellowship, in sharing the gospel. I knew I needed fellowship at this point in my life – but I didn’t know how badly I would need it. Shortly after meeting this brother at work, I received from my wife a letter. It wasn’t the kind of letter any husband wants to receive. It was a letter that said, “I don’t love you anymore.”, and “I don’t consider myself to be your wife anymore.”, and “We will live together, but you will leave me alone. I will do whatever I want.” It was a letter that nearly broke me. I remember calling my father when I found that letter, which my wife had snuck into my bag before I left for work. I was in tears and distraught, parked at a Home Depot because I couldn’t drive. My dad was busy though, and even in that condition didn’t have time to come and see me. I called my brother in Christ, and he made time. We met, and we prayed together for my wife. Saints, I will spare you the details – they have become a part of my wife’s Testimony – but suffice it to say that over the next eight months I turned more and more to the Lord – seeking Him at all times, spending time in His Word, listening to the speaking of His people, praying and calling on Him. I testified to my wife when I could, when I felt moved to – and even sometimes when I didn’t (which never proved fruitful). I fellowshipped with my Christian Brother and another brother who was hired on at our work, but did not go to attend their church with them. When I asked about their church, this brother would only say “The church isn’t a building. We are the Church – every believer everywhere; there is only one Church.” I was always welcomed to have supper at his house, or to meet with them on the Lord’s day, but I didn’t go… I didn’t want to rock the boat with my wife… who was very opposed to my growing faith. Yes, over those eight months I prayed for my wife – and the Lord would correct me and lead me to pray properly for her. At first I prayed, “Lord, restore my wife to me!” – but the Lord said “No, you need to pray that I restore your wife to Me.”, Amen Lord! So I would pray that, and then He would say “I cannot reach her because of what she is doing, you need to pray for her to stop.”, and so I would pray for that….. Lord Jesus! My wife grew furious. She began to hate me, but at His prompting I took the headship and insisted that the things she was doing stop. She was caught in a rough place, and had to acquiesce – but she vowed to get revenge. I only told her I loved her, and kept loving her, as I spoke Christ to her. Three months later, after a brief week’s holiday from work, my wife made good on her threat. I came home to find my wife and children gone. When I called her on her cell phone, not suspecting a thing, I learned what she’d done. She took the children, and threatened to never let me see them again if I didn’t leave the house so she could take her things from it. “I have all those letters you wrote to me,” she said – the ones in which I’d witnessed to her. “I’ve shown them to (some old friends of ours), and they think you’re crazy too! I’ll show them to a judge!” “Oh,” I said, “of course they think I’m crazy, they’re not Saved! I saved those letters too, and you are welcome to share them with anyone you want.” I tearfully spoke to my children, and told them I loved them. I told them people were going to say a lot of things to them that weren’t true – but they would know what the truth was. When my wife wanted to speak to me again, I told her there was nothing left to say. That stunned her. She threatened to get a restraining order against me if I wouldn’t leave the house. I told her I wouldn’t leave, and soon after that I hung up. My wife made good on her threat, and I had no contact with her for six weeks. During that time, I found a lawyer (who, it would turn out, was a sister in Christ), and sought custody of my children. I gave copies of all the letters I’d written to my wife to the lawyer as well, so that she could see exactly what I’d said, and to ensure that Judge would get my full testimony. I stood steadfast in prayer with the brothers at work, and at last the Lord opened my eyes to my need of baptism (I’d only been christened as a baby, in the Lutheran church) – and I sought a Baptist church for that (Dr. Stanley’s ministry, with which the Lord spoke to me so often then, being itself Baptist). I went to a large Baptist Church and seminary, and was baptized there by the Pastor after sharing some of my testimony. I still did not meet with the brother and his friends, as they (I reasoned) lived quite far away from my home in the country. The Lord carried me through this tough time, He was so sweet and dear to me. He was my rock and my strength, and I leaned on Him heavily. Four weeks in, my wife began to text me. She opened by saying she went to “our” church – by which I presumed she meant the church in which we were married. She was seeking, it seemed, but I didn’t know if I could trust that to be true. I tested her somewhat, and felt she might be being deceptive – although I certainly prayed she was being real. In that sixth week, my wife contrived to have me pick up the children for a visit directly from her house – which was not allowed with the restraining order still standing – but I picked them up there anyway. Before leaving that night, I told her: “We should talk, before court on Thursday.” Her face lit up, she nodded that yes, she would like to do that. “Come over tomorrow,” she said – “I’ll make you lunch.” I promised I would, and I left her there waving me goodbye. Saints, I tell you truly that what I meant to say to my wife was “I don’t hate you. I wish you all the best. I won’t fight you for anything. You can have it all. I will hold nothing back. I just want to move on.” I had peace, “But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such [cases]: but God hath called us to peace.” 1 Cor 7:15. Fortunately for me, the Lord had other plans. I went to see my wife that day, and she was crying in the kitchen, preparing for me a meal. The Lord, I would see, was faithful. Though at times we are faithless, yet still is He faithful; He cannot deny Himself. Lord Jesus! My wife had spent that night searching the In Touch website forum, where I had been fellowshipping with fellow believers for months prior to her departure, and during – sharing our trials in the quest for fellowship. Perhaps the Lord used some of that testimony, but in reality it was all Him. That day in my wife’s kitchen, she said to me: “I don’t blame you if you never forgive me for what I did to you. But please, I need Jesus Christ in my life, and I don’t know how to get Him. Can you help me with just that? Please? Then you can go, and I won’t hold you back.” My heart, Oh Lord – How great is thy faithfulness! I had prayed for months, and when I had stopped trying to do – You did! I held my wife, and told her that I not only could but had already forgiven – absolutely – and we held hands at her kitchen table, and we prayed together. She called on the name of the Lord that day, and I was given a new wife! The next day, the brother came into my office, and I gave him the news. He wept in my office, for joy. “The Lord is SOOO good.. sooo amazing!” Amen. He is. The brother said immediately that we had to come to his house for a dinner, the whole family – “Now she won’t object,” he reminded me – and the last of my excuses fell away. “No,” I said, “I suppose she won’t.” In all honesty, my wife was terrified of the prospect of meeting these people. “They’ll hate me!” she said, “they know everything I’ve done!” “No,” I told her, “they are over-joyed for you. These people are real believers – these people have been praying for you for months. These people need to meet you. You are a new creation in Christ.” We went that night, and that is where we met our Church. Saints, you already know exactly what manner of Believers we met with that night, although we did not. The brother had never espoused anything particular about the practices of the group with whom he met. He knew all about the ‘churches’ I’d been too, and never spoke a word against them. I knew nothing really of the group with whom he met – but I started to learn that night. Two weeks later we went to our first Home Meeting - a night that consisted of a number of young couples and teenagers, all of whom seemed anxious to meet us. We were fed, we talked, my wife played with the babies. We sang, we prayed… and we felt richer for it. The books on everyone's shelf were entirely written by Nee or Lee. That made me nervous. My Brother spoke of Crystallizations, but he also is a Bible Believing Saint, so while he reads from a Recovery Version, he likewise has other versions on his shelf from which he reads. I asked him about the Recovery Version, and he suggested I buy a copy to see for myself… He’d given me a New Testament at one point, but I enjoyed my KJV and hadn’t really looked at it. After some prayer, I stepped up and bought a full Recovery Version to enjoy… although I’ve always checked it against others at Bible Gateway or against my own NIV and KJV at home…. My wife and I continued to attend the Home Meetings, but we spent our Sundays looking for a right Church for us. Since I’d been baptized at a Baptist Church, we went back to one. I took her the church in which I’d been Baptized, but she felt awkward – and as large a church as it was, she felt a little lost, I think. We tried small Baptist churches in the city, but I found the message was always the same…. A call to repentence, to the acceptance of Christ as Saviour, which was good…. But the message seemed to end there. We were hungry, and really needed more. My Brother watched my church hopping without comment for many weeks, and only after I confessed that I wasn’t finding what I was looking for did he suggest that I might want to come to meet with them on Sundays. “You have to be careful, church hopping with your wife.” He said, “She’s still so new, and it can really confuse her.” I had to admit confusion was exactly what I was feeling, so after speaking to my wife, we decided to meet with the saints. That first Lord's Table Meeting, we walked into a hall to see all of the chairs facing eachother, and no place for a Pastor to stand, and cast a side long look at my wife… ‘what have we walked into here?’ I think I might have mouthed….Saints, after that first meeting, I again saw something I’d been looking for for a very long time. I saw genuine love for Christ. I saw a passion to know Him in a deeper and more meaningful way than I had seen anywhere else before. We found ourselves welcomed in, in a real way…. Not just at the meeting, but at the homes and into the lives of the saints at that church. I had never had that experience before. There was no call for money – there was only a mutual caring. It wasn’t perfect; the Bride is not ready yet. I really wrestled with some things, more and more each day. I felt uncomfortable at the exclusivism of the book shelves; and I have still not made it my practice to read exclusively from the ministry. In fact, the first ministry book I read (no wait, the second – my first was Christ vs Religion) – but my second was Watchman Nee’s “The Orthodoxy of the Church”. Have you read that book? In it, Watchman Nee testifies that the Church in Philadelphia must surely be the Plymouth Brethren… and from them he gained so much he passed on… but it was his description of the Church in Laodicea that really opened my eyes. I have been reading from the books of the Brethren, who seem to have fallen away from what their ancestors had gained. I am reading WTP Wolston’s “Behold the Bridegroom”, and just a few weeks back I picked up a nearly complete set of JN Darby’s “Collective Writings”. If I am to be honest, many times I thought I just couldn’t meet with the local church. As much as I had grown to love my brothers and sisters in Christ, I saw them as being too narrow-minded to really have the Truth. I felt that while they said the Church was composed of all believers everywhere, they had a smaller experience than that. I occasionally had the boldness to speak this, and was never shut down… never shut up. In fact, there were occasions when even the elder members would seem abashed, or confess afterward that there was an improper practice and that Christ needed to gain more in them… Watchman Nee said, in his book “Revive Thy Work”: "Because there are so few Pauls, we must not wait for such spiritual giants to appear. We believe that the time has come for the whole church to work, to save, and to preach the gospel. THE WAY OF THE INDIVIDUAL IS OVER. Indeed, this is the day to follow the way of the body. We must be one heart with God. We criticize denominations (but not the saints in the denominations), and rightly so, denouncing their brand of sacerdotalism; but we are no different in principle from them if the service of the church is monopolized by a worker plus a few elders in the place of all of the brothers and sisters laboring together." This is beautiful, and wonderfully true - but I do not see this practice put in place. It is not merely that there are many who come to the meetings who do not stand and speak. I for one do not believe that it is either practical or possible for all to prophesy - for prophesying is a gift of the Holy Spirit - and not a gift we are all given. Each is promised at least one gift, but this one need not be it. No, the issue is the nature of what is shared - it is largely a regurgitation of the words and experiences of one man - and that is not the Normal Christian Church Life; it is most definitely Abnormal. Did not the Lord Himself say (Matthew 23:8-12) “But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” Watchman Nee was, from what I have read of him, a meek and humble man. He died for Christ, and I see Christ in his living. Brother Lee, on the other hand, was a man who seems to testify concerning himself a great deal. He often spoke of the wonderful things Watchman Nee might have said about him, or speak of how he stands on Nee's shoulders... which positionally would place him above Nee, in a clear demonstration of a hierarchy which we theoretically reject. “And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything He might have the supremacy.” – Colossians 1:18 We saints are all indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and are given the gift of discernment. Children of God, we are to trust in Him and no other. The veil is torn, we have access to the very Throne of God! “one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” - Ephesians 4:5 The Lord spoke through Peter, and said to the Believers “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light.” (1 Peter 2:9) We believe these things, and yet we practice a trademarked Church Life that still puts elders in positions of authority and lets the writings of Lee dominate to the exclusion of all else. How does this make any sense at all? In the 1500's, the Lord raised up a man named Martin Luther to recover "Saved by Grace through Faith". Martin Luther was convicted by the Lord to nail his 95 thesis to the church doors in Wittenburgh. Many were gained for the Lord in those days, and the Recovery was begun in this Reformation.... but the church that was born out of that was not the Church who already had won her crown, the Church in Philadelphia - but the Church who had a name but was dead, the Church in Sardis. Why? Because although Martin Luther recovered so much, he failed to understand that he didn't have a choice. He needed to break clean from Thyatira; from clergy, from hierarchy... and he was scared of doing that. The Church in Sardis was born by default, because Luther was tossed out of the Catholic church. Two kinds of people followed Luther. Many saw Luther as a man they should learn from, and others saw Luther as a man they could learn with. There is a vast distinction between the two. Those who learned from Luther followed his footsteps to where they ended - in an occupied grave. They went no further than Luther did in the Lord's Recovery. Those who learned with Luther though, realized that it wasn't Luther they were to follow - but Christ... and these ones pressed on for the Lord, and recovered MORE. “The pressing issue before us is that everyone must serve. Unless all serve, there is no church. Here, then is today's way: the work must be done by the entire church; it is the church and not just a few individuals, that preaches the gospel. No matter how well you each work, you become a Nicolaitan if you are a substitute for other people in the body of Christ. You may have a ministry but do not, as a consequence, have the church in reality.” In Christ, Neither First nor Last |
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01-06-2011, 05:21 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
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Welcome to the forum! What are marvelous testimony of the Lord's care, and His moving to save your family. As I was reading, a few thoughts came to me. I know many on these forums will tell you to run from the LC's as fast as you can, but I will not. Each church varies from place to place, and being connected to other brothers and sisters is a gift from God. LSM is a ministry based in SoCal, but the church is the believers, the children of God. They have embraced you and your family, through the high and the low, and that is priceless. I first contacted the Recovery in 1973, and in my heart I knew of their genuine love and desire for Christ, and only Christ. These precious ones had just uprooted and migrated to Cleveland, and as sinful and worldly and unsaved as I was, I could tell that there was light and joy shining from their hearts. They had something I did not, and I wanted what they had. Over time WL thrust his ministry and his control upon all the LC's. That was the cause of much decline, but still many precious ones have decided to make the Lord and His Word their first love. I know many saints who are very lukewarm towards LSM, rarely attending any of their gatherings or videos, yet love the Lord and His people dearly. It seems the Lord connected you with these dear saints because He felt this was the best place for Him to shepherd you and your family. Obviously no church is perfect, and all churches have their share of man-made traditions, but I can assure you that nearly all saints will embrace you even if you hold LSM at a distance. For years in the LC's, I got the HWFMR only for the verses. Sometimes, I would have to share in the meetings from the HWFMR, but the teaching was so stale and tasteless, and it was not until I prayed over the verses in the HWFMR that I was anointed and inspired, and that's what I shared. Grace to you brother and peace from God. Please continue to seek the Lord for your family as you have done until now. You mentioned Philadelphia in Revelation ch. 3. They were never praised by the Lord for being "one with the LSM."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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01-07-2011, 08:01 AM
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,824
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
Welcome to the Forum NeitherFirstnorLast, love the name!
Please take a look around at the various boards and threads and participate in the ones that interest you. As far as your situation, I think you should do what is best for your wife and children. I don't know how old your kids are now, but if they are older you should allow them the freedom to meet and befriend young Christians from the various fellowships in your area. The Lord will lead them.
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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01-07-2011, 08:55 AM
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#4 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 348
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
Thank you Ohio.... Thank you.
I was writing a follow up to my first post here last night, and somehow it got dumped off the system before I was able to post it. Praise the Lord, there was some bitterness in it that needn't be spoken. You are right, of course - the Lord did place me here to shepherd me and my family; and I love the saints in Christ dearly. They have become our family in every sense of the word. After being Saved, my wife completely lost her family; they rejected her utterly. Funny, they didn't mind her when she lived in sin, but now as a new creation in Christ the Enemy has really put a hate in their hearts for her. If it weren't for the Saints in our Local Church, we would likely never have made it. And yet I struggle, as so many of you did. Maybe my issue is, I have always seen 'problems' in the Church, and my response has ALWAYS been to leave, because "my relationship with the Lord was greater". When I've had a chance to stand for the Lord, I've sat down, and said nothing. This isn't humility, as I sometimes like to think, it's cowardice. It has no place. We are all to speak as we feel lead, and I need to give Him the headship to speak as He would. Saints still in the Local Church, Stop regarding man, whose life breath is in his nostrils. For of what value is he considered to be? Isaiah 2:22 Saints, Watchman Nee - whose work we regard and whose work we publish, said "Anything that comes from the hand of man is dead, it is finished and it cannot give life. Only the Word of God can give life." As much as we can enjoy a life study, a message, it is no different from a sermon, is it? It is something that may be good, but it is not the Word of God. Will you be like the Lutherans, who followed Luther - or the Christians, who followed Christ? Saints, if you a consider a brother to be wise, and admire him, and want to grow to be like him, then you need to consider how you can honestly achieve that. The wisest men among us did not come to such wisdom by self-contemplation, studying their own thoughts and works. No, by their own testimony they grew up in Christ through the Word. When we speak of eating and drinking Christ, we do not mean that we fall upon His person as ghouls to consume Him - we mean that we drink the pure, guileless milk of the Word! We eat the meat of the Word! Christ is the Living Word! This is no mystery! If a brother grows up in Christ, and gains some maturity by feasting at the Lord's Table, should we who wish to also gain not want to feast at that same Table with Him? We are called to, Christ wants to YOU to know Him so well as that too! Do not settle instead to lie beneath the chair of the brother who is feeding, and to eat only what he has already processed and digested. Saints, please - Christ is calling: Will you be an Overcomer? There is no such thing as an exclusive club of Overcomers... only a remnant will make it. The Church in Philadelphia was warned, because they might lose the crown they had already gained. That is not an idle warning. The Church in Laodicea resembles Philadelphia in many ways... If you haven't read Watchman Nee's "The Orthodoxy of the Church", published by LSM, then I encourage you to. See how Nee identified the characteristics of the final Church to appear before the Lord's return... the Church (which He still calls His Church) at the end of the age. Ask yourself, who is Nee describing here? http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...2%2BI%20%20%0A There are overcomers from each of the seven Churches, Saints; and there are also a lot of tares sown in with the wheat. We cannot judge who is who, because the Lord told us that we might tear out the wheat with the tares if we do not let them first mature; and only then will the tares be gathered and burned. Only Jesus Christ is Lord! In Christ, Neither First nor Last |
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01-07-2011, 03:12 PM
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#5 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,105
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
Dear NeitherfirstnorLast,
I would not encourage you to leave the LRC, I agree with you that to leave because you see things you disagree with could certainly be cowardice, and if that is your sense in your spirit then I agree with your spirit on this. I would also counsel you not to "preach" at the saints. The Lord tells us to judge ourselves, not others. Rather I would encourage you to speak the truth in all boldness and in love, building up the saints. Be fearless, be a man. For example, rather than "preaching" that there are overcomers in all the lampstands, why not share a testimony about fellowship and help you may have received from a brother or sisters fellowship that doesn't meet with the LRC. That conveys the point more powerfully, without the taint of preaching, and requires quite a bit of boldness. And if you do get asked to leave, remember, there are overcomers in all of the lampstands. You can then walk out with a clear conscience knowing you spoke the truth in love. |
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01-07-2011, 04:35 PM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
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I have read Orthodoxy of the Church by Nee, in fact, I read it during finals week, and couldn't put it down. While I still treasure the book, I have moderated my eschatological views somewhat after reading Nigel Tomes article, EXAMINING LSM’s ESCHATOLOGY—REVELATION’S 7 CHURCHES -- here -- http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...read.php?t=758 I also find the discussion of "overcomers" to be a hindrance to fellowship, and in many cases a real source of discouragement to the saints, i.e. "I could never be an overcomer." Revelation says, "to him who overcomes," identifying actions rather than identifying a class of believers. The Recovery is great at saying we have no hierarchy, and we are all brothers without a pastor, and then create new classes such as overcomer, full-timer, and coworker. It's so wonderful to hear about your wife's salvation, yet so sad to hear about her family's reaction. Please do not fuel the flames by "arming" yourself with judgments as I did towards my parents. After the Revelations training, I "unloaded" all that I was taught about the Great Whore, Babylon, idolatry, Catholicism, etc. Looking back, it seems the saints were far more interested in my "coming out of her" (Rev 18.4) and into the LC, than they were concerned about the salvation of my family. Please do your best to help your wife have a kind, loving, prayerful, and longsuffering attitude towards her family. This will bring more grace to her, and eventually conviction to her family. Concerning the LSM, they love to do stupid things like lawsuits, strange teachings, etc. and then force all their member churches to side with them unreservedly. We have no allegiance to a ministry. Our connection is with the Head. Do your best to keep the church as people, believers in Christ, and children of God. They are your family. Your family is not some organization called "the church in blank-blank, which is affiliated with the ministry of WN and WL," as many LC websites declare. If you can stay connected to the Lord in fellowship and to the saints in a spiritual friendship, you will be saved from the trappings of organizational structures. Much grace to you brother.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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01-09-2011, 11:42 AM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 348
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
Good morning Ohio,
There's been a snow storm up here this weekend, so we find ourselves not making the trip for the Lord's Table meeting today, but instead getting together with the some of the saints to continue with the Video training messages. When it comes to LSM's eschatological views, I must confess that I do not fully embrace everything that has been professed either; however, I take the Word given to Daniel literally: "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." Daniel 12:9b The Lord's ways are higher than our ways, His thought higher than our thoughts: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." Mark 13:32 What I wrote, about checking out what was written by Nee in the Orthodoxy of the Church, I wrote not to the saints who have left LSM - but to those who remain. What Nigel wrote is perhaps not incorrect, however - to ask the saints to embrace this is to ask them to drastically shift their paradigm. This is difficult for them to do, especially for those raised in LSM churches - those who know ONLY LSM's particular brand of Christianity. LSM teaches that Nee was the "Seer of the Divine Revelation", and that Lee "Stands of the Shoulders of Nee." In essence, they are saying that these two men were infallible. That what they wrote was as divinely inspired as the gospel. If the saints come to believe that something written by one of these two could be wrong, it topples not only their belief in LSM; but may well topple their belief in their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. This statement may sound strong, but I can testify to it's validity. I myself, when I saw the true condition of the Lutheran church I attended as a child, had my faith shaken to its core.... and haven't many who have been cast aside or left behind after the turmoil likewise had this experience? The faith of the saints in the LSM churches has been misplaced - they hope not only in Christ, but also in the ministry. In fact, they are taught to believe that Christ CANNOT return until LSM gets it right - that the Lord is waiting for a mature Bride, and since we fellowship with no one else outside the LSM churches, then surely we believe by default that WE are the Bride working towards maturity, and we can only attain it alone. There is no room in this theology for God to cause the growth. We speak of the "Lord's Recovery" - but this term by definition acknowledges that the Recovery is being done by the Lord - and not by a man-made organization called Living Stream Ministries. We need to not only profess that, but to live that out. The Lord IS Recovering much, but He isn't doing among LSM churches alone. In fact, if what Nee wrote in "The Orthodoxy of the Church" is to be believed, then He isn't Recovering anything any more in the Local Churches. If you read what Nee wrote about Laodicea, you will have to admit that the church that fits this description is the LSM local church, and no other. If saints within the LSM churches read this book, they surely must see this. Nee paints the perfect picture of our church. That is why I ask the saints to please read it. There is hope: the Lord still calls Laodicea His church - although He says that it is says it is rich but is poor and blind and naked. Although He says that He will not use it anymore. Saints, I am a late comer to the Church life, who only hears tales of the glory days. I have come to know a remnant, who are bruised and battered by the turmoil. Who can no longer stand and function in any meetings because they have been stumbled by the LSM leadership (and it is a leadership saints - but call it eldership if it soothes your concience). I have heard saints say "I never thought that could happen in the Lord's Recovery." These dear ones, who still come to the Lord's Table meetings and hold out some hope for a return to what was, have not seen what caused us to lose the blessing... and we've surely lost the blessing. Brother Willy Wise gave a conference in Calgary this past fall, and therein he asked the saints in attendance: "How many of you are new to the church life, just here brought in this year?". Not a single hand was raised. "Well then, how many of you have only been here for two years?" Again, no one rose from their seat. "Huh, well... for how many here is this their first conference?" One sister raised a hand, only one. "You shall know a tree by it's fruit." Where is the fruit? Brother Lee asked this as well. If we abide in Him, He will abide in us. We cannot bear fruit alone, for we are but branches. If there is no fruit, can we really not understand why? With Love in Christ to all the saints in all the churches, Neither First nor Last |
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01-09-2011, 08:28 PM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,693
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
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WN says that Laodicea speaks of the exclusive brethren who became degraded. You are right that it applies to the LC's as well. The Lord says He will "shake that which can be shaken," and His shaking in the LC's have brought many back to Christ.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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01-09-2011, 08:44 PM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 348
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
Good evening Saints,
I enjoyed my time with the saints today - and the video training message was good; we are working on Isaiah 53. I was soothed today, because within the speaking there was no talk of condemnation against those on the outside of our group - those who we must confess are still one with us in Christ. I want to reiterate that same declaration. Saints, when I sound off so strongly against the hierarchy of the ministry, it is not against the individuals that I stand. Rather, it is, I hope, against hypocrisy itself... and I do not do so because I think I am better, or have a superior understanding of scripture, but because I long to see the Body built up in Christ. Are we not commanded to admonish our brothers and sisters, just for the sake of that building? I do see the fruit of the Spirit in the brothers and sisters who have embraced me in the Local Church. I am shown sincere love, experience joy, feel the peace, am treated with long-suffering kindness, and feel richer for the goodness and faithfulness of the dear saints who have become my friends. Lord Jesus! I enjoy my time with many Christians, and have been blessed to have time for fellowship with many different groups... and I agree with you ZNP: I ought not preach at the saints, but demonstrate to them the Oneness we all have in Christ by sharing with them my experiences with those outside of our division... even my experience with you all. Untohim; you are right - and I would love for our children to experience fellowship outside of our sphere in order that they would taste more fully the Body.... that is not always easy to do and discern... but as the Spirit leads. Lord, thank You for the fellowship You have provided me here. Lord, I want to pray that You continue Your work in all of us. Gain what You are after, and build us all up into Your Church. In Jesus Precious Name I Pray, Amen |
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01-10-2011, 06:48 AM
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#10 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
NFL,
Of late I have become weary with long posts on these forums and tend to skip over them. But I printed out all your posts last night (still an old fashioned, hard copy in my hand kind of guy) and read them. Enjoyed it very much. When Ohio talked about those who would tell you to run as fast as you can out of the Local Church, I'm sure I was one of those he had in mind. But I can't say that to you. Clearly your testimony of the Lord's speaking to you is very real, and you have been able to maintain that throughout your Living Stream Church experience. More often than not people check their discernment at the door of the LSM Church, and pick up the corporate, Witness Lee fashioned conscience instead. I am so happy to see that you have not done that. Not that my admonition would make any difference, but I encourage you to continue to stay where you are with eyes wide open. Surely persecution will come; especially once you show up on the radar of national leadership. But I feel good about your walk before the Lord and your willingness to obey His voice. Welcome to the forum, and the Lord be with you. Roger |
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01-15-2011, 10:12 AM
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 348
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
I was ....I don't know if admonished is the right word, or attacked, by a sister last night. It wasn't the first time it's happened really, with this one. Somehow she makes assertions and, when I offer a different word, she gets very... agressive. I don't think I come across as offensive, and yet she seems very offended. Then she goes away and comes back and apologizes. Lord help me, I don't mean to speak anything but what I have seen; and if I am the one who is wrong, won't You show me that, Lord? Lord Jesus, I've asked You... begged You, to keep me in the Truth. Lord, I need You to wash me and preserve me and to convict me where I am wrong. Lord, I need You to silence me where I must be silence, and give me words to speak where You would have me speak. Please Lord, I feel so isolated from these others. You I enjoy, but where is Your Bride of Worth? Where is the fellowship I want so much to enjoy? What is going on?
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01-15-2011, 10:45 AM
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#12 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 48
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
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The fellowship you seek was preserved here: Galatians 2:9. Sealed among the nations for the day of redemption. Paul's work in the apostolic age produced seven golden lampstands appearing to John in Revelation 1-3. From Ephesus to Laodicea now conditions manifest. It is difficult to doubt condition of LSM is Laodicea, even in your report. But the Lord rebukes and disciplines as many as He loves. Behold, He stands at the door and is knocking! |
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01-15-2011, 12:48 PM
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#13 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,105
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
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01-16-2011, 02:56 PM
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#14 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 348
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
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I came before the Lord this morning in prayer, and, wanting to read and enjoy from His Word, asked Him where to turn. He lead me, curiously, to 1 Kings, Chapter 12 - and this is what I read: "Thus says Jehovah, You shall not go up and wage war with your brothers the children of Israel. Every man return to his house; for this matter is of Me." Amen Lord. This matter of division is of YOU, and we are not to war with our brothers. Seeing this, I went back to the beginning of 1 Kings, as I must confess I have not yet opened this book in my RcV (although I have read it before in my KJV). I wanted to read through the context in which the Lord spoke this to Rehoboam. So much did the Lord open up to me this morning, and I want to share what I saw here, because this is the very first time I have ever seen this: At the beginning of 1st Kings, we see again David - weak with old age, and bed ridden. To warm his bones, a young virgin is brought to him; Abishag the Shunammite (whose name in Hebrew, means "My father strays" - what significance in this name...). Through plotting, David's son Adonijah begins his bid for the throne... and in doing so slights both Solomon and Nathan, God's prophet.... but through plotting, Nathan and Bath-Sheba likewise work together to accomplish the succession for Solomon. God's will in the matter of succession is not consulted, but it appears rather, sides are chosen based on each mans will to gain the most for himself... Nathan, in dealing with the King, pays homage to him - even by placing his face upon the ground (1 Kings 1:23-24) and calls him "lord". Is this the position a man who manipulates his king ought to take? Should Nathan, as a prophet of God, actually prostrate himself like that to another man - or address another man as "lord"? I don't feel clear to answer that question, but it arises.... David is successfully manipulated by Nathan and Bath-Sheba, and he calls for his son Solomon, and gives him the kingdom of Judah and of Israel. He goes on to instruct Solomon in the things he ought to do first: And here we get to see what is really on David's heart these days.... because he strays: David's first instructions are good: "Keep the commandment of Jehovah your God by walking in His ways...." (1 Kings 2:3)... but he doesn't ask this for God or for God's children, the people of Israel, but rather for himself: "That Jehovah may establish His word which he spoke concerning me..." (1 Kings 2:4) David follows this commandment, which is laced with more than questionable motives, with another; a call for vengeance on an old enemy (is not vengeance the Lord's?) "...you know what Joab the son of Zeruiah did to me... do not let his grey hairedhead go down to Sheol in peace." (1 Kings 2:5-6) Finally, David tells Solomon of the situation with Shimei the son of Gera, to whom David openly acknowledges that he swore an oath to him by Jehovah saying "I shall not kill you with a sword."... Nevertheless, David harbors resentment and unforgiveness in his heart for this one, and so he urges Solomon by his wisdom to find a way around this agreement; and to "not hold him guiltless... bring his grey-haired head down to Sheol with blood." What a dark legacy to leave your son. Solomon is instituted as King while David lives, and immediately we see the truth in the Word of God: "The sins of the father shall be visited upon the son, yea unto the seventh generation." Solomon's first act as King is not to Praise God, or seek His will and counsel. No, it is to establish his own authority, and consolidate his power. First, he tells his mother that she may ask what she will ask; "I will not refuse you." But this is a lie, for when she asks for Abishag on behalf of Adonijah, Solomon breaks his promises and flies into a temper: In wrath, he commits fratricide in order to establish to any other siblings he may have - that he will tolerate no contenders. (1 Kings 2:20-25). Unwilling to tolerate competition isn't limited to his own brothers. Next, Solomon immediately sets his sights on the priest Abiathar - a man of whom Solomon says "you bore the Ark of the Lord Jehovah before David my father and you suffered affliction in all that my father suffered."... and yet Solomon excommunicates him, and places him under house arrest under penalty of death... a sentence he will execute three years later, although he would lay the blame for it on Abiathar's own head. Finally, Joab hears of what's going on and realizes that he's going to be in the way too... so he flees to the Altar of God and lays hands on it's horns; seeking forgiveness and absolution. It is denied. Solomon sends Benaniah to kill Joab. Benaniah is unwilling to profane the Tent of Jehovah, and asks Joab to come out so that his sentence can be executed, but Joab refuses, saying "No; I will rather die here". Benaniah returns to Solomon, not knowing what to do; but he is only sent back. Solomon has no qualms about profaning the Tent of Jehovah: "Do as he has spoken, and strike him down..." Solomon says. God is silent throughout all of this; and no one asks Him about any of it. In Chapter three, we see that the first thing that Solomon does after consolidating his power is to take for himself a wife from a daughter of Pharoah in Egypt, and not from among his own people. Why does he do this, in clear violation of God's law? Again, he wishes to secure his own power, by forging an alliance with a nation that in all typology typifies the sinful world itself. Next, Solomon goes up to the high places and sacrifices 1,000 burnt offerings to the Lord. Why does he do this? We are not told. Why does he go to the high places to do it, instead of to the Altar in the Tent of Jehovah? Solomon is not a priest, does he have the right to do this? Saul certainly didn't, and was punished for that foolishness. What is going on here? The high places are where the pagan Canaanites sacrificed to their 'gods'. (1 Kings 3:1-4). At last, we hear from God; here is what he says to Solomon in a dream: "Ask what I should give to you." That's it. Not, "Solomon, this is what I would have you do." Not, "Here my servant, what I would say:" No. What the Lord speaks here is not an offer of a pleased Father, it is a test; and in Solomon's case, I have come to see, it is a trap. "Ask what I should give to you." Now, I have always been taught that Solomon gave a great answer to this question. I myself have prayed the prayer of Solomon many times, and today the Lord caused me to repent of it; because He has opened my eyes to what Solomon really was asking for here: "...Give therefore to Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people and to discern between good and evil." (1 Kings 3:9). Do you see that? Sounds good, doesn't it? What's he really asking for here though? He's asking to be a judge over God's people... but isn't it God's place to judge? Further, he isn't asking for God to lead him, he's asking to eat from the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so that he can DECIDE FOR HIMSELF. He is REJECTING God as his judge, as the light to his feet and lamp to his path, but wants instead the wisdom/knowledge to make it all on his own. I believe what Solomon should have asked for, was faith like Abrahams. If he had that kind of faith, he could have been used of God to do some tremendous works.... God honors his prayer; and tops it off with more wealth than Solomon could imagine. Curious blessing, considering "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven". Lord, preserve us. Lord, when we pray foolishly - forgive us; I do not want my foolish prayers answered. So what happens next? Well, according to everything I've ever heard or read, what happens next is a tremendous blessing to Israel and even later to us: Solomon was chosen to build the Temple of God.... right? Well, consider what Scripture tells us; and consider who Solomon sounds like when he says "I intend to build a house for the name of Jehovah my God according to what Jehovah spoke to David my father, saying, 'Your son, whom I will put on your throne in your place, he will build a house for My name.'" Wow. Solomon, true to form - usurps a word God spoke to David for himself. Was he right to do so? Tell me, do the Psalms of David prophecy of his son Solomon, or his 'son', Christ? Was not Christ called the "Son of David"? To whom was promised David's throne forever and forever? Not Solomon, but to CHRIST! Solomon doesn't ask God whether he should build him a "house" or not, nor does he ask what form such a house should take, or of what material to build it, or where to locate it. He simply usurps a promise and begins to plan construction all on his own. Read what is recorded, Solomon planned the whole design and constructon of the temple on his own. He fills it with graven images, and hand-cut stones (against the clear dictates of God who always wanted natural stone, not man-carved stone on His altars). What does God say about this, well - He says nothing until construction is at least half-way complete - then he says this: "As for this house that you are building, IF you walk in My statutes and execute My ordinances and keep all My commandments, by walking in them, THEN I will establish My word with you, which I spoke to David your father; And I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel, and I will not forsake My people Israel." Listen to that! First, the Lord refers to the Temple NOT as HIS house, but as "this" house. Secondly, He offers Solomon not a promise but an ultimatum: IF you do this, I will do that. But Solomon hasn't been keeping all of God's commandments; we've already seen that... and he's not about to change his ways. So the implication is that God will NOT do His part either. Further, even if Solomon DID walking in God's ways, He never says He will live in this house that Solomon is building - rather, that He will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel. God rejected the Temple from BEFORE day one. ...to be continued... In Christ, Neither First nor Last |
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01-16-2011, 03:44 PM
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#15 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,105
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
Well that was an enjoyable read, thank you.
I think to understand what is truly very confusing we need to consider a few principles. The Lord said "if you have known me you have seen my father". The children express the father. David has a spiritual, soulish and fleshly side. We can see this in his children. All the children involved in the rebellion were the fleshly expression. Solomon, the "wisest man on Earth" was the soulish expression. Finally, it is Nathan, who represents David's spiritual side. It is through Nathan that the prophecy to David is fulfilled (Mary is descended from Nathan). The soul is supposed to let the spirit take the lead, but as you have so clearly pointed out repeatedly Solomon usurps God's authority. As you have pointed out Solomon assumes that the prophecy will be fulfilled through him, but he is mistaken and his lineage is cut off from the promise. However, Joseph is descended from Solomon and so through marriage it is reunited with God's purpose. Although there is nothing that will specifically tell you that Nathan the prophet is David's son, there is compelling evidence. First, the Bible tells us that all of David's other sons were caught up in rebellion, I would expect that would have disqualified all of them from the promise. Second, the first time we hear of Nathan the prophet he has direct access to the king (we don't know why). Read that story again and imagine it is a young son of David talking to his father. Third, we hear a lot about many of David's sons, if Nathan the prophet is not David's son then why don't we hear about his son Nathan who is a more important figure than Solomon (why would Jesus be descended through him rather than the other sons?) |
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01-19-2011, 07:27 PM
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#16 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 348
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
Praise the Lord, brother! I hadn't considered this Nathan as that Nathan! Perhaps the evidence is not concrete, but it is very compelling. I always thought it odd that a commoner - even a prophet of God - would dare to speak to King David as Nathan did. I really found it surprising that he didn't even seem to consider he might lose his head for that. It certainly seems as though this relationship might be why... it also illustrates the significance of Nathan being left out of the counsel of Adonijah as well (1 Kings 1:10), for why else would Nathan be so concerned with the possible succession of this particular son of David?
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11-24-2018, 03:01 PM
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#17 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,631
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Re: My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...
Quote:
My point is this: Yes, "Christianity" is arguably a mess, and this allows sketchy groups like the LC to do business. But the answer is not to leave a group or join a group or start a group or give up on finding a group. The answer is to boil down the gospel message into its indissoluble core, at which point we can function in any group the Lord Jesus puts us in, whether on a street corner with unbelievers or invited to the Big City Anglican Church where the dude is up front with a mitred cap and a curved staff, and he's waving at us like he's the pope. You know, that slow, spiritual benediction wave. Or wherever. The gospel is real, it doesn't change. Jesus said, "Seek and you will find." It is not only a promise but a command; it doesn't change. Anyway, this was a great testimony & I'm so very glad nfnl put it down. Everyone has a journey and the journey is better when we share.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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