The LCS Factor

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

I have learned that among those who grew up in the LCS many face social issues. Some that I am familiar with are: alcoholism, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, divorce, paying for sex i.e. engaging in services of prostitutes, infidelity, porn addiction.

My guess is that once the hypocrisy of the leaders became well known something "snapped" in a lot of the youth. A subculture that was restricting them thus became a culprit in their lustful pursuits. This dynamic coupled with the mainstream media bombardment gave license for their behavior.

My question is: what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by djohnson

My guess is that once the hypocrisy of the leaders became well known something "snapped" in a lot of the youth. A subculture that was restricting them thus became a culprit in their lustful pursuits. This dynamic coupled with the mainstream media bombardment gave license for their behavior.

My question is: what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?

djohnson, you can't hold the hypocrisy of the leaders responsible for the actions of others. We all have free will. To set our mind on the spirit or on the flesh.
How would you know of the restrictions? How I view the past in retrospection is as this: you can't paint everything with a broad brush.
Some parents had the liberty to raise their children in a normal Christian home.
Some parents were more concerned what other brothers and sisters thought in how they raised their children.
Some children had a heart for the Lord at a young age.
Some children never seemed to.
Some brothers and sisters who minister to the young people did so with compassion while others might have ministered with the law.
As to the behaviors that you allude to djohnson, each person is different in personality, character, etc.
As for the leaders, I believe most young people and their parents were unaware of the hypocrisy among some leaders.
Do you think the local church system was such a reigning influence that it caused young people to snap? I disagree. I'd say it's a combination of whom young people kept as friends, not having supportive adults to go to with their troubles, unable to cope with peer pressure, etc.
Conversely take the opposite of each example and you'll have reasons why young people didn't snap and were kept preserved.

Terry

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Terry I totally agree that there are multiple factors that influence a persons behavior and that no one factor can be pointed to as the one main influencing source. But I do not agree that the hypocrisy in the LCS among the leaders has no effect. If you are a young person doing your best to refrain from out of marriage sex and learned what was going on at LSM with Lee's son it might stumble you don't you think?

[TLFisher]

djohnson, here's what I believe, what misconduct there might have been was covered over. Historically treated as rumor. Suppose a young person did know or was affected by misconduct. It's not necessarily going to cause one to stumble. In Children's meetings through high school, you do learn the Bible. You do get to know God objectively and hopefully become regenerated and baptized at some point. So most young people who have a heart for the Lord would know such behavior is inappropriate and unfit for the Christian Church life. However what I think would stumble a young person is if their parents or a trusted brother or sister knew and gave a free pass.

Terry

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Terry I beg to differ. Although they may know the behavior is unacceptable the fact that Lee's son gets a free pass and a cover up story to boot gives them license. If this were not true why does the bible so often exhort leaders not to stumble the flock?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by djohnson

My guess is that once the hypocrisy of the leaders became well known something "snapped" in a lot of the youth. A subculture that was restricting them thus became a culprit in their lustful pursuits. This dynamic coupled with the mainstream media bombardment gave license for their behavior.

My question is: what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?

The continued judgments on all of christianity damaged many. Pride creeps in so subtlely. Somehow the young people feel "OK," just because all other Christians are so bad. And for those who couldn't or wouldn't survive in the LC, all other avenues were closed. The teachings of LSM purposely prevented many young Christians from seeking fellowship with "outsiders." As bad as the world is, christianity was far worse, or so we thought. Often I heard "raw heathen" appraised higher than our "religious" brothers in christianity.

I remember one young people gathering with one of our young sisters dressed somewhat immodestly. She was silent until someone mentioned christianity, and then she ignited into a blast upon all christianity. How does those teachings help young people grow in Christ and love people?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I remember one young people gathering with one of our young sisters dressed somewhat immodestly. She was silent until someone mentioned christianity, and then she ignited into a blast upon all christianity. How does those teachings help young people grow in Christ and love people?

That is sooo sad Ohio!!!

My .05 worth is this: Many of the troubles the young people are experiencing in the LC are no different than the children from Christian parents outside the LC.

One observation I have made is parents don't bless their children!!!!

Growing up, my mother & father blessed each of us kids every night before going to bed. It may have been a ritual, but nonetheless, a blessing. I have 2 brothers and though my brothers are not walking with the LORD..don't KNOW Him, we all have God's protection over us. We've all been through rough times but I see God's hand over each and everyone of us.

We also don't bless each other! We NEED to! If we can't find it in our hearts to 'love' one another especially those who have hurt us deeply, then the least we can do is ask the LORD to bless them. It goes against our natural grain but that is the experience of being crucified with Christ...dying to self.

To GOD be the GLORY!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The continued judgments on all of christianity damaged many. Pride creeps in so subtlely. Somehow the young people feel "OK," just because all other Christians are so bad. And for those who couldn't or wouldn't survive in the LC, all other avenues were closed. The teachings of LSM purposely prevented many young Christians from seeking fellowship with "outsiders." As bad as the world is, christianity was far worse, or so we thought.

Ohio, I think you caught the nub. The LC young person who drifts into the world is caught in a double bind. On the one hand the snares of the flesh have them, and on the other hand the subtle and largely unconscious teachings of elitism pounded into them from day one frustrate them in getting aid.

I remember leaving the LSM system and being in the world, trying to get help, trying to "fellowship"; it was hard because everytime someone quoted a verse I could quote six. I was simultaneously all smashed up and "holier than thou"...I was a real mess! God put some people in my path who didn't have as many verses as me, not so "systemic" in theology, but they had a LOT more reality, and I wasn't so stupid that I couldn't realize it. So I humbled myself, and began to listen. Eventually I realized my "airtight system" wasn't so airtight, and thus was a contributor in my mess and my inability to break free.

The "double bind" is a terrible, paralyzing situation. You can't go forward, can't go back. My suspicion is that many are trapped in this way.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I remember one young people gathering with one of our young sisters dressed somewhat immodestly. She was silent until someone mentioned christianity, and then she ignited into a blast upon all christianity. How does those teachings help young people grow in Christ and love people?

Hi Ohio. This was not my experience as a young person in the locla churches. I have no recollection of any of my peers being negative towards Christianity in this way.

Terry

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The continued judgments on all of christianity damaged many. Pride creeps in so subtlely. Somehow the young people feel "OK," just because all other Christians are so bad. And for those who couldn't or wouldn't survive in the LC, all other avenues were closed. The teachings of LSM purposely prevented many young Christians from seeking fellowship with "outsiders."

Ohio, is it teachings or is it attitudes towards non-recovery Christianity? The attitude as a young brother was Christianity was superficial. The concept was if a Christian was serious about the Lord, they were in the local churches. With a non-recovery Christian, the concept was they only went to service as a matter of tradition and what teachings non-Recovery Christians recieved paled in comparison to the recovery.
There was a brother several years older than I. Once he went off to school at USC, I never saw him again. Years later after I had finished my college education and reentered the local churches in metro-Seattle, I wondered what happened to this brother. I'd never see him at the SoCal conferences. One year I was able to locate this brother. His testimony to me was in Christianity he found as many Christians serious for the Lord as he grew up knowing in the local churches.
So in this way labeling non-Recovery Christianity as "poor poor Christianity" in a way does create a barrier in fellowship.

Terry

[bookworm]

Once again I will state that I have not personally attacked Ohio. Perhaps he takes it this way because I quoted him on post #899. In that post I followed up on his noting that Martin Luther and Darby had abused people. My point in that post was to point out that persons should be free to share their experiences of abuse without being put down for doing so. I was merely pointing out how in my opinion this thread had digressed due to people not wanting to face the facts of abuses that have occurred in the LC and feeling compelled to defend the LC.

[Ohio]

Bookworm, I, and all others I'm sure, agree wholeheartedly that "persons should be free to share their experiences of abuse." I also have some sad stories of my own to tell, but some are just too personal, and this becomes compounded by the fact that I am no longer as "anonymous" as I once was. The flip side to anonymity is the issue of credibility -- how can the details be verified. But ... news outlets do this all the time, quoting "sources who spoke only on the condition of anonymity."

Once again, I will say that I have not seen any here who were "not wanting to face the facts of abuses." This statement is just not fair. To ask questions in order to "get to the bottom of things" is not denial, but a quest for the truth. It is also the just prerogative of all those involved, is it not?

When it comes to "defending the LC," try to see this from another perspective. Have you heard of "guilt by association?" There are tens of thousands of Christians involved in this statement. They all are as different as the posters on this forum. Nobody is "just like me" or are they "just like you." When I read "sweeping, condemning generalizations," I am forced to speak up, and that appears to some like you that I am "defending the LCS." In actuality, I am only protesting prejudices and stereotypes.

Peace

[John]

Originally Posted by djohnson

I have learned that among those who grew up in the LCS many face social issues. Some that I am familiar with are: alcoholism, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, divorce, paying for sex i.e. engaging in services of prostitutes, infidelity, porn addiction.
...

My question is: what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?

You ask what role the Local Church System played in causing those who grew up in the LCs to fall into sin, especially sexual sin.

I think that one reason is this: Witness Lee was a tyrant. He only cared about himself. This caused him to create a church system that was devoid of love. He had almost no care for a proper Christian family, and almost never spoke on the topic. His messages emphasized being zealous for imbibing the processed God for growth into a corporate god. His actions behind the scenes also show that he was caught up with the love of money.

With this dark background in place, what would we expect to find in his offspring. His sons exemplify the lust for power, sex, and money. This is the way the leader of the movement walked, and his sons reflected that. Now, on to his spiritual sons. What do we see in many of the leaders. I don’t need to recount the examples. Both forums are replete with some of the sins of some of the leaders.

What happens to children who are not loved? What happens when children realize that their father and mother love Witness Lee and the Local Church more than them? Those children do not grow up properly. They become angry and fall into destructive behaviors. I’m guessing that many are doing those things hoping to find love. (For children looking for love, many do fall into sexual sins.)

In my previous post, I responded to the mention of the James Barber situation in The Church in Oklahoma City. Here was a man who looked to Witness Lee as a father figure. He ignored needs of his wife and sons while he pursued his love of himself by trying to impress Lee. When Lee abused him in trainings, he returned home to abuse his family. Now, the sons have difficult lives because of the lack of care by their father.

I also mentioned about another former Local Church leader who mistreated his children. Even though they are all out of the Local Churches now, the system is not out of the father. The children still struggle because of his ongoing mistreatment. For him, all is well because he is pursuing God. He still dwells in Lee’s realm of unreality, floating around in the clouds of high visions and so forth. Meanwhile, his own family is suffering on the earth.

There is a reason why Paul issued some of those practical commands in his epistles. It was so we could know if our spirituality was real. For example:

And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. (Eph 6:4)

For many Local Church fathers, the verse in Ephesians, if we bothered to pay any attention to it at all, didn’t have the word nurture in it. It only had admonition. And, for still others, who basically ignored their children, it didn’t even have the word admonition.

It may be like the “preacher’s kid” phenomenon, where the son of the preacher was the most rebellious one in the church. Well, in the LC, it was as if every child was a preacher’s kid. Most of the adults were 100 percent committed to the program, and it was a 24/7 program.

When I was in The Local Church, children were just as expendable as adults. I don’t recall fathers taking time out to spend with their children. We were too busy in the Lord’s army. We gave everything and everyone for the cause.

It was a sad and loveless place, a very abnormal place for children.

[countmeworthy]

John,

Your post rang of truth in it. So much sad and tragic truth. The LC had a lot of deception in it...'Love the brethren'...'Love the CHURCH'...'Love the 'ministry' of LEE. :rollingeyes2:

Lee's kids suffered from his own parental abuse...that includes Phillip. The sins Phillip committed may have been a way to show his disdain for the way his father raised him and his siblings. I'm not excusing his actions but this post made me wonder if Phillip and his siblings resented his father..who gave his life to this ministry..his own...placing his family on the back burner. Then to 'make up' for his lack of being a good husband and father, handed some of that 'reign' to Phillip..and making sure the kids & grandkids had plenty of $$ to live off.

Mr Lee had EIGHT children. Rarely did he mention his children or his wife/wives (to my knowledge). He was a widower who later married again. Frankly, he should have remained single!

LORD have mercy !!!

Carol

[Hope]

When we consider how the children of Christian parents get into trouble in their teen age and adult years, it is important to never forget that there is an enemy. Do not forget Adam and Eve. They had the very best care from the very creator God. They had a walk and talk with Him everyday. They were not neglected and the creator did not make any mistakes. Yet look what happened! Why? Well there is an enemy.

In my life both as a Christian and in my profession, I have interacted with many wonderful Christian parents who were literally heart broken regarding their child. They did a lot of introspection as to where they went wrong and what their mistakes were. They were in great pain and most of it was totally unnecessary. Almost always there were children who had turned out wonderfully. Yet, the parents could only consider that they were awful failures due to the one child who was having problems.

I have heard parents blame themselves for placing the child in public schools or in a religious school or because they did not do home school or for belonging to the wrong church or because they were too strict or too lenient etc.

None of the blaming of the parents or of the environment in which the parents placed the child is of much profit. Remember there is an enemy.

What is worth while is to never forget that the Lord can save the most fallen, most backslidden, most disappointing child. I love the passage in Romans chapter 4:17, “God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.” NASB When someone is dead, there is no more hope. My younger brother was killed at age 16 in a hunting accident by his best friend. My parents had many plans for him, their youngest child. But after his death, there was no more hope, no more plans. But we believe in God who gives life to the dead. I have seen many seemingly hopeless "dead" children turn back to God and to their parents. I would encourage us all to focus on this rather than trying to assess blame.

There is profit in seeking the Lord to learn from our short comings and to course correct but be careful not to be drawn into the devils game of accuse, accuse accuse.

In the LCS there was a real lack of vision regarding the very crucial and critical role of the family in God's plan and purpose. Sadly, in the LCS, many parents made serious mistakes and did not receive needed healthy instruction regarding raising children for the Lord. Frankly, I absolutely love to speak of the family and how powerful the four generational wall of testimony is. (By the way the scriptures reveals the principle of four generations standing together for the Lord's testimony.)

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Hope I think the fact there is an enemy seeking whom he may devour is a given for most Christians. But this cannot be the catch-all excuse for a lack of responsible parenting. It appears the issue with the LCS is not: we did everything we could to raise our kids in a healthy well adjusted manner etc but at the end of the day many just went off the deep end. But rather: our children were raised in an environment that was basically anti-family so it's a miracle that any of them survived and became healthy adults.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Hope I think the fact there is an enemy seeking whom he may devour is a given for most Christians. But this cannot be the catch-all excuse for a lack of responsible parenting. It appears the issue with the LCS is not: we did everything we could to raise our kids in a healthy well adjusted manner etc but at the end of the day many just went off the deep end. But rather: our children were raised in an environment that was basically anti-family so it's a miracle that any of them survived and became healthy adults.

Greetings djohnson,

Sorry if my post gave the impression that I was offering a "catch-all excuse for a lack of responsible parenting."

Also, I don't think any would claim "we did everything we could to raise our kids in a healthy well adjusted manner etc but at the end of the day many just went off the deep end."

But I can say that in my own home and in the church in Dallas in general we were not basically anti-family."

In Dallas and in the other lc in Texas, there were many activities for the children, young people etc. I took my children to their various practices and attended the majority of their games. Others also who were involved with my children would attend their games and I went to other children's activities.

Some of the children were outstanding students and citizens. Others were big busts. I saw a few who were excellent at avoiding their responsibility in their unhappy lives and quick to blame, blame, blame.

I have witnessed some adult members who could not hold a responsible job and it was always someone else's fault. I have witnessed some terrible failures at marriage and family and it was always someone else's fault.

Just because someone who has made a mess of things starts crying LCS is to blame, do not be so quickly persuaded that there was some sort of systemic problem and "it's a miracle that any of them survived and became healthy adults."

On the other hand, maybe it is a miracle that any of us survive and become healthy adults. Thank the Lord for his never failing love and mercy toward us all.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Hope

When we consider how the children of Christian parents get into trouble in their teen age and adult years, it is important to never forget that there is an enemy. Do not forget Adam and Eve. They had the very best care from the very creator God. They had a walk and talk with Him everyday. They were not neglected and the creator did not make any mistakes. Yet look what happened! Why? Well there is an enemy.

In my life both as a Christian and in my profession, I have interacted with many wonderful Christian parents who were literally heart broken regarding their child. They did a lot of introspection as to where they went wrong and what their mistakes were. They were in great pain and most of it was totally unnecessary. Almost always there were children who had turned out wonderfully. Yet, the parents could only consider that they were awful failures due to the one child who was having problems.

I have heard parents blame themselves for placing the child in public schools or in a religious school or because they did not do home school or for belonging to the wrong church or because they were too strict or too lenient etc.

None of the blaming of the parents or of the environment in which the parents placed the child is of much profit. Remember there is an enemy.

What is worth while is to never forget that the Lord can save the most fallen, most backslidden, most disappointing child. I love the passage in Romans chapter 4:17, “God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.” NASB When someone is dead, there is no more hope. My younger brother was killed at age 16 in a hunting accident by his best friend. My parents had many plans for him, their youngest child. But after his death, there was no more hope, no more plans. But we believe in God who gives life to the dead. I have seen many seemingly hopeless "dead" children turn back to God and to their parents. I would encourage us all to focus on this rather than trying to assess blame.

There is profit in seeking the Lord to learn from our short comings and to course correct but be careful not to be drawn into the devils game of accuse, accuse accuse.

In the LCS there was a real lack of vision regarding the very crucial and critical role of the family in God's plan and purpose. Sadly, in the LCS, many parents made serious mistakes and did not receive needed healthy instruction regarding raising children for the Lord. Frankly, I absolutely love to speak of the family and how powerful the four generational wall of testimony is. (By the way the scriptures reveals the principle of four generations standing together for the Lord's testimony.)

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

Don,

I've been reading back through this thread from the beginning. I had read the post from you before and agreed with it except for the items about the "devil's game" and blame on parents and the environment they put their children. The devil also plays the game to keep us silent in the face of sinfulness. I also didn't agree with the idea that there isn't much profit in looking at the blame on the parents or the environment they placed their children. Sorry, but that one was off the charts wrong in my mind. It is absolutely one of the most important functions of a parent to keep a child from dangerous environments.

As I read it the first time something occurred to me. Reading it again, it occurs to me again. The OT Law set forward three main things:

1. Blessings for Obedience to the Law
2. Cursings for Disobedience to the Law
3. Mercy to those who repented

This is setup in multiple places (Leviticus and Deuteronomy).

- Part of the blessing for obedience was protection and success against your enemies.
- Part of the cursing for disobedience was the fact that your enemies would have success against you.

We are not under the Law, but in our disobedience to Christ we do open the door for the Enemy of God. The Enemy likes nothing more than to wreak havoc on families.

Yes, there is an enemy and he should not be forgotten. When fathers and mothers enter into things that violate basic tenets that the Lord sets forward the Enemy can take advantage. I think this definitely happened on a broader scale in the LC.

I don't believe we can point to the Enemy "outside" when we hold the door open to the Enemy to come "inside" through our disobedience to the Lord in regards to his instructions towards fathers and mothers.

This is why this is such a hot topic for me. It's not because of you, personally, but because the disobedience to follow the Lord's ways in regards to family were so seriously violated and the door was held open to the Enemy for him to waltz right in. He did and a lot of destruction followed.

I've seen a lot of destruction on the 2nd generation which hasn't ever been well represented on any of these forums.

Am I making any sense?

Matt

P.S. One of the best things my parents did was to repent to me (and later I found out my brother too) for the things they had done wrong in raising us (this included things that were LC specific and other violations of the Word). They pointed to their own responsibility and did not blame the system. This helped me as I believe it would help other kids if their parents could acknowledge the fact that they allowed their children to be in a spiritually and soully dangerous setting through their involvements with the LC. They didn't put God down in my mind. They made Him holy as a result of their willingness to repent for these things.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Hope

In the LCS there was a real lack of vision regarding the very crucial and critical role of the family in God's plan and purpose. Sadly, in the LCS, many parents made serious mistakes and did not receive needed healthy instruction regarding raising children for the Lord. Frankly, I absolutely love to speak of the family and how powerful the four generational wall of testimony is. (By the way the scriptures reveals the principle of four generations standing together for the Lord's testimony.)

Hope, your words above describe the very realization that compelled me to make Chuck Debelak's speaking available to all Christian parents, whether inside or outside of the churches. I have more of it on hand that has not yet been processed for posting on the internet.



Family: God's Unit of Salvation
See Also: OurSecondGeneration.com

P.S.

[PriestlyScribe]

One further suggestion I would like to make, after having skimmed all the way back to the disturbing start of this thread. Our God is well able to heal much of the damage that we or others may have caused, if we will just open our hearts up to the light of His countenance.

For some, the following message on recovering from "Spiritual Abuse" can serve as a catalyst in moving toward healing and restoration:



Restoring The Christian Family - by Jack Frost
Find More Material At: MendingFamily.com

Malachi Ch4
5 I am about to send Elijah the prophet to you before the great and terrible day of Jehovah comes; 6 And he will turn the heart of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a curse.

P.S.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by John

I don’t recall fathers taking time out to spend with their children. We were too busy in the Lord’s army. We gave everything and everyone for the cause.

It was a sad and loveless place, a very abnormal place for children.

During my early years when our family lived in Anaheim, I had a normal childhood. My dad took me and my siblings to playground parks, we watched football games together, and my first summer in Anaheim my dad and another brother took me and my next youngest brother to our first Angels game. Who were they playing? None other than the Cleveland Indians.

Terry

[ps8602]

This thread bothers me as my intention of joining the board was to have meaningful discussions based on fact. The opening post states "I have learned that among those who grew up in the LCS many face social issues..."

Is this a fair thread? Is the level of social issues for those in/left the 'LCS' greater than 1) that in society where the church is 2) than that in any other Christian group?

I would hope that our evaluation of the 'LCS' is fair and based on fact not on the whim of someone who has had a bad experience and is looking for to blame.

Dennis

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ps8602

This thread bothers me as my intention of joining the board was to have meaningful discussions based on fact.

Dennis,

There are many threads that are based on fact. And this one, despite the inability to nail down specific facts, is not a factual void. It is just that there is no "one size fits all" analysis and therefore not very helpful.

I'm sure that each of us had different thoughts when the thread began. That is because this is much more complicated than blaming the LC. Of course, there is probably blame that can be leveled at the LC, but it will be difficult to isolate since they actually had little teaching on the subject. It's hard to say that it is the LC's fault that one family followed the pattern of another that turns out to have been simply dysfunctional. If everyone had turned out somewhat the same, there might be something clearer to say.

[OBW]

Actually, despite saying to Dennis that there is nothing much in this thread, I do not think it is totally useless, even if it is so for some.

I mostly agree with Hope that the parenting I saw was not that different from others I could observe. The main difference would have been some tendency by many to try to isolate their kids from the "world." While the idea is noble, many of the things done with that in mind do not adequately prepare them for the day that they are turned out on their own and the world challenges the belief system that they have not yet internalized.

Rather than helping them deal with the reality of life gradually over several years, there is a tendency to build a hedge around them and avoid it all. The problem is that the hedge tends to disappear overnight and the onslaught of contrary information can be overwhelming. So rather than build the clarity of conviction and faith as a part of growing up, they are confronted with all of it at once.

This is not just a LC problem. It also happens among some conservative Christians who over-protect their kids from those "others" thorugh home schooling, separate activities, etc. I am not necessarily opposed to home schooling. But it too often helps to enforce the hedge/no hedge problem I spoke of earlier.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

In addition to being insular the LCS engaged in behaviors that most children later working through it would find quite strange e.g. burning baby and wedding pictures in front of their children, no TV, no sports, vacations all used for Lee crazed conferences, no Christmas, migrating and the overall obsession with Lee and his group prioritized above the well being of the children.

Thankfully children are not completely stupid and know when mommy and daddy love someone i.e. Lee more than them and when mommy and daddy's behavior is being dictated by Lee and his cronies. In short they know that Lee was their shadow mommy and daddy.

Perhaps it should be said more plainly: their parents were addicted to Mr. Lee and thus they are children of parents with a chronic addiction. Some children can overcome this in their adult lives but not without tremendous difficulty. For anyone who does not believe this please just do a little research on adult children of alcoholics. Interesting stuff!

[finallyprettyokay]

Dennis said: This thread bothers me as my intention of joining the board was to have meaningful discussions based on fact

I wonder if the words of WL provide 'fact'. I wrote in another thread about his teaching of children being 'wrappers'. Let's see if I can give you the link:

http://http://localchurchdiscussions...s+ball#post353


I hope it (the link) works. It was in the thread about Raising Christian Children, in the Practice What He Preached part. It was post #11.

So: fact --- Witness Lee himself preached about children being "wrappers", wrapping up parent's hearts to distract them from "God's Move". It was repeated to me by one of the biggest of the big names in that hierarchy.

Other facts: As other posters have written, children watched their parents burn pictures of them. Wow.

Hope talks about the kids in Texas having lots of activities. I don't know for sure if that means things the church set up, or school activities and things like that. If it was 'outside' activities, that is really cool and hurray for the kids in Texas. I never saw anything like that at all. There was one family in San Diego who had their sons in school sports, and stood firmly in favor of that. Everyone else whispered behind their backs about it. It was the only time I ever heard of such a thing. Good for him, huh? And really, really good for his kids.

And Hope, I have no problem believing you did lots of stuff as a family, you maverick you! It was quite rare, and I admire those families that did was best for their kids, regardless. Our son was 3 when we departed, so he was spared --- quite a bit, anyway. Those first 3 years certainly count!

But Hope -- there was indeed a systemic problem related to parenting. Wrappers? Terrible thing to say. If our kids didn't 'wrap up our hearts' we would never be able to do the things that being a parent requires just to keep those little punkins alive.

These were acts of ommission, not commission. I wonder if those truly abusive parents would have been abusers in whatever setting they were in. That's a whole different story than what I am writing about. Or what I think most or all of the posters are writing about.

A funny little story -- I have shared that I live in the Salt Lake City area. Lots of LDS folks. A good friend of mine was telling me how they don't drink coffee, and a few other such things. I just laughed and told him 'Oh, don't even TRY to out-legal me! I will win that discussion, hands down'. He's a great guy and knows my story, so he understood and laughed also.

I wonder how many kids lived within walking distance of Disneyland, but never got to go there. I wonder how many kids within a short drive of the ocean never saw it (oh, some of the burnings were on the beach, I forgot). Or the mountains. Or the --- oh, fill in the blanks. You get the idea.

Hope wrote: Frankly, I absolutely love to speak of the family

Oh, yeah. Me too. Family is a beautiful thing God gave us. Thanks, God.

So, as Dennis asked -- are there more social problems in ex-LC or LC kids than others? I don't know. Hurt people are everywhere, sadly. All I can really speak to is how I was 'taught' and what I saw all around me.


FPO

[SpeakersCorner]

I would say the biggest problem of the LC in child-raising was simply this:

Too many meetings.



SC

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

OBW my original question was: "what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?"

So far we have heard many answers but the weakest for me so far is a former leader claiming no role for the LCS. No cause and effect relationship. I consider that to be a cop out. A child cannot grow up in a Lee obsessed or any other obsessed environment and not have an effect on their behaviors. Call it addiction, call it idolatry, call it obsession, do the footnotes with the usual disclaimers that it doesn't include everybody...but at the end of the day Lee and those leaders and parents who abdicated are accountable. Weaseling around it just feeds into the irresponsibility that is part and parcel of the LCS.

Men who think Lee is the acting god and wasted millions on building white elephants and convinced people to give their life savings for Lee's businesses and covered up for Lee's son and had their entire agendas wrapped up in Lee and openly bullied people along with Lee and supported his bullying at the same time were fathers and husbands. Are we to believe that they checked their irresponsibility and obsessions at the front door every night when they came home? I don't believe that at all. And anyone who does is a patsy.

[Thankful Jane]

LC teachings were off concerning marriage and family. How many Christian churches can you go to today that teach you the church comes before marriage and family? Where is this in the Bible?

We were taught that if you take care of the Lord and the church, God will take care of your marriage and children. This is clearly not biblical, but we bought it. I remember in my first years in the LC being told that Samuel Chang said the most important thing we could do for our children was to be consecrated. That translated into consecrated to the church.

Children need time. They need a lot of hands on involvement, praise, encouragement, etc. They need to know they are important. Both of my children have told me that they always knew they came in second when it came to the church. If there was an event for them (school or recreational) and a church event at the same time, the church event took precedence. Suffice it to say that because the church took all our time, their events got basically none.

One time my husband tried to be an assistant coach for a Little League baseball team of one of our sons, but the baseball schedule and the meeting schedule didn't mesh, so the coaching went out the window. Same with the time the Little League games were played. Same with every single thing our children were involved in. My youngest son fared better than my oldest because we left when he was about 14.

Maybe some parents did better. Good for them. Those who took the LC teachings and practices seriously hurt their families. Period.

In the years after we left, God made me face squarely what I did wrong in my family. I had to do some serious soul searching and repenting to my husband and to my children. Then, I had to change my behavior and show them they were important and that their things were important. I'm still working on that. I will need to walk that way the rest of my life. I will never be able to make up for my neglect. I can cry thinking about it.

Witness Lee said we should never have regrets. He clearly didn't. I do and am healthier for it and so is my family.

The sad thing was that everything in me wanted to do the right thing for my children, but the unhealthy teaching I was receiving told me that was my "self."

I am thankful every day that the Lord has had mercy on my children. The one thing I did right was not cram the program down their throats. If they didn't want to be involved, they were free not to be. I never made them "call on the Lord," etc. I knew that God had come to me and won my heart as a child, and I wanted the same for my children. I prayed that He would win them, and He did. Mercy.

I am still waiting for the day when I hear an ex-LC leader say, "It was not biblical to teach that the Lord would take care of our families if we took care of the church. That teaching was damaging and hurt a lot of people. I am sorry."

Husbands were looked down on if they did anything to help their wives. My husband on occasion would help me with a few domestic things, but was always afraid the brothers would find out and think poorly of him. I still remember that he babysat for me one time. Only one, though. The risk of disapproval was too great.

Great place.

If you want to understand why so many kids grew up with problems, ask the sisters. They had to deny their most basic instincts concerning the family. Most of the brothers were happily off with their heads in the meeting clouds. I know of one exception; he was a German who protected his family like a tank battallion commander. His wife even wore makeup to the meetings.

Thankful Jane

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

LC teachings were off concerning marriage and family. How many Christian churches can you go to today that teach you the church comes before marriage and family? Where is this in the Bible? We were taught that if you take care of the Lord and the church, God will take care of your marriage and children. This is clearly not biblical, but we bought it.

Thanks Thankful Jane,

I entered marriage with this same LC training -- exactly as you described here. It didn't work. It was a lie. A self-serving deception. It was always short term gain and long term loss. Some of the brothers who enforced these decrees -- two in particular -- both had failed marriages. After the LC divorce rate exceeded the world, some of these teachings were modified in the GLA -- but the damages were done.

Let me repeat a crucial point -- if you place "Christ and the church" ahead of your marriage, you end up with neither. The living Christ gets replaced with endless church service. "But, brother, we have no one else to do this." And your family gets replaced by the brothers. "Why don't you just marry the brothers anyways!"

I must add another point to clarify this phenomenon for all the naysayers: Those of us which came from dysfunctional families suffered the most, and were the most vulnerable. Those of us with solid upbringings in wholesome families, suffered the least. Those of us with faithful and loyal zealots for leaders, suffered the most. Those of us with wise and loving shepherds for leaders, suffered the least.

[Matt Anderson]

I disagree with djohnson's approach to those from an LC background, but I don't discount the substance of what he brings forward.

I think there is a very important question that lies at the base of many of the things related to the LC.

Did many enter into idolatry? Did the sacrifices made to these idols compromise families and allow the Enemy of God to be a destructive force on the lives of the children in those families? Was it widespread?

- The answer to all of these is YES.

The next most important question is whether or not this idolatry has been acknowledged and repented of at a proper level?

- The answer in many cases is NO.

I have a strong reaction to those who would defend any aspect of a christian system that does not hold families and the boundaries that God has set in place for families fully intact.

For example, how many times did elders in local congregations discipline other people's children? It happened all of the time. It happened without informing, involving and working with the people who are commanded to love and nurture these children (the parents).

There are many other examples of the types of lesser but very serious violations of God's ways in families.

This is very fundamental and I believe it is an area that is overlooked for the sake of some 'higher vision' of "The Church".

We are not talking about gross physical abuse, but neglect and the utter failure of many, many parents who prostrated themselves before the LC system as an idol in disobedience to God's ways.

Neglect is very serious in the face of the fact that God gives such strong instruction regarding the responsibilities and duties within families for all parties (fathers, mothers and children).

Neglect is abuse.

I'd like to hear about the families that did uphold proper Biblical standards when it came to raising children.

Name ONE? Then let's discuss them as an example and compare them to the normal situation in the LC.

Matt

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Matt

For example, how many times did elders in local congregations discipline other people's children? It happened all of the time. It happened without informing, involving and working with the people who are commanded to love and nurture these children (the parents).

There are many other examples of the types of lesser but very serious violations of God's ways in families.

This is very fundamental and I believe it is an area that is overlooked for the sake of some 'higher vision' of "The Church".

We are not talking about gross physical abuse, but neglect and the utter failure of many, many parents who prostrated themselves before the LC system as an idol in disobedience to God's ways.

Neglect is very serious in the face of the fact that God gives such strong instruction regarding the responsibilities and duties within families for all parties (fathers, mothers and children).

Neglect is abuse.

I'd like to hear about the families that did uphold proper Biblical standards when it came to raising children.

Name ONE? Then let's discuss them as an example and compare them to the normal situation in the LC.

Matt

Matt, I don't agree painting everyone in the LCS with a broad brush. Just as there are those who care too much about what the other brothers and sisters think, that the parent or parents wouldn't dare raise an objection if one of the other brothers or sisters gave their child a serious rebuke. That I see as violating the parent's responsibility. It's intensified when it happens in the parent's presence and not a word is uttered. (Which is why as a parent, I cannot scold another parent's child. All I can do is bring it to the attention of the parent and leave the responsibility with them.)

Matt, just there are parents that wouldn't dare raise objections there are also parents who consider it an offense if another brother or sister rebuked their child; justified or unjustified.

Grace,

Terry

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Matt

I disagree with djohnson's approach to those from an LC background, but I don't discount the substance of what he brings forward.

I think there is a very important question that lies at the base of many of the things related to the LC.

Did many enter into idolatry? Did the sacrifices made to these idols compromise families and allow the Enemy of God to be a destructive force on the lives of the children in those families? Was it widespread?

- The answer to all of these is YES.

The next most important question is whether or not this idolatry has been acknowledged and repented of at a proper level?

- The answer in many cases is NO.

I have a strong reaction to those who would defend any aspect of a christian system that does not hold families and the boundaries that God has set in place for families fully intact.

For example, how many times did elders in local congregations discipline other people's children? It happened all of the time. It happened without informing, involving and working with the people who are commanded to love and nurture these children (the parents).
There are many other examples of the types of lesser but very serious violations of God's ways in families.

This is very fundamental and I believe it is an area that is overlooked for the sake of some 'higher vision' of "The Church".

We are not talking about gross physical abuse, but neglect and the utter failure of many, many parents who prostrated themselves before the LC system as an idol in disobedience to God's ways.

Neglect is very serious in the face of the fact that God gives such strong instruction regarding the responsibilities and duties within families for all parties (fathers, mothers and children).

Neglect is abuse.

I'd like to hear about the families that did uphold proper Biblical standards when it came to raising children.

Name ONE? Then let's discuss them as an example and compare them to the normal situation in the LC.
Matt

Dear Matt,

Church leaders should never overstep their boundaries and discipline the childrens of others.

The idolatry of Baal and Estarte worship in the old testament was a terrible form of family abuse complete with infanticide and putting your wife out as a temple prostitute. Idolatry certainly does involve the sacrifice of the family. The family is critical in God's administration and should be preserved, nurtured and built up. At another time, I would enjoy a fellowship on idolatry, but not just on the idolatry in the lc but in our broad society. It is rampant.

Surely, surely we had a big flat spot on being a proper spouse and parent according to the Lord's revelation and plan and purpose. Another topic that could be very helpful to us all. We all need help here whether or not we ever heard of the lc.

Regarding the discipline of other's children. I am not familar with this practice. Perhaps some elder somewhere scolded a child. There was an older brother in Dallas who would call down a young person in an ad hoc manner but he came from the old southern culture where the community was watching out for all the children and if I was riding my bicycle in an unsafe manner the neighbor would be quick to give me a little scolding. I remember one time when at a Jr. High conference, I scolded some of the junior high boys for some little misdeed like jumping up and running for snacks before dismissal or some little thing like that. For some reason that irritated me and I said something about that behavior being like Bozo the clown. I remember it well because the father of one of the boys sat me down and put me in my place. I did apologize for I should have never slandered any of the children. I had been pounding this into the other brothers who were working with the young people. Never slander or curse the precious young people.

While I can remember the Bozo comment very clearly, the story told about the young sister being called down before 16 elders from two states is as foreign to me as a man from Mars. When and where did something like this happen? Thankful Jane never was in the church in Dallas. We did not have a long table around which 16 people could sit. I do recall such a table in Houston. I was not there!!! I never heard of it!!!

As far as naming families which came up to proper Biblical Standards in raising children, that is a tall order. On this one nearly all christians today are way short. But I can name many families who loved their children dearly as well as each other. Perhaps I could nominate the family of Mike H. as my example of an all star family. (But then Mike and his brother were already in high school. Therefore we probably did not have time to mess them up.)

There was another family that my wife and children considered to be just about perfect. My boys in rare sober moments would tell me that the sons of .... were just about perfect in the way they respected their parents, did their chores, completed their homework etc. They would say things like they could never get away with the stuff they did at our house. I would agree that brother and sister .... were surely much better parents than Sheryl and I and we should all aspire to be like that family. Then lo and behold the children had some serious problems. How could this be? Later, praise the Lord, they were all restored and at last report were outstanding citizens and believers in Christ. It may have been due to the classic "over protected" children may go overboard for a while which Mike H. pointed out. How to protect but not over protect? I very real delima. I surely do not have the answer.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Hope

Dear Matt,

Church leaders should never overstep their boundaries and discipline the childrens of others.

The idolatry of Baal and Estarte worship in the old testament was a terrible form of family abuse complete with infanticide and putting your wife out as a temple prostitute. Idolatry certainly does involve the sacrifice of the family. The family is critical in God's administration and should be preserved, nurtured and built up. At another time, I would enjoy a fellowship on idolatry, but not just on the idolatry in the lc but in our broad society. It is rampant.

Surely, surely we had a big flat spot on being a proper spouse and parent according to the Lord's revelation and plan and purpose. Another topic that could be very helpful to us all. We all need help here whether or not we ever heard of the lc.

Regarding the discipline of other's children. I am not familar with this practice. Perhaps some elder somewhere scolded a child. There was an older brother in Dallas who would call down a young person in an ad hoc manner but he came from the old southern culture where the community was watching out for all the children and if I was riding my bicycle in an unsafe manner the neighbor would be quick to give me a little scolding. I remember one time when at a Jr. High conference, I scolded some of the junior high boys for some little misdeed like jumping up and running for snacks before dismissal or some little thing like that. For some reason that irritated me and I said something about that behavior being like Bozo the clown. I remember it well because the father of one of the boys sat me down and put me in my place. I did apologize for I should have never slandered any of the children. I had been pounding this into the other brothers who were working with the young people. Never slander or curse the precious young people.

While I can remember the Bozo comment very clearly, the story told about the young sister being called down before 16 elders from two states is as foreign to me as a man from Mars. When and where did something like this happen? Thankful Jane never was in the church in Dallas. We did not have a long table around which 16 people could sit. I do recall such a table in Houston. I was not there!!! I never heard of it!!!

As far as naming families which came up to proper Biblical Standards in raising children, that is a tall order. On this one nearly all christians today are way short. But I can name many families who loved their children dearly as well as each other. Perhaps I could nominate the family of Mike H. as my example of an all star family. (But then Mike and his brother were already in high school. Therefore we probably did not have time to mess them up.)

There was another family that my wife and children considered to be just about perfect. My boys in rare sober moments would tell me that the sons of .... were just about perfect in the way they respected their parents, did their chores, completed their homework etc. They would say things like they could never get away with the stuff they did at our house. I would agree that brother and sister .... were surely much better parents than Sheryl and I and we should all aspire to be like that family. Then lo and behold the children had some serious problems. How could this be? Later, praise the Lord, they were all restored and at last report were outstanding citizens and believers in Christ. It may have been due to the classic "over protected" children may go overboard for a while which Mike H. pointed out. How to protect but not over protect? I very real delima. I surely do not have the answer.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

Dear Hope,
I am the woman in the story. To set the record straight, it happened just as published. The instance occurred at the house next to the meeting hall in Dallas. Almost all elders from Texas region and OKC were present along with my parents. I think you were there, too. I reviewed the story before the book was published and approved it as true. Elaboration on the disciplinary action should be unnecessary since almost any person with basic counseling knowledge would agree this type of discipline is inappropriate.

Someone mentioned to me about this thread so I wanted to make it clear what really happened. Yes, it was pretty unpleasant; however, I have moved on and rarely think about these memories. God has greatly blessed my family and life. I thank Him for all my experiences - it has made me the person I am today.

[Hope]

My comments mistakenly were put in the quote box!!!

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I don’t see anything on this forum in djohnson’s posts that says he is “no friend.”

Djohnson is free to make statements here, spectacular or otherwise. We are free to support or refute them based on their content.

Sweeping statements are also allowed and can be discussed. For clarity’s sake, would you mind giving us one of these “sweeping” statements. You say that five people were dismissed out of hand. Where was that? I saw some arguments offered. I didn’t’ see anyone’s person being dismissed out of hand.

Really??? Go back and read the responses to those five. They were either ignored or completely shouted down. Reminded me a little of the LC collective groan. I did not see much in the posts where someone said "Thank you for that side of the experience." There was some. But a healthy back and forth is difficult when you give your experience and are trumped with a story of woe and grief, (the real stuff.)
Sweeping statements?? Here are a few that I noticed. I really hate to do this because I am going to get into trouble. But I did not speak up in the old LCS many times because I wanted everyone to like me.
among those who grew up in the LCS many face social issues. Some that I am familiar with are: alcoholism, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, divorce, paying for sex i.e. engaging in services of prostitutes, infidelity, porn addiction.
A subculture that was restricting them thus became a culprit in their lustful pursuits.
our children were raised in an environment that was basically anti-family
The addictive behavior is obvious in the LCS and it is encouraged.
I do believe that there was enough abuse in families not to take it lightly or try to move past it through the use of a few examples that appear to mitigate the overall situation.
P.S. Based on what I have heard from others it is possible that the Texas Region (inclusive of Dallas) was more extreme than other regions of the US.
In short they know that Lee was their shadow mommy and daddy.
Perhaps it should be said more plainly: their parents were addicted to Mr. Lee and thus they are children of parents with a chronic addiction
In answer to Dennis' question: their are more social problems among those children who grow up with addicts as parents than otherwise.
Husbands were looked down on if they did anything to help their wives
If you want to understand why so many kids grew up with problems, ask the sisters. They had to deny their most basic instincts concerning the family.
As other posters have written, children watched their parents burn pictures of them. Wow.
It was a sad, sad place and a lot of people, not only children, were not protected and treasured the way we all deserve. The way God commands. Love one another as I have loved you.
It was alot bad
Many can tell you that their children were eventually lost because of the way they were “taken care of” in the Local Church
The picture of the LC life was not what some here seem to want to paint

Perhaps these conclusions are all correct. But I would prefer a reasoned presentation of incorrect teachings, (some have quoted WL to make this point.) and then a calm accounting of the bad practices with a conclusion.

By the way if WL had been kind and his children had been model Christians and all the elders had been godly and the families beautiful, I still would have left. I was loyal to an ideal, a goal to which the Lord had called me. In short, I wanted to know Christ personally and directly as my life and Lord. I wanted to experience a church life that was a testimony of the headship of Christ and the reality of the oneness of the functioning members. By 1988 it was painfully clear that "the Lord's Recovery" with its Apostle of the Age, Deputy Authority, etc was not what the Lord desired or what I wanted.

Addiction? No. I never had any withdrawals. I was relieved that I did not have to attend any more 10 day trainings or critical conferences or urgent elder-co-workers meetings or late night fellowships with the legend or any of his closest co-workers and especially those warmed over death videos. I put all the LSM literature in the attic or a closet and plunged into the "pure" word of God. Oh it is so sweet. The only time I have considered reading something of the old stuff is when Thankful Jane or Nell or Mike H. challenge me on something and I think, "oh boy, I guess I am going to have to check that out." In fact in my writing of the history, I will not be able to continue to avoid it. On the other hand, I did struggle for a time. That was not due to any withdrawals but due to a shattered ideal and great grief over my failures as a shepherd.


You are loading up the language here, Hope. Denigrated? (def: to attack somebody’s character or reputation; to disparage or criticize somebody or something, or make something seem unimportant). Please give an example of such denigration. I missed it, that is, until your post to djohnson..

I got the word "denigrate" from one of the posters who was exhorting Arizona for posting his experience which showed another side to the thread's focus. I also used "peer pressure" because one of the posters had used it to describe a key element of the control exercised in the LC. (By the way I do agree that peer pressure was in insidious element there.) Sometimes things cut both ways.
I watched djohnson’s posts greatly improve over a period of time on the other forum. What has he done on this forum?

Good ole djohnson's post have improved. I have tried to engage him in a thoughtful manner and give him his due. What he had done here is draw us into a debate concerning who had the most reliable and legitimate lc experience of how bad it was.

Looking at his words, I would say he is stating the obvious. I agree with him that there is such a thing as a Lee addiction. Many are in denial about this.

See Matt's comments.

What!? Hope, how can you know that djohnson wants this? Has he told you this? We can judge each other’s actions and words for what they actually are, but saying we know others motives is crossing a line.
Posters do this all the time. You included TJ. How often I have seen WL's motives addressed because of his actions and words.


Disappear? Self destruct? .... Whoa, Hope, you’re getting a little scary here. Okay, by now you’ve had a good night’s sleep, and I’m sure when you re-read this, you’ll see how strange this sounds ....

I do need a good night’s sleep. Ever since my illness I am not as strong as I use to be. But I have more on my plate than ever. Sleep, ah sweet sleep. Thank you for your concerns. What I said may sound strange but just file what I said for later reference. I always hope that my warnings will not come to pass. But had I warned back in 1974 concerning what I saw at that fateful Urgent Elders/Co-Workers meeting, you may have called me strange.

I totally agree that the LC was a collecting place of a lot of previously damaged people. They, however, didn’t just start applying things in an extreme way all by themselves. They were in love with Jesus and were ready to be led. I would say “many” not “some” of the leaders did not practice “proper” leadership. Proper leaders would not silently follow improper “main” leaders into error. They would be holding the Head and would speak up accordingly. There are few to none who did. I witnessed many “silver bullets” shot at people in meetings. I don’t remember even one leader ever speaking up to correct this. Instead, I remember them nodding their heads in agreement.

You got me there. Instead of "many" how about 95% of the leaders where failures is caring for the saints. You said it right. In addition, I saw plenty of silver bullets being fired and probably fired a few myself. James Barber promoted this and boasted that this was often how he got his way in the church where he was. Once Bill Freeman told me that this was a terrible practice and he would never do it. Once it was said, it could not have been clearer. I emptied by firing chamber and I trust I never reloaded.

The last thing dysfunctional people trying to get their lives on course with God need is dysfunctional leaders giving them unhealthy teaching.

I believe you truly desire this and commend you for it and also for the willingness you have exhibited on this forum to listen to others.

In line with your stated desire, please allow me then to say that this post of yours is reminiscent of a local church elder doing damage control; however, in your case I'm not sure what you're trying to protect. Don't you see that what you are doing comes across as denigrating djohnson?

It seems to me that you are speaking down to us as one who is “in the know” and has a “clearer picture” of things than everyone else. You warned us earlier about “blaming” and not being drawn into Satan’s “accusing, accusing, accusing.”

Hope, as long as we aren’t violating basic courtesy or personally attacking someone and as long as we’re not going afield from Lee/Nee matters, we are free to say whatever we think on this forum--even if it sounds like blaming or accusing.

This kind of warning shuts people down by triggering their fears of offending God in some way. It stops those with a sensitive conscience from speaking the truth that they need to speak. This forum is a place where hurt people can learn to dialogue honestly without fear and without having to worry about figuring out if they sound like they are “blaming” or “accusing.”

I’m still feel like I'm sitting in an LC meeting being warned about who and what I should listen to. I am being told that I should not receive something from a person who has been identified as someone whose motive is bad and who is hurting us.

Hope, forgive my bluntness. I love you as my brother in Christ and want only His very best for you. I know you mean only the best. I’m sure our leaders in the past meant the best; nevertheless, they didn’t do the best.

Most of us do not want to be given pronouncements about what we should think, or say, or believe or who we should listen to. We, not only can, but must, make such judgments for ourselves.

I am not upset with you. I am full of sympathy for what you have been through. I understand that you were not as guilty as other leaders and appreciate that. However, I feel out I should point out what I see as a symptom of what I consider to be the LC leadership disease.

You can take or leave what I’ve written. That’s up to you. I do hope you will give it some consideration. I may be one of the only ones to push back like this and will probably get some flack for it, but that's okay.

I sat silently in the LC and watched while leaders, using the base of respect they had built up with others, made pronouncements to and about others that were not theirs to make. I am not going to just sit by quietly on this forum when I see more of the same.


Ever your sister and faithful witness in Christ Jesus,

Thankful Jane

Is not life ironic!!! I have felt so bad because in the lc days I kept my mouth shut lest I be negative and shut people down. Let us laugh a little bit together. I feel like I am getting a talk from Benson about my questioning regarding the ministry.

I believe the saints on the forum can handle anything I throw out there and do not need protection. But I understand your concerns. We do not want to repeat the past. But when I see a problem coming down the road and aiming for people I care for I must speak up. For me everything is first about the people. The LSM, the BB, the apostle of the age do not mean a hill of beans to me but only how they have hurt the Lord's dear people. We are absolutely one on this even though we may express it differently.

By the way 18 months or so ago when I began to post on the other forum, I wondered how you might greet me should we ever meet again. I was afraid you might kick me in the shins for having been one of the Texas elders. I think by now I have moved up to a hand shake but I know I am still a long way off from a hug.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

At it's core addictive behavior gives itself away by various manifestations that are contrary to common sense and natural parental instincts. Another example of this behavior in the LCS is the idea of migrating to crime ridden inner cities to "take the ground". People with families will naturally want security, safety and protection for their children above all else. If they can financially afford it they will want to live in a safe neighborhood with good schools. However if they are addicted they will go whatever their addiction leads them regardless of the effect on their families. They will put their families in danger for the sake of their drug of choice.

[Hope]

BlessD,

I am so sorry for that sad episode. But I have absolutely no recollection of it. I am not doubting your word but I have no rememberance of it and it sounds very very odd to me. May I assume you were from Houston, where Jane was from? I never, never got involved in Houston affairs if there was any way possible. I do not think I was ever there after 1976. The less contact I had with Ray Graver the better.

If you were from OK City, after James Barber moved there, he made it clear to all the elders that I was not welcomed. I had previously labored there quite a bit but when he moved he declared he was drawing a line at the Red River and that he was going to stop Don Rutledge. What a joke!! Well anyway, if you were from OK City there is no way I would have been in any meeting regarding a saint from that church.

Sorry again for your suffering and I am happy that you are fine today. May the Lord continue to keep you and bless you.

In Christ Jesus,

Don Rutledge

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by djohnson

I have learned that among those who grew up in the LCS many face social issues. Some that I am familiar with are: alcoholism, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, divorce, paying for sex i.e. engaging in services of prostitutes, infidelity, porn addiction.

My guess is that once the hypocrisy of the leaders became well known something "snapped" in a lot of the youth. A subculture that was restricting them thus became a culprit in their lustful pursuits. This dynamic coupled with the mainstream media bombardment gave license for their behavior.

My question is: what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?

NOTE: This post is not about or responding to the current discussion regarding Dallas etc...

djohnson and all:

I have little doubt that particular ways of thinking and practices which became habituated and were emphasized played a role in the development of these behaviors.

And it is a valuable effort to pursue this question on this thread. Specific cases - such as with bless D - should be cited and their effect on the victims carefully considered.

But it really is hard to answer the question as stated. This is an area where it is so very difficult to pinpoint cause/effect relationships. As John pointed out, each child is so very unique and a single influence can effect them in diametrically opposing ways.

Furthermore, we don't really have a frame of reference. For example, is the instance of gross fleshly behavior among the LC second generation more or less than second generation in "community churches?" How about in denominations? We have no comparator. Surely, whenever such conduct results, we should look hard to find its roots. But its occurance itself does not automatically reveal an specific underlying problem. So far, we don't even know if such behaviors happen more than in other groups. Anyone have stats or even anecdotal evidence?

Not too long ago, lordsarmy (from the "lordsarmy" xanga cite) posted photographs of young people from Toronto who were, well, being young people - pictures of them on the beach together (scantily clad) and photos of them at a prom or something. lordsarmy used these pictures as "evidence" that the GLA's Mountain Top events etc... produced fleshliness. Well, what do you all think? I immediately asked him to remove those photos. Why? There was absolutely no evidence that the supposed practices of the GLA had the specific effect of "loose" behavior etc... I noted that I knew of equally "loose" behavior from even children of BBs. And I will also say here that I have seen as bad and worse behavior among second generation kids in mainstream Christianity. We should be really really careful attributing such behavior to specific practices/teachings in their youth.

I am not saying to drop the line of inquiry. I say pursue it; it is important. But do so with more rigor than I've seen here. This is not a commentary on the sub-discussion about the relative "purity" of Dallas. I am not addressing that issue. I am addressing the main purpose of this thread and the manner in which we determine what is and what is not "evidence" of certain behaviors being attributable to certain practices, etc. At the very least, let's get a comparator. Is the behavior amoung LC second generation worse and/or more common than in mainstream Christianity? I find it hard to have a fair discussion about this without knowing at least that much.

There are a lot of problems in the LC and there has been a lot of damage. But as we proceed with healing and discernment between babies and bathwater, we need to be so very careful in our cause/effect hypothesis, no?

Thoughts?

In Love,

Peter

P.S. blessD, I want to say that I am sorry that you went through your experience as you described. I cannot imagine how difficult that was. Sharing your story exposes many behaviors among leadership and practices that absolutely must be addressed. I hope you do not take my post here as attempting to detract from that in any way.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Hope

Now I must ask. What are you trying to protect?

This question deserves a response. I am trying to protect the ability of those who were abused at the hands of your fellows (fellow leaders in the LC) to speak up here and know that they will be given full opportunity to speak even if some of their facts aren't perfect. I am trying to protect that.

The substance of what they experienced was real and it was abusive to the soul and spirit. There are a lot of men who are still in love with the concepts produced by the LC. I am trying to protect those who were dropped in the pit and left to die against those who still love the concepts.

This is an honest response. You may not like it or what it implies, but it is given honestly.

Originally Posted by Hope

Matt, what did your three anecdotes demonstrate.

I think I stated my actual point, but I will restate it here for your benefit.

I resisted the oppressive environment successfully in these cases, but even those who were "rebels" around me didn't have the strength to do it. Most just were dominated by the environment to the destruction of their souls.

Originally Posted by Hope

Baylor university did not allow women to wear shorts on campus.

Baylor didn't allow it in the 60's? 70's? Which one? I'm referring to the 90's.

At least they told them before they went to school there. That was at least fair. If you accept it before you go, then you agree to it in advance and have a right to make a choice not to go if you don't want to live by that rule.

Originally Posted by Matt

1. We were all told we could wear shorts at one conference. We showed up only to have this decision reversed. It was the middle of summer in Texas and the heat was sweltering. I defied them. I walked out in my shorts to the next meeting after the decision was reversed. I knew I might be sent home, but it was worth it. They were executing psychological manipulation. Within a few hours everyone was in shorts and it didn't get re-reversed.

Originally Posted by Hope

Come on Matt. Psychological manipulation???

To tell an entire group of kids who have already been abused in a system that they can wear shorts before the camp and then to revoke it after you get to the camp is a form of psychological manipulation. It's a kind of conditioning to enforce bad authority.

So, Come on Hope.

Originally Posted by Matt

2. Without being told that there was a seating order for the kids... Girls on one side and boys on the others side, everyone always segregated. I didn't. I went and sat by the one person who I had been in babysitting with since I was 6 years old. Even she was a little concerned about my presence. I told her that it was fine and that they needed to learn how to grow up. We didn't live in a prison camp. One brother started to approach me. I shot him a look and he turned and walked the other way.

Originally Posted by Hope

Come on Matt. Prison camp because girls and boy at junior high age self segregate.

This was anecdotal evidence that the psychological tactics (concious or subconcious) of the leadership were working. Young people didn't even have to be told to separate. They just did it. This is because they understand the cultural environment and follow the unspoken rules blindly.

So, Come on Hope.

Originally Posted by Matt

3. Each night before bed they would go around the room in prayer. Each person would pray something and then go to the next. I sat in silence when it reached me until the next person started praying. The silence lasted for 30-40 seconds. After two nights of this one of the "brothers" decided to talk to me about it. I told him, "You are free to pray. I'm not comfortable with it, so just leave me alone."

Originally Posted by Hope

Come on Matt, prayer in the cabins one by one is a long standing practice at Christian camps.

My explicit point in this case was about the coerciveness and pressure to pray AND NOT the idea that prayer would happen in Christian camps. We were expected to pray, one at a time as you circled the room. This meant that anyone who didn't pray would be noticed and accounted for. It didn't stop with this simpler peer pressure or coercion, but it went further. I was called aside and questioned as to why I wouldn't pray. More coercion.

I think you will remember the signature sheet for the 1986 letter of idolatry. It had each elder's names listed with a signature line on it. That's coercion and you were coerced by it as were many others. If you didn't sign, you were noticed.

Am I still speaking Greek here?

So, Come on Hope.

You really don't want to go down the path with me about how much abuse there was of children in the LC, including Dallas. It won't be pretty. It's not a topic I have ever emphasized or tried to draw out, but it definitely happened. I don't base this just on my own perceptions. I base it on the fruit. Look at how many kids struggled to survive and develop a relationship with the Lord.

If your own children could be 100% honest with you, what would they say? Would they say that the LC was as you say? Would they say that it helped them develop a relationship with the Lord? What things would they point to as being problems for them?

Honestly, I'm protecting the truth as best as I am able. I think you are trying to do the same. Due to the differences in our perceptions we have a very different thought about the underlying truth. Who wins? I hope neither of us. I hope that others win as a result of our dialogue. This is what I am trying to protect. The freedom for them to dialogue in an environment that allows them to heal.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt

This question deserves a response. I am trying to protect the ability of those who were abused at the hands of your fellows (fellow leaders in the LC) to speak up here and know that they will be given full opportunity to speak even if some of their facts aren't perfect. I am trying to protect that.
................
Honestly, I'm protecting the truth as best as I am able. I think you are trying to do the same. Due to the differences in our perceptions we have a very different thought about the underlying truth. Who wins? I hope neither of us. I hope that others win as a result of our dialogue. This is what I am trying to protect. The freedom for them to dialogue in an environment that allows them to heal. Matt

Matt, this post of yours was painful for me to read. I read Hope's post to you as a pleading and an entreaty, but your post is on the edge of mocking and disrespect. This is so out of character as compared to all your previous posts I have read.

Is there some personal animus between your family and Hope's? Which would explain the "rising temperature" on this thread? For the life of me I can't explain this conflict any other way. When you were moderator on the other forum, you would have closed this thread long before this level of tension had been reached.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Matt,

Is there some personal animus between your family and Hope's?

Not that I am aware of. I know I am not playing friendly on this thread. Stated plainly, I am not going to let someone who was a 1st generation leader of the LC group carve out a special place for himself saying, "Everything else was screwed up, but my locality wasn't and me and my wife did fine." (<-- I can provide the direct quote upon request). I've got enough facts to prove otherwise and the general culture of the group as it related to the 2nd generation cannot be left to a 1st generation leader to interpret. I just won't let that stand.

If I am bordering on disrespect, then I am sorry. I'm just not going to put up with this. There are facts that I know that I will not speak about on this forum that form some of the core of my fundamental resistance which may border on disrespect.

Matt

[Arizona]

Peter D,

I agree with what you have said in your last post. We all know that hanging on the coattails of the previous generation will only take us so far. We all must possess faith for ourselves so it is something real and genuine and not just feigned and second hand.

I remember well in the early 70's how much fellowship we had concerning the fact that the only way for us to gain Christ was "through the fire" of suffering and tribulation. How little we knew what lay ahead! I do have to thank the Lord for our ignorance for if we had known I for one would probably have run very quickly in the opposite direction. The Christian life is "not a game show". I am not making light of it all. I have my own story to tell. I have known perplexity regarding the situations of many dear saints that I grew to love in the past. My mind has been boggled. My tears have flowed before God. But the truth still stands, and one thing has never changed; God is faithful,,,,,, and Jesus is still Lord!

I would encourage us all to not go through this analysis, psychological or otherwise, apart from Christ. He is always the bottom line answer.

Much grace.

Arizona

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Peter here is how I would frame it:

1. If church A promotes family and its well being is central to its message, mission and practices than how much of it's influence can be held responsible for the behavior of children raised in it? Not much in my view.

2. If church B i.e. those of the LCS variety where they have a one MOTA who takes priority over all else including family. And it's central message, mission and practices is designed to support and promote the one MOTA then how much of it's influence can be held responsible for the children raised in it? Quite a bit in my view.

To compare the LCS to community churches is comparing apples and oranges.

On the issue of refuting the claims of the LCS about their supposed purity etc. the actions of their offspring is not the only indicator but it is an indicator of the ridiculousness of their claim.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Peter I generally agree with your well made point however I would mention that community churches are probably not an accurate comparison. The LCS are not community churches. The LCS is a separatist sub culture that positions itself in direct opposition to other Christian groups which they consider to be whores, etc. In other words in their frame of reference only they are pure and right and God's best and have the one ministry and the one minister blah blah blah...you know the drill. I have never been to a community church that had this collective self-concept.

My their own doing the LCS has positioned themselves to be heavily scrutinized. If you are so pure and right and holy and separate and God's best and have so many riches ...then why is your second generation and third generation plagued with so many social problems? Not all of course but enough to bring into question their thesis about themselves.

I am not promoting community churches but since you mentioned them it is only fair to say I have also never been in one that did not teach the family over and above all else except God. They are very family centric. And if they are not family centric enough for ones taste you just leave and go somewhere else. Such an atmosphere and attitude is a far cry from the LCS.

If a child is raised in a system that prioritizes family below the minister of the age and all that goes along with such pompous nonsense including the abuse of authority then certainly such a group can be held accountable for the negative influence they exercise. And if the leadership engage in outright hypocrisy with special passes given for the MOTA and his family while clamping down on everyone else then they can hardly expect their youth to take them too seriously when they are adults and can at least physically break free from groups hold.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Peter I generally agree with your well made point however I would mention that community churches are probably not an accurate comparison. The LCS are not community churches. The LCS is a separatist sub culture that positions itself in direct opposition to other Christian groups which they consider to be whores, etc. In other words in their frame of reference only they are pure and right and God's best and have the one ministry and the one minister blah blah blah...you know the drill. I have never been to a community church that had this collective self-concept.

My their own doing the LCS has positioned themselves to be heavily scrutinized. If you are so pure and right and holy and separate and God's best and have so many riches ...then why is your second generation and third generation plagued with so many social problems? Not all of course but enough to bring into question their thesis about themselves.

I am not promoting community churches but since you mentioned them it is only fair to say I have also never been in one that did not teach the family over and above all else except God. They are very family centric. And if they are not family centric enough for ones taste you just leave and go somewhere else. Such an atmosphere and attitude is a far cry from the LCS.

If a child is raised in a system that prioritizes family below the minister of the age and all that goes along with such pompous nonsense including the abuse of authority then certainly such a group can be held accountable for the negative influence they exercise. And if the leadership engage in outright hypocrisy with special passes given for the MOTA and his family while clamping down on everyone else then they can hardly expect their youth to take them too seriously when they are adults and can at least physically break free from groups hold.

DJ:

There are a couple of things going on here. Based on this post here and your intial post, I think you are asking two questions, perhaps related but nevertheless different:

1) Are their particular teachings/practices/culture in the LC which produces excessive fleshly behavior in its second generation - more so than in mainstream Christianity?

2) Regardless of what caused the fleshly behavior and regardless of whether it was worse than elsewhere, does its mere existence refute the elitest claims of the LC that they "have it" and are so pure?

These are different inquiries. For the second question, I agree that it doesn't matter whether other groups are better or worse as far as fleshly behavior among the 2nd generation. For the first quesiton, however - the one from your first post, the comparator very much does matter. Do you agree? I have more to say, but first let me know if you get what I mean by the difference of questions here.

Peter

[Paul Cox]

The Church is the Body of Christ. And, of course, the Living Stream Church all but says they are exclusively THE Body of Christ. When addressing problems in the Body, we must look at specific symptoms, and then find out what the systemic problem is, as there is almost always a systemic problem leading to ill health, baring some type of trauma.

If I presented to a doctor, and she or he found a lump in my chest, she or he would, or should, move with all haste to find out what is my root problem. It would be malpractice for them to set back and say, “Okay, now we need to observe what good health problems you have to offset your lump, so we can have a balanced view of what’s going on in your body.” This may be an example full of holes, but I think you get my point.

I see forums, and more specifically threads like this as a lab to find out what was the systemic problem in the Local Church, a system many of us dedicated decades of our lives to. This thread is certainly not supposed to be a fair and balanced view of the Local Church. It’s a thread about spiritual abuse in the Local Church. Excuse me but defending certain localities is altogether besides the point.

There is nothing stated or practiced by any of the Living Stream Church that would indicate that any of them stands alone, and therefore are immune to criticism of the entire LSM. They all stand as one with clinched, raised fist, saying loud AMENS to Anaheim. They do this at least for the two trainings, and the so-called “Seven feasts.” Without exception, every locality which remains loyal to Anaheim has a part in this.

Regardless of what can be said positive about any of the localities, I think abuse was widespread, and there is a systemic problem that addresses it. More than anything, it can probably all be traced back to the “sold out” view with which most hold Witness Lee, his ministry, and his self-appointed successors, “The Blended Brothers.”

Once we have identified the systemic problem then we can start to understand what happened to us. We can also learn what to avoid in the future. But most importantly, our posts and conclusions can serve as a warning and a help to those who maybe considering an entry into the Living Stream Church, and also those who are starting to question, and investigate sites such as this, for their eventual exit. To the later I would certainly say lay the axe, maybe not to the whole group, but certainly to your connection. And yes, run, run as fast as you can in the other direction. It’s a grand deception and most are held under the spell (Gal. 3:1) of Witness Lee.

One of the problems on the other forum was the persistent work by some to torpedo any effort to expose the LSM and its leadership, and its churches. You start a thread pertinent to the issues of the Local Church, and an appeaser would come along and take aim at you, instead of addressing the issue. That’s why I’ve said goodbye to that stagnation for good. It’s becoming almost impossible to get any traction on any subject without appeasers coming along to spoil everything, and imply that we all should just forget everything, and join hands in kumbaya.

I believe we should stay on track. This is a discussion forum about the Local Churches, and this is a thread about spiritual abuse in that group. It’s not about abuse in the denominations, neither is it a discussion about abuse and misbehavior in other Christian groups. Other venues take up these subjects more than adequately. No need to be fair and balanced here. The “baaaaaaady” is sick. Let’s not pull any punches in diagnosing the problems.

Roger

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Roger

The Church is the Body of Christ. And, of course, the Living Stream Church all but says they are exclusively THE Body of Christ. When addressing problems in the Body, we must look at specific symptoms, and then find out what the systemic problem is, as there is almost always a systemic problem leading to ill health, baring some type of trauma.

If I presented to a doctor, and she or he found a lump in my chest, she or he would, or should, move with all haste to find out what is my root problem. It would be malpractice for them to set back and say, “Okay, now we need to observe what good health problems you have to offset your lump, so we can have a balanced view of what’s going on in your body.” This may be an example full of holes, but I think you get my point.

I see forums, and more specifically threads like this as a lab to find out what was the systemic problem in the Local Church, a system many of us dedicated decades of our lives to. This thread is certainly not supposed to be a fair and balanced view of the Local Church. It’s a thread about spiritual abuse in the Local Church. Excuse me but defending certain localities is altogether besides the point.



Roger

Roger, I look forward to your contributions.

Terry

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Igzy on my initial thread I mentioned some behaviors and asked this question: "What role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?"

I think it is clear that Matt and Thankful think idolatry in the LCS is a cause of some problems among the second generation. I don't think it can be argued that idolatry does not exist in the LCS. It's self-evident. Lee is idolized by many including the high priesthood in Anaheim. Nor do I think it can be credibly argued that where idolatry exists people will not be negatively affected. Obviously idolatry will have an adverse effect on people and their children.

Is idolatry the only issue? I don't think so. Was everyone involved? I have no way of knowing this and neither does anyone else. How can we know the hearts and minds of thousands of people?

I am well aware that my original thread starting question falls within the realm of social science and that social science is considered a "soft science" in terms of arriving at conclusive irrefutable data. I opened this thread not because I thought some conclusive cause and effect item would be discovered but because I thought it would be a good idea to explore the issue. We do know environment plays a significant role in child development and subsequent adult behaviors. And since the LCS was such a pervasive environment it surely played a role. We may never determine the exact measure of that role but we might be wiser for the exploration. I think the number of readers of this thread is an indication that the issue is of high interest to many.

[Cal]

dj,

So "LCS" stands for "local church system?"

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Igzy if some feel they are outside the bounds of courtesy they should do something about it. It is not my role to decide this for others.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Igzy yes LCS = Local Church System. How do you like it? I was thinking of WLS i.e. Witness Lee System but he's dead - sorta. Then I thought maybe BBS i.e Blended Brothers System but then I was thinking that with all the divisive activity going on it wasn't inclusive enough.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Igzy yes LCS = Local Church System. How do you like it? I was thinking of WLS i.e. Witness Lee System but he's dead - sorta. Then I thought maybe BBS i.e Blended Brothers System but then I was thinking that with all the divisive activity going on it wasn't inclusive enough.

Works for me. Thanks for clarifying.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by djohnson

I think the number of readers of this thread is an indication that the issue is of high interest to many.

Either that or another example of people's fascination for train wrecks.


It's just a joke, folks.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Is idolatry the only issue? I don't think so. Was everyone involved? I have no way of knowing this and neither does anyone else. How can we know the hearts and minds of thousands of people?

Well, since you are the thread starter and you mentioned there might be other factors, let me take the opportunity to talk about some others.

First, I think second-generation failure is a concern for many church leaders and a reality for the LCS. Why does it happen? Why aren't the children of the faithful faithful?

The first reason is probably related to children's natural desire to distinguish themselves from their parents, combined with their seeing the hypocrisy and inconsistences they are privy to by living with their parents. This is probably true in all cases.

In the case of the LCS, I think the problem is likely significantly due to failing to put the message in a form which the young people find compelling and accessible. Kids, it's been show again and again, are attracted to things which relate to them and which fit into their world. This is always a challenge and since the LCS believes in not tinkering with WL's message or delivery, the kids pretty much get the same stuff in the same way the grownups do. This is a great way to encourage failure.

This leads us back to the fact that a church diet consisting mostly of high theology doesn't appeal to everyone. It's been a hard lesson to me, and I think a practical lesson for many pastors, that some people are just, as Lee called them, "mooing cows." Well, guess what? God called you to shepherd those cows and if serving them your high theology seven days a week isn't getting the results you want, maybe that should tell you something. As the Lord told his disciples, "You feed them." If they aren't eating what you are dishing up perhaps you should try a different recipe.

JMHO.

[blessD]

After I left the local churches, I spent time (20 years) visiting and becoming involved in all types of churches (not all at once). I was seeking to find the truth on many points.

I don't see much similarity, really, between Witness Lee and the local churches and these various Christian teachers and groups. I have never seen the same level of arrogance, pride, exclusion, leader-worship, error in teaching, etc. as I saw come from Witness Lee and the local churches. Effective preachers/teachers are pretty humble. Most Christians are open to reaching out to any other Christian regardless of the church they attend. They reach out without motive of bringing them into 'the fold'. Some are reading their Bibles regularly and seeking the Lord in their everyday life, but they don't take the view they are superior to others. These usually avoid putting too much emphasis on a human preacher/teacher knowing worship belongs to Jesus, the King of Kings.

Therefore, I just don't get the attempt to validate the wrong-doings or abuses of Witness Lee and the local churches by saying there is similarity between other Christian teachers or groups. They (other preachers and groups) aren't touting they are the one true church and have 'the light' on the earth today.

So, to me, it doesn't pass the Duck Test: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I would call it a duck.

Surely, I cannot be alone in my 20 year Duck Test and conclusion that it doesn't walk or quack like a duck.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by blessD

...Surely, I cannot be alone in my 20 year Duck Test and conclusion that it doesn't walk or quack like a duck.

You're not alone, BlessD.

Nell

[kisstheson]

Hello dear sister BlessD,

I have not been away from the LC nearly as long as you have, but like you I have received much mercy from the Lord and He has granted me a seeking heart. (How I need to fall on my face before Him and thank and praise Him!) Since leaving the LC, I have fellowshipped with a good number of Christians from several home churches, community churches, and free groups. I also still occassionally get together with a few brothers from the LC. Besides all this fellowship from many sources, our dear Lord has greatly blessed me by opening my eyes to the riches which can be found in the writings and speakings of many dear ministers of Christ besides Nee and Lee.

Having been through all this, and having considered all this before the Lord, my basic conclusion remains: In the LSM-loyal LC there is a visible, tangible, lack of both a spirit of repentance and a spirit of love, and this lack continues to grow over time. In the place of a spirit of repentance and a spirit of love, there exists a terrible spirit of religious jealousy. I love so many there, but over time the LSM system continues to grow further and further away from the Lord. So many dear ones don't know anything else and don't know what to do. This saddens me and grieves my heart to no end. :verysad:

May God be merciful to them and may he continue to be merciful to all of us.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Ohio
Much has been said concerning idolatry in Israel, and we all could find many O.T. scripture to build a case, but I still have a gnawing question -- why did the Lord never address idolatry in the gospels. The Lord rebuked the Jewish leaders severely, even calling them "snakes" to their face, but never brought up the word "idol" or its many variants. This troubles me.

The Lord did address many serious heart matters repeatedly, such as hypocrisy, loving traditions of men, lording it over others, stubbornness, unbelief, etc. but He never once mentioned idolatry in Israel, when He walked the earth. Why is that? Did He forget? In fact, the N.T. is dead silent on idolatry until Stephen brought up Israel's history in Ac 7.41-43.

Dear Ohio,

The O.T. Scriptures are for our learning. God did not fill the O.T. with warnings about idolatry just to fill the pages with print. According to the Bible, whatever is there is for our learning. The Bible says:

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

(Note: both of these passages are referring to the O.T. because it was the only “scriptures” they had when Paul wrote these words.)

Are you suggesting that if Jesus didn’t mention something that is clearly mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, His words, to the exclusion of others in the Scriptures, should become a standard for our understanding the Word of God? This strikes at something very fundamental in what we believe, which is that all Scripture is God-breathed. I don’t believe the red letter verses are more the Word of God than others, do you?

If the standard for understanding the Word of God is “Did Jesus mention or not mention something?” then you can reduce your Bible to the red letters and whatever passages in the O.T. they refer to, and be done with it. To say that Jesus didn’t say something is not a biblical argument.

Does it “gnaw” at you if people talk about other things in the Bible that Jesus did not mention? I don’t remember him talking about Adam and the garden of Eden. I am sure we could think of other things in the O.T. that he didn’t talk about when he was on earth.

Also, we shouldn’t forget that the New Testament speaks about spiritual realities. The O.T. was given to help us understand concepts that are not easy to understand. We no longer have animal sacrifices and all the various offerings literally, but they help us understand the sacrifice of God's son and what that means spiritually. It is the same with idolatry. There is a spiritual application.

Jesus may not have said the word “idolatry” but he clearly expresses the idea when he says we cannot serve two masters and when he says we should love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, strength, referring to the ten commandments. What will you do with I Cor. 10:14 where Paul clearly told us to flee idolatry, after pointing back to the idolatry of the children of Israel. (BTW, this is a passage that you could use to argue that God doesn’t judge all ... because he said “some” repeatedly. I’m all for biblical discussion, even if I argue the other side a bit. It's always a good thing if we are handling the Word of God ourselves. J)

Originally Posted by Ohio
The Lord also nearly put no responsibility on the sheep. He placed it all squarely and pointedly and repeatedly on their leaders, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, fools, serpents, blind hypocrites!"

Your use of “nearly no” referring to the sheep and then “all” referring to the leaders is confusing. Which is it? We know that He puts responsibility on us as sheep for our own actions because we will have to give account in that day for the things done in our body. I think this means we should be careful not to try and lay blame that is ours elsewhere. I do agree, however, that the lionshare of blame goes on the leaders. Jer. 23 and Ez. 34 make that clear. This does not absolve us for submitting to bad leaders when they were in violation of the word of God, because we were commanded to serve God only.

Originally Posted by Ohio
When the N.T. finally confronted idols for the first time, it was circa A.D. 50, at the Acts 15 council, which was supposed to be all about circumcision and the way of salvation. Since James et. al. were overwhelmed by the testimonies of Simeon and the plain truths of scripture, James decided to divert their attention to "abstain from things sacrificed to idols." Talking about changing the subject! It was Jewish pride and religious prejudices in Jerusalem which first introduced the topic of idolatry to the church. Interestingly, when Paul did finally travel to Europe, and confronted the rampant Greek idolatry in Athens and Corinth, he played down the matter of "abstaining," and instead instituted the first "don't ask, don't tell" policy (I Cor 10.25).

I don’t have time to look into this now. You are only speculating about why James did what he did. I don’t agree that this was the first introduction to the church of the topic of idolatry. The Jewish people understood idolatry quite well having under their belt the history of the Babylonian captivity which took place when God judged them for their idolatries. This was not a foreign topic. Also, there were people who had practiced idolatry before, who were coming to Christ and being admitted to the church. Their past way of life would easily be a topic. (That’s some of my speculation.)

Originally Posted by Ohio
Martin Luther, in the early 16th century, as he was facing all the power of the Pope at the Diet of Worms, said that he would not budge unless convicted by "plain reason or the scriptures." Both have been offered here in abundance. Neither has been heard.

No, Ohio,scriptural arguments have not been offered in “abundance.” I think that’s exaggeration. So is your statement that “neither has been heard.” I once heard a counselor say not to mix up “hearing” with “agreeing.” It would be more true to say “neither has been agreed with or accepted.”

Originally Posted by Ohio

There is enough "Biblical balance" in this one recent post of mine, to meet all your requirements.

I’m sorry for hastily saying there was no biblical balance offered. So far you and Roger have brought forth two posts with biblical arguments. So, yes, there was a some, but I believe these were greatly outweighed by the volume of responses without biblical argumentation. My statement was probably influenced by the fact that I have put out numerous biblical arguments on this thread that no one has responded to, except for Peter D. who responded to one of them. Care to respond to what I wrote in post # 750?

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Roger

I can see your point, Jane. But let me ask a further question. It is clear from the book of Galatians that those who "came down from James," perhaps had indeed taken their preference of an apostle to the same extreme as those who are devoted to Witness Lee. Would you say that they were engaging in idolatry? Was the idol James, or was it the Old Testament Law?

Originally Posted by Roger

Not a trick question. They are beyond my ability to concoct. Just wondering.

Roger

PS I am the chief of those who speak from “my general impression.” Thanks for helping me to be more thourough.

Dear Roger,

Yes, general impressions seem to rule the day here on both sides of arguments. Sigh.

To answer your question about James and his followers, I don’t think we have enough information to make the comparison to Lee and his followers. We know plenty enough about Lee and his followers to make statements about how their beliefs and practices compare to idolatry. I doubt seriously James was like Lee. Maybe Diotrophes was. Also, James was willing to make concessions later. That doesn’t sound like Lee.

Roger I don’t think that “devotion” is the only test for idolatry. Who/what we serve and obey more than God is a better test and one we can measure because we can see deeds done that are disobedient to God. We can’t measure “love” or “devotion” because they are feelings of the heart. I actually agree with the argument that idolatry is far reaching (outside of the LC.) I really don’t have a problem calling it what it is, wherever it is, even when it fits me. The LC idolatry goes beyond just loving some things. They fight to protect these things as God’s very truth and are willing to exclude others based on their own definition of what is true. This takes it to another level of seriousness.

What I don’t get is why it seems so important to avoid applying the idolatry shoe to all feet that it fits. Isn’t forgiveness only a few breaths of confession to God away? Do we need to defend our own or others works as righteous? According to the Bible, our best, even if it seems defensible to us, is but filthy rags to Him.

Why do we need to protect people from hearing something they might not like to hear? Shouldn’t every person be given information to evaluate and reach their own conclusion? Do we really need to “protect” people from hearing certain arguments. In my opinion, part of the sickness in the LC today is a result of just such “protection.” People weren't allowed to develop discernment by experience and exercising their senses to know both good and evil. People don't develop strong immune systems without exposure to germs. They get antibodies this way. The LC folks are defenseless because they have not been allowed or encouraged to think for themselves.

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Toledo

And the "broad brush" complaint still applies: Not everyone in all the local churches were/are devoted to Witness Lee. For many of us he was (and remains) a valued bible teacher and no more.

If the broad brush doesn’t apply, it doesn’t apply. I still don't see anything wrong with broad brush observations, definitions, or applications. If people’s deeds cause them to fit under the picture that brush paints, then they apply to them. If they don’t fit, then they don’t apply.

I am assuming from what you say that you never submitted to any demands made by Witness Lee, but only appreciated his teachings. Am I correct about this?

Toledo, if a believer willingly submits to and obeys the demands of someone who tells them to do something that is against God’s word, isn’t such serving of someone else other than God an act of idolatry?

Thankful Jane

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

No, Ohio,scriptural arguments have not been offered in “abundance.” I think that’s exaggeration. So is your statement that “neither has been heard.” I once heard a counselor say not to mix up “hearing” with “agreeing.” It would be more true to say “neither has been agreed with or accepted.”

I’m sorry for hastily saying there was no biblical balance offered. So far you and Roger have brought forth two posts with biblical arguments. So, yes, there was a some, but I believe these were greatly outweighed by the volume of responses without biblical argumentation. My statement was probably influenced by the fact that I have put out numerous biblical arguments on this thread that no one has responded to, except for Peter D. who responded to one of them. Care to respond to what I wrote in post # 750?

Thankful Jane

TJ, some of your comments are too obvious to respond to. I do not necessarily need to quote a verse to speak the word of God, in fact, all too often verses quoted neither support nor refute the point proffered. If I say that we should not categorically condemn all God's people as idolaters, how many scripture do I need?

Btw, post #750 is just too long for me to comment on.

And, also btw, "fair and balanced" can be well described by the word "forbearance." It is an excellent virtue of Christians. That's why it should be made known to others. In this godly virtue, the Lord is near. Some of the extreme views I have read here I would not want anyone to hear or know.

TJ, we can talk about this forever and get no where. The matter is simple. The N.T. does not support the extreme views on idolatry in all the LC's that are promoted by some on this thread. I personally feel, as I posted, that if the matter was that urgent for Israel, then the Lord would have addressed it while on earth, but he did not. Considering the breadth of topics covered in the gospels, this is legitimate.

You are entitled to your views also. Peace.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

... I do not necessarily need to quote a verse to speak the word of God, ...

Uh...yeah...I think you do. Maybe you'd better 'splain this one. As a minimum, whatever you must agree with scripture. Is that what you mean?

Nell

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

In the LSM-loyal LC there is a visible, tangible, lack of both a spirit of repentance and a spirit of love, and this lack continues to grow over time. In the place of a spirit of repentance and a spirit of love, there exists a terrible spirit of religious jealousy. I love so many there, but over time the LSM system continues to grow further and further away from the Lord. So many dear ones don't know anything else and don't know what to do. This saddens me and grieves my heart to no end.

Amen and amen

[Suannehill]

Originally Posted by djohnson

I have learned that among those who grew up in the LCS many face social issues. Some that I am familiar with are: alcoholism, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, divorce, paying for sex i.e. engaging in services of prostitutes, infidelity, porn addiction...

My question is: what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?

As a Mom who raised four kids...I see things a little differently...
Here, the brothers and sisters were a genuine "keeping" factor for my children. Thanks to many in Cleveland and Columbus who labored to their own exhaustion with the young people.
We knew nothing of the foolishness in Anaheim.

However, the corruption of those in California and elsewhere had to have had a ruinous effect upon the spiritual life of EVERYONE receiving materials out of the corrupted well.

Last thought...I did not reject Jim Dobson and other believers who prayerfully had suggestions and ways to help. Poor poor Christianity had practical things to offer that the LC ignored.

Did my children tun out perfectly? Of course not! Did they make many mistakes? OH yes they did.

I was blessed in that the Lord provided a small circle of sisters for me (not in LC) to pray with. We took back our homes from the enemy in prayer. We walked the streets of our tiny town in twos and threes praying as we walked. In a year we had stopped and prayed over EVERY house in town. We prayed over the playgrounds, stores, Post Office and any structure we came upon. We got permission to walk through the halls of the JR High and we prayed over the classrooms. People even would wave and smile and encourage us to keep praying. We went to each other's homes and anointed the home and prayed over each room. It became an incredible time of ministry and Life! I felt like I was in a revival equal to any seen anywhere. I cannot begin to list the things that transpired during these years.

So...while I see the corruption in LC, I cannot blame them for anything in the young people here because the young people were mostly protected.
Sue

[Hope]

Dear Sister Suannehill,

What a wonderful testimony! I have a dream that many believers would compile such experiences and record them as is mentioned in Mal 3:16, Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. NASB
Maybe someone would pick this up. The internet gives a way for this to be done on a wide scale.

Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple

[Paul Cox]

To all, especially Matt, Jane and John Anderson,

I feel totally ashamed that it took the writing of others to prompt me to do this. I should have come forward long ago. I would visit from time to time and was grieved at how this thread had suddenly gone cold. But here I am today, fully in need of the Lord’s mercy.

I want to publicly apologize to Matt Anderson for the way I communicated to him on this thread. It was rude, insensitive and unbecoming a brother. He did nothing to deserve such treatment from me.

While I couldn’t fully agree with him on the matter of idolatry, there was no excuse to accuse him and try and put him down the way I did. It was also way over the top for me to try and intimidate him by pointing out the difference in our ages. I was truly not acting like the mature one.

I certainly feel responsible for Matt’s and Jane’s leaving. For that I am truly sorry. I would ask you to please accept my apology, and please rejoin us in the hand of fellowship. Your portion is sorely needed.

I sincerely pray that I have caused no long term damage by what I have done. I remember John and Jane from way back, and I hold the Anderson family in high regard. I want to say that before the principalities and powers, in the air, and before all who read these words.

By the Lord’s mercy, from now on, I should like to agree, or disagree with my brothers and sisters in Christ, with the full respect for the Life of the Father which we all hold in common.

Your brother
“Roger”

[Cal]

I myself don't feel I should apologize for anything on I wrote on this thread. But I do wish Jane and Matt would reappear. I miss them.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Often times, within the Recovery, "the work" with the full-timers as "managers" creates a "business" out of the church, with the many members as "employees" of the enterprise, carrying the latest "agenda" from headquarters. As such, the saints are often poor "employees," since they may not be well-suited for the tasks assigned to them. The leaders, as such, rarely take into account the actual needs and wants of the saints, since their condition takes second place to the "program." This "top down" management style almost becomes synonymous with the definition of a denomination. For such a "business" to prosper, the elders as middle "managers" must be able to hire and fire incompetent performers, else their own performance, as viewed by headquarters, suffers. Hence, the saints, like myself, become a liability, not an asset, to the program.

Hello Ohio,
On your post on middle management. Does that mean elders are not functioning in the way we were once accustomed to? In relation to 1 Timothy. Rather than having the relationship with a locality as a shepherd would be to his flock, what you see are elders functioning as a manager over a franchise? For example promoting Living Stream publications, tithing, training enrollment, etc.
Perhaps what has changed is what their role has become. More involvement with the work aspect and an assumption the flock will take care of the flock?

Terry

[juliep]

This is probably getting redundant for some of you, but I grew up with the Whitingtons since I was 5 years old. My mother and I lived in the "Big House" in Denton way back in the day, with George and Cleo. We used to all walk to Stonewall Elementary School with Grace as our leader - since she was the oldest. Grace - is the oldest, Ginny -one of my best friends growing up (and yes she died of complications from mitral valve prolapse / a malady we have in common and we thought it was funny at the time - that we both had the same thing), makes me cry thinking of her even now...Martha is the youngest girl and Steven is the youngest of all and kept us on our toes! Little rascal - and I say that with much love!
My experience with Cleo was she was the most supportive person in my life. More so than my own parents. In her younger years in Dallas when we kids were in junior high and high school she kept us in line for sure, there was no one like her, and probably won't ever be.
George was always quite, and when I went through some rough times as a freshman in college he was very protective of me from the other "elders" in Dallas and stood by me in a very loving and supportive way (again, more than my own parents). When other people from the local church were judging the Whitingtons were loving!
I was grown and no longer involved with the LC when Cleo was diagnosed with MS, and I have to say (maybe for selfish reasons) I am somewhat thankful I never saw her wheelchair bound and can remember her always as the woman she was when she was healthy and vibrant!
Enough reminiscing for now...

[Hope]

Originally Posted by juliep

...George was always quite, and when I went through some rough times as a freshman in college he was very protective of me from the other "elders" in Dallas and stood by me in a very loving and supportive way (again, more than my own parents). When other people from the local church were judging the Whitingtons were loving!..

Who were the other elders in Dallas from whom you needed protecting? I never remember once speaking with you regarding any personal issue either privately or in any group. Why slam "other people from the local church?" Was it the Masseys, the Philleys, the Lurveys, the Lamps, the Wilsons, the Reimers, the Megahans, the Houses, the Kirks, the Brashears, the Jaynes, the Shells, the Hunters or maybe some of the young saints, Phyllis, Mike, Tommy, Randy, Keith and on and on. All of these kind and generous people are some of the other people from the local church. Do you indict them all? I frankly doubt if any from Dallas other than your parents confronted you regarding the issue of your suffering. If I am wrong you can easily identify them to me by private message and I will post regarding my terrible presumption.

Don Rutledge

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Igzy

**hit arrow to see post

I have already responded to this post by Igzy. To me it was very accurate. The above is not the entire post but does give a fair both sides evaluation and gives a clear impression about which side of the scales was the predominate side.

Jane Anderson wrote a book about the local church. The book began with an account of a humiliating experience she suffered. The date was 1977. I believe she and her husband had been associated with the local churches since at least 1968. I have found it more than interesting that she starts the story with this event. Any reader would have to assume this was more than an isolated event. Later another humiliating experience is recounted which was suffered by a teenage girl. It has many similarities to her experience.

I can only speak from my experience. From 1965-1986, I cannot recall being in such a called gathering. I knew nothing of the one that occurred in Houston. I heard of some people in some places being called down publicly but never of a called meeting for the purpose of humiliating an individual or group of individuals. Yes, during Max Rapoport's time there were called elders gatherings for this purpose. Yes, there were such meetings after 1986. They were called and directed at specific leading brothers, but not at individual brothers or sisters or teenagers. When I complete my history, I will detail some of these. But I hope to first set a clear stage that this was not the way it always was and it was the great exception to the day to day church life.

I have been on the receiving end of rebukes in private and semi-private gatherings for alleged improper actions in discharging responsibilities related to church leadership. I have witnessed others receiving similar rebukes. I did not appreciate the one way flow and the presumption of the one bringing the rebuke. I would label this according to my definition as bullying.
I have seen a new “flow” presented by an LSM/LC cadre that railed on the brothers and sisters in general and accused them of unfaithfulness, immaturity, dullness, or being cows or such nonsense. I call this bullying. But what Jane Anderson described in her book is beyond bullying. Both her experience and the experience of the young sister are way beyond the line of decency and respect. How accurate are the accounts? I cannot say since I was not there in either case nor did I ever hear of the events until the forums. But I can say this kind of event was not what was going on! What about the 8-9 years before this infamous meeting?

I have witnessed individual elders abuse individual brothers or sisters. I have heard of such instances. These were very rare before the late 70s and were the actions of a very few persons. This should not have happen but it was not the norm.

Thus, posters, be sure, if an individual case is presented in an explosive manner such that it throws an indiscriminant blanket of guilt and shame over many persons and places, I may be compelled to respond. The forum should not be a place where any may take a free shot and vent due to some disappointing experience and not expect any push back. That is the way of the BBs and the LSM. No push back allowed.

If you need to vent and healing often requires some venting, remember not to do to some innocent persons the very thing you suffered. I learned on the forums the term judgaholic. This also cuts both ways. While we critique the Local Church movement, remember Rom 2:1, Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. NASB

Don Rutledge

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Hope

I have witnessed individual elders abuse individual brothers or sisters. I have heard of such instances. These were very rare before the late 70s and were the actions of a very few persons. This should not have happen but it was not the norm.

Well, then, let me ask you to speak to this, Hope.

Isn't frequency of occurrence an irrelevant consideration if everyone is endeavoring in fear to minimize the frequency?

If my father thrashes me mercilessly with a belt until I am black and blue, though he does that only once, and I remain rightly terrified of it happening again because of subtle threats of a recurrence, is my younger brother unreasonable in concluding that this is a "norm?"

And more to the point of what I think gets you motivated on this topic, does my mother unreasonably bear some semblance of responsibilty in the eyes of my younger brother for the situation continuing, even though I lied to her when she asked me about where the bruises came from?

I know you can't prove a negative, Hope, and I don't ask you to do so.

I just wonder if you agree with my way of viewing such matters.

I admit I might be wrong and I've taken your correction before.

Thank you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

If my father thrashes me mercilessly with a belt until I am black and blue, though he does that only once, and I remain rightly terrified of it happening again because of subtle threats of a recurrence, is my younger brother unreasonable in concluding that this is a "norm?"

YP, let me add a twist to your hypothetical. Suppose you had an older brother who was a beloved star athlete whom nobody messed with, let alone your dad. He would never know the fear that you or younger brother knew. Bully types tend to pick on those who are more vulnerable. I may be talking hypotheticals here, but these are real people I am thinking of.

[YP0534]

That is another wrinkle, Ohio, but it does correlate with what I mean to say.

You could even add another layer in that you and the younger brother didn't have to fear the dad while the older brother was around.

[juliep]

Dont know how to quote the post I am responding to but this is about Hope actually saying he doubts what I posted earlier about my experience with some of the elders in Dallas really happened. How ridiculous. I have better things to do as an adult 46 year old woman than try to make up things from way back then. Of course it happened, and if that hurts someones feelings I'm sorry, but truth is truth.
I kept the post fairly vague on purpose so as not to accuse anyone in particular because I'm not here to for that purpose. I'm trying to find the other kids who were around at the time I was (long time ago - late 60's to early 80's). My guess is most of the adults in that time period may not know what we are talking about, as kids go through experiences and share things among themselves that the adults around them are not privy too.This will be the only time I respond to an accusation like this, and if thats the kind of thing that goes on in this forum - I'm out. I thought it was a safe place we could share our experiences...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

That is another wrinkle, Ohio, but it does correlate with what I mean to say.

You could even add another layer in that you and the younger brother didn't have to fear the dad while the older brother was around.

I thought about that, but it mostly never happened. I have never seen one brother protest public abuses on behalf of another. Maybe it happened, but I never saw it. I have heard of some, however, who "resisted politely."

Mostly, I was trying to portray the scenario that two people with different backgrounds, though they were in the same environment, would be treated differently, and hence have different observations to report.

For example, one of the brothers I served with as deacons was a champion fighter. He got his too, but was not treated as badly as I. I wonder why.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Well, then, let me ask you to speak to this, Hope.

Isn't frequency of occurrence an irrelevant consideration if everyone is endeavoring in fear to minimize the frequency?

If my father thrashes me mercilessly with a belt until I am black and blue, though he does that only once, and I remain rightly terrified of it happening again because of subtle threats of a recurrence, is my younger brother unreasonable in concluding that this is a "norm?"

And more to the point of what I think gets you motivated on this topic, does my mother unreasonably bear some semblance of responsibilty in the eyes of my younger brother for the situation continuing, even though I lied to her when she asked me about where the bruises came from?

I know you can't prove a negative, Hope, and I don't ask you to do so.

I just wonder if you agree with my way of viewing such matters.

I admit I might be wrong and I've taken your correction before.

Thank you.

Dear Brother YP0534,

The hypothetical father you described bears a lot of responsibility for how he disciplined the son. I do not know if you are a father but it is an awesome responsibility. Your children may be helped a little by consistent excellent parenting and then you can blow years by one bad day. Once the abuse has been administered, it seldom is forgotten. The siblings also are greatly influenced by the one bad day. But as a parent you can not give up. God is merciful.

Now what about your parallel to an elder or leading brother who abuses one of the sheep. Scary!! Consider the following verses:

James 3:1, Let not many of you become teachers , my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment.

1 Thess 5:12-14, But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, 13 and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another. 14 And we urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with all men.

Heb 13:7-8, Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

Heb 13:17, Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. NASB

A brother seems to be much better off if he never has any kind of leadership or responsibility. Consider the very very high standard for a leader, "And we urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with all men." Too often I fear I was found encouraging the unruly, admonishing and discouraging the fainthearted, hindering the weak and being frustrated with all.

Now here is one of the problems with evaluating the Local Churches. An elder pulls a stunt in someplace USA. Real saints are stumbled and wounded. This story becomes a proof case for the state of the whole. Is this a proper evaluation? What do you think?

Were the child molesters in Boston in the Catholic church what you could expect in a Catholic church in Houston Texas? What if you found a pedophile in a Catholic high school in Houston? Case closed?

What if we discovered that some poster, maybe me, was a little loose with the facts in order to make his point. Do we throw out the entire forum and further does this allow the BB's to dismiss all who protest their practices?

Over the years there were many storms in the LSM/LC. In every storm there were very sincere, pure brothers and sisters who protested some damaging practice. At the same time, there were some unruly ones who seemed to see this as an opportunity for whatever motive they had. The LSM would throw the genuine protestors into the same bucket as the disorderly ones and use this to discredit any protest. Thus, I am compelled not to be loose when building a proof case of abuse and error.

On the other hand, can you condemn all fathers in all places because of a few child abusers. I once heard a radical, man hating, woman’s libber declare that every father was a potential child molester. Maybe she had had a negative experience or her best friend had had an abusive father. Then does that make it all right for her to make such a sweeping accusation. That charge did lodge in my brain. Sometimes I will be in a wonderful couples home and the children will be frolicking with the dad and that terrible hateful charge will come to my mind.

I need to stop here. Thanks for the post and the set up illustration.

Hope, Don Rutledge

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Hope

On the other hand, can you condemn all fathers in all places because of a few child abusers.

OK but see, that's really nothing to do with my illustration.

It's OK though. Don't worry about it.

I'm really just suggesting that ALL of us are hurt because SOME of us are hurt and ALL of those with responsibility (including maybe me) end up bearing SOME responsibility.

From my perspective, it's not really even relevant to say "I didn't know."

Still, obviously no one can be required to entertain anything other than the formal indictments against elders in accordance with proper scriptural precepts!

I'm not really comfortable even going there with regard to what happened to me personally, similar to what others have testified to, so the likelihood of satisfactory proof of such things remains slim. And the expectation that the walking wounded who have had their reputations publicly smeared will muster what it takes to proceed through formal channels with the very people who have wounded and smeared (or their compatriots) is totally unrealistic to me. But perhaps one day two or three will stand together against an oppressive elder as you envision and not be shunned for their rebellion.

They will certainly be far more transformed than I am if they can do it!

Anyhow, if the father next door never addresses or even notices my bruises, it's not his fault at all.

You are right about that.

[finallyprettyokay]

Well, I admit I was touchy when I wrote. So far, I am not feeling too much grief and embarrassment. Yet.

I will refer to a second case, which I brought out into the open, that is the fathom church in Dallas bank account used to transfer Living Stream Money to disgruntled Daystar investors. I told exactly how I learned of it's existence and exactly who was involved. Thus, George Whitington, Don Looper, Joe Davis, Ray Graver, Tim House, Jim Coleman etc were not by mere association with the local churches in Texas implicated. I received several hot posts and messages about how stupid, incompetent, unqualified, weak, blind and conscienceless I was. I admitted all charges were true and I deserved the approbation. The blame came to the rightful person, yours truly. But I could have said that the church in Dallas was in on a money laundering type scheme and let the entire congregation or at least all the elders and maybe some deacons be condemned.

Don, I remember quite well when you wrote about Daystar/money. I was so moved by your sense of contrition. I PMed you and then decided to post what I had written -- do you remember? I had no idea that you had been getting 'hot posts and messages' --- that was certainly not what I wrote to you. It never even occured to me to question your experience, or your present response to that experience.

Mistakes? Boy howdy. I've made more than a few, and there are things from my LC time that I regret. And things happened to me or around me that were not at all right. People humilated and shamed in small ways or in big ways. It was a very toxic place.

Dear sister, you referred to your time in San Diego. Suppose someone had told you that the elders in groups of 6-7 or more were hauling in young teenage girls to interrogate and humiliate them would you have been a little shocked and wondering if the report was at least a little over the top.

I was in San Diego also. If someone related a story like this to me I think I would wonder about it. Of course I would. But what I know for sure is that we all have done things that seemed okay at the time, but that we just didn't think through. My mom was always saying to me 'think!'. Sometimes I still get caught not thinking something through. So if someone told me this story and it involved people I knew to be good, decent, God-loving people, I would wonder if they had thought it through. And I would wonder if the young person in the story had recovered pretty well from it.

I think Roger hit it when he said your tone seemed to imply that you didn't believe her. And he hit it when he said he believes you both. Exactly.

And my guess is that anyone that was involved in such a meeting with a young person looks back with contrition. I hope so. It was a very very toxic place and really bad things (large and small) happened to people, but still -- mostly, we were good people trying to follow God. Let's try to understand and support each other as we share and make sense out of things that happened.

Not-Touchy-Enough, Igzy? I hope. No, Don's hope. I'm

finallyprettyokay sorta okay?

[Hope]

Finallyprettyokay,

Thanks for the post. My heart is warmed. I sincerely desire that we can put all this behind us.

I do remember your kind post. May the Lord bless and remember you for your kindness to a brother who had failed.

I am going to make one more post on this topic and then I am probably saying goodbye to this thread except for reading the responses to my final post.

I look forward to seeing you on another thread. I would love to meet you in person some time.

In Christ Jesus,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Hope

Dear Brother YP0534,
Now here is one of the problems with evaluating the Local Churches. An elder pulls a stunt in someplace USA. Real saints are stumbled and wounded. This story becomes a proof case for the state of the whole. Is this a proper evaluation? What do you think?
Were the child molesters in Boston in the Catholic church what you could expect in a Catholic church in Houston Texas? What if you found a pedophile in a Catholic high school in Houston? Case closed?

Case closed? I dunno.

You see, if you heard about child molestation in Boston and a couple of other places, you can be certain that there is the potential for child molestation in a Catholic church in Houston, or anywhere else. Why?

The Catholic Church creates an atmosphere for that kind of thing, starting with the hard line law of celibacy. Then they take these young men, who are trying to hold down a campfire with a cotton sheet, and put them in situations where they will be working alone with young altar boys, and wives of other men who absolutely adore their priests.

That right there is a prescription for disaster. It leaves open the possibility for all kinds of sexual abuse throughout the whole system, although it doesn’t take place throughout the system.

History records every kind of sexual abuse and perversion that can be imagined, having happened in the Catholic Church; because the leadership created that kind of atmosphere, starting with the first bright penny who got the idea that God was telling him that priests should be celibate.

The problem is that all priests throughout the whole system are absolutely loyal to the system. So when a priest in Boston abuses a child, he might be shuffled away somewhere secretly, with the hope that eventually all will be forgotten. And, although no priests in Houston might have ever been close to doing such a thing, they will defend, directly, or indirectly, the actions of the system.

I’m sorry, but your response to the report of abuse in the Local Church sounds so familiar. The “innocent” priest in Houston will insist that these are just isolated incidents, and that the system really is quite good. Actually, the system is rotten to the core. The tragedy is that you have these men who know nothing about the Holy Spirit, trying to tame the flesh with religious ordnances. It’s a recipe for disaster.

The Local Church created an atmosphere for abuse. The basic problem is reverence for the leadership. This starts with the number one, “Apostle for the Age,” and “Acting God.” Nowhere was the absolute reverence for Witness Lee stronger than among some of the Texas brothers. You have said as much in your book.

With this kind of reverence comes a sense, on the part of the followers, that Lee and his closest associates can do no wrong. On the part of the leadership, it makes them drunk with power. It makes them feel good, on some level, to have saints scraping and bowing at their every word.

It has been my observation that the root problem with the Living Stream Church is an improper view of, and a dying loyalty to Witness Lee. It would also appear that with many who have left, the LSM style problems that continue to hang on with them, is still their refusal to cast Witness Lee in the proper light.

Mind you, brother, I am not accusing you of anything. I respect your history, and have never heard anything out of order about you. But the system you are defending is ripe with potential for all kinds of abuse.

Roger

[Hope]

Roger,

Your’s is a very good rebuttal to my very weak and faulty analogy.

Right on regarding the "idea" or "ideal" that messed up everything.

I certainly did not mean to come across as a defender of that system. Lord help us!!! But I cannot side with the idea that it is nothing but corruption and all the people there are worthless or of no value. I will come down on the damage that Max Rapoport caused but I will first tell of the positive things he did. I certainly appreciate the help in Christ I received from him.

It is an interesting phenomenon that among those still in the local churches, they cannot acknowledge that any former members or leaders had anything good but rather just write them out of their history. But I have seen some former member do the same thing, that is that those in the local churches and the current leaders are only corrupt and have never given them anything of Christ.

Don

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by djohnson

I have learned that among those who grew up in the LCS many face social issues. Some that I am familiar with are: alcoholism, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, divorce, paying for sex i.e. engaging in services of prostitutes, infidelity, porn addiction.
My guess is that once the hypocrisy of the leaders became well known something "snapped" in a lot of the youth. A subculture that was restricting them thus became a culprit in their lustful pursuits. This dynamic coupled with the mainstream media bombardment gave license for their behavior.
My question is: what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?

May I suggest we try to steer this thread back to the original question put forth here?

I have 30+(+!) years of experience (in and out) with the Local Church, and it it is my observation that "many" (as compared to just a few) young people who grew up in the movement do indeed face social issues of various kinds and of varying degrees. Whether or not they face them to a greater degree then those of any other Christian group nobody can say. All the problems that djohnson has listed here are extremely common in general society, and are much more common among Christians then we would probably care to admit. I do think his proposition, or "guess" as he says, that "something snapped" in a lot of the youth is a pretty big leap of speculation here, but his guess is just as good as ours... I guess

So, what roll did the Local Church culture/religion/system play in all this? I would ad (along with those who grew up in the LC), the large number of young people that came into the LC while in their teen years (like me)

In my opinion there is no doubt that young minds and hearts get confused when they are constantly bombarded with notions that the group they are in are "God's move on earth", "THE Lord's Recovery", "God's eternal purpose", and then they see that their parents/relatives/leaders aren't quite the "God-men" that they claim to be, then it can have a detrimental affect. How much of an affect - How big of an affect?? Well, that's what this forum is all about ya'all.... let's here it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

May I suggest we try to steer this thread back to the original question put forth here?

I have learned that among those who grew up in the LCS many face social issues. My question is: what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?

Until my departure several years ago, I long had wondered why so few families survived the LC intact. My thinking always centered on the promises of being "God's best." If we really were what we were told, then we should be the most blessed people on earth, yet we also will be the ones most attacked by God's enemy. So I thought. Since I considered answers to prayer and the condition of one's family to be among the top indicators (and not wealth or worldly success) that one is blessed by God, I woefully had to admit that the enemy was far more successful than God's blessing. How could this be?

As I stepped away from the LC's to reevaluate my positions on a myriad of topics, (prompted by the pending "civil war" over publications,) I was forced to admit that zealousness, consecration to "Christ and the church," and oneness with the ministry did little to help my family or others. The line "how can you care for your house, while God's house lies waste," stirred such guilt within, and ... I had heard so many promises that "you care for God's house, and He will care for your house." It never seemed to work out that way, however. Looking back over my history, the blessing seemed to come from obedience to the Lord, and cooperation with His Spirit, and not from long hours of service.

Shepherding saints and raising children have many similarities. When "the program" comes first in your life, along with allegiances to headquarters, people tend to know it. They're not stupid. I was, however. Somewhere along the line, the "family of God" got replaced by the "army of God." Families suffered. Mine did. Others did also. The ones who did survive in the churchlife had a healthy sequence of Christ first, then family, then church. Those, like me, who put "Christ and the church" first, and family last, often ended up with neither Christ nor family. Christ and the family both being replaced with endless service in the church trying to be a faithful brother.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When "the program" comes first in your life, along with allegiances to headquarters, people tend to know it.

... Somewhere along the line, the "family of God" got replaced by the "army of God."

Those ... who put "Christ and the church" first, and family last, often ended up with neither Christ nor family. Christ and the family both being replaced with endless service in the church

The ministry was initially seen as a vehicle to serve God by serving His people. Eventually the ministry became a stand-in for God. Eventually abiding in Christ got replaced by being one with the ministry. But in actuality the ministry is represented by sinners like myself. Only God is perfect. So to protect the ministry-centric approach we then create an "image" that must be upheld at all cost, even at the cost of truth, life, spiritual connectedness, relationships, our consciences, our families, etc.

Regarding djohnson's initial observations of those growing up in the LC, and its unhealthy focus on the ministry, eventually facing what he called "social issues"; I believe I made the observation, and will repeat it because it bears repeating, that the young ones I observed leaving the family umbrella do not go to christianity. They see the hypocrisy in the "program", as Ohio put it, but have imbibed on a steady diet of invective against what is termed "fallen christianity", and so when they depart the compulsive religious environment in the parent's house they simply drift (or run) into the world. They are raised in the "LC or nothing" mindset, and when they reject the controlling environment of the LC system, they have no spiritual path readily available. When pressed into a corner they will acknowledge Christ, as they genuinely received Him as Lord, but today they have no way to go on. Spiritually they are shipwrecked. I have seen this happen so often that I would make this generalization.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

...the young ones I observed leaving the family umbrella do not go to christianity. They see the hypocrisy in the "program", as Ohio put it, but have imbibed on a steady diet of invective against what is termed "fallen christianity", and so when they depart the compulsive religious environment in the parent's house they simply drift (or run) into the world. They are raised in the "LC or nothing" mindset, and when they reject the controlling environment of the LC system, they have no spiritual path readily available. When pressed into a corner they will acknowledge Christ, as they genuinely received Him as Lord, but today they have no way to go on. Spiritually they are shipwrecked. I have seen this happen so often that I would make this generalization.

This not only happens to church kids, but others who also leave the LC. It happened to me. Thanks God he gently drew me back to himself, but it took years, more than I like to think about. Shipwrecked was exactly what I was.

Remaining LCers I'm sure take this condition in former members as evidence of God's displeasure with them, that they are indeed rebelling. But the fact is their consciences have been falsely educated by a systems of lies and half-truths that put the sufferer in an almost unresolvable spiritual dilemma.

Whatever devil is assigned to those former members has a cushy job. He just sits back and keeps pushing the "you-rebel-you-left-the-local-church" button, which is like money in the bank for him. It truly takes the power of the Holy Spirit to break that cycle. Psychology won't do it. Doctrine won't do it. God has to show you that the values of the local church (so-called "oneness," hierarchical authority, ministers of the ages, flows, "submission," mindlessness, etc) are not his values. He has to show you his true heart.

To tie this into the theme of this thread, yes, the LCS absolutely does lead to this condition of shipwreck.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Whatever devil is assigned to those former members has a cushy job. He just sits back and keeps pushing the "you-rebel-you-left-the-local-church" button, which is like money in the bank for him. It truly takes the power of the Holy Spirit to break that cycle.

Funny thing is, he can push that same button (or at least one very close on the same panel) even when you DIDN'T leave but got evicted! I heard that same whisper in my ear for YEARS and his argument was that I didn't fight hard enough to stay...

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Regarding djohnson's initial observations of those growing up in the LC, and its unhealthy focus on the ministry, eventually facing what he called "social issues"; I believe I made the observation, and will repeat it because it bears repeating, that the young ones I observed leaving the family umbrella do not go to christianity. They see the hypocrisy in the "program", as Ohio put it, but have imbibed on a steady diet of invective against what is termed "fallen christianity", and so when they depart the compulsive religious environment in the parent's house they simply drift (or run) into the world. They are raised in the "LC or nothing" mindset, and when they reject the controlling environment of the LC system, they have no spiritual path readily available.

Aron, I read what you're saying, but ultimately isn't it a matter of will? Sure being brought up in the local churches, I heard all about "fallen christianity". It was likened to "prosperity theology". What I discovered was completely different. There are Christians not meeting with the local churches burning for Christ. If a brother or sister wants to press on, they need to seek fellowship outside the lc's if they're not willing to endure "hypocrisy in the program".
To say the "LC or nothing", isn't that saying that we were baptized in the LC and not in Christ? It was Christ who was crucified for us and whose name we were baptized in. Christians should not be rejected because they're not part of a specific fellowship.

Terry

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Shepherding saints and raising children have many similarities. When "the program" comes first in your life, along with allegiances to headquarters, people tend to know it. They're not stupid. I was, however. Somewhere along the line, the "family of God" got replaced by the "army of God." Families suffered. Mine did. Others did also. The ones who did survive in the churchlife had a healthy sequence of Christ first, then family, then church. Those, like me, who put "Christ and the church" first, and family last, often ended up with neither Christ nor family. Christ and the family both being replaced with endless service in the church trying to be a faithful brother.

Well written, Ohio. This says it all. I pray the Lord heals your family. He is able and he wants to.

[countmeworthy]

Loved your post Ohio! Thank You for sharing your insights. They were right on 'the money'.

[QUOTE=Ohio;5379]

My thinking always centered on the promises of being "God's best."

If we really were what we were told, then we should be the most blessed people on earth, yet we also will be the ones most attacked by God's enemy.

I think what happened and still happens in Christendom including the LSM/LC..is they focus on the 'fear of the attack by God's enemy'..almost as if it's greater than God's blessings which is not.

One of my favorite accounts of the NT is when Paul & Silas are bound up in the prison dungeon. Talk about being attacked and persecuted!! Here they were bloodied, stinky, their bodies probably filled with knats and flies and who knows what else..and they're chained up against a wall.

Now THAT'S an attack of the enemy for sure!!! Yet instead of murmurring and grumbling in their pain..(& they might have initially until they came to their senses..) they began to PRAISE GOD..by Honoring Him through their singing and Praises, the Angel of the Lord released them from the enemy's hands.

I can testify, personally, I am who I am today because of my Praises unto the Lord...while I was suffering. Yes, I did and do ask for Help but once I have made my request be made known unto God, I give Him Thanks for listening to the Words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart.

It is a work of progress. It took time to build up my Faith to where it is today but I haven't attained the goal, the prize yet. I'm still running the race with endurance.

I woefully had to admit that the enemy was far more successful than God's blessing. How could this be?

Too much focus on the power of the attacks...but also wrong teachings that affected us.

As I stepped away from the LC's to reevaluate my positions on a myriad of topics, was forced to admit that zealousness, consecration to "Christ and the church," and oneness with the ministry did little to help my family or others.

Yep...wrong teachings.

Looking back over my history, the blessing seemed to come from obedience to the Lord, and cooperation with His Spirit, and not from long hours of service.

Now you got it brother Ohio !!! Now what a blessing to come to that conclusion! I bet that's a burden and load off your shoulders!

Somewhere along the line, the "family of God" got replaced by the "army of God." Families suffered. Mine did. Others did also. The ones who did survive in the churchlife had a healthy sequence of Christ first, then family, then church. Those, like me, who put "Christ and the church" first, and family last, often ended up with neither Christ nor family

.

You know, I've never married...although there have a couple of opporturnities but the Spirit in me gave me no peace no matter how in love I was!!

I am very content..very happy, very blessed and with that I have a sense of enormous and joyous responsibility to pray for the Body of Christ. People who are married with children have responsiblities we single people do not.

I hope the people who are single will pray for the married people..especially those with children. May God continue to strengthen you Ohio..you and your family..bless you with the Peace of God beyond understanding..supply all of your financial needs..grant you the desires of your heart as you delight In HIM...shield you and Protect you in Christ Jesus.

[FoundHim]

Originally Posted by Igzy

This not only happens to church kids, but others who also leave the LC. It happened to me. Thanks God he gently drew me back to himself, but it took years, more than I like to think about. Shipwrecked was exactly what I was.
Remaining LCers I'm sure take this condition in former members as evidence of God's displeasure with them, that they are indeed rebelling. But the fact is their consciences have been falsely educated by a systems of lies and half-truths that put the sufferer in an almost unresolvable spiritual dilemma.
Whatever devil is assigned to those former members has a cushy job. He just sits back and keeps pushing the "you-rebel-you-left-the-local-church" button, which is like money in the bank for him. It truly takes the power of the Holy Spirit to break that cycle. Psychology won't do it. Doctrine won't do it. God has to show you that the values of the local church (so-called "oneness," hierarchical authority, ministers of the ages, flows, "submission," mindlessness, etc) are not his values. He has to show you his true heart.
To tie this into the theme of this thread, yes, the LCS absolutely does lead to this condition of shipwreck.

Not sure where this is going to fit in ( both literally and figuratively). I am not used to the format of this forum yet, and because of many reasons, I just can't get that involved, but to Igzy's reply to Ohio regarding the shipwreck of saints I would like to add a word.

My daughter's middle name is "shipwreck". As you think of that you can imagine a boat out to sea, lost, no direction, just floating aimlessly among the waves.

My heart grieves daily as I see her left in the shadow of all the teachings, laws, twisted teachings, condemnation and just plain wrong thinking etc. she got in being raised in the LC. Her Dad, my husband was an elder. A good one. But we live now with the result of her complete confusion and failing trust in the God of Heaven. My husband cannot help her, for he is still stuck in the mud of the whole thing.

After "leaving" the LC ( she never really has "left") she is confused, discouraged, goes through extreme bouts with depression. I say she never left because in her young mind, she still thinks it is "God's best" but because of all her failures, unable to keep up, and anger, she attends no meetings. She cannot attend other Christian gatherings as well. She has actually lost her heart to even do so. She is caught up in the "good" world - no drugs or terrible sins, but she has nonetheless lost her way.

She recently told us "I have no place to go. I don't belong in the church. I don't belong anywhere". This was like a knife in my being, for I left many years ago and have seen the terrible damage done to her at the Full Time Training. She has never been the same. How many can relate to this?

Because of Satan's lies my husband cannot bring himself to admit the failures in the LC. How can he help my daughter if he himself is still wrapped in the "Vision".

Your words Igzy promted my writing for you said something to the effect that God wants to heal our families. I pray that He wants to heal ours. I am weary in this battle, and for all of the hurt ones out there, shipwreck or having the blessing of moving on - may He bring us all into the Peace that is only from Him.

"Is anything too hard for the Lord?". Frankly I am beginning to wonder. Forgive my unbelief Lord.

[Overflow]

Found Him - I'm so glad that your daughter has a mom like you and your husband has you as his wife. Your heart gives me hope! My mom unfortunately is an exact replica of the 'Stepford Wife' and has totally checked out on being an individual. I think she still buys into the LC teaching that she's under the authority of her husband in relationship with Jesus..so she just lets him treat her and the family in whatever way suits himself best and believes that by her being submissive to her husband, she doesn't have any responsibility! SO WRONG! It also doesn't work to dispute the thinking of a VIP like my dad so perhaps that part of the reason she checked out. I'll be praying for your family! Your words brought tears to my eyes...the bondage is awful.

Hope - So what are some of the apologies that you were able to offer your children about the whole LC mess and the effect it had on your family? It's crazy that so much happened in Dallas while you were an elder (with my dad who was also an elder) and yet you had NO idea was going on, isn't it!!! Crazy!

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Found Him I greatly appreciate your stark honesty and I am certain the Lord will honor it.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Overflow

Hope - So what are some of the apologies that you were able to offer your children about the whole LC mess and the effect it had on your family? It's crazy that so much happened in Dallas while you were an elder (with my dad who was also an elder) and yet you had NO idea was going on, isn't it!!! Crazy!

Dear Overflow,

I believe that you meant no ill will by what you wrote and addressed to me. But I did find it to be very offensive. Therefore I must address it. I mean no ill will toward you and hope a frank answer can clear the air.

Perhaps you have overstepped your bounds. Why do you assume I need to offer apologies to my children? Maybe our family's experience was not a "whole LC mess" with bad effects. My children have never blamed my wife or I for our time in the church in Dallas which is their only local church experience. I have caught heat for being too strict on homework getting done. My teenage sons did not appreciate our trip to the Smithsonian in DC. They claimed it was just something Sheryl and I wanted to do. These were the type of issues we had.

We all live within 15 minutes of each other. There is mutual respect and I am sure you would be touching a hornet's nest if you threw up statements accusing their parents. One son is still single. He has declared that there are just no women out there to compare with his mom and sister. Not true, but it is kind of flattering is a sort of obtuse way.

I cannot imagine us being any closer. Sometimes it is too close! They drop in all the time at any time. We love it but it does require that Sheryl and I stay flexible with our plans. We love them all unconditionally and they seemed to feel the same way towards us.

When we were first leaving the local church movement and I was very poor and starting a new business, I had a great opportunity with my business but not the funds to take advantage of it. My second son had just graduated from high school. He had worked a 30 hour a week job that year to save for college. In early June of that year we were having one of our frequent state of the family talks and I mentioned something about the opportunity. The next day he approached me and offered his college money. I declined saying what if I fail. He replied, dad you are the smartest person I know and I know you will succeed. Wow. Was I ever motivated!!! A word from a child can either crush or exhilarate a parent. I knew I had to succeed. That summer I was able to put the program in place and make enough profit to give him the money back on the day he was scheduled to leave for college. What a bond we have from that experience.

Don Rutledge

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Hope

Dear Overflow,.....It is a straw man argument "that so much happened in Dallas ... and yet you had NO idea was going on." There are two alleged instances that have been listed on the forum, not "so much." That two teenage girls had a very unpleasant experience with some older person or persons is not the question. The big 16 elder meeting over two teenagers kissing just could not have occurred in the way it was described. I would have known about it. Nothing comparable ever occurred. The second, an effort to back up the first, of 6-7 elders confronting a teenager did not happen. The actual facts of there being a confrontation was not in my knowledge nor any outcomes. But parents or some family friend or a church person being involved in a teenage love issue is not something unique to the local church, but the two big brew ha ha described are something I would have known about. What is crazy to me is the gullible acceptance of any negative tale. If I am going to participate on the forum, I cannot just let anything go that is so utterly dubious. "I was hurt" is no excuse for playing loose and free with slanderous reports. It is cruel to make such sweeping generalizations which defame many innocent persons...Don Rutledge

What the bazooka! I am mad at the denial and lies. At the same time I don't even think this is worthy of response it is so absurd. I'd like to get my mom and dad on here as witness, but I won't waste their time with the nonsense. Some people also deny the holocaust ever happened. Absolutely absurd.

Proverbs 17:1
Better a dry crust with peace and quiet than a house full of feasting, with strife.
Proverbs 18:6
A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.
Proverbs 20:3
It is to a man's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel.
Proverbs 22:10
Drive out the mocker, and out goes strife; quarrels and insults are ended.
Proverbs 26:21
As charcoal to embers and as wood to fire, so is a quarrelsome man for kindling strife.
Proverbs 30:33
For as churning the milk produces butter, and as twisting the nose produces blood, so stirring up anger produces strife.

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Hope

Dear Overflow,
...I do regret needing to speak so plainly and bluntly. Thank you in advance for your understanding.

Don Rutledge

Hope, do you think you own this forum? I’ve been following your posts and it seems that if anyone disagrees with you, you try to shame them down and out. When they stop posting, you talk about them being biased. Then you pop out every so often (like you just did) and make another claim that there was something not right about what they posted or that it was outright false! Give me a break.

You have publically accused me of lying (or stretching the facts, perhaps with some intentional motive or as a ploy by others). I have no hidden agenda. I have moved on from the LC and happily so. I try to keep a balance in my life, but I am honest when looking at what happened to me and others. I never said it was all bad. I have some very endearing memories of people I lived with (7 different families in all and many more sisters). Someday, maybe I will share some of these very funny stories. However, I am not going to water down the ugly stuff that happened to me and caused long term issues.

[bookworm]

Originally Posted by Hope

Dear Overflow,

It is a straw man argument "that so much happened in Dallas ... and yet you had NO idea was going on." There are two alleged instances that have been listed on the forum, not "so much." That two teenage girls had a very unpleasant experience with some older person or persons is not the question. The big 16 elder meeting over two teenagers kissing just could not have occurred in the way it was described. I would have known about it. Nothing comparable ever occurred. The second, an effort to back up the first, of 6-7 elders confronting a teenager did not happen. The actual facts of there being a confrontation was not in my knowledge nor any outcomes. But parents or some family friend or a church person being involved in a teenage love issue is not something unique to the local church, but the two big brew ha ha described are something I would have known about. What is crazy to me is the gullible acceptance of any negative tale. If I am going to participate on the forum, I cannot just let anything go that is so utterly dubious. "I was hurt" is no excuse for playing loose and free with slanderous reports. It is cruel to make such sweeping generalizations which defame many innocent persons.

I do regret needing to speak so plainly and bluntly. Thank you in advance for your understanding.

Don Rutledge

Hope,

I have not participated in this forum in quite a while and upon returning to read lately agree with blessD at what denial is apparent.

You need to concede that you definitely were sitting in the "catbird seat" in your experience in the LC, no matter what locality you happened to be perching. That said, it is appears that you have no ability for empathy with those who were not in such a situation. And as such you also feel no need for apologies to your family members for your LC experience. When you had your fill, you all were able to "fly away" and find another perch that better pleased you. That surely is the Lord's mercy on you and your family. You have certain gifts that have benefitted you and your family and it is nice to know that all of you continue to be content. Am sure all forum members are happy for you.
However, it would behoove you to exercise a little compassion and realize only a very slight percentage of people in the LC--elders included-- had such a privileged perspective and experience.
Accusing others of downright lying is not very becoming to you and really is out of character for someone so gifted as you.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Someone is lying. But what do women know anyway huh? They are only sisters and Hope after all was an elder. An elder wouldn't lie would they? I just can't imagine it. The leadership of the LCS is so pure and pristine. So incorruptible. Their track record is one of impeccable Christians ethics. :rollingeyes2:

[aron]

Originally Posted by FoundHim

My daughter's middle name is "shipwreck". As you think of that you can imagine a boat out to sea, lost, no direction, just floating aimlessly among the waves.

My heart grieves daily as I see her left in the shadow of all the teachings, laws, twisted teachings, condemnation and just plain wrong thinking etc. she got in being raised in the LC. Her Dad, my husband was an elder. A good one. But we live now with the result of her complete confusion and failing trust in the God of Heaven. My husband cannot help her, for he is still stuck in the mud of the whole thing.

After "leaving" the LC ( she never really has "left") she is confused, discouraged, goes through extreme bouts with depression. I say she never left because in her young mind, she still thinks it is "God's best" but because of all her failures, unable to keep up, and anger, she attends no meetings. She cannot attend other Christian gatherings as well. She has actually lost her heart to even do so. She is caught up in the "good" world - no drugs or terrible sins, but she has nonetheless lost her way.

She recently told us "I have no place to go. I don't belong in the church. I don't belong anywhere". This was like a knife in my being, for I left many years ago and have seen the terrible damage done to her at the Full Time Training. She has never been the same. How many can relate to this?

This is a good example of what happens to people in this group. They leave, but can never truly get free. They are so primed to reject "everything else" that when the supposedly glorious church life doesn't pan out, they have nothing left. I wonder what the suicide rate is of second- and third-generation children. Anecdotally it looks bad, but I'm not sure how it compares to other high-demand groups. But my observation spanning over several decades (the last two, I admit from afar) are that the children who leave the LC don't have meaningful Christian pursuit. They were programmed from the beginning that there was nothing else available.

"Condemnation and just plain wrong thinking..." whatever label you put on this group, if any, you can't deny the effect on its recipients.

On other posts, they showed both Witness Lee and Watchman Nee having a form of "perfecting training", where the attendees would be asked to speak, then would be "corrected" by WN and WL. Sometimes this was done with some affirmation, sometimes even with love (perhaps), but sometimes it was a good old fashioned Asian lose-face beatdown. I saw Witness Lee with Titus Chu. At the end, TC said, "I am ashamed...". This is human culture, with the veneer of spirituality. But it's not Christian.

I would ask this (yet again...): if WN and WL could question and critique others, why wasn't this reciprocated? Why couldn't anyone ask them the obvious questions? If women could take leading roles in WN's Little Flock, with Dora Yu, Peace Wang, Ruth Lee, then why couldn't women function similarly in Witness Lee's Local Church?

How could there be several distinct centers of the universe?

How could some Imprecatory Psalms be Christ defeating Satan, others being fallen human concepts? How the inconsistency of interpretation?

How could the Intensified Holy Spirit be taught as God's economy by Paul, if the Book of Revelation hadn't been written yet? And if Paul wasn't teaching Intensification, how could WL say that it was part of his God's economy? Furthermore, if Moses saw Seven Lamps in Exodus 25, why say that their appearance in Revelation 1:12 symbolized ecclesiastical darkness and degradation?

There are probably dozens of other similar questions that could be asked. Once you start to look critically, they become obvious. But we were conditioned not to think, not to ask questions. But Witness Lee could ask questions.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by aron

I would ask this (yet again...): if WN and WL could question and critique others, why wasn't this reciprocated? Why couldn't anyone ask them the obvious questions?

There are probably dozens of other similar questions that could be asked. Once you start to look critically, they become obvious. But we were conditioned not to think, not to ask questions. But Witness Lee could ask questions.

Aron, a recently digested video of Derek Prince helped me to better understand why many leaders in the LC were off limits to critique.

<-@22min <-@47min

Link to that video on YouTube:
Take Heed That You Are Not Deceived | Derek Prince
https://youtu.be/nhb_xuitMiw

P.S.

[OBW]

P.S.

Nee, Lee, and the LC leadership would disagree because their first MOTA, Nee, declared that only God can lay any charge against a so-called deputy authority. And all of the leadership is some level of deputy authority under that rubric.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Nee, Lee, and the LC leadership would disagree because their first MOTA, Nee, declared that only God can lay any charge against a so-called deputy authority.

I watched some of the Derek Prince video where he shows a safeguard against deception. DP quotes Paul, saying that some can prophesy & some can judge, or discern. In the LC, only one could judge, and no one judged him. This seems to be a play by WN in his version of Spiritual Man that the spiritual man (aka today's spiritual giants) can discern others, but nobody can discern them.

Ok... but still, why did WN use J P-L for his book "Spiritual Man" if women can't teach? Was Madame Guyon a Seer or Prophet, & if so why not women today? And if not, why base your spiritual torrents on hers?

Likewise WL with the three circles diagram of the tripartite man and God's economy. If this revelation came from Mary McDonough and her booklet "God's Plan of Salvation", which (ahem) is still being sold today by LSM, then why can't women teach us today? If they could teach 100 years ago, why not now?

And notice that I haven't brought up the sons of WL and their predations on the flock. I'm just using information that was readily available and was actively and continually promoted as God's speaking. And I'm saying, why would God speak something that makes no sense? And that's what DP is saying as well, that in the divinely ordained multiplicity of voices (speaking prophets) is a safeguard against deception.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

On other posts, they showed both Witness Lee and Watchman Nee having a form of "perfecting training", where the attendees would be asked to speak, then would be "corrected" by WN and WL. Sometimes this was done with some affirmation, sometimes even with love (perhaps), but sometimes it was a good old fashioned Asian lose-face beatdown. I saw Witness Lee with Titus Chu. At the end, TC said, "I am ashamed...". This is human culture, with the veneer of spirituality. But it's not Christian.

In the official LSM historical “Book of Recovery,” we were told that it was Sister M.E. Barber who “recovered” the lost practice of “perfecting the brothers” by rebuking and public shaming WN. This was absolutely part of our LC heritage. Was not MEB’s rebukes what perfected WN? I heard this for years. And if WN was not “perfected,” how could he Recover the LC’s? How could he perfect WL?

What can justify WL’s practice of publicly shaming other workers like TC? Was it not MEBarber’s monumental recovery work to “perfect the brothers?” If WL could behave this way, are not TC, BP, RK, and others also justified doing so? And let’s keep going. How can my wife (or yours) possibly be “perfected” unless I engage in this same practice? And let’s not forget her role in shaming the children. Is this not our LC heritage? And if truly “recovered,” is this not our God-given right and responsibility to “perfect” everyone else we meet by shaming them. Am I missing something here?

Now our beloved friend aron says this is a “good old fashioned Asian lose-face beatdown.” He said this is “not Christian.” Is this a “recovered” practice or some fallen cultural political power play? This is important! I need to know! The answer strikes at the root of the so-called Recovery.

[Nell]

The early on training format had Lee "testing" the trainees the morning after the night message. I don't know how it works now. The trainees were called up to the speaker platform by church, and expected to answer his questions about what he shared the night before. There was competition to be closest to the front to be "seen" by Lee.

One church was called up and Lee picked on a young sister. She froze. She was terrified. Lee kept badgering her to speak. She couldn't. Even if she did know the answer he was looking for, she was too scared to speak. She was visibly shaking. Lee finally moved on to someone else.

When this young sister returned home after being "tested" by Lee, she was never the same. Before being "tested" by Lee, she had a smile on her face, bright eyes, happy and a loving mother to her child. After Lee's public beat down, she was withdrawn and quiet. Her smile was gone. Hollow eyes. She rarely testified in the meetings anymore.

Later, in her locality, after a repeat of the classic message about how a wife and children were a "burden" to the brother/husband's "spritual life" (not sure which spirit he was talking about), this same sister, after being brutalized by Lee...later her husband stood in the meeting and confirmed what a burden his wife and children were to him and his own personal walk.

His wife was not in that meeting to hear his disparaging words about her. She was in the hospital having just given birth to his third child. So Lee taught him well. I lost all respect for this clueless "brother".

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

One church was called up and Lee picked on a young sister. She froze. She was terrified. Lee kept badgering her to speak. She couldn't. Even if she did know the answer he was looking for, she was too scared to speak. She was visibly shaking. Lee finally moved on to someone else.

When this young sister returned home after being "tested" by Lee, she was never the same. Before being "tested" by Lee, she had a smile on her face, bright eyes, happy and a loving mother to her child. After Lee's public beat down, she was withdrawn and quiet. Her smile was gone. Hollow eyes. She rarely testified in the meetings anymore.
Nell

Where were the courageous elders, friends, husband, or family to protect and defend her? They were all hiding in fear.

Never once did I ever see anyone coming to the defense of these “shamed” ones, whether brothers or sisters. Myself included, we were all cowards. We allowed LC bullies to shame, intimidate, and destroy, in some cases. I have seen grown men beat down and take months or years to recover.

In practice, this is really nothing more than the “perfecting” that many have received when tortured in the inquisitions. Of course, they received some “perfection.” Our Lord is so faithful. His grace is sufficient.

But LC bullying is “mostly” not for perfecting. It’s all about power. Fear-based power. And only the man at the top, the MOTA, is immune from this. So it’s no wonder why so many fight to be on top.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by djohnson

I have learned that among those who grew up in the LCS many face social issues. Some that I am familiar with are: alcoholism, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, divorce, paying for sex i.e. engaging in services of prostitutes, infidelity, porn addiction.

My guess is that once the hypocrisy of the leaders became well known something "snapped" in a lot of the youth. A subculture that was restricting them thus became a culprit in their lustful pursuits. This dynamic coupled with the mainstream media bombardment gave license for their behavior.

My question is: what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?

I was perusing the older topics in the forum and noticed that this one had over 1.3 thousand posts and over 1 million views. I was curious about what was so interesting that our loyal viewers had checked in over 1,000,000 times.

I only scanned the beginning posts in the topic, but the main interest is the Witness Lee teaching on "if you take care of the church, the Lord will take care of your family."

Today, we are dealing with the fruit of this teaching as there is much happening with Ex Church Kids. Don Rutledge (Hope) has posted some amazing things about his personal resistance to the pressure to abandon his family in order kowtow to Witness Lee...back as far as 1984-85.

Who is Don Rutledge? In case you don't know, Don was an elder in the Church in Dallas, closely related to Benson Phillips, and regularly in meetings with Witness Lee. Don tells the story of walking out of a meeting with WLee in order to attend his son's baseball game.

Check it out! This is great LC history. Don left the Local Church and his position of leadership in the '80's. It's an excellent account of how we got where we are today regarding the "church kids".

I attended a young people's conference in Dallas once. At the end of the meeting, Don stood up to dismiss the young people and made the classic Don Rutledge-type announcement to all that youthful energy in the room "I don't care how you feel, you're tired..." Go home.

To go to the first post, click the blue right-arrow above next to djohnson's name in the quoted post.

Enjoy!
Nell