What a Lack of Increase Really Means for the LC

[Freedom]

I saw the following video a little while back (it was linked in Jo’s letter) where Minoru speaks about stagnant growth of the LC in the US:
https://youtu.be/tTihYDJxLmQ?t=4209

To summarize, he states that the LC started out with 30 members in Los Angeles and by 1975 has reached 4,500 members. He estimates there to have been around a 52% annual rate of growth during that period. Then he says that by 1985, the LC had reached 8,500 members in the US, representing 6% annual rate of growth. Then lastly he estimated the current membership in the US in 2018 to be 25,000 which he says represents a 3.7% annual rate of growth. Assuming the membership numbers are accurate, it does paint a pretty grim picture.

Obviously, numbers aren’t everything. Regarding the LC, however, the thing that is a bit interesting about their numbers is that it is easy to see how the initial growth likely played into the whole narrative about their group being the so-called Lord’s Recovery. I know for certain that they have pointed to that initial increase as a measure of their success. So if that is their standard, then by the same token, the subsequent decline and stagnancy should serve as a form of feedback for them. The types of questions that members should be asking themselves is that if their group is what they claim to be, then why isn’t there much to show for it? Why don’t they have very much impact in society at large? Why would the Lord limit himself in the U.S. to some fringe group that represents less than .0010% of the U.S. population? In other words, when the types of claims the LC makes for itself are viewed in the context of its current state, it makes those claims all the more absurd.

For the LC, this issue of stagnancy is one of few issues where they are willing to admit that there is something wrong. In the video, Minoru attributes the stagnancy to the so-called turmoils that took place as well as external opposition in the past. So it would seem that they both acknowledge the problem at hand and know why the problem occurred. However, if people like Minoru claim to know what is causing the problem, then it would make sense to ask why the problem is still occurring. If they know how to fix it, why haven't they. Let’s put it this way - the so-called turmoils led to massive membership losses over the years. It's easy to blame things on that, but do they ever talk about if there could have been alternative outcomes? In regard to the external opposition, the LC now has the full support of the CRI. So the question they really should be asking themselves is why public perception of the LC hasn't changed in spite of all the support they now have.

Aside from all the so-called turmoils, the LC seems to ignore a much more pressing problem. The problem I am referring to is just basic member retention. The LC likes to blame everything on the so-called turmoils or whatever, but that’s only a small part of the bigger issue. Most of the time when members leave it can either be an issue of 1) the LC didn’t meet their needs and they decide to move on, or 2) something happened and they decided that it was in their best interest to leave. The LC can't really do anything about people who don't feel like the LC is a fit for them, but there have been so many lost opportunities over the years where people leave because of things that leaders had the power to change for the better but didn't. Because the LC continues to insist that there are no valid reasons to leave, it compounds the problem by putting even the ex-members who never had any disdain for the LC in the position of having to assert their right to leave the group or sometimes having to go so far as to cut off contact in order to distance themselves. Each ex-member then becomes a potential PR liability for the LC. They don’t know who is and isn’t going to speak out or steer people away from the LC. But the way that the treat people who leave basically ensures that ex-members will have nothing good to say about the group.

When members do leave because of real problems, all too often, there was the opportunity for an alternative outcome. For example, the LC has admitted on many occasions that the church kid retention rate is really bad. Many church kids get subjected to control, manipulation or extreme legalism, and not surprisingly, many church kids leave as soon as they can. So many leave with a very distinct negative impression of the LC. If the LC can’t even make the effort to put a stop to that kind of stuff that causes people to leave, they’re never going to reverse the downward trend. It just isn’t going to happen. When there are reoccurring issues related to control, legalism, etc., that means there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Wishing it will go away isn’t going to make it go away.

[Trapped]

They are blinded. Minoru still talks to the leading brothers about showing up in a new city and "taking the city by storm!"

Whatever that means, and as if that has ever happened before.

Minoru thinks he is some kind of army general. He's really just leading a group of starved, gasping souls.

They have stepped inside the box of Witness Lee and gone to work building up walls all around themselves for decades, so all they see are their own four walls and they think that is their entire world.

They are deluded, plain and simple.

We are talking about a cult here. (We have threads on that c-word, so I don't want this thread derailed by talking about it).

One that has a hierarchical submission structure.
One that follows one man as the unique man who was God's mouthpiece.
One that threatens its members for reading contrary information.
One that severs all gifts within the body related to speaking or writing if it is anything different from what their "oracle" said.
One that keeps members unwittingly in constant fear of saying the wrong thing, talking to the wrong people, reading the wrong thing, or "touching death".
One that threatens God's wrath upon you if you leave them.

I've talked my face blue in the past to saints about problems and how to address them and the loss of church kids and the lack of love, but those things aren't important to them. I think more and more people within the lower ranks are starting to smell the dead rat, at least based on my conversations, which is just an anecdotal conclusion, of course. Their constant harping on authority is dis-affecting even the most all-in members. But they are The Recovery Which Is Constantly Under Attack and can never point the blame at themself. And for all their inward focus and inward navel gazing, they simply cannot look inward and see their problem is just themselves.

If you close the doors and lock down the facility so that everyone can only breath Witness Lee's air, you will get stagnation.

But they are so deceived they will speak information contrary to their own experience. New members leave because they realize the extreme focus on "the ministry" is abnormal, and then current members will say, "oh, they had a problem with, like, our only following one man or focus on the ministry or whatever" as if it's a ludicrous observation, even though that very thing is what they have literally lived themselves for years.

It's mind control. Thought control. Cognitive dissonance. Hypocrisy. Fear.

It's inherently un-recoverable without new information being fed in to the ranks to wake them up.

[Ohio]

The old adage about mushrooms -- "kept in the dark and fed manure" -- has obvious application when considering why LC members stay or leave. What worked for centuries with oppressive regimes -- lies and hiding the truth -- can no longer be counted on. The internet information age has changed all that.

My own story proves that. I survived the storms and chaos of the late 80's, with Philip Lee molesting sisters, WL covering for him and slandering all those who spoke up as leprous rebels, because I was a "mushroom." I was kept in the dark, and fed WL manure. Simple as that. I was not alone. Hundreds or thousands were with me in that "cave."

After the rays of sunshine, mostly via internet accounts, finally reach those cave-dwelling "mushrooms," each member responds differently. Ingalls wrote his fact-filled account and left, maintaining his joy in the Lord. Some find greener grass in poor poor Christianity. Some struggle even believing in God. Many 2nd gen saw this played out in the Midwest and shook their head in disgust: How can you talk oneness and then have this nasty divorce? What's wrong with worshiping the Lord with guitars and skits? How can you condemn Christianity when you are worse? Etc.

The problem with the Recovery lies primarily with its deceptive leadership. They talk love, but spew hatred. They talk liberty, but enslave its members. They talk "local," but weild controlling headquarters. The hypocrisies and the disconnects just abound systemically throughout the Recovery. The decades' worth accumulation is now far too much to hide.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The old adage about mushrooms -- "kept in the dark and fed manure" -- has obvious application when considering why LC members stay or leave. What worked for centuries with oppressive regimes -- lies and hiding the truth -- can no longer be counted on. The internet information age has changed all that.

My own story proves that. I survived the storms and chaos of the late 80's, with Philip Lee molesting sisters, WL covering for him and slandering all those who spoke up as leprous rebels, because I was a "mushroom." I was kept in the dark, and fed WL manure. Simple as that. I was not alone. Hundreds or thousands were with me in that "cave."

After the rays of sunshine, mostly via internet accounts, finally reach those cave-dwelling "mushrooms," each member responds differently. Ingalls wrote his fact-filled account and left, maintaining his joy in the Lord. Some find greener grass in poor poor Christianity. Some struggle even believing in God. Many 2nd gen saw this played out in the Midwest and shook their head in disgust: How can you talk oneness and then have this nasty divorce? What's wrong with worshiping the Lord with guitars and skits? How can you condemn Christianity when you are worse? Etc.

The problem with the Recovery lies primarily with its deceptive leadership. They talk love, but spew hatred. They talk liberty, but enslave its members. They talk "local," but weild controlling headquarters. The hypocrisies and the disconnects just abound systemically throughout the Recovery. The decades' worth accumulation is now far too much to hide.

Interestingly enough, these so-called fellowship sessions seem to be targeted at the demographic of FTTA trainees, graduates, "young working saints", etc. Those who probably don't know so much about what went on in the past. And maybe longtime members don't know all the details either, but they at least might have some skepticism or indifference to these calls for increase.

I have heard stories from people who are still in the LC about the "new way" and funny enough they basically indicated in a covert way that it was all just a bunch of hype. Things like going door to door baptizing people and then never hearing from the person again. In essence, when people have gone through decades of that kind of stuff, they either become indifferent to it or they stick around because they derive some kind of value from the environment, friendships, or sitting through the same old recycled 2-3 hour messages time and time again.

People like Minoru must realize what is going on. But they also have a lot to hide, all the dirty stuff that they can't admit has happened. They just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Interestingly enough, these so-called fellowship sessions seem to be targeted at the demographic of FTTA trainees, graduates, "young working saints", etc. Those who probably don't know so much about what went on in the past. And maybe longtime members don't know all the details either, but they at least might have some skepticism or indifference to these calls for increase.

I have heard stories from people who are still in the LC about the "new way" and funny enough they basically indicated in a covert way that it was all just a bunch of hype. Things like going door to door baptizing people and then never hearing from the person again. In essence, when people have gone through decades of that kind of stuff, they either become indifferent to it or they stick around because they derive some kind of value from the environment, friendships, or sitting through the same old recycled 2-3 hour messages time and time again.

People like Minoru must realize what is going on. But they also have a lot to hide, all the dirty stuff that they can't admit has happened. They just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper.

I see people every day in the news who believe lies with apparently all of their heart. Their entire belief system about many subjects has no foundation in any actual facts, but that doesn't bother them a bit. They dutifully believe what they are told. They get paid well to believe what they are told, and then repeat it to others. They have mental filters constantly in place to allow in new info to support those lies and filters to prevent any truth from interferring.

Same with those like Minoru who lived thru the New Way storm. WL told them what to believe, he provided them with the narrative. None of that was true, factual, or accurate. So what? The MOTA told them so! When he spoke, they were all ears. They allowed WL to interpret for them everything that happened. Once that story was cemented in their psyche, a stronghold was erected to fortify what WL told them. All contrary info must henceforth be silenced. The ostrich must bury its head in the sand, as Francis Ball told us.

We once had a poster here with the tag line, "a man hears what he wants, and discards the rest." Sounds odd, but it is true. Perhaps much of it is a survival mechanism because the truth can be quite scary at times. It is just God's mercy that our own minds have cracked open occasionally to let some light and truth in. Some go their whole lives closed up. Christians can close up too.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I see people every day in the news who believe lies with apparently all of their heart. Their entire belief system about many subjects has no foundation in any actual facts, but that doesn't bother them a bit. They dutifully believe what they are told. They get paid well to believe what they are told, and then repeat it to others. They have mental filters constantly in place to allow in new info to support those lies and filters to prevent any truth from interferring.

Same with those like Minoru who lived thru the New Way storm. WL told them what to believe, he provided them with the narrative. None of that was true, factual, or accurate. So what? The MOTA told them so! When he spoke, they were all ears. They allowed WL to interpret for them everything that happened. Once that story was cemented in their psyche, a stronghold was erected to fortify what WL told them. All contrary info must henceforth be silenced. The ostrich must bury its head in the sand, as Francis Ball told us.

We once had a poster here with the tag line, "a man hears what he wants, and discards the rest." Sounds odd, but it is true. Perhaps much of it is a survival mechanism because the truth can be quite scary at times. It is just God's mercy that our own minds have cracked open occasionally to let some light and truth in. Some go their whole lives closed up. Christians can close up too.

I was always impressed by that line in the old S&G song (bolded above)! It's so true. And just because we know that (at least on some level) it doesn't mean we are able to protect ourselves very well from what is not true! We are all weak in the flesh and all prone to hypocrisy. Without a Savior we are all doomed to this, no matter how hard we try. As Jesus said, if it were possible even the elect would be deceived! (Matt 24:24)

I see it all the time in politics. Those who are conservative will swallow almost anything bad about the left, and visa versa. It's sad and frustrating to watch (OK, maybe a little amusing too). And if you point out one side's own hypocrisy to them, the retort often is, "Well maybe, but we're not as bad as those folks on the other side - not by a long shot!"

It's like a close brother, Tom, once told me. He conveyed an argument with another brother and it went like this: "The other brother said, 'Might you be deceived?' To which Tom replied, 'Well of course, that's the nature of deception! However, I don't think so . . .'" (I still get a smile when telling that one!)

So what's to do? Same answer - WE NEED THE SAVIOR! Look to Jesus (The Brass Serpent)!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The problem with the Recovery lies primarily with its deceptive leadership. They talk love, but spew hatred. They talk liberty, but enslave its members. They talk "local," but weild controlling headquarters. The hypocrisies and the disconnects just abound systemically throughout the Recovery. The decades' worth accumulation is now far too much to hide.

The problem with the deceptive leaders and the messages they promote influences the rank and file brothers/sisters meeting in the local churches. The animosity towards former elders is influenced. Ones who don't share that feeling may experience doubt. "How is it everyone is fine with this speaking, but I'm not?" It's apparent my thoughts and feelings aren't welcome here and decides to leave.
How different would it had been with a leadership that spoke grace and their actions exemplified grace? Maybe fewer people would have left, but there would have been other underlying factors leading to people leaving.
Mixed messages over immorality, making ministry publications focal point of local church fellowship, and simply racial/gender/age demographics will cause ones to leave in favor of a church that better suits their needs.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I've talked my face blue in the past to saints about problems and how to address them and the loss of church kids and the lack of love, but those things aren't important to them. I think more and more people within the lower ranks are starting to smell the dead rat, at least based on my conversations, which is just an anecdotal conclusion, of course. Their constant harping on authority is dis-affecting even the most all-in members. But they are The Recovery Which Is Constantly Under Attack and can never point the blame at themself. And for all their inward focus and inward navel gazing, they simply cannot look inward and see their problem is just themselves.

If you close the doors and lock down the facility so that everyone can only breath Witness Lee's air, you will get stagnation.

But they are so deceived they will speak information contrary to their own experience. New members leave because they realize the extreme focus on "the ministry" is abnormal, and then current members will say, "oh, they had a problem with, like, our only following one man or focus on the ministry or whatever" as if it's a ludicrous observation, even though that very thing is what they have literally lived themselves for years.

It's mind control. Thought control. Cognitive dissonance. Hypocrisy. Fear.

It's inherently un-recoverable without new information being fed in to the ranks to wake them up.

The LC finds itself in an increasingly hypocritical position. They will give messages lamenting over the lack of increase, then in other instances, they go back to giving the same old messages on authority and submission and making sure everyone knows that the LC is a “narrow way” with no room for personality, gifts, opinions, ministries, etc, etc.

A big eye-opener for me was when some local elders started making a big deal about getting an increase. As expected, the effort didn’t amount to anything in terms of an increase, but they sure did succeed in getting everyone to feel like a failure. One of the elders even went so far to say that if we were going to home meetings and not bringing “new ones” then we were wasting our time. I actually stopped attending the home meetings because of that (mostly in order to make a point about). By that time I didn’t take anything they said seriously.

So this actually brings me to the main reason that I started this thread. Let’s take for example the situation that I just described. It is a classic example of a hard-line LC elder who pushes something, and in doing so ends up driving people out of the LC. Don’t get me wrong, my intention here isn't to look back and wish that things had been different. And actually that kind of stuff ended up being a blessing in disguise in the sense that it served as a bit of an awakening. But when looking at the issue from the perspective of the LC members and the problem that they are trying to deal with, it’s not really that complicated of an issue. The problem is more apparent than they even realize.

What about instances like when an elder tells a young couple in college that they need to drop their relationship? Or what about when a college graduate gets chewed out for not wanting to go to the FTTA? What about when a serving one goes off on a young person for wearing a hat in the meeting? These are all things I actually saw happen in the LC, and in some case it literally amounted to some overly-zealous LC member who was trying to "follow the ministry" undoing months or even years of work in a matter of minutes. Can people in the LC truthfully say that they don’t take issue with this type of nonsense? Do they even care that that perhaps it undermines everything they work so hard for? In essence, it is a simple issue and even simple changes could likely go a long way. But they’re not really interested in that, and you have to wonder what world they are really living in. Their leaders like Minoru certainly aren’t living in the real world.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

One of the elders even went so far to say that if we were going to home meetings and not bringing “new ones” then we were wasting our time. I actually stopped attending the home meetings because of that (mostly in order to make a point about).

I brought it up previously of my experience. Intending to invite a young family I knew to a home meeting and being told "there's no room". Yet for another young family already "in the ministry", there is suddenly room. Sends the wrong message.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

I brought it up previously of my experience. Intending to invite a young family I knew to a home meeting and being told "there's no room". Yet for another young family already "in the ministry", there is suddenly room. Sends the wrong message.

In the LC, it always seemed like there was some kind of there was some kind of push, whether it be preaching the gospel, trying to get an increase, shepherding, recovering 'dominant' ones, etc, etc.

But then it seemed that when anyone tried to act on what was being spoken, all the sudden it got qualified in a much more specific way. Let's say someone brings a friend to the meeting and the person asks too many questions about LC practices. Then all the sudden it gets clarified that it's better to not bring people to meetings who might be a 'problem'.

Or lets say that after having been encouraged to do so, someone reaches out to people who haven't been meeting in a while. Then they get told that they should have brought the matter up for 'fellowship' first.

In so many of these cases, what they are exhorting members to do is not actually what they want, or at least is not something that the LC is capable of accommodating. Going back to Minoru's call for an increase, if such an increase were to take place in the LC on any measurable level, it would mean accommodating people from all walks of life, personalities, opinions, etc. It would mean being willing to go places where there isn't a college campus nearby. The LC just isn't willing to make these kinds of changes.

[TLFisher]

That's what makes LC's a ministry churches and not local churches. Those who share a vision for the ministry, it becomes a seamless transition. As to say "we love those who love the ministry".

Minoru Chen has been giving "rah rah" speeches like this decades now. Those who have known him for all these years are not the least surprised by his motivational stuff. After all, he's a multi-millionaire and has lots of time on his hands. Oh, Minoru is not Ronnie Chan loaded, but he's doing ok for himself with this 3.7 million seaside home in the exclusive area of Corona Del Mar. (apparently this is just an investment rental, he doesn't actually live there). Far as is known, Minoru actually lives in a slightly less opulent McMansion in Irvine, valued at about 2 million. (Still spiffy enough for that Saturday evening prophesizing meeting, I can assure you!)

Don't fool yourself my friends, all of the Blended Brothers are fully aware of the downward trend for about 25 years now. The vast majority of FTT grads are Asian imports (Chen kind of admitted such in his little talk). The Lord's Recovery is bleeding out 2nd generation white kids at a rate that will make them unrecognizable to all of us who came in the LC during the heyday of the late 60s - early 70s in about 10 years or so. Maybe sooner.

I fell off my chair laughing when Minoru waxed so eloquent about how the poor increase was due to "the first rebellion in the Recovery". Then of course it was that evil book "The Mind Benders" that stopped them in their tracks! Right. A book that sold, what? A few thousand copies slowed down God's One Move On Earth?

[Cal]

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Doggonit

Don't fool yourself my friends, all of the Blended Brothers are fully aware of the downward trend for about 25 years now. The vast majority of FTT grads are Asian imports (Chen kind of admitted such in his little talk). The Lord's Recovery is bleeding out 2nd generation white kids at a rate that will make them unrecognizable to all of us who came in the LC during the heyday of the late 60s - early 70s in about 10 years or so. Maybe sooner.

That's why there is a concerted push these days to mine the college campuses for the "typical American students" (i.e. white kids). I've heard through the extended LC grapevine that the locality having the most success gaining those kids does it by throwing away the LC cultural quirks and tossing aside the ministry and staying far away from Witness Lee. In other words.....they look a lot like "typical Christianity" in their events and meetings with new students. This of course cannot get out in a widespread way, and is seen as borderline "negative".....or else the gig would be up that Witness Lee and the ministry are The Great Big Turn Off of the 21st century to the "typical Americans" they want to replenish their ranks with.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

That's why there is a concerted push these days to mine the college campuses for the "typical American students" (i.e. white kids). I've heard through the extended LC grapevine that the locality having the most success gaining those kids does it by throwing away the LC cultural quirks and tossing aside the ministry and staying far away from Witness Lee. In other words.....they look a lot like "typical Christianity" in their events and meetings with new students. This of course cannot get out in a widespread way, and is seen as borderline "negative".....or else the gig would be up that Witness Lee and the ministry are The Great Big Turn Off of the 21st century to the "typical Americans" they want to replenish their ranks with.

A hallmark of cults is that they're okay with two personas, or faces - one that outsiders see, safe for initiates and novices, and then there's the "real" group with special in-group readings, terms, practices and relations. If you do well on the outside, and look like "good material", you'll get invited inside the privileged sanctum.

There's a term called Potemkin Village - meaning a false arrangement that's used to throw off inspecting outsiders, and alleviate their concerns. The Potemkin Village is full of well-stocked granaries, shelves are full, people are clean and smiling. Over the ridge and out of sight live the rest of the citizens, discouraged, sick, hungry and disheveled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village

In the Potemkin Village LC, you can do what you want. (Maybe... electrified guitars! -'gasp') But in the real LC they'll start mentioning "restrictions". That's when you know you're in - the screws are starting to turn. To attract you in they'll "fake it"; then they'll want to know if you can "take it" - and into the Wedding Feast you'll "make it"... if you think I'm silly read the Open Letter by the Casteels. That's how they go after "typical Americans" now: create a fake LC.

Originally Posted by Casteel Letter

We continued on in the church life. A team had been started in our locality close to the time of us moving there. We even bought a house that prioritized having a good layout for the saints and new ones over some of our own family’s needs. When we moved we were ready and eager to enter into the work of taking care of new ones from the campus. We soon learned that our locality was “taking the slow way” approach modeled after the church in Lubbock, TX and that the community saints were not to be involved in the new ones direct care. The slow way in our locality involved using the King James Version with the new ones rather than using the Recovery Version. It also involved slowly introducing carefully selected LSM excerpts from Witness Lee that left out many controversial matters and did not cite the source, leaving out Witness Lee’s name and the publisher, Living Stream Ministry. Witness Lee’s name and LSM would be introduced at a certain point once the new ones were “ready."

We pondered the fact that LSM endorses not properly citing works in the name of gaining new ones considering that LSM itself says, “Any quotation taken from LSM publications should be given a proper citation”

In our locality, only the full-timers and saints specifically handpicked were to have interaction with the new ones. The main way the local saints could be involved was making food for the new ones and dropping it off on the campus. Prayer was encouraged as the primary means to take part in God’s move. There were specific instructions included in the e-mails as to what words you could and couldn’t use with the new ones when you dropped off the food... Here’s an excerpt from one e-mail I received regarding our slow way approach:

“Based on the fellowship shared last Lord's day and since we are touching new contacts on campus that have not been to any church meetings and have had limited contact with any saints outside the Bible study, let us be exercised and sensitive if and when we interact with them. Certain practices and terminology have not been introduced openly to the group, but will be in time, either in the small groups or home meetings. For example, the opening prayer for the time is not filled with "amens", the students are not familiar with term "saints," "church life" or "locality" yet. We pray through our service during this time many will come into our homes and into the church life.”

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

In the Potemkin Village LC, you can do what you want. (Maybe... electrified guitars! -'gasp') But in the real LC they'll start mentioning "restrictions". That's when you know you're in - the screws are starting to turn. To attract you in they'll "fake it"; then they'll want to know if you can "take it" - and into the Wedding Feast you'll "make it"... if you think I'm silly read the Open Letter by the Casteels. That's how they go after "typical Americans" now: create a fake LC.

There's always the danger that some will think the Potemkin Village LC is preferable. In other words, they'll refuse the two-tiered approach, and want to make the whole LC acceptable! No restrictions! What!?!

Then the divisions will start - the "pure remnant" who want ''the original vision of our brother" versus those willing to adapt to the 21st century. Here's a quote from a spinoff of a high-demand pseudo-Christian group, after their Guru died.

Originally Posted by Eternal Church of God

Church of God, The Eternal is a remnant of the Worldwide Church of God still teaching the original doctrines first proclaimed by Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong.

We accept these doctrines as the divine revelation of Jesus Christ to His Church of the last days, given through the inspiration of a chosen servant; teachings that were blessed by God, producing an annual growth of 30% over four decades, with incredible blessings in the lives of those who practiced the same in faith.

What makes this remnant group truly different from the 300+ splinter groups of our parent organization? No one else believes what Mr. Armstrong originally taught about Truth—that it comes only by revelation to a chosen servant, and even that servant has no authority to change what Christ gave! Read it for yourself.

https://www.cogeternal.org/

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

In the Potemkin Village LC, you can do what you want. (Maybe... electrified guitars! -'gasp') But in the real LC they'll start mentioning "restrictions". That's when you know you're in - the screws are starting to turn. To attract you in they'll "fake it"; then they'll want to know if you can "take it" - and into the Wedding Feast you'll "make it"... if you think I'm silly read the Open Letter by the Casteels. That's how they go after "typical Americans" now: create a fake LC.

I find it surprising that these types of things are able to gain traction in the LC. It’s basically an admission of sorts that the more extreme aspects of the LC as well as WL/LSM related things are highly suspect when it comes to public perception of the LC.

What makes it particularly ironic, however, is that people have already tried sounding the alarm before about the extremities of the LC. Everything from questioning the way WL is viewed to the exclusive use of LSM materials. And people who dared to do so have been kicked out because of doing that.

But in this case it seems that they are going to at least allow it for now. Maybe because they are becoming more and more okay with having some sort of facade. Probably as long as the ‘real’ form of the LC still exists in the background they will be okay with it.

I think if this becomes more widespread it’s going to severely backfire on them. In that excerpt from the letter, notice how all the “community saints” were being set aside, almost as if they were viewed as nothing more than a liability. How long before more people start saying enough is enough.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I find it surprising that these types of things are able to gain traction in the LC. It’s basically an admission of sorts that the more extreme aspects of the LC as well as WL/LSM related things are highly suspect when it comes to public perception of the LC.

What makes it particularly ironic, however, is that people have already tried sounding the alarm before about the extremities of the LC. Everything from questioning the way WL is viewed to the exclusive use of LSM materials. And people who dared to do so have been kicked out because of doing that.

But in this case it seems that they are going to at least allow it for now. Maybe because they are becoming more and more okay with having some sort of facade. Probably as long as the ‘real’ form of the LC still exists in the background they will be okay with it.

I think if this becomes more widespread it’s going to severely backfire on them. In that excerpt from the letter, notice how all the “community saints” were being set aside, almost as if they were viewed as nothing more than a liability. How long before more people start saying enough is enough.

There is some push-pull in this regard. Some leading ones are like "we shouldn't be ashamed of who we are", "just be what we are", "don't hide our rich heritage". Note that they don't say "this practice is deceptive", but more of a "wear it loud and proud, we are the best".

Others more in the field recognize "being what we are" is problematic because of Google. Any college student these days trying to choose what club to join on campus is going to go immediately to the internet to see what others have to say. And here is where the blame-shift comes in. In their minds, the problem with this isn't that people might find out about what the LC is. The problem is that people might find out about what people say about what the LC is. In other words, "because of the books and the libel and the cult accusations and the lawsuits" they need to hide who they are. They don't say "we need to hide who we are because we have these strange, unchristian, aberrant teachings and practices." The blame is on others who have called these things out in the past. Hence, no avenue for change.

As per usual, they won't even recognize it as a facade. They just come up with a divine and mystical term "the slow way" to legitimize the deceptive practice, and continue on in blindness. And it's shocking how quickly new students who are sophomores/junior/seniors come on board with joining in the deception. The "better than them" elitist attitude comes very quickly. They also quickly learn themselves to hide the name and emphasis of Witness Lee from new freshmen they are contacting. It's sobering to have seen it.

Community saints are definitely a means to an end. They are just used and discarded. Their function in the body is to focus on the students, who are the 'actually important' members. The sad thing is, the students they drool over will just become the disaffected members beginning about 8 years later. The students are brought in under such hyper-focus on them that there's a decent let down when they are then tossed aside after they graduate from their special status.

You can speak and speak and speak about the needs in the church and some very simple ways to help, but literally nothing will ever change.

[Nell]

An inquiry into the lack of increase in ANY assembly of God's people should begin here:
Matt. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

And there's this:
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

A lack of increase should cause those "in charge" to take a look at the fruit of their ways. A lack of increase should cause those who practice and preach authority, authority, authority to take a look at the fruit of their overbearing authority...the fruit of their brand of "authority".

Historically, those "in charge" have a proclivity to look at only what they believe to be their "good fruit" and deny or dismiss or blame the pain and suffering of their congregants on the congregants themselves. In other words, they have a "shoot the messenger" mentality---yet they can't figure out why there is a "lack of increase?"

If you really want to know why there is a "lack of increase", listen to your critics. They know. They've been telling you for years. If you had listened to those the Lord sent your way over the last 50 years, you might not be here today scratching your heads, wondering "what's going on?"

This brings us to a somber warning: Beware of false prophets.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

And again:
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

The lack of increase may be a form of cutting down and casting away of the tree.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

I love these 2 verses! The people recognized his authority, not because he incessantly hammered them with it, but because they were astonished at his teachings and they recognized the difference in what Jesus said and what the "blended scribes" said.

Read all of Matthew 7. It's amazing.

Nell.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Nell

If you really want to know why there is a "lack of increase", listen to your critics. They know. They've been telling you for years. If you had listened to those the Lord sent your way over the last 50 years, you might not be here today scratching your heads, wondering "what's going on?"

The LC really fails when it comes to listening to the various forms of feedback that they have available. Even in the video, Minoru admits the problem, but he wastes no time in misattributing it to things that just really don't have anything to do with the problem.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nell

A lack of increase should cause those "in charge" to take a look at the fruit of their ways. A lack of increase should cause those who practice and preach authority, authority, authority to take a look at the fruit of their overbearing authority...the fruit of their brand of "authority".

Historically, those "in charge" have a proclivity to look at only what they believe to be their "good fruit" and deny or dismiss or blame the pain and suffering of their congregants on the congregants themselves. In other words, they have a "shoot the messenger" mentality---yet they can't figure out why there is a "lack of increase?"

If you really want to know why there is a "lack of increase", listen to your critics. They know. They've been telling you for years. If you had listened to those the Lord sent your way over the last 50 years, you might not be here today scratching your heads, wondering "what's going on?"

If it's asked inquisitively or rhetorically, do elders/co-workers really want to hear an answer?
Just as Nell said, "listen to your critics". I would say there is a "Drip! Drip! Drip!" effect causing attrition and lack of an increase.

• Daystar
• Max
• Philip Lee
• April 1986 ITERO - Elders Pledge of Allegiance
• Doorknocking Flow
• Rosemead
• Concerns of John So, Bill Mallon among others
• Full-TIme Trainings
• Quarantine of TItus Chu

It may not be a whole lot at a single given time, but add it up over the years of 1973-2006 and it's many who had left. Some will point out as Nell had, "look at their fruit". Some have have left for something simple as feeling overburdened and peer pressure to provide hospitality for bi-annual trainings.
Of course, should the elders/co-workers ask, they don't want to hear answers I've given.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Terry

It may not be a whole lot at a single given time, but add it up over the years of 1973-2006 and it's many who had left. Some will point out as Nell had, "look at their fruit". Some have have left for something simple as feeling overburdened and peer pressure to provide hospitality for bi-annual trainings.
Of course, should the elders/co-workers ask, they don't want to hear answers I've given.

So this forum has about 450 members (right UntoHim?). And the lion's share of members here are essentially against the practices of the LC. This is for a variety of individual reasons and most are not meeting with the LC. So let's say that brings it down to 400 (assuming about 50 members are still meeting with the LC). What would you say the portion these 400 members are of all disgruntled ones out there are? I'd say the largest percentage we might represent is just 10%. But I suspect that representative percentage to be much smaller, say 2-5% perhaps. Therefore that's as much as 20,000 people - or more - who have left that we on here represent!

The math may be fuzzy to be sure, but the point is we on this forum represent a much, much larger group of those that have some issue that caused us to leave the LC.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Terry

If it's asked inquisitively or rhetorically, do elders/co-workers really want to hear an answer?
Just as Nell said, "listen to your critics". I would say there is a "Drip! Drip! Drip!" effect causing attrition and lack of an increase.

• Daystar
• Max
• Philip Lee
• April 1986 ITERO - Elders Pledge of Allegiance
• Doorknocking Flow
• Rosemead
• Concerns of John So, Bill Mallon among others
• Full-TIme Trainings
• Quarantine of TItus Chu

It may not be a whole lot at a single given time, but add it up over the years of 1973-2006 and it's many who had left. Some will point out as Nell had, "look at their fruit". Some have have left for something simple as feeling overburdened and peer pressure to provide hospitality for bi-annual trainings.
Of course, should the elders/co-workers ask, they don't want to hear answers I've given.

I think there are two avenues of attrition in the LC, which you seem to have touched upon.

I would describe most of your bulleted list above as "severing an artery" (save the FTTA). That's one way members are lost en masse. Something significant happens, the ones who know the truth or see the reality leave in large numbers, and the LC faithful term it a "turmoil".

The other way I would best describe as hematidrosis, or bleeding through the skin (actually through sweat glands/pores). It's just the kind of constant loss that happens daily, weekly, monthly as row after row of saints across the churches reach the disillusioned point. It's not the "there was a turmoil" or "there was a coverup", but it's the "I'm just unhappy here and I can't handle it anymore".

There are pervasive issues in the LC that manifest in the spikes that get an official label. It's like being covered in boils or blisters, and the turmoils are just the ones that burst. Well, that's a gross analogy. Maybe a better one is a seismograph.....there are always rumblings in the earth, and it builds until you get the earthquakes.

Anyway, if the underlying issues were addressed, the turmoils wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) occur.

I think the historical stuff doesn't hold as much sway for the church kids who are now leaving as adults, or for the new ones who are caught and then the honeymoon period fades away. It may be that learning about the historical stuff is the final piece of the puzzle, or is the straw that breaks the camels back, but they would already been well into constructing the puzzle, or well into the camel being overloaded. They would already be suffering under the inauthentic relationships, the strange coded language, the same old dry cardboard being spoken at each meeting/conference/training, the lack of love, etc. Those are some of the things I can think of currently causing people to bleed out.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Doggonit

The Lord's Recovery is bleeding out 2nd generation white kids at a rate that will make them unrecognizable to all of us who came in the LC during the heyday of the late 60s - early 70s in about 10 years or so. Maybe sooner.

I fell off my chair laughing when Minoru waxed so eloquent about how the poor increase was due to "the first rebellion in the Recovery". Then of course it was that evil book "The Mind Benders" that stopped them in their tracks! Right. A book that sold, what? A few thousand copies slowed down God's One Move On Earth?

The Lord's Recovery race demographics of late 70's/early 80's, what would you think it was? I'd venture to say in Southern California white majority and Chinese/Chinese-American second. It's been said as a result of the late 80's turmoil there was a "white-flight". I didn't know the context of that statement. I can tell you in my visits to Southern California over the last 20 years, the demographics have changed significantly. Predominantly Asian and Hispanic. I've considered could culture towards "authority and submission" play a role?

Speaking about "The Mind Benders" book I suppose back then just referring to the title gave unintended marketing. Out of those few thousand copies sold, how many were meeting with the local churches?