[Thankful Jane]

Good points, FPO. I checked your post and PMed you!!

Dear Hope,

The discussion is moving on and I plan to move on with it, but first of all, I would like to respond to something from yesterday. Also, since you have not responded to my request for further clarification about how I offended you, I will assume you did not feel the need to do so and that you are not still offended with me. If you would prefer to have further dialogue about this privately, please feel free to contact me via a PM.

Originally Posted by Hope

When I saw the direction in which dj was leading the thread, I could not hold my peace.

Not being able to hold our peace is not an excuse for going after a person. It is wrong to make a person and their motives the subject.

When we are disturbed by what we are hearing, the only thing that is fair game is the statements or deeds that are disturbing us. We can expose the error we see in them. (Granted, it may feel quite personal when statements or actions are questioned, but that is different than making the person the topic.)

Originally Posted by Hope

Posters on this forum take the actions and teachings of WL, the LSM and the BBs and come to conclussions about their motives. Are posters here under the same standard unless they are in an attack mode against all that is lc? Then do they get a free shot? From the actions and teachings of posters can a reasonable person fail to pick up on some of their motives or does that only apply to WL or an elder or an ex-elder?

As for addressing motives, we shouldn’t do this no matter who it is. No one gets a free pass. We can address deeds because we can see them, but we cannot see inside a man’s heart to know his motives. Maybe we can wonder and even have suspicion in our own mind, but to pronounce a public judgment about another’s perceived motives is over the line. We are all guilty of this at times; however, I don’t think anyone has done this to you on this thread. If I or anyone else has, please show me where. I will gladly repent for this if I did it.

Originally Posted by Hope

As this thread developed, it went from how may the LCS have contributed to errant behavior of some of the children to the members are like drug addicts and thus have dysfunctional families to all are idolaters to stories of gross abuses of authority and attacks and belittling of anyone who offers a different perspective. Thus my prediction seems to be coming true.

I think it's okay to use such terms to talk about serious problems related to "spiritual things." I am involved in a situation right now where the father is actually a God addict. That doesn’t mean he is really addicted to God. It means he is addicted to things that have the appearance of being God: church, ministry, serving others, etc. All his time and resources go there. This is what makes him feel good about himself. His drug keeps him from really seeing himself in the light of God and making very necessary changes in his present hurtful behavior towards his family. He is not putting obedience to God first, but is serving something else (idolatry). He is also guilty of abusing authority.

Please give me an example of what you are calling attacks and belittling. You’ve said this several times. I really want to see what you are talking about here. Not accepting another’s perspective does not equal belittling.

Originally Posted by Hope

Concern for abused children is way down the line from discrediting all involved in a local church.

My goal is not to discredit any person or locality or the LC movement as a whole. Rather it is to know the truth and to help others know the truth. Truth is what really helps people find freedom. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." If in any person or Christian organization is found to be not holding truth, then they stand self-discredited by this.

Originally Posted by Hope

TJ recommended the books of Neil Anderson. Tremendous work, not just for troubled Christians or substance abuse situations but for anyone. I believe I have read and closely studied all his works and have given them to troubled parents and children. I cannot recall him encouraging the counselor to find out how or what outside influence created the problem.

Thanks for mentioning Anderson’s works. Actually Anderson does speak about the importance of addressing what outside influence created the problem. He says, “The first step to freedom is to renounce your previous or current involvements with satanically inspired occult practices and false religions … Any activity or group which denies Jesus is the Christ, offers guidance through any source other than the absolute authority of the written Word of God, or requires secret initiations must be forsaken. No Christian has any business being a part of any group that is not completely open about all they do. If the leaders of any group demand absolute authority instead of serving the needs of their constituents, do no submit to them.” He includes a list of organizations. In His book Living Free in Christ, the Local Church is listed. In this step he is dealing with outside influences that contribute to the problem.

The most applicable step I believe, however, is step 2 which is truth vs. deception. This step requires separating truth from deception. Anderson says that deception is the most subtle of all Satanic strongholds. I spent a lot of time studying deception and reading other materials about this. I wrote some about it myself. I reached the conclusion that “deception” is the best description of the stronghold of Satan in the Local Churches. False beliefs and false teachings produce bad fruit. If a Christian group produces bad fruit in its members lives, then that all of that group’s teachings and beliefs must be carefully examined against the truth in God’s Word for what is false.

As for bringing up cases of abuse in the LC, there are many reasons to do this. The first is so that the abused can be comforted by fellow members. What they have lost cannot be recovered, but care, and even indignation, expressed by others does help them, even if the abused say they don’t need it. All of our hearts are examined by God in the process.

Also, cases of abuse are useful to identify what kind of deception is at work by examining the abusive practices in the light of the Bible’s teaching. Hearing about such cases can help others, who have been abused and are still suffering silently because of it, to realize they are not alone and begin to find help for themselves. They also can serve to convict abusers of their sin, and, of course, to warn others not to join up with the LC. Probably most important of all reasons to examine cases of abuse is that the final spotlight lands on the devil, where it belongs, and he loses the ability in that area, at least, to deceive us again.

Thankful Jane