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Originally Posted by OBW
Z,
I have never said to refrain from praying for the nation. And if you are only focused on Cahn's actual call to prayer, then you might not have any complaint.
But the first half was a run-up to the call to prayer based on the assumption that, like Israel, America was founded in the same manner. And that things like the Mayflower compact, the first inaugural address, and many other statements constituted a basis for Israel-like blessings that we should be able to pray back into existence.
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I did not listen to the speech until after reading the debate on it. Therefore I was looking specifically for this and found that the speech was very nuanced and never said this. He used Israel as an example of how God can both bless and discipline a nation. He said that the US is the most blessed nation in human history, but never made a connection to God's covenant with Israel as though the US has a special covenant with God and he never insinuated that either. The point I got is that if you pray for God's blessings then you have to also expect God's discipline. Washington's inaugural address and the subsequent consecration of the New nation were evidence that many had prayed for God's blessing, as further evidenced by a prayer breakfast on the morning of the inauguration for the blessings of God.
His contention is that 9/11 was the harbinger of God's judgment. On the surface that seems like the kind of thing that many false teachers would use to sell books. However, his 9 harbingers based on Isaiah 9:10 are very compelling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW
In effect, these historical documents, speeches, etc., are being treated like a contract between America and God upon which we can be blessed. And returning to that state is being treated like a "first love." We love that country so much better than the one we have now. We have the most tolerant country ever (or at least nearly so) and yet we have to have more. It is consuming us. We are willing to redirect the thrust of our prayers to get it back.
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Yes, he contends that we have removed and erased God from our national psyche, and this is strongly related to God's judgment. His major example was 50 million abortions. This is why I used the verse reference that I did to show that abortions were the basis for God to give the good land to Israel and drive the nations that were there out. 50 million abortions is a strong basis for God's judgment. The NT is clear, God is the one who raises up kingdoms and overthrows them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW
I am all for praying for peace within our borders and with the rest of the world. I am for praying for a turn in the minds of those who would call unrighteousness righteousness. I am for prayer to turn hearts from wickedness to God. But even if there is a true revival, I do not dare treat it as some kind of special blessing from God on the nation, but on those who turn back to Him.
We are sojourners in a foreign land. It may be a reasonably favorable land, but it is not the kingdom of God. It is the kingdom of the world. No matter how good an inaugural address is, how righteous the Mayflower compact was, how many references there were to God in various other documents or how many times meetings of the fledgling government were opened with prayer — even of some length — it is a secular nation. No amount or prayer can put on the nation a label that does not apply to all of its citizens. And "followers of God" does not apply to nearly all of them now.
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Once again, I listened carefully and there was not any suggestion that I picked up that this nation is "the kingdom or God".
According to my reading of the US constitution there is no law that makes abortion legal. However, I do feel there is a law that prohibits the federal government from legalizing abortion. The freedom of religion, as a right, says that the US government will not make any law that prohibits the worship of God. I think the verses that I have quoted as well as many others in the OT make it very clear that sacrificing your child or your seed to Molech (God of fornication) or Baal (your career) is something that inhibits the free worship of our God in this country. Therefore, according to the Constitution the Federal government has no right to legalize it, especially in the way they did with a Supreme Court ruling which essentially makes it a law on some bogus explanation. Abortion is something that each state should decide for themselves. That would not make us any less of a "secular nation".
Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW
Or even then. They may have had a better percentage. Or at least so if you take into account the fact that much of the major philosophy of the day was Judeo-Christian based. But while a valid study of the scripture is rightly a branch of philosophy, a philosophy merely based upon its tenets does not a Christian make. And there was plenty of that in play in that day and age. Pascal's wager was relatively new and probably was part of some amount of the apparent "belief" of some whose lives did not seem to measure up. Probably a lot of mental hedging of bets.
And I have no problem with them having written our founding documents and leading us into the next century as a nation rather than as a collection of squabbling, independent states.
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So then we cannot pray for God's blessing because only a minority of citizens are "followers of God"? I already gave you the verse that God blessed the Egyptian household that Joseph was in for Joseph's sake. Surely Joseph was a minority, but he was a "follower of God" and that was sufficient. Now if God can bless Egypt for Joseph's sake and almost sink a ship for Jonah's sake, I think it is very clear that God can judge this nation for keeping silent while an unimaginable slaughter is going on.