A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us

[Thankful Jane]

I don't know where to put this thread so I am putting it here with the rest of my testimony, since this is, in some ways, a continuation of it ....

This is not something I can write about well at this time because it is underway and we (my husband and I and some others) are watching and participating as He leads us to do so. He has been appearing in a way that, to me, is close to signs and wonders with respect to several different matters--one of which is Him moving to clear up some things from our LC past.

All this actually started in October 2011. God began moving ahead very specifically and openly, and we followed, for a period of about six months. Then these things stopped and for the next 10 months as God uprooted us out of our old living situation and moved us to our new location. Then, after we were settled, last week, much to our surprise, like the cloud leading the children of Israel in the wilderness, God started moving again, picking up exactly where we left off last year in the previously mentioned matters, almost as if the 10 months in between had just been in a parentheses. Incredibly, some of the things that have happened in these different matters are woven together or maybe I should say have crisscrossed or intersected each other.

Okay, I am sorry that this all sounds kind of mysterious and maybe even like a heavenly 'teaser' but that's the best I can do for now.

I wish I had words that could convey what I am seeing of Him. He is faithful, oh so faithful, and oh so awesome. Observing what has been happening, and through it hearing His speaking from the heavens, I have begun to understand a little more of the fear of the Lord ... it makes me tremble in awe, almost fear, on one hand, while at the same time it causes me to feel secure, knowing how He--the holy, righteous and true One--deeply loves and cares for each and every one of us and always acts for our highest good.

I loved reading this week what Moses said when the cloud went up off of the tabernacle and the children of Israel began to move:

Numbers 10: [35] And it came to pass, when the ark set forward, that Moses said, Rise up, LORD, and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thee. [36] And when it rested, he said, Return, O LORD, unto the many thousands of Israel.


After witnessing a few more of what I can only call God's actions this past week, I received a Youtube this morning from a friend. I watched it, and it moved me to the core, as it also did my husband when I showed it to him at breakfast. The end of it brought both of us to tears.

Parallels to what has been happening around us were sounding out to us through the Word that he (a Messianic Jew) spoke ... honestly I have no words.

So, I will just post the link, since my main reason for starting this thread is to share it. This Word was spoken at the Inaugural Day Prayer Breakfast in Washington DC on the day of the Presidential Inauguration.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2H9fniQTY

Thankful Jane

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

IParallels to what has been happening around us were sounding out to us through the Word that he (a Messianic Jew) spoke ... honestly I have no words.

So, I will just post the link, since my main reason for starting this thread is to share it. This Word was spoken at the Inaugural Day Prayer Breakfast in Washington DC on the day of the Presidential Inauguration.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2H9fniQTY

Thank you for sharing what you have Sister,

The message given here was something that had touched me as well - I've read his book and heard him a number of times in his speaking engagements. I believe what he is saying, about God's speaking to us in our days... and what he believes God is telling us.... but I think many, many Christians do not believe him.

For too long, Christians who affirm that there are 66 books in Bible somehow neglect the 39 of them that are in the Old Testament, and particularly the Prophets. While on the one hand, we say "God is the same yesterday, today and forever" we seek to know Him only in the New Testament... and through "good feelings". We preach that "God is love", and "He loves everyone", but God's Word is clear - He is also Holy and Righteous and Just, and He will not be mocked.

Unfortunately, LSM isn't alone in it's aberrant theology of God - making of Him little more than a teddy bear who just wants to snuggle, a "Jesus-is-so-sweet!" God, soft and syruppy. We seem to so easily forget that when He comes again, He will come spattered in the blood of His enemies (Isaiah 63:3), to Judge the nations for their treatment of His people Israel. Truly the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Lord, drive your people to Read Your Word!

PS: Really appreciated the ministry of Kay Arthur, whom I saw with my wife the weekend past in Edmonton, Alberta. Kay's burden is for us all to get into the Word - and NOT into another man's commentary. If you want to love God and truly know Him, you need to understand Him from His own first-hand account of Himself! She too has an Inductive Study Bible - and it's a REAL Study Bible - no footnotes or shortcuts or private translations. Just an NASB with wide margins for your own personal notes, and a list of questions to ask of the text as you dig into it: Who said this? When was this said? What was being said? Where was this said? Why was this said? How can I apply what is said? Sounds simple, doesn't it? Really opens your eyes though, when you apply it.. and don't think study is a light or quick matter. We spent two and a half hours on a single excerpt from a chapter in Romans. Incredibly eye-opening. I recommend hearing what this sister has to say, if you never have. She has an incredible testimony as well.

www.preceptministries.ca

[OBW]

I couldn't listen beyond about 6:30. Likening America to Israel in terms of national blessing, prosperity, etc. from God and setting an agenda to "get it back" is an effort in futility. It is not a "biblical" line of reasoning.

I originally had a lot more to say. Suffice it that I am more inclined to follow the thinking in a book entitled The Myth of the American Nation (or something like that) that I read several years ago.

Now I do not say to skip praying for the nation. Praying for the president, the leaders and members of the government. Keep it up. Mostly, pray for the peace of the nation, both within and without.

But expect pain and suffering. We were told not to expect better than our Master. The gospel is about the forgiveness of sins, not the legislation of a better life for Christians. It is changed lives due to something inside, not changes in laws to force behaviors.

It is not a popular position among many of my Christian friends and even relatives. Probably not here either.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

I couldn't listen beyond about 6:30. Likening America to Israel in terms of national blessing, prosperity, etc. from God and setting an agenda to "get it back" is an effort in futility. ...

That wasn't his point....you should hear him out.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

That wasn't his point....you should hear him out.

That could e right. But he was building up to it through this point. It makes the tolerance for continued listening difficult. If the first part was not necessary to get to his "point" then I might try to skip forward to some relevant part later. Can someone give me a reasonable time marker to skip forward to? I'm willing to give it a chance.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by OBW

Can someone give me a reasonable time marker to skip forward to? I'm willing to give it a chance.

I second the motion. Or a synopsis to see if I want to listen to the whole thing.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I second the motion. Or a synopsis to see if I want to listen to the whole thing.

Maybe you should change "alwayslearning" to "sometimeslearning". Good grief! Just listen to the whole thing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

That wasn't his point....you should hear him out.

Thanks Nell.

There's not many times in life when one can hear someone speak for God with such passion and conviction. Could he sound much different than Isaiah, Jeremiah, or the other prophets of old?

Time to take a look at his book ...

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks Nell.

There's not many times in life one when can hear someone speak for God with such passion and conviction. Could he sound much different than Isaiah, Jeremiah, or the other prophets of old?

Time to take a look at his book ...

Hi Ohio (:-)
Nope. I don't see how. He sounds like a prophet to me. Based on his message and the message in his book, his demeanor, like you say, passion and conviction. If he's not a prophet, I don't know what/who is.

I downloaded his book and am on Ch4. I can't put it down. It's really connecting the dots for me.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Nell

Maybe you should change "alwayslearning" to "sometimeslearning". Good grief! Just listen to the whole thing.

What?! No CliffNotes?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

What?! No CliffNotes?

No Cliff Notes.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

That could e right. But he was building up to it through this point. It makes the tolerance for continued listening difficult. If the first part was not necessary to get to his "point" then I might try to skip forward to some relevant part later. Can someone give me a reasonable time marker to skip forward to? I'm willing to give it a chance.

You could have been finished by now.

[Paul Cox]

If you get caught up on the particulars of whether or not America is a modern day Israel, you miss a very important point. Those things aside, we can't deny that the Lord causes certain kings to rise and others to fall. This in an indisputable fact. If a nation, such as England or the United States of America, has been so widely used to spread the gospel, because they opened their hearts to God in their founding principles, then certainly the Lord will deal with them in a disciplinary way when they wander from those principles.
A brother shared something with me the other night that was very enlightening. He said that we Christians need to move away from activism, and towards prayers. It was always through repentance and prayer that the Lord was able to turn the heart of a nation.
Christians have never been more politically active than they are right now, and yet it seems that one election cycle after another, and one Supreme Court session after another evil continues to prevail.
When listening to the Lord we need to be saved from being so intellectual and intelligent. That is one thing that I appreciate about being delivered from the Local Church. They shout "spirit, spirit," but in fact, their religion is ALL in the head. Sometimes when you are talking to them, and share some real light, they seem stunned that it wasn't in the body of Witness Lee head knowledge that was drilled into them. They don't know what to do with it.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

You could have been finished by now.

I've been out of town with poor internet reception and working long hours. Your presumption about my time is insulting.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

I've been out of town with poor internet reception and working long hours. Your presumption about my time is insulting.

Sorry. Not my intention.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

...It was always through repentance and prayer that the Lord was able to turn the heart of a nation.

Yes and yes. This is what the Lord has really put on my heart the last few years. Political and social change follows change in the hearts of men. I heard two men interviewed last year (names escape me at the moment, but one was an evangelical and the other a Catholic priest) who were collaborating to write a book that shows how government and society always tend downward until there is a spiritual revival. Their book documents that in history everytime government and society have improved it has been because a spiritual revival occurred first. Spiritual revival comes when people genuinely repent from sin and turn back to God. This is what I have been praying for mostly--that the Spirit will come like the latter rain to "convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment" and that men will repent and turn back to God. I've also been praying the Lord's prayer that His kingdom come, that it be on earth as it IS in heaven.

The end result for me of the message by Jonathan Cahn (and I heard him interviewed expressing his hope of this for hearers) was that I was freshly awakened to the need, even the absolute necessity, that God's people begin to pray day and night for such repentance.

Please, to any who have not taken time to listen to his message, do so as soon as you can. You will be surprised at what he shares. It is not a general "judgment is coming" type message. Cahn makes it plain that God is speaking through undeniable biblical signs (a few of which he points out in his message and they are stunning) in these last days... things that show how very real and involved God is in modern day times.

I am about half way through his book, The Harbinger, and would say it is a must read. Will people listen? I am afraid that most people will be much like God's people of old who shut their ears to the voices of the prophets that God sent to warn them and turn them so He could restore them.

I agree with Ohio that this is the closest I have ever come to hearing a prophet. I do not believe he had any agenda but to deliver a message that would shake us to the core and cause us to begin to bow our knees as if everything depended on it, for indeed I think it does.

Thankful Jane

[alwayslearning]

I was able to listen to his entire talk this morning. I don't think his passion can be disputed however I disagree with his underlying premise i.e. America was once a blessed nation because it was founded on eternal and heavenly principles and consecrated to God/Jesus and is losing (or has lost) that blessing under God's judgment for our sinful ways. And that the Twin Tower attack and more recent economic turn down are signs of this judgment. I think this is a very selective view of American history.

In actuality the nation was founded upon 3 strands of tradition: Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment. Many of the founders were Deists not Christians. They belonged to Masonic Lodges. Several had mistresses. Most owned slaves. But they were also quite smart and learned. Drawing on these traditions and adding in their own insights they were able to put together the documents and framework and begin building the institutions of a new nation. This was messy work at best as one finds out when they dig into the archives to see how the sausage was made - so to speak.

Whenever I hear that America has sinned and is under God's judgment and needs to turn back to Him (not an unusual theme) I always wonder 2 things:

1. At what time were we as a nation turned to God in the first place? What is the benchmark?

2. What would this look like in practical application today? How would American society actually function and operate once it "turned back to God"?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

In actuality the nation was founded upon 3 strands of tradition: Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment. Many of the founders were Deists not Christians.

A lot of people believe that. A lot of Christians believe that. This is what Americans have been told since the mid-sixties now... that must mean it's right, right?

How do you know that is the truth? Do you think "the world" (speaking Biblically) might have an agenda to make you believe this? To push Christianity (and more importantly, Christ) so far out of the picture that your president can address the Muslim world from Cairo and say "America is NOT a Christian nation."?

"History is written by the victors" - and "the world", with it's "god of this age", is apparently reigning victorious across the globe. The world does indeed have an agenda, and we need to be armed with knowledge of the Truth if we are to overcome it.

Have any of you heard of "The Truth Project"? My wife and I are going through it with another couple from our church on Monday nights. Amazing teaching - it's all about the "Biblical worldview: God's view on everything". It is published by Focus on the Family, and honestly, it will just open your eyes to so much of the deception and strategies of the devil today.... It's not available for general purchase unless you go through the training on it (but it's offered to churches, or to lay people, if you wish to take the training on-line). It's not cheap, not hokey - it's a real honest, deep look at the world around us and the lies that have been told to us. It equips people in a way I have never seen done before; it's for adults, but kids really need to see it too... I can't do it justice.

Anyway, I want to recommend it. Lesson Ten (where we were at last week) was on "The American Experiment". It was absolutely heart-breaking how far - how very far - America has fallen. I don't say this to condemn, I'm Canadian - but Canada is more corrupt than your nation yet is... the only difference is, we never had your foundation. We never rose to your heights.

Here are the trailers for these lessons - I can't say more strongly that this is something every Christian should see. Trailers for the lessons are HERE.

You can learn about the Truth Project HERE.

PS: I KNOW I recommend a lot of sites and readings - if you never look at ANYTHING I suggest, please - just this once, look at this. It is truly timely teaching.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

A lot of people believe that. A lot of Christians believe that. This is what Americans have been told since the mid-sixties now... that must mean it's right, right?

How do you know that is the truth? Do you think "the world" (speaking Biblically) might have an agenda to make you believe this? To push Christianity (and more importantly, Christ) so far out of the picture that your president can address the Muslim world from Cairo and say "America is NOT a Christian nation."?

I know it's the truth because I have studied it at length and in depth and I recommend you do the same.

And America is not a Christian nation and neither is it a theocracy. It is a secular nation that legally protects the freedom of religion and conscience. Not just the Christian religion - any religion.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I know it's the truth because I have studied it at length and in depth and I recommend you do the same.

And America is not a Christian nation and neither is it a theocracy. It is a secular nation that legally protects the freedom of religion and conscience. Not just the Christian religion - any religion.

it was mainly Christian men, (and there were many of them), not secular men, who were the source of the form of government we have today, one that "legally protects the freedom of religion and conscience. Not just the Christian religion - any religion."

In your studies, did you by any chance look at the work of David Barton (Wallbuilders.com)? He is a historian who has surfaced, studied, and made available to the public many historical documents by many of the founding fathers. In so doing, he has brought to light hidden truth about the founding of America which has been purposely obscured by the god of this age, as NeitherFirstNorLast mentioned.

Here is a link with some of the quotes from documents he has brought to light: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...es.asp?id=8755.

Would to God that we had such men in high governmental positions today.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

it was mainly Christian men, (and there were many of them), not secular men, who were the source of the form of government we have today, one that "legally protects the freedom of religion and conscience. Not just the Christian religion - any religion."

Yes they were mostly "Christian" men (depending on how that is defined) who designed the form of government we have today. Christian men who were informed by the Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment traditions. E.g. democracy was from the Greek tradition.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

In your studies, did you by any chance look at the work of David Barton (Wallbuilders.com)? He is a historian who has surfaced, studied, and made available to the public many historical documents by many of the founding fathers. In so doing, he has brought to light hidden truth about the founding of America which has been purposely obscured by the god of this age, as NeitherFirstNorLast mentioned.

This is not hidden truth. It is documented and well known. But even if it was not well documented it would be common sense to surmise that many of the founding fathers would be Christians. What else would they be considering the history of the colonies?

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Here is a link with some of the quotes from documents he has brought to light: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...es.asp?id=8755.

Would to God that we had such men in high governmental positions today.

Wonderful quotes now let's discuss a sampling of these men with a few more details added in:

1. Benjamin Franklin had an illegitimate son. He wrote a letter: "Advice to a Young Man on the Choice of Mistresses". And if Barton had continued the quote it would have shown that he was agnostic about the divinity of Christ.

2. Thomas Jefferson had illegitimate children. He composed the Jefferson Bible which cut out miracles and supernatural acts in the Gospels. And he taught that blacks were not equal to whites and if ever freed should be segregated from the superior whites.

3. Alexander Hamilton had a long term affair with a woman who's husband pimped her out to him for an annual fee which they obtained by blackmail i.e. pay us and we'll keep it quiet.

4. Gouverneur Morris who wrote large sections of the Constitution including the Preamble was a womanizer extraordinaire and even shared a mistress with Tallyrand when he was in France as the U.S. Ambassador.

I won't get into the details of how much Hamilton and Jefferson hated each other. Suffice it to say it was an ugly mess. And I won't discuss at length the vitriolic vicious rantings of John Adams against Hamilton - that "bastard brat of a Scottish peddler."

[bookworm]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Wonderful quotes now let's discuss a sampling of these men with a few more details added in:

1. Benjamin Franklin had an illegitimate son. He wrote a letter: "Advice to a Young Man on the Choice of Mistresses". And if Barton had continued the quote it would have shown that he was agnostic about the divinity of Christ.

2. Thomas Jefferson had illegitimate children. He composed the Jefferson Bible which cut out miracles and supernatural acts in the Gospels. And he taught that blacks were not equal to whites and if ever freed should be segregated from the superior whites.

3. Alexander Hamilton had a long term affair with a woman who's husband pimped her out to him for an annual fee which they obtained by blackmail i.e. pay us and we'll keep it quiet.

4. Gouverneur Morris who wrote large sections of the Constitution including the Preamble was a womanizer extraordinaire and even shared a mistress with Tallyrand when he was in France as the U.S. Ambassador.

I won't get into the details of how much Hamilton and Jefferson hated each other. Suffice it to say it was an ugly mess. And I won't discuss at length the vitriolic vicious rantings of John Adams against Hamilton - that "bastard brat of a Scottish peddler."

The book Fresh Wind Fresh Fire written by Pastor Jim Cymbala is well written. I was amazed by his reference to verses in Revelation 5:1-5. “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to break its seals?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look into it. So I began weeping bitterly because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. Then one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping! Look, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered; thus he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Then Cymbala goes on to point out how fallen Judah was (with Tamar) and King David (with Bathsheba) but out of this fallen humanity God brought forth a Savior for all mankind. We will never be worthy but Christ is our righteousness.
Pointing out human frailties does not diminish the work of God and the saving Power of Jesus Christ. The accuser of the brethren constantly points out the fallen nature of humanity but Jesus Christ came in the flesh to overcome sin and death. The fact that humans are fallen is not news to God and it does not diminish His power or His plans and our need to pray for His Kingdom to come, His will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by bookworm

Then Cymbala goes on to point out how fallen Judah was (with Tamar) and King David (with Bathsheba) but out of this fallen humanity God brought forth a Savior for all mankind. We will never be worthy but Christ is our righteousness.
Pointing out human frailties does not diminish the work of God and the saving Power of Jesus Christ. The accuser of the brethren constantly points out the fallen nature of humanity but Jesus Christ came in the flesh to overcome sin and death. The fact that humans are fallen is not news to God and it does not diminish His power or His plans and our need to pray for His Kingdom to come, His will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

I'm not sure what your post has to do with this thread unless you are suggesting in a democratic society that the moral character of leaders is irrelevant and should be covered up. Or in the case of Jefferson and Franklin that believing in the divinity of Christ is not a requirement for being a Christian.

I am addressing the position of Cahn that at one time America was a blessed nation and because of our sin is no longer (or is losing) this blessing. If I am understanding you correctly Cahn should not be pointing this sin out? Or it was OK for the founding fathers to sin but if we sin we will lose the blessing?

In any event in an earlier post I asked these question which adherents to Cahn's position (and others with the same theme) never seem to be able to answer:

1. At what time were we as a nation turned to God in the first place? What is the benchmark?

2. What would this look like in practical application today? How would American society actually function and operate once it "turned back to God"?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

...

1. At what time were we as a nation turned to God in the first place? What is the benchmark?

April 30, 1789.

We as a nation turned to God in in the first place in 1789 when our newly inaugurated leader turned to God. In George Washington's First Inaugural Address given on April 30, 1789, we as a nation were turned to God from the first day the United States of America existed as a nation.

"... since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained; ..."

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

...
2. What would this look like in practical application today? How would American society actually function and operate once it "turned back to God"?

That's a nobrainer.
a. Prayer would not be banned in public schools.
b. It would not be legal to murder unborn children.
c. Nativity scenes would not be banned in the courthouse square.
d. Scriptural truth would not be condemned as "hate" or "intolerant".
e. Scripture ingraved in stone on public buildings would be legal.
f. Students would be free to include prayer in their own graduation speeches without being harrassed.
etc., etc., etc.

Did I say that in an America "turned back to God" it would not be legal to murder unborn children?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Nell

April 30, 1789.

We as a nation turned to God when our leaders turned to God. In George Washington's First Inaugural Address given on April 30, 1789, we as a nation were turned to God from the first day the United States of America existed as a nation.

"... since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained; ..."

So your position is that even though many of the founders were involved in sinful activity since Washington - a Masonic lodge member who was slated to become a Grandmaster - said the above somehow the nation was turned to God?

Originally Posted by Nell

That's a nobrainer.

a. Prayer would not be banned in public schools.
b. It would not be legal to murder unborn children.
c. Nativity scenes would not be banned in the courthouse square.
d. Scriptural truth would not be condemned as "hate" or "intolerant".
e. Scripture ingraved in stone on public buildings would be legal.
f. Students would be free to include prayer in their own graduation speeches without being harrassed.
etc., etc., etc.

So please tell us what the country was like when the above was not the case i.e. when the country was supposedly blessed by God. How did we treat the indigenous people groups? How did we treat black people? How about the Jazz Age? What was that like? How about the ruthlessness and corruption in which business was conducted? How about Christians persecuting each other e.g. Congregationalists hanging Quakers for their religious beliefs etc., etc, etc. If kids could pray in schools why was this happening? If nativity scenes were allowed on the courthouse square why was this happening?

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

So your position is that even though many of the founders were involved in sinful activity since Washington - a Masonic lodge member who was slated to become a Grandmaster - said the above somehow the nation was turned to God?



So please tell us what the country was like when the above was not the case i.e. when the country was supposedly blessed by God. How did we treat the indigenous people groups? How did we treat black people? How about the Jazz Age? What was that like? How about the ruthlessness and corruption in which business was conducted? How about Christians persecuting each other e.g. Congregationalists hanging Quakers for their religious beliefs etc., etc, etc. If kids could pray in schools why was this happening? If nativity scenes were allowed on the courthouse square why was this happening?

Okay ... so you don't think the U.S. was ever blessed by God because a lot of bad things have happened in it and some of the founders did bad things. Got it.

Some of us think this nation has been blessed by God and that is because of its godly roots. Not much point in arguing about this that I can see.

Bottom line for me is prayer for people to return to God. Cahn's message caused me to pray more that men might be convicted of sin and humble themselves and repent and return to God. I can't see that there is ever a bad time for that kind of prayer. Repentance and turning to God clearly needs to happen. I posted Cahn's message because I heard the Lord's voice in it calling God's people to humble themselves and pray. (We always need to do that, don't we?) I felt it might likewise inspire others as it had inspired me. It didn't inspire you. Got it.

[countmeworthy]

I read -The Harbinger- last year or the year before after hearing about it on different forums. And just as on this forum some people were very moved, others were not.

Jonathan Cahn's testimony of how he came to write the book was very captivating. I really believe he was led by the Holy Spirit to make the comparisons between Israel and the U.S.

I have seen him on -Prophesy in the news-, Sid Roth's It's Supernatural, I think he was also on Perry Stone's program. I also heard him on the radio..not just Christian radio but on George Noory's Coast to coast radio show!! He will be at a prophesy conference in Florida next month and I am certain it will be telecast in April or May on "God's news behind the news".

I also agree with alwayslearning that our country is Christian in name. I have done my share of reading on the Freemasons, the Illuminati, the Bilderbergers, the Rothschilds, the powers that be. I think our founding fathers were religious Christians who quoted the scriptures but did not walk with the Lord.

I think our country has been richly blessed for 2 reasons:

1) the preaching, converting, and disciplining new and young believers. There have been many great revivals in the USA. More importantly, it is us "unknown" believers who have prayed and brought people to Christ, ministering to them so they can also share the Gospel and lead people to Christ that is the real Revival.

2) Our support of Israel.

I believe God has also blessed our country because in spite of the moral or lack of moral conduct of our founding fathers, they publicly displayed God's Word in their writings and are even plastered on the walls of Washington DC's monuments.

Who knows how many people have gotten saved reading the words on Jefferson or Lincoln's monument.

Our motto has been "One Nation under GOD" (The One True God).. Not one nation under Buddha, Confucius, Mohammed, or a pagan god.

I do not know how many countries aside from the US and Israel have used the Holy Scriptures in their constitutions.

I also think our nation is losing God's blessing and protection because we have pushed Him out of our lives. The Blessing and protection however IS with the True believers because we are the Light of the world right now.

As we edge closer to a one world government, one world currency and one world religion, the world is becoming more chaotic, violent, evil, and deceptive.

I agree with Thankful Jane to pray for our country (as well as the people, nations) to repent of their/our sins.

I pray everyday for the Holy Spirit to convict the hearts of people, to point them to Christ Jesus our Savior, THEIR Savior. I pray for us to be sanctified, to be set apart, to shine the Love and Light of Jesus. I pray for people to be drawn to the Living Word of God, for God to create in us all (believers and non believers) a clean and pure heart and for HIM to renew a right spirit within us all.

For years I too have been praying the Words "Thy Kingdom come, THY WILL be done on earth AS IT IS in heaven.

May God's Spirit and Word move us all to pray for one another, to pray for people to repent and return to our Creator with a loving and obedient heart.

Peace & Blessings all.

Carol Garza

[Nell]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

So your position is that even though many of the founders were involved in sinful activity since Washington - a Masonic lodge member who was slated to become a Grandmaster - said the above somehow the nation was turned to God??

Seriously. What was I thinking? God can't use imperfect, sinful men. He needs clean ones...like...uh...maybe....King David. Yeah...that's it. ... Wait.... Scratch King David. Uh....well....never mind. I'll have to do some research to find someone clean enough to be used by God...according to your standards.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

So please tell us what the country was like when the above was not the case i.e. when the country was supposedly blessed by God. How did we treat the indigenous people groups? How did we treat black people? How about the Jazz Age? What was that like? How about the ruthlessness and corruption in which business was conducted? How about Christians persecuting each other e.g. Congregationalists hanging Quakers for their religious beliefs etc., etc, etc. If kids could pray in schools why was this happening? If nativity scenes were allowed on the courthouse square why was this happening?

God is merciful to warn us---to call on His people to repent and turn back to Him; a call to forsake the sinful ways you describe. Then comes the day He decides He's had enough and He makes good on His warning. This is a pattern in the Old Testament. The Harbinger is a warning. A call to prayer and repentance.

So Cahn is wrong and our prayers and repentance are based on, according to you, an invalid premise? Is that what you're saying? So don't pray? Don't repent? Really?

Be at peace, AL. The worst that could happen is that God's people begin to pray and repent. How bad can it be? God in His mercy, grants us repentance, and answer our prayers; this nation is brought to repentance and we, as a nation, turn back to God.

Get it?

PS: Nathan the prophet went to King David and exposed his sin. David repented. What if there was no prophet?

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Okay ... so you don't think the U.S. was ever blessed by God because a lot of bad things have happened in it and some of the founders did bad things. Got it.

Some of us think this nation has been blessed by God and that is because of its godly roots. Not much point in arguing about this that I can see.

I posted Cahn's message because I heard the Lord's voice in it calling God's people to humble themselves and pray. (We always need to do that, don't we?) I felt it might likewise inspire others as it had inspired me. It didn't inspire you. Got it.

I've been off the forum for quite sometime now. But somebody informed me by email yesterday that Thankful Jane was getting considerable push-back about something she posted here. And after checking out this whole page all I can say is THANK YOU THANKFUL JANE! I'm convinced that you are obeying the Holy Spirit to high-lite this issue of our great need for repentance!

One thing I would suggest to some of your "push-backers" - go get the DVD of Kirk Cameron's "Monumental - The Movie" - watch the whole thing with an open mind. Then hurry back here and repent to everyone for having believed (and for re-publishing) lies about the formation of this great Nation.

P.S.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Some of us think this nation has been blessed by God and that is because of its godly roots.

What godly roots and what did the country look like when it was so called "blessed"? The 5 founders I mentioned obviously were not godly. Democracy has it's roots in Greece, separation of powers and checks in balances in the Roman Republic, governance by consent of the people and the social contract in the political philosophers of the European Enlightenment e.g. John Locke, etc.

And I would suggest that a black man coming off a feces and diseased filled boat to be sold in the market place as chattel might not share your views on how "blessed" America was way back when!

Originally Posted by thankful Jane

Bottom line for me is prayer for people to return to God. I can't see that there is ever a bad time for that kind of prayer. Repentance and turning to God clearly needs to happen. (We always need to do that, don't we?)

I'm 100% for prayer and repentance! The more the better.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Nell

Seriously. What was I thinking? God can't use imperfect, sinful men. He needs clean ones...like...uh...maybe....King David. Yeah...that's it. ... Wait.... Scratch King David. Uh....well....never mind. I'll have to do some research to find someone clean enough to be used by God...according to your standards.

I'm just trying to follow your reasoning. So far I gather that we need to repent for our sinful ways to keep or get God's blessing but the founders were exempt from this and could get the so called blessing in spite of their sinful ways.

Originally Posted by Nell

So Cahn is wrong and our prayers and repentance are based on, according to you, an invalid premise? Is that what you're saying? So don't pray? Don't repent? Really?

No that isn't what I'm saying. Of course we always need to be praying and repenting for our sins. That's a given for every Christian. We should be doing it on a regular basis. And maybe some need Cahn to tell them that. Good so now they know. But to be praying and repenting so America doesn't lose "the blessing" it had way back when presupposes that it had the blessing way back when. When was that exactly?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

... but the founders were exempt from this and could get the so called blessing in spite of their sinful ways.

Not my reasoning. I never said that. You did.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

... But to be praying and repenting so America doesn't lose "the blessing" it had way back when presupposes that it had the blessing way back when. When was that exactly?

I believe America has been the most blessed country on the face of the earth. You don't. I don't need a date and time. You do. Do your own research if you care to. Read The Harbinger or not.

The End.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Nell

I believe America has been the most blessed country on the face of the earth. You don't. I don't need a date and time. You do. Do your own research if you care to.

You believe it therefore it must be true? You don't need a date and time? Is that how history is being studied now?

I've done my research for many years and presented multiple facts in this forum. The facts don't support Cahn's premise i.e. if we repent from our sin we will not lose [or we'll get back] God's blessing that once was. Does he mean way back when the founders were habitually sinning and blacks were being sold in the marketplace? Or maybe he means when the Indian Removal Act was enacted that for the sake of gold mining allowed forcible removal of indigenous people off the lands they had been living on for generations. Is that the wonderful blessed era he is referring to? Is that what we really want to get back to?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I've done my research for many years and presented multiple facts in this forum.

AlwaysLearning,

You have said this a number of times - that you've done "years of research". Perhaps you have - I won't doubt you, and perhaps you have a professors credentials and a doctorate in American History, I don't know - "years of research" means different things to different peoples. Nevertheless, while your opinion seems formed and rigid, and while it seems we are unable to persuade you otherwise, I must still point this one thing out:

Israel was blessed because they made a covenant with God, and He, with them. Despite that covenant, Israel throughout the Old and New Testaments, was full of sin and corruption. Reading through the Old Testament, we see a continuous cycle of "a falling into sin, rebellion, a falling away, a judgement, a repentance (God raising up a Judge), a walking with God.... a falling into sin, rebellion, a falling away... etc. etc."

Israel, even today, is blessed by God. He promised them blessings forever - and replacement theologians cannot show anywhere in the Bible that God will ever permanently remove His blessings from them. "Though at times we are faithless, yet still is He faithful; He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.

America was settled by Pilgrims - Pilgrims who paid a tremendous price to follow their God out of England, to escape a tyrant King who claimed to rule by Divine Right. The price they paid to settle your nation was absolutely horrendous, but they did it for Christ and His Church. They made a covenant with our God on your shores - and while many American men and women have been faithless, I do believe God proved to America that He was faithful. He HAS blessed America, tremendously. Look around the world, the name of America is known (and yes, largely reviled today) everywhere. If you have done all the research you seem to suggest that you have, then I still think you have not done enough... or you haven't grasped the significance of what the founders of your country did... something that the founders of no other nation on earth apart from Moses himself ever did... they committed their children, their lives, and their testimony to the name of Jesus Christ. They ensured that every person in America received a Bible, and was educated about it. They committed themselves to prayer and fasting to seek His will... and if He wasn't faithful, then what does that say about Him?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

AlwaysLearning,

You have said this a number of times - that you've done "years of research". Perhaps you have - I won't doubt you, and perhaps you have a professors credentials and a doctorate in American History, I don't know - "years of research" means different things to different peoples. Nevertheless, while your opinion seems formed and rigid, and while it seems we are unable to persuade you otherwise, I must still point this one thing out:

Israel was blessed because they made a covenant with God, and He, with them. Despite that covenant, Israel throughout the Old and New Testaments, was full of sin and corruption. Reading through the Old Testament, we see a continuous cycle of "a falling into sin, rebellion, a falling away, a judgement, a repentance (God raising up a Judge), a walking with God.... a falling into sin, rebellion, a falling away... etc. etc."

Israel, even today, is blessed by God. He promised them blessings forever - and replacement theologians cannot show anywhere in the Bible that God will ever permanently remove His blessings from them. "Though at times we are faithless, yet still is He faithful; He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.

America was settled by Pilgrims - Pilgrims who paid a tremendous price to follow their God out of England, to escape a tyrant King who claimed to rule by Divine Right. The price they paid to settle your nation was absolutely horrendous, but they did it for Christ and His Church. They made a covenant with our God on your shores - and while many American men and women have been faithless, I do believe God proved to America that He was faithful. He HAS blessed America, tremendously. Look around the world, the name of America is known (and yes, largely reviled today) everywhere. If you have done all the research you seem to suggest that you have, then I still think you have not done enough... or you haven't grasped the significance of what the founders of your country did... something that the founders of no other nation on earth apart from Moses himself ever did... they committed their children, their lives, and their testimony to the name of Jesus Christ. They ensured that every person in America received a Bible, and was educated about it. They committed themselves to prayer and fasting to seek His will... and if He wasn't faithful, then what does that say about Him?

Well said.

[OBW]

Prepare for one of my entirely too long posts. And for me to step on some toes.

Here goes.


So America was blessed because:

• They mentioned God in the first inaugural address.
• There was prayer a few times recorded.

So America was blessed when:

• Its capital was burned in 1812.
• It destroyed more of its own lives over economic interests and slavery than have been lost in any war before or since. And if you think that war cured the problems surrounding slaves, then why MLKJr and Malcom X?
• It declared that it had "manifest destiny" and killed everything and everyone to the west to claim the land.

The fact is that societies and governments have risen and fallen over the centuries. Many of them enjoyed times of prosperity and peace for varying reasons. America enjoyed peace for many years because it was hard to send an invading force across vast oceans. So we could declare other countries in the Western Hemisphere off-limits to European forces because it was closer to home for us but not for them.

As I and others have said, we all need to pray and repent. But there is no Christian Nation with blessings to restore. That does not mean we need to repent less. But it is people who need to repent. Christians need to repent for denying justice in the name of their God. For carrying on in ways so un-Christian.

Those who are not Christian need to repent. They need to be saved. But the fact that they exist does not change the nature of the nation. It is a kingdom of the world, not the Kingdom of God.

This will get me in hot water, but I am mostly embarrassed to lay claim to the Christian faith when so many of my brothers and sisters rail against the nation (which is comprised of people, most of whom are not Christian) for not being pure enough to gain God's blessing on the nation. The way that so many of the spokespersons for the cause of Christian morality, any kind of so-called Christian nation, or those who try to legislate the lives of the nation according to Christian principles carry on is a shame to the gospel and to the God that they claim to represent.

Now, to go to the premise concerning some kind of view that the creation of America can be compared to the creation and continuation of the nation of Israel from the return from Egypt through the destruction of Jerusalem in about 72 AD.

Before Israel came to be, God made a covenant with Abraham to make a nation out of him, and beyond that, to bless the world through that nation. Who did God woo to leave their people to move the promised land and be made into a nation according to God’s promise? I can’t see even a huge stretch of the available facts getting to that comparison.

Abram was probably a happy man, living in Ur when God came to him. The Pilgrims, or whichever group you want to speak of concerning the creation of America, were out to beat the prophecy that we would be treated worse than our Master, Jesus. And even if you think you want to start with the Pilgrims, by the time of the 1770s where were they? The population of the area near to where they originally settled was populated mostly by others. Heavily a world of commerce, not of religion.

Not suggesting that Israel did not have commerce. But before there was an exodus; before there was Moses, Joshua, or Caleb; before the first or last of the judges; before Samuel; and before the first of the kings, God had made a covenant.

Israel did not become blessed because they decided to consecrate to God. They were blessed because God chose them as a people. And while it is correct to say that God is still choosing people, he is not choosing entire nations of people. The people of God are part of a “shadow nation.” A people who should be in, but not of the political nation in which they reside.

We chose to do our covenant in reverse. We decide that we would single-out bits of history, specific individuals, and even recast a few more, to patch together a declaration concerning the country that was not even hinted at during the day.

And among the founding fathers is one that is popular to read about with recent biographies available (John and Abigail Adams) we find a declaration that the country is not a Christian nation. In speaking/writing in the context of the conflict with the Barbary Pirates, John was explicit to state that the nation was not simply Christian. When I last read that account (a couple of years ago) I recall that it represented, to me, one of the most Christian responses in that it was righteous without being specifically Christian or favoring the Christian over the Muslim or followers of another god.

I will grant that some of the leaders did honor God in their statements. But no matter how many of such statements were made, what causes them to constitute a covenant with God that was endowed with God’s blessing? Even if we could accurately assert that they all intended to make such a covenant, remember that the pattern is God coming to Abram with a covenant. God gave Abram/Abraham and his offspring the land that the nation ultimately inhabited.

It might be easy to compare the battles required to evict the existing inhabitants of the “good land,” but just because there was such a series of battles does not make our continuing land grab comparable. Just because you can see an aspect of similarity does not make it comparable.

Last, even though I agree that all Christians do need to be in repentance, the first question that comes to mind is “since when did we not need to repent?” What makes being in America require it more than in France, Greece, Indonesia or Serbia? Maybe the real problem is that within the evangelical community out of which most of the “Christian Nation” rhetoric comes, we are too enamored with “victory,” “joy,” “glory,” improved spirituality, and much less with the constant realization of our need for grace and repentance. Yes, we speak of it, but we join together in worship to focus on ourselves and what God is doing for us rather than focusing on God and what we are doing to follow Him.

And most importantly, it is a misguided focus. It distracts from the real gospel of Christ. We are busy extracting ourselves from subtle errors buried in seemingly good theology, but too often trading one set of errors for new ones. Turning from a craving for “the ground” and “Christ and the church,” and replacing it with “Christian Nation.” In other words, get rid of one emphasis not actually found in scripture and replace it with another no more fundamental to the meaning and thrust of scripture. If the thrust is off, no matter how sound some parts of the call may be — praying and repenting — it is subservient to a misdirection of allegiance.

Consecrated to His purposes? America was forever consecrated to its own purposes. They set about to be more tolerant and righteous with all of their inhabitants, unlike the places they left which required allegiance to one sect of religion over all others. But their purpose was to be freer to pursue their dreams without government interference.

When he says that we still invoke his name, but it becomes hollow, how is it that we think it was ever more solid? Just because we want it to be so?

I was right. We do need to repent. We Christians. It is irrelevant that we are Americans. Nothing has changed. Christians continue to need to repent. Pointing to some special status of the nation is just a distraction. It is most definitely not “scriptural.”

By the way. We didn’t ban God from the public square. From its schools. The collection of people who are the nation, and who are not, in majority, Christian, did it. The nation was never more than a relatively just kingdom of the world.

I let the thing run some in the background for a while. I got to about 14 minutes. That is enough. This stuff is completely un-Christian. It is appealing to trite, man-centric thinking.

And guess what. We all learned how to be man-centric in the LRC. We may have left that place. We may even curse its existence. But we still declare that we are the center of the universe. We have now exchanged the LRC as the core of that center for America. Both are false. Both are idols.

And as I recall, there was a huge blow-up here some years back due to calling virtually everything an idol. And if there is an idol on display in this “house,” it is the “Christian Nation.” Some God-blessed overlay on the status of a political enterprise run by a majority of unbelievers.

If there was ever an argument for taking Bibles out of the hands of the average Christian, this is one of the best. “Me and my Bible” is one of the worst things to happen to the spiritual condition of good Christians everywhere.

I am not saying that we should not read our Bibles. But we need to have a focus that is not based on whatever crazy teacher comes along selling something. Ground, a me-centric religion, a me-centric nation, or whatever. Read the gospels and the epistles again and tell me that you really think that the transition from the Israel-centered religion to one of inclusion of all people somehow turns into a “Christian Nation.” It just isn’t there. The only way to find that kind of theology is to join those guys from a few years ago that declared that if they wrote it, it was scripture.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

... if there is an idol on display in this “house,” it is the “Christian Nation.” Some God-blessed overlay on the status of a political enterprise run by a majority of unbelievers.

I agree with this assessment, in an absolutist sense (being compared to the perfection of God in Christ) but relatively speaking, the founding of this nation and its establishment for 200+ years being dominated by the "Protestant ethic" was arguably fortuitous. The founding of the American colonies and the establishment of the political United States, when compared with elsewhere, both then and hence, was indeed aligned with God's will manifested in Christ Jesus.

That doesn't make America a "Christian Nation." But it sure beats the Ottoman Empire, the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere (look that one up), and the Thousand-Year Reich.

Regarding the founders. Yes, they had imperfections. But compared to rulers and founders of political enterprises elsewhere, both at those times and even after, they hold up pretty well. When George Washington stepped down from office after 8 years, it was unprecedented.

Lastly, on a balancing note, what I learned most from reading about the founders is that as soon as they stopped fighting the British they started fighting amongst themselves. The amount of vitriol these former Revolutionary allies poured upon each other as they established the first political parties is quite sobering. So I don't idolize them. Nonetheless, I am thankful, and do I pray for those currently in positions of authority. Surely they need our prayers, and God wants our prayers.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

America was settled by Pilgrims - Pilgrims who paid a tremendous price to follow their God out of England, to escape a tyrant King who claimed to rule by Divine Right. The price they paid to settle your nation was absolutely horrendous, but they did it for Christ and His Church.

I think we need to fill in a few large gaps. The Pilgrims did not come to settle the nation and neither were they trying to escape a tyrant king. The first settlement of the British colonies was in Jamestown, VA in 1607 by a group of entrepreneurs who were given a charter from King James 1 and they named the settlement after the king. And this was the same King James that had commissioned the King James version of the Bible to be translated.

The second settlement was in 1620 in Plymouth, MA these settlers were part of a Protestant reformation movement in England called the Separatists They felt that the Church of England was not reforming fast enough and wanted to separate from it. But since it was the Church which received favored status by the state/country of England it had power to persecute Dissenters.

Later in 1630 a group of Puritans came over to Boston.

Once these Dissenters had power in MA they became the persecutors of those who dissented from them e.g. the Quakers several of whom they hung for their religious beliefs.

So let's be clear: Christians were persecuting Christians in England so those being persecuted left and when given the opportunity in the new colony in turn persecuted Christians. The persecutees became the persecutors once they had the power to do so.

But none of this had anything to do with starting a nation. They considered themselves as loyal subjects to Britain and the Crown. It wasn't until 169 years later (from Jamestown being established) that independence was declared. During the 169 years England had over 10 kings. The king at the time of the Revolution was George III and their initial complaint was that as British subjects they should have representation in the British Parliament - no taxation without representation. It was about economics. Nothing to do with religion.

About the divine right of kings: an argument could be made that this idea is soundly based in the NT where we are taught to obey kings. Even Jesus said "pay unto Caesar". (An argument made in Europe for 1500+ years.) And that the rebellion of the colonies was against the NT teaching and furthermore the founders replaced it with democracy which has its roots in pagan Greece.

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

...they committed their children, their lives, and their testimony to the name of Jesus Christ. They ensured that every person in America received a Bible, and was educated about it. They committed themselves to prayer and fasting to seek His will...

When did they do this? Here are the words from the Treaty of Tripoli written in 1796 and signed by John Adams when he was President: "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”

Certainly the founders were informed by the Judeo-Christian tradition along with Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment. But the idea that they set up a Christian nation founded on the Christian religion is simply not true. If anything England at the time was a so called Christian nation.

[OBW]

I will be among the first to agree that America is among the greatest nations ever to exist. And the fact that there is a Judeo-Christian philosophy underpinning it and driving its basic ethos is part of the reason for that.

But no matter how far we try to take the Christian underpinnings, it is a secular nation. Everything in the little speech that guy gave was premised upon there being some contract between God and man concerning America that granted it blessing.

There is no such contract. This nation is what it is based upon the strength and will of rational people to choose good over evil.

The ongoing attempts by so many to recast it as some "walk through the carcass with God" experience just tugs at people's heart strings. It sounds so nice. Especially nice to have such a favored place before God. (Sound familiar? Just like we thought we had in the LRC.) And they are so sincere about it. So it must be right. It just feels right. That is how we get these crazy ideas. Someone feels it must be so and they play our emotions. And we dance. They may have good intentions, but the road to . . . .

It is an equivalent of discussing the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. It is a complete distraction from the very purposes of scripture and the righteousness of God. And even, as Paul might have said, if it gets people to repent, the question will become "from what are they repenting?" Will it be from their own failures, errors, misdeeds, etc.? Or will it be for the nation's acceptance of abortion, gay marriage, etc.? Will it be for the nation pushing prayer out of schools, the ten commandments out of government buildings, or nativity scenes out of public parks?

No matter how you phrase it, for me to repent that America has "gone astray" is a joke. It has not gone astray. It is composed of people who were born astray. Everyone one is responsible only for themselves. They can't repent for others just like you can't buy people out of purgatory. And if we are not the ones aborting babies and performing marriage ceremonies for gays, then how do we repent for it?

It is a misguided distraction. It is similar to a malaise that has taken hold of the country in which no one is responsible for themselves and instead we all carry on with the sense of angst for the fact that someone else chose poorly and now faces jail or some other consequence. Blame their environment. Blame the schools. But never allow them to face the consequences. Don't mark their school papers with red because it is distressing.

So now we should add on to repent on behalf of others. Don't we have enough repentance to do for ourselves? If we think otherwise, then we are seriously mistaken.

I listened to the nonsense that the guy spoke. You can listen to me. I don't claim that my stance is "biblical" or that there are 9 harbingers out giving a warning. But that guy did.

[Thankful Jane]

One of the reasons I stopped posting on this forum was because of straw man arguments. These are fruitless and exhausting and I have no interest in participating in them. As one who always has to revisit the meaning of such terms as "straw man" that are used in argumentation, I'm offering here what Wikipedia says (for others like me who forget or don't know):


The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself.

I (speaking as the person who started this thread) never said (or thought) that I believed we were a “Christian nation” that was blessed and had lost its way and needed to get back to where it was. I also never said (nor thought) many other things that have been argued against (by Alwayslearning and OBW). I did not hear a “Christian nation’ message from Cahn. Clearly, Alwayslearning and OBW did, from what they heard (or partially heard). In my opinion, they do him a disservice by not properly representing his actual message in its entirety and instead presenting a distortion of it.


In the opening post, I didn’t try to repeat or analyze what Cahn said. I simply said it greatly affected me. I didn’t explain why it did. I thought I should just let his message speak for itself, as I still do, so I posted a link. Because of all the subsequent posts stating what Cahn was saying (as if it was fact), I will now say, in summary, what I heard. I heard a voice of warning, of God calling people (His people, mainly) to repent. I heard a voice of one crying in the wilderness--make straight the way of the Lord. I also heard the name of Jesus lifted high by a Jewish brother. I also realized there is a very real possibility that God is speaking through signs, such as some Cahn described. Some heard similarly. Others didn't hear this at all. Some couldn't even finish listening to him. So, I say let each man be persuaded in his own mind.

As for civil governments and God, I take my view of them from Paul:

I Tim. [2:1] I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; [2] for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. [3] This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.


Paul said it is “good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior” that those in authority in civil governments should provide/maintain an environment where people can live tranquilly in all godliness and gravity because God would have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (which implies people could be free to speak the truth of the gospel.)

Our founding fathers set up a government that afforded people the opportunity to lead such godly lives. The government they formed also provided an environment which allowed people the freedom to speak and hear and come to the knowledge of the truth. (I would consider that fact to be a blessing.) A large majority of the founders valued the teachings of the Bible and of Christ and were influenced by them in shaping the civil government they established, with its Constitution. They spoke openly about God and His relationship to man. They prayed openly concerning their hope and intent for the new government. (Isn’t it possible that such a government came into being as God’s answer to the many prayers of foregone believers that were in line with Paul’s admonition in I Tim 2:1-3?)

Today, these founding values and principles, those who espouse them, and even God Himself are under open verbal and legislative attack. We are in danger of losing in a big way (from many different fronts) what Paul told us to pray for regarding civil government, and what I personally believe God gave us in answer to such prayers. So, we best be praying fervently, not that we can have some kind of perfect, blessed, government or “Christian nation,” but that we can have a government that allows us to live tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and gravity; that we can continue to have an environment where we can preach the gospel freely and men can be saved by the One who wants all men to be saved.

Time is short.

Thankful Jane

[aron]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I think we need to fill in a few large gaps.

Once these Dissenters had power in MA they became the persecutors of those who dissented from them e.g. the Quakers several of whom they hung for their religious beliefs.

So let's be clear: Christians were persecuting Christians in England so those being persecuted left and when given the opportunity in the new colony in turn persecuted Christians. The persecutees became the persecutors once they had the power to do so.

alwayslearning,

We have all read a few books and/or seen a few YouTube videos. Thus we all have opinions. Our opinions are partly informed, but partly enclose gaps, as you mention. My opinion usually tends along your lines presented here, noting the unchristian behavior clearly exhibited by those (such as the Pilgrims/Puritans) who tried to present the world with "a city on a hill" of model Christian society.

But, speaking of gaps: look at the alternative. Elsewhere, at the same time, ecclesiastical/political powers in other societies were randomly choosing people for human sacrifice to make the gods happy so that it would rain. And so forth. The society established by the Pilgrims, while quite imperfect, was arguably more Christ-oriented and Christ-like than many, if not most, of their peers. There was more peace, more justice, more mercy, more longsuffering. In fact, I would go so far as to say that they were more Christian (fair, just, respectful, honest, tolerant) than many societies today!

So if you compare them to Christ; yes, you'll be bitterly disappointed. But if you compare them to the many alternatives, both in their day, and even up to 500 years later, they don't look quite so bad. Something to keep in mind. Remember that God judges each according to what they have been given.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

One of the reasons I stopped posting on this forum was because of straw man arguments...I (speaking as the person who started this thread) never said (or thought) that I believed we were a “Christian nation” that was blessed and had lost its way and needed to get back to where it was. I also never said (nor thought) many other things that have been argued against (by Alwayslearning and OBW). I did not hear a “Christian nation’ message from Cahn. Clearly, Alwayslearning and OBW did, from what they heard (or partially heard). In my opinion, they do him a disservice by not properly representing his actual message in its entirety and instead presenting a distortion of it.

I think your argument about straw man arguments is a straw man argument!

Here is what my response was to Cahn's talk:

"I was able to listen to his entire talk this morning. I don't think his passion can be disputed however I disagree with his underlying premise i.e. America was once a blessed nation because it was founded on eternal and heavenly principles and consecrated to God/Jesus and is losing (or has lost) that blessing under God's judgment for our sinful ways. And that the Twin Tower attack and more recent economic turn down are signs of this judgment. I think this is a very selective view of American history..."

In the post (#18) after mine NeitherFirstnorLast introduced the idea that America was a Christian nation and along the way in this thread others have expressed support for this view. I have expressed disagreement with this view as has OBW - which I think we're allowed to do. That's all - people in an open forum chit chatting back and forth.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

As for civil governments and God, I take my view of them from Paul:

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I Tim. [2:1] I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; [2] for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. [3] This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

This was written when the pagan Roman Caesers ruled and actively persecuted Christians unto death and yet Paul said to pray for this government not start a Revolution. It could be argued that the Founding Fathers should have followed Paul's admonishment and pray for King George III since he was not interfering in their practice of religion in the colonies. (The colonists were interfering with each other in their practice of religion.) But the Founders were interested in economics and that was the impetus for the Revolution.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

A large majority of the founders valued the teachings of the Bible and of Christ and were influenced by them in shaping the civil government they established, with its Constitution.

Yes the Judeo-Christian tradition did influence the Founding Fathers. Has anybody on this forum denied this? They were also influenced by the Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment traditions and I have already listed some of the items that came from these traditions.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Today, these founding values and principles, those who espouse them, and even God Himself are under open verbal and legislative attack. We are in danger of losing in a big way (from many different fronts) what Paul told us to pray for regarding civil government, and what I personally believe God gave us in answer to such prayers.

Personally I think of most people on earth Christian's in America are free to live tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and gravity and I don't see this changing in the foreseeable future. More or less us Christians here are like spoiled brats whining about how "Caesar" slighted us. We should go to China to see what it is like to really live under an oppressive government. (And yet somehow the church is thriving there!)

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

But, speaking of gaps: look at the alternative. Elsewhere, at the same time, ecclesiastical/political powers in other societies were randomly choosing people for human sacrifice to make the gods happy so that it would rain. And so forth. The society established by the Pilgrims, while quite imperfect, was arguably more Christ-oriented and Christ-like than many, if not most, of their peers.

If we are talking about degrees and the whole world then of course there is always somewhere better or worse. But in the context of the Pilgrims their knowledge base at the time was what was going on in England and to a lesser degree the Continent and especially the Netherlands. So we are really talking about a "Christian" context. They left a "Christianized" country. England was a country completely engrossed in Christianity. They were not offering human sacrifices to make the gods happy, etc. Even the coronation of their kings and queens was done (and still is) in a church. The King James version of the Bible was being translated. The name of Christ was completely interwoven into their political process and national narrative.

So what was the problem? The state/country favored a certain church i.e. the Church of England and it gave the clergy of this church a lot of power and they used this power to persecute dissenters i.e. other Christians who disagreed with them. Once the Pilgrims got to MA they did the very same thing. Was MA more "Christian" than England. Not really they were just a different brand. Was MA more Christian than tribes offering children as sacrifices to their gods in central Africa? Of course!

[OBW]

Jane,

I will agree that we, the people of God, need to repent. We always do. And we mostly don't want to. There was probably a lot you could say that would have been clearer, but you tied your thoughts to Cahn which probably did not truly express your thoughts.

In a different context (both secular and religious) I have this problem. I hold to a number of positions that a lot of others do as well. Positions such as on abortion, homosexuality, immigration reform, racial issues, and on and on. What I find most unsettling is that people who would stand up as spokespersons for many of those positions do not hold them in the same way. They are smug, nasty, belligerent, and even downright hateful. And I'm not just talking about the politicians trying to win favor with the "right" but also the leaders of so-called Christian organizations. And that means that if I open my mouth to talk about one of those positions, I get branded as "on of those kooks" rather than considered in a rational way.

Whether it is Rush Limbaugh, or the latest leader of some Christian coalition, they are too prone to demeaning and demanding rather than arguing positions.

And, unfortunately, you had something you wanted to say (that is probably very important). But you let someone who is pushing a ridiculous position say it for you. And as a result, you didn't say what you thought you were. You said what he said. You said all those things about "Christian Nation." You may not have intended it. But you did. And the only part of what he said that you really seem to have been aligned with is a need to repent.

And I will agree with that more than many would think. In fact, we need it so much because our typical worship has only a slight dusting of repentance. While I still would not want to be a regular participant in a church that is excessively liturgical, there is something about a liturgy that reserves time to stop thinking about what God as done for me, and how glorious everything is and think about how I do not deserve any of it. Even after doing this day after day, week after week, year after year, I still need to repent regularly. And so I do. A "worship service" could bookend the time with singing or reading, but the song will not be "I'm trading my sorrows," but "Lord have mercy on me." The reading will not be from the Psalms of praise, but of contrition. "Have mercy on me, Oh God, according to your steadfast love."

Sometime we just don't have the way to express what we want to say. Find a better stand-in than Cahn. It's like letting Rush Limbaugh give the altar call. "You sorry sinners better repent because you don't even deserve to stay in the country and vote if you don't." (That was hyperbolic but kind of typical of things he has said in pushing his agenda. And Cahn, Jewish or not, has become deluded with a false god — the United States of America.)

Despite my seeming harshness in posting, I am moved to repent. Repent that I too often say and do things that are not charitable to my "neighbor." And in this day and age, virtually everyone is your neighbor. That I want desperately to be righteous, just, and loving even with those that I would call sinners. And since I don't like people loving me in harsh ways, I try not to substitute so-called "tough love" for love since I would not love myself in that way. And since I generally fail at that, I get to repent a lot. We shouldn't need a revival to do it. It should be part of daily, or at least weekly life. Like those mooing cows that follow a liturgy. Those people that we learned to despise so strongly. Maybe they are more likely to be the "neighbor" in the story about the good Samaritan than any of the rest of us are.

That sets me to considering my need for repentance much more than someone laying the blame for 9/11 and so many more "ills" in our society at our feet for lack of repentance. Rain falls on the just and the unjust. Job did not "deserve" what he got. But he got it anyway.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

What godly roots and what did the country look like when it was so called "blessed"?

Blessings unrelated to “Faith”
1. Gen 39:5 The Lord blessed the Egyptian’s house for Joseph’s sake
a. The Egyptians in this house were not “sinless” nor is there even a hint that they were less sinful, pagan or fleshly as any other Egyptians. They were blessed not for their sake but for Joseph’s.
2. Ps 41:1 Blessed is he that considereth the poor
a. Taking care of the poor is a basis for receiving God’s blessing. It has nothing to do with being “a Christian country”.
3. Ps 106:3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
a. Many feel that the U.S. constitution is one of the best examples worldwide of laws that are righteous. As a result this constitution is the basis for God’s blessing.
4. Matt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit.
a. One thing that has been striking about the US since it’s inception is that it is a place for immigrants to flee to. This is a country that up to this point has opened its arms to the “poor in spirit” those that lacked. This also is a basis for receiving God’s blessing.
5. Gen 12:3 I will bless them that bless thee
a. The US has blessed Israel and it is only reasonable to think that God has blessed the US in return according to His word.
6. Matt 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn
a. You mentioned our experience with slavery. You failed to mention that many mourned that experience, this has led to the Gettysburg address, civil rights movement, Brown vs. Board of Education, and a Black president. Now you could argue that those who were descended from the slaves have not been blessed, but I disagree.
7. Gen 26:4 In thy seed shall all the nations of the Earth be blessed
a. The Jews have been a blessing to this nation. Our leadership in science since WWII is due to Jews fleeing Europe.
8. Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek
a. Many of those who immigrated to this country were “meek”. The history is very clear that many that came through Randall’s Island were “meek” only to later inherit the Earth.
9. Matt 11:6 Blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in Me.
a. The question is not whether or not this country is “Christian” but rather are they “offended” in Christ. Freedom of religion is a strong statement that we, as a nation, are not offended in Christ, and this is the basis for God’s blessing.
10. Matt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness
a. For example, the Civil rights movement in this country. The rights we give every citizen are a basis for everyone to stand for righteousness and this also is a basis for God’s blessing.
11. Matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful
a. Our treatment of the vanquished powers after WWII was merciful and was the basis for God’s blessing.
12. Matt 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God
a. Teddy Roosevelt is one excellent example that comes to mind. This country has had its fair share of peacemakers and this also is the basis for God’s blessing.
13. Pro 22:9 He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed
a. Our being the “bread basket” for the world is an example of this country having an bountiful eye and the basis for God’s blessing. Likewise, the Gates foundation is another example.
14. Matt 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake
a. I think it is fair to say that this country acts as a haven for those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, and this also becomes a basis for God’s blessing.
15. Luke 14:14 and thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee
a. The movie “the pursuit of Happyness” is an example of how this country blesses those who are unable to repay and this in turn becomes the basis for God’s blessing.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Escapedfromthecurse

Blessings unrelated to “Faith”...

I'm not sure how your post relates to this thread. I have been addressing the underlying premise of Cahn's position that at one time we were blessed but we will lose that blessing (or have lost it) and come under judgment if we do not turn back to God as a nation. (An act of faith I would suggest.)

I never said that America is a Christian nation. It's a secular nation purposely designed as such by the Founders. And their influences were the Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment traditions. BTW I'm very comfortable with this. I'm glad they set the nation up this way under these influences. There are only 5 countries I would ever want to live in and America is on the top of the list!

The history of America, like all history, has good and bad interwoven together simultaneously running along the time line. We don't have to hide the bad parts and try to rationalize away with some Christian theory why the bad doesn't matter. It is what it is. The history of America is not "God's blessing poured out card blanche upon her from the beginning and we better watch it or we'll lose it." It's about a bunch of quite smart but seriously flawed guys trying to figure out a way to start a country and each generation taking it from there, making adjustments, making improvements, making mistakes, etc. along the way.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I'm not sure how your post relates to this thread. I have been addressing the underlying premise of Cahn's position that at one time we were blessed but we will lose that blessing (or have lost it) and come under judgment if we do not turn back to God as a nation. (An act of faith I would suggest.)

Sorry if the connection wasn't clear, I thought it would be self evident.

The underlying premise is that at one time this country was blessed. I have provided 15 verse references that provide a basis for that. Unless you wish to dispute any one of them then it appears we are in agreement that these 15 verse references do apply to the history of this country and since God is faithful to His word they provide a basis for God's blessing.

I did not listen to Cahn's message and didn't see that it was necessary to do so for this discussion, even though it was referenced.

The point I am making is that on any one of these points we may have previously received a blessing, yet due to our current stance we could lose that blessing. For example, a number of points refer to the blessing we have received from immigrants, yet the discussion of fencing our borders and other discussions do suggest that what was once characteristic of this country may not be so much longer.

Also I mentioned how God blesses "he that has a bountiful eye" yet I used the Gates foundation rather than the US govt because our largess has been cut back drastically in the last few years.

Like all repentance, examine yourself. Perhaps we were blessed for "Joseph's sake" but since throwing him in jail that may no longer apply. Perhaps we should repent of throwing innocent men in jail? This country used to be known for our generosity to the poor. This is not so much the case anymore. Perhaps we should repent for that.

Does that help you understand the connection?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Escapedthecurse

I did not listen to Cahn's message and didn't see that it was necessary to do so for this discussion, even though it was referenced.

Cahn's message was not merely referenced it is the highlight and point of this thread. So I recommend you listen to his talk (as was recommended to me on this thread) and decide whether you agree with it or not. Or which parts you agree with and which parts you don't. Then we can have an informed discussion about it.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I'm not sure how your post relates to this thread. I have been addressing the underlying premise of Cahn's position that at one time we were blessed but we will lose that blessing (or have lost it) and come under judgment if we do not turn back to God as a nation. (An act of faith I would suggest.)

I never said that America is a Christian nation. It's a secular nation purposely designed as such by the Founders. And their influences were the Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment traditions. BTW I'm very comfortable with this. I'm glad they set the nation up this way under these influences. There are only 5 countries I would ever want to live in and America is on the top of the list!

The history of America, like all history, has good and bad interwoven together simultaneously running along the time line. We don't have to hide the bad parts and try to rationalize away with some Christian theory why the bad doesn't matter. It is what it is. The history of America is not "God's blessing poured out card blanche upon her from the beginning and we better watch it or we'll lose it." It's about a bunch of quite smart but seriously flawed guys trying to figure out a way to start a country and each generation taking it from there, making adjustments, making improvements, making mistakes, etc. along the way.

This is from an email yesterday from Angelica Fazio. This is what I meant about what God may be looking at while you are not. I wonder what your thoughts are on her points about a blessed nation.

I agree with Tom (no forum member) and Jane about the relevance of Cahn's message. As far as the book, "The Harbinger," I purchased it and read it when it first came out. I definitely agree that Cahn is on to something regarding God's judgment of America. Before the book was in print, there was an email going around----apparently initiated by Cahn or someone close to him. To me, that email was even more impressive than the book. It wasn't couched in fictional context, and it actually showed photos of them laying the huge "quarried rock" and planting the fir tree where the sycamore had fallen, etc. It was a bit breathtaking! I have recently searched for that link and been unable to find it. I suppose Cahn had it removed to boost sales of the book. I don't know.

I'm not certain what Tom said about Obama's re-election; however, I suspect his sentiments resemble mine---that short of divine, miraculous intervention, Obama's reelection spells the end of America as we have known it. America as we had known it is already history by now. And this is just the beginning.

I would have posted, but I couldn't find a way to register. I don't have a lot of time to invest in this. However, I agree a whole lot with Carol Garza's comments on the blog. Obviously, Abraham Lincoln thought we (America) had "forgotten God" and turned away from our underpinnings in Him---even at the time Lincoln served. If we want to see the heart of the early patriots, we should look at their songs and what it was that inspired them. "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" was just that: it stated what the heart was of those who were willing to risk their lives to establish this nation. There are fewer more inspirational Christian hymns---as far as fighting for Christ's cause is concerned. (Their doctrine didn't coincide with what the three of us believe. The author was obviously amillenial---and thought they were going to usher in Christ's return and reign through their military victory on earth. "As He (Christ) died to make men holy, let us live to make men free, while God is marching on." etc.

The war cry in the revolutionary was "No king but Jesus!" The second stanza of "My Country 'Tis of Thee" actually is a declaration of them reversing Israel's move of rejecting God for an earthly king. It goes, "Our father's God, to Thee---Author of Liberty--to Thee we sing. Long may our land be bright with freedom's holy light. Protect us by Thy might, great God, OUR KING!" The colonists honestly thought they were reversing the error of Israel of old. That was their position. In addition, the inscription on the "Liberty Bell": "Proclaim liberty throughout the land" was taken from Leviticus 25 and 27 regarding the jubilee of the children of Israel in their 70th year. The footprints of the Christian faith in our governmental documents and historic sites are too numerous to mention. Here's a brief listing of them: http://www.allabouthistory.org/spiri...uments-faq.htm

Sinners, deceived (possessing slaves but declaring equality of all men), and with doctrinal error----just like the rest of us. However, the concept of God, Christ, and the Bible ranked high in their thoughts. Even those deists could quote Scripture and believed it more than most of our clergy today. The authority of the Word of God was unquestioned. "The Old Deluder Satan Act" was the bases for establishing public education. It stated that, since our laws were based upon the Bible, it was essential for men to be able to read so that they could read their Bibles and keep the magistrates in line. Compare that to our attitude today. I believe it was Robert Charles Winthrop, an 1850 politician, who said we would be ruled "either by the Bible or the bayonet."

As far as contributing to the debate, I'm not sure what I could add. Like Tom, I don't have a lot of time to invest in this sort of thing. I continue to be 125% employed (hence, the amount of time it's taken me to get back to you regarding your email). I'd like to support Cahn's speaking/book in any way possible.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Indiana

I'm not certain what Tom said about Obama's re-election; however, I suspect his sentiments resemble mine---that short of divine, miraculous intervention, Obama's reelection spells the end of America as we have known it.

And what, pray tell, would the election of a Mormon President spell? A return to traditional Christian values?

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Cahn's message was not merely referenced it is the highlight and point of this thread. So I recommend you listen to his talk (as was recommended to me on this thread) and decide whether you agree with it or not. Or which parts you agree with and which parts you don't. Then we can have an informed discussion about it.

Yes, it was the purpose for the thread. However, this discussion is based on Paul Cox's post#13 "Those things aside, we can't deny that the Lord causes certain kings to rise and others to fall. This in an indisputable fact. If a nation, such as England or the United States of America, has been so widely used to spread the gospel, because they opened their hearts to God in their founding principles, then certainly the Lord will deal with them in a disciplinary way when they wander from those principles."

And for this discussion I see no reason to reference Cahn. I think it was OBW that said that having someone else speak for you is problematic.

The discussion as I see it is if the US is "blessed by God" and if the US is now experiencing "God's discipline". This was then led into the ditch by the distortion of that discussion into whether the US is a "Christian" nation, which was then characterized as a "straw man" argument which I would only partly agree with. Many confuse the two, saying the US is blessed by God can be confused with thinking the US is a "Christian" nation. Hence my post.

[aron]

It is an interesting process to evaluate the moral character, or turpitude, of the founding fathers, or the original Pilgrims, either individually or en masse. Certainly one could make a case for either extreme, or somewhere in between.

Let me turn the question: what would some reader think, if this forum's record were preserved, upon reading these posts 500 years hence? Would they be impressed with the "godly character" evinced by the writers here? How much "bearing one another with love" do we display, versus "scoring debating points"? How much "thinking one another more excellent than oneself" versus "I am right and you are not"?

For that matter, what do people think, today? Obviously we don't know because readers read and writers write. We only know what the forum writers think. But if we measure Alexander Hamilton's moral failings, or Cotton Mather's religious dogmatism, perhaps by the same measuring stick we look like a nest of rattlesnakes who only take time off from hurling virtual rocks at Lee and the Blendeds to throw them at one another.

And I speak for myself here. I may be the most self-righteous, closed-minded, self-important, judgmental person of all. When Jesus said to take the last seat at the banquet table, He really exposed my own character. Every time I open my mouth, or write, just where am I trying to place myself, at the banquet table? I would really feel ashamed if I made a big deal about someone else's failures, only to eventually find them sitting higher up than I.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Indiana

This is from an email yesterday from Angelica Fazio.

Indiana have YOU listened to Cahn's talk and if so what are YOUR thoughts on it?

[OBW]

This particular thread has two lines running side-by-side. One is what Jane intended, and that is a call to repentance. As I implied in my last post, I think it would have been better for her to give her own call for repentance. Make her own statements concerning what it is that we need to repent of.

The other is the Christian Nation rhetoric introduced by the linked video.

And since that was the only solid thing at the beginning, it is what I responded to. And I did so with a bit (??) of heat. To the extent that I seemed to be attacking Jane or anyone else, I repent of it. To the extent that I actually did attack, I repent. My tone was quite harsh at times. For that, I repent.

Now, I think it is worthwhile to consider how we view ourselves as Christians in this country. The nation did begin with honest men who claimed to believe in God in some form or fashion. Some were clearly Christian and others not so clear.

But no matter who they were, we are living in 2013 in the country they founded. It was never something to which God gave special blessing. Rather, it was always, and still is, a country of people of moral conviction that stand ready to do the "right thing" as far as they see it. We argue about what the "right thing" is all the time. Should it have included going to war in Afghanistan and Iraq or not. Should it as a secular government allow homosexuals to live in peace like everyone else — and even join in civil unions (contracts) that society calls marriage? I have an opinion that I am not going to express. It is irrelevant. It is a civil matter, not a religious matter.

And at this particular time, so many now "march" under the banner of the cross to demand their say on how the secular government should rule. We would quickly disavow those among us who bomb abortion clinics in the name of God. But we all but scream near obscenities at the people who work at them.

Then we wonder why the rest of society is not happy with us. That we find ourselves being shunned in the marketplace of opinion.

Someone comes along and tells us we need to repent. For what? For our behavior toward our fellow man when we shout those obscenities? No. For being a nation that allows abortions.

And once again, we set ourselves up as better and more holy, even demanding that everyone else measure up right now, with or without believing in God.

And we wonder why the world hates us. Why they think we are bigoted. Maybe we really are. We may not (hopefully not) be bigoted based on race. But we are bigoted based on so many things. Many even are certain the God votes Republican.

I do not want there to be another abortion. I would that everyone who engages in the homosexual lifestyle would see it through God's eyes and change. But it is not mine to repent for.

But there is much for each of us to repent for daily. Better to change our pattern of repentance to daily than some revival. Revivals generally push people way to one extreme where they cannot sustain things and then, rather than falling back to a "normal" condition, they revert to the other extreme. We wear out.

But it is right that we mostly have not been repenting. We are far from worn out on it. We like glory and blessing and joy. We want to be spiritual.

Blessed are the poor in spirit.

We want to make an impact.

Blessed are the meek.

We want everyone else around us to straighten up.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. (Not for others — for ourselves.)

Repent today. Repent that you were slothful at work. Repent that you get so aggravated at those jerks on the road. Repent that you think the other people on the road are jerks. Repent that you spoke harshly to a coworker or family member (and repent to them as well). Repent that you try to avoid any contact with that gay coworker. And that your constant thoughts are how to get the chance to get him straight about homosexuality and get him to God. (God's kindness leads us to repentance. Maybe God's kindness to them is through us.) Say in English what the Catholics and others do in Latin: "kyrie eleison" Lord have mercy. We need mercy constantly.

(I know we were told that mercy was strictly Old Testament. That it is too low for the best Christians. But mercy is not so rare in the New Testament, being found 55 times in a currently popular translation. 11 times in Romans. Only 21 in the gospels, so not just before the crucifixion.)

Then pray. Pray for guidance in all you do. Pray for peace on the road. Pray for harmony in the workplace. Pray for diligence to do what you should do at any particular time. Pray for the peace of the nation, for its leaders and even for its enemies. Pray for your daily needs. Pray for forgiveness and pray to be able to forgive others. Pray to hold up under temptation.

To rename a movie: Repent. Pray. Love.

Then live a life that is Jesus. That dines with sinners rather than shouting at them. That helps even the unclean Roman centurion. That is honest in the marketplace. That is hospitable with the drivers around you.

And I confess that much of the need for repentance in all of these areas is mine. If it is also yours, that is your decision. But I'm pretty sure that "you" are like me. Great intentions. Talk a good talk. Not so good at the walk.

Lord have mercy on us. May our walk match our talk. May we walk worthy of your Name. May we walk as the Spirit would walk in/with us.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Escapedthecurse

And for this discussion I see no reason to reference Cahn. I think it was OBW that said that having someone else speak for you is problematic.

This thread is a discussion about Cahn's talk and it is what I am addressing. Nobody and especially me are asking you to have Cahn speak for you. On the contrary the reasonable request is being made that you listen to what he has to say and let us know what you think about it like the rest of us are doing. After that we can have an informed discussion about it.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

And what, pray tell, would the election of a Mormon President spell? A return to traditional Christian values?

My comment will be totally irrevelent (or not?) to the thread but I can't resist addressing this question.

Joseph Smith predicted the U.S. Constitution would one day "hang like a thread" and would be saved by the efforts of the white horse.

To many, Mitt Romney fit the bill. The LDS would have had a hey day had Romney been elected!! But it is contrary to the prophesy of the Word telling us (in a nutshell) the false prophet will head the one one world religion.

[ IMHO, I am persuaded the false prophet will rise from the RCC, the last pope, "Petreus Romano" (Peter the Roman --MAYBE????--) uniting the world religions: Islam, Hinduism, Buddhists, New Agers, secular Christians ranging from Catholocism to Protestantism.]

On the basis of the Mormon "white horse prophesy", some have speculated Mormons expect the U.S. To eventually become a theocracy dominated by the LDS church.

I love that the thread of Gold on the topic at hand is:
God is speaking to us! Repent!! He may have used Jonathan Cahn's book -the Harbinger- which means "warning" through Jane but nonetheless, our Lord IS speaking to us because Time is short!!

Many here have been reflecting on Christ's message: repent and Love (God and your neighbor).

Just food for thought. :-)
Blessings everyone,

Carol Garza

[OBW]

Interesting assortment of thoughts.

Of course, Joseph Smith's predictions are meaningless.

As for the LDS having a heyday if Romney were elected, I'm not so sure that the religious persuasions of presidents have ever had the effects that people have expected. Many were sure we would be answering to Rome when Kennedy was elected. Many would like to declare Obama to be a Muslim rather than a Christian (social or otherwise), but it really hasn't seemed to cause us to simply pull-out of the wars with those pesky Islamic radicals. If anyone points to the recent announcements, don't forget that he has supported the existing war for 4 years now and this won't be the first time that a withdrawal has been declared. It could once again be followed by some kind of surge.

While the end-times false prophet may arise from the RCC, it won't likely be because the RCC has become so soft on other religions. They may be willing to be nice to other people without regard to their religion, but they really are pretty strong in their Christo-centric positions, no matter how many grievous errors we think they have.

I must agree with the call to repent. But I fear that relying on such a misguided book as Cahn's for the inspiration is an invitation to repent in a misguided way. To repent for some irrelevancies and remain committed to some things that we should repent for.

That still means we need to repent.

And time is always short. Even if the end-times are another 2,000 years away, our time is short. We never know if we will see tomorrow's sunrise, or even our own pillow for tonight's sleep. We may be sleeping with the worms before then. It may be that having the thought that there are clear markers for the end-times as being imminent will help some keep the course. For others, the realization that tomorrow may go on without them is quite enough. Either way, in the grand scheme of things no one reading this forum has more than roughly 70 to 80 years. Most quite a lot less. Some possibly only today.

And maybe none of us have more than 2 or 3 years.

Or even a day.

The reason that I look at it this way is that I should live both as someone expecting to grow old and as someone expecting to meet my maker now. Neither is sufficient alone. Those who only expect to grow old will ignore the present. Those who too strongly expect the eminent end too often abandon sober living in the present in favor of pining for "glory."

And unlike a sort of slogan that I have been hearing lately, I do not believe that we were made for heaven, or "glory" or whatever. I believe we were made for righteous living, bearing the image of God in all that we do. To look away to heaven/glory/the NewJ too much is to abandon your purpose for being created and seek something else. Any other view seems to suggest that God goofed and had to redefine our purpose. "Those pesky humans. They wouldn't bear my image properly on earth, so I will simply invite them to abandon earth and live here." I know that is not exactly what is being said by some. But how do we suppose to be sanctified in this life if we don't actually find our way back to the God-directed righteousness and image bearing that we were created for. I believe that anything else is to try to end-run around God's purpose for us.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Interesting assortment of thoughts.

Of course, Joseph Smith's predictions are meaningless.

As for the LDS having a heyday if Romney were elected, I'm not so sure that the religious persuasions of presidents have ever had the effects that people have expected.

That was mostly tongue in cheek. It could be some Mormons might have thought the white horse prophesy was coming to pass, most probably wouldn't otherwise people like Harry Reid and Romney both Mormons would be on the same page. I did not even know they believed in the return of Jesus until last summer.

While the end-times false prophet may arise from the RCC, it won't likely be because the RCC has become so soft

I think that is exactly why the RCC pope is a viable candidate. Islam and Catholocism have a closer relationship than many people realize. Before Pope John Paul II died, he was photographed kissing the Qu'ron. Mohammed named his daughter Fatima and Mohammed said of his daughter "she has the highest place in heaven after the Virgin Mary." In the Koran the -Blessed Virgin Mary- is mentioned at least 30 times.

And I am not even bringing up the Jesuit branch of the RCC. If anyone is interested, read Father Malachi Martin's works. He worked very closely with several popes in the Vatican. He mysteriously died in 1999.

I must agree with the call to repent. But I fear that relying on such a misguided book as Cahn's for the inspiration is an invitation to repent in a misguided way. To repent for some irrelevancies and remain committed to some things that we should repent for.

That is where I too had some trouble understanding Cahn's line of thinking on repentance. I pray alot for the Holy Spirit to convict me/the church/the world of our sins that we may repent and be a shining Light in this dark world. Sometimes I catch myself calling someone (usually a reckless driver) a stupid idiot. No sooner I say this, I repent and ask the Lord to forgive me for calling them that. They may have acted stupid and idiotic, but no person is stupid or an idiot in God's eyes. Btw, I remember years ago 15-20 years ago, I got cocky with some Mormon missionaries. That evening the Holy Spirit convicted me for the way I spoke to them. A couple of days later, I ran into them and apologized to them. Since then on several occasions that I have conversed with Missionary Mormons, I have prayed with them. I enjoy talking to them. They need the Love of Jesus as does everyone else. I have done my homework. I know what scriptures they use even though they mostly talk about Joseph Smith. (It is a tad worst than hearing an LCr go on & on about brother Lee) Just remember the bible they use is KJ. If you use a different translation they will argue about the unauthorized version. Just a heads up.:-)

I look at it this way is that I should live both as someone expecting to grow old and as someone expecting to meet my maker now.

And that is how we all should live.

Neither is sufficient alone. Those who only expect to grow old will ignore the present. Those who too strongly expect the eminent end too often abandon sober living in the present in favor of pining for "glory."

True. I have been around people who don't want the Lord Jesus to return just yet because they want their bling-blings. Others "just want to get out of here". They are miserable and "want to go home". Others still believe they must "help" God fix this world.

I strive through prayer to walk the talk. I want to be an excellent representative and ambassador of Christ without compromising and without being "holier than thou".

And unlike a sort of slogan that I have been hearing lately, I do not believe that we were made for heaven, or "glory" or whatever. I believe we were made for righteous living, bearing the image of God in all that we do. To look away to heaven/glory/the NewJ too much is to abandon your purpose... I know that is not exactly what is being said by some. But how do we suppose to be sanctified in this life if we don't actually find our way back to the God-directed righteousness and image bearing that we were created for. I believe that anything else is to try to end-run around God's purpose for us.

And that is why we pray, read, study, fellowship, Love, Laugh, sometimes weep, Rejoice, encourage, shine and walk the talk.

Shalom and El-Shaddai's good will towards all men.

Carol Garza

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

All this talk on the other threads about posters being "evasive" has left me feeling convicted. I hate conflict, it really bothers me. I don't like being in disagreement, though I sometimes feel called to make a stand for what I believe is the truth. Let me go further, and confess that when I fail to "convince", I feel like I have personally failed. I feel like I cannot communicate well enough, and because of that I've not only alienated brothers and sisters in Christ, I've also failed the Lord.

Well, that's childish thinking. We all should treat eachother gently and with respect, but we shouldn't be afraid to speak what we believe is the truth in love, ever. With that in mind, I feel I owe you some responses, AlwaysLearning.

First: About King James, the man who contracted the King James translation of the Bible and from whom the Puritans (Pilgrims) fled, you have said...

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

The Pilgrims did not come to settle the nation and neither were they trying to escape a tyrant king. The first settlement of the British colonies was in Jamestown, VA in 1607 by a group of entrepreneurs who were given a charter from King James 1 and they named the settlement after the king. And this was the same King James that had commissioned the King James version of the Bible to be translated.

To this I would offer:

"King James ascended the throne upon the death of his brother, Charles II. Members of Britain's political and religious elite increasingly opposed him for being pro-French and pro-Catholic, and for his designs on becoming an absolute monarch. James is best known for his belief in the Divine Right of Kings. James's time in France had exposed him to the beliefs and ceremonies of Catholicism; he and his wife, Anne, became drawn to that faith. James took Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church in 1668 or 1669, although his conversion was kept secret for some time and he continued to attend Anglican services until 1676." (courtesy of Wikipedia).

Of King James Bible Translation:

"King James did not encourage a translation of the Bible in order to enlighten the common people: his sole intent was to deny them the marginal notes of the Geneva Bible. The marginal notes of the Geneva version were what made it so popular with the common people.

The King James Bible was, and is for all practical purposes, a government publication. There were several reasons for the King James Bible being a government publication. First, King James I of England was a devout believer in the "divine right of kings," a philosophy ingrained in him by his mother, Mary Stuart. Mary Stuart may have been having an affair with her Italian secretary, David Rizzio, at the time she conceived James. There is a better than even chance that James was the product of adultery. Apparently, enough evidence of such conduct on the part of Mary Stuart and David Rizzio existed to cause various Scot nobles, including Mary's own husband, King Henry, to drag David Rizzio from Mary's supper table and execute him. The Scot nobles hacked and slashed at the screaming Rizzio with knives and swords, and then threw him off a balcony to the courtyard below where he landed with a sickening smack. In the phrase of that day, he had been scotched.

Mary did have affairs with other men, such as the Earl of Bothwell. She later tried to execute her husband in a gunpowder explosion that shook all of Edinburgh. King Henry survived the explosion only to be suffocated later that same night. The murderers were never discovered. Mary was eventually beheaded at the order of her cousin, Elizabeth I of England.

To such individuals as James and his mother, Mary, the "divine right of kings" meant that since a king's power came from God, the king then had to answer to no one but God. This lack of responsibility extended to evil kings. The reasoning was that if a king was evil, that was a punishment sent from God. The citizens should then suffer in silence. If a king was good, that was a blessing sent from God.

This is why the Geneva Bible annoyed King James I. The Geneva Bible had marginal notes that simply didn't conform to that point of view. Those marginal notes had been, to a great extent, placed in the Geneva Bible by the leaders of the Reformation, including John Knox and John Calvin. Knox and Calvin could not and cannot be dismissed lightly or their opinions passed off to the public as the mere ditherings of dissidents.

First, notes such as, "When tyrants cannot prevail by craft they burst forth into open rage" (Note i, Exodus 1:22) really bothered King James.
Second, religion in James' time was not what it is today. In that era religion was controlled by the government. If someone lived in Spain at the time, he had three religious "choices:"

1.Roman Catholicism
2.Silence
3.The Inquisition

The third "option" was reserved for "heretics," or people who didn't think the way the government wanted them to. To governments of that era heresy and treason were synonymous. An Englishman had three choices:
1.The Anglican Church
2.Silence
3.The rack, burning at the stake, being drawn and quartered, or some other form of persuasion. " (courtesy of www.gospelassemblyfree.com)



Of the Pilgrims, I would offer you this (courtesy of http://www.crossroad.to/Excerpts/chr...s/pilgrims.htm)

1596: "The term 'Pilgrims', was first used... in the 'Confession of Faith' they adopted and, in later references, to their own idea of life on earth as a pilgrimage towards heavenly bliss."

1590s: Committed Christians with access to Bibles began to question the old Catholic traditions which still influenced the new Protestant churches in England. These "Puritans" longed to see a more "pure" church, freed from the bureaucratic forms that clouded the truth of the gospel. They wanted to continue the "reformation" of the church, bringing it into line with Biblical guidelines.
Some of these Puritans, called "Pilgrims" or "Separatist" had little hope that the government controlled church could be reformed. They wanted to separate themselves completely from the official (Anglican) Church of England. But that was against the law. So when they decided to start new congregations and live by God's Word, they were persecuted.

Early 1600s:
One of the Separatist congregation was led by William Brewster in the village of Scrooby (or Scruby) in Nottinghamshire. But these Puritans had little freedom to worship God and follow His Word and their conscience. Non-conformity was punishable by imprisonment and torture.(Sounds like the illegal home churches in China, doesn't it?)
Young, fatherless William Bradford, born in 1590, joined the Scrooby congregation and would be among the 125 uncompromising separatists who fled to Holland in search of religious freedom. Loving God's Word, he read through the Bible at age 12.

1603: Queen Elizabeth died. (By now, the Bible was the most read book in the land) Her successor, King James I, persecuted Catholics as well as the Protestant Puritans and Separatists. He believed he had the divine right to rule as he pleased, and he opposed all who refused to submit to the official church bureaucracy."In a fit of rage at these people, the Puritans, King James vowed, 'I shall make them conform or I will harry them out of the land, or else do worse.'"Glimpses Issue #20: Pilgrims in a Strange Land

1606: The Separatists (uncompromising Puritans) would not violate their conscience by participating in the (Anglican) Church of England with its remnants of Catholicism. Believing the true Church must submit to the headship of Christ, not to the spiritual edicts of their hostile king or the compromising church establishment, they had asked permission to start their own church, but King James had denied their request. Ridiculed by their neighbors, harassed by the courts, and forbidden to share the truths of salvation, they saw only one option: to flee to Holland. "With the situation growing more intense the Scrooby congregation realized they could not stay, yet they were not allowed to go." Prisoners in their own land, they could not leave without passports and permission from the King's Privy Council.

1607: After secretly boarding a ship and paying "the large expenditure," the Separatists discovered that they had been betrayed. "King James' local sheriff with his bailiffs appeared on the scene to arrest them." They "stripped them of their money, books and other goods before they were presented to the magistrates." Many of the men were jailed -- including William Brewster and the 17- year-old William Bradford.The Pilgrims
Meanwhile, the Jamestown Colony is founded in Virginia.

Spring 1608: The second attempt to leave began even more disastrously. While loading his ship and waiting for the women and children to arrive, "the ship master saw a large company Kings' officers, both horse and foot, marching in with weapons to take those on shore. The Dutchman weighed anchor, hoisted his sails and sped away. The poor men who were aboard were in great distress for their destitute wives and children which they saw being taken into custody.... "While at sea the men had to endure a terrifying storm at sea, 'being fourteen days or more before they arrived at their port, in seven whereof they neither saw the sun, moon or stars.'" The ship was north toward the coast of Norway, began to sink and "even the mariners themselves feared for their lives."
Desperate, the Pilgrims turned to God. As Bradford recorded, "when man's hope and help wholly failed, the Lord's Power and mercy appeared in their recovery; for the ship rose again and gave the mariners courage again to manage her. And if modesty would suffer me, I might declare with what fervent prayers they cried unto the Lord in this great distress.... Upon which the ship did not only recover, but shortly after the violence of the storm began to abate, and the Lord filled their afflicted minds with such comforts as everyone cannot understand, and in the end brought them to their desired haven, where the people came flocking, admiring their deliverance, the storm having been so long and sore...."
"Those on shore who were arrested were shuffled from one place to another and from one justice to another. The authorities did not know what to do with them. If they jailed so many women and innocent children for no other reason but having to go with their husbands, there would be a public outcry against them. The remaining women had no place to go because their homes and goods had already sold or otherwise disposed of and they had no way of making a living. In the end the authorities were so weary of the problematic situation they were happy to be rid of them on any terms....
"Bradford continues, 'They endured many other passages and troubles and underwent these wanderings and travels both at land and at sea. Yet, by those so public troubles in so many places their cause became famous and occasioned many to look into the same, and their godly carriage and Christian behavior was such as left a deep impression in the minds of many.... And in the end, notwithstanding all these storms of opposition, they all got over at length, some at one time and some at another, and some in one place and some in another, and met together again according to their desires, with no small rejoicing.'"
Finally, 125 members of the Scrooby congregation reached Holland, including William Brewster and William Bradford, who had stayed behind to help the women and children."

1608-1620: "The twelve years these Christians spent in Holland were difficult ones, but they accepted the difficulties as part of their lot as pilgrims --wanderers and sojourners in a strange land.... Most of the pilgrims had been farmers in England, but in Holland they had to learn new jobs, and even the children were worn down by hard work."

1611: "Despite his treatment of the non-conformists, King James authorized the translation of the Bible we know as the King James Version. The work had begun in 1604, urged by John Rainolds, a Puritan, and accomplished by 54 scholars from Oxford, Cambridge and Westminster.

1617: While Holland offered a sanctuary from persecution, the pilgrims were still within reach of King James, who continued to harass the dissident pilgrims.
"Many of the Separatists began to wonder if there was any improvement in their lives since they were still overshadowed by persecution and religious strife. William Brewster had to go into hiding. Edward Winslow said: 'How hard the country was . . . How grievous to live from under the protection of the State of England. How like we were to lose our language, and our name, of English. How little good we did, or are likely to do, to the Dutch in reforming the Sabbath. How unable to give such education to our children as we ourselves have received.' ...
"William Bradford wanted to spread the Christian gospel in some distant part of the world - in truth to be a pilgrim. Having noted that the twelve year truce between Spain and Holland would expire in 1621, William also realised a new war would turn Leyden into a bloody battleground.
The congregation voted to emigrate to America, and young William Bradford began to plan the journey. Later he would write in his journal that the main reason for leaving was concern for the children who were "drawn away [from Christ] by evil examples into extravagant and dangerous courses."
A second reason was "a great hope and inward zeal they had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world--yea, though they should be but even stepping stones unto others for the performing of so great a work."

July 22 1620: The Scrooby Pilgrims left Holland for Southampton, England. Here they joined another group of English separatists.

5 August 1620: The Mayflower (with 80 passengers) and the Speedwell (with about 40 passengers) set sail and headed for Virginia. But when the Speedwell began to leak, the ships turned back for repairs. After a second attempt, the Speedwell was declared unseaworthy.

Sept. 6 1620: Once again, the Mayflower, an old cargo vessel used for hauling wine between England and France, set sail for Virginia carrying 102 passengers and 30 crew. Crowded together on the 90 foot long ship, the pilgrims endured cramped conditions, rough weather, sickness and shortage of food. "Not all of the 102 passengers on the two-month voyage were Christians, however. Some had other than religious reasons for going to America, but the pilgrims provided the leadership for this group composed of what they called 'strangers and saints.'"

Nov. 11 1620: After 66 days at sea, they sighted land and anchored at the tip of Cape Cod (now Provincetown) -- far north of the territory officially granted to them in northern Virginia. On the cold, rocky shores of what would become "New England," the pilgrims "fell upon their knees and blessed the God of heaven who had brought them over this vast and furious ocean."

Nov. 11-Dec 20 1620: For 36 days they remained at Cape Cod. Here the 41 men -- pilgrims and "strangers" together -- wrote the Mayflower Compact. To avoid rebellion and anarchy in the new land, the men signed this legal covenant (their constitution) thus establishing a self-government that promised equal rights and elections:
"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, &. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these present, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."

Dec. 11 1620: After signing the Mayflower Compact, an exploratory team of 16 men left in a "shallow" (small sailboat that could navigate shallow coastal areas more safely than the ship) to search for a place to settle. On the 11th, they landed at Plymouth Harbor, on the western side of Cape Cod Bay. They found a good harbor, rivers of fresh water, and fields cleared for planting -- and saw no sign of the dreaded natives.

Dec. 21 1620: The Mayflower sailed into the Plymouth Harbor. They Pilgrims had reached their new home.WinterBut all was not well. While all had survived the journey across the Atlantic, disease now ravaged the small Plymouth colony. Weakened by cold weather and the hardships of the stormy journey, half of the travelers -- 51 of the 103 -- died soon after arrival. Day after day, new graves were dug. Heartbroken families mourned the loss of fathers, mothers and precious children.

Jan.- March 1621: At first, the surviving pilgrims continued to live in the stuffy, windowless hull of the Mayflower. They enduring gnawing hunger and continuing hardships. During the day, the men would face cold, wet winds to build simple houses for their own families as well as a "Common House" to store tools and shelter homeless women and children. Each Sunday, the Pilgrims would sing their beloved Psalms and hear sermons by William Brewster.

March 1621: Spring brought sunlight, warmth and other blessings. To help introduce them to the land, God first sent Samoset, a friendly native who spoke English. Samoset, in turn, brought Squanto, a local native who -- by God's providence -- had escaped the epidemic that killed his tribe. Some years earlier, slave traders had captured and brought Squanto to Europe where he had learned their language. He now stayed with his new friends and taught them how to catch fish, plant corn, hunt game, and separate safe edible plants from the poisonous plants.

Spring 1621: By the end of March, all the Pilgrims had moved into their new homes. Children were taught to read by their parents or someone else in the colony. The Bible provided the guidelines for living together as well as the certain hope that -- no matter the difficulties they might face -- God would bring ultimate triumph.



...To be continued....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

First: About King James II, the man who contracted the King James translation of the Bible and from whom the Puritans (Pilgrims) fled, you have said...

You are a Canadian and you don't know your English history of the Monarchy ...

It was not James II who had the Bible translated, but King James I.

.................................................. ... selah

I noticed you edited your post, but you still got the two King James' confused.

James I 1603-1625

James II 1685-1688

[aron]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

...To be continued....

If alwayslearning were to continue your story he might point out that once the Pilgrims became established they became oppressive towards others (Quaker, Indians, Baptists, 'witches', etc), just as they had been oppressed in Merrie Olde England.

But the problem with "just as" is that it involves a simplification, in order to identify a trend, which simplification results in a loss of detail which ruins the ability to make a fair assessment.

I think God is detailed. Every hair on your head is numbered. The Puritans indeed became oppressors, as they and their fathers/mothers had been oppressed, but were they trending in a positive direction, or were they actually just as bad? Were they more "christian" than what they had fled from, or just as unchristian?

Jews were oppressed in Nazi Germany; eventually Israelite Jews oppressed Palestinians. Is Benjamin Netanyahu therefore just as bad as Adolf Hitler? Probably not. Details matter. I think this is important as you & alwayslearning and others fill in the blanks. I think the best we can do is have a discussion and hope that sloooowwwly a consensus emerges.

People who staunchly hold that "America is (or was) the new Covenanted Israel" or "America was founded by brigands and misanthropists" are barely more helpful to the conversation than the person who saw the face of Jesus in his french toast this morning. Their "vision" pretty much precludes conversation.

[alwayslearning]

Thank you for taking the time to post at length NFNL. I appreciate your effort. I made some direct comments on some of your post and then some more general comments at the end.

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

First: About King James, the man who contracted the King James translation of the Bible and from whom the Puritans (Pilgrims) fled, you have said...To this I would offer:
"King James ascended the throne upon the death of his brother, Charles II. Members of Britain's political and religious elite increasingly opposed him for being pro-French and pro-Catholic, and for his designs on becoming an absolute monarch. James is best known for his belief in the Divine Right of Kings. James's time in France had exposed him to the beliefs and ceremonies of Catholicism; he and his wife, Anne, became drawn to that faith. James took Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church in 1668 or 1669, although his conversion was kept secret for some time and he continued to attend Anglican services until 1676." (courtesy of Wikipedia).

As Ohio has already pointed out this quote is referring to King James II not King James I.

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Of King James Bible Translation:

"King James did not encourage a translation of the Bible in order to enlighten the common people: his sole intent was to deny them the marginal notes of the Geneva Bible. The marginal notes of the Geneva version were what made it so popular with the common people.

But further down you write/quote this:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

1611: "

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Despite his treatment of the non-conformists, King James authorized the translation of the Bible we know as the King James Version. The work had begun in 1604, urged by John Rainolds, a Puritan, and accomplished by 54 scholars from Oxford, Cambridge and Westminster."

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

1607:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

After secretly boarding a ship and paying "the large expenditure," the Separatists discovered that they had been betrayed. "King James' local sheriff with his bailiffs appeared on the scene to arrest them." They "stripped them of their money, books and other goods before they were presented to the magistrates." Many of the men were jailed -- including William Brewster and the 17- year-old William Bradford.The Pilgrims
Meanwhile, the Jamestown Colony is founded in Virginia.

Yes meanwhile the Jamestown Colony was founded in VA by a group of businessmen in search of gold and other assets under a charter from King James 1. William Brewster eventually came over to MA on the Mayflower 13 years later.

I think we should perhaps go back a little further to grasp the situation in England more clearly:

What you have described regarding the religious and political turmoil in England in the 1600s actually started under the reign of King Henry VIII in the mid 1500s when he took over the Church of England (Anglican) because the Pope wouldn't give him a divorce from his wife. With this move he and future kings and queens became the head of the Church of England and this Church was the established church/religion. And this word "established" is quite important as it turns up again in early American history. So the Church was Catholic and became Protestant as King Henry was influenced by the Protestant Reformation that had come to England from the Continent. But some Catholic influences remained in terms of practices i.e. level of formality, litgury, etc. BTW the functioning head i.e. in charge of day-to-day operations, theological issues etc. was/is the Archbishop of Canterbury. As is evident the religious and political were tightly intertwined in England (and on the Continent).

I mentioned in a previous post the Church of England/King or Queen/ Archbishop of Canterbury persecuted Dissenters and had the political power to do so. The Church under King James 1 was no exception. And this included Catholics (who's property was confiscated) not just Separatists, Puritans, etc. when the King or Queen was Protestant. Now when an actual Puritan gained power in England i.e Oliver Cromwell he not only killed the King he also committed what some consider to be at the level of genocide against Catholics - especially in Ireland. And when the Separatists and Puritans had the political power in the colonies they in turn persecuted "Dissenters" e.g the Quakers, Baptists, etc. You will believe what we believe and do church how we do church or you'll be persecuted. (BTW I think understanding power will help you understand this history.)

This whole dynamic is what I previously described as Christians persecuting Christians. It was infighting. In other words the Hindus in India weren't arguing about Bible translations, church practices, etc. Neither were the Buddhists in China or the animist Cherokees in the "New World". (And putting things in perspective I like how Winston Churchill describes the American Revolution in his work A History of English-Speaking Peoples as "The Quarrel with America".)

Now since you seem to be perturbed by the concept of the divine rights of kings please let me reiterate: this idea and practice was common in Europe and Britain for centuries. This was not some random idea that popped into a king's head in the 1600s. And the Bible was used as a justification for their position on this issue:

Romans 13:1 "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God."

2 Peter 2:1: "Submit yourself for the Lord's sake to every human institution whether to a king..."

Mark 12:17: "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesars."

So the reasonable argument could be made that the Founding Fathers instead of starting an armed Revolution should have submitted to King George III. I'm not making that argument because I know the Judeo-Christian tradition was not their only influence. The idea of democracy came from Greece and separation of powers from Rome, etc.

[Thankful Jane]

I would like to post further on this thread and respond more specifically to some things, but it seems I have no time this week. (Next week may be better.) For now, I just want to say a few things.

Thank you, Mike, for your last few posts. I really appreciate your kinder tone and your more thoughtful approach to this thread (and your repentance … fully accepted). If I came across badly at any point, I too repent. Thank you for hearing what I wrote about my main reason for posting Cahn’s message being a call to repentance. There was also another reason, as yet unmentioned, which I alluded to in my first post and indicated I might write more about later. Lord willing, I will.

Someone once told me that real communication takes place when a speaking person (or a writer) is able to convey to listeners (or readers) the actual meaning he/she intends to convey. When that happens, there is genuine communication. Another wise person told me that whenever respect, in attitude, tone, and language, is missing from dialogue, there is no possibility of real communication taking place. I believe that good and useful communication can take place on this forum if writers will work hard to write as clearly and respectfully as they can and if readers will take the time to really try to hear and understand what a writer is saying (or trying to say). It is easy to be reactive (…speaking from experience), but not so easy to take a deep breath, read a post slowly a second or even third time, ask God’s help to understand what is being said, and take time to think about it (all of it) carefully before responding.

I personally think communication is one of the most difficult things we do in life. (My husband and I are 100% in agreement about this statement. We have four plus decades of trying to learn to communicate well and some days it seems we’re still in first grade.)

My openness to Cahn’s message was due, in part, to recent happenings in my life that I referred to in the “cloud” part of my first post. I didn't explain this. My openness was also due, in part, to my current view of American history.

Although I had no intention of discussing views of American history when I posted, this became a topic (in retrospect, understandably so). So, for now, in hope of being a better communicator, I am providing a link to a document about historical revisionism with respect to this country. I know it might be better if I wrote what I think about this, but I don’t have time to do so. So, I submit this article, not to argue a position, or insist that others believe this, but just to show a little more of what has influenced my views about American history. Maybe some will find this helpful. The perspective I held about the founding of America, one that I was taught in school, has changed significantly over the last few years.

(The fact is that none of us human beings can say with certainty that we have the correct perspective on historical matters. We weren’t there in the early years of America's history and no one from that era remains that can answer our questions. Our only source of information is written materials. And, as is true with knowing the Bible, we should do our own research, homework, etc. to see if the things we have heard are so.)
--------------

Lord, help us learn to communicate (fellowship) well. Help us walk in the light one with another as You are in the light. Thank you for your blood that cleanses us from all sin as we do so.


Here is the link: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=100

Thankful Jane

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

In actuality the nation was founded upon 3 strands of tradition: Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment.

I once read a more compelling historical argument that our three branches of government were modeled after the prevailing church structures of the time. The best features of the Congregationalist, Presbyterian, and Anglican churches steered the formation of congress, the judiciary, and the executive branches.

I tend to believe that church ecclesiology had a little more impact on our founding fathers than Greek and Roman cultures.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Lord, help us learn to communicate (fellowship) well. Help us walk in the light one with another as You are in the light. Thank you for your blood that cleanses us from all sin as we do so.


Here is the link: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=100

Thankful Jane

TJ,

I also repent to all & sundry if my tone is smug and/or off-putting. I tend to write quickly, with whatever inspires or amuses me, and then hit "submit". Naturally a lot of it isn't as inspiring, informative or enlightening to others.

I do a lot of history, science, theology reading on the internet. So I run into the equivalent of the "Wallbuilders" site fairly often (I actually have read this site before). Usually the authors' views are so narrowly focused that I don't have much patience and skim the bulk of the material.

As far as the U.S. or any group as specially blessed or different in God's eyes I don't really buy it. In a previous post the writer escapedfromthecurse listed 15 blessings applicable to the U.S. But aren't they also applicable to Sweden, Canada, and Bermuda? It's like they are trying to force the facts to fit their theory. Germany has well-known history of brutal intolerance to the Jews, and now they are one of the most economically viable ('blessed') countries in Europe. So eftc's list, while interesting, just doesn't "show" me anything, really.

But my commentaries are perhaps not advancing the collective wisdom much either. I will acknowledge that. So I try to remember: God loves the other person as much as He loves me. Try to respect the other person, and their ideas, as much as I wish others to pay attention to mine.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I once read a more compelling historical argument that our three branches of government were modeled after the prevailing church structures of the time. The best features of the Congregationalist, Presbyterian, and Anglican churches steered the formation of congress, the judiciary, and the executive branches.

I tend to believe that church ecclesiology had a little more impact on our founding fathers than Greek and Roman cultures.

Sorry due to time restraints I didn't mention a few steps. On the separation of powers the Founders were most influenced by the French political philosopher of the Enlightenment era Montesquieu and especially his work The Spirit of Laws who in turn was influenced by the Greek Polybius who did a history on the Roman Republic. Most of the Founders were well acquainted with Montesquieu's work and Madison in the Federalist Papers said this: "The oracle who is always consulted and cited on this subject, is the celebrated Montesquieu."

[OBW]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

. . . Let me go further, and confess that when I fail to "convince", I feel like I have personally failed. I feel like I cannot communicate well enough, and because of that I've not only alienated brothers and sisters in Christ, I've also failed the Lord. . .

I try to only feel I've failed when they don't understand what I said. I have found that convincing reasonably goes two ways. It may be me that rethinks.

I know there are some who doubt that. But if it weren't true, I'd still be i the LRC.

[OBW]

Jane,

The problem with the position is not that there were not more people who both religiously and/or philosophically were of a Judeo-Christian mindset.

It is that just because they were that the nation is imbued with some special blessing that we can try to get back.

The nation is its people. When we were closer to being on the same page (philosophically, if not religiously), the relative harmony could be seen as blessing. Further, since it was harder for enemies to launch attacks on the country, there was little opposition from outside. But both of those have changed. We are not all on the same page. And Joe Terrorist (or Sven or Jose, or Achmed, or whoever) can much more easily do serious damage even if he/she cannot start a war.

The problem still is that the nature of the nation as blessed by God because of special status is a historical falsity. It is its own recast.

Yes, God and the Bible have been slowly excised from secular history. But even when they were there, the premise that we now presume about it was not true.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Yes, God and the Bible have been slowly excised from secular history. But even when they were there, the premise that we now presume about it was not true.

Secular history usually admits a broader spectrum of opinion, and data. It admits religious opinion, as one of many. So if a religious opinion says "X causes Y" (i.e. God's covenant with Israel was transposed to the North American colonies/nation and caused subsequent blessings/prosperity) then secular history should treat that hypothesis as all others.

I see two related reasons why such a religious/spiritually-oriented hypothesis of history's events is ignored(excised) by the secular writers. First, as I said, the religious opinion is now seen as but one of many. It needs to compete with other religions and other viewpoints. It is no longer monopolistic in social discourse, but is merely one idea in a welter of ideas. There is a marketplace, if you will.

Secondly, compounding this challenge, is the problem that the religious idea usually doesn't know how to compete. In social science (e.g. history) one holds forth a hypothesis (X caused Y), discusses the idea's lineage, shows how it explains observable phenomenon, shows alternatives, acknowledges flaws & weaknesses, shows where this idea could be improved upon with more study, etc. One is literally humbling oneself and acknowledging the marketplace. Religious hypotheses, from what I observe, usually denigrate everyone else or simply pretend alternatives don't exist. They usually end up in some weird place of circular reasoning, cutting off any evidence from "outside" which could restrain the madness of the prophet.

For example, "There can only be one apostle in each age" is based upon the speaking of God's oracle, who is naturally God's man of the current hour, i.e. the apostle of the age. See how easy that is? As long as you don't allow any competing voices, you can go on and on. And, as I said, you can get stranger and stranger.

"In a multitude of voices there is safety" So said the wise writer of Proberbs. He repeated this formula 3 times in that book. Instead we now see "One Publication" and "BrotherLeesaid".

Believe me, I come up with some strange (or "novel") ideas myself. Some of them I become fascinated with. They hold a marvelous explanatory power... suddenly everything becomes so clear to me! I run around, and hold forth my revelation to my friends. But my revelation is, at best, "my truth" to (quietly) live and to hold, within what the collective church lives and holds. If I marginalize (dismiss or ignore) church teachings I will be marginalized instead. I believe that likewise religious histories have become marginalized because they don't respect the marketplace of ideas, and how it operates. If you show more respect for others' ideas you will get more traction & reception for your own.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

Secular history usually admits a broader spectrum of opinion, and data. It admits religious opinion, as one of many. So if a religious opinion says "X causes Y" (i.e. God's covenant with Israel was transposed to the North American colonies/nation and caused subsequent blessings/prosperity) then secular history should treat that hypothesis as all others.

I see two related reasons why such a religious/spiritually-oriented hypothesis of history's events is ignored(excised) by the secular writers.

I think it is generally accepted by both secular and Christian historians that the Judeo-Christian tradition had an influence on the Founders. This is no secret - it is an obvious fact. How could it be otherwise? But apparently some Christians are not satisfied with that and I think this thread is a case in point.

In one of my initial posts I stated what I consider to be common knowledge: "In actuality the nation was founded upon 3 strands of tradition: Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment." To my surprise I received quite a bit of flack for making this statement. In fact it was implied that I was being blinded by the god of this age who was tricking people into believing this sort of thing. Please note I did not say:

"In actuality the nation was founded upon 2 strands of tradition: Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment."

Neither did I say: "In actuality the nation was not founded on the Judeo-Christian tradition."

So what's the problem? Do some Christians seriously think that ignoring the other influences on the Founders is a credible position to take? Franklin was friends with Voltaire while he was in Paris as our ambassador lobbying the French to finance the Revolution. They were buddies and palled around town together. He even asked Voltaire to bless his grandson. Jefferson was very sad that Voltaire had died by the time he got to Paris but made sure he had a bust done of him to put in his study back in VA. He had many of his books in his library and was well read in Voltaire. Their views on religious and political liberty were informed by Voltaire. Should Christians cover this up and pretend it didn't happen? We can't handle the fact that the Founders were influenced by three strands of tradition? Are we that insecure?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

If alwayslearning were to continue your story he might point out that once the Pilgrims became established they became oppressive towards others (Quaker, Indians, Baptists, 'witches', etc), just as they had been oppressed in Merrie Olde England.

But the problem with "just as" is that it involves a simplification, in order to identify a trend, which simplification results in a loss of detail which ruins the ability to make a fair assessment.

I think God is detailed. Every hair on your head is numbered. The Puritans indeed became oppressors, as they and their fathers/mothers had been oppressed, but were they trending in a positive direction, or were they actually just as bad? Were they more "christian" than what they had fled from, or just as unchristian?

"Just as" is a qualitative assessment. "Degrees" is quantitative. The religious intolerance of the Puritans in MA was just as it was in England when they left and no they were not trending in a positive direction. They banned Quakers from the colony. They executed Quakers. They whipped Quakers out of towns throughout the colony. Finally King Charles II stepped in and expressly legally forbade them from persecuting those who professed Quakerism - that's how bad it was.

I think some Christians today yearning for the "good old days" of the Puritans are comfortably doing so while living in the luxury of a pluralistic democracy. They wouldn't survive a day in a monolithic theocracy! IMHO they should stop complaining and start appreciating what the Founders actually did - yes Puritans, etc you can believe whatever you want and practice religion how you want but you have no right and more importantly no power to impose it on anybody else.

[aron]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

The religious intolerance of the Puritans in MA was just as it was in England when they left and no they were not trending in a positive direction.

I am not convinced of this, but I have not read enough, nor studied anyone who has read enough, to give you any argument countering yours. Probably it was not the "shining city on the hill" that some wished it were, but I felt at least it was a move in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2H9fniQTY

Thankful Jane

Well, I have only completed 7 minutes of the speech but felt I had to respond. I agree with your assertion that they (Alwayslearning, etal) have distorted the message, created a straw man, and then attacked the straw man.

1. He said “America was founded on God’s word to give God glory” – This statement seems to be referring to the Mayflower compact, not to the constitution because he then says “America was to be a city on a hill, a nation to which others would look, it was to be a holy commonwealth.” For someone with the supposed extensive background in history that Alwayslearning purports this seems to be an intentional mistake.

2. He says “they brought forth its first governments in the name of Jesus”, this also does not appear to be a reference to the constitution but rather to earlier city and state governments that preceded the constitution. This appears to be a direct reference to Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, North and South Carolina and the recent Supreme court case. I listened to this quote several times and it was very clear that he said "governments" plural and not "government" singular. Since this was a recent Supreme Court ruling that these states could no longer use the name of Jesus in their oaths it seems to be a glaring mistake by those who have interpreted this as referring to our constitution, again it seems to be an intentional mistake.

3. “They established its first school system for the purpose of teaching the word of God”. The Bible and Hymnals were used by a number of the first school systems. It has been well documented and as far as I can see not even a matter of debate that Bibles and Hymnals were used as textbooks in the first school systems.

4. “America would become the most blessed nation on Earth, a refuge for the exiles, a light for the oppressed. A beacon against the dark forces of tyranny.”

This is a direct quote from the speaker and is a direct reference to several verses in the Bible that refer to the basis for God's blessing. AlwaysLearning dismissed my references because I hadn't heard this talk, apparently AlwaysLearning hadn't heard it either.

Again, I have only listened to 7 minutes but it is very clear to me that this entire discussion about the US constitution has nothing to do with what the speaker actually said.

He asked “Can a nation forget her God?” But the context was very clear. He said a pastor was banned from praying during a public ceremony because years ago he had preached a sermon in which he said that those things the Bible calls sins are sin. The context was clearly that schools have eliminated the references to God in their books and songs. The context was that TV used to end their day of programming with sermons and now they are filled with violence and lust that were once unimaginable. There was no reference at all to the US constitution. Instead the reference was to a Bible verse in which God asks Israel the same question.

Once again, it is becoming very clear that the discussion about the US constitution has nothing to do with this man’s speech and is a straw man.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2H9fniQTY

Thankful Jane
[/COLOR][/FONT]

And the context was that tomorrow marked the 40th anniversary of America legalizing abortion. During these 40 years he states that 50 million babies have been killed and likened this to the children that Israel killed.

What did God say about that?

Deuteronomy
18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire…
18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

According to Deuteronomy the reason God gave the Good land to Israel and drove out the inhabitants is because they aborted their children and burned the foetus in the fire. This reference is clearly a good analogy with America and our killing 50 million babies through legalized abortion.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2H9fniQTY

Thankful Jane
[/COLOR][/FONT]

The reference to 911 was the “lifting of the hedge of protection”. In other words, prior to this attack there was no attack on our soil (Pearl harbor? Civil War? I think he is referring to the last 50 years or so. With this same reasoning you could say that the Civil War was a judgment on this nation for the sin of slavery. Pearl Harbor could have been a wake up call from God that we have to stop being completely focused on America and instead take our position in the World.) So with some caveats this is a reasonable interpretation. The US was involved in the Gulf Wars, we have witnessed extensive terrorism worldwide, but until 911 the nation had been protected from these attacks on our soil.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2H9fniQTY

Thankful Jane
[/COLOR][/FONT]

The 9 harbingers:

Isaiah 9:10

1. Instead of repentance they responded to God’s warning with defiance.
Isaiah 9:10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.
“God you won’t humble us, we will continue down our ways with defiance. We will do so with our own efforts and we will come back stronger than before.”
2. The fifth harbinger is to place a stone of judgment at the place of God’s judgment. The monument at the World Trade Center is a “stone of judgment”.
3. The sixth harbinger a sycamore must be struck down at the ground of judgment. When the second tower came down the debris struck and leveled a sycamore tree, which is a Biblical sign of judgment.
4. The seventh harbinger is called “Eres” it appeared in the sky 2 years after.
5. The ninth harbinger is the vow of judgment. The vow of bricks and sycomores in Isaiah 9:10. One day after 911 Tom Daschle quoted Isaiah 9:10 on capital hill, and this “vow of judgment” is a harbinger.

He then says the economic implosion we have recently experienced (the mortgage crisis) is called “the second shaking”.

I don’t know what to think. Do I agree that 911 could and should be viewed as a warning from God and that it demonstrates our “hedge of protection” has been removed? I am inclined to say yes.

Do I think the 911 memorial is a harbinger of God’s judgment? I am inclined to say this is an interesting idea.

I am not sure which tree he is referring to and since I am very familiar with ground zero, having visited the site before and after 911 I feel this may be a reach.

I do not know what the sign is that appeared in the sky unless it was the Red moon on October 2004, but that was 3 years later, not 2 years later.

I think that Daschle’s quote from Isaiah shows the hypocrisy of arguing that this country is not based on the word of God. Why didn’t he quote the Greek Scholars, etc. Everyone knows that we swear in officials on a Bible, we promise to tell the truth swearing on a Bible, and when push comes to shove we quote the Bible. I think it also demonstrates how clueless they are. They quote the Bible without having the faintest idea what it means.

The basic premise in all of this is that God is in charge and that nothing happens without His allowing it. So although I can’t verify much of what he says I can’t dismiss it either.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2H9fniQTY

Thankful Jane
[/COLOR][/FONT]

He quotes Washington’s inaugural speech

1. No People can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand, which conducts the Affairs of men more than the People of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.
2. Since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven, can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained: And since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty, and the destiny of the Republican model of Government, are justly considered as deeply, perhaps as finally staked, on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people.

I do not understand all the discussion by AlwaysLearning, etal about his connecting God to America. This quote from Washington is his thesis. This was what was spoken at the first inauguration and many years later on this inauguration he is reminding us what was spoken to us.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

This thread is a discussion about Cahn's talk and it is what I am addressing. Nobody and especially me are asking you to have Cahn speak for you. On the contrary the reasonable request is being made that you listen to what he has to say and let us know what you think about it like the rest of us are doing. After that we can have an informed discussion about it.

Well then why don't you follow your "reasonable request" instead of pontificating.

Referring to Washington’s inauguration is very relevant. As he points out this is where the country was first consecrated. And the location of that consecration was in fact ground zero. This certainly supports his thesis. We were told at our consecration the condition of God blessing us”. God’s blessing is equivalent to the “propitious smiles of Heaven” and it is based on the eternal rules which Heaven has ordained.

The man is giving a speech on inauguration day to pray for the blessings of this country. It is certainly relevant to refer to Washington's first inauguration speech and the consecration of the nation which occurred at a church in NYC which was coincidentally located at ground zero. In this speech Washington says that we as a nation can only expect God's blessings if we obey the eternal rules of God ordained by Heaven. Which is the man's thesis. Your entire argument about the constitution and all this other drivel is a straw man.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by EscapedtheCurse

Again, I have only listened to 7 minutes but it is very clear to me that this entire discussion about the US constitution has nothing to do with what the speaker actually said.

What discussion on the US Constitution? Now I recommend you not only listen to Cahn's entire talk before commenting but also read the entire thread!

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Escapedfromthecurse

Your entire argument about the constitution and all this other drivel is a straw man.

What entire argument about the Constitution?

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by aron

I am not convinced of this, but I have not read enough, nor studied anyone who has read enough, to give you any argument countering yours. Probably it was not the "shining city on the hill" that some wished it were, but I felt at least it was a move in the right direction.

Since MA was part of Britain at the time I think you might find it interesting and informative to study what was going on in England at least from the time of the settlement in Plymouth until King Charles II had to intervene due to the Quaker persecution. Actually you might find it helpful to study what was going on there and in France (our main ally in the Revolution) from the time of the Jamestown settlement until the Revolution.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I was able to listen to his entire talk this morning. I don't think his passion can be disputed however I disagree with his underlying premise i.e. America was once a blessed nation because it was founded on eternal and heavenly principles and consecrated to God/Jesus and is losing (or has lost) that blessing under God's judgment for our sinful ways. And that the Twin Tower attack and more recent economic turn down are signs of this judgment. I think this is a very selective view of American history.

The premise that America was founded on eternal and heavenly principles and consecrated to God is taken verbatim from Washington's inaugural speech and the prayer that took place later at St. Paul's chapel as a consecration, the same site that the Twin Towers were located at. Of course this is a very selective view of American history I think that is obvious to everyone.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

In actuality the nation was founded upon 3 strands of tradition: Judeo-Christian, Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment. Many of the founders were Deists not Christians. They belonged to Masonic Lodges. Several had mistresses. Most owned slaves. But they were also quite smart and learned. Drawing on these traditions and adding in their own insights they were able to put together the documents and framework and begin building the institutions of a new nation. This was messy work at best as one finds out when they dig into the archives to see how the sausage was made - so to speak.

This is the straw man argument. His reference was clearly to the Mayflower compact. You are referring to the US constitution and the founding fathers. He was referring to an event 150 years prior to this. None of those on the Mayflower were "deists", they did not set out with three strands, and they didn't own slaves. You have substituted what he said for what you wanted him to say.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Whenever I hear that America has sinned and is under God's judgment and needs to turn back to Him (not an unusual theme) I always wonder 2 things:

1. At what time were we as a nation turned to God in the first place? What is the benchmark?

2. What would this look like in practical application today? How would American society actually function and operate once it "turned back to God"?

1. He provided this in his speech. "“America would become the most blessed nation on Earth, a refuge for the exiles, a light for the oppressed. A beacon against the dark forces of tyranny.” If you look at the verses I provided you can see there is a very strong Biblical basis to say that these things would be characteristics of a nation blessed by God.

2. I think, based on his speech, that it is safe to say that America would stop killing millions of babies a year. That would be a good start.

[alwayslearning]

Escapedfromthecurse have you listened to his entire talk and read this entire thread yet?

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I'm not sure what your post has to do with this thread unless you are suggesting in a democratic society that the moral character of leaders is irrelevant and should be covered up. Or in the case of Jefferson and Franklin that believing in the divinity of Christ is not a requirement for being a Christian.

I am addressing the position of Cahn that at one time America was a blessed nation and because of our sin is no longer (or is losing) this blessing. If I am understanding you correctly Cahn should not be pointing this sin out? Or it was OK for the founding fathers to sin but if we sin we will lose the blessing?

No, you are not addressing the position of Cahn. This person has made it very clear he was not talking about Jefferson, Franklin or the founding fathers. Your assumption that this was the case was baseless. His quote in the speech was clearly referring to the Mayflower compact without any reference to the founding fathers at all, other than Washington's speech.

In his book, Harbinger, he states clearly he is not talking about the founding fathers, but rather to those who came 150 years earlier.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

Escapedfromthecurse have you listened to his entire talk and read this entire thread yet?

I think this question would qualify as pontificating.

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I second the motion. Or a synopsis to see if I want to listen to the whole thing.

The message is based on his book "The Harbinger". The book refers to 9 harbingers he identifies of God's judgment. This is based on Isaiah 9:10 and 9/11.

1 – the hedge is removed. This is the first harbinger of God’s judgment. God puts a hedge of protection around a nation under his protection. Prior to 9/11 it seemed that the US did not suffer the terrorist attacks that Israel and the rest of the world did. 9/11 was the removal of the hedge of protection.
2 – The terrorist is the second harbinger. It referred to the Assyrians who were responsible for the attack referred to by Isaiah 9:10. The Assyrians lived in modern day Iraq, they were raised up to be terrorists: “its in his heart to destroy” according to Isaiah. Terrorists are the 2nd harbinger.
3 – The oracle is the 3rd harbinger, it refers to Isaiah 9:10. This was Israel’s response to God’s judgment. Instead of repentance they responded defiantly. Interestingly, Tom Daschle quoted this same verse as the nation’s response the same week as 9/11.
4 – The tower. According to the Septuagint Isaiah 9:10 says they would rebuild a tower in defiance. At ground zero there is a plaque saying that “Freedom Tower” would be built as an act of defiance.
5 – The foundation stone of hewn stone. This was referred to in Isaiah 9:10. In Isaiah the nation of Israel responds with defiance saying they will rebuild rather than repent at God’s rebuke. Likewise, this hewn stone was laid at ground zero with a big ceremony in which they declared they would respond with defiance, no repentance.
6—Sycamore tree that was planted outside of St. Paul’s chapel it was destroyed on 9/11 but famously protected this chapel which was critical during the ordeal as a place for first responders and for those seeking missing people. This chapel was also the place where Washington came after the inauguration to have the New nation consecrated. Buildings falling down signify the falling of the kingdom. Sycamores being uprooted signify the uprooting of the kingdom. It was certainly a very significant location to signify the “uprooting” of the kingdom. This uprooted tree became a symbol of 9/11 with a plaque calling it “the Sycamore of Ground Zero).
7 – The Erez tree. Isaiah 9:10 says they will change the fallen sycamores into cedars, however the word is actually Erez which refers to conifer pine trees of which Cedars are one. The “sycamore of ground zero” was removed and turned into a monument and it was replaced with a conifer pine tree in 2003. Both the placing of the foundation stone at ground zero and the planting of this tree were both done as big public ceremonies and acts of defiance, just as Israel had done. They said “The tree of hope is planted in the same spot where a sixty year old sycamore stood the morning of September 11, 2001.”
8 – The utterance on the anniversary of 9/11 an American leader in Washington D.C. used Isaiah 9:10 as the basis of his speech: we are rebuilding, we’re replacing the sycamore tree, etc.
9 – The prophecy – The Senate majority leader as an official response to 9/11 a few days after the attack also used Isaiah 9:10 as a vow or prophecy of how the US would respond.

[UntoHim]

Hey, "Escapedfromthecurse" it is against the forum rules and even general "netiquette" to post under multiple monikers. You've been warned about this before. Sail straight my friend or you're going to find yourself landlocked.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hey, "Escapedfromthecurse" it is against the forum rules and even general "netiquette" to post under multiple monikers. You've been warned about this before. Sail straight my friend or you're going to find yourself landlocked.

Sorry about that. Steve asked me to post on his thread, I had turned him down but decided to read it again. That was when I decided to post on this thread. I only decided to post again as ZNP when it seemed Steve really needed some support. At that point I had already posted as EFTC so it seemed easier to just finish that discussion as is. Sorry if that is improper. However, I do not recall ever being warned about this before unless you have me confused with someone else. Thanks.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Indiana

This is from an email yesterday from Angelica Fazio. This is what I meant about what God may be looking at while you are not. I wonder what your thoughts are on her points about a blessed nation.

I agree with Tom (no forum member) and Jane about the relevance of Cahn's message. As far as the book, "The Harbinger," I purchased it and read it when it first came out. I definitely agree that Cahn is on to something regarding God's judgment of America. Before the book was in print, there was an email going around----apparently initiated by Cahn or someone close to him. To me, that email was even more impressive than the book. It wasn't couched in fictional context, and it actually showed photos of them laying the huge "quarried rock" and planting the fir tree where the sycamore had fallen, etc. It was a bit breathtaking! I have recently searched for that link and been unable to find it. I suppose Cahn had it removed to boost sales of the book. I don't know.

I'm not certain what Tom said about Obama's re-election; however, I suspect his sentiments resemble mine---that short of divine, miraculous intervention, Obama's reelection spells the end of America as we have known it. America as we had known it is already history by now. And this is just the beginning.

I would have posted, but I couldn't find a way to register. I don't have a lot of time to invest in this. However, I agree a whole lot with Carol Garza's comments on the blog. Obviously, Abraham Lincoln thought we (America) had "forgotten God" and turned away from our underpinnings in Him---even at the time Lincoln served. If we want to see the heart of the early patriots, we should look at their songs and what it was that inspired them. "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" was just that: it stated what the heart was of those who were willing to risk their lives to establish this nation. There are fewer more inspirational Christian hymns---as far as fighting for Christ's cause is concerned. (Their doctrine didn't coincide with what the three of us believe. The author was obviously amillenial---and thought they were going to usher in Christ's return and reign through their military victory on earth. "As He (Christ) died to make men holy, let us live to make men free, while God is marching on." etc.

The war cry in the revolutionary was "No king but Jesus!" The second stanza of "My Country 'Tis of Thee" actually is a declaration of them reversing Israel's move of rejecting God for an earthly king. It goes, "Our father's God, to Thee---Author of Liberty--to Thee we sing. Long may our land be bright with freedom's holy light. Protect us by Thy might, great God, OUR KING!" The colonists honestly thought they were reversing the error of Israel of old. That was their position. In addition, the inscription on the "Liberty Bell": "Proclaim liberty throughout the land" was taken from Leviticus 25 and 27 regarding the jubilee of the children of Israel in their 70th year. The footprints of the Christian faith in our governmental documents and historic sites are too numerous to mention. Here's a brief listing of them: http://www.allabouthistory.org/spiri...uments-faq.htm

Sinners, deceived (possessing slaves but declaring equality of all men), and with doctrinal error----just like the rest of us. However, the concept of God, Christ, and the Bible ranked high in their thoughts. Even those deists could quote Scripture and believed it more than most of our clergy today. The authority of the Word of God was unquestioned. "The Old Deluder Satan Act" was the bases for establishing public education. It stated that, since our laws were based upon the Bible, it was essential for men to be able to read so that they could read their Bibles and keep the magistrates in line. Compare that to our attitude today. I believe it was Robert Charles Winthrop, an 1850 politician, who said we would be ruled "either by the Bible or the bayonet."

As far as contributing to the debate, I'm not sure what I could add. Like Tom, I don't have a lot of time to invest in this sort of thing. I continue to be 125% employed (hence, the amount of time it's taken me to get back to you regarding your email). I'd like to support Cahn's speaking/book in any way possible.

Hello Indie..please give my warmest regards to Angelica for me if she does not make another appearance here.

I do not understand how one person's personal positive insight on a book or YouTube turned into a heated debate.

Do we all not read the same bible (translations/versions aside)? In Matthew 7 (I think) Jesus clearly states not everyone who says "Lord Lord didn't I cast out demons in your Name and prophesy in Your Name?" Yet the Lord did not know these workers of iniquity. In Revelation chapters. 2-3, we also see Christ rebuking and commending the churches depending on their condition.

We ourselves run into cerebral believers making it very difficult for genuine fellowship. And we also run into carnal Christians as well as religious Christians. Now and then I run into a true Spirit Filled, God filled person making it so pleasurable to fellowship with.

I am sure back in the day when our country was being established and our laws/constitution was being implemented, there was a mixture of true living Christians, carnal Christians, and religious Christians working together. It is evidenced in their writings by including the Scriptures and God. Yet many if not most of our legislatures and Presidents lived immoral lives.

The only difference I see between our government leaders of today and those back then is if our constitution and laws were written today, there would be no mention of God or the scriptures. Our currency would not have the sealed imprint of "In God we trust".

Our government leaders back then may not have lived exemplary Christian lives but they were not embarrassed or ashamed of the Word of God.

Can you imagine what our constitution would look like if it was written for the first time today? Do you think the President would place his hand on a bible when taking the oath of office?

TJ was moved and enlightened by Cahn's perspective. So was I but I have also heard how our nations capital had its' buildings patterened by the Roman and Greek architecture. And how the Freemasons built their symbol into Washington DC.

In the end, I know what my bible tells me about the gentile nations and Israel. Jesus is King of kings, Lord of lords. And He IS coming again. Let us keep praying for many more people to get saved, After all, we are the Light of the world

Blessings everyone!

Carol Garza

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hello Indie..please give my warmest regards to Angelica for me if she does not make another appearance here.

I do not understand how one person's personal positive insight on a book or YouTube turned into a heated debate.

Thank you for referring me to this. I enjoyed watching the video and am half way through the book. I enjoy his insights into Isaiah 9:10. I find it very relevant since this verse has been quoted repeatedly at the most significant of moments regarding 9/11.

One year prior to 9/11 our church organized a rally in front of the UN to raise awareness for what was going on in Sudan. I was one of the three committee members that organized that rally. We had a picture of a boy who was burned by the terrorists and we had a small coffin for a child. The rally was a memorial service. You might have seen the movie about the preacher who shoots guns, or something like that (Machine gun preacher?). This man was also at this rally.

The point that our pastor made at that rally was that if we don't respond to the terrorists attacking Christians in Sudan, then we will one day have to respond to them here in this country.

One year later we had planned to have a second rally on 9/13 but it was cancelled after 9/11. On 9/11 I had to walk out of Manhattan and as I crossed the bridge and looked back a huge pillar of smoke was rising from where the Twin towers were. I felt like I was right out of CNN footage from some war torn region. I also felt that our rally (these things cost us around $20,000) was like a big burnt offering to the Lord. We had laid out the offering, prayed, and God had answered from heaven with fire. (We had prayed to raise awareness so that we could take action. We didn't pray for the attack, but I knew this would raise awareness).

Now because of my study on what was happening in Sudan I knew that Iraq and Al Qaida were two very different entities. I also knew that justifying an attack on Iraq because of human rights abuses was complete hypocrisy since the two biggest abusers by Amnesty international's account were our two allies: Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. So I knew the US was responding with defiance.

One other interesting side note, I met one of the hijackers. He came into our firm to open an account with us. I was the one who opened the account. When I went into the back office to get the manager to sign off I told my manager that I had major misgivings about this guy. He was sitting with 3 other coworkers. I think my actual words were "this guy is a terrorist". However, I had no evidence other than my gut. I would have certainly gotten a bad write up about this event had it not been for 9/11. That was when we learned that he in fact was one of the terrorists. The FBI directed us to send the file to them.

So this story has been something that I have followed closely from day 1 and I do appreciate the added Biblical references. I am most impressed that St. Paul's was where the new nation was consecrated (I knew that Washington had gone there after the inauguration because a plaque outside the church explains that) and uprooting the sycamore at St. Paul's at the time that the towers fell has so much more meaning.

I guess there are three ways someone can respond:

You could scoff -- US is not a Christian country, these events are not harbingers of God's judgment, etc.

You could repent --

Or you could do nothing and just hopes it all goes away. Too afraid to scoff lest you incur God's judgment, too drugged to repent.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

On 9/11 I had to walk out of Manhattan and as I crossed the bridge and looked back a huge pillar of smoke was rising from where the Twin towers were...

A couple of days after 9/11, I was looking at a satellite photo of NYC from space, showing the column of smoke rising through the atmosphere and into the troposphere. Most of the photo covered the land area of NJ/NYC/CT, but much of the photo showed water (the Atlantic Ocean). As I was looking at the photo, I remembered that quote from Revelation 18, of the ships' captains looking on from afar, seeing the smoke rise, and mourning how in one moment the great city fell.

11 "The merchants of the earth cry and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargo anymore. 12 No one buys their cargo of gold, silver, gems, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, bright red cloth, all kinds of citron wood, articles made of ivory and very costly wood, bronze, iron, marble, 13 cinnamon, spices, incense, perfume, frankincense, wine, olive oil, flour, wheat, cattle, sheep, horses, wagons, slaves (that is, humans). 14 'The fruit you craved is gone. All your luxuries and your splendor have disappeared. No one will ever find them again.' 15 "Frightened by her torture, the merchants who had become rich by selling these things will stand far away. They will cry and mourn, 16 saying, 'How horrible, how horrible for that important city which was wearing fine linen, purple clothes, bright red clothes, gold jewelry, gems, and pearls. 17 In one moment all this wealth has been destroyed!' Every ship's captain, everyone who traveled by ship, sailors, and everyone who made their living from the sea stood far away. 18 When they saw the smoke rise from her raging fire, they repeatedly cried out, 'Was there ever a city as important as this?' 19 Then they threw dust on their heads and shouted while crying and mourning, 'How horrible, how horrible for that important city. Everyone who had a ship at sea grew rich because of that city's high prices. In one moment it has been destroyed!'

I never heard anyone question why terrorists wanted to attack those 2 buildings. Why not a corn silo in Iowa? Why not the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam or Mount Rushmore? Maybe nobody questioned it because it was self-evident. Think about the three words denoting that cluster of buildings: The Center of World Trade. Revelation 18 is appropos: "wheat, cattle, ivory, fine linen and jewels..." etc etc ad infinitum.

Now because of my study on what was happening in Sudan I knew that Iraq and Al Qaida were two very different entities. I also knew that justifying an attack on Iraq because of human rights abuses was complete hypocrisy since the two biggest abusers by Amnesty international's account were our two allies: Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. So I knew the US was responding with defiance...

There was a photo on the front page of the New York Times about a week after we invaded Afghanistan. The picture was of a big map of the Middle East on the wall in Taliban Headquarters. Everywhere the U.S. military had a presence there was a U.S. flag pinned to the map. There were probably a dozen flags pinned there. Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Pakistan, Kuwait, UAE, Mediterranean Sea, Somalia, Oman, Qatar, Persian Gulf, etc.

I was looking at the photo of that map and I realized that in the mind-set of the Taliban, the U.S. had already invaded the Middle East. One great tragedy of our foreign policy is that we (U.S.) thought that because we have more guns, we don't have to consider (i.e. respect) what the other guy is thinking; what his/her value set consists of, etc. If you don't agree with us, and respond "apropriately", we will come in and shoot you.

In that sense, I have been repenting, continually, for our empty commercialism, our futile tweets and facebook posts of what we ate for breakfast. I repent for the fact that 4 sets of terrorists on airplanes caused our country to abandon decades of fairly successful foreign policy (i.e. "containment"), and become a shoot-first nation.

(For U.S. policy of 'Containment', see e.g. http://future.state.gov/when/timelin...ntainment.html )

I have already told the story of the fundamentalist church where I met in 2002/2003 whose pastor was rabid to invade Iraq and "christianize" that nation. Believe me, I think there is plenty to repent of.

I guess there are three ways someone can respond:

You could scoff -- US is not a Christian country, these events are not harbingers of God's judgment, etc.

You could repent --

Or you could do nothing and just hopes it all goes away.

What I scoff at is sloppy scholarship. Most religious polemicists I have read are too sure of themselves, or too afraid of the truth, to consider other viewpoints. They don't admit any weakness to their argument. They don't consider alternative explanations. Etc. And that goes for a lot of non-religious ones as well. I don't know if you ever saw the video "Loose Change" which basically said the attacks on the twin towers & Pentagon was a hoax to steal gold, or some such.

Even if their charges were credible, the whole thing was so sloppily done and insulting to my intelligence that I simply could not sit through it. I am not an 8-year old. Please don't talk to me as if I were. If you want me to respect your ideas please don't treat me with such a lack of respect.

If I too quickly lumped Cahn with such people, I apologize. I liked your list posted under "escapedfromthecurse".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

In that sense, I have been repenting, continually, for our empty commercialism, our futile tweets and facebook posts of what we ate for breakfast. I repent for the fact that 4 sets of terrorists on airplanes caused our country to abandon decades of fairly successful foreign policy (i.e. "containment"), and become a shoot-first nation.

It's probably best not to display liberal evaluations about US foreign policy on this thread. Some of us might be other-wise minded.

Containment was a cold-war policy against the Soviets. Had they attacked the trade towers and the pentagon, we would have nuked all of Moscow.

That said, I do appreciate your posts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

What I scoff at is sloppy scholarship. Most religious polemicists I have read are too sure of themselves, or too afraid of the truth, to consider other viewpoints. They don't admit any weakness to their argument. They don't consider alternative explanations. Etc. And that goes for a lot of non-religious ones as well. I don't know if you ever saw the video "Loose Change" which basically said the attacks on the twin towers & Pentagon was a hoax to steal gold, or some such.

Even if their charges were credible, the whole thing was so sloppily done and insulting to my intelligence that I simply could not sit through it. I am not an 8-year old. Please don't talk to me as if I were. If you want me to respect your ideas please don't treat me with such a lack of respect.

If I too quickly lumped Cahn with such people, I apologize. I liked your list posted under "escapedfromthecurse".

aron, wouldn't it have been better just to provide us with something better than to insult the poster with claims of "sloppy scholarship?"

[OBW]

In that day, many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not mention you in our Declaration of Independence and follow you in our Constitution? Did not our forefathers create a charter of great religious consequence when coming to this great land? Did we not declare our belief in your providence as we mentioned you in at least one inaugural address? Did we not act in righteousness when we defended your word against the infidels of the North (or South). Aren't we the ones who have declared that our nation was Christian?"

And I will respond, "Who made you the declarer of covenants? When did I come to you and make such a covenant? When did I make any declarations concerning your little kingdom? Depart from me you who twist my declarations to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and to the nation of Israel as if your will can cause those blessing to become yours by efforts of your own. You who curse the prostitutes and sinners among you. Who disdain your homeless. Who dare to do all of this in my name."

"Depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

- - - -

This may be too much. But I believe that we are presuming way beyond anything that we have the reach to claim. Other than the reality that some will hear those kinds of stern words concerning obvious lack of love for neighbor, the rest is somewhat fantasy.

But no more fantasy than the claim that we can unilaterally cause this nation to be blessed by our declaration that it is so. No nation on earth can lay claim to the covenant that God made with Israel all those years ago. There is serious question as to whether the current Israel can claim all that was enjoyed by its predecessor. But whether they can or can not, we surely cannot.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

In that day, many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not mention you in our Declaration of Independence and follow you in our Constitution? Did not our forefathers create a charter of great religious consequence when coming to this great land? Did we not declare our belief in your providence as we mentioned you in at least one inaugural address? Did we not act in righteousness when we defended your word against the infidels of the North (or South). Aren't we the ones who have declared that our nation was Christian?"

And I will respond, "Who made you the declarer of covenants? When did I come to you and make such a covenant? When did I make any declarations concerning your little kingdom? Depart from me you who twist my declarations to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and to the nation of Israel as if your will can cause those blessing to become yours by efforts of your own. You who curse the prostitutes and sinners among you. Who disdain your homeless. Who dare to do all of this in my name."

"Depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."

- - - -

This may be too much.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by OBW

But I believe that we are presuming way beyond anything that we have the reach to claim.

What are "we" presuming?

Originally Posted by OBW

Other than the reality that some will hear those kinds of stern words concerning obvious lack of love for neighbor, the rest is somewhat fantasy.

But no more fantasy than the claim that we can unilaterally cause this nation to be blessed by our declaration that it is so.

Who said that?

Originally Posted by OBW

No nation on earth can lay claim to the covenant that God made with Israel all those years ago.

I was not aware that anyone had tried to lay claim to that covenant.

Originally Posted by OBW

There is serious question as to whether the current Israel can claim all that was enjoyed by its predecessor. But whether they can or can not, we surely cannot.

I have no idea what this post has to do with Cahn's speech or his book. He was at a prayer breakfast on the day of the inauguration with the express purpose of praying for God to bless the nation, according to Paul's word (1Timothy 2:1-2). Surely if you pray for God's blessing you must do so with the faith that God will answer. To point out that this is not the first time that these prayers had been made, especially to refer to the prayers made on the first inauguration is certainly relevant. To say that earlier prayers for God's blessing had been answered is also quite reasonable.

Did I listen to a different speech? Can you give me the offending quote from his speech.

Thanks

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

aron, wouldn't it have been better just to provide us with something better than to insult the poster with claims of "sloppy scholarship?"

Ohio, I am not selling my ideas on the market for lucre. Therefore I don't hold my ideas to the same standards. My ideas are opinions, which you will probably notice I do (at least occasionally) try to provide alternatives for, as well as pointing out their possible shortcomings.

But if I had my own publishing house, website, pastorate, YouTube channel or whatnot hopefully I would hopefully do even better than that. I myself make no claims other than being a rank amateur. What bugs me are rank amateurs posing as teachers, guides, apostles, and prophets.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Ohio, I am not selling my ideas on the market for lucre. Therefore I don't hold my ideas to the same standards. My ideas are opinions, which you will probably notice I do (at least occasionally) try to provide alternatives for, as well as pointing out their possible shortcomings.

But if I had my own publishing house, website, pastorate, YouTube channel or whatnot hopefully I would hopefully do even better than that. I myself make no claims other than being a rank amateur. What bugs me are rank amateurs posing as teachers, guides, apostles, and prophets.

At this point aron I'm not sure what you are trying to say. At first I thought you were scolding ZNP for sloppy scholarship regarding his comment, "I guess there are three ways someone can respond: ... "

Or perhaps you were just venting about Bush era politics in the aftermath of 911, as if it were he who subsequently placed troops in a "dozen" places on the Mideast map in violation of the long-standing policy of "containment," which could be considered sloppy scholarship.

Or perhaps, based on some sloppy scholarship, that "rabid" pastor you used to know prayed that Iraq might be "Christianized." Btw, many missionaries did go to Iraq in those days. I personally know one from our young people's group who went to Kurdistan. We prayed much for him.

[OBW]

Z,

I have never said to refrain from praying for the nation. And if you are only focused on Cahn's actual call to prayer, then you might not have any complaint.

But the first half was a run-up to the call to prayer based on the assumption that, like Israel, America was founded in the same manner. And that things like the Mayflower compact, the first inaugural address, and many other statements constituted a basis for Israel-like blessings that we should be able to pray back into existence.

In effect, these historical documents, speeches, etc., are being treated like a contract between America and God upon which we can be blessed. And returning to that state is being treated like a "first love." We love that country so much better than the one we have now. We have the most tolerant country ever (or at least nearly so) and yet we have to have more. It is consuming us. We are willing to redirect the thrust of our prayers to get it back.

I am all for praying for peace within our borders and with the rest of the world. I am for praying for a turn in the minds of those who would call unrighteousness righteousness. I am for prayer to turn hearts from wickedness to God. But even if there is a true revival, I do not dare treat it as some kind of special blessing from God on the nation, but on those who turn back to Him.

We are sojourners in a foreign land. It may be a reasonably favorable land, but it is not the kingdom of God. It is the kingdom of the world. No matter how good an inaugural address is, how righteous the Mayflower compact was, how many references there were to God in various other documents or how many times meetings of the fledgling government were opened with prayer — even of some length — it is a secular nation. No amount or prayer can put on the nation a label that does not apply to all of its citizens. And "followers of God" does not apply to nearly all of them now.

Or even then. They may have had a better percentage. Or at least so if you take into account the fact that much of the major philosophy of the day was Judeo-Christian based. But while a valid study of the scripture is rightly a branch of philosophy, a philosophy merely based upon its tenets does not a Christian make. And there was plenty of that in play in that day and age. Pascal's wager was relatively new and probably was part of some amount of the apparent "belief" of some whose lives did not seem to measure up. Probably a lot of mental hedging of bets.

And I have no problem with them having written our founding documents and leading us into the next century as a nation rather than as a collection of squabbling, independent states.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Z,

I have never said to refrain from praying for the nation. And if you are only focused on Cahn's actual call to prayer, then you might not have any complaint.

But the first half was a run-up to the call to prayer based on the assumption that, like Israel, America was founded in the same manner. And that things like the Mayflower compact, the first inaugural address, and many other statements constituted a basis for Israel-like blessings that we should be able to pray back into existence.

I did not listen to the speech until after reading the debate on it. Therefore I was looking specifically for this and found that the speech was very nuanced and never said this. He used Israel as an example of how God can both bless and discipline a nation. He said that the US is the most blessed nation in human history, but never made a connection to God's covenant with Israel as though the US has a special covenant with God and he never insinuated that either. The point I got is that if you pray for God's blessings then you have to also expect God's discipline. Washington's inaugural address and the subsequent consecration of the New nation were evidence that many had prayed for God's blessing, as further evidenced by a prayer breakfast on the morning of the inauguration for the blessings of God.

His contention is that 9/11 was the harbinger of God's judgment. On the surface that seems like the kind of thing that many false teachers would use to sell books. However, his 9 harbingers based on Isaiah 9:10 are very compelling.

Originally Posted by OBW

In effect, these historical documents, speeches, etc., are being treated like a contract between America and God upon which we can be blessed. And returning to that state is being treated like a "first love." We love that country so much better than the one we have now. We have the most tolerant country ever (or at least nearly so) and yet we have to have more. It is consuming us. We are willing to redirect the thrust of our prayers to get it back.

Yes, he contends that we have removed and erased God from our national psyche, and this is strongly related to God's judgment. His major example was 50 million abortions. This is why I used the verse reference that I did to show that abortions were the basis for God to give the good land to Israel and drive the nations that were there out. 50 million abortions is a strong basis for God's judgment. The NT is clear, God is the one who raises up kingdoms and overthrows them.

Originally Posted by OBW

I am all for praying for peace within our borders and with the rest of the world. I am for praying for a turn in the minds of those who would call unrighteousness righteousness. I am for prayer to turn hearts from wickedness to God. But even if there is a true revival, I do not dare treat it as some kind of special blessing from God on the nation, but on those who turn back to Him.

We are sojourners in a foreign land. It may be a reasonably favorable land, but it is not the kingdom of God. It is the kingdom of the world. No matter how good an inaugural address is, how righteous the Mayflower compact was, how many references there were to God in various other documents or how many times meetings of the fledgling government were opened with prayer — even of some length — it is a secular nation. No amount or prayer can put on the nation a label that does not apply to all of its citizens. And "followers of God" does not apply to nearly all of them now.

Once again, I listened carefully and there was not any suggestion that I picked up that this nation is "the kingdom or God".

According to my reading of the US constitution there is no law that makes abortion legal. However, I do feel there is a law that prohibits the federal government from legalizing abortion. The freedom of religion, as a right, says that the US government will not make any law that prohibits the worship of God. I think the verses that I have quoted as well as many others in the OT make it very clear that sacrificing your child or your seed to Molech (God of fornication) or Baal (your career) is something that inhibits the free worship of our God in this country. Therefore, according to the Constitution the Federal government has no right to legalize it, especially in the way they did with a Supreme Court ruling which essentially makes it a law on some bogus explanation. Abortion is something that each state should decide for themselves. That would not make us any less of a "secular nation".

Originally Posted by OBW

Or even then. They may have had a better percentage. Or at least so if you take into account the fact that much of the major philosophy of the day was Judeo-Christian based. But while a valid study of the scripture is rightly a branch of philosophy, a philosophy merely based upon its tenets does not a Christian make. And there was plenty of that in play in that day and age. Pascal's wager was relatively new and probably was part of some amount of the apparent "belief" of some whose lives did not seem to measure up. Probably a lot of mental hedging of bets.

And I have no problem with them having written our founding documents and leading us into the next century as a nation rather than as a collection of squabbling, independent states.

So then we cannot pray for God's blessing because only a minority of citizens are "followers of God"? I already gave you the verse that God blessed the Egyptian household that Joseph was in for Joseph's sake. Surely Joseph was a minority, but he was a "follower of God" and that was sufficient. Now if God can bless Egypt for Joseph's sake and almost sink a ship for Jonah's sake, I think it is very clear that God can judge this nation for keeping silent while an unimaginable slaughter is going on.

[ZNPaaneah]

The dissenting opinion by the two justices that voted against Roe v Wade

I find nothing in the language or history of the Constitution to support the Court's judgment. The Court simply fashions and announces a new constitutional right for pregnant women and, with scarcely any reason or authority for its action, invests that right with sufficient substance to override most existing state abortion statutes. The upshot is that the people and the legislatures of the 50 States are constitutionally disentitled to weigh the relative importance of the continued existence and development of the fetus, on the one hand, against a spectrum of possible impacts on the woman, on the other hand. As an exercise of raw judicial power, the Court perhaps has authority to do what it does today; but, in my view, its judgment is an improvident and extravagant exercise of the power of judicial review that the Constitution extends to this Court.

To my opinion it is ridiculous to argue that the framers of the constitution were including the right to an abortion to the "right to privacy". Second, the freedom of religion trumps this anyway. I agree with the dissenting opinion. This is something that should be left to the States to decide. That way if you disagree with the decision you can move. I don't live in Nevada and I don't live in Utah.

Why doesn't the "right to privacy" extend to prostitution, a "don't ask don't tell" kind of ruling. Or why doesn't it extend to polygamy.

Laws should be legislated, not imposed by 7 justices.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The dissenting opinion by the two justices that voted against Roe v Wade

I find nothing in the language or history of the Constitution to support the Court's judgment. The Court simply fashions and announces a new constitutional right for pregnant women and, with scarcely any reason or authority for its action, invests that right with sufficient substance to override most existing state abortion statutes. The upshot is that the people and the legislatures of the 50 States are constitutionally disentitled to weigh the relative importance of the continued existence and development of the fetus, on the one hand, against a spectrum of possible impacts on the woman, on the other hand. As an exercise of raw judicial power, the Court perhaps has authority to do what it does today; but, in my view, its judgment is an improvident and extravagant exercise of the power of judicial review that the Constitution extends to this Court.

To my opinion it is ridiculous to argue that the framers of the constitution were including the right to an abortion to the "right to privacy". Second, the freedom of religion trumps this anyway. I agree with the dissenting opinion. This is something that should be left to the States to decide. That way if you disagree with the decision you can move. I don't live in Nevada and I don't live in Utah.

Why doesn't the "right to privacy" extend to prostitution, a "don't ask don't tell" kind of ruling. Or why doesn't it extend to polygamy.

Laws should be legislated, not imposed by 7 justices.

Too true.

How about that. We agree on something. (Probably won't be the last time either.)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Containment was a cold-war policy against the Soviets. Had they attacked the trade towers and the pentagon, we would have nuked all of Moscow.

Iraq didn't attack the trade towers or the pentagon. Yet we invaded anyway, on the flimsiest of manufactured pretenses. That was not containment; that was aggression, pure and simple. And when U.S. personnel couldn't find anything, once in Iraq, to justify our aggression, we re-worded our mission: suddenly GW Bush decided the Iraqi invasion was about despotism and "freedom". If so, why not invade Cuba as well, and North Korea also? Not enough oil, there?

Again, the well-served 'containment' idea of "Don't attack us because if you do we can and will make you pay" became "We're having a crisis of self-confidence and need to attack someone".

And no, those comments were not related to the idea of "sloppy scholarship"; they were posted in affirmation of ZNP's point that after 9/11 our leaders didn't repent, but became even more hardened, intransigent, and bellicose.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

Iraq didn't attack the trade towers or the pentagon. Yet we invaded anyway, on the flimsiest of manufactured pretenses. That was not containment; that was aggression, pure and simple. And when U.S. personnel couldn't find anything, once in Iraq, to justify our aggression, we re-worded our mission; GW Bush decided the Iraqi invasion was about "freedom". If so, why not invade Cuba as well, and North Korea also? Not enough oil, there?

Again, the well-served 'containment' idea of "Don't attack us because if you do we can and will make you pay" became "We're having a fit of hubris and paranoia and are going to attack someone".

And no, those comments were not related to the idea of "sloppy scholarship"; they were posted in affirmation of ZNP's point that after 9/11 our leaders didn't repent, but became even more hardened, intransigent, and bellicose.

I do not agree with our going to war in Iraq and I agree with the idea that WMD and Human Rights were shabby explanations to hide the real reason.

That said, I think those that accuse the US of going to war over oil do not fairly represent the choice. Iraq has the largest natural reserves of oil second only to Saudi Arabia. Since Saudi Arabia has booby trapped their refineries with dirty bombs it would be crazy talk to invade that country. You might argue that lives should not be lost fighting over oil. A perfectly reasonable feeling. However, without sufficient oil the US economy would rapidly descend into anarchy. By rapidly it would only be a month or two. Just a slight crimp in the supply caused major upheavals in NYC after Sandy.

The entire city was shut down for a week because the Subway didn't run. Without the subway kids can't get to school, and when that domino falls so many other dominoes fall too. In my opinion a trillion dollars spent on wind energy would have helped this countries security much more than a trillion dollars spent in Iraq. That refers to both physical and economic security.

Wind energy creates manufacturing jobs and high tech jobs, it would have been a fantastic boost to our economy. But, hindsight is 20/20 and it would have been a very gutsy call and a very tough call to pull it off. The last time a president tried to take this course of action the oil companies manufactured a gas shortage and that president was out after 1 term. Also, wind would be replacing coal, not oil. So the investment would not impact an oil shortage until the country moves to hybrid/electric vehicles. It would have been a very gutsy move politically, economically and diplomatically. And, it would have required one extremely effective leader to successfully pull it off.

In the end this will be something the US as a nation will need to repent of. But leading a country in repentance requires real leadership.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

At this point aron I'm not sure what you are trying to say...

Well, I could also be held up as a sloppy and disjointed thinker and writer. Maybe I am just jealous of those who have also done so, and made such a good living at it! Mea culpa if I have not been clear.

What I was getting at (possibly unrelated to discussions of Jonathan Cahn!) was people like Hank Hanegraaf introducing Gretchen Passantino as a "world-renowned expert" in her CRI write-up on the Local Churches. Number one, world-renowned experts usually don't need to be introduced as such. They simply let their credentials do the talking. Number two, Hanegraaf, her co-worker, is not a good source for such an assessment. But unfortunately there are a lot of gullible rubes out there, and Hanegraaf is handsomely rewarded for making confident assertions to them.

Another example is the Living Stream Ministry-affiliated Local Churches touting the "rich ministry of Witness Lee". Number one, that is not very christian to puff yourself up thusly. If it's true, let your work do the talking. Number two, again we have a clear financial conflict of interest here. A group stands to profit if they can convince potential consumers how good the product/output of the "ministry" of Witness Lee is.

I think that good scholarship says: Here is an idea, a thought, an hypothesis: "X" causes "Y"; or "A" is equivalent to "B". One humbly enters this idea into the discussion not as if it were the final word. One admits that POSSIBLY others have valid ideas as well, perhaps somewhat different from this idea. One offers alternatives, and admits possible flaws. One looks for evidence.

My point was that a lot of Christian shepherds and teachers make a lot of money leading a lot of gullible sheep astray, by presenting them with and oversimplified, distorted gospel. Like cotton-candy sellers at the fair, they don't really care about your health, they just want sales. But to get sales they have to pretend they care about you.

Where Jonathan Cahn falls into this mercantilization of the Gospel I don't know. He seems to point to bothersome questions to a vague publisher: "Don't look at me; I'm only the author. I didn't market this book."

http://standupforthetruth.com/2012/0...ers-questions/

The only thing I really know is OBW wasn't impressed and I kind of think like OBW (I think) so I jumped in. Perhaps my input didn't help this thread and/or discussion. Again, mea culpa.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

...the investment [in wind power] would not impact an oil shortage until the country moves to hybrid/electric vehicles. It would have been a very gutsy move politically, economically and diplomatically. And, it would have required one extremely effective leader to successfully pull it off.

Well, it takes guts to be a leader. "They will welcome us with open arms"~ Dick Cheney. You have to have some brass, to put that stuff out there.

Either way, you are going to have leaders. The question is: leading where?

One small, positive comment on Romney: He was filmed at a fund-raiser in Florida talking about the "culture of entitlement" that has engulfed, and paralyzed, so much of our society. It cost him dearly at the polls, I believe. What politician would have the nerve to talk about the 300-lb gorilla in the room?

[Thankful Jane]

I finally have some time to post. Sorry this doesn't follow the previous posts well.

Originally Posted by OBW

Jane,

....And, unfortunately, you had something you wanted to say (that is probably very important). But you let someone who is pushing a ridiculous position say it for you. And as a result, you didn't say what you thought you were. You said what he said. You said all those things about "Christian Nation." You may not have intended it. But you did. And the only part of what he said that you really seem to have been aligned with is a need to repent....

Sometime we just don't have the way to express what we want to say. Find a better stand-in than Cahn.

Mike,

I didn’t post Cahn’s message to have someone speak for me. I posted it because it spoke to me. I think it spoke to me because I believe that God is (was and will be until time is no more) actively involved in the affairs of men and history. Cahn’s point was not that we should return to a prior blessing, but that we need to be warned that God’s judgment was on the horizon, even had begun. Cahn paralleled events that occurred during God’s judging of Israel with events that happened on 9/11, not just because it sounded like a plausible thesis, but because he had seen that there were stunning parallels to Isa 9:10.

To me, the point of Cahn’s message was a wake-up call concerning God’s judgment. The Bible is plain that God, after much longsuffering, does move His hand to judge. His judgment is always with the end goal of salvation and restoration. The Bible also shows that God gives fair (even overly fair) multiple warnings before He judges.

Furthermore, judgment is not limited to God’s people only. God even warned Nineveh, the capitol of Assyria, a gentile nation, by sending the prophet Jonah to preach to them about God’s impending judgment. The ruler and the people of Nineveh repented and God did not judge them. This shows that a nation doesn’t have to belong to God or be under God’s blessing, and then lose it, in order to become qualified for judgment (or warning). Also Nebucchadnezer (Babylonian king) was judged as an individual ruler (he went mad and was chained to a stump for a period of time) that he might be humbled, so that the “living might know that the Most High ruled in the kingdom of men.”

Back to Cahn: It was what he shared about Isa. 9:10 that primarily got my attention. (I thought that others who heard his message would be struck with the same thing. Instead, you started a discussion on this thread about there being no relationship between Israel, God’s blessing on the U.S., etc. You did this while saying that you had only listened the beginning of Cahn’s message, so you hadn’t heard what he said about Isaiah 9:10. I understand that it was hard for you to listen to him because you didn’t like his opening and where you thought he was headed with it.)

With regard to what Cahn said about Isa. 9:10, none of us can accurately or thoroughly explain history from God’s perspective, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t get glimpses of His involvement, if we are watching, which we are commanded to do when we are told to watch and pray (Mark 13:33). I think that Cahn, in what he shared about Isa 9:10, provides such a glimpse.

Isaiah 9:10 shows things that happened to Ephraim (the northern kingdom) and Samaria (it's capitol, I believe) as God began to judge them. This verse was the proud, stouthearted response of the northern kingdom to a first wave of God’s judgment which came by way of an attack from the Assyrians (which God allowed to happen by removing the hedge of protection from Israel.) The people of the northern kingdom responded to this attack by saying, “The bricks are fallen, but we will build with hewn stone; the sycamores are cut down, but we will put cedars in their place.” Because of this proud, defiant response, Isaiah tells them next that there will be another Assyrian invasion. “...For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.” Isaiah continues with prophecy about ever-increasing judgment against Ephraim.

Isn’t it possible that the reoccurrence in 2001 of specific things found in Isa. 9:10 are not coincidental and contain a message for us?

Ground zero, where Washington and others went to pray and dedicate America’s future to God immediately after Washington was inaugurated, was in New York, which was the US capitol at the time of Washington’s inauguration. On 9/12, Senate Majority Leader, Tom Daschle, quoted Isa. 9:10 saying that the US would rebuild, not realizing that this same word had been spoken by Israel as a word of defiance against an act of God’s judgment which had been sent to wake them up.

The only building that was left intact at ground zero was the little chapel on the spot where Washington’s prayer and dedication had taken place. The chapel had been shielded from falling debris by a sycamore tree which was hit and cut down by that debris. Also, just as in Israel, where sycamores were cut down by God's judgment and then were replaced with cedar trees, the ground zero sycamore was replaced with a cedar tree.

Also, as had taken place in the northern kingdom, where a hewn stone was laid for the building of a new edifice (referred to in one place as a tower), a hewn stone was placed at Ground Zero as a foundation stone for the rebuilding of a new tower, called the Freedom Tower. On the third anniversary of 9/11 (9-11-2004) Jonathan Edwards, another congressman, gave an entire speech built around Isa. 9:10. In it he talked about how America was doing just that—rebuilding with hewn stone and planting cedars. (He was apparently unaware of the fact that this had literally occurred with respect to 9/11.) There are other uncanny parallels in actual things that happened at the time of 9/11 which fit with Isa. 9:10. I cannot simply write them off as coincidence without some real consideration and serious prayer. (I wonder if you and others who have used the argument that America was not particularly blessed by God in order to be dismissive of Cahn’s message, took time before you began your argument to stop and ask God to show you if Cahn’s message was from Him. I have to admit that I didn’t pray such a prayer at first, but I have now, and trust that He will answer.)

Obviously, Cahn had nothing to do with the things that happened. Rather, he reported to people, like a messenger, what God had shown him regarding Isa. 9:10 and events related to 9/11. The fact is that these things happened, and in my opinion, because I have heard about them from someone acting as a watchman (this is how I heard Cahn refer to himself in an interview), I should give them serious, sober consideration as a possible warning from God. I should take extremely seriously the need to begin praying desperately for God to turn people on this earth to Himself (not to restore our nation to some prior state of blessing. Blessing is the inevitable result of people turning to God.)

As I sit here writing, I can’t help but remember that Israel rejected time and time again the prophets that God sent to warn them. Shouldn’t we be cautious lest we inadvertently be found in similar shoes?

I heard a testimony from someone (years before hearing the Cahn message) that when they saw the towers fall on 9/11, they heard in their heart, and believed it was from the Lord, “It has begun.” They testified to me that this meant to them “judgment has begun.”

On the day that I heard Cahn’s word about Isaiah 9:10, this was my experience:

1. I saw a curtain pulled back, revealing awe-inspiring evidence that God is living, active, and very involved in what is happening today in the big picture on this earth. I was reminded that He is a hands-on God. He is not just sitting in the heavens in His front row throne-seat watching things unfold. He is unfolding them. (The timing of the video was significant to me because I had been recently witness to God actively orchestrating some specific things from the heavens, as only He can do, in several interrelated situations to which I was party.)

2. God got my attention freshly that I needed to be more diligently watching and praying. In particular, praying for the latter rain of the Spirit to be poured out on this earth for convicting men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment--for the salvation of many, for the manifestation of the sons of God, and for the enemies of Christ to be seen where they belong, beneath the feet of Jesus.

Thankful Jane

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I finally have some time to post. Sorry this doesn't follow the previous posts well.




Mike,

I didn’t post Cahn’s message to have someone speak for me. I posted it because it spoke to me. I think it spoke to me because I believe that God is (was and will be until time is no more) actively involved in the affairs of men and history. Cahn’s point was not that we should return to a prior blessing, but that we need to be warned that God’s judgment was on the horizon, even had begun. Cahn paralleled events that occurred during God’s judging of Israel with events that happened on 9/11, not just because it sounded like a plausible thesis, but because he had seen that there were stunning parallels to Isa 9:10.

To me, the point of Cahn’s message was a wake-up call concerning God’s judgment. The Bible is plain that God, after much longsuffering, does move His hand to judge. His judgment is always with the end goal of salvation and restoration. The Bible also shows that God gives fair (even overly fair) multiple warnings before He judges.

Furthermore, judgment is not limited to God’s people only. God even warned Nineveh, the capitol of Assyria, a gentile nation, by sending the prophet Jonah to preach to them about God’s impending judgment. The ruler and the people of Nineveh repented and God did not judge them. This shows that a nation doesn’t have to belong to God or be under God’s blessing, and then lose it, in order to become qualified for judgment (or warning). Also Nebucchadnezer (Babylonian king) was judged as an individual ruler (he went mad and was chained to a stump for a period of time) that he might be humbled, so that the “living might know that the Most High ruled in the kingdom of men.”

Back to Cahn: It was what he shared about Isa. 9:10 that primarily got my attention. (I thought that others who heard his message would be struck with the same thing. Instead, you started a discussion on this thread about there being no relationship between Israel, God’s blessing on the U.S., etc. You did this while saying that you had only listened the beginning of Cahn’s message, so you hadn’t heard what he said about Isaiah 9:10. I understand that it was hard for you to listen to him because you didn’t like his opening and where you thought he was headed with it.)

With regard to what Cahn said about Isa. 9:10, none of us can accurately or thoroughly explain history from God’s perspective, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t get glimpses of His involvement, if we are watching, which we are commanded to do when we are told to watch and pray (Mark 13:33). I think that Cahn, in what he shared about Isa 9:10, provides such a glimpse.

Isaiah 9:10 shows things that happened to Ephraim (the northern kingdom) and Samaria (it's capitol, I believe) as God began to judge them. This verse was the proud, stouthearted response of the northern kingdom to a first wave of God’s judgment which came by way of an attack from the Assyrians (which God allowed to happen by removing the hedge of protection from Israel.) The people of the northern kingdom responded to this attack by saying, “The bricks are fallen, but we will build with hewn stone; the sycamores are cut down, but we will put cedars in their place.” Because of this proud, defiant response, Isaiah tells them next that there will be another Assyrian invasion. “...For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.” Isaiah continues with prophecy about ever-increasing judgment against Ephraim.

Isn’t it possible that the reoccurrence in 2001 of specific things found in Isa. 9:10 are not coincidental and contain a message for us?

Ground zero, where Washington and others went to pray and dedicate America’s future to God immediately after Washington was inaugurated, was in New York, which was the US capitol at the time of Washington’s inauguration. On 9/12, Senate Majority Leader, Tom Daschle, quoted Isa. 9:10 saying that the US would rebuild, not realizing that this same word had been spoken by Israel as a word of defiance against an act of God’s judgment which had been sent to wake them up.

The only building that was left intact at ground zero was the little chapel on the spot where Washington’s prayer and dedication had taken place. The chapel had been shielded from falling debris by a sycamore tree which was hit and cut down by that debris. Also, just as in Israel, where sycamores were cut down by God's judgment and then were replaced with cedar trees, the ground zero sycamore was replaced with a cedar tree.

Also, as had taken place in the northern kingdom, where a hewn stone was laid for the building of a new edifice (referred to in one place as a tower), a hewn stone was placed at Ground Zero as a foundation stone for the rebuilding of a new tower, called the Freedom Tower. On the third anniversary of 9/11 (9-11-2004) Jonathan Edwards, another congressman, gave an entire speech built around Isa. 9:10. In it he talked about how America was doing just that—rebuilding with hewn stone and planting cedars. (He was apparently unaware of the fact that this had literally occurred with respect to 9/11.) There are other uncanny parallels in actual things that happened at the time of 9/11 which fit with Isa. 9:10. I cannot simply write them off as coincidence without some real consideration and serious prayer. (I wonder if you and others who have used the argument that America was not particularly blessed by God in order to be dismissive of Cahn’s message, took time before you began your argument to stop and ask God to show you if Cahn’s message was from Him. I have to admit that I didn’t pray such a prayer at first, but I have now, and trust that He will answer.)

Obviously, Cahn had nothing to do with the things that happened. Rather, he reported to people, like a messenger, what God had shown him regarding Isa. 9:10 and events related to 9/11. The fact is that these things happened, and in my opinion, because I have heard about them from someone acting as a watchman (this is how I heard Cahn refer to himself in an interview), I should give them serious, sober consideration as a possible warning from God. I should take extremely seriously the need to begin praying desperately for God to turn people on this earth to Himself (not to restore our nation to some prior state of blessing. Blessing is the inevitable result of people turning to God.)

As I sit here writing, I can’t help but remember that Israel rejected time and time again the prophets that God sent to warn them. Shouldn’t we be cautious lest we inadvertently be found in similar shoes?

I heard a testimony from someone (years before hearing the Cahn message) that when they saw the towers fall on 9/11, they heard in their heart, and believed it was from the Lord, “It has begun.” They testified to me that this meant to them “judgment has begun.”

On the day that I heard Cahn’s word about Isaiah 9:10, this was my experience:

1. I saw a curtain pulled back, revealing awe-inspiring evidence that God is living, active, and very involved in what is happening today in the big picture on this earth. I was reminded that He is a hands-on God. He is not just sitting in the heavens in His front row throne-seat watching things unfold. He is unfolding them. (The timing of the video was significant to me because I had been recently witness to God actively orchestrating some specific things from the heavens, as only He can do, in several interrelated situations to which I was party.)

2. God got my attention freshly that I needed to be more diligently watching and praying. In particular, praying for the latter rain of the Spirit to be poured out on this earth for convicting men of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment--for the salvation of many, for the manifestation of the sons of God, and for the enemies of Christ to be seen where they belong, beneath the feet of Jesus.

Thankful Jane

Nice response.

It is mind boggling to me that people can talk about praying for our leaders, and praying for God's blessing, etc. Yet if anyone suggests that God responds, or that in addition to blessing He might also judge, these very same ones reject that out of hand.

It would be pointless to even have the OT accounts if God does not continue to move and act. This idea is not something of the OT, it is clearly stated in Acts that our God is a sovereign God. Jesus is Lord indicates that nothing takes place that He does not allow.

If you think the formation of this country is under God's sovereignty or that the reformation of Israel is under God's sovereignty how can you not believe 911, or Hurricane Katrina are also under his sovereignty.

Now I can understand if someone supported the Iraq war thinking that they were somehow the ones behind the terrorist on 911, though you should now be clear that was not the case. I can also understand if you honestly felt we invaded Iraq due to WMD's, yet again that idea should have long ago been dispelled. Now my question is this, all those people who were killed under false pretenses deserve God's righteous judgment. Is God going to sit by idly? On a similar note, if God does not stand up in judgment on behalf of the 50 million aborted babies, who will? Isn't He the God of the fatherless?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Nice response.

It is mind boggling to me that people can talk about praying for our leaders, and praying for God's blessing, etc. Yet if anyone suggests that God responds, or that in addition to blessing He might also judge, these very same ones reject that out of hand. ...

Yeah...bottom line:

Don't mess with Jane.

[OBW]

You sort of did let Cahn speak for you. You were sort of overwhelmed by that was going on inside and said you couldn't really describe it. So you gave us this link. So whatever it was you were trying to say, you really did leave it to him to describe.

Now since then, you have been more direct in speaking for yourself. But the continued references back to his speech and book are, to me, evidence of a level of misdirection. Not that you are misdirecting. But have been misdirected.

The last time a government sort of like ours allowed too much coziness with its preferred religion, the result was Pilgrims and others leaving for a new place. I'm all for praying. Even for the nation. And for repenting.

But the nation is not going to repent. It is a melting pot of Christians of many different kinds, including many who claim Christianity, but it is social, not religious. It includes those who claim different gods. And those who claim no god but themselves.

The nation was founded in such a way that many whose lives are centered around what Christian morality would call a moral sin are instead allowed to live in the way they chose. And it is the allowance of those lives that continues to allow us to live as we see fit. At some level, this nation is living as each man thinks is right in his own eyes. A familiar phrase. If this were Israel after Joshua, it would be the cause of times of punishment, followed by a rescue at the leadership of a Judge.

But this is not Israel. It is simply a pretty good kingdom of the world. It actually allows us as Christians to live extremely peaceful lives. Maybe we would be better off with less peace, less tolerance for us, and then have to prove with our living that there is something worthy about the God we serve. Instead, we argue that some book that the world has no interest in grants us some kind of right to a better nation.

It does not. It promises us hardship and persecution. We aren't even close to being persecuted. Unless you think the inability to force someone to listen to your prayer counts as persecution. That the inability to make abortion illegal is persecution.

Not saying that these things are your concerns. But it is what I hear around me constantly. It seems that it is the sins of the nation that caused it to be attacked in such a way. If that is the case, why are virtually every other nation of the earth not entirely destroyed? Aren't they even worse?

Or are we now back to actually accepting Cahn's argument that America is being judged like Israel for its sins. A nation with no contract with God being treated like a historical nation that did have such a contract.

This is a very ethnocentric (and egocentric) position. And one without precedence. Since someone suggested a parallel with Nineveh, where was the prophet before the judgment? Even Isaiah 9:10 was not just the result of the Northern kingdom presuming that their punishment was not from God. They had prophets speaking to them for years.

In our case, we only have the Word of God being spoken to His people. And we, like all Christians everywhere, are tasked with living a life that is worthy of the gospel and being ready to speak if asked what it is that is different. No charges to indicate that we have any ability to withhold the social and political currents of the world. Yes, we are to pray for peace. But the nations we inhabit are not imbued with special blessing for any reason. (There is even some consideration that the references to being a friend of Israel providing a benefit is suspect since that Israel no longer exists.) On what basis do we say otherwise outside of a self-declared covenant with God (that those at the time would possibly laugh at the idea that it was any such a thing).

If God spoke to us through the events of 9/11 and others like it, it should only be to stop trusting in chariots and horses — in kingdoms and governments. Instead, trust in the name of the Lord our God. He is our rock and salvation. America is not. The alleged "Christian" history of the nation is not.

If there is a message in the events of the past 13 years, that is what I would find in it. And to some degree I do find that message there. But I do not need to dwell on 9/11, or the direction that the nation and government seem to be going with respect to so many things to continue to turn to God. That is my need. America is not my need. I appreciate it greatly. I would like it to be even better. But whether it is or is not is not what I have been charged with as a Christian. It is for me to live a life according to the Spirit. The meat of that thread is much more important to my life than this one.

[Cal]

OBW,

I love you brother and I appreciate your intelligence and contributions here. But I have to say that sometimes you bring to mind Oscar Wilde's definition of a cynic: a person who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Of course, that's a little harsh. I just said it brought it to mind. Not that you totally fit the description.

My feeling about the whole matter is this:

If what it takes to get people to pray is for someone to compare us to Israel and cajole us into believing we'll get a blessing much like we'd get if we had a contract with God like Israel and lived up to it--then I say more power to him.

The fact is if you obey God you will be blessed in many ways. Yes, we should expect persecution and suffering. But we should also expect blessing. God promised if we sought the kingdom first, our needs would be taken care of. That's a blessing. He told us if we had to lose our family to be faithful to him, he would replace it in this life and the next with many more people. That's a blessing.

The whole Bible is full of general declarations, both to people and nations, that if you follow God you will be blessed and taken care of, and if you don't you should not be surprised when you find yourself in a bad place.

Suppose America did have a turn to God. And suppose we did reap a blessing because of that. Is that so far-fetched? And if it did happen, what would be the point of continuing the academic argument that, no, technically we did not have a contract with God exactly like Israel's, even though the resultant blessing from obedience sure made it look like we did?

[OBW]

Igzy,

I think that cynic is not the right term, but it is not far off. I am skeptical. Not in a "debunking" way, but in a "show me why it is so" kind of way. There is plenty of proof for a lot.

Originally Posted by Igzy

My feeling about the whole matter is this:

Originally Posted by Igzy

If what it takes to get people to pray is for someone to compare us to Israel and cajole us into believing we'll get a blessing much like we'd get if we had a contract with God like Israel and lived up to it--then I say more power to him.

The fact is if you obey God you will be blessed in many ways.

This is generally true. And it is the people who obey God who receive this benefit. And obedience starts with belief. Now blessing on the believers may spill over to those around them. That is a wonderful position to be in as a non-believer — getting some overflow of the blessings God is bestowing on His people.

And I agree that sometimes it is like when Paul referred to those who were preaching the gospel for the purpose of making the authorities angry and taking it out on Paul (who they had in prison). As Paul said, the gospel got preached.

My concerns (and skepticism) are not pointed at We the Believers waking up from our slumber and complacency and repenting and praying like we always should. It is at an overlay of belief that causes the repentance to be for the sins of others and the prayer to be perpetually aimed at problems others are having.

Surely we are to pray for others and for their problems. But that is not the primary thrust of our prayer and repentance. The primary thrust should be related to our worship of God, to prayer for his will and kingdom, for our needs, in repentance for our errors in conjunction with our forgiveness of those who have wronged us, and our prayer for deliverance from evil and temptation. Sounds somehow familiar.

And it does not include a prayer of repentance for errors that are not ours.

We each spent some of our lives engaged with a system that insisted that everything that was outside of their version of "truth" was a waste of time. Throwing that off is not simply accepting that nothing is a waste of time or a misdirection. If we are encouraged to truly follow a different error, then we become lead by someone building with wood hay and stubble. If my assessment of the thrust of this whole thing is correct, Cahn is building with those poor materials. Now we are not the builders but the building. The "tried by fire" problem will be his. But that does not mean that we should not see the error and turn back to the truth.

The truth is about us believing in and obeying Christ. The result in this life is the fulfillment of the righteousness of the law. That righteous fulfillment is not in a nation, but in His people. Everywhere. We are here thinking that we need to pray some blessing back upon the nation. What about all those poor Christians who don't live in America? What is their lot in life? To be sojourners in a "foreign" land, looking for that city whose builder is God. And that city is not America.

All of our energies dwelling on the history of chapels and addresses is an effort in myths and genealogies. It does not result in God's economy, but in disputes. The answer is not to teach God's economy, but to teach what was taught by Jesus, none of which even hinted at this kind of emphasis in mental, physical, and/or spiritual energies on obtaining a blessing for a secular nation.

But you are right. This is enough. You complain that I push back at what has been put forward. I think I have just as legitimate a complaint that it was ever put forward. So the answer is to just let it go? To step aside and let nonsense continue because someone got their feelings hurt?

Someone gets their feelings hurt every time there is a significant difference of opinion about any of the issues discussed here. That is not the basis for silence.

But I have said enough. If there are no ears to hear, then so be it.

I can assure you that there are many Christians outside of this nation that absolutely do not want to see us get what this effort seeks. It means a renewed sense of national pride leading our efforts to Americanize the rest of the world, including their Christian experience. Just like Lee set out to make Christianity in America (and the rest of the world) look like what they created in China. Fortunately he failed. For our sakes, I hope this effort does as well.

Not that we don't return to regular repentance and regular prayer. Even habitual prayer and willful repentance at set times. That is a must.

But I need to repent for me. My errors are not about America. How I live out this life that is now within me is my desperate need. Whether the laws of America allow prayer in public schools has nothing to do with it.

[alwayslearning]

What I find particularly odd is tying the U.S. to the OT nation of Israel. The Church was born and thrived under persecution in the cauldron of the pagan Greco-Roman world. I'm happy that the U.S. has been influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition but I'm under no delusions about what the State is and what it's interests are. It has been wisely said that "The church as a tool is a church of fools." Anytime the State tries to co-opts the church into it's agenda I grow wary. And the more the politicians shout about "family values" and "I'm a Christian vote for me!" the more I tell myself to let's wait and see.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Igzy,

I think that cynic is not the right term, but it is not far off. I am skeptical. Not in a "debunking" way, but in a "show me why it is so" kind of way. There is plenty of proof for a lot.
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This is generally true. And it is the people who obey God who receive this benefit. And obedience starts with belief. Now blessing on the believers may spill over to those around them. That is a wonderful position to be in as a non-believer — getting some overflow of the blessings God is bestowing on His people.

And I agree that sometimes it is like when Paul referred to those who were preaching the gospel for the purpose of making the authorities angry and taking it out on Paul (who they had in prison). As Paul said, the gospel got preached.

My concerns (and skepticism) are not pointed at We the Believers waking up from our slumber and complacency and repenting and praying like we always should. It is at an overlay of belief that causes the repentance to be for the sins of others and the prayer to be perpetually aimed at problems others are having.

Surely we are to pray for others and for their problems. But that is not the primary thrust of our prayer and repentance. The primary thrust should be related to our worship of God, to prayer for his will and kingdom, for our needs, in repentance for our errors in conjunction with our forgiveness of those who have wronged us, and our prayer for deliverance from evil and temptation. Sounds somehow familiar.

And it does not include a prayer of repentance for errors that are not ours.

Do you agree with the teaching that Christians are going to rule over cities in the next age?

If you do agree then do you agree that Christians are being trained to rule in this age?

One other question, what part of "of the people, by the people and for the people" exonerates you from being responsible?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

What I find particularly odd is tying the U.S. to the OT nation of Israel. The Church was born and thrived under persecution in the cauldron of the pagan Greco-Roman world. I'm happy that the U.S. has been influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition but I'm under no delusions about what the State is and what it's interests are. It has been wisely said that "The church as a tool is a church of fools." Anytime the State tries to co-opts the church into it's agenda I grow wary. And the more the politicians shout about "family values" and "I'm a Christian vote for me!" the more I tell myself to let's wait and see.

Do you find it odd that Christians would have a prayer breakfast on the morning of the inauguration to pray for blessings for this country?

If not, what is odd about discussing the God who you are praying to? Since it is God who raises Kingdoms and causes others to fall doesn't it make sense to understand the basis for his judgment (which includes blessing)? Israel was blessed by God and they were also judged, isn't that a strong basis to say that if God is going to bless you then he might also discipline you as well?

The NT tells us to pray for the leaders and to obey those that have rule over us. We are also told that we are a light set on a hill. This implies that God intends to be Lord over all the Earth, not just the Christians, and that "every knee will bow". Since when did Christians become so limp wristed that they could justify shutting their eyes and ears to all unrighteousness?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

One might even argue that the arrogance of the U.S. leadership was precisely because they were deluded into the notion of 'American exceptionalism'. I remember hearing George W. Bush conclude a speech to Congress by solemnly intoning, "And may God bless America!" and watching Congress as they rose in a frenzy of huzzahs. This was during one of his speeches preparing them to rubber-stamp his invasion plans of Iraq.

What do you mean "one might"? That is precisely what the speech argued. His point was the 9/11 was the harbinger of God's judgment and instead of repentance the response was defiance. Same as Israel did many years ago.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Since it is God who raises Kingdoms and causes others to fall doesn't it make sense to understand the basis for his judgment (which includes blessing)? Israel was blessed by God and they were also judged, isn't that a strong basis to say that if God is going to bless you then he might also discipline you as well?

What is the basis for his judgement of a democratic free society that is not a monolithic theocracy?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The NT tells us to pray for the leaders and to obey those that have rule over us. We are also told that we are a light set on a hill. This implies that God intends to be Lord over all the Earth, not just the Christians, and that "every knee will bow".

We should be a light on the hill. Are we? Is that what the world sees when they see Christians? And of course every knee will bow. When do you think that will take place?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

What is the basis for his judgement of a democratic free society that is not a monolithic theocracy?

We are his creation. The same basis by which Egypt was judged. God is the father of the fatherless. The Egyptians killed the babies of the Israelites, God comes in and judges their first born. The same basis by which all governments are judged, based on the covenant with Noah. Government is responsible to deal with murder in a responsible way. If they fail to do so they will break the covenant. God said that killing babies was something He had not even imagined. It was the basis for taking the good land from the inhabitants and giving it to Israel. This "democratic free" society has legalized the assembly line slaughter of 50 million babies (oh yeah, right, they never did legalize that, 7 men said it would be OK, which really means it was decided by 3 of those men. These 7 men were never elected and they do not represent anyone but themselves. Had this been decided by a "democratically elected government" it would never have been legalized. Since when is a vote by 7 men to decide to kill 50 million babies the act of a "democratic free society").

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

We should be a light on the hill. Are we? Is that what the world sees when they see Christians? And of course every knee will bow. When do you think that will take place?

What is your point? I understand the statement that "every knee shall bow" to mean, better to bow your knee now than wait till later.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

We are his creation. The same basis by which Egypt was judged. God is the father of the fatherless. The Egyptians killed the babies of the Israelites, God comes in and judges their first born. The same basis by which all governments are judged, based on the covenant with Noah. Government is responsible to deal with murder in a responsible way. If they fail to do so they will break the covenant. God said that killing babies was something He had not even imagined. It was the basis for taking the good land from the inhabitants and giving it to Israel. This "democratic free" society has legalized the assembly line slaughter of 50 million babies (oh yeah, right, they never did legalize that, 7 men said it would be OK, which really means it was decided by 3 of those men. These 7 men were never elected and they do not represent anyone but themselves. Had this been decided by a "democratically elected government" it would never have been legalized. Since when is a vote by 7 men to decide to kill 50 million babies the act of a "democratic free society").

Anything else?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What is your point? I understand the statement that "every knee shall bow" to mean, better to bow your knee now than wait till later.

Now is obviously better than later but when will every knee bow?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Do you agree with the teaching that Christians are going to rule over cities in the next age?

If you do agree then do you agree that Christians are being trained to rule in this age?

One other question, what part of "of the people, by the people and for the people" exonerates you from being responsible?

I agree that there is an aspect of ruling in the next age. Or at least something that is best described as such.

But there is nothing in what I can read in scripture that indicates that our "efforts" here on earth are designed to train us for the age to come in that manner. I do not agree that we are simply being trained to "rule," especially in this age. In fact, I find plenty to tell me that we are not here for this world, to rule it or otherwise, other than to be salt and light, not movers and shakers.

As for the general statement that the government of the US is "of the people, by the people, and for the people" I do not find that I am responsible, but rather invited to participate. And even to the extent that I might take on responsibility with respect to some part of it, that does not make the "spiritual" aspect of that part my "responsibility" outside of my own personal exercise of spirituality.

Phrasing your argument as you did might work on the simpleminded. But it presupposes that Christians in America are being groomed to rule over cities. I guess all the rest of the poor Christian schmucks in the world are being groomed to rule over hovels and cattle stalls. They surely will never get the opportunity to be part of "of, by, and for the people," therefore lacking in training for ruling a city.

Or is it the character of those who will eventually rule rather than training in ruling that matters?

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What does any of this have to do with the message that this thread linked to, or to the book?

Cahn's message was on how 9/11 was a warning from God that was not heeded. My point on President Bush and the U.S. Congress invoking God's blessing as they prepared to invade Iraq was to show how they didn't hear the warning and repent. Quite the opposite.

9/11 was surely a wake-up call. I pray for the leaders of the U.S., and also for the leaders and the people of Germany and Japan and Haiti. Others may pray for Canada and Denmark, I don't know. If the story of a sycamore tree helps someone pray, wonderful. Everyone needs stories to make sense of the world.

BTW, I told a story of watching the smoke rise from the World Trade Center site in September 2001 and remembering the scene in Revelation 18, where the merchants stand off and wail as they watch the smoke as the city burns. Their riches have come to naught in one stroke. That also could have applied to Rome in 410 when the Visigoths sacked it. Or Tokyo when it was firebombed by U.S. B-29s. Etc.

Maybe that also was Cahn's point. Anyway, he sold a lot of copies of his book so I'm sure someone got helped.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I agree that there is an aspect of ruling in the next age. Or at least something that is best described as such.

But there is nothing in what I can read in scripture that indicates that our "efforts" here on earth are designed to train us for the age to come in that manner. I do not agree that we are simply being trained to "rule," especially in this age. In fact, I find plenty to tell me that we are not here for this world, to rule it or otherwise, other than to be salt and light, not movers and shakers.

As for the general statement that the government of the US is "of the people, by the people, and for the people" I do not find that I am responsible, but rather invited to participate. And even to the extent that I might take on responsibility with respect to some part of it, that does not make the "spiritual" aspect of that part my "responsibility" outside of my own personal exercise of spirituality.

Phrasing your argument as you did might work on the simpleminded. But it presupposes that Christians in America are being groomed to rule over cities. I guess all the rest of the poor Christian schmucks in the world are being groomed to rule over hovels and cattle stalls. They surely will never get the opportunity to be part of "of, by, and for the people," therefore lacking in training for ruling a city.

Or is it the character of those who will eventually rule rather than training in ruling that matters?

Fair enough, in this age Christians are supposed to be Light and Salt, let's work with that.

I thought Cahn's message was both light and salt.

Please explain why it you thought it wasn't.

The United States has a constitution which explains how laws are made in this country. For 7 men to short circuit that and say that one of the inalienable rights mentioned in the constitution is the right to kill your baby and keep that private is outrageous. There is no "right to an abortion" in the constitution. Why isn't shining a light on this considered "light"?

Salt kills germs. Isn't creeping fornication a germ? Isn't a society that exterminates 50 billion babies a "germ". Why shouldn't a word against this be considered "salt"?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And after all, God does love republicans and sinners (aka democrats.)

Nice, Ohio. Real nice!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

My concerns (and skepticism) are not pointed at We the Believers waking up from our slumber and complacency and repenting and praying like we always should. It is at an overlay of belief that causes the repentance to be for the sins of others and the prayer to be perpetually aimed at problems others are having.

Surely we are to pray for others and for their problems. But that is not the primary thrust of our prayer and repentance. The primary thrust should be related to our worship of God, to prayer for his will and kingdom, for our needs, in repentance for our errors in conjunction with our forgiveness of those who have wronged us, and our prayer for deliverance from evil and temptation. Sounds somehow familiar.

I can't take on your whole post because I don't have time. But I do want to take issue with this because to me its exemplary of what to me seems an error you make sometimes.

I guess I would call it an error of categorization--calling something one thing for the sake of argument when it could just as easily been called something else. In this case you are categorizing prayer for others as some kind of penance in their name.

I do not see that our prays for others and their repentance is a secondary type of prayer, even if they seem to include this kind of proxy repentance. To me praying that God's kingdom come and praying for repentance in others are very much the same thing. Where is God's kingdom to come but in the hearts of people? Angels streaming from heaven in glory with the Son of Man is the ultimate result of the the kingdom coming. But I think when Jesus said pray that God's kingdom come he wasn't talking about that, he was talking about the hearts of people repenting and submitting to God.

Now if you meant that our prayers are no ultimate substitute for the repentance of others, I agree. But at the same time an attitude of heartbreak and prayer because of the sins of others is not a bad thing. In fact, the Bible depicts this as a practice of Job.

'When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have [his children] purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.' Job 1:5

But, again, I think your attitude toward prayer is a little wrongheaded. I think praying for people and their problems (their problems of sin) is top shelf stuff. Otherwise, what do you mean by "your kingdom come?" Angels streaming in glory? That sounds a little like the LRC spiritualized indifference you often decry.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

The truth is about us believing in and obeying Christ. The result in this life is the fulfillment of the righteousness of the law. That righteous fulfillment is not in a nation, but in His people. Everywhere. We are here thinking that we need to pray some blessing back upon the nation. What about all those poor Christians who don't live in America? What is their lot in life? To be sojourners in a "foreign" land, looking for that city whose builder is God. And that city is not America.

I just found some more time

I agree with this. God is not a respecter of people. He could just as easily use any other nation, group or individual. Whoever will may come.

Yet... the fact is it does happen in some places, groups or individuals... and not others. And when it does, God calls those involved... chosen.

So saying the USA is chosen is no different than saying the LRC is chosen. It depends on what you mean by it. On the one hand, whoever will may come. On the other hand, some do and some don't. And God says the one who do come are chosen. What does that mean? I like to think it means glory to God.

But if you come and then become lazy and corrupt again and then rest on your "chosen-ness," let alone your "uniqueness" () then that is folly and hubris. That's what the LRC did and that's what the USA has done.

It's an honor to be chosen by God, but that doesn't justify an attitude of arrogant entitlement.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

But you are right. This is enough. You complain that I push back at what has been put forward. I think I have just as legitimate a complaint that it was ever put forward. So the answer is to just let it go? To step aside and let nonsense continue because someone got their feelings hurt?

Someone gets their feelings hurt every time there is a significant difference of opinion about any of the issues discussed here. That is not the basis for silence.

But I have said enough. If there are no ears to hear, then so be it.

You just keep pushing back. That's okay. And I'll keep telling you when I think you are being too academic. Deal?

Originally Posted by OBW

I can assure you that there are many Christians outside of this nation that absolutely do not want to see us get what this effort seeks. It means a renewed sense of national pride leading our efforts to Americanize the rest of the world, including their Christian experience. Just like Lee set out to make Christianity in America (and the rest of the world) look like what they created in China. Fortunately he failed. For our sakes, I hope this effort does as well.

I disagree with your assertion that God has no words for nations as wholes. The OT is full of them.

I think you heard something he didn't say. I just see a man trying to speak to a nation as a nation about Biblical principles. I don't see a man trying to stir up nationalism.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Salt kills germs. Isn't creeping fornication a germ? Isn't a society that exterminates 50 billion babies a "germ". Why shouldn't a word against this be considered "salt"?

That wasn't the only part of his message but OK...how would YOU write the laws against fornication and abortion? Please give us something concrete to work with!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It is cut and dry. There is no constitutional protection for abortion. Therefore the constitution is very clear, this is a matter for the States to decide. Each state should pass their own law. The Supreme court is not a legislative body, and the idea that abortion is protected by the constitution as a right to privacy is as ugly a lie as you could dredge up from the pit of hell.

Every state already has laws in place. If Roe ever were overturned, then all these state laws would once again be in effect.

[Cassidy]

"....replacement theologians cannot show anywhere in the Bible that God will ever permanently remove His blessings from them"

True, yet, today the land is filled with atheists. However, when the Lord returns visibly then will all Israel repent and the promised abundant blessings will be manifest.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I thought Cahn's message was both light and salt.

Please explain why it you thought it wasn't.

It doesn't qualify because it is not for the world, but for the church. But as such it is misdirecting us toward something that doesn't exist. It is aimed at eliminating certain sins from the public so that America can once again be blessed. (I disagree that the kind of position of being blessed ever existed, but that is his position.)

Salt and light is about us being God's image on the earth. Whether America is what Cahn thinks it ought to be, or is more like China in the darkest days of Communism, or Iran right now is totally irrelevant to us being salt and light.

If there is a need to repent and pray, it is for us to repent and pray concerning ourselves. We cannot repent for others or pray them into righteousness any more than we can pray them out of a Catholic purgatory. We can pray that the Spirit will work on people to open their eyes.

But if our goal is a blessed America, then it is a misguided goal. It makes America an idol. The idea seems so appealing. But it is making the improvement of our natural lives the center of our call to pray. If we get moved to pray beyond our own pitiful state, we should be praying for our willingness to live the justice that is commanded of us.

Instead, we are putting our prayer and efforts into fighting the sins of the world like abortions, gay marriage, etc. As I have said before, we are happy to suggest in song that they can come to God "Just as I Am" but we are otherwise going to insist that they straighten up or go to jail.

Now that is a position that exemplifies the Christianity that is demanding the return of the "Christian nation." It is not the Christianity that I believe we are called to by God and his Word.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

It doesn't qualify because it is not for the world, but for the church.

What? When the Lord said "let your light shine" that was for the church and not for the world? When He said to the disciples "you are a light set on a hill" that was for the church to see not the world? Likewise with the salt? You appear to have a completely different Bible from me. Did I misunderstand? Did you misspeak? Please explain.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

If there is a need to repent and pray, it is for us to repent and pray concerning ourselves. We cannot repent for others or pray them into righteousness any more than we can pray them out of a Catholic purgatory. We can pray that the Spirit will work on people to open their eyes.

You can't have it both ways. If you want the US to be a free democracy with a government by the people, for the people and of the people. Then the people must bear responsibility for that government and those laws. You and I are responsible for the laws of this land. Now, if like Ghandi you were light and salt you are not responsible for the actions of British imperialism. You are responsible for your response to those actions.

I have never suggested. nor did Cahn, that we are to repent on behalf of the director of Planned Parenthood. You have created this pathetic little straw man.

[Thankful Jane]

I have a little time in my day, so I’d like to back-track and respond to a few statements made in an earlier post.

Originally Posted by OBW

Before Israel came to be, God made a covenant with Abraham to make a nation out of him, and beyond that, to bless the world through that nation. Who did God woo to leave their people to move the promised land and be made into a nation according to God’s promise? I can’t see even a huge stretch of the available facts getting to that comparison.

In the interest of biblical accuracy, in Genesis 17:4-6, God said to Abraham,

“As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. [5] Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. [6] And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.”

In Romans 4:17-18, Paul repeated this saying,

“(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. [18] Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.”

Also, Jacob, in his blessing on Ephraim (Joseph’s second son) makes another such statement:

“And his father [Jacob] refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he [Manasseh] also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother [Ephraim] shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.” (Genesis 48:19)

I am not saying I understand what these references to "many nations" or a "multitude of nations" mean, but someone brought them to my attention several years ago. In light of them, it isn’t accurate to say “God made a covenant with Abraham to make a nation out of him.”

The above statements are just the plain word of the Bible. God said them, not me. He said many nations would come out of Abraham and specifically a multitude of nations would come out of Ephraim.

A multitude of nations coming out of Abraham could be explained by the fact that Abraham had Ishmael by Hagar, who was an Egyptian, and nations came out of Ishmael. However, this explanation does not account for Jacob saying concerning Ephraim that his seed would become a multitude of nations.

Originally Posted by OBW

Israel did not become blessed because they decided to consecrate to God. They were blessed because God chose them as a people.

If they were blessed because God chose them as a people, then part of that blessed people was the seed of Ephraim, who became a multitude of nations, and accordingly, those nations would be blessed also.

I do not know what this means, but it means something. I’m just putting out some food for thought here J.

[OBW]

Overextension and overapplication. Israel is Israel. Remember that Ishmael was also born of Abraham. And he has become many nations as well. But to presume a blessing upon Ishmael's descendents in the same way as Israel is a serious misunderstanding.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by OBW

Overextension and overapplication. Israel is Israel. Remember that Ishmael was also born of Abraham. And he has become many nations as well. But to presume a blessing upon Ishmael's descendents in the same way as Israel is a serious misunderstanding.

I have no idea what you mean by overextension and overapplication. I made no application. If you are going to respond, it would be nice if you would respond to what I actually wrote in my post.

It strikes me wrongly for you to ask me to remember something that I had already pointed out in the post (about Ishmael).

Please do not ascribe ideas to me that I did not write and characterize them as a "serious misunderstanding." I made no comment, had no thought, and made no presumption about blessing (whatever you mean by that) on Ishmael's descendants.

My point was that God's promise to Abraham was not to make him "a" nation, as you had written.

I also pointed out that Jacob's blessing on Ephraim was that he would become a multitude of nations.

As I said, I do not know what this means, but it means something.

My post contained straightforward observations about the words of the Bible, and as I said, it was food for thought. Of course, I would be interested in what anyone thought about those verses.

Thankful Jane

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I have no idea what you mean by overextension and over-application. I made no application. If you are going to respond, it would be nice if you would respond to what I actually wrote in my post.

It strikes me wrongly for you to ask me to remember something that I had already pointed out in the post (about Ishmael).

Please do not ascribe ideas to me that I did not write and characterize them as a "serious misunderstanding." I made no comment, had no thought, and made no presumption about blessing (whatever you mean by that) on Ishmael's descendants.

My point was that God's promise to Abraham was not to make him "a" nation, as you had written.

I also pointed out that Jacob's blessing on Ephraim was that he would become a multitude of nations.

As I said, I do not know what this means, but it means something.

My post contained straightforward observations about the words of the Bible, and as I said, it was food for thought. Of course, I would be interested in what anyone thought about those verses.

Thankful Jane

The point concerning Ishmael was that there was not the same promise of blessing for him. He was promised to be the father of many nations. And it is also stated that he would be problem for the family he was exiled from. He was not promised all the stuff that Israel was promised.

As for overextended, it is the reading of the mention of nations with the intent of implying that everything concerning the covenant between Israel and God (which, BTW, was on top of Abraham's covenant, not simply the same covenant) did not flow through any of these verses to other nations. As I recall, God came and asked if they were willing to be for Him and follow Him. Upon their agreement, the law was given. And the promises that attached to any specific nation were also given.

It seems that all of the "national" promises being mentioned are not really the outgrowth of the Abrahamic covenant, but the specific covenant between God and the nation of Israel at the foot of Mt Sinai.

So, once again, there appears to be an overextension of covenant, prophecy, etc. Finding what amounts to a data point in common between two different things does not cause one to flow onto the other.

In other words, I see a lot of dots being called connected when I do not see the connection.

And, if you read my most recent post in the new thread on politics, you will see a related problem for me. One which I have raised here in different terms. But I will rephrase it here within the scope of this discussion.

As this discussion has unfolded, it would appear that it is the lack of favorable treatment of Christian values, even in terms of how laws are made, that is a significant cornerstone of the claim of America's "fall from grace." Our response begins as something benign, or even positive. Repent and pray. That is good. Something we should do without buildings falling. That it took such a thing is a shame to us. Not to the nation, the government, or the laws that allow abortion and refuse prayer in schools.

But if, after our repentance and prayer, the secular government does not reinstate sanctioned prayer in schools, favored status as iconic symbols in our courts (such as the posting of the ten commandments), legal restrictions on abortions, reduction in the rights of gays, very generous reading of the 10th amendment and of the right to bear arms . . . then what does it mean? That the nation didn't really repent? Or that we didn't repent hard enough for it?

Is it, as has been suggested, an invitation to get very active in politics so that we can increase pressure to make those things legally required?

So how does that stack up with "love your neighbor"? With "eats with sinners"? Jesus ate with sinners. He didn't lambaste them, then wait until they were sinning no more. Paul said that even the language of angels can be wielded without love and is a clanging symbol. Do we eat with Zacchaeus first, or demand that he change first?

I do not fear a slippery slope here. It seems to be the unavoidable outgrowth of a movement to insist that a secular nation can repent and pray its way out of bad things happening.

The nation cannot pray. Only the citizens can. And they aren't all praying, therefore the nation is not praying.

And outside of all of this, my second fear with this kind of movement is that it is just as much of a distraction from what is the real call of the gospel as was in the LRC. It sounds so good. But I find nothing in the linkages of scripture that actually arrive at the conclusions about what could be spiritual truth.

Instead, I see myths of super-spirituality in the founding fathers, linked through genealogies of churches near ground zero, and so many other things. We are aligning our spiritual efforts because a 200+ year-old church was near ground zero and didn't fall. This story of a sycamore tree saving the building is quite questionable. Besides the insiders' writings, where is this published in a way other than repeating what one of these writers has published? Caught a few pieces of stray shrapnel? What does that mean? How does a tree with a diameter of few feet protect a building of many feet in width? If the tree and the church remained standing, the answer is probably that there was not an assault of debris in that direction sufficient to do such damage.

Where do we take a stand to live peaceably? To repent for ourselves? To pray earnestly? To live righteously, but as sojourners, not as if the actual citizens? (Not saying to avoid anything to do with politics.)

If your talk were focused upon me, you, and the rest of us repenting continually for our continual failings without reference to some funny overlay of special nation status, you would find me fully with you. The same for prayer. Even praying for the nation. But not as if it can gain favored nation status, but as if every man woman and child needs to meet the Savior. That we all need to gain freedom from the bondage of sin. Better laws concerning how Christianity is treated in this country is irrelevant to that effort. Making sin illegal civilly does not decrease sin. It just puts it in hiding and/or changes the sin of choice. Why? because we are talking about sinners. And sinners will sin.

The answer is in changed lives. What arises from praying for a return to some presumed Christian status as a nation is legislated lives. But it doesn't change even one of those lives.

[Cal]

But if, after our repentance and prayer, the secular government does not reinstate sanctioned prayer in schools, favored status as iconic symbols in our courts (such as the posting of the ten commandments), legal restrictions on abortions, reduction in the rights of gays, very generous reading of the 10th amendment and of the right to bear arms . . . then what does it mean? That the nation didn't really repent? Or that we didn't repent hard enough for it?

If enough people really pray and repent, eventually there is going to be a critical mass of changed American lives that affect laws. It doesn't make sense that a significant amount of Americans would experience spiritual revival and it not have some repercussions in the halls of state and Federal congresses. Your paragraph seems to be saying that there is no way to pray in a way that would result in more justice in America from our lawmakers. But there is. If the people change the laws will change. And are you so sure Cahn is not talking about people changing first? You don't think he realizes this is a democracy? How can the laws change in a democracy without the people changing?

Cahn is talking about real prayer, real repentance. Yes, change starts with changed lives, but changed lives start with prayer. If we just pray for more just laws without being just ourselves, obviously change is not going to happen. You need people who actually value those laws. Again, we are after all talking about a democracy.

But I think you are kidding yourself, OBW, if you think God doesn't care about just and righteous laws in America. I'm not saying he would have us outlaw every sexual peccadillo, but certainly God cares about what kind of laws we have. I think it's naive and presumptuous to assume he is completely happy with the current laws in this country, or worse doesn't give a whit about them.

No, just laws are not the end goal. But the idea that, all else being equal, God wouldn't prefer the most just laws we can establish, is a bit strange to me. Yes, he uses everything, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a preference.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by OBW

The point concerning Ishmael was that there was not the same promise of blessing for him. He was promised to be the father of many nations. And it is also stated that he would be problem for the family he was exiled from. He was not promised all the stuff that Israel was promised.

....

If your talk were focused upon me, you, and the rest of us repenting continually for our continual failings without reference to some funny overlay of special nation status, you would find me fully with you. The same for prayer. Even praying for the nation. But not as if it can gain favored nation status, but as if every man woman and child needs to meet the Savior. That we all need to gain freedom from the bondage of sin. Better laws concerning how Christianity is treated in this country is irrelevant to that effort. Making sin illegal civilly does not decrease sin. It just puts it in hiding and/or changes the sin of choice. Why? because we are talking about sinners. And sinners will sin.

The answer is in changed lives. What arises from praying for a return to some presumed Christian status as a nation is legislated lives. But it doesn't change even one of those lives.

Mike,

I did not finish reading your post. I tried twice and the second time my brain exploded. It is a miracle that I can write these lines.

I feel that you are talking at me with a waterfall of words that I'm sure make sense to you, but don't make sense to me. I simply don't have the time it would require to try and get your meaning, much less respond. Sorry.

Please be at peace. You don't need to rescue me from beliefs that I don't hold.

Jane

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

But I think you are kidding yourself, OBW, if you think God doesn't care about just and righteous laws in America. I'm not saying he would have us outlaw every sexual peccadillo, but certainly God cares about what kind of laws we have. I think it's naive and presumptuous to assume he is completely happy with the current laws in this country, or worse doesn't give a whit about them.

It is a sad fact that often the laws of the land have more impact upon our conscience than the laws of God. This is especially true for our next generation. When the media, the teachers, and their peers at school all convince our young daughters that sex is completely acceptable, then their parents' faith seems irrelevant. When the school and her classmates can arrange an abortion without mommy knowing, she can easily be convinced that she is doing "the right thing." That is, until the "problem" is gone, and she is left to consider what just happened to her.

Fact is, the conscience of our young people is definitely affected by the laws of the land. The same is true with adultery. The laws of the land say there is absolutely nothing wrong with breaking the marriage bond via an extramarital affair. My Discover card is more binding than my legal relationship with my wife. God's word may say otherwise, but today's society seems for more impressed with "short-term" consequences.

If God was not so interested in laws and moral codes for his people, then we would never have heard about Moses at Mount Sanai or Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Mike,

I did not finish reading your post. I tried twice and the second time my brain exploded. It is a miracle that I can write these lines.

I feel that you are talking at me with a waterfall of words that I'm sure make sense to you, but don't make sense to me. I simply don't have the time it would require to try and get your meaning, much less respond. Sorry.

Please be at peace. You don't need to rescue me from beliefs that I don't hold.

Jane

Wow, how many times have I wanted to say that!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is a sad fact that often the laws of the land have more impact upon our conscience than the laws of God. This is especially true for our next generation. When the media, the teachers, and their peers at school all convince our young daughters that sex is completely acceptable, then their parents' faith seems irrelevant. When the school and her classmates can arrange an abortion without mommy knowing, she can easily be convinced that she is doing "the right thing." That is, until the "problem" is gone, and she is left to consider what just happened to her.

Fact is, the conscience of our young people is definitely affected by the laws of the land. The same is true with adultery. The laws of the land say there is absolutely nothing wrong with breaking the marriage bond via an extramarital affair. My Discover card is more binding than my legal relationship with my wife. God's word may say otherwise, but today's society seems for more impressed with "short-term" consequences.

If God was not so interested in laws and moral codes for his people, then we would never have heard about Moses at Mount Sanai or Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

How can anyone read the Bible and miss the fact that this is important to God. If it is important to God how arrogant and proud to claim that we can ignore it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow, how many times have I wanted to say that!

Those who disagree only for the sake of disagreeing, usually do not provide the most logical of explanations. You sure had fun with it though. AL is an easier read, but no less frustrating, since he also desires only to prove you (and me) wrong.

Untohim seems to think politics is the problem, but we could discuss movies or cooking or the weather and have the same issues develop. There just seems to be no way to find common ground with some folks, no matter what we discuss.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Untohim seems to think politics is the problem, but we could discuss movies or cooking or the weather and have the same issues develop. There just seems to be no way to find common ground with some folks, no matter what we discuss.

No I don't think politics is the problem and I never said it was. What I have said is there is only so much time most of us have to post and read on an Internet forum. I think the subject of Witness Lee and the Local Church (teachings, practices and history) can and should keep us all busy enough. Don't we all get to tone up our argumentative mussels enough on this subject alone? There are TONS of forums that cover and discuss politics. I don't think having one thread here covering political matters is that big of a deal, I just would not like to see it become the dominant subject. We have 2 or 3 new members who are probably getting discouraged from posting because of all the political stuff.

Anyway, this is why I posted that Jesus was very conservative and at the same time very liberal....all in the very same chapter of the Bible.

My main point, my main concern is that we "render unto God what is God's and render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." In MY VIEW the discussion of politics and political matters is rendering unto Caesar. As I just said, there are many places on the Internet to render unto Caesar. My hope, my prayer has always been that this little forum would be a place where we could at least try to spend a little time rendering unto God what is God's.

Ok, I will now return ya'll to your regularly scheduled programing....

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

If enough people really pray and repent, eventually there is going to be a critical mass of changed American lives that affect laws. It doesn't make sense that a significant amount of Americans would experience spiritual revival and it not have some repercussions in the halls of state and Federal congresses. Your paragraph seems to be saying that there is no way to pray in a way that would result in more justice in America from our lawmakers. But there is. If the people change the laws will change. And are you so sure Cahn is not talking about people changing first? You don't think he realizes this is a democracy? How can the laws change in a democracy without the people changing?

I would not say that God does not care about our laws. But his concern is more about the lives of people. And if we are so certain that "doing it on your own" is meaningless, then all the laws we can dream up is not the answer. Accepting the Savior is.

I did not propose that it could not happen. But I have doubts at the kind of levels that we are talking about here. I said "what if." If at our best, and at the actual rate of conversion of people to Christ, we don't arrive at "critical mass" to begin to move the pendulum, what have the Christians of America lost?

Favored religion status. That is it. And we should never presume that of any government, even one that is supposedly based on Christian principles. Even with those principles in place, it is secular and is full of secular people.

Originally Posted by Igzy

But I think you are kidding yourself, OBW, if you think God doesn't care about just and righteous laws in America. I'm not saying he would have us outlaw every sexual peccadillo, but certainly God cares about what kind of laws we have. I think it's naive and presumptuous to assume he is completely happy with the current laws in this country, or worse doesn't give a whit about them.

I don't think I made any comment on God's happiness with or care about our laws. Or those of other countries.

I would agree that just laws are always preferable. Even in our own eyes. But decides what is just? For a secular nation, a question that we as Christians might answer one way might be answered differently by a sufficiently large number of people that to outlaw their position might not actually reflect justice or righteousness. I am required to live according to God's righteousness and justice. We can say that everyone is required. But that is semantics. They are not required to do so in this life. But their choice in the matter is subject to penalty in the next.

So when does life begin (to take the abortion question as an example)? We quickly point to the Bible and realize that God refers to us a known in the womb — even at conception. And you don't "know" inanimate objects. But for those who reject God and/or the Bible, how do you force the answer to conception so that they are legally required to obey the Christian perspective? I am not saying to give up. But you need to find the way to move it from nearly at birth back to significantly toward conception with an argument that they will accept. And you may not get that all the way back to conception.

Then you have the issue that this nation does not allow the taking of a life "without due process." So there will be legitimate petitions for termination of pregnancy where a mother's life is in serious danger. And if it requires a lengthy process, then no petition will be meaningful. So there will need to be some level of legislation providing guidelines.

I would prefer that we had an army of doctors (all of them) that had morality that we could simply trust to do the right thing at all times.

But even with this kind of process in place, how do you keep from requiring people with honest differences of opinion on the subject from becoming subject to civil/criminal penalty because of the insistence of Christians? I'm not saying is it not the "right way" if we were Israel of the Old Testament. I question whether it is not entirely contrary to the command to love our neighbor. Whether it is not at odds with the example of eating with the sinners and inviting them into a relationship with Christ that changes their lives. That ends the life of prostitution, or being a cheating tax collector. Or thinking that homosexuality is just "who I am" therefore OK. Or thinking that my financial comfort requires an abortion and it is OK.

I am not talking about something that could happen if we are able to get the laws the way we want them. It will be what we create by getting those laws.

Now if the government, on its own, moves toward better laws and administers them without favoritism and without reference to Christianity or God, then we will have obtained what we want without setting that chain of events in motion.

Or will we? We also want prayer in the schools. And the claimed references to God and Christianity in history to be returned to prominence. If we manage to get those, then we will find that we have failed to avoid the taint that comes with the change in laws.

Originally Posted by Igzy

No, just laws are not the end goal. But the idea that, all else being equal, God wouldn't prefer the most just laws we can establish, is a bit strange to me. Yes, he uses everything, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a preference.

As long as "we" is everybody and not just the Christians marching in the streets demanding that those evil abortionists and homosexuals be stopped, then you may be at least partly right.

But I think that God would prefer that men turn to Him more than that secular kingdoms of the world have the most just paws possible. And if getting the second results in antagonism of the people that God would like to turn His way, then is seems we have gone out of our way to push them further away. Of course, if we take "God works in all things" to its extreme, we can argue that God can even use our browbeating of the heathen. I guess that makes it all better. God can work through it anyway.

But if we are sojourners in this world, how is it that the laws of this passing world are so strongly on our radar that we drop almost everything else to go after them?

And more than that, we go after the best set of laws there are and try to make them better while horrible laws exist elsewhere. Laws that even deny the open preaching of the gospel.

If there is a mark, this is not it.

I have said enough. If you don't see it, then you don't see it.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

But even with this kind of process in place, how do you keep from requiring people with honest differences of opinion on the subject from becoming subject to civil/criminal penalty because of the insistence of Christians?

Why just Christians? Why not also atheists or liberals or conservatives or Muslims, or any group with an opinion?

I think you are losing sight of the point that this is a democracy. Ultimately we are not going to get anything that is not the will of the majority, because ultimately that's what politicians respond to. You might say we do have laws most people don't like. Maybe. But not ones they dislike enough to want to be bothered with trying to get them changed. If a vocal and motivated majority petitions the government, you can bet the government will hear them.

Who decides what is just? In a democracy the people do. So why can't Christians join in the debate? You keep talking like there is this oligarchy of Christians who are going to force their laws on everyone else. How are they going to do that? So that is really a red herring. We can't force anything on anyone, unless we are the majority and vote as the majority. And if we do then, well, we were the majority and that's the way a democracy works.

How did we get the laws we have? Because by and large the people approve of them. Now you wouldn't know that by the way people gripe, but basically Americans get what they want. They want Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid and they don't really want to have to pay for them. Well, that's what we've got. So you can be sure if we outlawed abortion, like we just outlawed single-use plastic grocery bags in Austin, it would be so because (1) the majority wants it OR (2) the majority doesn't want to bother with trying to fight it.

So your scenario about forcing Christian laws on Americans is really irrelevant because Americans can't force laws on anyone without being the majority, and a motivated majority at that, OR because the real majority doesn't care enough to do anything about it. And if they don't care, you really can't say anything was forced on them.

Are you saying we would still be wise to keep abortion legal even if the majority wanted it illegal, just so we wouldn't offend the minority that wanted it legal?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

But if we are sojourners in this world, how is it that the laws of this passing world are so strongly on our radar that we drop almost everything else to go after them?

What we are so heavenly that we are of no earthly good? We see lies and deceit and just keep quiet? My experience with WL, WN, PL, etc. is that you do not ignore lies and deceit. You have to challenge it head on. Churchill said that in a democracy the people get the government they deserve. The constitution guarantees the right to free speech, the flip side is we cannot shirk our responsibility as citizens by saying "what could I do". You were given the right to speak up. If you keep silent you are without excuse.

[Cal]

ZNP,

I'm afraid I had to move most of your post to the closed Abortion thread. Let's not make this discussion about abortion specifically. The issue is about how in general Christians should engage themselves in affecting the laws of the country they live in.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

ZNP,

I'm afraid I had to move most of your post to the closed Abortion thread. Let's not make this discussion about abortion specifically. The issue is about how in general Christians should engage themselves in affecting the laws of the country they live in.

I think this is a matter of the "word of righteousness" that is mentioned in Hebrews. I see no reason why the way in which Christians should engage in affecting the laws should be considered a priestly service after the order of Melchisedec. I understand the feeling that it shouldn't be after the order of Aaron, that is fine. But Melchisedec does not have any similar affiliation. Likewise if Jesus was made a priest after the order of Melchisedec I see no reason why we can't follow after Him.

Hebrews
5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

[Cal]

In a democracy, focused minorities (special interests) often trump a blasé majority. This is why we get things like the wool and mohair subsidy on the books for decades. Although it greatly benefited sheep and goat raisers, it was not worth the 30 cents saved in per capita annual taxes (or whatever small amount went to the subsidy) for the average citizen to raise a ruckus about it. There's nothing insidious about that. It's just the nature of democracies.

But it was a case of the majority being too uninterested to do anything about a law they didn't like. Eventually, however, the majority will stand up to laws pressed by dedicated minorities when those laws become sufficiently objectionable. This is what would happen with any untoward "Christian" laws a minority might get enacted. The rest would be tolerated, simply because the majority isn't bothered enough by them. To the victor goes the spoils. So if you don't like the laws, work to to get them changed. But let's stop the nonsense about "forcing" laws on others. All laws are forced on others, right down to banning single-use plastic bags.

BTW, the wool and mohair subsidy was phased out in 1995, having become the poster child of wasteful government spending.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

In a democracy, focused minorities (special interests) often trump a blasé majority. This is why we get things like the wool and mohair subsidy on the books for decades. Although it greatly benefited sheep and goat raisers, it was not worth the 30 cents saved in per capita annual taxes (or whatever small amount went to the subsidy) for the average citizen to raise a ruckus about it. There's nothing insidious about that. It's just the nature of democracies.

But it was a case of the majority being too uninterested to do anything about a law they didn't like. Eventually, however, the majority will stand up to laws pressed by dedicated minorities when those laws become sufficiently objectionable. This is what would happen with any untoward "Christian" laws a minority might get enacted. The rest would be tolerated, simply because the majority isn't bothered enough by them. To the victor goes the spoils. So if you don't like the laws, work to to get them changed. But let's stop the nonsense about "forcing" laws on others. All laws are forced on others, right down to banning single-use plastic bags.

BTW, the wool and mohair subsidy was phased out in 1995, having become the poster child of wasteful government spending.

But how would a Christian minority focused on an objectionable law work? Should you treat this labor as a "ministry" or as "community service"? According to the NT what did Jesus, Paul, James, etc. speak on our involvement in the community at large? Is this a distraction from our heavenly calling or is this part of our heavenly calling?

Many on this forum feel that the teachings in the LRC were designed to create an isolated group from society and were self serving in teaching they didn't need to care for the poor, or the widows, or the fatherless. However, we don't want the pendulum to swing to the other extreme that our ministry is indistinguishable from worldly foundations like the YMCA, etc.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What we are so heavenly that we are of no earthly good? We see lies and deceit and just keep quiet? My experience with WL, WN, PL, etc. is that you do not ignore lies and deceit. You have to challenge it head on. Churchill said that in a democracy the people get the government they deserve. The constitution guarantees the right to free speech, the flip side is we cannot shirk our responsibility as citizens by saying "what could I do". You were given the right to speak up. If you keep silent you are without excuse.

And while I made that specific statement, I have also said that I am not opposing political activity on our part. And I do not oppose acknowledging our Christian heritage and perspective as we do that.

The problem is how that is done. If our lives affect enough others that we change the face of the nation, then maybe there will be a change in the laws and other societal landscape. But that is the outgrowth of our living the gospel, not politicking for stronger laws. The difference seems to be lost on too many people. For a movement of Christians to start to push, even demand, more "moral" laws (from the Christian perspective) places the very core of the church into the realm of politics. While we do not desire the kind of marriage of church and state that our founders sought to free themselves from, we seem to be determined to obtain the benefit of having it anyway. When that happens how do you assert that we are not simply in bed with the government and find that people who are on the outside are exactly like the Pilgrims.

We may not take it as far as they did in England, or in Rome or Constantinople, but we are dancing around the same error. Becoming the "in power" religion that is able to execute God's rules on those who do not claim to follow our God.

What shall we do about those who would mock our religion in the media? Who would argue for the freedom to stop at the numerous appointed times during the school day to pray to Mecca?

And, picking back on an issue that is now banned here and in the other (locked) thread (but only as an example), how do we deal with the legitimate exceptions on abortion, especially where one or the other is almost certainly to die? Do we just leave it for the natural outcome to decide and punish those who refuse to wait for that? In other words, do we want laws that favor us and our heritage and our religion and disfavor those of others, with the result that we create a sort of Religious state?

Stop suggesting that I do not get involved in politics in any way, or that I am insisting on such a thing. I am not. I am merely pointing to a different approach to it. One that is not concerned with my "rights" but with the will of God which is concerned with the salvation of mankind, not the subjugation of it to well-meaning religious masters.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Why just Christians? Why not also atheists or liberals or conservatives or Muslims, or any group with an opinion?

I have the same problem when those people push agendas that would insist on their position to the exclusion of mine (where mine is not unrighteous).

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think you are losing sight of the point that this is a democracy. Ultimately we are not going to get anything that is not the will of the majority, because ultimately that's what politicians respond to.

Like I said to ZNP, I have not said to avoid the political arena. I have warned in favor of a different approach.

Originally Posted by Igzy

You might say we do have laws most people don't like.

I don't think I ever said that. I'm sure that there are laws that some people don't like.

But responding forward to at least one of your comments later in the post, there are many issues in which people find themselves in favor of a certain way but not sufficiently to oppose others who have reasons (whether we like them or not) to take a different position. A lot of it falls inside of the "it only hurts me" category, or is a matter "in private without harm to others." There are people who would like to outlaw public displays of romantic or lustful expression between members of the same sex. I find it repulsive. But unless it is of a nature that I would similarly deny such public display between a "normal" couple, I believe that it should not be outlawed. Just an example. That is very different from just not being bothered enough to want to change them. I find a just reason to refrain from such action (writing a law) as a matter of tolerance.

I do not see Christians being able to simply force their desires on others. But if Christians were to become the majority voting force (and managed to all be on the same page — doubtful) there are still many things that, in love for neighbor, that we should not do even though we could.

It might be that insisting on opening schools back up to prayer over the PA each morning is really too much — unless we are also going to permit an Islamic, Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, etc., prayer, and a brief statement from the resident atheist.

Same for returning the 10 commandments to prominent display in capitol and court buildings. I don't think it is a problem to allow it. But it might be.

It gets murkier as you start into the laws that are so religiously and politically charged. Abortion. Homosexuality. EEOC. Even immigration laws.

I think you can get to more significant restrictions on abortion. Even to a rationale for restricting government funding of it due to the general outrage of to significant a part of the population against the practice. But if you think you can make it simply go away and not slam the Christian influence in the process — and find the repercussions severe when we cease to be the majority — then you are mistaken.

The issue is not what is possible, but what is prudent.

And it is not to refrain from politics.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

I do not see Christians being able to simply force their desires on others. But if Christians were to become the majority voting force (and managed to all be on the same page — doubtful) there are still many things that, in love for neighbor, that we should not do even though we could.

I agree with this. But you have to look at the likely scenarios. If America gained an overwhelming majority of real, committed Christians (as opposed to nominal), how would that come about? It most likely would be through real life change, rather than simply religious fervor. So some kind of cultural revolution enforced through law is unlikely. Although zealous Christian restorationists get the grease, most Christians are pretty reasonable. They understand that the freedom they enjoy must be extended to others.

But simply because someone wants America to turn to God and receive a blessing does not mean the other shoe dropping is to round up all gays and abortion practitioners and hang them from the nearest tree. Frankly, I think it would be sad commentary indeed if Christians got significantly more political power and used it to persecute gays or something like that.

The Christian Coalition experience showed that bare knuckles politics is not the way to bring in the kingdom of God. At the same time, grass roots citizenship informed by the knowledge of God is completely legitimate.

The danger of oppression from a Christian majority is one reason why Christians should not be "one" and organized in the way the LRC envisions it. Can you imagine what would happen to freedom if that group came to power? Holy moly!

[OBW]

Igzy,

That is really what I am talking about.

The problem is that the underlying rhetoric of most of the calls to repentance and prayer that come from people like Cahn is focused on the things that have occurred as a result of the slow elimination of the tendency toward social Christianity (not true Christians) and therefore the rise in freedom to not be Christian.

The sins that we are being called to repent and pray about are not the sins of the Christians (for the most part), but of the "sinners." (I do not use that term disparagingly. Many of my coworkers are sinners in the truest since of being unsaved. Of course, I ignore the fact that we all are sinners and do not simply stop all sinning upon salvation.)

So it would seem that the goal of whatever spiritual activity Cahn and others are calling for is to reduce the tendency for sinners (unsaved) to sin. (In other words, it is not about us repenting for our own sins, but for the sins of others.) That is only accomplished through salvation, not laws. And even when making more righteous and moral laws, we must always be careful that we are not essentially targeting only the different morals of other people. It is irrelevant during this life that we honestly (and correctly) believe that their morals are corrupt and/or deficient. Forcing our views upon them is simply contrary to our call to love.

Which brings me back to one of my broken records. America is a kingdom of the world. It may be a very good one, but it is nevertheless a kingdom of the world. Yes, it is our charge as its earthly citizens to be involved in its government. But within our living as the people of a different kingdom, it may just be to our disadvantage (or even spiritual harm) to take the position of ruler rather than servant. (And there has been at least one suggestion that we should be using this as training for "ruling cities" in the next age. I think that is quite a stretch — especially to think that learning about American democracy is a reasonable proving ground for Millennial "ruling.")

But I do agree that we need to repent. Repent that we have turned the gospel into propositions and checklists. Repent that we have not loved our neighbor as ourselves. Repent that we have neglected justice related to the widow, orphan, homeless, alien, etc. This kind of repentance coupled with prayer for the will and power to take on those tasks might change our respect in the community. It might cause many to ask what it is about those Christians. That is so much more important that any kind of national benefit we could seek for ourselves (and for others) that does not move them toward Christ, but just makes our collective lives better.

The gospel is not better lives. It is different lives.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Igzy,

That is really what I am talking about.

The problem is that the underlying rhetoric of most of the calls to repentance and prayer that come from people like Cahn is focused on the things that have occurred as a result of the slow elimination of the tendency toward social Christianity (not true Christians) and therefore the rise in freedom to not be Christian.

Can we stop be so vague and general "people like Cahn"? I have no idea who you are talking about and what these imaginary people have said. So this makes it impossible to comment. Why can't we just refer to what Cahn has said. We heard his speech. If you wish you can read his book.

Originally Posted by OBW

So it would seem that the goal of whatever spiritual activity Cahn and others are calling for is to reduce the tendency for sinners (unsaved) to sin.

Again, these comments are too vague to be of any value. The only concrete example that Cahn gave that I can recall (please help if you can recall other examples he used) was abortion. This is not a matter of the "slow elimination of the tendency toward social Christianity" it is about an abrupt action that completely violates the laws of this land. This is not about "reducing the tendency for sinners to sin" because once this issue is given to the States the States can still vote to allow sinners to continue to sin. It is about short circuiting the laws of the land and pushing through an agenda that 7 people support.

[OBW]

While I would probably prefer that this particular thread stayed buried in the past, Dancing has been reading through the archives and came across it. From the last post (before Dancing) the writer quoted this little sound bite from me for comment:

So it would seem that the goal of whatever spiritual activity Cahn and others are calling for is to reduce the tendency for sinners (unsaved) to sin.

To which the following reply was made.

Again, these comments are too vague to be of any value. The only concrete example that Cahn gave that I can recall (please help if you can recall other examples he used) was abortion. This is not a matter of the "slow elimination of the tendency toward social Christianity" it is about an abrupt action that completely violates the laws of this land. This is not about "reducing the tendency for sinners to sin" because once this issue is given to the States the States can still vote to allow sinners to continue to sin. It is about short circuiting the laws of the land and pushing through an agenda that 7 people support.

The problem with this kind of comment is that it claims that mine was too vague. That's what happens when you only quote one sentence out of a paragraph, out of a complete post. Without context, the one sentence just doesn't tell much.

But based on the response, it would seem that a political solution is the issue. There are those who are thwarting the constitution (at least in their mind, and I have to admit in my mind as well) and the solution is to reclaim the "Christian Nation" and force the righteousness of God upon all the heathen who would not follow God's laws.

If that is actually the will of the people (ignoring the Christian Nation part since there has never been such a thing), then the people will do it. They won't have to argue "Christian" rhetoric to shame others into joining them so that they get a majority and then get what they want.

But if it is a political endeavor, then the real issue is why we are fighting the sins of heathen through taking political authority. Why do we justify doing what we chide the winners in the days of Constantine when they took on the ability to use the government's force to rid the world of heretics. When it became a civil offense to not agree on all aspects of the latest council and creed down to the smallest point.

Now it has gone from religious fervor to civil fervor. We want to attack not only the Christians (or alleged Christians) who are not on board with our specific creed, but the heathen who don't buy into any of it.

No, what is completely missing in the response to my original comment is the rest of my comment. They did not comment on my post, but on what they wanted to comment on. And what better way than taking a single sentence out of context (just like we often do scripture) and argue about something that it does not actually say. My original comment was about the salvation of people. It was not about the laws of the USA or the belief that some are hijacking them.

I said:

So it would seem that the goal of whatever spiritual activity Cahn and others are calling for is to reduce the tendency for sinners (unsaved) to sin. (In other words, it is not about us repenting for our own sins, but for the sins of others.) That is only accomplished through salvation, not laws. And even when making more righteous and moral laws, we must always be careful that we are not essentially targeting only the different morals of other people. It is irrelevant during this life that we honestly (and correctly) believe that their morals are corrupt and/or deficient. Forcing our views upon them is simply contrary to our call to love.

Which brings me back to one of my broken records. America is a kingdom of the world. It may be a very good one, but it is nevertheless a kingdom of the world. Yes, it is our charge as its earthly citizens to be involved in its government. But within our living as the people of a different kingdom, it may just be to our disadvantage (or even spiritual harm) to take the position of ruler rather than servant. (And there has been at least one suggestion that we should be using this as training for "ruling cities" in the next age. I think that is quite a stretch — especially to think that learning about American democracy is a reasonable proving ground for Millennial "ruling.")

But I do agree that we need to repent. Repent that we have turned the gospel into propositions and checklists. Repent that we have not loved our neighbor as ourselves. Repent that we have neglected justice related to the widow, orphan, homeless, alien, etc. This kind of repentance coupled with prayer for the will and power to take on those tasks might change our respect in the community. It might cause many to ask what it is about those Christians. That is so much more important that any kind of national benefit we could seek for ourselves (and for others) that does not move them toward Christ, but just makes our collective lives better.

The gospel is not better lives. It is different lives.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

While I would probably prefer that this particular thread stayed buried in the past..

All this sounds like ISIS or ISIL, whatever they're called. And like the wishes of Christian Dominionists.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

All this sounds like ISIS or ISIL, whatever they're called. And like the wishes of Christian Dominionists.

If the Christian Nation had been Lee's thing, he would have declared that ISIS and others pushing varieties of Sharia (sp?) law are Satan's counterfeits.

In short, at some level, the Christian Nation has strong tendencies to be just a somewhat nicer versions of ISIS. They will not overrun Mexico and Canada. But woe unto those who live within its boundaries when they are able to make sin not only subject to the wrath of God, but to the wrath of angry Christians. (Something oxymoronic about that last phrase.)

[Nell]

Leviticus 25:1-10King James Version (KJV)

25 And the Lord spake unto Moses in mount Sinai, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the Lord.

3 Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;

4 But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the Lord: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.

5 That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.

6 And the sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee.

7 And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat.

8 And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.

9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.

10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

The year of the Shemitah, also called the Sabbath year, began at sundown Wednesday Sept. 24, 2014 with the start of Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, and continues through Sept. 13, 2015.

While the rules for farming may no longer apply, Jonathan Cahn believes the broader principle of the seven-year cycle still holds the secret of how God deals with nations in terms of blessings and judgment. Is it possible that financial crashes, the rise and fall of nations, even empires, can occur within the patterns of seven-year cycles?

A historical perspective (examples)
Cahn tracks American history and sees the Shemitah at work.

The nation, as he points out in “The Harbinger,” was dedicated to God at the inauguration of George Washington in 1789. And the blessings followed the nation for more than 100 years, except for a brief but terrible period of turmoil, division and death during the Civil War.

By 1917, at the end of World War I, America began its meteoric rise to global superpower status. “It shifts history,” said Cahn, noting that 1917 was a Shemitah year.

“Then you come to 1945, another Shemitah, and World War II.” By the end of that war America sat alone atop the world order.

The blessings continued throughout the 1950s and into the 1960s. But that’s when things started going awry, according to Cahn. Prayer was removed from public schools and God was removed from the public square.

Abortion became legal in 1973. “When you get to another (Shemitah) in 1973, you have the beginning of the fall of America. Abortion gets legalized, the financial world collapses. We lose our first war, Vietnam, on the same day that we won World War II on the other Shemitah,” Cahn said.

“And then you get to 2001, and when you get to September, that’s the peak of the Shemitah, and that’s when 9/11 happens.” The word Shemitah can also be interpreted as “collapse,” he said. “You have not only a collapse of markets but a collapse of towers, the symbol of American strength,” Cahn said. “The warning is, if America doesn’t turn back to God, its blessings, which come from God, will be removed from the land.”


Nell

[Ohio]

I used to buy into this line of reasoning concerning Israel, but the facts must be highly "doctored" to maintain their "prognosis."

Right now China is rising to power financially, and yet they care nothing for Israel. On the contrary, China supports Iran.

Numerous Moslem countries are awash in oil monies, virtual Utopias on earth.

Because of US support for Israel, we should be blessed, yet we are not. Unemployment, crime, racism, debt, etc. there is no end to our problems. I don't see the kind of "blessing" which should accompany our long standing policies of being the sole supporter of Israel on earth.

[zeek]

Re: Jonathan Cahn: Lee wasn't enough for you huh? You have to find another Shepard to follow? Lately I visit this website for my daily dose of crazy. Lets all get fanatical and disturbed shall we? Been there, done that. No thanks.

[Ohio]

I used to buy into this line of reasoning concerning Israel, but the facts must be highly "doctored" to maintain their "prognosis."

Right now China is rising to power financially, and yet they care nothing for Israel. On the contrary, China supports Iran.

Numerous Moslem countries are awash in oil monies, virtual Utopias on earth.

Because of US support for Israel, we should be blessed, yet we are not. Unemployment, crime, racism, debt, etc. there is no end to our problems. I don't see the kind of "blessing" which should accompany our long standing policies of being the sole supporter of Israel on earth.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I used to buy into this line of reasoning concerning Israel, but the facts must be highly "doctored" to maintain their "prognosis."

Right now China is rising to power financially, and yet they care nothing for Israel. On the contrary, China supports Iran.

Numerous Moslem countries are awash in oil monies, virtual Utopias on earth.

Because of US support for Israel, we should be blessed, yet we are not. Unemployment, crime, racism, debt, etc. there is no end to our problems. I don't see the kind of "blessing" which should accompany our long standing policies of being the sole supporter of Israel on earth.

I think his point is that the unemployment, crime, racism, debt, etc., may be the result, the judgment for turning away from God as a national policy, including legalized murder of unborn children, banning prayer in public schools, etc. Supporting Isreal has diminished also, especially in this current administration. Who knows where we would be were it not for what support there is?

Regardless, Cahn's case is historically accurate, down to the day. Whether we agree or not, and to what extent we agree, really doesn't matter in my mind. Time will tell. By October, 2015 history will be written, the case will be made one way or another. Cahn will be the wisest prophet of our time, or the donkey. His message is one of repentance and turning back to God.

I personally think it would be a good idea to pay attention, just in case.

Nell

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

I think his point is that the unemployment, crime, racism, debt, etc., may be the result, the judgment for turning away from God as a national policy, including legalized murder of unborn children, banning prayer in public schools, etc. Supporting Isreal has diminished also, especially in this current administration. Who knows where we would be were it not for what support there is?

Regardless, Cahn's case is historically accurate, down to the day. Whether we agree or not, and to what extent we agree, really doesn't matter in my mind. Time will tell. By October, 2015 history will be written, the case will be made one way or another. Cahn will be the wisest prophet of our time, or the donkey. His message is one of repentance and turning back to God.

I personally think it would be a good idea to pay attention, just in case.

Nell

Either way, you can say that you did your part in spreading fear. Fear sells books.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

Re: Jonathan Cahn: Lee wasn't enough for you huh? You have to find another Shepard to follow? Lately I visit this website for my daily dose of crazy. Lets all get fanatical and disturbed shall we? Been there, done that. No thanks.

Thank you for your concern. There's only one Shepard in my life. His name is Jesus. Do I read others? Yes.

Posts like this one remind me of the little boy who cried wolf. Eventually, the wolf came but the little boy had long since been dismissed as a "daily dose of crazy and/or spreading fear."

Like I said. Time will tell.

Nell

[Nell]

Acts 5:34-39 New International Version (NIV)

34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while.

35 Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. (Jonathan Cahn?)

36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing.

37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered.

38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.

39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”



So chill guys. Don't get yourselves all worked up. Don't read this thread. Just wait! :-)

Nell

[OBW]

This thread is a wonderful waste of time. It is chasing yet another distraction. As if Lee and the LRC weren't enough of a distraction.

It is another formula for some kind of prosperity. Maybe not monetary, but it is usually included in there somewhere.

If we drive the homosexuals back into the closets, God will bless us.

If we wipe out the abortion clinics, God will bless us.

If we say the right words about Israel, God will bless us.

If we give enough money to pastor so-and-so, God will bless us.

If we dress in first-century garb, live in clay or stone houses with thatch roofs and dirt floors, and have to wash the dirt from our feet each evening, then God will bless us.

If we read from only the authorized versions of the Bible, God will bless us.

If we hold to the literal 6-day creation story, then God will bless us.

(And if we dress-up in WWII uniforms and do enough activities like the people who came from the skies, more of them will come and bring stuff.)

Ignoring the literal cargo-cult reference at the end, which of those is actually found in the Bible?

Only one (and only sort of). And if we distill it down to "they shall prosper that love thee," then doesn't simply adhering to the admonition to love God and love your neighbor as yourself achieve that? And whatever we get for it is to us, not to our little kingdom of the world called the United States of America.

I love the USA. But it is not the kingdom of God.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

This thread is a wonderful waste of time. It is chasing yet another distraction. ...

OBW, I hope you're right.

But, there might be something to Cahn's perspective. Not sure, but maybe. One thing for sure, time will tell. Wasting time and chase distractions is what we do, isn't it? At least this one has an end date. October 1, 2015 you can come back out and say "I told you so!!!"

I really hope you're right....all of you.

Nell

Note: If you're interested in Cahn's perspective, research him somewhere else. This thread is not exactly "fair and balanced".

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

Thank you for your concern. There's only one Shepard in my life. His name is Jesus. Do I read others? Yes.

Posts like this one remind me of the little boy who cried wolf. Eventually, the wolf came but the little boy had long since been dismissed as a "daily dose of crazy and/or spreading fear."

Like I said. Time will tell.

Nell

If Jesus is your Shepard then I suppose you don't need Jesus + the Law. Religion probably originated due to fear. Men sacrificed people and then animals and then god-men saviors to appease God. The worst kinds of religion continues perpetuate fear in the name of God. The best promote calm and compassion. Which kind are you promoting?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Cahn will be the wisest prophet of our time, or the donkey.

But will he make as much as Harold Camping made with his scare tactics?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

But will he make as much as Harold Camping made with his scare tactics?

Time will tell.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Time will tell.

Believe who and think how you want. But you'd be wise not to click the donate button on his websites, and prolly shouldn't buy his books either. Well on second thought, it's your money ... give it away as you see fit. Help make Cahn rich.

And I've got a bridge to sell you too.

And stay true to form. This has been used over and over again, with prophecy: When it doesn't happen say it happened "spiritually" in heaven.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

If Jesus is your Shepard then I suppose you don't need Jesus + the Law. Religion probably originated due to fear. Men sacrificed people and then animals and then god-men saviors to appease God. The worst kinds of religion continues perpetuate fear in the name of God. The best promote calm and compassion. Which kind are you promoting?

Seriously? I read a book (including the Bible) and did some research. Respond to what I'm actually saying instead of all this strawman nonsense. Talk about a waste of time.

And don't question or insult my Christian testimony. Jesus IS my Shepard.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Believe who and think how you want. But you'd be wise not to click the donate button on his websites, and prolly shouldn't buy his books either. Well on second thought, it's your money ... give it away as you see fit. Help make Cahn rich.

And I've got a bridge to sell you too.

And stay true to form. This has been used over and over again, with prophecy: When it doesn't happen say it happened "spiritually" in heaven.

Will do. Don't need permission. Don't need a bridge. Don't know what you're talking about.

When WHAT doesn't happen??? Is something going to not happen?

I'm so confused. I can't keep up with all the straw men.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Will do. Don't need permission. Don't need a bridge. Don't know what you're talking about. When WHAT doesn't happen???

I'm so confused. I can't keep up with all the straw men.

Nell

Then you are not qualified to keep up with Cahn and Sid either.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

Seriously? I read a book (including the Bible) and did some research. Respond to what I'm actually saying instead of all this strawman nonsense. Talk about a waste of time.

And don't question or insult my Christian testimony. Jesus IS my Shepard.

Nell

Don't take it personally. I don't know you. I'm looking at your propositions. You have brought us the latest doom and gloom prophesies to loom over us for the next year. None of us has any control over whether the nation repents or not. Cahn's hypothesis is selective. It ignores the good stuff that has happened every seven years and the bad stuff that happens every year in between. Show me a year where something bad did not happen. So help me to see how this is more than fear mongering.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I think his point is that the unemployment, crime, racism, debt, etc., may be the result, the judgment for turning away from God as a national policy, including legalized murder of unborn children, banning prayer in public schools, etc. Supporting Isreal has diminished also, especially in this current administration. Who knows where we would be were it not for what support there is?

Back in the 60's recession, our family skidded along in poverty, and my brother and I peddled papers every after noon so Mom could buy food.

Was this the heyday of God's blessing upon us?

I seem to remember crime, racism, riots, fires all around during those "blessed" days, especially after MLK was gunned down.

Abortion was not legal, the sexual revolution had not seized us, Israel was supported and even retook Jerusalem with our help back in '67, just about the time of the height of American chaos.

Like I said, I used to believe this line of reasoning, but the facts don't match up.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Either way, you can say that you did your part in spreading fear. Fear sells books.

The ministry of anxiety has benefited many a bank account.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

OBW, I hope you're right.

But, there might be something to Cahn's perspective. Not sure, but maybe. One thing for sure, time will tell. Wasting time and chase distractions is what we do, isn't it? At least this one has an end date. October 1, 2015 you can come back out and say "I told you so!!!"

Does that correspond with a blood moon?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

Don't take it personally. I don't know you. I'm looking at your propositions. You have brought us the latest doom and gloom prophesies to loom over us for the next year. None of us has any control over whether the nation repents or not. So help me to see how this is more than fear mongering.

Zeek--

Thank you for that.

I do find awareness' remarks out of line and I won't be responding to anyone's insults. As Christians, we should be able to have a civil conversation, even if we disagree.

I recommend that you stop reading this topic and pick up The Harbinger. This topic contains misinformation and misrepresentation that are difficult to wade through. If/when you get the book, (I downloaded a Kindle) assume it isn't true. (That shouldn't be hard!) Make Jonathan Cahn convince you that there is something to his story. Be a total skeptic. That's what I did.

I wasn't prepared for the writing style of the book. It was a little off-putting at first, but the story was compelling enough that I hung in there. It's written like a fictional account of pieces of a puzzle being put together when you didn't previously know a puzzle existed.

Overlay all these factual, historical events over events that occurred in the Old Testament.

As the story builds, you will either be convinced or you will remain a skeptic. Either way, you'll be educated about the contents of this topic and you'll learn a lot about the events of September 11 and its place in American history that you didn't know existed.

Regardless of whether you buy in to Cahn's premise, you may be able to appreciate that God does warn us when we're about to get into trouble and we really do need to repent and turn to Him, or turn back to Him.

If you don't want to spend the $$$'s, check out a few web sites.

That's my best help for you. I think you'll enjoy the read.

Again, thank you for your kindness to me. Sorry I can't explain it like I see it in my head.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I do find awareness' remarks out of line and I won't be responding to anyone's insults. As Christians, we should be able to have a civil conversation, even if we disagree.

Now I did not see any insults from awareness, but post-LC I think occasional skepticism is warranted.

The basic premise here is that America's support for Israel determines God's blessing. I used to buy into that, but now I ask, "If God has blessed America for decades, then why would He stop, when we are the only country in the world which will come to their defense?"

Is God judging all of America because we got a Mooslim in the White House? What about all the Jewish and Christian groups here praying and supporting Israel? Why doesn't God judge just the countries that have professed hatred towards Israel?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The basic premise here is that America's support for Israel determines God's blessing. I used to buy into that, but now I ask, "If God has blessed America for decades, then why would He stop, when we are the only country in the world which will come to their defense?"

This is a premise that neither Jane nor I put forth on this topic. Neither is that a premise Jonathan Cahn presents in The Harbinger or any of the videos I've seen. I'm not saying he doesn't talk about that somewhere, just not that I've seen or heard. I don't know where it came from but it wasn't from me.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is God judging all of America because we got a Mooslim in the White House? What about all the Jewish and Christian groups here praying and supporting Israel? Why doesn't God judge just the countries that have professed hatred towards Israel?

I don't know.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

This is a premise that neither Jane nor I put forth on this topic. Neither is that a premise Jonathan Cahn presents in The Harbinger or any of the videos I've seen. I'm not saying he doesn't talk about that somewhere, just not that I've seen or heard. I don't know where it came from but it wasn't from me.

OK, thanks.

I must have received that view from others who have read the book.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

I do find awareness' remarks out of line and I won't be responding to anyone's insults.

Sorry if I insulted you. But I can't believe after the local church that you'll still fall for the likes of Cahn and Sid. It really blows my mind.

Same for Dancing falling for the law. That blows my mind too.

I suspect the both of you need to learn more lessons about falling for crazy leaders, that obviously intend to fleece gullible sheep, or mislead them.

Both of you seem to read. How about reading some history books, to learn more about how these kinds of scams have happened over and over again?

Why be so easy to believe just about anybody?

[OBW]

I think this all comes down to someone providing and answer to a problem that sounds spiritual. And it would be really nice if it were true.

I keep thinking of Charlie Brown wondering why he never wins a baseball game. "But we're so sincere." In this case, it just sounds so spiritual.

And it keeps underpinning something that I first saw in myself, then in a lot of us who come to these forums. We don't want the LRC. But there is something in us that is seeking for something superior. And that is the reason that we got caught in the LRC and the reason that we are prone to getting stuck in other such things. We aren't satisfied with "very good." We want it all. (Think of that little girl in Willy Wonka singing something like "I want it all," and "I want it now.")

Those who seek "God's best" as an alternative to the community of faith that is around them will be rewarded with the smoke and mirrors of one charlatan after another. We are still stuck with despising our brothers. So they are too poor, or unspiritual, or worldly . . . .

We want to feel good. But we were never promised to feel good. Or have lots of outward blessings. Or even good teeth. We were promised struggles and hardships.

We were not asked to be spiritual, but to be righteous. But we despise "works" and seek after a better worship experience (be it a throwback to "traditional" or the latest thing), or better teachings.

We despise ourselves for not being willing to go to Mongolia to preach the gospel, but think it nothing to continue to act like heathen right here at home. In other words, we all think that only 10-talent servants can "make it" and continue to despise our one-talent task of hungering and thirsting for righteousness (and living that righteousness).

For myself, not for everyone else. If I cannot live it, who am I kidding to be arguing about how unrighteous the unsaved in my country are? Or even the Christian sitting next to me at church?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sorry if I insulted you. But I can't believe after the local church that you'll still fall for the likes of Cahn and Sid. It really blows my mind.

In other words: "Sorry if I insulted you...but you deserve it."

Originally Posted by awareness

Same for Dancing falling for the law. That blows my mind too.

I suspect the both of you need to learn more lessons about falling for crazy leaders, that obviously intend to fleece gullible sheep, or mislead them.

Both of you seem to read. How about reading some history books, to learn more about how these kinds of scams have happened over and over again?

Why be so easy to believe just about anybody?

Who do you want me to believe? You?

Gullible? Really? You're going there? We "seem to read"? This just blows MY mind!

You don't know me. You don't know what I believe. You don't know what, if anything, I've "fallen for". I read a book and wanted to discuss it on this ... uh...discussion forum.

What is that to you? Who are you?

We can't discuss topics that blow your mind? Is that how it works? We can't discuss a topic you don't want us to discuss? We need your permission?

Not too far from the Local Church after all.

Nell

Sid? Sid Roth? I know the name but that's it. I haven't fallen for anyone named Sid.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

Zeek--

Thank you for that.

I do find awareness' remarks out of line and I won't be responding to anyone's insults. As Christians, we should be able to have a civil conversation, even if we disagree.

I recommend that you stop reading this topic and pick up The Harbinger. This topic contains misinformation and misrepresentation that are difficult to wade through. If/when you get the book, (I downloaded a Kindle) assume it isn't true. (That shouldn't be hard!) Make Jonathan Cahn convince you that there is something to his story. Be a total skeptic. That's what I did.

I wasn't prepared for the writing style of the book. It was a little off-putting at first, but the story was compelling enough that I hung in there. It's written like a fictional account of pieces of a puzzle being put together when you didn't previously know a puzzle existed.

Overlay all these factual, historical events over events that occurred in the Old Testament.

As the story builds, you will either be convinced or you will remain a skeptic. Either way, you'll be educated about the contents of this topic and you'll learn a lot about the events of September 11 and its place in American history that you didn't know existed.

Regardless of whether you buy in to Cahn's premise, you may be able to appreciate that God does warn us when we're about to get into trouble and we really do need to repent and turn to Him, or turn back to Him.

If you don't want to spend the $$$'s, check out a few web sites.

That's my best help for you. I think you'll enjoy the read.

Again, thank you for your kindness to me. Sorry I can't explain it like I see it in my head.

Nell

You're welcome Nell. I already checked out Cahn at Wikipedia, and "Q&A with Jonathan Cahn". Ministry Today. Retrieved 22 January 2014.
Jump up ^ Jothen, Tiffany (July 17, 2013). "'The Harbinger': Is God Warning America? - Jonathan Cahn Relates America To Ancient Israel". Christian Post. Retrieved 22 January 2014. I saw no substance to his hypothesis. I might read his book, but at the moment I have a lot of reading on my plate of a less speculative variety and as I said his predictions are quite nebulous and selective. I'm not saying that Cahn is a con, but, I haven't ruled it out. If 2015 is like most other years in recorded history, there will be plenty of events fro him to point to and say "I told you so" like a finger-wagging parent. He'll be able to sell a sequel and fill a hall.

[rayliotta]

In any case, I'm thinking that Nell's interest in Cahn's writings probably does not include attending several Cahn meetings a week, listening to people call Cahn the minister of the age, or living in Cahn corporate living, etc., etc. Hopefully, anyway?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

I'm not saying that Cahn is a con

So he might not be a Cahn-man?

What about his claim that Isaiah 9:10 parallels 9/11? That's so far fetched that it reaches into the absurd. And all his other parallels are stretched beyond reality too.

But it sells books ... all because to Christians America looks to be worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. So it's an easy sell.

Ha.

[Nell]

Is God warning America?

It's a question asked by Cahn. Here's a question asked by me:

If God wanted to warn America, how would he do it?

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So he might not be a Cahn-man?

What about his claim that Isaiah 9:10 parallels 9/11? That's so far fetched that it reaches into the absurd. And all his other parallels are stretched beyond reality too.

But it sells books ... all because to Christians America looks to be worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. So it's an easy sell.

Ha.

You must not be a real believer then!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Is God warning America?

It's a question asked by Cahn. Here's a question asked by me:

If God wanted to warn America, how would he do it?

Nell

Warn America about what?

Would He warn the rest of the world too?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Is God warning America?

It's a question asked by Cahn. Here's a question asked by me:

If God wanted to warn America, how would he do it?

Nell

Why would God want to warn America? America is not Israel, like in the OT.

When the OT, and the NT, were written, America wasn't even known about.

When did America become the center of God's concern?

[awareness]

Okay while things are slow I'll explain myself, and why I react to people like Cahn & Sid Roth the way that I do.

In Florida I hung with some Christians that were into the Left Behind Series of books. They were very excited over them, and hung on every word, like they were the Bible, or an accurate interpretation of the Bible.

So because they couldn't shut up about the books I took a look at them. I'll read anything. And as is my habit I fact check what I read.

Well the fact checking didn't pan out. The claims about what Bible verses meant were wild and far fetched. And ... and I say AND, right on the cover of the books it says, "Novel."

When I pointed out that the books were novels they said yes, but they teach the Bible.

And that's it. That's why they were so hung on the books. They believed that since the books were riddled with Bible verses they were reading "God's word." Sort of like Lee's Life-Studies.

But they weren't getting the Bible themselves. They were getting it from the Left Behind authors, who were writing novels that, didn't have to write the truth.

That's one reason I react the way that I do.

Here's another: A couple of years ago a Christian friend I have here called me all excited. She had just finished reading a book that she described as phenomenal. Said it was titled "The Shack," by William P. Young.

She wanted me to read it so badly that she drove 45 minutes to bring it to me. Well I read it, and enjoyed it. It was fetching from the get-go.

But it was corny (I'll read anything). It was about a family whose young daughter gets nabbed and killed. And when he goes looking for her in the woods he comes across a cabin. Well, in short, he meets God in the cabin. Who is a black woman. And he meets Jesus there too, and the Holy Spirit, who was, as you can imagine, flighty.

Hey, again, it said right on the cover "Novel." So in a couple of days she calls me asking what I think. I told her I enjoyed it but that I doubted those at her Church of Christ would cotton to God being a black woman.

She said, "then they can't except God as He is." I said, "Joanna, it's just a story. It says right on the cover that it's a novel." "But it comes from real events," she retorted. I said, "No it doesn't. I researched it. It's a figment of the imagination."

She was so downcast. She made me feel like I rained on her parade. I felt bad. I burst her fantasy bubble. I don't know. Maybe I done wrong. Maybe believing in fantasies is more healthy than pharmaceutical meds from the doctor. But I had to tell her the truth of my take on the book.

So here and now:

I don't have a copy of Harbingers. But I checked it out on Amazon. And I couldn't find on the front or back of the book anything about it being a novel. In fact, early on in the book, Rabbi Cahn says it's not fiction but is for real. But the book is in the fiction section. In fact, it won #2 in the fiction genre.

So Rabbi Cahn is not as honest as Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, of Left Behind. He really intends to deceive by littering his book with Bible verses, to trick the reader into thinking and feeling like s/he is reading " God's Word."

When it's really just a figment of Cahn's imagination. The Jews are known for being good story tellers.

So enjoy it like I enjoyed The Shack. Just don't take it so literally, or seriously ... making the mistake of my friend Joanna, and friends in Florida.

[zeek]

Cahn's putative non-fiction book is The Mystery of the Shemitah: The 3,000-Year-Old Mystery That Holds the Secret of America's Future, the World's Future, and Your Future!. It is hyped thusly:

The book you can't afford NOT to read.
It is already affecting your life…
And it WILL affect your future!

It virtually screams to be read!!!

I thought calm was the new happy. Turns out Disturbed is.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Nell

I recommend that you stop reading this topic and pick up The Harbinger. This topic contains misinformation and misrepresentation that are difficult to wade through.

Regardless of whether you buy in to Cahn's premise, you may be able to appreciate that God does warn us when we're about to get into trouble and we really do need to repent and turn to Him, or turn back to Him.

Nell

The modern Rabbinical Judaism is not the same as the Judaism of the ancient times. That is why Paul wrote Titus NOT to take "heed to Jewish myths [Rabbinical Judaism] and to commands of men turning away from the truth" (Titus 1:14, my emphasis). (Some translations use "Jewish fables".)

To the Galatians he was more blunt and forthright: "I marvel that you are turning so quickly from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; except there are certain people who trouble you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach a gospel to you other than what we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:6–8). "I do not annul the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing" (2:21, my emphasis).

And he wrote Timothy: "For there will be a time when they will not put up with sound doctrine, but according to their own lusts, they will heap up for themselves teachers, tickling their ears, and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to myths" (2 Timothy 4:3, 4, my emphasis).

Finally, "God will send them strong delusion, in order for them to believe the lie" (2 Thessalonians 2:11, my emphasis).

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by zeek

Cahn's putative non-fiction book is The Mystery of the Shemitah: The 3,000-Year-Old Mystery That Holds the Secret of America's Future, the World's Future, and Your Future!. It is hyped thusly:

The book you can't afford NOT to read.
It is already affecting your life…
And it WILL affect your future!

It virtually screams to be read!!!

This is very, very disturbing.

[Nell]

Here's what I find disturbing: the morning news.

When the President of the United States believes the worst problem facing this world is "global warming", you know you're in trouble. Reminds me of the phrase "Nero fiddled while Rome burned." (Obama played golf while....)

When one terrorist group after another comes on the scene, each more powerful and radical than the last, dedicated to the destruction of the US, you know you're in trouble.

When American citizens (and citizens of other western countries) are beheaded in the public square, you know you're in trouble.

Is there a place, a country, on this planet where there is peace?

Jesus is coming. The stage is being set for...something. I believe most Christians believe this. Jesus hasn't come yet, but one day, He will.

We're told in scripture to "watch and pray". For me, that's what I take away from Jonathan Cahn. I'm watching for what, if anything, may happen in this 7th year.

If Cahn is wrong, nothing lost.

If Cahn is right and we're not forewarned, we might be in trouble. Well OK. We're already in trouble. Let's say, worse trouble. A message of repentance is a good thing. Isn't it? That's really about the sum total of Cahn's message to every person. God will do what He will. I want to be standing with Him and ready for whatever happens. I want to be clean.

What's interesting to me is Israel. I haven't heard much from Israel in the news (Fox News) in the last few weeks. Have you? Do you think Israel is asleep? I'm real curious about what those guys are up to. I'm pretty sure they're not obsessing about "no boots on the ground".

We don't know when He will return, but we are told to watch and pray. Be ready...whatever that means.

If God wanted to send a warning to Christians to repent and turn back to himself, I think He might do it according to the pattern he established in the Old Testament. That's what Cahn is saying. It makes sense, and it's been historically accurate over the last 100 or so years.

Regardless of your take on Cahn, the message of the Bible is the same. Repent for the kingdom is at hand. How bad can it be?

Nell

The verses about tickling ears, sound doctrine, delusion, etc., are good verses, and apply to many situations and circumstances. It would be wise to take each of the verses and dig in to what Cahn is saying to see if, for example, he is perverting the gospel. You can't quote verses at someone just because you think they're guilty. You have to find out where the perversion is. What is the truth Cahn is turning away from?

Using Scriptures to accuse are not proof of guilt. Witness Lee was good at this.

---just a thought

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

Jesus hasn't come yet, but one day, He will.

Check your bible. Mine says he came already.

If Cahn is wrong, nothing lost.

Which raises an interesting question. How would we know if he is wrong? Is his hypothesis falsifiable?

What's interesting to me is Israel. I haven't heard much from Israel in the news (Fox News) in the last few weeks. Have you?

What? You mean you missed this?

http://nypost.com/2014/09/26/ultra-o...next-to-women/

They were flying back to Israel for Rosh Hashanah.

If God wanted to send a warning to Christians to repent and turn back to himself, I think He might do it according to the pattern he established in the Old Testament. That's what Cahn is saying. It makes sense, and it's been historically accurate over the last 100 or so years.

What God wants is always an open question. I used to be in a cult that claimed to know the answer in rather concrete terms. No harm done.

Regardless of your take on Cahn, the message of the Bible is the same. Repent for the kingdom is at hand. How bad can it be?

Another open question. Those kind of questions can be thought provoking, I'll grant you that. In view of our putative "sin nature", it is most prudent to be in a constant state of repentance.

It would be wise to take each of the verses and dig in to what Cahn is saying to see if, for example, he is perverting the gospel.

The way accusations fly around here, that would make Cahn a member of a rather large club.

---just a thought

Thought appreciated.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

We don't know when He will return, but we are told to watch and pray. Be ready...whatever that means.

What ever that means? Does it mean buying books, donating, and throwing support to those that make merchandise of the second coming?

Cahn reminds me of the sensation made of The Bible Code. It's like he's gone thru the Bible and figured out God's combination lock in the sky, or some such.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

What? You mean you missed this?

http://nypost.com/2014/09/26/ultra-o...next-to-women/

They were flying back to Israel for Rosh Hashanah.

When I first read this story my first thought was: So that's the Law Dancing wants us to love.

And worse, these were Haredi orthodox Jews. So according to Dancing's "wake up call," to "love the law," when we have sex with our wife we have to do it thru a hole in a sheet that covers her.

Discounting stoning, and the happiness of dashing babies against the stones (Psalm 137:9), the law is just too corny and funny to love.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Nell

The verses about tickling ears, sound doctrine, delusion, etc., are good verses, and apply to many situations and circumstances. It would be wise to take each of the verses and dig in to what Cahn is saying to see if, for example, he is perverting the gospel. You can't quote verses at someone just because you think they're guilty. You have to find out where the perversion is. What is the truth Cahn is turning away from?

I did not quote verses at anyone because I considered them guilty; I quoted these verses in sequence because they speak a serious and solemn general warning.

And it is obvious I was not speaking to Jonathan Cahn.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

When I first read this story my first thought was: So that's the Law Dancing wants us to love.

And worse, these were Haredi orthodox Jews. So according to Dancing's "wake up call," to "love the law," when we have sex with our wife we have to do it thru a hole in a sheet that covers her.

Discounting stoning, and the happiness of dashing babies against the stones (Psalm 137:9), the law is just too corny and funny to love.

Harold I'm shocked that you let zeek beat you to the punch on that one! I expected to see one of you jump on that before the flight landed!

Come on guys, Dancing has repeatedly and specifically said she is not referring to these post biblical, totally man-made religious edicts. Go ahead and argue and contend against WHAT SHE HAS ACTUALLY SAID and not against a straw man. You guys are WAY better than this.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Harold I'm shocked that you let zeek beat you to the punch on that one! I expected to see one of you jump on that before the flight landed!

Come on guys, Dancing has repeatedly and specifically said she is not referring to these post biblical, totally man-made religious edicts. Go ahead and argue and contend against WHAT SHE HAS ACTUALLY SAID and not against a straw man. You guys are WAY better than this.

How did you make a connection between that news story and Dancing? I made no reference to Dancing nor did I mean to imply anything about her. You're reading too hard. Nell said she hadn't heard enough about Israel lately so I cited a fun "Jews in the news item". They were on their way to Israel. Like everybody here I LOVE the Jews, the Torah, Israel and all the right stuff. But, I'm glad I wasn't on that plane.

I never really entered full on into the debate between Dancing and all those other folks. Do you think she's right with her Jesus + Law hypothesis? I thought that, for the Christian, Jesus replaced the Law as the sole mediator with God. No? Well, see-- that's why I come here to LCD---to learn.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Harold I'm shocked that you let zeek beat you to the punch on that one!

.
I admit I thought about bringing it up a couple of days ago. But decided against it. Then Zeek brought it up and I thought it might be of the Spirit, or at least a synchronicity, to remark about it.

Originally Posted by Un2Him

Dancing has repeatedly and specifically said she is not referring to these post biblical, totally man-made religious edicts.

Okay okay, but Dancing has not made it clear. But maybe she does mean we're to love the law of Reformed Judaism.

She admits to not eating kosher so, she'd prolly be okay with sitting next to a male on an airplane, prolly don't use a sheet, and don't get happiness from dashing babies ... thank God.

To be honest, after all this discussion of law, I don't know what is meant. It seems, the real strawman, as presented so far, as constructed here, is "The Law."

Moreover, and more importantly, is it Jesus, or Jesus plus law?

Come on bro UntoHim, you're better than this.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by zeek

How did you make a connection between that news story and Dancing? I made no reference to Dancing nor did I mean to imply anything about her. You're reading too hard. Nell said she hadn't heard enough about Israel lately so I cited a fun "Jews in the news item". They were on their way to Israel. Like everybody here I LOVE the Jews, the Torah, Israel and all the right stuff. But, I'm glad I wasn't on that plane.

Sorry, zeek you're right. I too often look at you and our friend awareness as a tag team of sorts. I know better now. Shame on me. Amen to not being on that plane. When I read that story I thought about the former (I think, I hope) Local Church weird, super bizarre group chant of "Ooooooh Looooooord Jeeeeeesus" in such situations (as the praying-out-loud Jewish men). I guess we meant well like the Jewish men, but I don't believe God was even the slightest involved in either activity.

I never really entered full on into the debate between Dancing and all those other folks. Do you think she's right with her Jesus + Law hypothesis? I thought that, for the Christian, Jesus replaced the Law as the sole mediator with God. No? Well, see-- that's why I come here to LCD---to learn.

Opps, wrong thread for this one. But in short, our friend Dancing, IF she is pushing "Jesus + Law" I would personally, strongly disagree with this kind of thinking. I personally don't agree with much of the whole "Messianic Judaism" movement. The reasons for me are much more theological than cultural, if you know what I mean. Again, probably a subject for a different thread. I would say that she is still, for the most part, if she colors between the lines, within the general theme of this forum. And that's all I gotta say about that.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Friedel

I did not quote verses at anyone because I considered them guilty; I quoted these verses in sequence because they speak a serious and solemn general warning.

And it is obvious I was not speaking to Jonathan Cahn.

I'm glad you clarified your message. It wasn't obvious to me that you weren't speaking to Cahn, because of the context in which you quoted those strong verses. Specifically, this topic, has turned into a dogpile on Jonathan Cahn, so I thought you were rolling out the heavy artillery and moving in for the kill! My mistake.

Thank you for clearing it up though!

Such verses are indeed a solemn warning.

Nell

[OBW]

I think that there is quite a bit of muddling of this thread with the one(s) where the law is being discussed. There is a link, but it is rather small. This one is suggesting that instead of looking at Israel and the Jews, we should refocus the prophecies concerning Israel so that they point to the US (and more importantly, to us).

There is no doubt that we should pray for our leaders, as should all Christians of all countries pray for their leaders. Pray for peace. But unlike the hints that it would come, then the direct discourses through the prophets to repent and return the nation to following God (speaking of and to Israel/Judah) there is no modern equivalent because the kingdom of Israel, an earthly kingdom with God as its head, has been replaced by the kingdom of God which has no earthly center, but is found in the church under the headship of Christ.

And the last time I looked, the US has never come close to being a church. It is a kingdom of the earth. It was established by a collection of men who included some Christians. And it included some that wanted a moral society that looked a lot like the morality of the Bible.

But other than fishing around for things that we can "back-fill" to line up with something OT, there is nothing in the Bible that says any of it is meaningful. It may indicate that some thought they could add a pinch of this and a dash of that and get favored-nation status. And whether or not anyone actually did all of that 200 years ago, others are now scouring history, architecture, etc., looking for things they can backfill to create a myth — another genealogy — by which to call down God to do our bidding.

It is absolutely correct to pray — for ourselves, for others, for the nation, and the world. Those prayers should be related to the kingdom of God. To the furtherance of the gospel. To the ability to live lives in peace.

But the kind of myth about the US and its supposed position with God, or the one they believe it could have, is a variant on the prosperity gospel. Just has a less personally selfish goal.

Ask us to pray for peace. Ask us to pray for the lives of men. Ask us to pray that people would return to God.

But don't ask us to pray for a myth that imbues any kingdom of the earth with the benefits of a theocracy. That is busy trying to find markers of goodness that will make it special to God. Seems the best you will get it a nation that doesn't even rise to the spiritual level of a Thyatira — unless you execute or incarcerate everyone who does not live the Christian life. Or at least push their immorality out of the public eye. And then you have to consider the spiritual degradation to have done that.

A lot of cleaning of the outside of a filthy cup.

Let's pray for the people. Live our lives in the manner that we have been commanded. Seems that we despise that charge. But it is the one-talent command that we all have. Not everyone is called to go to Africa or Asia as a missionary. Or be the guy on the street corner preaching to whoever will listen. Or just seeking out opportunities to speak. But if we can't live the life of an image bearer of God in our regular living, how are we expected to be much more than a curiosity when we open our mouths and this incongruous collection of words comes out. Like the guy who just pummeled his opponent in the ring and then gives "the glory to God." Really? God helped you do that? Beat another human nearly to death? Probably going to have early onset Alzheimer's or MS or something like that? That was for the glory of God?

Reminds me of the guy I used to work with that was the most vocal concerning his Christianity, yet every year he drove to and from NYC using yet another radar detector that he immediately returned under the 30-day money-back guarantee. He had no idea how everyone laughed at his alleged morality. That one is blatant. But what about the rest of us? Do we live as God commanded? Or just claim God's grace and forgiveness and hope it will get better? Salt and light is not about preaching the gospel. It is about living right. That is the gospel — changed lives.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Sorry, zeek you're right. I too often look at you and our friend awareness as a tag team of sorts. I know better now.

Just to be clear. Zeek in I do think similarly. But we are not the same at all. I came up thru the years with computers, and the various customers associated. Zeek came up thru the years with people, and their mental conditions. (I exasperate him. He's unable to treat (fix) my mental condition ... he has taught me, tho, that calm is the new happiness ... and I expose him to my laughing ministry. Laughing is God's secret in the cosmos. - Luke 6:21)

And we do talk on cells, on mostly a daily basis, (unlike you Untohim, that don't call or take my calls), and we email each other. But, we had not discussed the crazy Jews on that plane, nor did I email him about it. He came into that headline on his own.

So he didn't tag me to come into the ring for a body slam. I came in without a tag ... in clear violation of the rules ... to do a body slam ... and quickly ran back to my corner.

Love ya UntoHim. Yer a good referee.

Ha-rold

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

This one is suggesting that instead of looking at Israel and the Jews, we should refocus the prophecies concerning Israel so that they point to the US (and more importantly, to us).

I blame David Barton, of Wallbuilders fame, for propagating these myths of the Christian founding of America, and making Christians believe America is the center of Bible prophesies. He fails to understand if we tear down the wall that separates church and state, Americans, like Europeans, will associate religion with the government and will run to non-believing.

But Christians hang on his every word. Christians seem so gullible for it.

It is true that by founding freedom of religion (from the state) they (the founding fathers) provided the way for religion to thrive in America. But now Christians, thanks to Barton, are turning on that freedom ... to their demise.

So I add. I won't stone anybody, I won't dash babies, I won't go around rebuking, and I will not ever support a theocracy. Not even in heaven.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

In any case, I'm thinking that Nell's interest in Cahn's writings probably does not include attending several Cahn meetings a week, listening to people call Cahn the minister of the age, or living in Cahn corporate living, etc., etc. Hopefully, anyway?

You are correct!

Nell

[UntoHim]

Ok, this thread is wondering... big time. I just realized this thread is in "The Thread of Gold by Jane Carole Anderson" thread. I don't think she ever ended for this thing to end up discussing the teachings and norms of the Heredi Jews. I noticed the original YouTube link to Jonathan Cahn's address is now broken.
Here is a link that works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9xMxkNROto
Anyway, let's get back to a discussion of this address given by Cahn or let's just let it fade back into the archives.

[awareness]

In watching the video my first impression of Cahn is that I'm listening to a pitchman, like Billy Mays.

Cahn weaves an interesting analogy between ancient Israel and America, but the devil is in the details.

America was not founded by God like Israel was founded by God. The parallel doesn't hold. So his whole premise falls apart ... and with it, his wild far fetched story.

He's an ear tickler ...

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Sorry, zeek you're right. I too often look at you and our friend awareness as a tag team of sorts. I know better now. Shame on me. Amen to not being on that plane. When I read that story I thought about the former (I think, I hope) Local Church weird, super bizarre group chant of "Ooooooh Looooooord Jeeeeeesus" in such situations (as the praying-out-loud Jewish men). I guess we meant well like the Jewish men, but I don't believe God was even the slightest involved in either activity.

Apology accepted.

COLOR="Navy"]Oops, wrong thread for this one. But in short, our friend Dancing, IF she is pushing "Jesus + Law" I would personally, strongly disagree with this kind of thinking. I personally don't agree with much of the whole "Messianic Judaism" movement. The reasons for me are much more theological than cultural, if you know what I mean. Again, probably a subject for a different thread. I would say that she is still, for the most part, if she colors between the lines, within the general theme of this forum. And that's all I gotta say about that.[/COLOR]

My impression is that people when they leave the local church go in all kinds of different directions. Some leave the Christian faith altogether. Some abandon all religion for secular life. Some go to other religions. Some take up another brand of Christianity.

For those of us who claim the Christian faith, the commonality is our allegiance with-- our heart connection to Jesus not some other thing or person be it the Torah, our political opinions or whatever.

As to Awareness/Harold, I regularly disagree with him on all kinds of issues and tell him so. If he and I come down on the same side of some issue it is because we actually agree. I don't participate in hidden alliances or agendas, cliques or coalitions with Harold or anyone else here.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

What about his claim that Isaiah 9:10 parallels 9/11? That's so far fetched that it reaches into the absurd. And all his other parallels are stretched beyond reality too.

Since you asked, here are the verses, and following are the quotes that Senators Daschle and Edwards, then Pres. Obama, in the speeches they delivered on Capitol Hill which make the connection to Isaiah 9:10.

Isaiah 9:8-16
8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.
9 And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart,
10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.
11 Therefore the Lord shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together;
12 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
13 For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the Lord of hosts.
14 Therefore the Lord will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.
15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed

Isaiah 9:10 is a vow of defiance. Isaiah 9:11 is a prophecy of future calamity.

On September 12, 2001, the day after the attacks on America, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, in a speech on Capitol Hill quotes Isaiah 9:10...we will rebuild. He is surely totally unaware that this verse is a vow of defiance to God. Yet, here is the vow.

Three years later on September 11, 2004, Senator John Edwards quotes the same verse, Isaiah 9:10 and from this verse his entire speech is derived.

February 24, 2009, Barack Obama, on Capitol Hill, states this:
I want every American to know this: We will rebuild. We will recover. And the United States of America will emerge stronger than before.

These men were all speaking to the American people, and on behalf of the American people. They were all referring to the attacks on 9/11.

How is that far fetched? How is that absurd? Daschle, Edwards and Obama made the connection to Isa. 9:10. Not Cahn. Cahn just noticed what they did. Were they aware the verses were spoken in defiance to God? Probably not. They were likely speaking in defiance to those who perpetrated the attacks. Regardless, they were loose in the way they handled the Word.

Coincidence? You may believe that. Speech writers love to quote the Bible, but sure this one could just be a coincidence that 3 men quoted the same verse without knowing it was from the Bible. If this was the only message, you might be right. This is only one example from Cahn's case.

Regardless, its a fascinating compilation of facts like this one and it's overlay on the Old Testament pattern.

Of course, "The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones:" refers to the twin towers. Interestingly though, at ground zero there actually was a sycamore tree that was uprooted and later replaced with a cedar. Somehow the uprooted sycamore wasn't covered in rubble...it was that close to ground zero. The uprooted sycamore is still there. ( "...the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.")


Nell

Just so you'll know, Cahn makes no comment on 9:10 and 9/11. That is likely coincidence, but who knows?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Of course, "The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones:" refers to the twin towers.

That clearly is a far fetched premise. America is not Israel, like back when Isaiah was written (742-538 BC).

"The bricks fallen down?"

What bricks? And when did the towers just fall down? What I saw of the fallen towers was not bricks, but iron girders.

"but we will build with hewn stones?"

That's not the case now. We don't build with hewn stones, like they did back then.

"the sycomores are cut down?"

What cedars got cut down, related to the twin towers?

"but we will change them into cedars."

So the supposed twin tower sycomores got cut down and now we're gonna change them to cedars?

Sounds loony to me. Just merchandising in fear.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

Isaiah 9:10 is a vow of defiance. Isaiah 9:11 is a prophecy of future calamity.

On September 12, 2001, the day after the attacks on America, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, in a speech on Capitol Hill quotes Isaiah 9:10...we will rebuild. He is surely totally unaware that this verse is a vow of defiance to God. Yet, here is the vow.

On what basis does this now-fulfilled prophecy relating to Israel apply to the US?

Are we given Carte Blanche to find similarities of modern events to events in the OT times and force them to be prophecies about now? It that because Jesus and the other NT writers seemed to be able to repurpose the propchecy about a virgin (young woman?) bearing a child to be a foretelling of the coming Messiah?

This is not even Christian. It is making the revelation of God into the book of mysterious prophecies. It turns the message of Christ into the message of America. And if the message of Christ looks too much like the message of America (even in its allegedly "better" days) then I will probably give up by status as a card-carrying believer. Those days were the days of slavery. Of witch hunts. Of the partial slaughter and ultimate subjugation of the indigenous people of the land in the name of "manifest destiny."

We think the early days were so blessed? In 1812, our nation was under attack by the British. They burned our capital. It was essentially a stalemate. We did not win the war (that is revisionist history). Instead, the British decided that it was stretching its resources too thin to fight us while they fought Napoleon and France, so they signed a treaty and let us go in peace.

Blessed nations don't have to send warships to Africa to stop others from plundering their merchant vessels on the seas.

Go to the cemeteries of rural parts of the US and look for rashes of deaths during specific time periods a century and more ago. Famine? Cholera? Typhoid? Attack by hostiles? Don't look specially blessed.

I am not claiming that we have had a specially harsh time. Not really anything different than many others. But since we like to cherry pick what kind of benefit we will call a blessing, then almost everyone can lay claim to blessings. And many of them can do so without being able to claim to follow the God of the Bible at all. Democracy began with an experiment in Athens prior to Christ (and without any Jewish influence) in a land full of idolatry. And so on.

You keep saying things like "if you see it." Well, it is something that can be read into scripture just like the ground of the church, joining the KKK being to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, the prosperity gospel, and so many other things that are not there in the text, but are found between the lines by people with something they want to find between the lines.

Note that most of the things attributed to Nostradamus are either so vague as to be subject to easy revisionism, or were never written by him. The same can be said of these kinds of things that are not associated with the gospel of Christ.

I pray that you will be awakened from this stupor. That sound teachings concerning Christ will return as the thing that comes from scripture.

[OBW]

I want every American to know this: We will rebuild. We will recover. And the United States of America will emerge stronger than before.

Where is this statement contraindicated in the Bible? Where is the determination of a nation to rebuild its infrastructure after an attack by a foreign hostile something that is in defiance of God?

So what that some of these statements included an incorrectly understood verse in the Bible. Do you really thing that this will bring down God's judgment on the nation? Using someone else's words to say what they wanted to say? Note that Paul somewhat borrowed from Socrates in at least one place. Should he be relegated to the status of heathen and pagan for it? Does it make what he says pagan?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Where is this statement contraindicated in the Bible? Where is the determination of a nation to rebuild its infrastructure after an attack by a foreign hostile something that is in defiance of God?

So what that some of these statements included an incorrectly understood verse in the Bible. Do you really thing that this will bring down God's judgment on the nation? Using someone else's words to say what they wanted to say? Note that Paul somewhat borrowed from Socrates in at least one place. Should he be relegated to the status of heathen and pagan for it? Does it make what he says pagan?

After every tornado in Oklahoma, earthquake in California, and every Hurricane on the Gulf, some politician will say "we will rebuild."

Little did we know!

[awareness]

What irony. Chan is speaking at the:

PRESIDENTIAL INAUGURAL PRAYER BREAKFAST

Telling us America has turned away from God. While he's accepted at this prayer breakfast.

Just this alone disproves his claims that America has turned away from God.

What a joke. But it provides comedy in time of need.

Ha.

[UntoHim]

Harold, do you have anything to say about what was actually said in the address? We already know how you feel about Mr. Cahn, and the general thesis he put forth in this speech, you have made that abundantly clear already.

Hey, and this goes for everybody, let's give our sister Nell a little bit more consideration and respect here. It's no wonder why we have so little participation from women/sisters around this place. Let me tell you, I've had some conversations with Nell on the phone and believe you me, she can handle herself quite well with anybody in a debate, it's just that this particular venue here does not give somebody with limited time a fair hearing. People like me, Mike and Harold can take pot shots at people like Nell and she might not have the time, interest or energy to make a substantial response. Just because someone posts something here on this forum does not make it The Gospel Truth, so let's not hold them to the same standard as if they were defending The Gospel Truth.

I have ALWAYS had some basic hopes, wishes, prayers, and (fill-in-the-blank) for this forum from the very beginning. First and foremost is that it could be a place of open, frank and civil discussions between CURRENT and FORMER members of the Local Church. Much to my disappointment, this first hope and wish has hardly been realized. Another hope and wish and prayer has been that there could be some open, frank and civil discussions between us former members, irrespective (I use this term advisedly) of where we find ourselves on our individual paths. Of course this second one has proved to be much more easier said than done!

Bottom line - let's try to be as open, frank and CIVIL as we can muster. Anyone who has been around here knows UntoHim's 1st Commandment - "Thou shalt not misunderstand on purpose".

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

What irony. Chan is speaking at the:

PRESIDENTIAL INAUGURAL PRAYER BREAKFAST

Telling us America has turned away from God. While he's accepted at this prayer breakfast.

Just this alone disproves his claims that America has turned away from God.

What a joke. But it provides comedy in time of need.

Ha.

Are you claiming that the fact that Cahn spoke at a presidential inaugural breakfast disproves that America has turned away from God? If that's true then I suppose the fact that Herod consulted John the Baptist was proof that Judea hadn't turned away from God. But, John's decapitation, Jesus' crucifixion, and the destruction of the temple kind of disproved that, right? Or is there some special significance you are reading in Cahn speaking there?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Harold, do you have anything to say about what was actually said in the address?

Yes. His claim that America was founded by God. Jesus did not write the constitution, nor the Bill of Rights, nor the Declaration of Independence.

The founders were running from government controlled religion. They weren't about to make the same mistake. So the founding principle was freedom of religion, or freedom from any religion at all, and no government sponsored religion.

That's why Jefferson assured the Danbury Baptist church that there would be separation of church and state.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
Jefferson - Jan. 1. 1802

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. " – Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Jefferson

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." –Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
- Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

Benjamin Franklin
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

James Madison, American president and political theorist (1751-1836).
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." From - Thomas Paine (1737-1809)- The Age of Reason

John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli on June 10, 1797 that states :

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

So Cahn is wrong about America being founded on God and Christian principles. America was founded on freedom. Therefore, another premise, besides Isaiah 9:10, falls down.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes. His claim that America was founded by God. Jesus did not write the constitution, nor the Bill of Rights, nor the Declaration of Independence.

The founders were running from government controlled religion. They weren't about to make the same mistake. So the founding principle was freedom of religion, or freedom from any religion at all, and no government sponsored religion.

That's why Jefferson assured the Danbury Baptist church that there would be separation of church and state.




So Cahn is wrong about America being founded on God and Christian principles. America was founded on freedom. Therefore, another premise, besides Isaiah 9:10, falls down.

I agree. Referring to the USA Cahn said: "They brought forth it's first government in the name of Jesus." This is wrong. The U.S' Constitution says no such thing.

[Nell]

America: The Day of Dedication (Consecration)

While not direct quotes, the following narrative is from The Harbinger and from George Washington's first Inaugural Address. (Not the U.S. Constitution, etc.)

On April 30, 1789, the day of the inauguration of the first President of the United States, George Washington spoke the following words:

"...It would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official Act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the Universe, who presides in the Councils of Nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that his benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the People of the United States, a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes."

And then a warning:

"...Since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven, can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained. "

Of course, everyone remembers from American history that the first capitol of the United States was not Washington, D.C., but New York City. The place where Washington gave this inaugural address was in St. Paul's Chapel which stands to this day. Washington took the oath of office at Federal Hall, a short distance from St. Paul's Chapel. If you Google map St. Paul's Chapel in New York City, you'll see it is at the corner of Ground Zero.

All the buildings close to Ground Zero were either destroyed or ruined...except for one...St. Paul's Chapel. The little stone building where George Washington dedicated America to God...how was it spared? There was an object between the Chapel and the force of the blast which protected it. What object? A sycamore tree. The sycamore absorbed the force of the blast when the twin towers fell, and was uprooted, much like the pattern described in Isaiah 9:10.

The little place where America was dedicated to God was protected from destruction. St. Paul's Chapel is often called "The Miracle of 9/11". If not for the sycamore taking the hit, St. Paul's Chapel would have likely been obliterated along with the many surrounding buildings destroyed when the twin towers fell.

Fascinating.

Nell

[Ohio]

So , based on these last posts, it seems like America was founded on freedom by numerous brilliant men, but the first President and General of the army was a God fearing man

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So , based on these last posts, it seems like America was founded on freedom by numerous brilliant men, but the first President and General of the army was a God fearing man

Yes. Numerous brilliant Christian men and one who consecrated the newly formed United States of America to God as his first act as President.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...es.asp?id=8755

Nell

[OBW]

Just took a look at the Ground zero site and while the fact that "not a window was broken" is a little unexpected, the building was actually quite protected from the brunt of the power of the outward thrust of debris from the falling towers. They were essentially 2 to 3 blocks away to the WSW with WTC 4 & 5 (I've seen a map that designated them as 3 & 4, but I think 4 & 5 is correct) in between (which did not fall). There is a sizeable gap between 4 and 5, but it does not provide what would be a direct line between the south tower and the church because there is a building immediately south of the church (a hotel) which somewhat shielded the church. The church is not against the west street (Church street), but the east street (Broadway). The West side is the cemetery that is full of large trees, including the sycamore that is mentioned. While it is true that the sycamore was uprooted, it may have been the only thing that was likely in the direct path of any of the primary outflow from the falling towers. Since we are not talking about things falling on it from up high, blocks away, we are talking about the outward flow of force with dust, ash, and debris as the buildings collapse where they stood.

It could be asserted that maybe a window or two could or should have broken, but that is not a certainty. It is not as if the church was simply across the street from the fall. It was not.

Seems that the only ones who want to make a big deal about the whole thing are those with a message to sell.

And so we are once again presented with myths and endless genealogies.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yes. Numerous brilliant Christian men and one who consecrated the newly formed United States of America to God as his first act as President.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...es.asp?id=8755

Nell

How did I know David Barton would be pulled out of the woodwork?

He too believes that America is the center of God's concern.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Nell

Yes. Numerous brilliant Christian men and one who consecrated the newly formed United States of America to God as his first act as President.

Nell

I read George Washington's full address at his inauguration. The closest he came to mentioning "God" is to refer to "that Almighty Being". Who was he actually referring to? I am not convinced he was necessarily a believer; maybe just religious. Perhaps I was expecting too much. I don't know.

What I do know is that Washington smoked pot, as did Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, who also used opium/laudanum for most of his life. :-)

I remember Ronald Reagan quoting John 3:16 at a prayer breakfast in 1984. Perhaps his speech writer did that quote for him, perhaps he really meant it.

Who remembers the president of Taiwan around the middle 1980s? He was a follower of Witness Lee and I once heard someone describe him as a "three-meetings-a-week-brother". I assume he was a true believer.

[Friedel]

Thought all might enjoy this quote:

“… We were created, and after the fall redeemed, that we might be worshipers of the Most High God. The reason God made man in His image was that he might appreciate God and admire and adore and worship Him. Worship means ‘to feel in the heart.’ A person who merely goes through the form and doesn’t feel anything is not worshiping. Only the Holy Spirit can enable a fallen man to worship God acceptably.

“Now because we were created to worship, worship is the normal employment of moral beings … not something stuck on or added. It is something that is built into human nature. Worship is the one shining gem that is lost to the modern church, and I believe that we ought to search for this until we find it.”

From A.W. Tozer in “Worship: The Missing Jewel in the Evangelical Church.”

[Nell]

Here's another one for all to enjoy.

"A Pharisee is hard on others and easy on himself, but a spiritual man is easy on others and hard on himself."

A.W. Tozer

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

America: The Day of Dedication (Consecration)

While not direct quotes, the following narrative is from The Harbinger and from George Washington's first Inaugural Address. (Not the U.S. Constitution, etc.)

On April 30, 1789, the day of the inauguration of the first President of the United States, George Washington spoke the following words:

"...It would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official Act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the Universe, who presides in the Councils of Nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that his benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the People of the United States, a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes."

And then a warning:

"...Since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven, can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained. "

Of course, everyone remembers from American history that the first capitol of the United States was not Washington, D.C., but New York City. The place where Washington gave this inaugural address was in St. Paul's Chapel which stands to this day. Washington took the oath of office at Federal Hall, a short distance from St. Paul's Chapel. If you Google map St. Paul's Chapel in New York City, you'll see it is at the corner of Ground Zero.

All the buildings close to Ground Zero were either destroyed or ruined...except for one...St. Paul's Chapel. The little stone building where George Washington dedicated America to God...how was it spared? There was an object between the Chapel and the force of the blast which protected it. What object? A sycamore tree. The sycamore absorbed the force of the blast when the twin towers fell, and was uprooted, much like the pattern described in Isaiah 9:10.

The little place where America was dedicated to God was protected from destruction. St. Paul's Chapel is often called "The Miracle of 9/11". If not for the sycamore taking the hit, St. Paul's Chapel would have likely been obliterated along with the many surrounding buildings destroyed when the twin towers fell.

Fascinating.

Nell

So, let me see if I follow your reasoning here. God was behind the deaths of the seemingly innocent people who perished in the twin towers in the attacks on 9/11/2001, but He used a tree to spare an inanimate building for symbolic purposes?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Friedel

Thought all might enjoy this quote:

“… We were created, and after the fall redeemed, that we might be worshipers of the Most High God. The reason God made man in His image was that he might appreciate God and admire and adore and worship Him. Worship means ‘to feel in the heart.’ A person who merely goes through the form and doesn’t feel anything is not worshiping. Only the Holy Spirit can enable a fallen man to worship God acceptably.

“Now because we were created to worship, worship is the normal employment of moral beings … not something stuck on or added. It is something that is built into human nature. Worship is the one shining gem that is lost to the modern church, and I believe that we ought to search for this until we find it.”

From A.W. Tozer in “Worship: The Missing Jewel in the Evangelical Church.”

I hate to say it, but my reading of the account in Genesis did not involve man admiring, adoring, or worshipping God. It did involve being put in charge of the created earth. It did involve a time with God, but that time was not described. I put this with the declaration that the highest goal of man is to . . . . You know the one. It is lofty. It sounds very spiritual. But I just cannot find where that is what Jesus required of us. Or God in general (in the OT) for that matter.

And based on the amount of time that the children of Israel were required to spend worshipping and sacrificing to God out of the year, those pathetic, mooing Christians that only go for one to one-and-a-half hours each week get in more worship time than the Jews likely did (at least prior to the development of the synagogues).

I think that Tozer is right to say that the manner of worship we often engage in is not very satisfying (to God — although likely to man or we wouldn't do it).

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

So, let me see if I follow your reasoning here. God was behind the deaths of the seemingly innocent people who perished in the twin towers in the attacks on 9/11/2001, but He used a tree to spare an inanimate building for symbolic purposes?

Here's a funny take:

We had a Sycamore growing in the front yard, under powerlines. The power company said it had to go. They CUT it down. Unlike the Sycamore at ground zero - that was pushed down, not CUT down.

Anyway the power company offered a replacement. A Cedar was requested, but not offered. We selected a Dogwood.

Well Isaiah 9:10 was speaking about my house. We've had things fall down, and have hewn stones.

And the Dogwood speaks of Christ :

In Jesus' time, the dogwood grew
To a stately size and a lovely hue.
'Twas strong and firm, its branches interwoven.
For the cross of Christ its timbers were chosen.
Seeing the distress at this use of their wood
Christ made a promise which still holds good:
"Never again shall the dogwood grow
Large enough to be used so.
Slender and twisted, it shall be
With blossoms like the cross for all to see.
As blood stains the petals marked in brown,
The blossom's center wears a thorny crown.
All who see it will remember Me
Crucified on a cross from the dogwood tree.
Cherished and protected, this tree shall be
A reminder to all of My agony."

So my Sycamore was predicted in Isaiah.

See, I can draw grand supernatural links, parallels, and scenarios too.

Don't follow Cahn or Lee, follow me. I take Paypal donations.

[bearbear]

Not to take away from Cahn, because I personally do think he's on to something (the seven year pattern of stock market crashes on Elul 29 is too uncanny to ignore), but most of the founders of America, including George Washington were Deists (by Washington's pastor's own admission even). Even further than that, the majority were involved in Freemasonry which like many other secret societies are rebranded Babylonian and Egyptian mystery religions which worship Baal/Ashtoreth. You can't be a true Christian and a freemason because of the secret rituals and vows freemasons require which go against the root of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. (See testimony of a former 32nd degree freemason turned christian here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nL7_B0CIFc)

I personally take the view that America is the Mystery Babylon of Revelation 18 as crazy as it sounds. Here's a talk by Rick Coombes who tried to prove America wasn't Mystery Babylon and ended up writing a book saying that it was. Many Bible Prophecy scholars are also taking on this view including Gary Stearman of Prophecy in the News, one of the largest bible prophecy ministries in the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoiHuNaEIjs

On another note, I've been trying to find the sources for George Washington's consecration of America at Ground Zero / St. Paul's chapel. Does anyone have a link to this historical record?

[Nell]

A harbinger is anything that foreshadows a future event; omen; sign. In the present topic, a harbinger is a warning. A warning is not a bad thing. A warning is a good thing. Don't you think? This narrative is part paraphrase and part direct quotes from the book. I hope it does the book justice.

In Cahn's book "The Harbinger" he writes about warnings that began over twenty-seven hundred years ago in the days of ancient Israel. In the final days of that kingdom, before its judgment, there were nine signs of the nation of Israel heading to judgment.

Nations are made up of people, and the people of Israel ignored the signs. They may have even engaged in the same kind of unnecessary, unkind, derisive and rude mockery we have seen. Not at all becoming children of God.

The people of Israel ignored the signs and continued on a path of defiance against God. They were certainly free to do that. It was the path they chose. They were given time to turn back to God or enter into His judgment. They refused to turn back. In 722 BC they were destroyed. For us today, all we have to do is read. Or read someone else who has an interest in the book. We could also politely share a warning of our own and discuss it with civility and respect as the people of Israel may have done. (I have always thought disrespecting others says more about the disrespecter than the disrespectee.)

Those signs of judgment that appeared in Israel's last days are now appearing on American soil. Some in New York City. Some in Washington DC. Some in the form of objects, others as events, even ceremonies. Some have involved the highest leaders of the land.

Isaiah was not prophesying about America, but a biblical pattern of judgment. The pattern revealed in Isaiah is one that Cahn believes is now replaying in America. I see his point/s.

For many Americans, The Harbinger is connecting the dots to something many, if not most, believers have felt in their hearts for a long time: America is in trouble and likely on a path to judgment. Things can't go on this way forever. Can they? Who can fix this mess?

According to Scripture, God is righteous and judges nations. God is merciful and warns of judgment. God acts in a way that is consistent with His nature and His workings as revealed in Scripture, and He is able to warn a nation of judgment that is to come through the Scriptures. If you see these things happening, or think something is happening, it would be a good time to pay attention.

The Scriptures were written for our instruction. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Judgment vs. mercy is just as relevant today as it was in ancient times.

What happened on September 11, 2001 was carried out by evil men. The Assyrians were also evil men who carried out the attack on ancient Israel that brought about the demise of the Northern Kingdom. God was not with them or for them. God was against them. He is also against the evil of al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

However, God allows and uses all things, both good and evil, for the purposes of redemption. In that purpose, He spared not His own son.

I don't know which is worse, being surprised by a thief in the night, or, having been warned that the thief was coming but choosing to ignore the warning and instead mock the messengers.

1 Thessalonians 5 (NIV)
The Day of the Lord

5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Nell

[awareness]

Another reason I don't fall for this type of doom and gloom is because ever since I was a kid and could read I've seen in the headlines of the gossip rags in the checkout lines in grocery store : World coming to an End, or some such.

When I was young it would scare the beejeebies out of me. My mother, who was longing for the end of the world, provided little comfort.

But the predictions never came true. Now when I spot one of these headlines in the checkout line it's a joke to me. It makes me laugh.

But I love to laugh ... So thanks Jonathan Cahn, you ol' doomer and gloomer.

Personally I think a good old fashion fire and brimstone sermon, like the ones we had when I was growing up in the Southern Baptist Church, takes the cake. (Think of another Jonathan, as in Jonathan Edwards, and his famous "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.")

Originally Posted by Jonathan Edwards

"The bow of God's wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string, and justice bends the arrow at your heart, and strains the bow, and it is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, and that of an angry God, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow one moment from being made drunk with your blood."

Heebie-jeebies ... good ol' doom and gloom ... such warm memories. It warms the cockles of my heart ... and makes me laugh.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by bearbear

On another note, I've been trying to find the sources for George Washington's consecration of America at Ground Zero / St. Paul's chapel. Does anyone have a link to this historical record?

Try these:

http://www.ourdocuments.gov/print_fr...ech+%281789%29

http://www.inaugural.senate.gov/days...orship-service

http://www.redstate.com/diary/qbart/...ington-prayer/

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepre...firstinaug.htm

[Nell]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Not to take away from Cahn, because I personally do think he's on to something (the seven year pattern of stock market crashes on Elul 29 is too uncanny to ignore), but most of the founders of America, including George Washington were Deists (by Washington's pastor's own admission even). Even further than that, the majority were involved in Freemasonry which like many other secret societies are rebranded Babylonian and Egyptian mystery religions which worship Baal/Ashtoreth. You can't be a true Christian and a freemason because of the secret rituals and vows freemasons require which go against the root of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. (See testimony of a former 32nd degree freemason turned christian here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nL7_B0CIFc)

I personally take the view that America is the Mystery Babylon of Revelation 18 as crazy as it sounds. Here's a talk by Rick Coombes who tried to prove America wasn't Mystery Babylon and ended up writing a book saying that it was. Many Bible Prophecy scholars are also taking on this view including Gary Stearman of Prophecy in the News, one of the largest bible prophecy ministries in the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoiHuNaEIjs

On another note, I've been trying to find the sources for George Washington's consecration of America at Ground Zero / St. Paul's chapel. Does anyone have a link to this historical record?

You're right. That's my point exactly. Too many signs to ignore. Really though, it's not about Cahn. He's the messenger and he might be on to something.

The Founding Fathers weren't perfect, which in my mind makes this scenario even more interesting. God works with what he has.

The next date to watch is September 13, 2015, Elul 29 of this current Shemitah which began September 25, 2014.

In the United States this week alone we've seen an American beheaded in Oklahoma, and a confirmed ebola case in Dallas. Maybe we should start making a list.

Nell

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Nell

You're right. That's my point exactly. Too many signs to ignore. Really though, it's not about Cahn. He's the messenger and he might be on to something.

The Founding Fathers weren't perfect, which in my mind makes this scenario even more interesting. God works with what he has.

The next date to watch is September 13, 2015, Elul 29 of this current Shemitah which began September 25, 2014.

In the United States this week alone we've seen an American beheaded in Oklahoma, and a confirmed ebola case in Dallas. Maybe we should start making a list.

Is Jonathan Cahn practicing some kind of divination with his harbingers?


Nell

I hope you do not mind me asking: "the next date to watch" for what? What is Cahn's nine harbingers supposed to indicate or what will it prove?

Reading about Cahn and listening to some of his speaking it reminds me of John Robert Stevens who used pyramids for his date-setting.

Is this not some kind of divination?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

The Founding Fathers weren't perfect,

Hey sis Nell, you are right. the founding fathers weren't perfect. In fact, they weren't even close to the type of Christians today, that are seeking to revise founding history, to make it seem like the founders were evangelicals. They weren't. If these revisionist evangelicals today were back there with the founding fathers they would have been preaching sermons against those founding fathers for not even being Christian.

But I see a common arrogance between these revisionist evangelical Christians today and the Christians that came here from Europe ; those spouting "manifest destiny," those that wrote home claiming they were here "taking the promise land," those that Ben Franklin remarked about when he said, "I hate these Christians going around with a Bible in one hand, and an ax in the other, to scalp Indians with."

This effort to paint the founders as Evangelicals is hubris. This effort to claim America was found by God is hubris.

God did not make a covenant with the founders like with Abraham. That did not happen.

The founding of America was a very human effort. And it was nasty, like Israel was ("thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" Deut 20:16). I don't even see a smidgen of Christ in it. The Christians came here and committed genocide against the first nation peoples. They did not love their neighbors.

America was founded by God. What a joke. It's Christian arrogance, not humility, that's making this claim ... the same arrogance that was scalping Indians to steal their land. There was nothing Christian about it. It was all tooooo human.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

...This effort to claim America was found by God is hubris.

There is a lot of human behavior surrounding the birth of this country that cannot be reconciled with logic or common civility, much less Christian principles. The same can be said of ancient Israel. I think they may have us beat, though.

I don't believe America was "founded by God" either. I have not seen those words in Cahn's work. It may be there, but I haven't seen it. Historical writings by the Founding Fathers indicate some degree of biblical influence and Christian influence, but "founded by God" isn't something I've seen in Cahn's work. Regardless, I don't believe that's the point Cahn is trying to make.

This is me, but since the Founding Fathers did make some degree of commitment, consecration, etc., to God, America as a nation and a people are bound by their consecration or vows. This would be accurate according to Scripture...you are bound by the vows you make. That's just what I think. I don't know how accurate that is...God knows.

Cahn's work is about the pattern found in Isaiah regarding how God dealt with/judged Israel and the similarities to what may be happening in America today.

The Bible is full of imperfect men (in fact, all but One) and their pursuit of God. More accurately perhaps, God's pursuit of the perfect man He created who subsequently fell into sin. This sinful man needed redemption back to a state where God could fellowship with him, and he with God. God pursued His man, His people, and dealt with them and their sinful state according to a pattern. This was in the Old Testament.

Then comes Jesus! God sent His only Son to accomplish His plan for redemption of sinful man. When that was done, His Son had died. He soon rose from the dead and went away to be with His Father for a time, but told us "I'll be back." That was a long time ago.

So now we wait. We watch. He said He would be back, but speculation about this event is rampant. There are clues about how and when it's going to happen, but his best advice to us is "watch and pray".

So here we are. Watching. Then here comes this Messianic Jew in New York who is sitting around watching. When you watch long enough, you just might see something. Cahn saw a pattern, and he shared it with us. I'm glad he did. It makes sense to me. Now we get to watch, too.

Nell

I know. It's waaay simplistic. I left out a lot of the story. Sorry.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

I don't believe America was "founded by God" either. I have not seen those words in Cahn's work.

He said America was founded on Jesus ... didn't he? ... if I remember correctly ... early on in his message. Maybe he was just cracking a joke. But nobody got it. Including me.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

He said America was founded on Jesus ... didn't he? ... if I remember correctly ... early on in his message. Maybe he was just cracking a joke. But nobody got it. Including me.

I don't think so, but I can't say for sure. That would be inconsistent with his message. I'll let you know if I find anything like that.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

I don't think so, but I can't say for sure. That would be inconsistent with his message. I'll let you know if I find anything like that.

Nell

Quote from the transcript:

Originally Posted by Cahn

But there was another civilization that was likewise founded on God’s word, dedicated to His will, and consecrated to His purposes, from its very inception – America. Those who came to these shores four centuries ago to found a new civilization did so by dedicating it to God, committing it for His purposes and glory. America was to be a city on a hill, a civilization to which others would look. It was to be a holy commonwealth. And so they modeled it after Israel of the Bible. They brought forth its first governments in the name of Jesus and for the glory of God.

This is complete baloney. None of this is true. He cannot provide any proofs of this claim ... not without piling on more baloney.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Quote from the transcript:

This is complete baloney. None of this is true. He cannot provide any proofs of this claim ... not without piling on more baloney.

Well, there you have it. "They" brought forth the first government in the name of Jesus. I would like to see his references. Was that spoken or written?

I would like to read more before applying the baloney factor, but I honestly don't have a big problem with it. It may be overstated, but I don't know. The pattern is still in place.

Thanks for the info.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Well, there you have it. "They" brought forth the first government in the name of Jesus. I would like to see his references. Was that spoken or written?

I would like to read more before applying the baloney factor, but I honestly don't have a big problem with it. It may be overstated, but I don't know. The pattern is still in place.

Thanks for the info.

Nell

Good sis. I'm encouraged that you don't seem to have your wagon hooked up.

So what? We'll know by Oct. 1, 1915? What should we do until then?

Maybe we should spend thousands on Jim Bakker's survival kits. I understand he's back, after his jail time, and he's makin' loads of money again ... off of fear associated with the second coming.

Christian's don't ever learn ... seems ... fear sells.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good sis. I'm encouraged that you don't seem to have your wagon hooked up.

So what? We'll know by Oct. 1, 1915? What should we do until then?

Maybe we should spend thousands on Jim Bakker's survival kits. I understand he's back, after his jail time, and he's makin' loads of money again ... off of fear associated with the second coming.

Christian's don't ever learn ... seems ... fear sells.

We all know of the bloopers, but there have been several cases where the prophet was correct, in the case below the prophecy was from a vision and not deduced from scripture:

A boy prophet prophesied the future massacre of Armenian Christians in Turkey in 1915 years before it happened. There's a huge community of Armenians in LA that believed his prophecy and left before it happened. Those that stayed got killed.

https://hewhohasearslethimhear.wordp...and-fulfilled/

Originally Posted by From: The Happiest People on Earth. The long-awaited personal story of Demos Shakarian as told to John and Elizabeth Sherrill, U.S.A. 1975, pages 19-22

How God foretold to a boy in Kara Kala (Armenia) a time of unspeakable tragedy for the entire area

‘This person was known throughout the region as the ‘Boy Prophet’ even though at the time of the incident with the steer’s head the Boy Prophet was fifty-eight years old.

The man’s real name was Efim Gerasemovitch Klubniken, and he had a remarkable history. He was of Russian origin, his family being among the first Pentecostals to come across the border, settling permanently in Kara Kala. From earliest childhood Efim had shown a gift for prayer, frequently going on long fasts, praying around the clock.

As everybody in Kara Kala knew, when Efim was eleven years old he had heard the Lord calling him again to one of his prayer vigils. This time he persisted for seven days and nights, and during this time received a vision.

This in itself was not extraordinary. Indeed, as Grandfather had been accustomed to grumble, anyone who went that long without eating or sleeping was bound to start seeing things. But what Efim was able to do during those seven days was not so easy to explain.

Efim could neither read nor write. Yet, as he sat in the little stone cottage in Kara Kala, he saw before him a vision of charts and a message in a beautiful handwriting. Efim asked for pen and paper. And for seven days sitting at the rough plank-table where the family ate, he laboriously copied down the form and shape of letters and diagrams that passed before his eyes.

When he had finished, the manuscript was taken to people in the village who could read. It turned out that this illiterate child had written out in Russian characters a series of instructions and warnings. At some unspecified time in the future, the boy wrote, every Christian in Kara Kala would be in terrible danger. He foretold a time of unspeakable tragedy for the entire area, when hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children would be brutally murdered. The time would come, he warned, when everyone in the region must flee. They must go to a land across the sea. Although he had never seen a geography book, the Boy Prophet drew a map showing exactly where the fleeing Christians were to go. To the amazement of the adults, the body of water depicted so accurately in the drawing was not the nearby Black Sea, or the Caspian Sea, or even the farther-off Mediterranean, but the distant and unimaginable Atlantic Ocean! There was no doubt about it, nor about the identity of the land on the other side: the map plainly indicated the east coast of the United States of America.

But the refugees were not to settle down there, the prophecy continued. They were to continue traveling until they reached the west coast of the new land. There, the boy wrote, God would bless them and prosper them, and cause their seed to be a blessing to the nations. (…)

Well, many people in Kara Kala smiled at these romances of a little boy. Surely there must be some explanation of the ‘miraculous’ writing. Perhaps he had secretly taught himself to read and write, just in order to play this trick on the village.

Others however took to calling Efim the Boy Prophet and were not at all convinced that the message was not genuine. Every time news of fresh political troubles reached the tranquil hills around Ararat, they would get out the now-yellowed pages and read them again. Troubles between the Moslem Turks and the Christian Armenians did seem to be growing in intensity. In August, 1896 – four years before Grandfather butchered the blind steer – hadn’t a Turkish mob murdered more than six thousand Armenians on the streets of Constantinople?

But Constantinople was far away, and years had passed since the giving of the prophecy. True, prophecies in the Bible often came dozens, even hundreds of years before the event. But most people in Kara Kala, Grandfather among them, believed such genuine prophetic gifts had ceased with the completion of the Bible.

And then, a little after the turn of the century, Efim announced that the time was near for the fulfilment of the words he had written down nearly fifty years before. ‘We must flee to America. All who remain here will perish’.

Here and there in Kara Kala Pentecostal families packed up and left the holdings that had been their ancestral possessions time out of mind. Efim and his family were among the first to go. As each group of Pentecostals left Armenia, they were jeered by those who remained behind. Skeptical and disbelieving folk – including many Christians – refused to believe that God could issue pinpoint instructions for modern people in a modern age.

But the instructions proved correct. In 1914 a period of unimaginable horror arrived for Armenia. With remorseless efficiency the Turks began the bloody business of driving two-thirds of the population out into the Mesopotamian desert. Over a million men, women and children died in these death marches, including every inhabitant of Kara Kala. Another half a million were massacrated in their villages, in a pogrom that was later to provide Hitler his blueprint for the extermination of the Jews. ‘The world did not intervene when Turkey wiped out the Armenians’, he reminded his followers. ‘It will not intervene now’.

The few Armenians who managed to escape the besieged areas brought with them tales of great heroism. They reported that the Turks sometimes gave Christians an opportunity to deny their faith in exchange for their lives. The favorite procedure was to lock a group of Christians in a barn and set it afire: ‘If you are willing to accept Mohammed in place of Christ we’ll open the doors’. Time and again, the Christians chose to die, chanting hymns of praise as the flames engulfed them.

Those who had heeded the warning of the Boy Prophet and sought asylum in America, heard the news with dismay’.

If you got this far, rumor has it that the Armenian community in LA is on the move again...

http://www.futurerevealed.com/christ...n-prophecy.htm

1 Thess 5:20-21
Do not scoff at prophecies, but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

We all know of the bloopers, but there have been several cases where the prophet was correct, in the case below the prophecy was from a vision and not deduced from scripture:

A boy prophet prophesied the future massacre of Armenian Christians in Turkey in 1915 years before it happened. There's a huge community of Armenians in LA that believed his prophecy and left before it happened. Those that stayed got killed.

https://hewhohasearslethimhear.wordp...and-fulfilled/



If you got this far, rumor has it that the Armenian community in LA is on the move again...

http://www.futurerevealed.com/christ...n-prophecy.htm

1 Thess 5:20-21
Do not scoff at prophecies, but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good.

That's really out there Bearbear. Wish you were there to witness and confirm this wild story.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Quote from the transcript:

This is complete baloney. None of this is true. He cannot provide any proofs of this claim ... not without piling on more baloney.

Cahn in his prayer breakfast sermon is a master of prophetic imagination. I can't accept his characterization of American history. Too selective and factually incorrect. But his use of OT imagery to tap America's deepest fears is artistic genius. The way he calls Tom Daschle for his misappropriation of Isaiah 9:10 is brilliant. It reminds me of the Matthews' “His blood be on us and on our children.” except in this case we have the video tape https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukYiWd3T9sk The dramatic climax of the the sermon with the prayer, the band and the speaking in tongues and the hand waving, took me back forty years to my pentecostal days. Who knew that an inaugural prayer breakfast could be so exciting? Dave who proselytized me for Witness Lee's thing can testify how susceptible I am to this kind of stuff. Maybe Cahn will let me play in the band. This guy is the new Rock star of the American Taliban!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Cahn in his prayer breakfast sermon is a master of prophetic imagination. I can't accept his characterization of American history. Too selective and factually incorrect. But his use of OT imagery to tap America's deepest fears is artistic genius. The way he calls Tom Daschle for his misappropriation of Isaiah 9:10 is brilliant. It reminds me of the Matthews' “His blood be on us and on our children.” except in this case we have the video tape https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukYiWd3T9sk The dramatic climax of the the sermon with the prayer, the band and the speaking in tongues and the hand waving, took me back forty years to my pentecostal days. Who knew that an inaugural prayer breakfast could be so exciting? Dave who proselytized me for Witness Lee's thing can testify how susceptible I am to this kind of stuff. Maybe Cahn will let me play in the band. This guy is the new Rock star of the American Taliban!

Cahn makes me laugh. He says America has turned away from God. Meanwhile he's "brought God" to the capital, and has one of the biggest Messianic Churches "THE JERUSALEM CENTER - Hope of the World." Here in America, by the way. I repeat, here in America.

And I don't see the turning away from God anywhere. There's more churches here in Kentucky than there are gas stations and restaurants combined. And look at all the mega-churches.

Where's the turning away?

Fear not. Cahn is pulling our leg. But he's serious about merchandising and donations.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

Cahn makes me laugh. He says America has turned away from God. Meanwhile he's "brought God" to the capital, and has one of the biggest Messianic Churches "THE JERUSALEM CENTER - Hope of the World." Here in America, by the way. I repeat, here in America.

And I don't see the turning away from God anywhere. There's more churches here in Kentucky than there are gas stations and restaurants combined. And look at all the mega-churches.

Where's the turning away?

Fear not. Cahn is pulling our leg. But he's serious about merchandising and donations.

According to Jesus' seven letters to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3, it seems like God is concerned more with quality than quantity. I think the majority of churches in America can be likened to Laodicea, which is not a good thing.

Paul's description of what the last days are like is not too far removed from the type of folks you'd find in America's churches nowadays:

2 Timothy 3:1-5
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

Yet I think if judgment comes during our lives it would be a good thing, if it's the wakeup call we need to repent. Better to repent while we are alive than after we die when it's too late.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

According to Jesus' seven letters to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3, it seems like God is concerned more with quality than quantity. I think the majority of churches in America can be likened to Laodicea, which is not a good thing.

Paul's description of what the last days are like is not too far removed from the type of folks you'd find in America's churches nowadays:

2 Timothy 3:1-5
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

Yet I think if judgment comes during our lives it would be a good thing, if it's the wakeup call we need to repent. Better to repent while we are alive than after we die when it's too late.

It takes a huge imaginative leap to suppose that John of Patmos was talking about churches in America or that Isaiah was talking about the twin towers in New York City or that Paul was thinking about the modern era when he referred to "perilous times." Those that make the leap recognize on some level that cold objectivity lacks the moral force of powerful bible imagery. And Cahn is a master at appropriating Bible imagery to move people in service of his ideological agenda. I appreciate his prophetic imagination. I wonder if he himself believes that the images in his head have the weight of absoluteness. Be that as it may, in Cahn's case I think true "repentance" would entail not only buying into his onstage histrionics but getting in line with his right-wing ideology. Don't you think?

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

Cahn's putative non-fiction book is The Mystery of the Shemitah: The 3,000-Year-Old Mystery That Holds the Secret of America's Future, the World's Future, and Your Future!.
It was hyped thus:

"The book you can't afford NOT to read.
It is already affecting your life…
And it WILL affect your future!"

It virtually screams to be read!!! I thought calm was the new happy.

Originally Posted by awareness

Fear not. Cahn is pulling our leg. But he's serious about merchandising and donations.

I think I remember when this thread was first broached, and I got somewhat curious and was reading an interview with Cahn and some radio host. The radio guy asked him about the breathless claims on the dust jacket of "The Harbinger".

Cahn said, "Nah, that was the publisher. Wasn't my choice of words". Which sounded to me like WL saying about LSM, "It was a business decision"... deniability and separation... "Wasn't me -- that was the publishing house". The moral is, never trust them when they merge their message, their ministry, and their merchandizing.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

It takes a huge imaginative leap to suppose that John of Patmos was talking about churches in America or that Isaiah was talking about the twin towers in New York City or that Paul was thinking about the modern era when he referred to "perilous times." Those that make the leap recognize on some level that cold objectivity lacks the moral force of powerful bible imagery. And Cahn is a master at appropriating Bible imagery to move people in service of his ideological agenda. I appreciate his prophetic imagination. I wonder if he himself believes that the images in his head have the weight of absoluteness. Be that as it may, in Cahn's case I think true "repentance" would entail not only buying into his onstage histrionics but getting in line with his right-wing ideology. Don't you think?

What he said. Repent and join the Tea Party.

Ha

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

I think I remember when this thread was first broached, and I got somewhat curious and was reading an interview with Cahn and some radio host. The radio guy asked him about the breathless claims on the dust jacket of "The Harbinger".

Cahn said, "Nah, that was the publisher. Wasn't my choice of words". Which sounded to me like WL saying about LSM, "It was a business decision"... deniability and separation... "Wasn't me -- that was the publishing house". The moral is, never trust them when they merge their message, their ministry, and their merchandizing.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I prefer: "A fool and his money are soon parted."

[Dancing]

Originally Posted by zeek

It takes a huge imaginative leap to suppose that John of Patmos was talking about churches in America or that Isaiah was talking about the twin towers in New York City or that Paul was thinking about the modern era when he referred to "perilous times."

Irrelevant. True principles are always true regardless of time or place. God's principles are illustrated in His Word. They are dependable to the end.

The principles which motivated Paul to write 2 Timothy 3 were also alive and well in Genesis as they were in Paul's time and will be at the times of Revelation.

Originally Posted by zeek

Those that make the leap recognize on some level that cold objectivity lacks the moral force of powerful bible imagery. And Cahn is a master at appropriating Bible imagery to move people in service of his ideological agenda.

God's the real master at appropriating imagery to move people. That is His style when people don't just receive what He says. Re: The Prophets

Originally Posted by zeek

Be that as it may, in Cahn's case I think true "repentance" would entail not only buying into his onstage histrionics but getting in line with his right-wing ideology. Don't you think?

Maybe Cahn is referring to the simplest and truest meaning of repentance. Maybe he's sincere. Maybe his words are true to God's.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dancing

True principles are always true regardless of time or place. God's principles are illustrated in His Word. They are dependable to the end.

And that's why Christopher Columbus would bash the babies of Indians against the rocks that wouldn't bring him gold to fill his big bellied ships with. Cuz he had God's Word to support him:

Psa 137:9 Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

"True principles are always true."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And that's why Christopher Columbus would bash the babies of Indians against the rocks that wouldn't bring him gold to fill his big bellied ships with. Cuz he had God's Word to support him:

Psa 137:9 Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

"True principles are always true."

Whoa! So you are saying that C.C. Thought he had landed in Babylon?

[Dancing]

Originally Posted by awareness

And that's why Christopher Columbus would bash the babies of Indians against the rocks that wouldn't bring him gold to fill his big bellied ships with. Cuz he had God's Word to support him:

Psa 137:9 Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

"True principles are always true."

Harold, it is obvious you have been greatly hurt and affected by WL and/or the LCs. We all sympathize with you. I’ve told you a little about my story too. I feel your pain. And there are still lies and denials that are perpetrated by ones in leadership. It is an evil, it is a shame, but it is NOT a blot on God.

Okay, I know you’re thinking that this has nothing to do with your last reply. But in truth it does. Because only the Lord can make what “the enemy meant for evil to work out for good”. God cause ALL THINGS to work together for GOOD to those who LOVE HIM, to those who are called according to His purpose. I know that you once thought you were called according to WL’s version. BUT, let me ask you this: Were you ever called by God Himself? Did you hear His sweet, precious, and awe inspiring voice? a voice you couldn’t live without? a voice you couldn’t ignore, didn’t want to ignore...a voice whose perfectness in love captured your heart while simultaneously whose righteousness rang reverberations of the knowledge of your own filth and unrighteousness, yet who impressed daily more deeply His promise of love and faithfulness to the end? Did you ever receive straight from His mouth His promises? Do you daily know His confirmations of love?

If your answer is not a resounding “YES!” than you don’t have the equipment to live a true life, to go forward past the obstacles, the stumbling blocks the enemy daily puts before us. It is evident you have been “tripped up”. Haven’t we all! But is He God or not!? To you, I mean. He has to be TO YOU. He is ready to be. But are you ready to receive Him? Will you forgive those who’ve hurt you? He forgave US, His enemies. He even forgave those who will never want His forgiveness. Next, are you ready to receive Him in a new way? Are you willing to forgive your mother for her error and receive God according to truth. Will you ask Him to reveal Himself to you in a new way? Will you ask Him to wash you of all you’ve known and experienced and make you His little child? He loves you so dearly, Harold, but He needs your permission. He needs you to open the door to Him.

He IS severe. There is no doubt. But His severity is more than matched by His love. He’s proven it. Don’t doubt it. So, where we lack understanding or see apparent contradictions to that love we must remember WE are the creation; HE is the Creator. We must be willing to be small, even nothing, and receive His love. Why pick out that verse (psalm 137:9)? Why not rather read the multiplied proof texts of His love? And submit your questions to Him but don’t doubt His love. Pray for faith. Pray for mercy. Mercy IS His calling card. He only wants you to receive it from Him. Without His mercy we can’t even SEE past our nose, let alone go forward.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dancing

Why pick out that verse (psalm 137:9)? Why not rather read the multiplied proof texts of His love?

I think that Psalm 137:9 is a good verse. The demons cried out with fear when Jesus walked in the room. "Ah! What do we have to do with You, Jesus, Nazaren?!? Have you come to destroy us before our time?"

The loving God is pretty tough on demons. I don't see why that should make anyone uncomfortable, except the demons.

[OBW]

Principles are always true. Principles are like saying that God is righteous and that he always demands righteousness. God demands our worship and is enraged when we turn to other gods.

But a specific prophecy concerning a return to God, or of what will happen when they fail to do so is not a principle. It is a specific action consistent with a principle. This whole line of reasoning is based upon confusing a specific action that is consistent with a principle with being the principle itself.

Note that from the time the children of Israel entered the land of Canaan, until the exile to Babylon, they failed over and over. And each time they fell into a different kind of problem with the nations around them. And each time, when they finally began to cry out to God, he rescued them. But the last time, when they went to Babylon, it was 70 years. No amount of crying and begging would change it.

Today, there is no equivalent of Israel in the world. The US is not it. Neither any other country. I am not denying that God still has dealings with the Jews and therefore with modern-day Israel. But the US is not the Christian equivalent of Israel. When we as Christians fail, we have to deal with God. It is not a national thing. It is a Christian thing which is both personal and corporate. But the corporate is the church, not the nation. Any parallel between promises of blessing in the OT and anything in this era would be relative to the church, not to the nation.

I've watched a favorite aunt get thoroughly engulfed in this kind of thinking. Even reading the book written by Cahn. And the result is the creation of a somewhat bitter person who is so concerned about politics rather than Christ. I am not suggesting that she has abandoned faith. Far from it. But her spiritual energies have become depleted on worrying about every theory about the evils of government and the "liberals." It is more important to rant about how corporate influence is running aspects of government and seek out various forms of anti-Christs than to be a positive testimony through our lives of love and service to/for our neighbor.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dancing

Harold, it is obvious you have been greatly hurt and affected by WL and/or the LCs. We all sympathize with you. I’ve told you a little about my story too. I feel your pain. And there are still lies and denials that are perpetrated by ones in leadership. It is an evil, it is a shame, but it is NOT a blot on God.

Okay, I know you’re thinking that this has nothing to do with your last reply. But in truth it does. Because only the Lord can make what “the enemy meant for evil to work out for good”. God cause ALL THINGS to work together for GOOD to those who LOVE HIM, to those who are called according to His purpose. I know that you once thought you were called according to WL’s version. BUT, let me ask you this: Were you ever called by God Himself? Did you hear His sweet, precious, and awe inspiring voice? a voice you couldn’t live without? a voice you couldn’t ignore, didn’t want to ignore...a voice whose perfectness in love captured your heart while simultaneously whose righteousness rang reverberations of the knowledge of your own filth and unrighteousness, yet who impressed daily more deeply His promise of love and faithfulness to the end? Did you ever receive straight from His mouth His promises? Do you daily know His confirmations of love?

If your answer is not a resounding “YES!” than you don’t have the equipment to live a true life, to go forward past the obstacles, the stumbling blocks the enemy daily puts before us. It is evident you have been “tripped up”. Haven’t we all! But is He God or not!? To you, I mean. He has to be TO YOU. He is ready to be. But are you ready to receive Him? Will you forgive those who’ve hurt you? He forgave US, His enemies. He even forgave those who will never want His forgiveness. Next, are you ready to receive Him in a new way? Are you willing to forgive your mother for her error and receive God according to truth. Will you ask Him to reveal Himself to you in a new way? Will you ask Him to wash you of all you’ve known and experienced and make you His little child? He loves you so dearly, Harold, but He needs your permission. He needs you to open the door to Him.

He IS severe. There is no doubt. But His severity is more than matched by His love. He’s proven it. Don’t doubt it. So, where we lack understanding or see apparent contradictions to that love we must remember WE are the creation; HE is the Creator. We must be willing to be small, even nothing, and receive His love. Why pick out that verse (psalm 137:9)? Why not rather read the multiplied proof texts of His love? And submit your questions to Him but don’t doubt His love. Pray for faith. Pray for mercy. Mercy IS His calling card. He only wants you to receive it from Him. Without His mercy we can’t even SEE past our nose, let alone go forward.

You make me miss a good old fashion altar call in my Southern Baptist days. Almost as much as the fire and brimstone sermons.

Good one Dancing. That was a good sermon. And loving. Glad to see you are getting away from the law and going after love and grace. Love and grace bears better fruit towards those we are close with.

With grace and love you can now laugh at the fact that our Bible says:

"Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

And with grace and love you can also laugh at the law in the Bible.

[Dancing]

Originally Posted by OBW

Principles are always true. Principles are like saying that God is righteous and that he always demands righteousness. God demands our worship and is enraged when we turn to other gods.

But a specific prophecy concerning a return to God, or of what will happen when they fail to do so is not a principle. It is a specific action consistent with a principle. This whole line of reasoning is based upon confusing a specific action that is consistent with a principle with being the principle itself.

Note that from the time the children of Israel entered the land of Canaan, until the exile to Babylon, they failed over and over. And each time they fell into a different kind of problem with the nations around them. And each time, when they finally began to cry out to God, he rescued them. But the last time, when they went to Babylon, it was 70 years. No amount of crying and begging would change it.

Today, there is no equivalent of Israel in the world. The US is not it. Neither any other country. I am not denying that God still has dealings with the Jews and therefore with modern-day Israel. But the US is not the Christian equivalent of Israel. When we as Christians fail, we have to deal with God. It is not a national thing. It is a Christian thing which is both personal and corporate. But the corporate is the church, not the nation. Any parallel between promises of blessing in the OT and anything in this era would be relative to the church, not to the nation.

I've watched a favorite aunt get thoroughly engulfed in this kind of thinking. Even reading the book written by Cahn. And the result is the creation of a somewhat bitter person who is so concerned about politics rather than Christ. I am not suggesting that she has abandoned faith. Far from it. But her spiritual energies have become depleted on worrying about every theory about the evils of government and the "liberals." It is more important to rant about how corporate influence is running aspects of government and seek out various forms of anti-Christs than to be a positive testimony through our lives of love and service to/for our neighbor.

I only have time to comment on what is bolded.

Israel IS Israel (sounds moronic). At LEAST there IS a remnant there.

The corporate ultimately includes BOTH. It is Israel first where the scripture is speaking of Israel. How God operates with Israel reveals principles on how He operates with His church.

There is both individual and corporate responsibility. Ie., the early church in Jerusalem consisted of mostly Jews. Though they WERE the church they were also true Israel. BUT Israel as a nation LED BY ITS LEADERS rejected their Messiah and therefore were judged in 70 A.D. As Jesus said, they had not known the time of their visitation. The Jewish believers (True israel at that time) were dispersed around the world. Israel as a nation ceased until 1948. It was re-born. Today, in that land, there also resides TRUE Israel, Jewish believers in their Yeshua. Israel is Israel. God will weed out the tares and save the remnant (true Israel) just as He does amongst the Gentile church. The Gentile church is learning to love his "older brother" and be one. Through Gentile church's loving provocation all Israel will be saved and will cry out, "Baruch HaBa BaShem ADONAI!", Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the LORD! And the LORD will come!

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dancing

Irrelevant. True principles are always true regardless of time or place. God's principles are illustrated in His Word. They are dependable to the end.

OK.

The principles which motivated Paul to write 2 Timothy 3 were also alive and well in Genesis as they were in Paul's time and will be at the times of Revelation.

But wait, 2 Timothy 3 says "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come..." Doesn't that mean that the teaching applies only during the last days and therefore is not always true?

God's the real master at appropriating imagery to move people. That is His style when people don't just receive what He says. Re: The Prophets

In so far as God speaks in nature that is true. I have seen moving sunsets that took my breath away. And in an analogical sense God can use people to create moving imagery. OK

Maybe Cahn is referring to the simplest and truest meaning of repentance. Maybe he's sincere. Maybe his words are true to God's.

I didn't mean to suggest that Cahn wasn't sincere. He seemed to be. I'm just saying that his sermon implied a particular political ideology. Apparently he combines Christian fundamentalism with a kind orthodox Jewish fundamentalism and you find that appealing. It's a free country. Go for it, I say. That position seems to entail judging everybody that doesn't take the same route. Which means being in conflict with everybody who is not on the same path. But, hey, you're on God's chosen path so it's worth it right?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Dancing

How God operates with Israel reveals principles on how He operates with His church.

On this we can agree — at least broadly. But it is just that — principles. And the precise "whats" and "hows" of his dealings with the church are, in principle, similar.

But they are not identical. How he dealt with Israel had to do with obedience coupled with a continuous need to sacrifice more animals. But there are no more sacrifices. Yet the requirement for obedience remains.

Similarities, but not in all things.

The thrust of this thread is that a secular nation has a need to "return to God." The problem is that the nation does not have such a position to which it can return. The acts of a "few good men" (although that may be about all that can be said about some of them) does not turn this secular nation into modern Israel. It does not make every shoe-horned interpretation of modern events into the imagery of an OT prophecy proof that God is specially blessing this nation.

And for those who point to the fact that there has been such prosperity, note that we are not the only prosperous nation on the earth, and that some of them have minimal Christian presence relative to the US. And the presence that they do have is what so many of the people who rush after these modern prophecies would label as "worldly," "marginal," or "poor."

When I say that the events are "shoe-horned," take as an example the myth about the tree that saved the church. Of all the items on the property, including the tree and the church itself, among the only things that were potentially in line with harsh thrust of the falling towers would have been the tree. The building was not in the line of the assault of winds. It was in the lateral outflow of dust and small debris. There is the possibility that the winds in these lateral outflows could have contained enough force with debris to possibly break some glass. But there was not enough to really damage any building. With or without the fallen sycamore.

That is the reason that any reference to the sycamore is something that the church claims but no one has enough need to comment on it because it is just not relevant. The tree did not protect the church. Two or three other buildings did. The only claims of special protection because of the tree come from those who need it to be so to sell their stories.

But before I take this any further, why is it that much worse governments in countries that make no acknowledgement of God in other than very small scale are not treated in a worse manner than the US? Why is there a prophecy against one of the more just kingdoms of the world of the entire history of the world?

Prophecies went out against the enemies of Israel. And against the apostasy of Israel. But not against the countries of the earth that had no idea what was even going on in the middle east in those days. Or that were coming to the aid of Israel. (And at this point in time, no matter how poor you consider the aid of the US, it is just about all that there is.)

Looks way too much like revisionist history.

I also noted in some of the stuff surrounding the myths of the sycamore as either the 6th or 7th warning, that there was talk of the Jews that did not return to Jerusalem, but stayed in Babylon or moved elsewhere, as something akin to morally bankrupt. In other words, another form of remnant theology. Seems like most of us just escaped from one of those. Why rush to join another.

The account in the Bible actually seems to be different. For example, Nehemiah was one of those who stayed. And according to the account, he was scheduled to return to Babylon when his task was over. Do you really see God using such a person if staying in Babylon was such a spiritual bankrupt position?

[Nell]

Please provide your source in Cahn's writings, or anyone else for that matter, for the statement "the US was the equivalent to Israel in the world".

In the Old Testament, God told his people precisely what he expected from them, and what they could expect from him in return. Blessing if they were obedient; judgment if they fell away to worship other gods. This blessing included his protection and other things. If Israel rebelled, or refused to comply with the requirements for God's blessing to remain, he also told them what would happen.

Cahn noticed a PATTERN in the way God dealt with his people and he wrote about it. Specifically, he noticed that this same PATTERN appearing in the US today. Does noticing a "pattern" in the US equate to "equivalence with Israel"? I don't think so. So please, give us the book, page, etc., where Cahn, or anyone else, made this leap.

Futher, Cahn noticed the PATTERN because he lives in the US. Is the pattern appearing in other countries in this world? Maybe. If the pattern fits... . Has anyone noticed the pattern in other countries? I don't know. If they have, they have not made it widely public as Cahn did.

In addition, are "principles" always true? No. The Bible is always true.

Local Church leadership "principled" us to death promoting such "principles" over the word of God. Mens' interpretation of the Bible may become their "principles". Specifically, I heard an "elder" say "In principle we were right" which he was applying to a situation in which, in fact, they were WRONG. He knew it. Yet, he "stuck to his 'principles'".

If you can back up your "principles" with God's word, then don't say it's a "principle". Say it's God's Word, and back THAT up with scripture references.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Please provide your source in Cahn's writings, or anyone else for that matter, for the statement "the US was the equivalent to Israel in the world".

I'll do you one better. Here's the written transcript, for searching, cutting, and pasting, to make points:


THE FOLLOWING IS THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE KEY NOTE ADDRESS JONATHAN GAVE AT THE PRESIDENTIAL INAUGURAL PRAYER BREAKFAST - ‘MESSAGE
February 9, 2013 at 5:44pm
THE MESSAGE
TO AMERICA
JONATHAN CAHN
jdc©2013
THE PRESIDENTIAL INAUGURAL
PRAYER BREAKFAST

KEYNOTE ADDRESS:
January 21, 2013

Members of the Presidential Inaugural Prayer Breakfast Committee, Senators, Members of Congress, Governors and government representatives, Ambassadors and delegates from other nations, ministers and people of God, friends, and media

We are gathered here in Washington DC, America’s capital city, on January 21, 2013, the morning of the Presidential Inauguration, with one agenda and one purpose, to come before the Lord and in His presence to seek His face and pray for His blessing, His will, and His purposes to be accomplished for this nation, for its government, for its leaders, for its president, and for its people. And it is fitting that we do this on this day which more than any other represents the future of our nations. We are here to inaugurate God’s own purposes.

We’ve come here from every part of this land and from every background and persuasion to stand before the Almighty, Who transcends politics, movements, and men, and before whom kings and kingdoms rise and fall. Presidents change, political parties come, from ages past, and go, and nation’s ascend and descend, but we come before Him who changes not but who remains the same yesterday, today, and forever. We come before Him, before whom men and women, kings and prophets, peoples and nations have come to seek His face in troubled times. We come to pray for America.

But how do we do that? How do we pray for America? Do we pray for riches, for power, for the success of our national agendas? The Scripture tells us that God hears the prayers of His people. But that we must pray according to His will. If a man has a terminal disease, we don’t pray for an increase in wealth, we pray for healing. And if a city lies in danger of destruction, we don’t speak flowery words, we sound the alarm. We pray for blessing. But true blessing only comes in the will of God. So we must pray according to that will. And we must not be afraid to speak the truth. We must give voice what must be spoken. We must sound the alarm that must be sounded. We must address what must be addressed. And so this message will not be politically correct, nor will it be political. It will be biblical. It will be true. And wherever it falls, so be it. I will not hold back. And if I offend you, I apologize but I cannot apologize for offending you. Without truth, there is no love. On a day that so embodies the future course of our nation, it is critical that we must both pray and speak what is true.

In ancient times, there was a nation known as the kingdom of Israel. It had been founded on God’s word, dedicated to His will, and consecrated to His purposes. And God blessed it with prosperity, power, security, peace, and a place at the head of nations. But the people of Israel made a fatal mistake, in the midst of their blessings, they turned away from God. They began to remove Him from their lives. Step by step they ruled Him out of their culture, out of their government, out of their economy, out of their public square, out of the instruction and lives of their children, they ruled Him out of the kingdom. They would still at times invoke His name but it was increasingly hollow and meaningless. They had made themselves strangers to the God of their fathers and their foundation.

And as God was driven from their lives, they brought in foreign gods and idols to replace Him, gods of sensuality, materialism, violence, idols of wealth, carnality, and sexual promiscuity. They abandoned the ways of God, the laws of God, the standards of God for immorality. As the prophets cried out, they now called evil,’good,’ and good, ‘evil.’ What they once knew to be immoral, they now celebrated, and what they once knew to be right, they now warred against. It was a culture turned in upon itself, a civilization at war against the very foundation on which it had been established. And the righteous, who simply remained true to what they had once all known to be true, were now vilified, marginalized, mocked, labeled ‘intolerant,’ increasingly banned from the public square, and, ultimately, persecuted. The nation’s culture grew increasingly vulgar, godless, and darkened. They now defiled, ridiculed, and blasphemed the name of God. It was as if a spiritual amnesia had overtaken the kingdom, as if they had never known God or His ways. And they descended into the darkest sins of the nations which surrounded them. They offered up their children as sacrifices to the gods, on the altars and fires of Baal and Molech. And they now stood under the shadow of judgment and in danger of destruction.

And God called out to them, to return, to come back, to be saved from destruction. He sent to them seers and prophets to wake them up, to call them back. But they wouldn’t listen. They mocked the prophets and persecuted them. And they hardened their hearts. And finally something happened that brought them into the first stage of judgment.

But there was another civilization that was likewise founded on God’s word, dedicated to His will, and consecrated to His purposes, from its very inception – America. Those who came to these shores four centuries ago to found a new civilization did so by dedicating it to God, committing it for His purposes and glory. America was to be a city on a hill, a civilization to which others would look. It was to be a holy commonwealth. And so they modeled it after Israel of the Bible. They brought forth its first governments in the name of Jesus and for the glory of God. They established its first school system for the purpose of teaching the Word of God. And they foretold that inasmuch as America would follow in the ways of God, that God would bless it, that it would become the most powerful, the most prosperous, the most blessed nation on earth, the head of nations. And it would all come true.

America would become the most blessed nation on earth, a refuge for the world’s exiles, a light for the world’s oppressed, a beacon against the dark forces of tyranny which threatened to engulf the world. America was blessed with prosperity, power, security, peace, and a place at the head of nations. America was blessed as no nation in history had ever been blessed.

But something happened to the city on the hill. As the people of ancient Israel, in the midst of their blessings, committed a fatal error, so have we. We too have, as a nation, turned from God. We, too, have removed Him from our lives. Step by step, we, too, have ruled Him out of our culture, out of our government, out of our economy, out of our public square, out of the instruction and lives of our children, we, too have made God a stranger. And though we still at times invoke His name, it rings increasingly hollow and meaningless. We have made ourselves strangers to the God of our fathers.

And as we have driven God from our national life, we have brought in other gods and idols to replace him, gods of sensuality, materialism, violence, idols of wealth, carnality, and sexual promiscuity. And as did Israel, so, we too have abandoned ways of God, the laws of God, and the standards of God, for immorality. The nation that was established to bring the Word and light of God to the world, now fills the earth with pornography. We too now call evil ‘good,’ and good, ‘evil.’ And what we once knew to be immoral, we now celebrate, and what we once knew to be right, we now war against. American culture has become turned in upon itself, a civilization at war against the very foundation on which it has been established. And those, who simply remain true to what had always been known as true, are now vilified, marginalized, mocked, labeled ‘intolerant,’ and increasingly banned from the public square, and, ultimately, persecuted.

We have now reached the point, this day, that a minister was driven out of the public square, barred from praying at the inaugural service for the simple reason that years ago he preached a sermon simply saying what the Bible has always clearly said regarding sin. It is a new America in which one can be banned from the public square simply for believing the Bible, where profanity it treated as holy and the Holy as profane, a new America where the Bible is treated as contraband and nativity scenes are seen as dangerous.

Our culture has grown increasingly vulgar, godless, and darkened. We too now defile, ridicule, and blaspheme the name of God. It wasn’t that long ago that American television closed its broadcasting days with sermons. Now our televisions and computers screens are filled with word and images once unimaginable and God and Jesus have now become objects of comedy and mockery. It’s as if a spiritual amnesia has overtaken the land. The Lord asked Israel, “Can a nation forget its God?” And yet Israel forgot. And now we too have forgotten. America too has forgotten her God.
And we too, as a nation, have partaken in the darkest of sins. Tomorrow is also a milestone of history. Tomorrow marks the fortieth anniversary of the day that America legalized the killing of its unborn children. Israel offered up thousands of its children. America has offered up millions. Fifty million souls are not here today. Fifty million people will not be here, watching or cheering at the inauguration. They’re silent, for their lives were legislated out of existence, even from this city. And in order to hide the magnitude of our moral descent, we redefine words and change their meanings on this and other sins. And yet a thousand apostate ministers swearing on a thousand Bibles will not change a jot or tittle of God’s word. Though silent, they cry out in bearing witness to the darkest of our sins. And God hears them. And as He spoke through the ancient prophets to Israel, so His words now echo down to us, “When you lift up your hands to be in prayer I will not listen. For your hands are covered with blood.”

The city on the hill has grown dark. Its lamp has grown dim. Its glory is fading. For God is not mocked. No nation can war against the very source of its blessings and expect those blessings to remain. And as it was with ancient Israel, the city on the hill now stands under the shadow of judgment.

__________________

How does judgment come to a nation? After defying all of God’s calls and warnings, the nation of Israel would experienced something unprecedented. It was the opening stage of judgment. God removed one of Israel’s blessings. Years before the nation’s destruction, He allowed its hedge of protection to be lifted. He allowed an enemy to make a strike into the land. It was a wake-up call to avert national destruction. Nothing else would reach them. The strike was limited and temporary. The nation was now given a period of time to turn back to God or enter into judgment.

This first opening biblical sign of national warning and judgment is this initial removal of the nation’s hedge of protection. So it came to pass in America on September 11, 2001. It was on that day that we witnessed the nation’s hedge of protection removed. An enemy was allowed to make a strike on the land. As with Israel, the strike was limited and temporary. It was a wake-up call. And for a short-time it looked as if America would wake up. It looked as if we were on the verge of a national revival. People flocked to churches and spoke of God. And then, a few weeks later, it was all over. There was no revival. There was no change of course. America continued down it course of spiritual departure from God but did so now with even more fervor. Eleven years after 9/11, the nation stands not closer to God, but much farther away.

As I saw the smoke rising out of New York City that day, and then as I stood at the corner of Ground Zero, a revelation began coming to me. The revelation would take the form of a book called The Harbinger. The Harbinger was release last year and from the first week of its release it’s become a national best seller, spreading across the nation and even into the Halls of Congress.
The revelation of The Harbinger is this: There exists an ancient mystery that lies behind everything from 9/11 to the collapse of the American economy - A mystery so precise that it actually reveals the actions of American leaders before they take them, the exact words of American leaders, before they speak them., a mystery so exact that it gives the dates, even the hours of some of the most dramatic days in recent history. In the last days of ancient Israel, before its destruction, nine harbingers, nine prophetic signs of national judgment, appeared in the land. Those same nine harbingers are now reappearing on American soil. Some have appeared in New York City. Some have appeared in Washington, DC. Some have involved the highest leaders of the land, even the president of the United States and they touch every realm, the political, the economic, the cultural, the spiritual, and affect every American and every American’s future.

The harbingers are revealed through an ancient Scripture, the vow that Israel made after that first strike of warning. It appears as Isaiah 9:10. Instead of repentance, they responded to the warning with defiance. They said this: “The bricks have fallen. BUT we will rebuild with hewn stone. The sycamores have been cut down, BUT we will plant cedars in their place.” What they were saying was this: “God, you won’t humble us, you won’t cause us to return. We will continue on our course. We will continue to abandon your ways. We will defy you and even more than before. By our own efforts, we will rebuild and come back stronger than before.

This vow of defiance would seal their fate and usher in their destruction. And it’s the key to nine harbinger of judgment. We don’t have the time to even begin to open up the mysteries of the harbingers except to say that they are all manifesting now to America, and to touch on just a few.

The Fifth Harbinger, the Stone of Judgment. For this to manifest, a particular kind of stone must be chiseled out of mountain rock and placed on the ground of destruction, where the strike occurred. Three years after 9/11, the Stone of Judgment appeared and was lowered onto the pavement of Ground Zero where a ceremony took place, with American leaders pronouncing vows of defiance over the stone.

The Sixth Harbinger, the Sign of the Sycamore, a biblical warning of national judgment. For this to manifest, a sycamore must be struck down at the ground of destruction. In the last moments of 9/11, as the last tower came crashing to the ground, it sent forth a shock wave and a beam that strikes an object. The object was a tree. The tree was a sycamore. The Biblical sign of national judgment - the sycamore was fallen.

The Seventh Harbinger called in Hebrew – the Erez. This sign of judgment appeared in the sky at the corner of Ground Zero two years after the calamity.

The ninth harbinger, the vow of judgment itself, the vow of bricks and sycamores, as recorded in Isaiah 9:10. It very utterance in the last days of ancient Israel, would lead the nation to destruction. For this harbinger to manifest, an American leader would have to proclaim the vow of judgment from the capitol city, and it would have to be linked to the attack, to 9/11. If you see this happen, know that it is a stunningly clear sign that your nation is under judgment.

On the day after 9/11, the United States Congress gathered on Capitol Hill, the same place where the inauguration will happen, to give America’s response to the calamity – just as ancient Israel had presented its response to its calamity in Isaiah 9:10. The man appointed to speak for the nation was the Senate Majority, Tom Daschle. He makes his way to the podium and presents the nation’s response. At the end of his speech, the words of the ancient vow that brings national judgment come forth from his mouth. He says this: “there is a passage in the Bible, from Isaiah, that I think speaks to all of us at times like this. “The bricks have fallen down, but we will rebuild with dressed stone…” He then speaks of the tree that is struck down. He speaks it without even realizing there is an actual tree that was struck down and just discovered that day. He speaks of the stone of judgment that is to be placed Ground Zero, which will come to pass three years after he declares it. He has no idea what he’s doing, but the vow of judgment is pronounced. Israel’s fatal vow becomes America’s and is recorded in the Annals of Congress.
_______________
And it is ominous. It will set the nation’s course. It will lead to the next national shaking, a shaking that won’t involve buildings, but the implosion of American power itself, the collapse of the American economy, a collapse that still affects everything we do. In The Harbinger it is called the Second Shaking. And behind this second shaking, this economic implosion, likes a stream of still more ancient mysteries. We don’t have the time to speak of these except to mention this one mind boggling reality.

There was a day given in the Bible, called on the Hebrew calendar, the 29th day of Elul. Once, every seven years, on that date, Elul 29, the nation’s financial accounts would be wiped away, all accounts of credit and debt, wiped away. It was originally meant to be a blessing, but as Israel turned away from God, it became part of a judgment, a sign for a nation that had driven God out of its life, and pursued idols of wealth, a sign that strikes that nations financial realm.

The peak of the collapse of the American economy took place at the end of September 2008. On that day the Stock Market crashed 777 points. It was the greatest crash in Wall Street and American history. When did it happen? The greatest collapse in American history took place on the 29th day of Elul, the exact day given in the Bible to strike a nation’s financial realm and wiped out its financial accounts, the sign given to a nation under judgment.

But Elul 29 is part of a seven year mystery. What happens if we go back seven years from that greatest crash in American history? It takes us to September 2001, the month of 9/11. But something else happened that month – the other greatest Stock Market crash in American history up to that date. And when did that take place? The other greatest Stock Market crash in American history took place on the exact same Biblical day, the day appointed to wipe away a nation’s financial accounts – the 29th day of Elul. The two greatest crashes in American history up to those days – both took place on the exact same biblical day, on the one day appointed to strike a nation’s financial realm, a sign to a nation that has driven God out of its life. And as according to the ancient mystery they each took place exactly seven biblical years apart to the exact day, and the exact hours. And there’s a prophetic mystery here, a prophetic warning, that if America does not return to God, that American prosperity and the American age itself will come to an end.
_________________
Since The Harbinger was released, that which was foreshadowed within its pages, is actually coming true. The harbingers and mysteries haven’t’ stopped, they’ve continued to manifest. In fact one of them took place this year and involved the president who is about to be inaugurated into office. And one of the mysteries in The Harbinger, something called The Mystery Ground, actually involves this day, the inauguration, or rather the first inauguration of which this day is a continuation.

It was the day that America as we know it came into existence, April 30, 1789. It was the day the nation’s first president was sworn into office, the inauguration of George Washington. Washington placed his hand on the Bible and then gave the first ever presidential address. And in that speech, on America’s first day as a fully-formed nation, is embedded a prophetic warning. He said this:

the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation
on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which
Heaven itself has ordained

What was he saying? He was saying this: America’s blessing are based its relationship with God. If America ever disregards or forgets or turns away from the eternal rules of order and right, the laws, the precepts, the standards, and the ways of God, if America ever departs from these, then the blessings of God will be withdrawn from the land. This is the prophetic warning embedded in our national foundation. And it is coming true in our day. We are now witnessing America disregarding the eternal rules of order and right which God has ordained. And the warning is, that if we do so, then the smiles of Heaven, the blessings of God will be withdrawn.

When judgment came to Israel, the destruction returned to the same ground where the nation had been dedicated to God, the Temple Mount. The calamity returns to the nation’s ground of consecration.

After Washington gave that prophetic warning, he and the nation’s first Senate and House of Representatives, all proceeded on foot from Federal Hall, the place of the inauguration, to a site especially chosen for the nation’s first government to pray and dedicate America’s future to God. And that’s what they did on that first inauguration on America’s first day as a formed nation – they prayed and committed the nation’s future to God. That was the nation’s consecration ground.

If we can find out where that ground is, we will have a mystery. Where did it take place? It happened in the nation’s capital. But the capital then was not Washington, D.C. It was New York City. Where? The place where they dedicated America to God on its first day as a nation, America’s consecration ground.. is .. Ground Zero. America was dedicated to God at Ground Zero. The ancient mystery, the calamity returns to the nations ground of consecration.

And it was on that ground that the harbingers appeared. It was in that soil of America’s consecration that the sycamore grew and was struck down. And on 9/11 a shock wave went forth from Ground Zero and struck an object, Federal Hall, the very place where Washington was sworn in, and where he gave that prophetic warning of what would happen if America ever turned away from God. It struck the foundation of America and put a crack in the foundation of that foundation.

And all around Ground Zero, every building was ruined or destroyed… except one. Which one? It was the little stone chapel inside of which they dedicated America’s future to God. And why was it protected? It was protected because there was an object outside the chapel which absorbed the full force of the calamity. The object was the harbinger. The sycamore. You see, the purpose of the harbingers are not to consign a nation to judgment, but to awaken it to redemption. For in 9/11 America was brought back to its ground of consecration. It’s a message of return, for the voice of God is calling this nation to return, in prayer, in humility, in repentance, in hope.
__________________
And here we stand today on the 21th day of January 2013, in the capital city, on the same day, the continuation of that first Inauguration day. And on that first inauguration, they gathered together in prayer and consecrated America’s future to God. And here now we, who are of that future, for whom they prayed and consecrated the nation, now come together, on that same day, likewise in a gathering of prayer before the Almighty.

We stand here, centuries later, in witness to God’s hand of faithfulness and blessing on this land. But we stand here also in witness to the fact that America has done exactly that of which, on that first day, we were warned never to do. We bear witness that we have turned from His eternal ways of order and right. We have turned and are rapidly turning away from His face.

And that is why it is so crucial that we have gathered here, in this place, and on this day. For very shortly, the president will place his hand on an object… the Bible. And I say to you, Mr. President, we have come here to pray for America, for its government, for you, its leader, and for its future. We pray for your blessing and for your prosperity in the will of God. For only in God’s will can we ever know true blessing. The answer is not found in the agendas of man, but in that on upon which your hand will rest, upon the Word of God. For everything else will pass away, but the Word of God will abide forever. And so it must be asked, with respect… Can you lay your left hand upon His word and then with your right hand enact laws against it? Can you invoke the name of God to assume the presidency and then use the presidency in any way to endorse that which clearly wars against the ways of the God you invoke? Can you stand in the city name after our first president, and perform the act that he first performed on that first day, and ignore the warning he gave on that day to the nation. Can you do all that and disregard the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained. Can you utter the words ‘so help me God’ if you should in any way take part in helping to lead a nation away from the God whose help you invoke.

We pray for your blessing in the will of God. For if a nation that once knew the Almighty is called to return to Him, then so too must the one who leads it.

You will hold in your hand the Bible of Abraham Lincoln. But do you not know what Lincoln said and did. In the midst of the darkness that engulfed his land, a darkness he saw as the righteous judgment of God, Lincoln issued a call to the nation to return. Abraham Lincoln said this:

It is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon
The overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions, in
humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead
to mercy and pardon; And to recognize the sublime truth, announced in
the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.

And, insomuch as we know that, by His Divine Law, nations like individuals are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land, may be but punishment, inflicted upon us, for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people?..
We have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us….

It behooves us then, to humble ourselves before the offended power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness…”

So Lincoln sent forth this call for America to repent, to return to God, and to seek His mercy. Soon after the call went forth, the tide of war would begin to turn and would ultimately lead to national healing.
The words of Abraham Lincoln ring out to us today – those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.
Has this nation now grown so far from God that we can’t imagine a president doing so today? Mr. President, if you look to Lincoln as your model then dare to follow him in his actions.

For all the politics, and all the parties, all the inaugural balls, and all the voices of political correctness, and all the sounds of applause will grow still and silent, and we will all, we will each, stand before the Almighty. And it will not matter then how many votes we won or praises we garnered– only this – were we faithful to Him and to His word.

The voice of Lincoln now cries out to us and pleads, ‘Let us humble ourselves, confess our national sins, and pray for forgiveness.’

As it is written and promised in the word of God:
If My people who are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways, then I will hear from heaven I will forgive their sin, and I will heal their land.

We have come here on the 21st day of January 2013, to the capital city on the day of the Presidential Inauguration, for that purpose, to humble ourselves and pray, and to seek His face, and to turn from our evil ways.

The time is late. The hour is critical. A great nation proceeds in rapid spiritual descent. And the signs of warning and judgment are manifesting in the land. The shadow of judgment is upon us. And for those who would be ask “How, in light of judgment, can one be saved, or safe?” We give this answer - The word in Hebrew for safety and salvation is Yeshua. Yeshua is the name which we know in English as ‘Jesus.’ Outside of Him there is no safety. But inside of Him there is no fear. It was for Him and in His name that this nation, this civilization, this city on a hill, named America, came into existence. And it is only to Him and in His name that its problems can ultimately be answered. He remains the answer, the light in the darkness, and the hope when all other hopes are faded and gone. And to all who come, He will receive. And He calls out ‘Come.

For all you who dwell in darkness, it’s time to come. And you will not be turned away.

And for all you who know Him, for you His people, it is time to put away any shade of darkness and compromise – and take up the mantle of your calling.

It’s time to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world you were called to be, in truth, in power, and love. It is time to light up the darkness.
It’s time to be strong. It’s time to be bold. It’s time to be radical.

The watchmen are crying out, and the trumpets are sounding.

And the voice of the Lord is calling to this nation, and saying “Return,”

And calling to His people and saying, “Return,”

Let the word go forth. Let the power of God be seen in this land. And let revival burst forth like a mighty river.

The voice of one crying in the wilderness:

Prepare the way of the Lord

Prepare the way of the Lord

Make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God

Every valley shall be exalted

And every mountain and hill shall be cast down

The crooked way shall be made straight

And the rough way shall become a plain

And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed

And all flesh will see it together

For the mouth of the Lord has spoken

Kumee Oree Ke Vah Oreich

Arise and shine for your light is come

And the glory of the Lord has risen upon you

And nations will come to your light

And kings to the brightness of your rising



In the name above all names that are named

Yeshua Ha Mashiach, Jesus the Messiah

The King of Kings

And the Lords of Lords

The Light of the World

The Hope of America

The Lion of the Tribe of Judah

And the glory of His people Israel

AMEN & AMEN

[OBW]

You don't support your principles with scripture. Your guru is taking scripture and seeking to reanalyze events so that a pattern can be found. The magic formula that will either evidence God's judgment or bring God's favor. A sycamore fell over at some point after something else so there is a pattern. That was not the first or last sycamore to fall over. And generally, "felled" means to have been cut down. No one cut this one down. Terrorists spreading the fear of a false god set events in motion that caused many things to fall. Among them was a sycamore, roots and all. Funny thing is that this was not the first sycamore to fall. It might not have been the only sycamore to fall. But it is the one that was found and given special properties.

How about "be subject to rulers and authorities" (talking about the rulers of the world, not the church).

From the beginning I agreed that we should pray. And always pray.

But what are we being called to pray about by this fear monger? Blessing on the nation for its righteousness? (Now there is a good laugh.) I am all for the continuation of the US for generations to come. But it is not, has never been, nor never will be the focus of my spiritual energies. Neither will its laws that allow for what we declare to be immorality. Such as homosexuality, abortion, divorce, sexual promiscuity (as long as you don't pay for it and are not in Nevada), and so on. Instead, my focus is on what I have been charged by Jesus to do — love God and love my neighbor as myself. Unlike Israel, the US is not bound to a religious code as a nation. It is not a theocracy. Jesus came and was born in a nation that was ruled by another nation. Israel was never again simply a theocracy. That ended. They were never free again. And the nation that was current ruler over them was about as immoral and pagan as they come. And the one that conquered them was not really much better.

And he did not say anything about the Roman empire.

Now we come to a nation that was clear that the church was not the nation and the nation was not the church. And you want to declare that suddenly the pattern of Isaiah's prophecies has appeared and we are being warned? For what? Why not 200 years ago? Do you think we were really better then?

What are we being judged for? Allowing the homosexuals out of the closet? Really? You think that the "love your neighbor" position on this subject is to incarcerate them? Or better yet, stone them? And since we haven't at least forced them to be private about it, our nation is doomed?

If that is my God, then he is not the one I read of the in the Bible. Someone has stolen my God!!

And I think it is the Moral Majority, and Cahn, and others like him who did it. Who substituted bigoted and vengeful God for the one who charged us to live in unity and peace as we love our neighbors as ourselves?

Maybe the problem is that some of these people don't think much of themselves.

[OBW]

l do you one better. Here's the written transcript, for searching, cutting, and pasting, to make points:



THE FOLLOWING IS THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE KEY NOTE ADDRESS JONATHAN GAVE AT THE PRESIDENTIAL INAUGURAL PRAYER BREAKFAST - ‘MESSAGE

February 9, 2013 at 5:44pm
THE MESSAGE
TO AMERICA
JONATHAN CAHN
jdc©2013
THE PRESIDENTIAL INAUGURAL
PRAYER BREAKFAST


KEYNOTE ADDRESS:
January 21, 2013

Thanks Harold. This was really important.


Important to see how he could declare that words spoken by a man in the 1700s could confer God's blessing on the US. And how that blessing could, or must, be removed under different conditions.


For those who see and believe what Cahn is saying, I pray that their eyes would be opened. That they would awaken from their slumber.


Meantime, this thread is just another opportunity for some with a divergent view of things to create chaos. It has happened before. Some came to declare everything that was not really pure to be idolatry and the forum almost died. Now we are given the chance to pray for one of the most idolatrous things Americans know anything about, and that is its status as some kind of God-blessed nation because of a formula of spells cast, er, sorry, words spoken and prayers made by men over 200 years ago. This is our idol. Our replacement for God. We don't fear God. We fear a government that doesn't let us rant against the government. That makes us tolerate gay people in public. Or that allows abortion to happen legally (and won't let us bomb their clinics).

No more on this thread.

[awareness]

From Cahn ... 9 paragraphs in - post #271:

Those who came to these shores four centuries ago to found a new civilization did so by dedicating it to God, committing it for His purposes and glory. America was to be a city on a hill, a civilization to which others would look. It was to be a holy commonwealth. And so they modeled it after Israel of the Bible.

[Nell]

Thanks for posting that, awareness. I'm still looking for the quote "the US was the equivalent to Israel in the world."

I did find this:

But there was another civilization that was likewise founded on God’s word, dedicated to His will, and consecrated to His purposes, from its very inception – America. Those who came to these shores four centuries ago to found a new civilization did so by dedicating it to God, committing it for His purposes and glory. America was to be a city on a hill, a civilization to which others would look. It was to be a holy commonwealth. And so they modeled it after Israel of the Bible.

It wasn't equivalent. It was a model. Not the same.

I think it's important that we read what Cahn actually said as well as what he didn't say.

As for this:

Originally Posted by OBW

Meantime, this thread is just another opportunity for some with a divergent view of things to create chaos. It has happened before. Some came to declare everything that was not really pure to be idolatry and the forum almost died.

Spoken like a true Local Church elder. Don't say anything "negative" and don't disagree with me or the forum might die.

Tell me, are you divergent or am I?

This thread is another opportunity to discuss a topic. If you choose not to participate, so be it. You are certainly allowed to present your point of view, as are we all. We are all adults who can read and form an opinion for ourselves. Being told what to think is not going to happen. I'm not in the Local Church anymore.

I think we're doing fine. This topic has, however, taken on another layer: the topic itself, and our right/ability to express our "divergent" opinions without oversight.

Nell

[OBW]

And, consistent with past experience, the ad hominems begin to flow. I have not, nor would I have ever been a Local Church elder. They wouldn't have me.

But there was another civilization that was likewise founded on God’s word, dedicated to His will, and consecrated to His purposes, from its very inception – America. Those who came to these shores four centuries ago to found a new civilization did so by dedicating it to God, committing it for His purposes and glory. America was to be a city on a hill, a civilization to which others would look. It was to be a holy commonwealth. And so they modeled it after Israel of the Bible.

Not an accurate description of the nation of Israel. The nation of Israel was founded by God who established a covenant that put requirements on them to retain God's blessing. It is entirely revisionist to think that Israel created their own blessing by deciding to be really, really good and follow God really closely, so God relented and agreed to it.

Yes, they were committed to God's purpose and glory. But not because they decided to, but because selected them and told them to.

You asked for scripture. The fact is that you and others came here and claimed that this blessing on America was once true because of what some men did a little over 200 years ago. Since there does not seem to be anything in the Bible about random nations making this kind of deal with God, rather than requiring us to disprove your thesis, you need to establish it. And the fact that Washington did anything is not the proof. There needs to be somewhere in scripture whereby some nation other than Israel, by their own volition, could command the blessing of God.

Seems like a grandiose version of the name it and claim it prosperity gospel.

1. On what basis can any of the founders of America establish a country that commands the blessings of God.

2. Without requiring everyone to read someone's book(s) theorizing these things, lay out how scripture provides specific warnings that are generally related to any course of national failure and not specifically to that or Israel.

3. Provide the modern sequence by which we should now be warned of our slippage with respect to God's special blessing. List the modern signs. Tell how each actually replaces the OT version for our current consideration.

4. Since you have read the book, provide a very brief synopsis of how it was that Cahn (or whoever) first got the idea that something like this was happening and then how they went about trying to determine if it was true (of course, that assumes that they actually tell us how they did it).

If you choose to ignore this request, then I can live with that. But if you want to prove to us that you are actually open to consider the truth or falsity of Cahn's claims, then I suggest that you actually go through the evidence as I suggest. It gives us the opportunity to also go through it an be convinced. Or you to go through it and change your mind. As long as you just say "read the book" then you are not much of an ambassador of what appears to be the most important thing since the Bible itself. I'm not going to read the Koran or any other book that seems to contradict the very teachings of the God I follow, even if there is something in it that might be true. If there is really something there, it is going to take more than saying it is true to change my mind. And hopefully the same can be said for others here.

And if you succeed, then you have won the "debate." If you fail, then maybe you learn something. But if you simply refrain, then you have not really engaged in the process.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by OBW

Meantime, this thread is just another opportunity for some with a divergent view of things to create chaos. It has happened before. Some came to declare everything that was not really pure to be idolatry and the forum almost died. Now we are given the chance to pray for one of the most idolatrous things Americans know anything about, and that is its status as some kind of God-blessed nation because of a formula of spells cast, er, sorry, words spoken and prayers made by men over 200 years ago. This is our idol. Our replacement for God. We don't fear God. We fear a government that doesn't let us rant against the government. That makes us tolerate gay people in public. Or that allows abortion to happen legally (and won't let us bomb their clinics). No more on this thread.

I have not had the time or interest to follow this whole thing in detail, but I don't see where this Cahn fellow has promoted what is contained in the last part of Mike's rant here. (or, I should say, I don't see where Nell or anyone else is promoting such things) As yu'al know, I REALLY, REALLY try to discourage any kind of "political" wrangling on the Forum. God knows we have enough controversial things to discuss without getting into politics!

Mike is one the most long term and respected members of our little forum here, but I think the "create chaos" blast is a little out of line and I bet he wishes he can take that one back. (I can take it back for him if he wants)

There is a larger issue I want to quickly address. When some member posts something, it is not to be taken as the official position of LocalChurchDiscussions.Com - and that goes for anything I post as well.... unless of course I say that what I'm about to post is to be taken as the official position of LocalChurchDiscussions.Com Seriously, and I've noticed come up a few times recently, some folks are taking things a little too seriously around this place. (and didn't we get enough of that in "The Lord's Recovery"?) We are just "discussing", not preaching or making earth-shaking declarations. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't get into some serious topics, it's just that we are all brothers and sisters that share a common history in a movement that was infamous for taking itself WAY too seriously, so I'm hoping that we can all take that into consideration in our dialog.

Public Service Announcement Over.

Your brother who is unto Him.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

1. On what basis can any of the founders of America establish a country that commands the blessings of God.

Y'all are gonna laugh. I offer this only to point out that there are alternate possibilities to how America was founded, or what it was founded upon.

First of all, why is God judging America today, when it turned away from being true Christian way more back when they were committing genocide and holding slaves. Back when, in fact, we were getting the claimed blessings ... on the backs and lives of others. Wouldn't God have judged us back then, and not blessed us? Truth is, any blessings on America did not come from God. It came by non-Christian greed, and killing of neighbors for their lands ... not loving them.

But back to my original thought.

When America was "discovered" there was already people here who had a government established. It's referred to as the Five Nations of the Iroquois.

It was a democratic republic, with representatives voted on by each tribe. And they had, way before us (wasn't an easy sell back then) women's voting rights. In fact, and this is presented because it would be a nice practice today, but again is a hard sell, if any of the representatives was seen to be enriching themselves by their position, the women threw them out of office immediately. Wouldn't that be a great practice today?

Anyway, Ben Franklin spent a lot of time around their campfires, and learned about their long standing democratic republic. And modeled our government after it.

So America was founded on the faithful of The Great Spirit. Not on Christianity at all.

And Cahn is completely wrong, wrong, wrong.

I won't encumber the forum with my proofs of this. If anyone is interested in my proofs please contact me in PMs.

[UntoHim]

I should have known my "REALLY REALLY try to discourage any kind of political" remark would incite Harold to come out with one of his classic history lessons for us ignorant American baby boomers, who have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of The Native Republic of America, Ben Franklin around camp fires or the faithful of The Great Spirit.

So Harold, you needn't worry about encumbering the forum with proofs because, even if such proof existed, it's so far off topic from this forum that I'm surprised that even you would attempt to take us on that merry-go-round.

Next post needs to address the actual issue(s) at hand or.....

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I should have known my "REALLY REALLY try to discourage any kind of political" remark would incite Harold to come out with one of his classic history lessons for us ignorant American baby boomers, who have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of The Native Republic of America, Ben Franklin around camp fires or the faithful of The Great Spirit.

So Harold, you needn't worry about encumbering the forum with proofs because, even if such proof existed, it's so far off topic from this forum that I'm surprised that even you would attempt to take us on that merry-go-round.

Next post needs to address the actual issue(s) at hand or.....

I thought awareness' post was a truly thought provoking rebuttal to Republican Christian political leanings. If our "blessed" Christian past was so pleasing to God, how could we as a nation promote slavery?

[awareness]

It was Cahn that opened up the question of the founding of America. So alternative views are squarely on topic, as a rebuttal.

Or are you positing, UntoHim, that only Cahn's view can be right on your forum?

You've allowed us to run off with the founding of America, and to Cahn.

And neither have anything to do with Nee, Lee, and the local church.

This thread was off topic from the get-go.

Am I lying?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'll do you one better. Here's the written transcript, for searching, cutting, and pasting, to make points:

But there was another civilization that was likewise founded on God’s word, dedicated to His will, and consecrated to His purposes, from its very inception – America. Those who came to these shores four centuries ago to found a new civilization did so by dedicating it to God, committing it for His purposes and glory. America was to be a city on a hill, a civilization to which others would look. It was to be a holy commonwealth. And so they modeled it after Israel of the Bible.

I saw the video and I read the transcripts. God help us if you believe this stuff. Let's be careful and I sincerely mean very careful here. While UntoHim doesn't want political this is all political. There is next to no spiritual reality involved. It's the same thing I heard 30 years ago from my uncle with just a different twist. Now his daughter is espousing this stuff. In WWII 20 million Russians were killed and 6 million Jews and you think we have a problem. We need a reality wake up call but it is not from Cahn. We have been undergoing a transformation of the politicization of Christianity in America over the last 25 years starting with the moral majority which has weakened the churches. When I was out preaching the gospel on the streets of Detroit, Minneapolis, Santa Cruz etc there never was this political dimension. We are toast, folks. Our worst enemy is ourselves and the stuff from this video or transcript.

The Nazis became powerful because of the way they nationalized Germany noting the corruption of their nation etc. Do you realize that the Christian Churches in Germany largely supported Nazi Germany? It was the underground "Confessing Church" which had opposed Hitler and they were largely made up of liberal Christians. Niemoller, a Christian Minister, is responsible for the famous quote which I am sure most of you have heard. He made this statement after spending 8 years in a concentration camp and freed by American forces in 1945. I don't want to go into his background but he largely supported the Nazis rounding up the Jews:

"In Germany, they came for the Communists and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the traditionalists and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a traditionalist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn’t speak up because I was Protestant. Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Historically it is nationalism that has been the problem and not the "liberal" corruption" quoted by Cahn. Please wake up. Here are a couple verses of the Bible that the Nazis used to round up the Jews: I Thess. 2:15 and John 8:37-44 take care my friends especially if this stuff takes root. Who does Cahn want rounded up?

[Dancing]

Originally Posted by Dave

Historically it is nationalism that has been the problem and not the "liberal" corruption" quoted by Cahn. Please wake up. Here are a couple verses of the Bible that the Nazis used to round up the Jews: I Thess. 2:15 and John 8:37-44 take care my friends especially if this stuff takes root. Who does Cahn want rounded up?

Please provide the answer. What are you thinking? Are you really suggesting Cahn is inciting a campaign to round up a certain "people group" with this book?

The opposite of naivité is being overly complex and skeptical. It is evident that you can't see that Cahn wants nothing more than that God's people truly repent.

To the pure all things are pure.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

You asked for scripture.

No. I asked for a reference in Cahn's writing. Not scripture.

Originally Posted by OBW

If you choose to ignore this request, then I can live with that. But if you want to prove to us that you are actually open to consider the truth or falsity of Cahn's claims, then I suggest that you actually go through the evidence as I suggest. It gives us the opportunity to also go through it an be convinced. Or you to go through it and change your mind. As long as you just say "read the book" then you are not much of an ambassador of what appears to be the most important thing since the Bible itself.

I'm not ignoring your request, I'm addressing it by declining. The purpose of a discussion is to discuss a topic. I have nothing to prove to you. Read Cahn and discuss...be convinced, or not. We are all adults. We can read and form our own opinion. If others want to research further, that's fine too. I would never discourage you from doing that OBW. I believe others can form their own opinion, too.

I personally believe that your mind is made up and there is no possibility that I would ever be able to satisfy your requirements...not in this life ... or nay...even in the next... . Even so, I have no desire to attempt to change your mind or win a debate. That's not what it's about for me. I've enjoyed the discussion because I believe others can decide a matter for themselves.

Originally Posted by OBW

I'm not going to read the Koran or any other book that seems to contradict the very teachings of the God I follow, even if there is something in it that might be true. If there is really something there, it is going to take more than saying it is true to change my mind. And hopefully the same can be said for others here.

And if you succeed, then you have won the "debate." If you fail, then maybe you learn something. But if you simply refrain, then you have not really engaged in the process.

This is a discussion forum. I've already engaged in the process, and have been "engaged" for quite some time. I won't engage in your process. I've already lost that. I don't need to "win" or "succeed" in the eyes of men. I just wanted to discuss the topic.


Nell

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I have not had the time or interest to follow this whole thing in detail, but I don't see where this Cahn fellow has promoted what is contained in the last part of Mike's rant here. (or, I should say, I don't see where Nell or anyone else is promoting such things) As yu'al know, I REALLY, REALLY try to discourage any kind of "political" wrangling on the Forum. God knows we have enough controversial things to discuss without getting into politics!

Mike is one the most long term and respected members of our little forum here, but I think the "create chaos" blast is a little out of line and I bet he wishes he can take that one back. (I can take it back for him if he wants)

There is a larger issue I want to quickly address. When some member posts something, it is not to be taken as the official position of LocalChurchDiscussions.Com - and that goes for anything I post as well.... unless of course I say that what I'm about to post is to be taken as the official position of LocalChurchDiscussions.Com Seriously, and I've noticed come up a few times recently, some folks are taking things a little too seriously around this place. (and didn't we get enough of that in "The Lord's Recovery"?) We are just "discussing", not preaching or making earth-shaking declarations. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't get into some serious topics, it's just that we are all brothers and sisters that share a common history in a movement that was infamous for taking itself WAY too seriously, so I'm hoping that we can all take that into consideration in our dialog.

Public Service Announcement Over.

Your brother who is unto Him.

No need to take back my challenge or my rant.

Note that I did not provide the specifics of who said what I quoted before. It may not all be from the person that said this one thing, but there was a challenge to provide verses to show how it is that Cahn is wrong. And in the bit I posted, there is asserted that there is a basis upon which modeling a society upon the OT Israel by committing it to God and dedicating it to His purposes will provide blessings for the country. And further that the general slide of the country from that place will not only remove the blessings, but even invite a form of wrath such as through the allowance of the attacks of 9/11.

You say that we should simply have a discussion about it. Well that's really getting somewhere. Some say that thing is true and sound and others disagree. Cahn evidently asserts that these warnings, which are patterned after events and prophecies in the Bible, are now seen in modern US and are evidence that catastrophe either allowed or orchestrated by God is coming if we (the US, not just the church) do not return to God.

We can dance around the premise of whether the US was ever sufficiently "for God" to attain such a status. But that will be strictly a matter of opinion. And it seems that there is a standoff there. But since the whole thing is based upon the notion that the scriptures provide any nation the ability to command God's blessing via mirroring enough of the positive elements of the covenant with Israel. And further that the serious of warnings provided to Israel are specifically, down to the literal occurrence of metaphorical events, being seen in America and are evidence that we are under the beginning of a similar judgment but God.

To make this kind of claim requires more than a claim. There needs to be a sound basis allowing for this kind of transference of the specifics of the covenant with Israel and the transference of the specific warnings by God concerning the punishment that was to come. So I request evidence that there is a way for a nation to obtain Israel-like status through their own volition. It needs to come from scripture, not just from comparing prayers or the words of men. we can dress-up and act any way we want but it is nothing if there is not a basis for it actually achieving the thing claimed.

And then there are these warnings. They were given to Israel due to their failure to live up to the covenant with God. I need a basis to transfer them to today, not just as a wake up to the church for falling asleep at the wheel, but to a whole secular nation for "falling away from God." Of course that is entirely predicated upon the claim that such nation was ever really "for God."

I need a spiritual basis grounded in the scripture to consider such an effort worthy of taking energies away from the actual calling that I already see in the scripture.

You call this politics? Asking for scriptural evidence that the claim is valid?

I have ranted against the claims. I have seen nothing other than efforts (even if honestly believed, like Lee) to turn very real and meaningful scripture into something that I find no evidence for. The general rule is that the one who makes a claim needs to support and defend it. It is not simply presumed true and all who disagree required to rebut it. Yet that is where we are now.

I am asking for evidence that it is true. As I have not seen anything that provides that evidence, I wonder out loud if there are some eyes that are not seeing clearly. And am personally attacked as being like a Local Church elder. And the fact that I put it as a prayer is derided as being that of a Pharisee. I know that PMs are private, but it was to me, so I will reveal that much of it.

And you call me the one politicking?

I've seen this before and it was not pretty. A novel approach to something that is simply insisted on as being the way it is followed by rather personal assaults on those who do not see it or agree with it, then by the exit of the ones who claim to have been mistreated. Seems that declaring something a principle makes it above reproof. There can be no scrutiny. The fact that it is a principle is not debatable. It requires no proof. And to request it gets the ire of the moderator, even if not officially standing as the moderator at the time. But with the threat of the moderator being provided.

Condescending and patronizing by referring to my longevity on the forum does not diminish what I see as the truth of the outcome of certain kinds of topics here. I have observed it on more than one occasion.

And I guess I should go easy on this one because . . . well, read between the lines. This is a contentious subject. It has been mired in emotions, claims and counter-claims. But for something so allegedly important, it has not been provided with a sound theological basis. I am requesting that basis. And quoting a verse and calling it a principle is not a valid basis. There needs to be evidence that it is intended as a principle rather than a specific thing.

So if you don't want to do this, or don't want anyone to request that it be done, then I suspect that we will be left with more and more random, probably unscriptural (I say probably because it is playing politics to ask for a sound scriptural base), theologies tossed about here that are allowed no real analysis. As it is, the claim is that I have to read Cahn's book and see for myself. Last time I looked, this forum is not about the books of Cahn any more than the writings of those guys who claimed that their writing was scripture. I should not have to read Cahn to defend against him. Someone should distill it down to the evidence that makes it so. Not the evidence that he claims is the warning against the US, but the evidence that it could actually be true. Saying that we have to read his book or show where he says any specific thing is nonsense. They have to show how it is that anything they want to claim from within his book is worthy of serious consideration.

And, again, I do not request that you delete anything. It should all stand. You may like to call my request a challenge. But a discussion that seeks truth is not just idle chatter. There needs to be evidence to support a claim of truth. I have requested it. And if you want to call it a challenge, I would agree. But if you want to declare that to be unacceptable, then you have declared the forum closed to actual discussion of the merits, or lack thereof, of this man's writings. Writings that caused some sisters to return to the forum after a long silence to challenge us to pray for the return of America's OT Israel-like blessing from God.

I am not the only person who has pushed-back. I might be the only one who has challenged the soundness of the theology. Or the actual connection to scripture. So I ask for the basis and I am bad while emotions claim that this disaster is coming because we went back on our covenant with God and it is unassailable.

If you need to protect them because they are sisters, then you need to consider whether they are the best defenders of their position. And if there is no one else to do it for them, where does that leave us? With a thread that should be shuttered and deleted? Probably not. Sets as bad precedence.

I don't buy that position. It is quite acceptable for sisters to propose anything. But they are subject to the same standards for debate and argument. Otherwise they should not be allowed to present what they will not defend while others defend them against the need to defend.

The challenge is valid and is rational for this kind of discussion. Stop complaining when someone actually challenges the premises. I won't say they need to put up or shut up, but they definitely need to put up. Or put up with the push-back. They have no basis to complain at this point. They have not made a case. Just stated a premise and wrapped it in spiritual words and a plea that it is just about getting us to pray. Sounds more serous than that. As if no one is praying. The problem presented is not simply to pray, but to pray for specific things. It is not just to return to God. And, by the way, those who are praying are not in need of returning to God. The faults that are heralded are from those who were never with God in the first place. There is no returning. So we say it is about prayer. But that is not all that it is. It is about selling a modern Israel in America. One that has the ability to move God's hand and demand blessing.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Dancing

Please provide the answer. What are you thinking? Are you really suggesting Cahn is inciting a campaign to round up a certain "people group" with this book?

“Round up” is a figure of speech just as Cahn uses his own metaphors.

Cahn writes: And so this message will not be politically correct, nor will it be political. It will be biblical. It will be true. And wherever it falls, so be it. I will not hold back. And if I offend you, I apologize but I cannot apologize for offending you. Without truth, there is no love. On a day that so embodies the future course of our nation, it is critical that we must both pray and speak what is true. No, it may not be politically correct but it is preaching to the choir i.e. the conservative religious right wing political party. It is very political and then he quotes his “Harbinger” book and sprinkles it throughout his message. A little self-serving don’t you think.

This is an old message to old people. He appeals to the Bible of the Old Testament of devastation and condemnation rather than the New Testament message of love, peace and redemption. Unfortunately our churches today are not filled with Millenials because they have been turned off by the politicizing of Christian churches which has taken place ever since the moral majority put Ronald Reagan in the white house. Interestingly enough in South America, Christianity is blossoming despite all the travails that they experience and surprisingly most of them lean left or moderate politically. God is not on the side of the political right or their policies of greed and control who appear to prefer to leave the poor in their poverty and the homeless on the streets. It is the corrupting influence of the political right upon our churches which is most problematic. Cahn has it wrong.

Cahn writes, And those, who simply remain true to what had always been known as true, are now vilified, marginalized, mocked, labeled ‘intolerant,’ and increasingly banned from the public square, and, ultimately, persecuted. I thought our country was based on the constitution. We are supposed to be a land of laws. Where is the separation of church and state? Persecuted? Mocked? Villified? I would agree with Cahn that he and the group who love his message may well be “intolerant” but otherwise they own most of the corporations, run most of the politics and thus responsibility is squarely on their heads.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

I personally believe that your mind is made up . . .

That would be me sis Nell, obviously.

Personally, given the history of preachers like Cahn, it wouldn't surprise me if Cahn is preaching to himself, like Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard, and in the future sometime we'll discover he's chasing after women, men, or both ... and it is he, not America, that needs to repent.

Originally Posted by Nell

I just wanted to discuss the topic.

And a grand discussion we've had so far. Thanks sis.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

That would be me sis Nell, obviously.

Personally, given the history of preachers like Cahn, it wouldn't surprise me if Cahn is preaching to himself, like Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard, and in the future sometime we'll discover he's chasing after women, men, or both ... and it is he, not America, that needs to repent.


And a grand discussion we've had so far. Thanks sis.

Grand indeed! Thank you for your voice of reason. I hope that is not the case with Cahn. From what I've read of him, he would not argue that he needs to repent. It wouldn't hurt the American people to repent either...leaders included. It couldn't hurt anyone to repent.

I could be mistaken, but I don't think Cahn is sounding this warning because he believes himself to be spic and span clean, or is any better off than the Founding Fathers or me and you. Remember Baalam's ass? God uses what he has.

I'm taking Cahn's message as a warning for me to repent, to watch, to pray and to wait and see, because, as I've said several times, time will tell. This is all I can do.

Nell

[UntoHim]

I don't have a lot of time this morning, so I'll have to make this short.

This is one of the most lightly moderated forums around, especially considering the contentious nature of the general theme of "Open discussion of the Local Church Movement and the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee". I don't ask a lot of people around here, just to be civil and to stay within the general theme...ok, ok, I'll say it...I want to see people stay on topic. I do not consider politics to be something appropriate for discussion on this forum, and one of the biggest reasons why should be painfully obvious to all concerned at this point. I have kicked around the idea (with Harold and others) of establishing a forum board (or thread if you will) that would allow for discussion of politics and the like. Since there seems to be some interest maybe this will be done sooner than later.

Everyone, I am not some apolitical, wobbling bowl of bland jello - I have strong convictions regarding religion's place at the political table, and also a Christian's civil responsibilities and duties, especially in a republic like America. However, I have even stronger convictions regarding the need for an open and safe place for former and current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to dialog and discuss the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement.

We all know that current members are discouraged from even lurking, much less participating on our forum, and I fear that heated political wrangling (is there any other kind?) will be a further discouragement, and even worse, provide some LSM/LC leaders with reasons for current members to avoid this forum altogether. THIS IS MY MAIN REASON FOR WANTING US TO STAY AWAY FROM POLITICS ON THIS FORUM. My heart aches and breaks for the current LC members. They need our concern, they need our love and they need TRUTH. Not the kind of truths that are discussed in the political arena - that's a kingdom with other kings and queens - I mean the truths that are found in the Word of God, and specifically in the Gospel of our King and Savior Jesus Christ.

[OBW]

Unto. I appreciate the response. And I understand your goals for this forum.

And in a sense, I have always thought that too much digging into other things besides the care for those in the LRC or who have come out and need help finding their way in what seems a foreign land is a way to displace our true usefulness.

But as long as this topic is going to be discussed, it should be discussed, not danced around.

I went back through some of the earliest posts in the thread and what is happening now was happening then. I will quote a little from a post (no names — I am not calling integrity or intentions into question)

The perspective I held about the founding of America, one that I was taught in school, has changed significantly over the last few years.

(The fact is that none of us human beings can say with certainty that we have the correct perspective on historical matters. We weren’t there in the early years of America's history and no one from that era remains that can answer our questions. Our only source of information is written materials. And, as is true with knowing the Bible, we should do our own research, homework, etc. to see if the things we have heard are so.)

And I agree with this. The "history" of the founding of the country is both sound and unclear. We know the main stories, but not "the rest of the story." And we never will.

But while we may not be able to declare certainty about the intents or all facts surrounding the founding of the nation, we can assess the claims of special satuts with God against the scripture. No, the name America will not be found one way or the other. But we can reasonably determine whether the promises and conditions were unique to Israel, or an open formula for anyone to use later on. And at least part of that assessment will surround whether it was Israel that proposed a basis for gaining favored-nation status, or God specifically chose them for a purpose and put rules upon them — rules, it might be seen in hindsight, that were designed to cure them of the problem of taking on the religions of the nations around them, and the people who still lived among them from former nations.

And if we actually conclude that the formula is open for claiming by another (like the US) then there might be a basis for viewing the warnings against the apostasy and idolatry of the children of Israel and applying them to us.

So, as cold have been suggested by the writer above, we should turn to our Bibles (rather than to the book of Cahn). What does scripture actually say on the subject?

But since it appears that the book of Cahn has spoken on at least some of the premises, it behooves someone who has read it to provide the basis. Not just jump to the conclusions that would follow if the basis was correct. When the thread was started over a year ago, one of the persons supporting this position declined. Another did not have the time (and I believe that to be true). But the refusal remains. There is no discussion without something to discuss. At this point, we are bantering over presumptions. And that is on both sides.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

We all know that current members are discouraged from even lurking, much less participating on our forum, and I fear that heated political wrangling (is there any other kind?) will be a further discouragement, and even worse, provide some LSM/LC leaders with reasons for current members to avoid this forum altogether. THIS IS MY MAIN REASON FOR WANTING US TO STAY AWAY FROM POLITICS ON THIS FORUM.

I fully agree. And that might suggest to simply shut this one down. But even that is not a good idea.

I suggest that if we want people to start to read and analyze their Bibles ouside of the overt influence of others (Nee, Lee, Cahn, or even reliable others), then this is as good a place as there is. Let's ignore the political implications of Cahn's claims, or even the well-meaning inentions of others and view the subject in terms of the scripture that should either justify the position, or provide no basis for it.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Again, ONE WHAT? The problem I have with this statement is that it invites the proverbial "camel's nose in the tent". It invites "if the Bible is wrong about this, what else is the Bible wrong about?" Next thing you now you find yourself swallowing the drivel of people like Bart Ehrman, and you end up questioning any and all of the major claims of Christ and the biblical writers. It's a Pandora's box that has led to the shipwrecking of the faith of many.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I don't have a lot of time this morning, so I'll have to make this short.
This is one of the most lightly moderated forums around,… Everyone, I am not some apolitical, wobbling bowl of bland jello - I have strong convictions regarding religion's place at the political table, and also a Christian's civil responsibilities and duties, especially in a republic like America. However, I have even stronger convictions regarding the need for an open and safe place for former and current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to dialog and discuss the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement.

We all know that current members are discouraged from even lurking, much less participating on our forum, and I fear that heated political wrangling (is there any other kind?) will be a further discouragement, and even worse, provide some LSM/LC leaders with reasons for current members to avoid this forum altogether. THIS IS MY MAIN REASON FOR WANTING US TO STAY AWAY FROM POLITICS ON THIS FORUM. My heart aches and breaks for the current LC members. They need our concern, they need our love and they need TRUTH. Not the kind of truths that are discussed in the political arena - that's a kingdom with other kings and queens - I mean the truths that are found in the Word of God, and specifically in the Gospel of our King and Savior Jesus Christ.

UntoHim…. I don't believe this is lightly moderated. You’re not crazy about talking about the Bible (see my first quote of you above) nor do you want Politics even though you allowed a very political message to go untouched (you even reposted the link).

I was one of those lurking former LC people who decided to give it a try. I have posted extensively about my Christian background to include my time in the LC, why I left and my life afterwards although there was not a lot of interest---no posts. The only time you are going to have people post is when there is some controversy. It makes it more interesting. Who are these people lurking, and what do they want to hear?

I am sure there are plenty of ex-LCers who can quote scripture left and right. Maybe you need to separate a forum for those who just want to quote scriptures back and forth and don’t want to have any passion for specific topics or ideas or toss around controversial thoughts regarding biblical thought. This entire thread is controversial but it is fine with me as long as I can post in it. In addition, there are a number of other threads so former LC people have places to go to share their experiences if that is what they want to do.

Let me add this. I appreciate your noble goal of having ex-LCers come on the forum and discuss orthodox doctrine, living experiences and related items. It's not going to happen the way you hope only because you will end up with people who believe exactly the same and it will get boring. People who have left have developed different perspectives and within reason I think they should be able to express themselves with other members disagreeing, quoting scripture etc to point out why they disagree.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

...
But since it appears that the book of Cahn has spoken on at least some of the premises, it behooves someone who has read it to provide the basis. Not just jump to the conclusions that would follow if the basis was correct. When the thread was started over a year ago, one of the persons supporting this position declined. Another did not have the time (and I believe that to be true). But the refusal remains. There is no discussion without something to discuss. At this point, we are bantering over presumptions. And that is on both sides.

Seriously? You want "someone" who has read the book to "provide the basis" for a discussion? Why don't you do it? You are the one who knows what that means. What does it mean?

Uh...wait...have you been throwing rocks at The Harbinger by Jonathan Cahn all this time having never read it? That could certainly generate what you call "banter over presumptions".

Maybe reading the book is all the "basis" necessary? If not, it would certainly be a good place to start.

Nell

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

Seriously? You want "someone" who has read the book to "provide the basis" for a discussion? Why don't you do it? You are the one who knows what that means. What does it mean?

Uh...wait...have you been throwing rocks at The Harbinger by Jonathan Cahn all this time having never read it? That could certainly generate what you call "banter over presumptions".

Maybe reading the book is all the "basis" necessary? If not, it would certainly be a good place to start.

Nell

Whoa Nelly...isn't this just a friendly discussion...okay, we have different views and I guess OBW didn't read the book but has been hurling arrows at it. On the other hand awareness provided a transcript of the video and there are many references to the Harbinger so maybe he has a point. In any case, maybe lowering the temperature would be fruitful.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

Seriously? You want "someone" who has read the book to "provide the basis" for a discussion? Why don't you do it? You are the one who knows what that means. What does it mean?

Uh...wait...have you been throwing rocks at The Harbinger by Jonathan Cahn all this time having never read it? That could certainly generate what you call "banter over presumptions".

Maybe reading the book is all the "basis" necessary? If not, it would certainly be a good place to start.

Nell

I did ultimately listen to the audio file as requested a year or so ago and it did not provide anything that was reasonably sound relative to making the kind of claims about the God of the Bible. Now you want me to read the book? You come and insist that this is important, but won't defend it?

You aren't defending it. Just saying it is so. Just like before.

So saying that I'm throwing rocks without information is simply wrong. If I manage to take the time to read it and disagree, then what? Another book? Another writer?

So far, you and others have not actually provided anything but a claim that the way that the founding fathers created the nation confers upon it benefits and blessings similar to those that were conferred on Israel in the OT. Nothing that makes it sound or reasonable to accept. Just statements that it is true.

Sounds like banter over presumptions at this point. You've given no reason to accept the premise, or enough of such premise to make reading Cahn's book worthy of consideration. You want us to take you seriously but are unwilling to seriously provide more than "it is in the book." This book is not the Bible so you need to provide a reason to read it. More than just an emotional appeal and wishful thinking. And that is all that it appears to be based on what I understand of the promises to Israel and God's dealings with them.

I didn't sign up for the book of the month club and I choose my reading (and spending on reading) a little more selectively than simply to become sure that what I already think is true. If you think I am wrong, provide something more. Don't assume that I am closed. My current position is not my original position. My positions are capable of change. I don't just want to disprove. I want to understand more than the rhetoric that has been bandied about here.

But refusing to acually join a discussion on the meat of the subject suggests something. Not sure what. But it does make the subject less appealing. Yet letting it run without comment seems unacceptable. Claiming that the US had the blessing of God in the past because of the founding fathers or whatever is hollow without a reason to accept it as true. As was pointed out a year ago, their sins were overlooked and now the sins of sinners who don't claim to be Christians are trotted out as a reason to lose this asserted blessing.

Funny that we have not really had any worse time of things than much of the rest of the world.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Uh...wait...have you been throwing rocks at The Harbinger by Jonathan Cahn all this time having never read it?

Wait! Wait! Isn't Harbinger fiction? Is your whole basis here, what you are supporting, and arguing for, based on an admitted novel?

Please clear that up for me sis? I'm feeling mighty foolish here, arguing over a novel. If so I sure do need to repent ... Cahn is right ... of being a fool ... and for taking Cahn serious enough to argue over it.

Ugh!

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Dave

UntoHim…. I don't believe this is lightly moderated.

This forum started about 6 1/2 years ago, and you haven't been around for 6 1/2 weeks, sorry but I'm going to have to let you know that the facts don't back you up on this one, my man. But that does not take away from the fact that you have been a breath of fresh air around here. You have already scattered enough dry bones to make it all worth while!

You’re not crazy about talking about the Bible (see my first quote of you above) nor do you want Politics even though you allowed a very political message to go untouched (you even reposted the link).

I'm so crazy about talking about the Bible that I think that most of the people around this place think that I'm crazy. Seriously, the quote you provided only shows that I don't consider the Bible's authenticity (and inerrancy in a selective sense) to be up for general debate on this forum. This was not an issue in the ministries of Watchman Nee or Witness Lee (or in the Local Church movement since Lee's passing) that I know of, so discussions involving these matters are a distraction, in my view, from the general theme of the forum.

I was one of those lurking former LC people who decided to give it a try. I have posted extensively about my Christian background to include my time in the LC, why I left and my life afterwards although there was not a lot of interest---no posts.

I think there has probably been a lot of interest, it's just that things have gotten a little muddled up with all this political wrangling. I for one am very interested in the path that you have found yourself on since leaving the LC movement. Apparently there is at least one other forum member that has had significant history with you back in the Santa Cruz days, and this really, really intrigues me, and I can't help but think that others wouldn't be interested as well.

The only time you are going to have people post is when there is some controversy. It makes it more interesting. Who are these people lurking, and what do they want to hear?

So there is not enough controversy in discussing the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement? Surely you must not be talking about this, right? So you think that only political controversy and controversy surrounding the authenticity of the New Testament counts as controversy?

I know for a fact that a number of current LC members lurk here, and in fact, at the risk of having the LSM secret police version of Homeland Security come after me, I know that certain people who have access to the secured servers at the Living Stream Ministry lurk here. But it's only those curious rank and file LC members that I'm concerned with, and it is not so much what they want to hear, but what they need to hear.

Let me add this. I appreciate your noble goal of having ex-LCers come on the forum and discuss orthodox doctrine, living experiences and related items. It's not going to happen the way you hope only because you will end up with people who believe exactly the same and it will get boring. People who have left have developed different perspectives and within reason I think they should be able to express themselves with other members disagreeing, quoting scripture etc to point out why they disagree.

And I appreciate your noble efforts as well, as misplaced as they may be. You see, as I think I made somewhat clear this morning, the goal is not to "discuss orthodox doctrine, living experiences and related items" - the goal is to have a open and safe place for discussions regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement. If these discussions take place (albeit within reason as you say) then I hardly doubt that they would be boring in the least. Yes, there will be disagreeing, sometimes even heated disagreeing, but that's what makes a horse race, right?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Wait! Wait! Isn't Harbinger fiction? Is your whole basis here, what you are supporting, and arguing for, based on an admitted novel?

Please clear that up for me sis? I'm feeling mighty foolish here, arguing over a novel. If so I sure do need to repent ... Cahn is right ... of being a fool ... and for taking Cahn serious enough to argue over it.

Ugh!

It "reads like" a novel. That's different from "being" a novel. OK?

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

It "reads like" a novel. That's different from "being" a novel. OK?

Nell

Quote from Amazon:

#1 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

Quote from Amazon:

#1 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction

awareness. It is also in Amazon's "Christian Mysteries" along with Cahn's "Harbinger Decoded" and "Harbinger Companion" But wait, don't miss out on Cahn's latest (this is in Amazon's "Christian Prophesies"): The Mystery of the Shemitah: The 3,000-Year-Old Mystery That Holds the Secret of America's Future, the World's Future, and Your Future! --- Just came out in Sept 2014

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

awareness. It is also in Amazon's "Christian Mysteries" along with Cahn's "Harbinger Decoded" and "Harbinger Companion" But wait, don't miss out on Cahn's latest (this is in Amazon's "Christian Prophesies"): The Mystery of the Shemitah: The 3,000-Year-Old Mystery That Holds the Secret of America's Future, the World's Future, and Your Future! --- Just came out in Sept 2014

Yes, and Sid Roth is selling a Shemitah bundle: the book with a 7-CD Series ... for ... FOR ... $49.00.

Can we say, merchandising the second coming?

Just as it's been as far back as we can see, the second coming is a big money maker. And Christians fall for it over and over again.

What do they say about a fool and his money?

And what does the gospels say about Jesus and the money changers?

Why is America the most Christian nation in the world ... and the most materialistic?

It's Cahn & Sid that need to repent.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes, and Sid Roth is selling a Shemitah bundle: the book with a 7-CD Series ... for ... FOR ... $49.00.

Cahn and Sid are working together on all of this. Here is a quote from Sid's website http://www.wnd.com/2014/09/holy-shem...eating-itself/ regarding Cahn's Shemitah book:
"As he did with his previous book, Cahn announced his findings on Sid Roth’s “It’s Supernatural” TV program – even before the book was officially released for sale by bookstores nationwide today."

"It's Supernatural" TV program...sounds to me to be a good place to announce a well thought out treatise of Shemitah and its prophesies.

There are all kinds of prophesy book deals on Roth's website. For $4.95 you can buy the sensational "Blood Moons" book. Interestingly enough, we had a blood moon early this morning about 3am although I didn't wake up in time to see it. I wonder what it all means.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Cahn and Sid are working together on all of this. Here is a quote from Sid's website http://www.wnd.com/2014/09/holy-shem...eating-itself/ regarding Cahn's Shemitah book:
"As he did with his previous book, Cahn announced his findings on Sid Roth’s “It’s Supernatural” TV program – even before the book was officially released for sale by bookstores nationwide today."

"It's Supernatural" TV program...sounds to me to be a good place to announce a well thought out treatise of Shemitah and its prophesies.

There are all kinds of prophesy book deals on Roth's website. For $4.95 you can buy the sensational "Blood Moons" book. Interestingly enough, we had a blood moon early this morning about 3am although I didn't wake up in time to see it. I wonder what it all means.

Thanks Dave, for the link. That's some freaky stuff from Sid, but very titillating ... and captivating of the mind.

I can see clearly why some coming out of the local church would follow this stuff. It's great stuff to fill the vacuums caused by leaving the LC, that longs to be refilled.

But where, on Sid's site, did you find Blood Moons for $4.95. The cheapest I found it was $14.36.

But I did happen to catch merchandising, merchandising, merchandising.

Mat_10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

When I'm on Sid's site I smell a wolf.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

So far, you and others have not actually provided anything but a claim that the way that the founding fathers created the nation confers upon it benefits and blessings similar to those that were conferred on Israel in the OT. Nothing that makes it sound or reasonable to accept. Just statements that it is true.

If nothing else, OBW's comments about our "founding fathers" highlights similar concerns we have all had about the "founding fathers" in the so-called Recovery. It is an often hidden fact to the general public that both political and church leaders will use their own versions of history to enhance their allure with their followers.

The forum has repeatedly debunked all notions that Luther, Guyon, Zinzendorf, Darby, Nee, or Lee were ever the sole oracles of God for any age, and neither have them or their followers been uniquely bestowed with God's special blessings and revelations.

Likewise, if America is the most blessed nation on earth, why are we just about the only place on earth that is regularly hit with destructive tornadoes? And to think that it is all the "red state" conservatives that are in tornado "alley," makes it all the more notable. These fine folks are partly spearheading the Tea Party movement with a return to all of America's basic core fundamental beliefs, including putting God back in our schools. A state like OK should be the most blessed place on earth, but instead they have been regularly hit with both natural calamities and terrorists like McVeigh.

The question was posed somewhere that if God wanted to warn us, how would He do it? The answer is His Spirit working in the hearts of God's children, and convicting the unbelievers of their sin. "He who has an ear, let him hear with the Spirit is speaking to the churches." The Book of Revelation shows clearly that many people, no matter now much "warning" God will send to earth in the form of natural and supernatural calamities, will still curse God.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Likewise, if America is the most blessed nation on earth, why are we just about the only place on earth that is regularly hit with destructive tornadoes? And to think that it is all the "red state" conservatives that are in tornado "alley," makes it all the more notable.

Pat Robertson knows. God is judging America for turning away from Him. Made clear by, abortions, God out of schools, gay marriage, such and so on. And the Red States are praying for it. But God sends tornadoes to the just and unjust. So they are both praying and paying.

All this, Robertson, Cahn and Sid, are creepy to the point of exciting superstition minds.

Essentially, it's a belief that a invisible hand is controlling everything. In fact, they think, it's the invisible hand of God.

Of course there's no way to empirically prove it. But grand elaborate word pictures can capture the mind.

In short, Cahn and all these apostolic peddlers, are current day mythmakers. And mythic powers (even those we look back on as totally false) have a long history of controlling the minds of the masses.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

In short, Cahn and all these apostolic peddlers, are current day mythmakers. And mythic powers (even those we look back on as totally false) have a long history of controlling the minds of the masses.

I read some of the Presidential Inaugural Prayer Breakfast speech by Cahn. It was a truckload of sanctimonious drivel. Illogical (Christians modelling after OT Israel?), untrue and self-serving. Dancing said that when principles are true once they're true always: I sense that what we see here is the timeless notion that whenever you get a roomful of politicians and preachers, this kind of dreck will gush forth.

And pity the poor reviled and persecuted Cahn, there having breakfast with the President and Congressional leaders, and all on the government dime no doubt. It's gotta be tough.

[Nell]

China Just Overtook The US As The World's Largest Economy

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/china...#ixzz3FZd31XV4

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

China Just Overtook The US As The World's Largest Economy

They will never surpass our national debt!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

China Just Overtook The US As The World's Largest Economy

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/china...#ixzz3FZd31XV4

Yes, the GDP. With 4 times the population of America that could easily be predicted.

Question: Since China is mostly atheist does the Shemitah cycle apply to them?

How does this relate to Cahn? Since America is going down and China is going up is that God's judgement on America?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

China Just Overtook The US As The World's Largest Economy

And your point is?

An ecnomy for a couple of billion people v an economy for 400 million. It was long overdue. And still leaves them way down the per-capita income list.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

But where, on Sid's site, did you find Blood Moons for $4.95. The cheapest I found it was $14.36.

It was one of the those "today only" sales. Sorry, you missed out.

[awareness]

Nell,

Since there's no way the I'm gonna buy any of this stuff, can you at least explain a little about Shemitah?

Is it a universal cycle of God? Does it apply to the whole earth for all time? or is it a Israel or America thing?

Is it Gods' cycle, or nature's? Is it a eternal principle, or temporary?

Please explain it a little, and where, when, how long, it applies.

Please pretty please, with a cherry on top....

Help this idiot out.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Nell,

Since there's no way the I'm gonna buy any of this stuff, can you at least explain a little about Shemitah?

Is it a universal cycle of God? Does it apply to the whole earth for all time? or is it a Israel or America thing?

Is it Gods' cycle, or nature's? Is it a eternal principle, or temporary?

Please explain it a little, and where, when, how long, it applies.

Please pretty please, with a cherry on top....

Help this idiot out.

I'll try to answer your questions if you promise not to be mean to me anymore.

I've just started reading it so if you promise, I'll get back with you.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

I'll try to answer your questions if you promise not to be mean to me anymore.

I've just started reading it so if you promise, I'll get back with you.

I promise to do my best. But can't I pick on you a little from time to time? You can pick on me, if you like. I don't mind. And if you find you might need to really give it to me, and maybe call me some choice names, hit me in PMs. Heck, I'll give you my cell # so we can talk it out. CMW & I chat from time to time. My bark is worse than my bite.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

I promise to do my best. But can't I pick on you a little from time to time? You can pick on me, if you like. I don't mind. And if you find you might need to really give it to me, and maybe call me some choice names, hit me in PMs. Heck, I'll give you my cell # so we can talk it out. CMW & I chat from time to time. My bark is worse than my bite.

There's "pickin-on" and there's "mean". You can't be mean. If you're mean, I might have to hurt you.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

There's "pickin-on" and there's "mean". You can't be mean. If you're mean, I might have to hurt you.

Nell

No mean. I promise.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by awareness

Cahn and all these apostolic peddlers, are current day mythmakers. And mythic powers (even those we look back on as totally false) have a long history of controlling the minds of the masses.

Many people are all abuzz about Jonathan Cahn’s The Harbinger, as if it is God’s latest word to mankind. The sweet alluring mystery has caught their minds and hearts. Cahn undeniably has the gift of gab but I am particularly suspicious of him and of his book.

I have not read it but I have downloaded a serious number of his spoken messages which have given me a lot of insight into his message. I actually witnessed him in his rabbinical garb presiding over the Jewish passover. I have researched the internet extensively because there are several people who warn against him.

“I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied” (Jeremiah 23:21, NKJV. My emphasis.)

Jonathan Cahn is a charlatan.

He calls his message “The Ancient Mystery that holds the secret of America’s future.” Why? Since it is no mystery to those who are familiar with God’s warnings through Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel and other Old Testament prophets and the Lord Jesus Christ who inaugurated the New Covenant, as well as His apostles. And why only for America – what about the rest of the world? I believe we have here evidence of Anglo-American Israelism.

“Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” says the LORD, “who steal My words everyone from his neighbor. 31 Behold, I am against the prophets,” says the LORD, “who use their tongues and say, ‘He says.’ 32 Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” says the LORD, “and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 23:30–32, NKJV. My emphasis.)

What is the relationship between the narrator, Nouriel Kaplan, and the so-called “prophet”, in Cahn’s narrative? Kaplan's spirit guide? It seems like that. We find in this “novel” also George Washington who transforms into King Solomon on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. American Freemasons regard George Washington as a man who became a god. This is celebrated by a huge fresco inside the eye of the Rotunda of the Capitol building in Washington DC: The Apotheosis of Washington. The “prophet” tells Kaplan: “In your dream the two events were joined together – Israel’s dedication and America’s inauguration.” This is blasphemy!

He is also apparently clearly infatuated with the Kabballah since he loves the Zohar, the book of Kabballah. To those who are not familiar with the Bible much of the Zohar even sounds Christian. In reality it presents a deceptive blend of distorted truth and Kabbalistic occultism. The Kabballah is full of astrological teachings, fortune telling, gematria, necromancy and demonology. (“Gematria is an Assyro-Babylonian system of numerology later adopted by Jews that assigns numerical value to a word or phrase in the belief that words or phrases with identical numerical values bear some relation to each other or bear some relation to the number itself as it may apply to a person's age, the calendar year, or the like.” – Wikipedia.) Sounds familiar? Sounds Cahn?

What is Jonathan Cahn then about? To the initiated he is the real thing but he is not. He is into Freemason occultism, Anglo-American Israelism, the Kabballah and Rabbinic occultism. O, yes, he uses the Bible to good effect to proclaim his heresies but that is to try and obscure his true objectives. It amazes me that people could actually read this hogwash and then believe it. It is superstition.

Read his book, believe it and proclaim it – at your peril.

“What communion has light with darkness?” (2 Corinthians 6:14).

NOTE:

Someone by the name of David James wrote a response: "The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction" in which he exposed Jonathan Cahn's approach. Guess what Cahn then did? Come on! You should be able to guess … he threatened to sue David James! Just like the LSM did when they did not like what was written about them. Cahn's argument: "I am losing money from sales because he wrote a book criticizing me."

Here is the link to that report:

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/1198271448.html

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Friedel

What is Jonathan Cahn then about? To the initiated he is the real thing but he is not. He is into Freemason occultism, Anglo-American Israelism, the Kabballah and Rabbinic occultism. O, yes, he uses the Bible to good effect to proclaim his heresies but that is to try and obscure his true objectives. It amazes me that people could actually read this hogwash and then believe it. It is superstition.

Read his book, believe it and proclaim it – at your peril.

“What communion has light with darkness?” (2 Corinthians 6:14).

NOTE:

Someone by the name of David James wrote a response: "The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction" in which he exposed Jonathan Cahn's approach. Guess what Cahn then did? Come on! You should be able to guess … he threatened to sue David James! Just like the LSM did when they did not like what was written about them. Cahn's argument: "I am losing money from sales because he wrote a book criticizing me."

Here is the link to that report:

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/1198271448.html

If you watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAFtormiU_0 which shows that even though Cahn frequently quotes the Bible, Cahn obtains some of his material from The Zohar (Hebrew Zohar "Splendor, radiance") which is widely considered the most important work of Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism. It is a mystical commentary on the Torah (five books of Moses), written in medieval Aramaic and medieval Hebrew. It contains a mystical discussion of the nature of God, the origin and structure of the universe, the nature of souls, sin, redemption, good and evil, and related topics.

The Zohar is not one book, but a group of books. These books include scriptural interpretations as well as material on theosophic theology, mythical cosmogony, mystical psychology, and what some would call anthropology.

This is an entirely different religion from Christianity even though they use parts of the OT. Draw your own conclusions. To be fair, Cahn denies that he has inclinations towards Kabbalah and supports his use of Zohar based on the fact that Paul quoted a Zeus poem on Mars Hill. He states that everything he has stated is Biblically supported. You have to do your own research about Cahn but I have serious concerns as to his intentions. Of course, it is just my opinion.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Dave

This is an entirely different religion from Christianity even though they use parts of the OT. Draw your own conclusions.

"Have untold numbers of Christians unwittingly accepted mystical Jewish thought? And after having done so, how many pastors, teachers, and other ministry leaders have preached messages connected to the claims of The Harbinger and have publicly endorsed, promoted, and defended the book and Jonathan Cahn? How many have shared this book and the documentary with unbelieving family and friends? How many millions of dollars have gone into keeping The Harbinger on so many best-seller lists?

"Something seems to be very wrong..."

- David James, excerpt from The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction

Read the whole excerpt here:

http://www.thebereancall.org/content...3-book-feature

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Friedel

"Have untold numbers of Christians unwittingly accepted mystical Jewish thought? And after having done so, how many pastors, teachers, and other ministry leaders have preached messages connected to the claims of The Harbinger and have publicly endorsed, promoted, and defended the book and Jonathan Cahn? How many have shared this book and the documentary with unbelieving family and friends? How many millions of dollars have gone into keeping The Harbinger on so many best-seller lists?

"Something seems to be very wrong..."
- David James, excerpt from The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction

Apparently this new book rebutting Cahn's book is the "real wake up call."

So Cahn sued the publisher because the book used too many quotes from his book in order to debunk it?

Sounds like something only LSM could dream up!

[OBW]

Another system of error. Mixing of the truth of the Bible with something else and proclaiming it to be the latest word from God.

Another charlatan out to fleece the flock. And some of our own have fallen for it. As the evidence piles up, it might be time to once again pray that eyes be opened. As the song proclaims:

Chains be broken
Lives be healed
Eyes be opened
Christ is revealed

And I do not see Christ revealed in this Anglo-American Israelism. Just blessings for little ol US. Because were so special. Just like back in the LRC.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

No mean. I promise.

OK. :-)

Nell

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

If you watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAFtormiU_0 which shows that even though Cahn frequently quotes the Bible, Cahn obtains some of his material from The Zohar (Hebrew Zohar "Splendor, radiance") which is widely considered the most important work of Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism. It is a mystical commentary on the Torah (five books of Moses), written in medieval Aramaic and medieval Hebrew. It contains a mystical discussion of the nature of God, the origin and structure of the universe, the nature of souls, sin, redemption, good and evil, and related topics.

The Zohar is not one book, but a group of books. These books include scriptural interpretations as well as material on theosophic theology, mythical cosmogony, mystical psychology, and what some would call anthropology.

This is an entirely different religion from Christianity even though they use parts of the OT. Draw your own conclusions. To be fair, Cahn denies that he has inclinations towards Kabbalah and supports his use of Zohar based on the fact that Paul quoted a Zeus poem on Mars Hill. He states that everything he has stated is Biblically supported. You have to do your own research about Cahn but I have serious concerns as to his intentions. Of course, it is just my opinion.

An entirely different religion? You read history. Where's the pure Christianity? The hermeneutic Cahn is using sees Christ in rabbinical teaching. Where have I seen that done before? Oh, that's right, in the New Testament where Christ is the cipher for OT prophesy. Can't get much more Christian than that. And you can't get much more world mythological than Golgotha as the axis mundi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi

Sure we may disagree with his politics and his reading of American history, but this guy is bringing some new fire to Christianity. Don't you agree? Or maybe that's the problem. And, he raises questions about the use of creative imagination in prophesy which have already been asked by people like Walter Breuggemann about prophesy in general. But, you're wise to about do the research and use critical thinking to evaluate his propositions and I appreciate the link.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Nell,

Since there's no way the I'm gonna buy any of this stuff, can you at least explain a little about Shemitah?

Is it a universal cycle of God? Does it apply to the whole earth for all time? or is it a Israel or America thing?

Is it Gods' cycle, or nature's? Is it a eternal principle, or temporary?

Please explain it a little, and where, when, how long, it applies.

Please pretty please, with a cherry on top....

Help this idiot out.

Well, new best friend, awareness. That didn't take long.

Here's what I've found:

Your question: Since there's no way the (that) I'm gonna buy any of this stuff, can you at least explain a little about Shemitah?

In English, the Elul 29 command ordains that every creditor shall "grant a release." But the original Hebrew commands every creditor to make a "shemitah." In those first two verses of Deuteronomy 15 the word shemitah appears no fewer than four times. At the end of the second verse it is written, "Because it is called the Lord's release." In Hebrew it is called the Lord's "Shemitah."

The word shemitah is most often translated as "the release" or "the remission." The English word remission is defined as "the cancellation or reduction of a debt or penalty." The Shemitah of ancient Israel refers not only to the releasing of the land but also to the nullification of debt and credit ordained by God and performed on a massive nationwide scale.

http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/pr...mitah-revealed
Quoting Cahn's book The Mystery of the Shemitah. Sorry. I looked for non-Cahn references but couldn't find one that defined the word "shemitah" as to its literal meaining.

Your question: Is it a universal cycle of God? Does it apply to the whole earth for all time?
That would be a question for God. I don't know. Here are the verses about what might be considered a "universal cycle of God".

Book of Leviticus: The Sabbath Year
25 The Lord said to Moses at Mount Sinai, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must observe a sabbath to the Lord. 3 For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops. 4 But in the seventh year the land is to have a year of sabbath rest, a sabbath to the Lord. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards.
Leviticus 25:1-4 New International Version (NIV)

Book of Exodus: Sabbath Laws
10 “For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops, 11 but during the seventh year let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, and the wild animals may eat what is left. Do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove.
Exodus 23:10-11 New International Version (NIV)

Book of Deuteronomy: The Year for Canceling Debts
15 At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. 2 This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel any loan they have made to a fellow Israelite. They shall not require payment from anyone among their own people, because the Lord’s time for canceling debts has been proclaimed.
Deuteronomy 15:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

Book of Jeremiah:
Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: I made a covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, saying: "At the end of seven years ye shall let go every man his brother that is a Hebrew, that hath been sold unto thee, and hath served thee six years, thou shalt let him go free from thee"; but your fathers hearkened not unto Me, neither inclined their ear." (Jeremiah 34:13–14)[12]

Book of Nehemiah:
"and if the peoples of the land bring ware or any victuals on the sabbath day to sell, that we would not buy of them on the sabbath, or on a holy day; and that we would forego the seventh year, and the exaction of every debt." (Nehemiah 10:31)[13]

Books of Chronicles:
"... And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia; to fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had been paid her sabbaths; for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years. (2 Chronicles 36:20–21)[14]

Books of Kings:
(Isaiah speaking) "... And this is the sign for you: This year you eat what grows of itself, and the next year what springs from that, and in the third year, sow and reap and plant vineyards and eat their fruit. And the survivors of the House of Judah that have escaped shall regenerate its stock below and produce boughs above." (2 Kings 19:20–30).

Your questions: Is it Gods' cycle, or nature's? Is it a eternal principle, or temporary?
Since God wrote it down in his book, I’d say it was his "cycle". (His seven day "cycle", a seven year "cycle", then seven seven-year "cycles" leading up to "the Jubilee" in the fiftieth year, which logically leads up to more "cycles" of 50 years.)

I don’t know of any verses that indicate this "cycle" (Shemitah) has an expiration date, but I don’t know. We do have this clue though:

Hebrews 8: 13 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (NIV)
If you believe that Jesus is God, and I do, this would seem to indicate that the Shemitah indeed could be considered a “universal cycle of God” and further, that the Shemitah is in effect today. But that's just me...thinking things through.

Your question: or is it a Israel or America thing? It's definitely an Israel thing. If it truly is a "universal cycle of God", would America be excluded? Would any nation be excluded? Ahhhhh…more questions.


Your question: Please explain it a little, and where, when, how long, it applies
I really don’t claim to be qualified to explain any more than “a little” and only then based on “a little” research. “Where” would be up to God. JCahn has put forth his theory about “where” as have others on this forum.

How long it applies? That question can be rephrased “When did it stop ‘applying’?” If indeed it did..."stop applying".

This is just what I think. I'm not qualified to speak with authority on this topic. It interests me and if God is doing something, I want to find out as much as there is to know about it.

Nell

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Nell

The word shemitah is most often translated as "the release" or "the remission." The English word remission is defined as "the cancellation or reduction of a debt or penalty." The Shemitah of ancient Israel refers not only to the releasing of the land but also to the nullification of debt and credit ordained by God and performed on a massive nationwide scale.

I don’t know of any verses that indicate this "cycle" (Shemitah) has an expiration date, but I don’t know.

David Watson (author of The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction) wrote a review on his website to review Cahn's third book that appeared on 2 September: The Mystery of the Shemitah. I will quote a little from his review:

My purpose for evaluating and critiquing The Mystery of the Shemitah is two-fold:

First, because so many people were influenced by The Harbinger and because this new book is already a best-seller, the Body of Christ needs to see that there is another side of the story that might not be completely obvious to some. And even for those who might sense something isn’t quite right, many won’t really work through the sometimes slow and often laborious task of carefully checking to make sure everything is correct.

Second, just as one of my goals in writing The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction? was to model the process of discernment, the same is true of this article. First and foremost, discernment involves checking everything against the Word of God to make sure all of the arguments, theories and claims are biblically sound. And then, beyond the biblical side of things, discernment also frequently involves evaluating the logic of arguments, the veracity of assertions from a historical perspective, and even the proper use of statistics which can be framed such that the true picture is obscured and hidden from the reader, even if unintentionally.

The Mystery of the Shemitah, which went to its second printing the day it was released, builds on the concepts and theories Jonathan Cahn first presented in The Harbinger, particularly those in the chapter also titled “The Mystery of the Shemitah.” The author’s theory is that God has visited warnings and / or judgment against the United States according to a seven-year cycle going back many decades. Although this reviewer agrees that America is deserving of God’s judgment and a call to repentance is definitely in order, the foundational premise of this book is biblically flawed from the outset. The Shemitah (Jewish Sabbath year) was an obligation given specifically and exclusively to the nation of Israel, and there is no biblical support for the idea that God would either require any other nation to observe the Shemitah year or that He would impose a Shemitah-type judgment according to a seven-year cycle on any nation, including Israel itself. Beyond this, the Shemitah, being a Sabbath and an integral part of the Law of Moses, was completely fulfilled in Christ and is no longer in operation(even it actually did affect other nations prior to the Cross).

Furthermore, none of the overwhelming number of assertions and fact-claims throughout the book concerning economic trends, financial statistics and historical events are documented whatsoever, raising the question of the source of the author’s information, the accuracy of that information, and why this most basic and necessary aspect of any research-based non-fiction book is completely missing. The burden of proof for such assertions and claims should never be on the reader if an author is to be taken seriously. In addition, the integrity of any publisher is rightly called into question when an author doesn’t cite his sources.

The bottom line is that, unfortunately, the significant problems that plague The Harbinger have possibly been exceeded in this book and so should give pause to anyone who takes the Word of God seriously.

You can read David Watson's full review of The Mystery of the Shemitah here:

http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/201...-the-shemitah/

I add the following from God's Word to show why the people were carried into exile by the Chaldeans:

"Then they burned the house of God, broke down the wall of Jerusalem, burned all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all its precious possessions. 20 And those who escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon, where they became servants to him and his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years" (2 Chronicles 36:19–21).

The exile lasted 70 years and they were taken into exile because they did not keep the Sabbaths. The came the prophecy of the Seventy Weeks through Daniel (in chapter 9) and it is made up of 70 x 7, or 490 years.

It seems Mr. Cahn is again putting his own spin on the Bible. I do not trust him. Warn people against him!

(All emphasis in this post is by myself.)

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Friedel

The exile lasted 70 years and they were taken into exile because they did not keep the Sabbaths. The came the prophecy of the Seventy Weeks through Daniel (in chapter 9) and it is made up of 70 x 7, or 490 years.

It seems Mr. Cahn is again putting his own spin on the Bible. I do not trust him. Warn people against him!

(All emphasis in this post is by myself.)

And whose "spin" are you "putting on the Bible"? Are you "spinning" David Watson's "spin"? Or, are you "spinning" for yourself?

Is not the Bible itself a compendium of men's interpretations of translations derived from the original Greek and/or Hebrew text?

Witness Lee used to "warn" us against reading anyone other than himself...his "spin". I trusted Lee until I didn't.

Why not warn people against taking Jonathan Cahn OR David Watson's "spin"? Why not encourage people to think for themselves, and search the scriptures for themselves? I read David Watson yesterday. There's another pretty good critique out there too.

Is your "warning" a scare tactic? Others on this forum are accusing Cahn of scare tactics. I'm just noticing a similarity.

Acts 17:11King James Version (KJV)
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/pr...mitah-revealed

Thanks Nell. Great rundown.

From the link:
"It is well known that, for the nation of Israel, every seventh day was called "the Sabbath." The Sabbath was unique among days. The Israelites were commanded to keep it separate and distinct from the other six days of the week. It was holy. It was the Lord's Day. On the Sabbath all regular work and all worldly endeavors were to cease. The Sabbath was the day of rest, to be devoted solely to the Lord."

So is God gonna judge all the Christians that don't keep the Sabbath and meet on the first day of the week? It is one of the 10 commandments.

Maybe Cahn is on to something, but failed to realize that God is coming after all these Christians that are failing to keep the Sabbath. And by so doing they have turned away from God by turning away from His commandment, and are bringing God down on America.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks Nell. Great rundown...

So is God gonna judge all the Christians that don't keep the Sabbath and meet on the first day of the week? It is one of the 10 commandments.

Don't ask me. Ask Him.

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe Cahn is on to something, but failed to realize that God is coming after all these Christians that are failing to keep the Sabbath.

I'm not sure that's the take away from this. David Watson is right that we are not under the Old Testament law. I don't think that's Cahn's message.

The mystery is in the history. (Nice huh?) There are historical events that have taken place related to judgment and restoration which correspond to the Shemitah, or the Sabbath, seven days, seven years, etc., as though God IS keeping the schedule he established in the OT.

Wanna know my theory? I think if God wanted to keep a schedule of "that which is to come" on a seven-day, seven-year, fifty-year cycle, according to the Shemitah or Sabbath or whatever, I think he gets to do it. He doesn't need permission.

I don't think God has committed himself to the wisdom of men (like us) who sit around and bloviate as authorities on the subject...as though they actually know what they're talking about.

The New Testament doesn't command us to keep the Sabbath. True. Does God keep the Sabbath? The Shemitah? Maybe. Historically speaking, there is evidence that he kinda' likes it.

Nell

blo-vee-ate: to speak or write verbosely and windily

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

An entirely different religion? You read history. Where's the pure Christianity? The hermeneutic Cahn is using sees Christ in rabbinical teaching. Where have I seen that done before? Oh, that's right, in the New Testament. Can't get much more Christian than that. And you can't get much more world mythological than Golgotha as the axis mundi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi

Sure we may disagree with his politics and his reading of American history, but this guy is bringing some new fire to Christianity. Don't you agree? Or maybe that's the problem. And, he raises questions about the use of creative imagination in prophesy which have already been asked by people like Walter Breuggemann about prophesy in general. But, you're wise to about do the research and use critical thinking to evaluate his propositions and I appreciate the link.

I agree that he certainly is bringing new fire to Christianity but if you take the political out of Cahn’s Breakfast speech you are not left with much. While I think it is prudent to follow up on his involvement with the Kabballah issue the political overtones are the most prominent as I explain below.

I went over the Inaugural Breakfast speech by Cahn in January 2013 again. Cahn states, “In ancient times, there was a nation known as the kingdom of Israel. It had been founded on God’s word, dedicated to His will, and consecrated to His purposes…They abandoned the ways of God, the laws of God, the standards of God for immorality.”

He goes on to say, “But there was another civilization that was likewise founded on God’s word, dedicated to His will, and consecrated to His purpose, from its very inception—America. He then goes on about how America has befallen to the same sad state of affairs as Israel back in the day.

First, Cahn is rewriting the US history. Our country was founded on democratic principles and values and not on God’s word. We are a nation of laws with three branches of government. Second, the Israel Cahn was talking about was a theocracy (a term used by Josephus for the kingdoms of Israel and Judah). They only became a democracy over the last 60+ years. The God of Israel according to the Bible murdered men, women and innocent children throughout the OT. Because we live in a democracy people like Cahn have the right to speak at a Presidential Breakfast. I wouldn’t have it any other way because in Nazi Germany they took the rights of people away after Hitler led them into nationalism and totalitarianism with his strident speeches. He killed democracy.

The US has certainly gone through a lot of changes and changes cause anxiety which should for Christians result in prayer. I remember back in 1967 hitch-hiking to my parents in N.C. when I stopped along the way and there were separate bathrooms for blacks and whites even though the Civil Rights Act was passed by Congress in 1964. People quoted the Bible in an effort to justify discrimination and beatings/hangings in the South. People today quote the Bible to justify all kinds of things and actions. I do not want a theocracy!

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Nell

Why not warn people against taking Jonathan Cahn OR David Watson's "spin"? Why not encourage people to think for themselves, and search the scriptures for themselves? I read David Watson yesterday. There's another pretty good critique out there too.

Is your "warning" a scare tactic? Others on this forum are accusing Cahn of scare tactics. I'm just noticing a similarity.

I have posted several long posts today on Jonathan Cahn. And, you know what, I wrote them with YOU in mind; to encourage you to think for yourself since I have gained the impression you are intelligent and sincere about the Lord. I have never posted anything about Cahn with any malice intended for any member of this forum.

I really do not care about what you think of me. Yes, you have ignored me several times in the past when I posted things about Cahn that you really should have picked up on.

It is not necessary to attack my person. I can take it but I can also say I have not attacked you ONCE over Jonathan Cahn even though you are the poster girl for Cahn's writings on this forum. Instead, I posted several things for you – yes, Nell, you – to pick up.

So I will stop here and step back. No more Cahn.

We can rather talk about the Rangers or Shoeless Joe Jackson or the World Series. Let Jonathan Cahn remain on the back burner.

Do you think the Orioles will win this year? It has been a long time.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

How long it applies? That question can be rephrased “When did it stop ‘applying’?” If indeed it did..."stop applying".

This presumes that the real question is not "to whom did this apply?" And, in addition, then ask "is there a basis to apply it to anyone else?"

Cahn would say "yes." But he says yes because he seems to presume that it is simply so. He does not provide any basis that I have been able to ascertain that makes his "yes" anything but a fantasy.

This is where everything seems to go off the rails. The fact that it was said to Israel seems to be presumed to be either a general command to all nations (whether or not they even acknowledge God a lot, a little, or none at all), or to certain nations who manage to get themselves a covenant with God like Israel had.

And as God did not state that the whole earth should leave their fields fallow every 7th year, it would seem that it was initially only applicable to Israel.

So we are back to the question of whether a man, a group of men, or even a large number of the general population of a secular nation can do anything that creates a covenant with God like was made between God and Israel.

[OBW]

First, a quote from the prayer breakfast:

How does judgment come to a nation? After defying all of God’s calls and warnings, the nation of Israel would experience something unprecedented. It was the opening stage of judgment. God removed one of Israel’s blessings. Years before the nation’s destruction, He allowed its hedge of protection to be lifted. He allowed an enemy to make a strike into the land. It was a wake-up call to avert national destruction. Nothing else would reach them. The strike was limited and temporary. The nation was now given a period of time to turn back to God or enter into judgment.

When was the first attack from the outside? In the book of Judges? Is that what he is talking about? I wonder.

But the real question that remains is how is the nation to return to God? If the society as a whole has become more secular and less Christian, how can the efforts of the Christians change the state of the nation? Unlike Israel, there is no law that would require the life of an abortion clinic doctor. Or that of an active homosexual. So we are completely unable to make the problems go away.

Maybe if we influence the legislative system enough that abortions are once again outlawed. And homosexual activities are once again outlawed, and those who practice them are not a protected group in other laws.

And how do we do that? By simply praying? And if we cannot pray enough to move God’s hand to cause the legislators to pass the laws and the president and governors to sign those laws into being, then what?

Do we start to have loud protest rallies in Washington in opposition to all these moral evils?

All while trying to convince the world around us (us Christians, not us Americans) that we really love everyone as we do ourselves?

Someone, with a straight face, come up with a way that everything that would be required for this so-called blessing to return (under the premise that it was ever there and was the result of the speech of GW upon his inauguration and bound us to a Israel-like covenant). How does simply having the Christians pay accomplish this? By causing God to make the heathen do better so that the blessing will return? Or are we suggesting that a minority Christian population can save the blessing of the nation by being more righteous tomorrow than they were today or yesterday (no matter how little the overall complexion of the nation actually changes)?

Only in that last scenario is the call by Cahn even remotely sane. But since I am pretty sure that it is not about that, then it must be about getting all of us stirred up to demand, as a “Christian block” (moral majority or whatever the flavor of the month name is) that the government quit being immoral and forcing immorality on us.

And that is the scenario in which the whole thing is extremely political.

And extremely prejudicial to the testimony of the church as the body of Christ, the hands and feet of God on earth living among the world shining into the lives of people who realize that he (through us) loves them.

Meanwhile, it seems that people trying to get the so-called blessing back are just in it for themselves. It sure isn't for the glory of God. And Cahn doesn't care as long as he sells enough books. So much so that he is suing those who disagree. Who try to expose his nonsense.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

And as God did not state that the whole earth should leave their fields fallow every 7th year, it would seem that it was initially only applicable to Israel.

Shemitah is about agriculture and forgiving of debts.

America is being judged because of Obama. Cuz he's cutting back on the program of paying farmers to let their land lay fallow.

And don't expect agribusiness to honor Shemitah. They don't care about the land being exhausted of nutrients. They just add the needed fertilizers.

And forget about forgiving of debts. That's never gonna happen. Even the Jewish bankers aren't gonna do that.

This is modernity. We no longer live by rules from the bronze and Iron age. We're smarter than that.

And we're pretty much feeding over 7 billion people. So God isn't judging us very much.

In fact, given the population explosion, it looks to me like God is out of the judging business.

But no harm done by Cahn. It's harmless. God ain't gonna do anything. Oct 1, 2015 will pass just like all the other predictions of doom.

And then there will be new doomsayers, to fleece the sheep. And the sheep will say Baa, Baa ... and hand over their money.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

Shemitah is about agriculture and forgiving of debts.

Interesting, but off topic. If you go back to Thankful Jane's original post it was about Cahn's talk at the Inaugural Breakfast and how she had gone through a lot and then she and her husband saw the video of the Inaugural Breakfast, they both were emotionally moved, they both wept and it changed their outlook. Now my last post was a response to that original post of Jane's. I think the Harbinger and Shemitah got us all off topic. Maybe you can bring us back online.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

I agree that he certainly is bringing new fire to Christianity but if you take the political out of Cahn’s Breakfast speech you are not left with much. While I think it is prudent to follow up on his involvement with the Kabballah issue the political overtones are the most prominent as I explain below.

I went over the Inaugural Breakfast speech by Cahn in January 2013 again. Cahn states, “In ancient times, there was a nation known as the kingdom of Israel. It had been founded on God’s word, dedicated to His will, and consecrated to His purposes…They abandoned the ways of God, the laws of God, the standards of God for immorality.”

He goes on to say, “But there was another civilization that was likewise founded on God’s word, dedicated to His will, and consecrated to His purpose, from its very inception—America. He then goes on about how America has befallen to the same sad state of affairs as Israel back in the day.

First, Cahn is rewriting the US history. Our country was founded on democratic principles and values and not on God’s word. We are a nation of laws with three branches of government. Second, the Israel Cahn was talking about was a theocracy (a term used by Josephus for the kingdoms of Israel and Judah). They only became a democracy over the last 60+ years. The God of Israel according to the Bible murdered men, women and innocent children throughout the OT. Because we live in a democracy people like Cahn have the right to speak at a Presidential Breakfast. I wouldn’t have it any other way because in Nazi Germany they took the rights of people away after Hitler led them into nationalism and totalitarianism with his strident speeches. He killed democracy.

The US has certainly gone through a lot of changes and changes cause anxiety which should for Christians result in prayer. I remember back in 1967 hitch-hiking to my parents in N.C. when I stopped along the way and there were separate bathrooms for blacks and whites even though the Civil Rights Act was passed by Congress in 1964. People quoted the Bible in an effort to justify discrimination and beatings/hangings in the South. People today quote the Bible to justify all kinds of things and actions. I do not want a theocracy!

All of which I agree with, but which , apart from the factual differences about American history which I also agree with and are determinable, is just a long way of saying you disagree with the guy's politics, like I said below. You're preaching to the choir when you tell me this stuff. But, what makes that more than our political opinions? I already agreed about the historical part. Is that all there is? Is that enough? Hey, it could be argued that the country moved in a liberalizing direction in the past. What is to say that going in a conservative direction now would be somehow wrong? How do we know that we don't need a course correction as a nation? What exactly is God's political position? If someone actually has transcendent knowledge, then that individual or group of people should rule the country not democracy. Isn't that what the Christian Right is actually claiming they have--The Truth? Democracy is only best if the absolute truth is indeterminable. Since no one knows for sure the best way, we throw it open to a vote. Isn't that implied in what you are saying?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Friedel

I have posted several long posts today on Jonathan Cahn. And, you know what, I wrote them with YOU in mind; to encourage you to think for yourself since I have gained the impression you are intelligent and sincere about the Lord. I have never posted anything about Cahn with any malice intended for any member of this forum.

I really do not care about what you think of me. Yes, you have ignored me several times in the past when I posted things about Cahn that you really should have picked up on.

It is not necessary to attack my person. I can take it but I can also say I have not attacked you ONCE over Jonathan Cahn even though you are the poster girl for Cahn's writings on this forum. Instead, I posted several things for you – yes, Nell, you – to pick up.

So I will stop here and step back. No more Cahn.

We can rather talk about the Rangers or Shoeless Joe Jackson or the World Series. Let Jonathan Cahn remain on the back burner.

Do you think the Orioles will win this year? It has been a long time.

If you mean in the ALCS, the O's could win. Either AL team will have their hands full against either the Cards or the Giants in the World Series. The Cards broke our hearts in 2011 and I don't like the Giants.The Nats were my pick in the NL.

The Orioles have 6 or so former Rangers, which Ranger fans still love. Kansas City has been great fun to watch...very exciting...in the Division Series. The Rangers share their Spring Training facility in Surprise, AZ with KC. I could go either way. I will feel bad for whichever team loses and happy for the winner.

Friedel, while you haven't attacked me over Cahn, you attacked me over on the other forum a few years ago. I hesitate to respond to you for that reason. Bad memories. This thread is a constant beat-down, and I am always on the defensive, so I pick my battles. I can't possibly respond to the barrage of posts aimed at me so I picked awareness because he has been civil and respectful. You scare me. Sorry.

If you see my last response to you as an attack, that wasn't my intention. I believe my questions to be fair. Everyone has a "spin" on the Bible but you have a problem with Cahn's "spin". That was my point.

Let's suppose Cahn is totally wrong on every point. What's the worst case scenario? His message is repentance. Get clean. Get right with God. Wake up. That's where I am now. Look at each piece of the puzzle for the worst case scenario...what if Cahn is wrong on America? What's the worst case scenario? I've spent a few dollars on doing some reading. I've spent some time reading the Bible looking for the holes. I've discussed it with a few Christians. I'm constantly looking for holes.

But what if Cahn is right? Worst case? We'll know in about a year.

The message of the some of the gentlemen on this forum seems to be that Cahn is wrong and you all are right. Period. You all are delievering your message with authority...authority that none of us have. Some include ridicule, mockery and derision. In fact, none of us know. Not Cahn and not any of us. Only God knows and it would be unwise to speak for him. I think Cahn may be on to something but time will tell.

I'm just praying first of all, that i won't be deceived. Then, I pray that none of us will be deceived. I'm praying tht this isn't about Cahn. It's about me and my walk with the Lord. It's about the verse "When you see these things begin to take place, look up, for your redemption draws near." (Matt. 24:33)

Nell

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

All of which I agree with, but which , apart from the factual differences about American history which I also agree with and are determinable, is just a long way of saying you disagree with the guy's politics, like I said below. You're preaching to the choir when you tell me this stuff. But, what makes that more than our political opinions? I already agreed about the historical part. Is that all there is? Is that enough? Hey, it could be argued that the country moved in a liberalizing direction in the past. What is to say that going in a conservative direction now would be somehow wrong? How do we know that we don't need a course correction as a nation? What exactly is God's political position? If someone actually has transcendent knowledge, then that individual or group of people should rule the country not democracy. Isn't that what the Christian Right is actually claiming they have--The Truth? Democracy is only best if the absolute truth is indeterminable. Since no one knows for sure the best way, we throw it open to a vote. Isn't that implied in what you are saying?

It's true that if we democratically vote to become a theocracy we would become a theocracy. It would require changes in our constitution approved by all the states but we could change the way we manage our government. We could also vote to get rid of all those who disagree with our Biblical understanding of Jesus or the Bible e.g. ship them all to another country. We can change anything democratically if the people in this country decide to do so.

My primary point was that under our current constitution and form of government Cahn is incorrect in his Inaugural Speech in describing this nation as founded on the Word of God and the Bible. Sure, it might be nice if it was true but it just isn't true. It isn't a matter of disagreeing with his politics as much as disagreeing with the foundational language of his speech. The rest of his speech is based on this foundational language which as I have stated doesn't hold water.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Interesting, but off topic.

You are right. Jane doesn't mention Shemitah and neither does Cahn in his sermon. Shemitah is off topic on this thread. If Nell wants to discuss it she'll have to start another thread.

Sorry about that. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Dancing]

Originally Posted by Nell

If you see my last response to you as an attack, that wasn't my intention. I believe my questions to be fair. Everyone has a "spin" on the Bible but you have a problem with Cahn's "spin". That was my point.

Let's suppose Cahn is totally wrong on every point. What's the worst case scenario? His message is repentance. Get clean. Get right with God. Wake up. That's where I am now. Look at each piece of the puzzle for the worst case scenario...what if Cahn is wrong on America? What's the worst case scenario? I've spent a few dollars on doing some reading. I've spent some time reading the Bible looking for the holes. I've discussed it with a few Christians. I'm constantly looking for holes.

But what if Cahn is right? Worst case? We'll know in about a year.

The message of the some of the gentlemen on this forum seems to be that Cahn is wrong and you all are right. Period. You all are delievering your message with authority...authority that none of us have. Some include ridicule, mockery and derision. In fact, none of us know. Not Cahn and not any of us. Only God knows and it would be unwise to speak for him. I think Cahn may be on to something but time will tell.

I'm just praying first of all, that i won't be deceived. Then, I pray that none of us will be deceived. I'm praying tht this isn't about Cahn. It's about me and my walk with the Lord. It's about the verse "When you see these things begin to take place, look up, for your redemption draws near." (Matt. 24:33)

Nell

Thanks for that sober and honest word, Nell. I sense love as your motive, for both God and us.

I've also experienced "like apprehension" with some of the men on this post. God's message of repentance is Cahn's motive. Nothing to fear. Nothing to malign or scoff. Beware that you don't fit the description given by Jude:

"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit."

Rather, we SHOULD be doing this:

"But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." - Jde 1:1-25 KJV

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

You all are delievering your message with authority...authority that none of us have.

Ya got that right. Don't know about the others but I'm just an idiot. Howbeit it an idiot with eyeballs ... eyeballs that have seen this sort of stuff many times.

And yes, Cahn is harmless. His only harm is that he's making money off of selling Jesus. But he's a real firecracker, that's for sure. A real entertainer. Better than Comedy Central.

And the end of his sermon at the prayer breakfast is a hoot. He really gets hopped up ... works up a real lather ... reminds me of some of the local church meetings ... like the crazy one that got me booted out ... a real fist pumping vain popping frenzy.

And that's scarier than Friedel.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Let's suppose Cahn is totally wrong on every point. What's the worst case scenario? His message is repentance. Get clean. Get right with God. Wake up. That's where I am now. Look at each piece of the puzzle for the worst case scenario...what if Cahn is wrong on America? What's the worst case scenario? I've spent a few dollars on doing some reading. I've spent some time reading the Bible looking for the holes. I've discussed it with a few Christians. I'm constantly looking for holes.

Nell, you answered your own question incorrectly.

What's the worst case scenario?

The worst case is to see precious brothers and sisters get defrauded of their love for God, and become obsessed over future events. I know some who have become overly fascinated with Sabbaths, blood moons, Jewish calendars, and the law. There is a very real danger they are being brought to nought from Christ. Paul told the Galatians that he was afraid for them, since they had begun to celebrate days and weeks and months and years -- all a clear reference to bona fide Christians going backwards into Judaism.

Many have left the LC's only to have been enamored by those who wrongly use the OT to capture God's children by another gospel, rather than the unique way of faith patterned by the NT apostles.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, you answered your own question incorrectly.

What's the worst case scenario?

The worst case is to see precious brothers and sisters get defrauded of their love for God, and become obsessed over future events. I know some who have become overly fascinated with Sabbaths, blood moons, Jewish calendars, and the law. There is a very real danger they are being brought to nought from Christ. Paul told the Galatians that he was afraid for them, since they had begun to celebrate days and weeks and months and years -- all a clear reference to bona fide Christians going backwards into Judaism.

Many have left the LC's only to have been enamored by those who wrongly use the OT to capture God's children by another gospel, rather than the unique way of faith patterned by the NT apostles.

Ohio,

Do you think shutting Cahn down will insure that precious brothers and sisters will not get defrauded of their love for God? I also know some who are overly fascinated with all kinds of things. Will shutting down the voices fix that? Who do you shut down next? Who decides?

Shutting down the LC might fix a lot of things for a lot of people we love and care about. One thing we should take away from leaving that toxic environment is that we can't manage what other people hear, see, believe, trust, hope, ... on and on.

We speak the truth and trust the hearing of others to God. Pray for the people you love. That's the best we can do and that's not a bad solution. We can't manufacture an environment where the faith of men will not be challenged. We can't regulate what men hear. We've been there.

Who among us has the authority or wisdom to control what people hear and don't hear? We have a God who is able to take care of his children.

Nell

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, you answered your own question incorrectly.

What's the worst case scenario?

The worst case is to see precious brothers and sisters get defrauded of their love for God, and become obsessed over future events. I know some who have become overly fascinated with Sabbaths, blood moons, Jewish calendars, and the law. There is a very real danger they are being brought to nought from Christ. Paul told the Galatians that he was afraid for them, since they had begun to celebrate days and weeks and months and years -- all a clear reference to bona fide Christians going backwards into Judaism.

Many have left the LC's only to have been enamored by those who wrongly use the OT to capture God's children by another gospel, rather than the unique way of faith patterned by the NT apostles.

I don't know about you but I missed the rapture in 1988. Did you ever read this book by Edgar Whisenant?:
88 reasons Why The Rapture Will Be in 1988: The Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hash-Ana)
Do you know that he sold 2 million copies and people were very serious about this. This was not taken lightly and some people sold everything. Whisenant was a NASA engineer who had studied the Bible and came up with 88 reasons why it was going to happen in 1988. He quotes extensively from the Bible to arrive at his conclusions. He saw Israel as the fig tree (Israel became a nation in 1948 and he added "this generation will not pass away" after Israel became a nation with a generation as 40 years) quoted by Jesus in Luke 21 (“Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. As soon as they come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and know that the summer is already near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near.") and used that as his basis for 88 reasons why the Rapture would take place in 1988.

In all likelihood we have missed hundreds that have been predicted so I think Ohio has it right.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

It's true that if we democratically vote to become a theocracy we would become a theocracy. It would require changes in our constitution approved by all the states but we could change the way we manage our government. We could also vote to get rid of all those who disagree with our Biblical understanding of Jesus or the Bible e.g. ship them all to another country. We can change anything democratically if the people in this country decide to do so.

My primary point was that under our current constitution and form of government Cahn is incorrect in his Inaugural Speech in describing this nation as founded on the Word of God and the Bible. Sure, it might be nice if it was true but it just isn't true. It isn't a matter of disagreeing with his politics as much as disagreeing with the foundational language of his speech. The rest of his speech is based on this foundational language which as I have stated doesn't hold water.

I agree. Cahn was wrong about American history. His misreading of American history suggests that his view is incompatible with our democratic history. I remember being in Local Church prayer meetings where we prayed against the US Congress. Local church values were only compatible with democracy insofar as it favored the interests of the Local Churches which of course we viewed as the interests of God. This is by no means always the case among Christians. Thousands of protesters took to the streets of Hong Kong in the past two weeks, demanding democracy and grabbing global attention. Many of the leaders are Christian, and some cite faith as an inspiration. When Hong Kong's Occupy Central group first announced last year it was planning pro-democracy demonstrations, it did so in a church. The group's full name is Occupy Central with Love and Peace, in the Christian spirit, and its top leaders include a minister and a law professor who is also Christian. Of course, in this case, democracy would be more favorable to Christian interests than communism which is generally anti-religion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

Do you think shutting Cahn down will insure that precious brothers and sisters will not get defrauded of their love for God? I also know some who are overly fascinated with all kinds of things. Will shutting down the voices fix that? Who do you shut down next? Who decides?

Shutting down the LC might fix a lot of things for a lot of people we love and care about. One thing we should take away from leaving that toxic environment is that we can't manage what other people hear, see, believe, trust, hope, ... on and on.

We speak the truth and trust the hearing of others to God. Pray for the people you love. That's the best we can do and that's not a bad solution. We can't manufacture an environment where the faith of men will not be challenged. We can't regulate what men hear. We've been there.

Who among us has the authority or wisdom to control what people hear and don't hear? We have a God who is able to take care of his children.

Nell

Nell, I'm not for "shutting anyone down." Don't forget this IS America.

If you recall, I'm one of the few here on the forum who do not admonish all current members to "run from that cult." For some folks, it is best to stay in that denomination.

I only commented on your rhetorical question about the "worse case scenario," and made a general observation about numerous ex-LCers who have mistakenly gone back to some OT variant.

Only UntoHim "has the authority or wisdom to control what people hear and don't hear"on this forum.

Peace. Don't get so upset when others give a little pushback.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell, I'm not for "shutting anyone down." Don't forget this IS America.

If you recall, I'm one of the few here on the forum who do not admonish all current members to "run from that cult." For some folks, it is best to stay in that denomination.

I only commented on your rhetorical question about the "worse case scenario," and made a general observation about numerous ex-LCers who have mistakenly gone back to some OT variant.

Only UntoHim "has the authority or wisdom to control what people hear and don't hear"on this forum.

Peace. Don't get so upset when others give a little pushback.

Sorry I misunderstood you. I'm not upset.

Nell

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Nell

But what if Cahn is right? Worst case? We'll know in about a year.

Why do you want to wait a year to see if Cahn is wrong? He is wrong now and he will be wrong in a year's time.

Hope that doesn't scare you …

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

Do you think shutting Cahn down will insure that precious brothers and sisters will not get defrauded of their love for God? I also know some who are overly fascinated with all kinds of things. Will shutting down the voices fix that? Who do you shut down next? Who decides?

Of course not. But revealing the serious error will help deter those who would be ensnared by this one particular distraction.

The question seems to be based upon one of two assumptions. The first is that since there are many ways to get distracted and defrauded from our love for God, we should just ignore them all and hope we are not ourselves caught up in one of those. The other is that people who think they see an error should just keep silent while the errors are allowed to run their course without challenge.

In other words, rather than speaking out against an error — not trying to silence the error, but expose it — we should be silent. Seems that the ones being silenced are those who would have any reason to question the position of the ones you claim we are trying to silence.

Yes, I have cast Cahn's teachings as an error. And it is possible (despite my doubts) that I am not correct on this. But you don't discover whether Cahn or I (and others) are right by simply silencing one side. Our goal is not to silence Cahn. It is to expose it as false. If our position is true, and that message gets out, Cahn is not silenced, but the impact of his message is greatly diminished. But rather than hear the complaint, seems his followers would rather that we be silent and just leave it alone.

Who is trying to silence who?

Originally Posted by Nell

We speak the truth and trust the hearing of others to God. Pray for the people you love. That's the best we can do and that's not a bad solution. We can't manufacture an environment where the faith of men will not be challenged. We can't regulate what men hear. We've been there.

This is true on both sides.

But for all of us, the best we can really say is that "we speak what we understand to be the truth." That is true for all of us, including me.

Some complain about my lack of quoting scripture in my comments, positions, and responses. But does anyone actually not understand the scriptural basis (or lack thereof) of whatever it is I say?

For example, someone (not you) asked for verses about something recently. Might not have been about Cahn, but was related in that it was within the context of how to read the OT promises and covenants. It would seem that I need to provide a verse that directs that any particular OT statement is or is not relevant to today as a literal promise or principle. With rare exception, there is no such statement within the OT or NT on the subject. Yet there is fairly consistent thought on a lot of such things without the inclusion of any verse specifically making such a statement.

But then someone comes along and insists that certain things are for today. Or are about America. Why? Because there is a verse that makes it so? Or why not? Because there is a verse that makes it so?

The answer to both is generally "no." But that does not make either position simply open season. The lack of a spoken limitation does not prove no limitation. And the lack of a spoken extension does not prove no extension. But the manner, time, context, words, etc., contained in what we do see is instructive. As is the manner in which other things are not included.

So let's take a look at the covenant with Israel. God did not put a general challenge out for any nation to sign up for special benefits and blessings. And the children of Israel did not decide that they did not like their current surroundings, so they did an ancient "one of by land and two if by sea" and left Egypt to create their own nation, and then while making their way back to the land that their ancestors came from stopped near a mountain and made some speeches and called upon God to accept them as the first (and only) nation to accept the challenge.

No. Long before Egypt. Before the Red Sea. Before the giving of the law. God chose Abraham. He singled him out and declared that he would bring about his salvation for all people through his descendants. As a result, Abraham moved west and lived in a new land. Now some centuries later, his offspring have become numerous. And they are now leaving subjugation in Egypt. They are the beginning of their own nation. And God comes to them on the mountain, speaking to their leader, Moses, to establish this covenant that was not offered to any other country around them. (He did eventually say that there would be blessing on those who helped them along the way, but no offer of a similar deal.) But there were conditions.

We know the rest. So what part of that story is rationally understood to suggest that any nation stepping up to "dedicate" itself to God can step into the shoes of Israel in terms of receiving similar blessings, and with it, similar threats of retribution for failure to keep at it?

There is no verse that specifically states that you can or you can't. But the narrative concerning Israel suggests that it is not the volition of Israel that made it happen, but the volition of God to continue the Abrahamic covenant and move forward through the offspring that he promised Abraham with the continued goal of blessing the nations.

So what are we to do with this?

Pray for the "return" of the nation to God? To be able to enjoy divine benefits?

Pray that we, the Christians who are the church, be better image bearers of Christ and better love our God, our neighbor, and each other, and through this show the world that God sent Jesus. Bring light into darkness. Be salt and light, not in our rhetoric about everyone's sins, but in our living as people with changed lives.

The latter was always our charge. I am having a hard time seeing that America could ever have received (or apparently been able to effectively demand) special blessings from God because its Christian sub-population did what was commanded of it.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

I agree. Cahn was wrong about American history. His misreading of American history suggests that his view is incompatible with our democratic history. I remember being in Local Church prayer meetings where we prayed against the US Congress. Local church values were only compatible with democracy insofar as it favored the interests of the Local Churches which of course we viewed as the interests of God. This is by no means always the case among Christians. Thousands of protesters took to the streets of Hong Kong in the past two weeks, demanding democracy and grabbing global attention. Many of the leaders are Christian, and some cite faith as an inspiration. When Hong Kong's Occupy Central group first announced last year it was planning pro-democracy demonstrations, it did so in a church. The group's full name is Occupy Central with Love and Peace, in the Christian spirit, and its top leaders include a minister and a law professor who is also Christian. Of course, in this case, democracy would be more favorable to Christian interests than communism which is generally anti-religion.

You bring up a very interesting thought. In the Cambridge Platform of 1648 (frequently cited in congregational churches even today) which was both a declaration of independence and an ecclesiastical constitution, adopted well over a century before the corresponding political documents that marked the founding of the US. The Platform established a non-hierarchical congregational polity, meaning that churches would be independent both of outside authority and of each other. The framers of the Platform continuously referenced the Bible as their authority, which makes the Bible a foundational document of the polity of many congregational faiths shaped by Puritanism. English Puritans had tried for decades before the "Great Migration" in 1620 to the US to reform the Church of England in the direction of a more personally experienced spirituality. It didn't work and they were persecuted and that is why they came to the states (New England) in 1620.

Without providing any further background regarding the Platform it is well to note that congregational Puritan churches were democratic in function. Their leaders were elected by the congregations and the congregations established a covenant with one another to "walk together".

A large part of the problem with the local churches was/is the process of establishing elders and the fact that essentially LCs eschewed the idea of democracy within their churches and they are not covenantal. I think this is bleeding over into the reason for some of those who have left, looking for a "leader" (e.g. Lee and now Cahn) who can tell them what to do rather than look to others for shared responsibilities within their churches. Those who continue in the LC have the same problem and, thus, the emergence of the Blended Brothers etc. Most churches today are not "democratic" and don't follow the Platform's outline of congregational processes e.g. Catholic, Anglicans, Local Churches of Witness Lee etc. Also, part of the reason that some people/churches don't like "democracy" is because it is messy and requires accountability and responsibility. Of course, it is not for everyone but I prefer it to a theocracy or a totalitarian form of government in our churches and in our country.

I thought in the beginning that the "local" churches were just that, local, but in fact they were tied into a controlling network and we were never "local".

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

You are right. Jane doesn't mention Shemitah and neither does Cahn in his sermon. Shemitah is off topic on this thread. If Nell wants to discuss it she'll have to start another thread.

Sorry about that. Thanks for pointing it out.

No need to apologize. I was the one who originally brought it up on this thread. It just so happened that Nell was reading the book and it took off. Later when I reread Jane's thread I realized it wasn't part of the thread and Cahn didn't mention it although it is one of his books and it follows along the lines of Harbinger.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

You bring up a very interesting thought. In the Cambridge Platform of 1648 (frequently cited in congregational churches even today) which was both a declaration of independence and an ecclesiastical constitution, adopted well over a century before the corresponding political documents that marked the founding of the US. The Platform established a non-hierarchical congregational polity, meaning that churches would be independent both of outside authority and of each other. The framers of the Platform continuously referenced the Bible as their authority, which makes the Bible a foundational document of the polity of many congregational faiths shaped by Puritanism. English Puritans had tried for decades before the "Great Migration" in 1620 to the US to reform the Church of England in the direction of a more personally experienced spirituality. It didn't work and they were persecuted and that is why they came to the states (New England) in 1620.

Without providing any further background regarding the Platform it is well to note that congregational Puritan churches were democratic in function. Their leaders were elected by the congregations and the congregations established a covenant with one another to "walk together".

A large part of the problem with the local churches was/is the process of establishing elders and the fact that essentially LCs eschewed the idea of democracy within their churches and they are not covenantal. I think this is bleeding over into the reason for some of those who have left, looking for a "leader" (e.g. Lee and now Cahn) who can tell them what to do rather than look to others for shared responsibilities within their churches. Those who continue in the LC have the same problem and, thus, the emergence of the Blended Brothers etc. Most churches today are not "democratic" and don't follow the Platform's outline of congregational processes e.g. Catholic, Anglicans, Local Churches of Witness Lee etc. Also, part of the reason that some people/churches don't like "democracy" is because it is messy and requires accountability and responsibility. Of course, it is not for everyone but I prefer it to a theocracy or a totalitarian form of government in our churches and in our country.

I thought in the beginning that the "local" churches were just that, local, but in fact they were tied into a controlling network and we were never "local".

Right. You shared with me about the ground of locality before I ever came to a meeting. I was excited about the possibility of Christian unity based on a simple New Testament principle. But I was in for disappointment after disappointment when the leaders from Witness Lee on down violated the principle at least as I understood it. Of course, there was never even pretense of democracy in the local churches. In The Elders' Management of the Church Witness Lee says,

Those elders who are the authority should also learn to fear the Lord, to be without preconceptions, prejudice, or bias, and to listen to this fellowship and to touch the brothers' feelings. After they have sensed the intention of the Holy Spirit, those who are the authority can make the decision and can announce that the matter should be taken care of in a certain way. If they do this, the result will not be democracy or autocracy, but will be something that issues from the Holy Spirit.

What prevents that from becoming autocracy in the name of the Holy Spirit? Nothing. In Leadership in the New Testament,Lee explains:

God's government is neither autocracy nor democracy, but theocracy. Autocracy is dictatorship, and democracy is government by the people. Humanly speaking, democracy is wonderful, but to bring democracy into the church brings in the opinions of the people. This is like the church in Laodicea in Revelation 3. The word Laodicea in Greek means "the opinion of the people." In the United States government, congressmen and senators represent the states to express the people's opinion. God's government in the church is not like this. God's government in the church is theocratic.

Theocracy is 100% spiritual according to Lee. It come totally through the elders with no voting, no representation and no checks or balances. Perhaps Lee learned to distrust democracy from Watchman Nee. In Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 3) Vol. 61: Matured Leadings in the Lord's Recovery (1) Nee teaches:

Today there are two kinds of systems in the world. One is capitalism, and the other is communism. Capitalism protects private ownership; everyone can accumulate wealth for himself. Communism practices the sharing of all things in common. No one has any private possessions, and everyone gives up everything for the good of the state. The communist way appears to be similar to the Christian way, but it does not have the life of God, and it is not easy to carry out this practice. D. M. Panton wrote about democracy and socialism in one of his expositional writings. In the image in Daniel, the ten toes are made of iron and clay. Panton interpreted the iron as referring to dictatorship which will "stiffen up" to become fascism. The clay refers to democracy which will degenerate into communism. Therefore, clay refers to the communist party today. Since the time of Martin Luther, the Brethren have been the champions of orthodox interpretations of the image in Daniel, telling us that iron refers to dictatorship while clay refers to democracy. Prior to the Brethren, interpretations on the iron and clay focused on the incompatibility of the mixture. Other teachers emphasized their interrelatedness. For example, G. H. Lang said that dictatorship brings in democracy, while democracy in turn creates dictatorship. The clay of democracy is too weak to meet the challenges of crises, and so power goes to the hand of a few or even one person. The result is a fascist dictatorship or communist autocracy. An example of the former is Napoleon during the French Revolution, and an example of the latter is the Soviet Union which evolved into communism from the instability of democracy. Mr. Panton is the first person to interpret clay to mean communism. Communism extols sharing all things in common. Karl Marx borrowed this concept from Acts. It would be a shame to Christians if one day the communists would turn around to teach Christians about sharing all things in common, selling everything and distributing to everyone according to his need. A proper Christian does not accumulate riches for himself; rather, he forsakes everything to take the Christian confession as his primary profession.

Nee's teaching on church government was similar to but less equivocal than Lee's. He states:

The way to conduct business in the church is not by dictatorship. Neither is it by representation or democracy. Decisions in the church are not arrived at through voting or the consensus of a few. Rather the responsible brothers make the decisions. But the responsible brothers must see to it that in spiritual matters, there is the order of spiritual leadership. In the church there is no democracy and there is no dictatorship. (Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 3) Vol. 62: Matured Leadings in the Lord's Recovery (2), Chapter 15, Section 4)

It's the responsible brothers that make the decisions. Sure their supposed to be guided by the spirit, but whether they are or not it's the responsible brothers who make the decisions.

In Life-Study of Revelation, Chapter 41, Section 4, Lee noted:

The entire world today is looking for a strong leader. Although this is the age of democracy, many are tired of the shortcomings of democracy and are looking for strong leadership.

Of course, he predicted that the world would find that leader in the Anti-Christ, but as far as the local churches were concerned, he tried to be that strong leader himself, with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit, of course.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

It just so happened that Nell was reading the book and it took off. Later when I reread Jane's thread I realized it wasn't part of the thread and Cahn didn't mention it although it is one of his books and it follows along the lines of Harbinger.

Jane was vague in her OP.

But come to think about it, Nell may know more than we do, and may know what she (Jane) was talking about, and her intentions in presenting the Cahn video.

Where's Thankful Jane? She could clear this up.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by awareness

Shemitah is off topic on this thread. If Nell wants to discuss it she'll have to start another thread.

NO! Please … no. We need much, much less of Cahn; not one iota more.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

You shared with me about the ground of locality before I ever came to a meeting. I was excited about the possibility of Christian unity based on a simple New Testament principle. But I was in for disappointment after disappointment when the leaders from Witness Lee on down violated the principle at least as I understood it. Of course, there was never even pretense of democracy in the local churches.

zeek, well presented with many relevant sources. In the end, the theocratic government in the LCs was their undoing. There were no checks and balances and the LCs ran amuck. However, there is this thought from former members of the LC that it was because of Phillip Lee, his behavior or the way WL let him run the LSM...or other actions by WL. I haven't heard anyone state that it may have been their form of church government which may have opened the door to the problems in the LCs. Also, I think anyone who was involved in South Florida would agree that the leader in South Florida was not "spiritual" but his authority was directly from WL and this led to so many problems there. Also, I don't think it is clear as to the real reasons why WL left Tawain to come to the US but we know in part that it was related to the authority issue.

The implications from Cahn's message are troubling primarily because he is presupposing something that seems to resonate with a certain group of Christians from the LCs i.e. the US was founded on the Word of God and the US is going to hades in a hand basket...and the US needs to get back to theocracy and the rule of the Word of God over our government. To me, this is subjugating our personal individual spiritual responsibility and accountability but was reflecting in the way the LCs were governed as zeek pointed out.

If there is to be renewal it should be grass roots which is the way the NT developed, the history of the Great Awakenings and it is also the way it is/has developed in South America and other parts of the world. Of course, Cahn gave this message in January 2013 and I don't know the impact of his message other than a couple books he has published. Have things changed since he spoke? In the end, it resonated with Jane but it just didn't do anything for me.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

The implications from Cahn's message are troubling primarily because he is presupposing something that seems to resonate with a certain group of Christians from the LCs i.e. the US was founded on the Word of God and the US is going to hades in a hand basket...and the US needs to get back to theocracy and the rule of the Word of God over our government.

I've made light of Cahn's prediction. Saying, it was harmless cuz it would just come and go. And that's so.

But Cahn's push for a theocracy is not innocent, and not harmless. This is revealed in Cahn and Sid Roth's association with the New Apostolic Reformation movement. A Christian Dominionist movement that seeks to establish Old Testament law in America ... or in other words, a stone the sinner theocracy.

And that's scary. Very, very scary.

And by the way, the master American founding history revisionist, David Barton, of Wallbuilder fame, where Cahn comes by his stupid notion that America was founded on Christ, is of The New Apostolic Reformation Movement, as well as is Rick Perry, governor of Texas, as revealed by sitting next to the NAR in his 2011 prayer for rain at Reliant Stadium.

[Nell]

"In its first and original context the Shemita is connected to Israel. It is the only nation commanded to observe it. And, as we have seen, it is still kept in varying degrees by the observants of that nation. But we are not dealing here with the Shemitah as an observant, but as a prophetic sign--particularly as a warning or manifestation of national judgment."
The Mystery of the Shemitah, p. 55, Jonathan Cahn

"There is ... no stage or platform on earth so well suited for the manifesting of the mystery of the Shemitah as America. Is the Isreal connection necessary for the mystery to manifest? No. It could manifest to any nation, just as God could send a warning of national judgment to any nation. No unique connection to ancient Israel is needed for America to be given a biblical sign of national judgment." The Mystery of the Shemitah, p. 58, Jonathan Cahn

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

"In its first and original context the Shemita is connected to Israel. It is the only nation commanded to observe it. And, as we have seen, it is still kept in varying degrees by the observants of that nation. But we are not dealing here with the Shemitah as an observant, but as a prophetic sign--particularly as a warning or manifestation of national judgment."
The Mystery of the Shemitah, p. 55, Jonathan Cahn

"There is ... no stage or platform on earth so well suited for the manifesting of the mystery of the Shemitah as America. Is the Isreal connection necessary for the mystery to manifest? No. It could manifest to any nation, just as God could send a warning of national judgment to any nation. No unique connection to ancient Israel is needed for America to be given a biblical sign of national judgment." The Mystery of the Shemitah, p. 58, Jonathan Cahn

The "coulds" and "mights" are more that evident.

And just like finding a sycamore tree in an area where such are sometimes found is possible, so is the possibility that something "could" happen.

The problem, and one that I have mentioned over and over is the leap from "the first and original" to "as a prophetic sign." There needs to be more than a desire for it to be true for it to be true. The bible has never been primarily a code book for such study. Except according to people who have nothing better to do than create myths and endless genealogies.

And I thought Lee had us bamboozled. This guy reads some verses, declares that it is prophetic about America, and cherry-picks events that are claimed to fit the prophecies. Of course there are a few left un-fulfilled. So you have to buy his book to learn more about it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

And I thought Lee had us bamboozled. This guy reads some verses, declares that it is prophetic about America, and cherry-picks events that are claimed to fit the prophecies.

I've been under the weather, not felling good. So yesterday I watched a bunch of Cahn on youtube.

And it became very clear to me that Jonathan Cahn is a seer. But a seer of things that aren't there.

And in the interviews, the host, like Pat Robertson for example, goes all gushy and gooey, like they've never seen such things before ; that Cahn is introducing something brand new.

So 2000 yrs have passed, and suddenly someone like Cahn, and Lee BTW, comes up with something no one has ever seen before.

And some Christians, who must need their doubts assuaged, go all goo goo ga ga for it.

[awareness]

Cahns' Jesus :



A picture is worth a thousand words.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

Cahns' Jesus :

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That is a scary picture.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

zeek, well presented with many relevant sources. In the end, the theocratic government in the LCs was their undoing. There were no checks and balances and the LCs ran amuck. However, there is this thought from former members of the LC that it was because of Phillip Lee, his behavior or the way WL let him run the LSM...or other actions by WL. I haven't heard anyone state that it may have been their form of church government which may have opened the door to the problems in the LCs. Also, I think anyone who was involved in South Florida would agree that the leader in South Florida was not "spiritual" but his authority was directly from WL and this led to so many problems there. Also, I don't think it is clear as to the real reasons why WL left Tawain to come to the US but we know in part that it was related to the authority issue.

The implications from Cahn's message are troubling primarily because he is presupposing something that seems to resonate with a certain group of Christians from the LCs i.e. the US was founded on the Word of God and the US is going to hades in a hand basket...and the US needs to get back to theocracy and the rule of the Word of God over our government. To me, this is subjugating our personal individual spiritual responsibility and accountability but was reflecting in the way the LCs were governed as zeek pointed out.

If there is to be renewal it should be grass roots which is the way the NT developed, the history of the Great Awakenings and it is also the way it is/has developed in South America and other parts of the world. Of course, Cahn gave this message in January 2013 and I don't know the impact of his message other than a couple books he has published. Have things changed since he spoke? In the end, it resonated with Jane but it just didn't do anything for me.

Sadly Watchman Nee and Witness Lee had little direct experience of democracy before Lee came to the United States. Nee's prognosis of the inevitable democratic failure mirrors the struggle of Sun Yat-sen to establish a democratic republic of China. But, Sun Yat-sen's dream was never fully realized and the Communists took over. So, Nee and Lee may be excused for their ignorance. We, on the other hand, should know better. If Cahn's aim is to transform the U.S. into a theocracy, we can look back at our Local Church experience as evidence of what a bad idea that is. His argument is based on the lie that the U.S. was a Christian nation to begin with. Thus, it is based on a false premise. The whole idea that we should roll back history to the New Testament in order to recapitulate the "Church Life" or role back the American experience to recapitulate the nation of Israel ignores the progress in political thinking that resulted in the establishment of our nation as a democratic republic. We took our freedoms so much for granted that we forsook them to get involved in the Local Church-- a top-down authoritarian organization where we had no rights. Our LC experience ought to be enough to motivate us to reject the peddlers of American Theocracy.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

We took our freedoms so much for granted that we forsook them to get involved in the Local Church-- a top-down authoritarian organization where we had no rights. Our LC experience ought to be enough to motivate us to reject the peddlers of American Theocracy.

There was also some talk about Lee bringing his Chinese way to the US but we overlooked the fact that neither he nor Nee had any democratic experience in the church life or in their government experience. Every experience they had in China or Taiwan was authoritarian government and their Church life was very authoritarian if you read Spiritual Authority by Nee.

Some of us forget that whether it was freeing the slaves or obtaining Women's right to vote, we had choices that many nations or churches never have in their entire existence. Let's not throw it away over an emotional appeal by Cahn that reaches for our base desires and prejudices and gives in to a theocratic appeal to rid us of the very freedoms that many Christians have worked for over the history of this great nation. This begins with the Pilgrims who came to America for the freedom to express their ideas freely and openly which we all enjoy.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

Some of us forget that whether it was freeing the slaves or obtaining Women's right to vote, we had choices that many nations or churches never have in their entire existence. Let's not throw it away over an emotional appeal by Cahn that reaches for our base desires and prejudices and gives in to a theocratic appeal to rid us of the very freedoms that many Christians have worked for over the history of this great nation. This begins with the Pilgrims who came to America for the freedom to express their ideas freely and openly which we all enjoy.

I took Harold's bait and opened a video of Jonathan Cahn on YouTube. The guy is shilling his wares on Jim Bakker's show. The Jim Bakker show: where for an $80 dollar donation they'll send you a teddy bear. I got that from watching about 30 seconds of Jim Bakker (the post-prison, rehabbed version) once. I knew instantly what I was looking at.

I didn't even need 30 seconds with Cahn to know what I was looking at. I wouldn't even waste my time with this guy. It's not worth the effort, really; if people want to swallow that stuff there's nothing you can do to stop them. Don't waste your time. God called you for better stuff than wallowing with that.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Let's not throw it away over an emotional appeal by Cahn that reaches for our base desires and prejudices and gives in to a theocratic appeal to rid us of the very freedoms that many Christians have worked for over the history of this great nation.

Originally Posted by Zeek

We, on the other hand, should know better. If Cahn's aim is to transform the U.S. into a theocracy, we can look back at our Local Church experience as evidence of what a bad idea that is.

After the death of my son my wife went bonkers on drugs and alcohol. Because I contributed her behavior to his death I put up with that misery for over a decade (plus I loved her).

What I saw was that her addictions had such a grip on her she never learned from negative payoff after negative payoff after negative payoff ... on and on.

So since it seems some of us hasn't learned by our local church theocracy negative payoff experience, maybe we should ask ourselves if we have an addiction to authoritarianism, and theocracy, and need, down to the cellular level, like a drug, a dictatorial leader. And Cahn is a fix ; a needle in the arm, metaphorically speaking.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by awareness

And by the way, the master American founding history revisionist, David Barton, of Wallbuilder fame, where Cahn comes by his stupid notion that America was founded on Christ, is of The New Apostolic Reformation Movement, as well as is Rick Perry, governor of Texas, as revealed by sitting next to the NAR in his 2011 prayer for rain at Reliant Stadium.

So if a politican sits next to members of a certain church at a televised rain-dance -- I mean, rain-prayer -- event...that makes him a member of their church? Or do you have something else to go by?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by zeek

Sadly Watchman Nee and Witness Lee had little direct experience of democracy before Lee came to the United States. Nee's prognosis of the inevitable democratic failure mirrors the struggle of Sun Yat-sen to establish a democratic republic of China. But, Sun Yat-sen's dream was never fully realized and the Communists took over. So, Nee and Lee may be excused for their ignorance. We, on the other hand, should know better. If Cahn's aim is to transform the U.S. into a theocracy, we can look back at our Local Church experience as evidence of what a bad idea that is. His argument is based on the lie that the U.S. was a Christian nation to begin with. Thus, it is based on a false premise. The whole idea that we should roll back history to the New Testament in order to recapitulate the "Church Life" or role back the American experience to recapitulate the nation of Israel ignores the progress in political thinking that resulted in the establishment of our nation as a democratic republic. We took our freedoms so much for granted that we forsook them to get involved in the Local Church -- a top-down authoritarian organization where we had no rights. Our LC experience ought to be enough to motivate us to reject the peddlers of American Theocracy.

As awareness has pointed out, was it more that we took our freedom for granted, or that we didn't really like/want our freedom all that much?

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by aron

I didn't even need 30 seconds with Cahn to know what I was looking at. I wouldn't even waste my time with this guy. It's not worth the effort, really; if people want to swallow that stuff there's nothing you can do to stop them. Don't waste your time. God called you for better stuff than wallowing with that.

Some weeks ago Jonathan Cahn told Sid Supernatural that America’s defeat in the Vietnam War and the September 11 attacks were both the result of divine judgment linked to the legalization of abortion in 1973’s Roe v. Wade. He has claimed before that the attacks on September 11 2001 and the financial collapse in 2008 both happened in Shemitah years [Sabbath years every seven years], and that God allowed them to take place to send a warning to the United States about legal abortion and same-sex marriage.

(Have you compared other major catastrophic events of the time against the principle of the Shemitah? Hurrican Katrina in 2005. Ooh! Falls in the middle. Bombing of the World Trade Centre in 1993. Ouch! Not a Shemitah year! The bomb in Oklahoma City in 1995? Darn! Just missed it. The Space Shuttle Challenger disaster in 1986. Not either! Much like playing roulette, isn’t it?)

Now because of Cahn's codswallop many are waiting for 2015 (2001, 2008, 2015, 2022 …). This is superstition! It has nothing to do with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ or in His redemptive death on the Cross.

Jonathan Cahn’s most outrageous statements are making a mockery of the words of the Lord Jesus Himself:

“Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed” (John 8:36, MKJV).

Paul was also outspoken about the freedom of the believers:

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty [freedom] with which Christ has made us free, and do not again be held with the yoke of bondage” (Galatians 5:1, MKJV).

Superstition inevitably leads to bondage and the loss of freedom. Why would anyone do that? Who has bewitched you? Do not again be held with the yoke of slavery.

And it came to pass that as we were proceeding to the place of prayer, a certain female slave possessing a spirit, a Pythian spirit [Pythia is better known as the Oracle of Delphi], encountered us, who was of such a nature that she provided her masters with a profitable business by acting as a seer and delivering prophecies and oracles. This woman, having followed after Paul and us, cried out saying, “These men are slaves of God, the Most High God, such as are making known to you the way of salvation.” And this she kept on doing many days. But Paul, thoroughly annoyed and indignant, was worn out, and having turned around to the spirit, said, “I charge you in the Name of Jesus Christ to come out of her at once.” And he came out that same hour. (Acts 16:16–18, Wuest. My emphasis. I added explanation and punctuation.)

The reality of this situation is that this slave girl had a demonic psychic spirit. Evan Roberts had the ability to identify anybody in an audience and name the illness he or she suffered from … and heal them. So did Alexander Dowie and John G Lake around the same time. Later there was William Branham who had among his converts one Jim Jones who later relocated to Guyana. When Branham died after a serious car accident in 1965, his followers waited four months until Easter of the following year to bury him, believing he would resurrect. See the danger?

My reference to the cycles of seven years is not a veiled attempt to introduce the Shemitah into this thread. I could not sleep last night because I kept thinking of the demonic psychic slave girl of Thyatira and what had happened after Paul had cast out the psychic spirit.

Now, her masters, having seen that the hope of their gain had vanished, having seized Paul and Silas, dragged them by their heels into the market place to the civil rulers, and having brought them to the magistrates said, “These men are causing a great deal of trouble in our city, being Jews, and are promulgating customs which it is not lawful for us to be receiving nor to be doing.” (Acts 16:19–21, Wuest. My emphasis and punctuation.)

Has Jonathan Cahn not “a profitable business by acting as a seer and delivering prophecies and oracles?”

[awareness]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

So if a politican sits next to members of a certain church at a televised rain-dance -- I mean, rain-prayer -- event...that makes him a member of their church? Or do you have something else to go by?

No. But he didn't have just ordinary people like yourself sitting next to him. Not everyone gets the privilege of sitting next to the Governor.

And to add a funny. Thirty thousand prayed for rain and "God" sent fires.

I should add that the NAR movement is a fringe movement, but given those like Barton and Cahn are all over Christian TV, and even on shows like Glenn Beck, back when he was on Fox, they are getting play.

Cahn WAS speaking in Washington D.C.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Friedel

Have you compared other major catastrophic events of the time against the principle of the Shemitah? Hurrican Katrina in 2005. Ooh! Falls in the middle. Bombing of the World Trade Centre in 1993. Ouch! Not a Shemitah year! The bomb in Oklahoma City in 1995? Darn! Just missed it. The Space Shuttle Challenger disaster in 1986. Not either! Much like playing roulette, isn’t it?)

This “logic” begs the question: did all “bad things” in the Old Testament happen in the Shemitah years? Of course not. Did all “bad things” in the Old Testament happen only every seven years? Ridiculous! Clearly, not “all bad things” happen during the Shemitah years…not then and not now.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

This “logic” begs the question: did all “bad things” in the Old Testament happen in the Shemitah years? Of course not. Did all “bad things” in the Old Testament happen only every seven years? Ridiculous! Clearly, not “all bad things” happen during the Shemitah years…not then and not now.

Nell

Cahn's chief premise is that God only judges on a seven year cycle.

Otherwise, how can we know whether it is really "supernatural" or not?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

This “logic” begs the question: did all “bad things” in the Old Testament happen in the Shemitah years? Of course not. Did all “bad things” in the Old Testament happen only every seven years? Ridiculous! Clearly, not “all bad things” happen during the Shemitah years…not then and not now.

Nell

That raises a few questions. If bad things happen during Shemitah and non-Shemitah years, what's the difference? Do worse things happen during Shemitah years? Do the bad things that happen effect everybody or just some people? Are the people who are effected by the bad things only the people who have sinned or everybody in general? If people repent will bad things not happen to them or will everybody in the country have to repent in order to avoid God's judgment? Or, is there some quantum of people in the country who have to repent to avoid God's judgment? Do good things happen during Shemitah years?

When I was in the Local Church we were told that bad things would happen if we left. But, bad things happened to some of the people who stayed in. And bad things happened to people who never joined. Couldn't the case be that sooner or later bad things happen to everybody regardless of Shemitah or the Local Church or whether they repent or not?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

That raises a few questions. If bad things happen during Shemitah and non-Shemitah years, what's the difference? Do worse things happen during Shemitah years? Do the bad things that happen effect everybody or just some people? Are the people who are effected by the bad things only the people who have sinned or everybody in general? If people repent will bad things not happen to them or will everybody in the country have to repent in order to avoid God's judgment? Or, is there some quantum of people in the country who have to repent to avoid God's judgment? ...

The word shemitah is most often translated as “the release” or “the remission.” The English word remission is defined as “the cancellation or reduction of a debt or penalty.” The shemitah of ancient Israel refers not only to the releasing of the land but also to the nullification of debt and credit ordained by God and performed on a massive nationwide scale.”

The Shemitah is all about the land resting every 7 years, then there is the cancellation of debt. To distinguish "bad things" from the Shemitah "bad things" in general, look in the Bible. It's clear what is the Sabbath rest. Seven days; seven years. "on the 7th day God rested." It started there.

Originally Posted by zeek

Do good things happen during Shemitah years?

“But the Shemitah has two edges. To a nation that by and large upholds the way of God, it comes as a blessing. But to a nation that has once known the ways of God but now rejects and defies them, the Shemitah comes not as a blessing but a judgment---and brings not a rising but a fall.” p. 206, The Mystery of the Shemitah by Jonathan Cahn.

[Nell]

“The Shemitah has a purpose. It manifests God’s sovereignty and dominion over all things and exposes the illusion of man’s sovereignty and dominion. It declares that all blessings come from God. It calls man away from the physical realm to the spiritual. It calls him to return to God. Thus, the Shemitah is necessary. And when dealing with a culture or civilization enmeshed in materialism, prosperity, carnality, idolatry, arrogance, self-absorption, and the idea that man is sovereign to do however he pleases---the Shemitah becomes even more necessary.

In the day of the Shemitah’s coming, illusions are exposed, entanglements are broken, pride is humbled, the gods are judged, and the idols are wiped away---even the illusions, entanglements, idols, and gods in the lives of His own people.

The Last Shemitah
Even when it comes in the form of judgment, the Shemitah is ultimately a manifestation of mercy in that it reminds, calls back, and warns----in view of a greater Shemitah yet to come. This greater Shemitah concerns not so much nations, but every individual, every life. It is the last Shemitah.

The last Shemita declares that all things---our lives, our beings, our breath---comes as gifts from God. Of ourselves we have nothing. All our notions of ownership are an illusion; all our pride, a deception. We are not sovereign but completely dependent. Everything we have---our possessions, our money, our riches, every moment of our lives---everything has been given to us.

Every heartbeat is borrowed. … “
Ibid, pp. 247-248
This continues but I’ll stop here.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Cahn's chief premise is that God only judges on a seven year cycle.

Otherwise, how can we know whether it is really "supernatural" or not?

I have no idea where this is coming from.

Cahn never said God ONLY judges on a seven year cycle.

Supernatural? No idea.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by The Mystery of the Shemitah by Jonathan Cahn.

“But the Shemitah has two edges. To a nation that by and large upholds the way of God, it comes as a blessing. But to a nation that has once known the ways of God but now rejects and defies them, the Shemitah comes not as a blessing but a judgment---and brings not a rising but a fall.”

All our notions of ownership are an illusion; all our pride, a deception.
Ibid

A brother out here sent me a book entitled "What Makes You Not a Buddhist."

The last quote above reminds me of sections of that book.

And that, and the first quote, brings China to mind. Is a nation better off not having anything to do with God? So that way this crazy Shemitah stuff won't apply to them?

No wonder China is going up and America is going down. America made the mistake of getting tangled up with God, while China by and large is free of the God nonsense.

Is that what Cahn is saying?

Would America have been better off if its founders had been Buddhists?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

The word shemitah is most often translated as “the release” or “the remission.” The English word remission is defined as “the cancellation or reduction of a debt or penalty.” The shemitah of ancient Israel refers not only to the releasing of the land but also to the nullification of debt and credit ordained by God and performed on a massive nationwide scale.”

The Shemitah is all about the land resting every 7 years, then there is the cancellation of debt. To distinguish "bad things" from the Shemitah "bad things" in general, look in the Bible. It's clear what is the Sabbath rest. Seven days; seven years. "on the 7th day God rested." It started there.



“But the Shemitah has two edges. To a nation that by and large upholds the way of God, it comes as a blessing. But to a nation that has once known the ways of God but now rejects and defies them, the Shemitah comes not as a blessing but a judgment---and brings not a rising but a fall.” p. 206, The Mystery of the Shemitah by Jonathan Cahn.

Thanks, Nell. OK. Life has two edges. Blessing and judgment can come, and do come at any time. So it seems good and bad things happen during Shemitah just like any other year. So, maybe I'm missing something because Shemitah just seems like life in general.

What's more, it seems to me that bad things happen to good people [ if you believe there is such a thing] and good things happen to bad people. This observation is supported by Jesus when he says, "Your father in heaven maketh the sun to shine on the evil and the good and sendeth the rain on the just and the unjust." Doesn't that nullify Cahn's idea of Shemitah?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

Thanks, Nell. OK. Life has two edges. Blessing and judgment can come, and do come at any time. So it seems good and bad things happen during Shemitah just like any other year. So, maybe I'm missing something because Shemitah just seems like life in general.

What's more, it seems to me that bad things happen to good people [ if you believe there is such a thing] and good things happen to bad people. This observation is supported by Jesus when he says, "Your father in heaven maketh the sun to shine on the evil and the good and sendeth the rain on the just and the unjust." Doesn't that nullify Cahn's idea of Shemitah?

Shemitah isn't "Cahn's idea". It's it's God's idea. It's in the Bible, the Old Testament. It's clearly defined: every 7th year the land is to rest and debts to be forgiven. That's oversimplified but that's the main elements. Again, it's in the Bible, not something Cahn came up with.

The Sabbath/Shemitah is observed (in the OT) whether by man's voluntary decision to obey God's commands (blessing) or by God's judgment. For example, in the 70 year exile when Israel was carried away to Babylon, the land rested. After that, they were allowed by God to returned to the land. There is not an account in the Bible of every Shemitah year and it's blessing or judgment.

In The Mystery of the Shemitah Cahn lays out significant events of world history, the Gregorian calendar, and overlays the Hebrew calendar dates of the Shemitah. God seems to be sending a message to his children: I made you. I gave you everything you have. It belongs to me but you can use it. In return, I want you to let my land rest every seven years, etc. I've given you a long quote to this effect.

It's not easy to understand a book you haven't read. Looking to me to answer your questions is hardly fair to Cahn.

Nell

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by zeek

That raises a few questions. If bad things happen during Shemitah and non-Shemitah years, what's the difference? Do worse things happen during Shemitah years? Do the bad things that happen effect everybody or just some people? Are the people who are effected by the bad things only the people who have sinned or everybody in general? If people repent will bad things not happen to them or will everybody in the country have to repent in order to avoid God's judgment? Or, is there some quantum of people in the country who have to repent to avoid God's judgment? Do good things happen during Shemitah years?

When I was in the Local Church we were told that bad things would happen if we left. But, bad things happened to some of the people who stayed in. And bad things happened to people who never joined. Couldn't the case be that sooner or later bad things happen to everybody regardless of Shemitah or the Local Church or whether they repent or not?

According to wikipedia, between 1982-2009, between 80,000-100,000 people were killed in the Sri Lankan civil war. Tens of thousands of these were civilians. This is roughly equivalent to one 9/11 every year, for 28 years. And Sri Lanka is a lot smaller than the U.S.

I don't mean to make light of any of this. But I do think that a lot of our reactions to the events of the last 10-15 years, are largely a reflection of the fact that the US remains a much safer place to live than a lot of places in this world. So our reactions are inevitably out of proportion to the way people elsewhere might react.

I'm not saying our reactions shouldn't reflect that. We're people. We're like little ants running around down here. But shouldn't we avoid projecting our frame of reference into something universal?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by awareness

No. But he didn't have just ordinary people like yourself sitting next to him. Not everyone gets the privilege of sitting next to the Governor.

And to add a funny. Thirty thousand prayed for rain and "God" sent fires.

I should add that the NAR movement is a fringe movement, but given those like Barton and Cahn are all over Christian TV, and even on shows like Glenn Beck, back when he was on Fox, they are getting play.

Cahn WAS speaking in Washington D.C.

OK, so then perhaps Gov Perry isn't actually "of the NAR", just because he sat next to them in front of a TV camera.

I think this is part of why these "ultra-nationalistic" groups doesn't alarm me that much, personally. Politicians rub elbows w/a lot of leaders. African American politicians, usually of a liberal persuasion, frequently rub elbows w/church leaders in their communities. (And the media usually does not bother them w/lectures on the separation of church and state.) Pols also hobnob w/union leaders. And Barbara Streisand, and Ellen DeGeneres. It's about trust. And it's about celebrity. Trust + celebrity = votes.

It doesn't mean a Pres Perry would impose his Christian faith on non-Christian Americans, anymore than Pres Bush did. Or anymore than Pres Obama is imposing his Muslim faith on us now. (That's a joke, btw.)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

OK, so then perhaps Gov Perry isn't actually "of the NAR", just because he sat next to them in front of a TV camera.

I think this is part of why these "ultra-nationalistic" groups doesn't alarm me that much, personally. Politicians rub elbows w/a lot of leaders. African American politicians, usually of a liberal persuasion, frequently rub elbows w/church leaders in their communities. (And the media usually does not bother them w/lectures on the separation of church and state.) Pols also hobnob w/union leaders. And Barbara Streisand, and Ellen DeGeneres. It's about trust. And it's about celebrity. Trust + celebrity = votes.

It doesn't mean a Pres Perry would impose his Christian faith on non-Christian Americans, anymore than Pres Bush did. Or anymore than Pres Obama is imposing his Muslim faith on us now. (That's a joke, btw.)

Bro Ray you either haven't taken a close enough look, or haven't stepped back enough to see the bigger picture.

Rick Perry was sitting next to the NRA with 30,000 evangelicals at Houston’s Reliant Stadium. He declared a day of prayer.

“Now, therefore, I, Rick Perry, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas.”

Plus, according to the New York Times, Perry stated he would govern by outsourcing to the supernatural.

So yes, Perry is into imposing Christianity on everyone under his leadership. A very NAR strategy.

And I think this is what Cahn is warning us for ; America needs to repent and turn back to Christianity ; that he claims America was founded upon.

Gather your stones. If NAR and Cahn (and Dancing btw) get their way there's gonna be lots of stoning going on. And I, and prolly you, will be their target.

Run for the hills, the scary Shemitah is coming. When I was a kid I think it was hiding under my bed at night.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

...And I think this is what Cahn is warning us for ; America needs to repent and turn back to Christianity...

Whoa! Wouldn't that be AWFUL????

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Whoa! Wouldn't that be AWFUL????

Yes. Then America would come under Biblical law. And we'd be thrown back into the dark ages. Like what happened when Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire.

But the good news would be that all crowding would be relieved ... and the price of houses would drop into the basement. As at least three quarters of our population would have to be stoned to death ... including Bill Clinton ... if, that is, Jewish law on adultery didn't hold, that Bill used, which advises that adultery is only between two married people (and Monica wasn't married).

And my meanness would be mere child's play, in comparison. And you, my dear sister, would prolly be burned at the stake, as an accused witch.

Read your history sis Nell. And not Cahn.

Ha ...

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

Gather your stones. If NAR and Cahn (and Dancing btw) get their way there's gonna be lots of stoning going on. And I, and prolly you, will be their target.

Come on Harold. Stoning? Stop flaming other forum members. Dancing (or any other member for that matter) has insinuated no such thing. In fact no forum member has really made any mention of the political side of what Cahn spoke about in his address. IT IS YOU (and maybe some others) who have consistently twisted the whole thing so you can present and attack a straw man, and then make outrageous and ugly posts like this one. Discuss what was presented by Thankful Jane in the opening post, discuss what Nell has brought fourth, but please stop bringing up things and emphasizing views that have zero to do with what these other posters have brought forth.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

[COLOR="Navy"]Come on Harold. Stoning?

So you think stoning is far fetched.

"As of September 2010, stoning is a punishment that is included in the laws in some countries including Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, Yemen and some states in Nigeria[16] as punishment for zina al-mohsena ("adultery of married persons")."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning#Usage_today

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

Shemitah isn't "Cahn's idea". It's it's God's idea. It's in the Bible, the Old Testament. It's clearly defined: every 7th year the land is to rest and debts to be forgiven. That's oversimplified but that's the main elements. Again, it's in the Bible, not something Cahn came up with.

The Sabbath/Shemitah is observed (in the OT) whether by man's voluntary decision to obey God's commands (blessing) or by God's judgment. For example, in the 70 year exile when Israel was carried away to Babylon, the land rested. After that, they were allowed by God to returned to the land. There is not an account in the Bible of every Shemitah year and it's blessing or judgment.

In The Mystery of the Shemitah Cahn lays out significant events of world history, the Gregorian calendar, and overlays the Hebrew calendar dates of the Shemitah. God seems to be sending a message to his children: I made you. I gave you everything you have. It belongs to me but you can use it. In return, I want you to let my land rest every seven years, etc. I've given you a long quote to this effect.

It's not easy to understand a book you haven't read. Looking to me to answer your questions is hardly fair to Cahn.

Nell

It's an idea that is contradicted by Jesus' idea that "your father in heaven sendeth the sun to shine on the evil and the good and sendeth the rain on the just and the unjust. That implies a God who does not judge. Shemitah implies a God who does. Jesus here was expressing a non-judgement attitude. Cahn is expressing a judgmental attitude. People who see God's judgment in catastrophic events may just be projecting their own point of view onto circumstances. They never seem to be able to demonstrate that God was behind it. Ben Laden claimed that the destruction of the twin towers was God's judgment on the US. Cahn shares his opinion and apparently you do to. I think it was a case of people committing a crime against people. Can you demonstrate that it was more than that?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

So you think stoning is far fetched.

"As of September 2010, stoning is a punishment that is included in the laws in some countries including Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, Yemen and some states in Nigeria[16] as punishment for zina al-mohsena ("adultery of married persons")."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning#Usage_today

Christians, Harold, you were speaking of Christians. NOT radical Muslims. Furthermore you are baiting and flaming by mentioning Dancing in your latest rant. Please refrain from the punches below the belt or you're going to get disqualified!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Christians, Harold, you were speaking of Christians. NOT radical Muslims. Furthermore you are baiting and flaming by mentioning Dancing in your latest rant. Please refrain from the punches below the belt or you're going to get disqualified!

Yes. You are right. Sorry Dancing. and Nell too. But not sorry to Cahn.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

It's an idea that is contradicted by Jesus' idea that "your father in heaven sendeth the sun to shine on the evil and the good and sendeth the rain on the just and the unjust. ...

Not really. This verse describes a God who judges with impartiality...he sends sun and rain on all...both the just and unjust. Regardless, there is more than one verse in the Bible.

Originally Posted by zeek

That implies a God who does not judge. Shemitah implies a God who does. Jesus here was expressing a non-judgement attitude...

So you're saying God contradicts Jesus? If this is what you're saying, this is heresy.

Originally Posted by zeek

That implies a God who does not judge.

Are you also implying that God does not judge? Another problem.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: ...

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for [B]the hour of his judgment[/B] is come: ...

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Nell

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Come on Harold. Stoning? Stop flaming other forum members. Dancing (or any other member for that matter) has insinuated no such thing. In fact no forum member has really made any mention of the political side of what Cahn spoke about in his address. IT IS YOU (and maybe some others) who have consistently twisted the whole thing so you can present and attack a straw man, and then make outrageous and ugly posts like this one. Discuss what was presented by Thankful Jane in the opening post, discuss what Nell has brought fourth, but please stop bringing up things and emphasizing views that have zero to do with what these other posters have brought forth.

You should be a little less volatile yourself. I also think that Awareness is prone to gross exaggeration, but that is quite different from flaming.

If we truly return to an OT-based rule of moral law, then technically stoning would be back on the books. I'm quite aware that no one — not even Cahn — is suggesting that. But despite the logical fallacy of the slippery slope argument, it is not irrational to consider the slippery slope.

Where is the flaming in that?

The problem is that in the land of the United Theocracy of America, it is not clear what is fact and what is fiction. Many of us argue that the very existence of that place is a fiction. But those who push it hint at outcomes that cannot be obtained by simply praying. There is something beyond simply prayer that is required. Like outlawing homosexuality and jailing those who perform and receive abortions. Things that cannot happen so simply.

If this is about prayer, then jettison the comparisons to OT Israel. Dump the "Christian Nation" rhetoric. Those are inconsistent with the Christian life that Christ directed. The interaction of the Christian with the government is fairly well set-out in the NT. And there is no sound basis for pushing the OT covenant with Israel into the NT period for application to other countries.

It really is time to shut this whole thing down. It can only get uglier.

Unless you want to dictate that we just have to let it be. And despite your personal ownership of the forum, it needs more than "because you say so" on something like this. There needs to be a sound reason. And not offending sisters is a pretty poor reason to allow nonsense on the forum. The whole premise of Cahn is not much better than awareness' worry about stonings. Both are a bit "out there." This is not the forum of discussion about the fantastical theology of anyone outside of the LRC. And more specifically Nee, Lee, and their successors.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

You should be a little less volatile yourself. I also think that Awareness is prone to gross exaggeration, but that is quite different from flaming.

If we truly return to an OT-based rule of moral law, then technically stoning would be back on the books. I'm quite aware that no one — not even Cahn — is suggesting that. But despite the logical fallacy of the slippery slope argument, it is not irrational to consider the slippery slope.

Where is the flaming in that?

The problem is that in the land of the United Theocracy of America, it is not clear what is fact and what is fiction. Many of us argue that the very existence of that place is a fiction. But those who push it hint at outcomes that cannot be obtained by simply praying. There is something beyond simply prayer that is required. Like outlawing homosexuality and jailing those who perform and receive abortions. Things that cannot happen so simply.

If this is about prayer, then jettison the comparisons to OT Israel. Dump the "Christian Nation" rhetoric. Those are inconsistent with the Christian life that Christ directed. The interaction of the Christian with the government is fairly well set-out in the NT. And there is no sound basis for pushing the OT covenant with Israel into the NT period for application to other countries.

It really is time to shut this whole thing down. It can only get uglier.

Unless you want to dictate that we just have to let it be. And despite your personal ownership of the forum, it needs more than "because you say so" on something like this. There needs to be a sound reason. And not offending sisters is a pretty poor reason to allow nonsense on the forum. The whole premise of Cahn is not much better than awareness' worry about stonings. Both are a bit "out there." This is not the forum of discussion about the fantastical theology of anyone outside of the LRC. And more specifically Nee, Lee, and their successors.

My my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my ... my.

Nothing I've seen to date on this topic is as ugly as this.

Nell

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

Not really. This verse describes a God who judges with impartiality...he sends sun and rain on all...both the just and unjust. Regardless, there is more than one verse in the Bible.

Wouldn't a God who judges impartially send the sun on the just and the rain on the unjust?

So you're saying God contradicts Jesus? If this is what you're saying, this is heresy.

Where did I say that? Did you discover a heretic? I didn't even know this was an inquisition.

Are you also implying that God does not judge? Another problem.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: ...

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for [B]the hour of his judgment[/B] is come: ...

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

And yet Jesus said, “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

If God judges and we are not supposed to judge, what does that tell you? Perhaps we should not presume to know God's judgments let alone try to make ultimate judgments ourselves. After all Romans 11:33 says "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" Personally, I don't know. I'll let you be the judge.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

So you think stoning is far fetched.

Obviously, stoning does seem far-fetched especially in regards to this conversation but unfortunately it states in Leviticus 20:10-12,
“10 If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. 11 If a man lies with his father's wife, he has uncovered his father's nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. 12 If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them.”

While none of us would approve of any of the actions in Levitcus and I have enough confidence in the Christians in the US to reject this kind of literal extremism but it is of concern to me to hear it and we know that the majority of Muslims don’t agree with the extremism in their faith and yet it only takes a small minority to promote extremism. At this point with Cahn suggesting that God caused the deaths in 9/11, the deaths in the Vietnam War, the economic downturn etc I am very troubled with this man especially since I am a Veteran of the Vietnam War and I don’t see the correlation whether or not I agreed with the war. How does he account for 6 million Jews who were killed in Nazi Germany or 20 million Russians in WWII? Are all these a result of God's wrath? What an angry God!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

It really is time to shut this whole thing down. It can only get uglier.

Yes. It was nonsense from the get-go, and off topic of LCD to boot.

Truth is, if God isn't judging marketeers like Cahn, and there are plenty of them, I don't think we have any fear of God judging America for not letting the land lay fallow every 7 yrs, and not forgiving debts.

And if God is into judging nations that don't turn to him wouldn't he be smiting China, that is predominately atheist, and not America, that is predominately Christian?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

Wouldn't a God who judges impartially send the sun on the just and the rain on the unjust?

I just read the verse. Everybody gets everything.

Originally Posted by zeek

Where did I say that? Did you discover a heretic? I didn't even know this was an inquisition.

No. Sorry. Just a question. I must have misunderstood your point.

Originally Posted by zeek

And yet Jesus said, “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

If God judges and we are not supposed to judge, what does that tell you?

It tells me that God is better at judging than we are. He knows what he's doing. We don't know what we're doing, much less what he's doing.

Originally Posted by zeek

Perhaps we should not presume to know God's judgments let alone try to make ultimate judgments ourselves. After all Romans 11:33 says "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" Personally, I don't know. I'll let you be the judge.

Amen, Bro.

Does that mean you don't know about Cahn either?

Nell

[Nell]

How 'bout this? Everyone who wants to participate in this discussion, gets to participate. Everyone who doesn't like this discussion gets to....do something else. Whatever they want. Will that work?



Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

My my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my ... my.

Nothing I've seen to date on this topic is as ugly as this.

Nell

Did you actually type out all those letters, or do you have some kind of automatic letter generator?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

I just read the verse. Everybody gets everything.


No. Sorry. Just a question. I must have misunderstood your point.



It tells me that God is better at judging than we are. He knows what he's doing. We don't know what we're doing, much less what he's doing.




Amen, Bro.

Does that mean you don't know about Cahn either?

Nell

Of course. The only thing I have consumed of Cahn is the prayer breakfast, the articles I have read online, and what you and others have quoted on this thread. Based on my reading of political philosophy and American history his belief that America began as a Christian nation is factually incorrect. That's the factual part of his message. Since that is wrong why should I trust his predictions?

Cahn's vision fits into the Christian Dominionist mode that l don't subscribe to. I'm making a judgment about his claims based on how they appear to me in view of my lifetime of study. I don't claim to know enough about ultimate reality to be certain and I doubt that he does either.

The American form of government is a product of human reason that operates based on limited human knowledge. It is a based on political philosophy that I consider sound not on religion. I trust that more than I do people who make exalted claims of a divine vision.

I followed a guy who claimed to be an apostle for 13 years. I don't intend to abandon critical thinking again to follow a guy who claims to be a prophet. I've already explained why his claims cannot be falsified. How do you calibrate them?

Hey maybe Cahn's been proven right already. Shemitah no sooner got started when God took his protecting hand off the USA and hit us with the Ebola virus under a blood red moon! And in Texas, that bastion of Right wing fundamentalism of all places! Who can figure God out? May he be merciful.

It isn't clear to me what it is about Cahn's message that appeals to you. Maybe he's preaching a message that you want to believe. You see things that are wrong with America and you want to see it judged.

Oh, and thanks for the amen, by the way. Amen to you too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

While none of us would approve of any of the actions in Leviticus and I have enough confidence in the Christians in the US to reject this kind of literal extremism but it is of concern to me to hear it and we know that the majority of Muslims don’t agree with the extremism in their faith and yet it only takes a small minority to promote extremism.

I don't think it is a minority.

Recent polls of Mooslims in Mid East countries showed that over 70 percent approved both the stoning of adulterers and "honor" killings of family members who bring "shame" to their families.

America naively believes that Mooslims have a "peaceful" religion, when all the facts solidly refute this.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

And if God is into judging nations that don't turn to him wouldn't he be smiting China, that is predominately atheist, and not America, that is predominately Christian?

awareness. Your statement is too logical and I don't think Cahn's God is into logical. No, let's destroy the most Christian country in the world because it is flawed.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't think it is a minority.

Let me rephrase my statement. We can only hope and pray that the majority of Muslims don’t agree with the extremism in their faith.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

Nothing I've seen to date on this topic is as ugly as this.

Except the kind of position that would treat those who do not agree with unscriptural positions as the modern equivalent of the ones who did not "turn back to God" and caused the downfall of Israel and Judah.

This whole premise is very ugly. And pushing it out here and claiming to defend it without providing any actual support other than Cahn's claim that it is true is really ugly.

Have you not seen the kind of ugly that the people who march against homosexuality exhibit? Or against abortion? I know, Cahn says this is all about prayer. But the prayers of those who are already righteous and who are always praying anyway is not changing the nation already. This is a backdoor to stir up Christians to more public action to create laws against sinners and in the favor of Christians and Christianity. And it is a damage to the preaching of the gospel because it makes us entirely uncharitable.

My post may have been slightly ugly. But it was nothing like the ugly I've seen in the public square from those who support the Christian Nation rhetoric.

And Cahn's speech was not any better. Just reserved.

You are supporting the Christian equivalent of sharia law. That is an ugly thing no matter what religion is running it. It will make us into the people who judge sinners before the time that God appoints. It makes any kind of "altar call" a mockery, especially if we sing "Just as I Am" while waiting for "just one more hand."

You are pushing ugly. Cahn's speech was ugly and sickening. And I'm sure his book is full of rhetorical tricks and emotional appeals to get as many as possible to follow falsehoods.

And you like it and dislike my push-back. In my book, that puts you on the side of, well, . . . .

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

...It isn't clear to me what it is about Cahn's message that appeals to you. Maybe he's preaching a message that you want to believe. You see things that are wrong with America and you want to see it judged.

Oh, and thanks for the amen, by the way. Amen to you too.

Zeek,

It isn't Cahn's message that appeals to me as much as it is God's message. To me it's A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us. Cahn is preaching a message that was first presented in God's word. "Repent! For the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" This message has been renewed for me in this Shemitah year because of Cahn's books.

I do see things wrong with America. Don't you? I want to see those things changed---not judged. What's wrong with that? Prayer changes things. That's really all I know to do.

I'm awake. I'm listening for God's speaking. I want to discuss the 2 books that got my attention. You have every right to challenge Cahn. Go for it. If there are holes in his books, I want to know. However, again, to form an opinion of a man whose books you've never read doesn't lend credence to your challenge. How can someone speak with authority on a book or books they have not read?

What about these verses? (Dave?) The verses apply to all of us.
A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps. (Pr 14:15)
It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way. (Pr 19:2)
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)
Test everything. Hold on to the good. (1 Thes 5:21)
You are reasonable people. Decide for yourselves if what I am saying is true. (1 Corinthians 10:15)

Isn't that what we're doing?

Regarding the US:
"There is ... no stage or platform on earth so well suited for the manifesting of the mystery of the Shemitah as America (Cahn's opinion). Is the Israel connection necessary for the mystery to manifest? No. It could manifest to any nation, just as God could send a warning of national judgment to any nation. No unique connection to ancient Israel is needed for America to be given a biblical sign of national judgment." The Mystery of the Shemitah, p. 58, Jonathan Cahn

This is at least the second time I've posted this quote from Cahn. Still Cahn's position on the US is misrepresented. The fact that you may disagree with Cahn on his beliefs about the US doesn't nullify his message. He clearly states that the Israel-US connection is not necessary.

Why is there so much resistance to this topic? In my opinion, one reason for the resistance is due to all the straw-man arguments (such as his position on the Israel-US connection) which have little basis in what Cahn has said, and for that matter, what I have tried to present. I apologize for any unclear message I've sent, but I will repeat the short version of what I believe: Cahn may be on to something, time will tell.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

You are supporting the Christian equivalent of sharia law.

You've crossed a line, Mike. This is outrageous. Shame on you.

Originally Posted by OBW

...And you like it and dislike my push-back. In my book, that puts you on the side of, well, . . . .

Slightly ugly? I would say vile and reprehensible. After all, I'm the one on the receiving end of your attacks.

"Push-back"? Is that what you call it?

On the side of what?

You said it could only get uglier. You're making sure that happens.

As I've said before, this kind of rhetoric says more about you than it does about me.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

You've crossed a line, Mike. This is outrageous. Shame on you.



Slightly ugly? I would say vile and reprehensible. After all, I'm the one on the receiving end of your attacks.

"Push-back"? Is that what you call it?

On the side of what?

You said it could only get uglier. You're making sure that happens.

As I've said before, this kind of rhetoric says more about you than it does about me.

Yes it does. Speaks volumes.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

Zeek,

It isn't Cahn's message that appeals to me as much as it is God's message. To me it's A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us. Cahn is preaching a message that was first presented in God's word. "Repent! For the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" This message has been renewed for me in this Shemitah year because of Cahn's books.

I do see things wrong with America. Don't you? I want to see those things changed---not judged. What's wrong with that? Prayer changes things. That's really all I know to do.

I'm awake. I'm listening for God's speaking. I want to discuss the 2 books that got my attention. You have every right to challenge Cahn. Go for it. If there are holes in his books, I want to know. However, again, to form an opinion of a man whose books you've never read doesn't lend credence to your challenge. How can someone speak with authority on a book or books they have not read?

But, Nell you haven't answered my questions. How do you parse out God's message from Cahn's? How do you know they are one and the same?

We have established that things we consider good and bad are happening all the time to everybody. How do you measure when something is so extraordinarily good or bad that it represents the intervention of God to judge or bless people? Do you assume that every time something that you consider bad happens to someone that it is God's judgement on them? If you don't know what their sin is, do you assume that they must have some hidden sin? How do you avoid unwarranted suspicion and cynicism?

I haven't bought Cahn's books because I haven't found his propositions convincing on the face. He is making apparently spurious connections that confirm his own values in the name of God. He thinks that America began as a theocracy and he wants us to get back to that kind of state. I think that is wrong. He is promoting superstitious thinking that leads to anxiety and depression. I don't support that. but, I am willing to discuss it here.

We are people who have a common history of being duped by a charismatic preacher in the past. I don't want to see that happen again. I want to better understand the kind of thinking that leads people to abandon reason and give up their rights like I once did.

So, I think Cahn and people like him are interesting and worth keeping an eye on. I am not willing to forsake critical thinking again for the sake of religion. On the other hand, I am interested in healthy religious practices that don't fall into these mental traps. Religion can foster compassion, openness, intellectual humility, a sense of meaning and inner peace. Those are the kind of values I seek to see realized. I don't think Cahn's message fosters them.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

But, Nell you haven't answered my questions. How do you parse out God's message from Cahn's? How do you know they are one and the same?

Read Cahn. Read the Bible. Compare. That's how you know.

Originally Posted by zeek

We have established that things we consider good and bad are happening all the time to everybody. How do you measure when something is so extraordinarily good or bad that it represents the intervention of God to judge or bless people? Do you assume that every time something that you consider bad happens to someone that it is God's judgement on them? If you don't know what their sin is, do you assume that they must have some hidden sin? How do you avoid unwarranted suspicion and cynicism?

You don't measure. You don't assume. You don't know the hearts of men. You don't know their sin. This is beyond the scope of Cahn's books. He doesn't do this. Neither do I.

If you want to drill down on this, that's your deal, but it's not something you should attribute to Cahn. However, I will say this, your point is well taken. There is NO WAY we are qualified to answer the questions you pose. It's a mistake to assume that Cahn is doing this.

Originally Posted by zeek

I haven't bought Cahn's books because I haven't found his propositions convincing on the face. He is making apparently spurious connections that confirm his own values in the name of God. He thinks that America began as a theocracy and he wants us to get back to that kind of state. I think that is wrong. He is promoting superstitious thinking that leads to anxiety and depression. I don't support that. but, I am willing to discuss it here.

Once again, "There is ... no stage or platform on earth so well suited for the manifesting of the mystery of the Shemitah as America (Cahn's opinion). Is the Israel connection necessary for the mystery to manifest? No. It could manifest to any nation, just as God could send a warning of national judgment to any nation. No unique connection to ancient Israel is needed for America to be given a biblical sign of national judgment." The Mystery of the Shemitah, p. 58, Jonathan Cahn

Originally Posted by zeek

We are people who have a common history of being duped by a charismatic preacher in the past. I don't want to see that happen again. I want to better understand the kind of thinking that leads people to abandon reason and give up their rights like I once did.

So, I think Cahn and people like him are interesting and worth keeping an eye on. I am not willing to forsake critical thinking again for the sake of religion. On the other hand, I am interested in healthy religious practices that don't fall into these mental traps. Religion can foster compassion, openness, intellectual humility, a sense of meaning and inner peace. Those are the kind of values I seek to see realized. I don't think Cahn's message fosters them.

If you're going to "keep an eye on Cahn" then you should address what he actually says and not what you think he says. From what I can tell, you don't really know what Cahn's message is. Sorry. You've taken him out of context and come to "conclusions" not based on fact. Further, in my humble opinion, there is no reasonable justification for not reading Cahn while at the same profusely offering your opinions about what he's written.

You can't have it both ways.

Nell

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

Read Cahn. Read the Bible. Compare. That's how you know.

You don't measure. You don't assume. You don't know the hearts of men. You don't know their sin. This is beyond the scope of Cahn's books. He doesn't do this. Neither do I.

If you want to drill down on this, that's your deal, but it's not something you should attribute to Cahn. However, I will say this, your point is well taken. There is NO WAY we are qualified to answer the questions you pose. It's a mistake to assume that Cahn is doing this.


Once again, "There is ... no stage or platform on earth so well suited for the manifesting of the mystery of the Shemitah as America (Cahn's opinion). Is the Israel connection necessary for the mystery to manifest? No. It could manifest to any nation, just as God could send a warning of national judgment to any nation. No unique connection to ancient Israel is needed for America to be given a biblical sign of national judgment." The Mystery of the Shemitah, p. 58, Jonathan Cahn

If you're going to "keep an eye on Cahn" then you should address what he actually says and not what you think he says. From what I can tell, you don't really know what Cahn's message is. Sorry. You've taken him out of context and come to "conclusions" not based on fact. Further, in my humble opinion, there is no reasonable justification for not reading Cahn while at the same profusely offering your opinions about what he's written.

You can't have it both ways.

Nell

Did Cahn misrepresent his position at the prayer breakfast in the videos posted on this thread or have you misrepresented him here? Because those are the propositions I am responding to here.

If you can't measure one phenomenon against another you have no way of quantitating catastrophies. Is this year better or worse than last year? According to whose perspective? By what criterion?

Cahn is choosing the criteria and making judgments about whether things are good or bad, better or worse. He is rating events morally and then making connections to other events which he says are God's judgments. Clearly this is all happening in his mind. He is associating one thing with another. But are these things related in the real world? In the mind of God? How would anyone know? The short answer is that no one would.

I see huge problem with lifting beliefs and practices out of the Bible carte blanche and applying them in the modern world. Just as an example look at slavery. The Bible says more to support slavery than it does against it. Even Jesus didn't condemn slavery. Instead, the Bible supports slavery by giving instructions to masters and slaves. For example:

You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5 NLT

If you and Cahn want us to follow Biblical principles to the letter, what do you do with these directives? We have left behind the Biblical principle of slavery. Is God judging us for that? Will God bless us if we go back to enslaving people? I read that slavery is still practiced illegally in the world today. Should modern day slaves obey their masters with respect and fear? If they don't will they be judged by God?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

Read Cahn. Read the Bible. Compare. That's how you know. Nell

I just don't think there are many people on this site who are interested in buying Shemitah by Cahn but maybe if you are willing to send it to them they might look at it for comparison with Biblical scriptures.

It appears if you google Cahn Shemitah you hit a bunch of sites but these two are against Cahn and his Shemitah book. Of course, since they seem to be peddling their own Prophetic books I question their criticism.
http://standupforthetruth.com/2014/0...ered-shemitah/
http://www.alankurschner.com/2014/09...-the-shemitah/

This might be more reputable:
http://www.wnd.com/2014/09/3000-year...tock-collapse/
Cahn does seem to hedge his bets though with this quoted statement with the Shemitah starting this year in 10 days on 9/24/14:

“Nothing significant has to happen within the Shemitah of 2014-2015,” he writes.

Here is “Jonathan Cahn’s official site" on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jonat...55143021176055 You can sign up and high five all the people on this site who share your views. Of course, there are a lot of biblical verses quoted on this site about the future and I am sure you will enjoy this:. Lots and lots of pictures of Cahn. You’ll be in heaven. There is also video after video you can watch to include the Inaugural Breakfast as well as other prophetic quotes from Cahn and the "Mystery of the Alpha Stone". You will also get all the updates about Cahn’s whereabouts to include where he is speaking this Sunday. A can’t miss site for the Cahn true believer.

What I don't understand completely is that if this is such an important book and now he has made his money off of it why doesn't he release it online to make it available to everyone so anyone can look at it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

I just don't think there are many people on this site who are interested in buying Shemitah by Cahn but maybe if you are willing to send it to them they might look at it for comparison with Biblical scriptures.

It appears if you google Cahn Shemitah you hit a bunch of sites but these two are against Cahn and his Shemitah book. Of course, since they seem to be peddling their own Prophetic books I question their criticism.
http://standupforthetruth.com/2014/0...ered-shemitah/
http://www.alankurschner.com/2014/09...-the-shemitah/

This might be more reputable:
http://www.wnd.com/2014/09/3000-year...tock-collapse/
Cahn does seem to hedge his bets though with this quoted statement with the Shemitah starting this year in 10 days on 9/24/14:

“Nothing significant has to happen within the Shemitah of 2014-2015,” he writes.

Here is “Jonathan Cahn’s official site" on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jonat...55143021176055 You can sign up and high five all the people on this site who share your views. Of course, there are a lot of biblical verses quoted on this site about the future and I am sure you will enjoy this:. Lots and lots of pictures of Cahn. You’ll be in heaven. There is also video after video you can watch to include the Inaugural Breakfast as well as other prophetic quotes from Cahn and the "Mystery of the Alpha Stone". You will also get all the updates about Cahn’s whereabouts to include where he is speaking this Sunday. A can’t miss site for the Cahn true believer.

What I don't understand completely is that if this is such an important book and now he has made his money off of it why doesn't he release it online to make it available to everyone so anyone can look at it.

If Cahn was truly concerned about America wouldn't he do this ... offer God's warnings for free?

Think his chief concern is not America ... but, you know what ... or whom.

After all, Jesus didn't charge for his healing's or prophecies. But then Jesus wasn't a marketeer huskster like Cahn.

Read Cahn. Read the Bible.

Looks like, "Read the Bible. Read Lee." -- "Read the Bible. Read Cahn." Turns into: "Read LEE. Read the Bible." "Read CAHN. Read the Bible."

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

You've crossed a line, Mike. This is outrageous. Shame on you.

I sorry you feel that way. It would appear that upon putting up Cahn's message against the Bible, as you suggested to Zeek (I believe) he if found seriously wanting. And if you say I need to go beyond the audio file linked in the beginning of this thread, or the things posted from what he said, then you need to rethink. You need to make the case. And you have failed.

But the only thing that has crossed the line here is Cahn's message. It has purported to be a message from the Bible when there is no evidence that it is. It is an ugly message. And to achieve its goals requires that it be even uglier.

What I have said is an opinion concerning the message of Cahn and the continued things that you post on his behalf. You have taken that as personal. The only think that I have actually said personally about you (or anyone else pushing Cahn's message here) is that it is your responsibility to provide evidence that it is in any way valid. For the most part, you have openly declined. Just said things like "read the book" or "read the Bible."

Separate yourself from your opinions. And quit the false posturing by hiding behind accusations about how you perceive the "tone" of the message and throwing out ad hominems.

You have brought a premise. It is considered your responsibility to support it or to bow out. You do neither, and then throw barbs as those who have nothing but sound generalities to rebut the unspecific claims by Mr. Cahn. He has mentioned some verses. But he does not (in anything that I have yet seen or heard) provide a reason to apply those to anything other than Israel in a specific context. If you have a reason besides "it just seems right" to support his teaching/message, provide it.

It would be good to have a session of "come, let us reason." But it requires something re reason about. At this point, the only thing supplied by your side of the discussion is rather easily debunked as having no foundation. And we have stated that continually. Do you think there is a foundation? If so, provide it.

But when I said that this whole message of Cahn is ugly, I meant it. I have observed the actions of the people who are part of the overall thought process that Cahn is part of, including the "Christian Nation" groups, which he is clearly associated with. Their actions are un-Christian. They are far from "loving" to their neighbor.

Complain about my tone if you like. I am at least keeping this within the church. Cahn, like so many of the activists of "Christian Nation" thinking are putting it out there into the public. They are effectively chastising everyone, including the heathen, for not being the way he wants. There is no prohibition against standing up to the errors within the body. And this is a big one.

Everyone else is still trying to "play nice." But there comes a time when you have to actually speak up to your opposition with more than a feeling. More than "read the book." And that time has come.

This is a challenge. But it should not be an "out of bounds" challenge because you are proposing and fighting for a position that you will not defend with anything but wishful thinking and emotions. If there actually is more than that behind it, neither you nor anyone else has bothered to put it out here for our consideration. It is technically your job. Decline again and you should be asked to stop posting on the subject. It won't happen, but it should happen.

This is not some light, trite, side issue. It is a serious issue for the church today. For many, it is a blight on our landscape. And I believe that until the church rejects this kind of position strongly and out loud (just like we want those moderate Muslims to speak out against the Jihadists), its reputation and testimony in the world is damaged.

[UntoHim]

I've been asked to weigh in by a number of forum members. I'm not totally sure why this is such a hot button issue, other than for the political/sociological things surrounding this Cahn fellow. And as best as I can tell, Nell has NOT made any of these political/sociological issues as part of her main concern. Hey, maybe I missed something, but as far as I can tell, Nell's main concern is for the "spiritual" side of what Cahn had presented in the address that morning. To be sure, some of his speech that morning was filled with all sorts of "raw, raw, let's go get em" kind of hype....but I didn't hear any "let's go hang all the homosexuals" or "let's make America a Christian theocracy". And to be sure, let's give our sister Nell the benefit of the doubt that she is not a proponent of any such thing(s). Let's not impugn things to her that she has not even faintly proposed.

And for you guys out there who are whining about me "protecting a woman",...oh just go put a sock in it, will you. Nell can handle herself quite well as I'm sure most of you can see. She doesn't need me or any of us men out here to assist her in any way.

Discuss, and even argue WHAT SHE HAS POSTED AND NOT WHAT SHE HAS NOT POSTED OR EVEN IMPLIED.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I've been asked to weigh in by a number of forum members. I'm not totally sure why this is such a hot button issue, other than for the political/sociological things surrounding this Cahn fellow. And as best as I can tell, Nell has NOT made any of these political/sociological issues as part of her main concern. Hey, maybe I missed something, but as far as I can tell, Nell's main concern is for the "spiritual" side of what Cahn had presented in the address that morning. To be sure, some of his speech that morning was filled with all sorts of "raw, raw, let's go get em" kind of hype....but I didn't hear any "let's go hang all the homosexuals" or "let's make America a Christian theocracy". And to be sure, let's give our sister Nell the benefit of the doubt that she is not a proponent of any such thing(s). Let's not impugn things to her that she has not even faintly proposed.

And for you guys out there who are whining about me "protecting a woman",...oh just go put a sock in it, will you. Nell can handle herself quite well as I'm sure most of you can see. She doesn't need me or any of us men out here to assist her in any way.

Discuss, and even argue WHAT SHE HAS POSTED AND NOT WHAT SHE HAS NOT POSTED OR EVEN IMPLIED.

Yes. Let's face it, if God be with Cahn and Nell who can be against them?

I've prolly been the most outrageously outspoken against what I perceive to be nothing but silliness. But that doesn't mean I represent Gods' position. It could be that it's I that is wrong, wrong, wrong.

After all, here we are only a month into the Shemitah year of 2014-2015 and look, Ebola is just breaking out into a global pandemic, and now it's come to America, and about to get loose here.

If that's not foreboding I don't know what is.

So Cahn could be right. God could be coming, on a Shemitah year, to spank America very hard, for not repenting and returning to Him, by bringing the plague of Ebola. A plague that might be of Biblical proportions.

And it could turn out that, Cahn could possibly be the SOTA - The Seer Of The Age.

And this plague from God could become known as the Shemitah Ebola Plague.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

let's give our sister Nell the benefit of the doubt that she is not a proponent of any such thing(s). Let's not impugn things to her that she has not even faintly proposed.
Discuss, and even argue WHAT SHE HAS POSTED AND NOT WHAT SHE HAS NOT POSTED OR EVEN IMPLIED.

Good point UntoHim... Okay Nell, you've read the Shemitah book... what are you proposing..what do we need to do? Are we in trouble?

This is from Cahn's "official" facebook site:
SHEMITAH'S FIRST 2 WEEKS BRING OMINOUS SIGNS
Stock market tumbles, Ebola comes to U.S., ISIS on move in Iraq
Blood moons, plummeting stock markets and a growing Ebola pandemic dominated the headlines this past week.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Dave

Good point UntoHim... Okay Nell, you've read the Shemitah book... what are you proposing..what do we need to do? Are we in trouble?

This is from Cahn's "official" facebook site:
SHEMITAH'S FIRST 2 WEEKS BRING OMINOUS SIGNS
Stock market tumbles, Ebola comes to U.S., ISIS on move in Iraq
Blood moons, plummeting stock markets and a growing Ebola pandemic dominated the headlines this past week.

Dave,

Good questions. Here's what I propose. I propose that you have a quiet time with Jesus and ask him the same questions.

Are we in trouble? As awareness has noted, turn on the news. Then draw your own conclusions. If that doesn't drive you to your knees, I don't know what it would take!

Cahn says this:

"As I wrote at the beginning of this book (The Mystery of the Shemitah), we must be careful with regard to date-setting as to when certain events must come about. The issue is not of dates but of the call to repentance and return. My concern with the focusing on dates is that it can take away from the central matter of repentance. I have warned of a coming judgment, but I have also cautioned against putting the workings of God in a box with regard to the timing of that judgment.

God doesn't have to act in the same way or according to the same timing as He has in the past. Prophetic signs do not generally happen routinely or according to a schedule. There are Shemitah years that dramatically manifest the mystery and others that do not. Nothing has to happen in the next Shemitah.

Having said that, I must also give a second caution: God can work as he has in the past and can bring judgment at the time of the Shemitah. In view of both cautions, it is wise that one should be aware of the Shemitah and its days." ibid. pp. 237-238

I also propose that you forget about Cahn. Forget about any US-Israel connection that may exist. Read his book/s or don't. Is the US a Christian Nation? All I know for sure is that the US is a nation with Christians in it.

I further advise against putting God in a box. I'm pretty sure that whatever box we can find is too small.

Another of Cahn's messages: as long as there is a warning, there is hope. If there is no hope, there would only be judgment.

May God's wisdom and blessings be with us all--

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by The Mystery of the Shemitah

The issue is not of dates but of the call to repentance and return.

If Shemitah is warning this is important: What does Cahn mean by "return?"

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

If Shemitah is warning this is important: What does Cahn mean by "return?"

Return to God--as individuals. This is different for every person. I know what I need to turn away from and return to God.

For Cahn, a return to God looks like this:

“The Shemitah has a purpose. It manifests God’s sovereignty and dominion over all things and exposes the illusion of man’s sovereignty and dominion. It declares that all blessings come from God. It calls man away from the physical realm to the spiritual. It calls him to return to God. Thus, the Shemitah is necessary. And when dealing with a culture or civilization enmeshed in materialism, prosperity, carnality, idolatry, arrogance, self-absorption, and the idea that man is sovereign to do however he pleases---the Shemitah becomes even more necessary.

In the day of the Shemitah’s coming, illusions are exposed, entanglements are broken, pride is humbled, the gods are judged, and the idols are wiped away---even the illusions, entanglements, idols, and gods in the lives of His own people.

The Last Shemitah
Even when it comes in the form of judgment, the Shemitah is ultimately a manifestation of mercy in that it reminds, calls back, and warns----in view of a greater Shemitah yet to come. This greater Shemitah concerns not so much nations, but every individual, every life. It is the last Shemitah.

The last Shemita declares that all things---our lives, our beings, our breath---comes as gifts from God. Of ourselves we have nothing. All our notions of ownership are an illusion; all our pride, a deception. We are not sovereign but completely dependent. Everything we have---our possessions, our money, our riches, every moment of our lives---everything has been given to us.

Every heartbeat is borrowed. … " Ibid pp. 247-248

Nell

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Nell

Cahn says this:

"As I wrote at the beginning of this book (The Mystery of the Shemitah), we must be careful with regard to date-setting as to when certain events must come about. The issue is not of dates but of the call to repentance and return. My concern with the focusing on dates is that it can take away from the central matter of repentance. I have warned of a coming judgment, but I have also cautioned against putting the workings of God in a box with regard to the timing of that judgment.

Having set the dates, Cahn now cautions against date setting. Audacious self contradiction. He's hedging his bet.

God doesn't have to act in the same way or according to the same timing as He has in the past. Prophetic signs do not generally happen routinely or according to a schedule. There are Shemitah years that dramatically manifest the mystery and others that do not. Nothing has to happen in the next Shemitah.

God is omnipotent and absolutely free by definition. We didn't need Cahn to tell us that. He's the one who told us about the schedule. He's hedging and contradicting himself again. This guy should be a politician.

Having said that, I must also give a second caution: God can work as he has in the past and can bring judgment at the time of the Shemitah. In view of both cautions, it is wise that one should be aware of the Shemitah and its days.

God can do what he's done in the past. Who knew? And God can do other things. Brilliant. I'm surprised he let this gem slip out to those who haven't bought his book. This is PH.D. level stuff here.

I also propose that you forget about Cahn. Forget about any US-Israel connection that may exist.

Forgotten.

Read his book/s or don't.

Won't.

Is the US a Christian Nation? All I know for sure is that the US is a nation with Christians in it.

Right.

I further advise against putting God in a box. I'm pretty sure that whatever box we can find is too small.

Insofar as Cahn was saying anything, he was putting God in a box.

Another of Cahn's messages: as long as there is a warning, there is hope. If there is no hope, there would only be judgment.

There may or may not be a warning according to Cahn. So, it seems there may or may not be a cause for hope.

May God's wisdom and blessings be with us all--

Amen

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell quoting Cahn

It calls man away from the physical realm to the spiritual. It calls him to return to God.

I'm in trouble on two counts.

First, Shemitah calls for a "return to God."

Me: "God, according to the Shemitah you are sending I have to return to you."
God: "Yes my son. That's the very purpose of my Shemitah."
Me: "So Lord, I'm going to have to leave you for awhile, so I can return."
God: "I'll miss you. Be sure to come back ... or I might decide to smite you. I love you."

And I'm in trouble secondly in regards to: "It calls man away from the physical realm to the spiritual."

Isn't that death? How else am I gonna come away from the physical realm and enter into the spiritual realm? Is Cahn, as a seer, speaking metaphorically? Or is he, again as a seer, claiming we can enter into the spiritual realm here and now, while in the physical realm?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm in trouble on two counts.

First, Shemitah calls for a "return to God."

Me: "God, according to the Shemitah you are sending I have to return to you."
God: "Yes my son. That's the very purpose of my Shemitah."
Me: "So Lord, I'm going to have to leave you for awhile, so I can return."

God: Silly child. Be at peace. You're waaaaay overthinking this. Don't go anywhere. Just stay put. Just keep talking to me.

Originally Posted by awareness

And I'm in trouble secondly in regards to: "It calls man away from the physical realm to the spiritual."

Isn't that death? How else am I gonna come away from the physical realm and enter into the spiritual realm?

I think you're right. He does give it the title "The Last Shemitah". It could be the death of the believers prior to the Lord's return. It could also allude to the actual second coming. Hard to say.

Originally Posted by awareness

Is Cahn, as a seer, speaking metaphorically? Or is he, again as a seer, claiming we can enter into the spiritual realm here and now, while in the physical realm?

Yes.

[OBW]

Sounds extremely gnostic. Very different from the teachings of Christ.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by OBW

Sounds extremely gnostic. Very different from the teachings of Christ.

It's interesting that Mike makes this statement because in 1 Timothy 1:4 it states, "...not to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies that promote speculations rather than the divine training that is known by faith." and 1 Timothy 6:20 states, "...guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the profane chatter and contradiction of what is falsely called knowledge (gr. gnosis); by professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith." (NRSV) It is widely held that Paul was speaking about the Gnostics in these passages when Paul was writing to the pastor of Ephesus where the Gnostics were influential although this influence was predominately much later during the time of John.

Is Timothy 1 speaking about Cahn's type of teaching here?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Sounds extremely gnostic. Very different from the teachings of Christ.

I think we all got more than enough of being spellbound by new -- only I have discovered this -- kind of revelations from the Bible, during our time in Lee's local church.

And now we come across Cahn, who sees something new in scripture. And it's lathered all over with Old Testament favors.

I'm shooting from memory now, so please, I beg you, fact check the following. I think I can back it up if challenged.

Christianity started early-on to be very diversified. But there were three main veins, or ways of salvation, being claimed :

One was: Salvation by keeping the Law.
Two was: Salvation by gnosis (hidden teachings).
And three was: Salvation by grace, or faith.

From my limited understanding, but plenty of reading, there were many different kinds of Gnostics too, but again, three main types, back then: Jewish, Christian, and Pagan.

And I would place Cahn mainly in the Jewish camp, with Christian mixed in.

Still, to be kind to sis Nell, and maybe be a good boy for UntoHim, that doesn't mean Cahn is not a seer.

Our question here is: Seer of what? And Nell is pouring her heart out to tell us. Bless her pea-pickin little heart.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by OBW

Sounds extremely gnostic. Very different from the teachings of Christ.

Perhaps 500 years into the Reformation, Protestants have grown weary of not having a papal figurehead to function as "Oracle."

I, for one, don't want to have special knowledge. Just look at what it did to Gollum!

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by awareness

And I would place Cahn mainly in the Jewish camp, with Christian mixed in.

The Bible warns against people like Jonathan Cahn:

"But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons." (1 Timothy 4:1, MKJV. Emphasis mine.)

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

Christianity started early-on to be very diversified. But there were three main veins, or ways of salvation, being claimed :

One was: Salvation by keeping the Law.
Two was: Salvation by gnosis (hidden teachings).
And three was: Salvation by grace, or faith.

You describe these as competing truths. But if gnosis were knowledge instead of hidden truth, then all three would appear to be needed.

1. You have to hear to come to realize your real need and the solution (an aspect of knowledge).
2. Your only "act" required in receiving it is to ask for it. God does the saving.
3. Besides that initial step, salvation continues throughout life as a dance of our actions and God's grace and mercy. We strive to "walk by the Spirit" and the result is that love for God and neighbor is expressed. Progressively, not all at once. And sitting and waiting for it to just happen is not an option.

So we can do nothing to make that first step, but we have to be involved to move forward. And we move forward through our understanding of the requirement upon us and the grace that God gives us to do it.

But there are no hidden codes. It is really fairly well spelled-out. It is mainly those who don't like what is so well spelled-out that seek to reinterpret scripture into a rubric of codes, "spells," harbingers, etc.

That would definitely be Lee. And would appear to be Cahn.

[OBW]

Are we in trouble? . . . turn on the news. Then draw your own conclusions.

But no more in trouble than the rest of the world. Look at the ongoing wars in the Middle East, the conflict in Hong Kong. The ethnic strife in parts of Southeast Asia. The rise and fall of bloody conflict in varying parts of Africa.

When compared with so much of the world, it is still hard to understand where it is much better except for maybe in the resorts of the Caribbean (except when a hurricane approaches or hits).

Is everything rosy? No. But it never has been. The alleged blessing of the past are found by selective filters and the problems of the present are only seen as different from the past by changing filters.

What is the criteria for punishment? Bankruptcy? There have been bankruptcies since the beginning of business. Evidence of either unwillingness to change with the times or other problems. Kodak essentially is no more. But not because of some curse on America.

But when someone gathers huge amounts of data and decides to look at it with a view to find what they want and ignore what doesn't fit their premises, they very often succeed.

Still, how cursed are we? Show me more than anecdotal evidence. An example does not a pattern create. And the plural of anecdotes is not "data."

[OBW]

Is the US a Christian Nation? All I know for sure is that the US is a nation with Christians in it.

Same can be said for Russia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, Burundi, Myanmar, Vietnam, China, England, Sweden, Saudi Arabia, Zaire, Canada, Cuba, France, Germany, Morocco, Libya, and essentially all others.

Where is the differentiation? Is it really about Christian? Or about Jewish? Are we really talking about a "Jewish covenant" nation? That seems to be what the whole premise surrounds.

And I guess we all fail because few of our sons were circumcised on the 8th day. If at all, it was probably in the first 3-4 days. It goes downhill from there.

So which laws that Israel was supposed to keep are we required to keep to maintain our status as favored nation in the State Department of Heaven?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I've been asked to weigh in by a number of forum members. I'm not totally sure why this is such a hot button issue, other than for the political/sociological things surrounding this Cahn fellow. And as best as I can tell, Nell has NOT made any of these political/sociological issues as part of her main concern. Hey, maybe I missed something, but as far as I can tell, Nell's main concern is for the "spiritual" side of what Cahn had presented in the address that morning. To be sure, some of his speech that morning was filled with all sorts of "raw, raw, let's go get em" kind of hype....but I didn't hear any "let's go hang all the homosexuals" or "let's make America a Christian theocracy". And to be sure, let's give our sister Nell the benefit of the doubt that she is not a proponent of any such thing(s). Let's not impugn things to her that she has not even faintly proposed.

And for you guys out there who are whining about me "protecting a woman",...oh just go put a sock in it, will you. Nell can handle herself quite well as I'm sure most of you can see. She doesn't need me or any of us men out here to assist her in any way.

Discuss, and even argue WHAT SHE HAS POSTED AND NOT WHAT SHE HAS NOT POSTED OR EVEN IMPLIED.

UntoHim,

Here's what I continue to question: Why is this kind of "discipline" necessary? This is a forum where Christians come to discuss a topic related to Christian issues, right? Yet the men who do the majority of the posting behave like a pack of attack dogs when someone presents a topic with which they disagree. Then, these Christian men have to be warned against "flaming" another member; warned against straw-man arguments. A Christian man is whining because he believe you are "protecting a woman". Me. Nell. Is he reading his own words?

Then OBW comes up with this:
"Sounds extremely gnostic. Very different from the teachings of Christ."

THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST? When did you become concerned about the teachings of Jesus Christ? Did Jesus Christ teach you how to speak to me on this forum? What hypocrisy!

Unto, I'm not telling you something you don't know. The reason people don't post on this forum is because of this kind of garbage...poor treatment by Christian men with a pack mentality who say one thing and do another. People are driven away from posting on this forum in many cases because they have been hurt enough, or, because they don't have the heart to take on the pack.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here's what I continue to question: Why is this kind of "discipline" necessary? This is a forum where Christians come to discuss a topic related to Christian issues, right? Yet the men who do the majority of the posting behave like a pack of attack dogs when someone presents a topic with which they disagree.

Unto, I'm not telling you something you don't know. The reason people don't post on this forum is because of this kind of garbage...poor treatment by Christian men with a pack mentality who say one thing and do another.
Nell

I totally disagree with this post by Nell.

This is a gross misrepresentation of this forum and its members.

No forum member "attacked" you nor the gospel of God, rather they disagreed with your message from Cahn.

It's a shame you have made this personal and discriminatory against men.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I totally disagree with this post by Nell.

This is a gross misrepresentation of this forum and its members.

No forum member "attacked" you nor the gospel of God, rather they disagreed with your message from Cahn.

It's a shame you have made this personal and discriminatory against men.

Ohio,

Why did UntoHim feel it necessary to weigh-in? Why was I being "protected"? Why was I being flamed? Why was I being barraged with straw-man arguments? Feels like an attack to me. Maybe your standards for an "attack" are different from mine, but please don't tell me that I wasn't attacked.

There are ways to disagree without being flamed, and without straw-man arguments. We are all Christians here. Can we not behave as such?

Discriminate against men? Really? There are about 2 women who post on this forum. All the rest are men....right? Is that discrimination against men or is it simply stating the obvious? I could have played the "discrimination against women" card, but I don't believe that to be the case.

Don't make this into something it's not. Can I not respond to a post without a straw-man being stood up?

Do you believe the teachings of Jesus Christ are in line with flaming, straw-man arguments, and complaints of protecting women as stated in UntoHim's weigh-in? I don't. Why not speak to that point...without flaming...without straw-men...? The obvious answer is no. "You have not so learned Christ."

This is not about Cahn, but about who we are as believers. The posts on this forum are the gospel we preach. This is a good place to discuss all kinds of Christian topics, but the first thing to be displayed in everything we say is Jesus and a love for the brothers.

Yes. I called out OBW...as he has done to me many times. It's a two-way street.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

Why did UntoHim feel it necessary to weigh-in? Why was I being "protected"? Why was I being flamed? Why was I being barraged with straw-man arguments? Feels like an attack to me. Maybe your standards for an "attack" are different from mine, but please don't tell me that I wasn't attacked.

There are ways to disagree without being flamed, and without straw-man arguments. We are all Christians here. Can we not behave as such?

Discriminate against men? Really? There are about 2 women who post on this forum. All the rest are men....right? Is that discrimination against men or is it simply stating the obvious? I could have played the "discrimination against women" card, but I don't believe that to be the case.

Don't make this into something it's not. Can I not respond to a post without a straw-man being stood up?

Do you believe the teachings of Jesus Christ are in line with flaming, straw-man arguments, and complaints of protecting women as stated in UntoHim's weigh-in? I don't. Why not speak to that point...without flaming...without straw-men...? The obvious answer is no. "You have not so learned Christ."

This is not about Cahn, but about who we are as believers. The posts on this forum are the gospel we preach. This is a good place to discuss all kinds of Christian topics, but the first thing to be displayed in everything we say is Jesus and a love for the brothers.

Yes. I called out OBW...as he has done to me many times. It's a two-way street.

Nell

Listen Nell, it's really simple, you said in your last post, "the men who do the majority of the posting behave like a pack of attack dogs when someone presents a topic with which they disagree." Since I have the most posts here, I posted my disagreement. You called me an "attack dog." Shame on you!

You also made this all about men. If you have a problem with what OBW has written about Johnathan Cahn, then take it up with him. Cordially please.

How would you like it if I grouped "all you crazy women" together? How would you like it if I called "all you crazy women" a flock of vultures?

That's right. You don't like it. So stop doing it yourself.

Peace.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I totally disagree with this post by Nell.

This is a gross misrepresentation of this forum and its members.

No forum member "attacked" you nor the gospel of God, rather they disagreed with your message from Cahn.

It's a shame you have made this personal and discriminatory against men.

I second this post by Ohio. In fact, Nell has been dishing up hogwash from Jonathan Cahn expecting all members to believe it as the new gospel. The fact that the majority happens to disagree with her adulation of all things Cahn does not imply that we are attacking her person. It is only a disagreement, not an attack.

And she has not been holding back every time. She has written some strong words. Personally, I have never written anything bad about her person nor have I attacked her person, and I do not recall any of the "men" attacking her person.

And she only responds to awareness.

This is a great example of brinkmanship.

[UntoHim]

Ok, let's get back to the subject at hand.

I'm going to ask everybody to use the PM system for things that are best handled in private.

Thank's for your understanding.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

This is a forum where Christians come to discuss a topic related to Christian issues, right? Yet the men who do the majority of the posting behave like a pack of attack dogs ...

Surely you jest sister. Cahn was presented in the OP. Sure I blundered a couple of times. Maybe more. UntoHim called me out for it. I was wrong. Mea Culpa.

But by a large we're talking about Cahn. And because we're already gun-shy, from the LC, we'er very skeptical and critical of charismatic MEN. And why not?

You're characterization of us as attack dogs has no basis in reality. There's no history of us jumping a newbie and chewing him or her up and spitting them out.

In fact, Dave is a newbie and it is you that is calling him an attack dog. Just who is the attack dog.

I thought we were doing fine in our discussions. We were finding out about repenting and returning. And even a claim that we can, leave the physical realm, and enter the spiritual realm, while still living in the physical realm. That sure got my attention. I'd like to do that.

Sure, it looks like Gnosticism. And I pointed out if so it's Jewish Gnosticism. But I also pointed out that none of our criticism means that Cahn is not a seer. If Cahn is actually seeing what God is doing today all of our criticisms amounts to nothing.

So why take it personal sis? It's in God's hands. Right?

Now let me have some fun nipping at yer heels ... Dogs do like to play.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Listen Nell, it's really simple, you said in your last post, "the men who do the majority of the posting behave like a pack of attack dogs when someone presents a topic with which they disagree." Since I have the most posts here, I posted my disagreement. You called me an "attack dog." Shame on you!

You also made this all about men. If you have a problem with what OBW has written about Johnathan Cahn, then take it up with him. Cordially please.

How would you like it if I grouped "all you crazy women" together? How would you like it if I called "all you crazy women" a flock of vultures?

That's right. You don't like it. So stop doing it yourself.

Peace.

Ohio,

I am genuinely sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention to call you an attack dog. I didn't single you out. I wasn't aware that you had the most posts. That was also not my intention. I do apologize for that.

I made the observation about behavior. I actually said "behave like a pack..." There is a difference between a person's behavior and the "person." It is behavior I was calling into question. I do apologize that I wasn't clear.

If I was behaving like a crazy woman, you could say to me "Nell! You're behaving like a crazy woman!" To say "you ARE a crazy woman," that wouldn't be good. I tried to be very careful not to do that.

To answer your specific question, I wouldn't like it if you grouped me in with a bunch of crazy women.

I don't have a problem with what OBW has written about Jonathan Cahn. I do have a problem what I believe to be a discrepancy between what OBW has posted to me in the form of flaming and straw-men arguments at me, then, faulting Cahn for not conforming to "teachings of Christ". Do you have any comments on this?

As for cordially, I believe that all of you gentlemen could communicate to those you disagree with with a little bit more cordially, as could I. Do you agree?

As I have also stated, it's extremely difficult to discuss a book or books with several parties who have in fact, not read the book. What's missing is context. I don't know how I could possibly provide the context someone would need to adequately and accurately understand what I'm trying to convey. Can you put yourself in my position? The objections to Cahn's work has been all over the place, making it even more difficult.

I will also say this, I don't feel obligated to respond to those who communicate with mockery toward me. Awareness has communicated with me with respect and I appreciate that. So I will reply to him. That is my liberty. I obviously don't communicate ONLY with Awareness. I'm communicating with you, aren't I?

Finally, it is the job of the speaker to communicate respect to the audience. Without respect, communication does not take place. I apologize if I conveyed any disrespect to you or others. That was not my intention.

It's worth noting that men and women communicate differently. Maybe all of us could remember that. I'll try if you will. Will that work for you?

Nell

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

To be sure, some of his speech that morning was filled with all sorts of "raw, raw, let's go get em" kind of hype....but I didn't hear any "let's go hang all the homosexuals" or "let's make America a Christian theocracy". And to be sure, let's give our sister Nell the benefit of the doubt that she is not a proponent of any such thing(s). Let's not impugn things to her that she has not even faintly proposed.

The problem is that some have already connected the dots between Cahn and at least one major "take back the country" Christian theocracy group. I really don't think that Nell has that kind of thing in mind. But the evidence of the whole line of reasoning is available to observe. And you don't have to say it in any particular speech or book. It is part of the platform. And the way that the rhetoric is offered, even when the "take back the country" words are omitted, it can only be meaningful in that kind of environment.

So to say that she is pushing more than she wants to push would not be an error. Some may agree with that push. But to deny that it is happening is to ignore the whole of the teachings that you support.

Sort of like those who suggest that we can still read Nee and Lee and get a lot out of them. Just beware of the bad parts.

And I will assert here (because this is not private) that nothing has been provided that makes Cahn's teachings acceptable even if you exclude the Christian Nation rhetoric that is in it. (And you don't have to say "Christian nation" to be preaching it.) The whole premise that the specific warnings in the OT of which Cahn speaks are intended to be applicable to the NT in any way has never been established. Just claimed to be true. Since it would appear that we are talking about teachings that (so far) cannot be established as made in the Bible, then we have to assume that the perpetrator of them is some kind of false prophet. And those that follow him are blinded to his falsehoods.

They ignore every possible avenue of discussion. Just suggest that we need to talk to Jesus during our quiet time about it. Any time I do, I get the real sense that it is a waste of perfectly good time to converse with God. He is not interested. He does not enlighten anything that would make it even seem possibly true. Instead I am pointed back to the kind of Christian life that does not lean on earthly kingdoms for my blessings. That relies on me being loving to my heathen neighbor, the gay guy I work with, the unmarried woman (and mother of 2) living with her latest boyfriend.

And while I am one of the people who thinks that the places for "tough love" are limited, being blunt when you see what you believe to be serious error, even damaging error, is not a breach of the call to love. Within the body of Christ, love includes admonishing one another.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Surely you jest sister. Cahn was presented in the OP. Sure I blundered a couple of times. Maybe more. UntoHim called me out for it. I was wrong. Mea Culpa.

But by a large we're talking about Cahn. And because we're already gun-shy, from the LC, we'er very skeptical and critical of charismatic MEN. And why not?

I get that. I was there too. I think this statement by Jesse Penn-Lewis has helped me more than any piece of advice I've received since my departure. That is "if you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know."

I'm still pouring over Cahn's work. Looking for the holes. It may seem to you all that I've formed an opinion, but I'm trying to remain neutral until I know more. I think we could forget that Cahn is the messenger. I'm looking for God in the message. He also has an amount of world history, especially beginning in 1917 following through to 2015 which is pretty interesting. It's hard to argue with history, but I know how that goes.

Originally Posted by awareness

You're characterization of us as attack dogs has no basis in reality. There's no history of us jumping a newbie and chewing him or her up and spitting them out.

In fact, Dave is a newbie and it is you that is calling him an attack dog. Just who is the attack dog.

Sorry about that. I've been feeling like a target. I've been doctoring the teeth marks on my little pea-pickin' heart. I will repeat that I was referring to the behavior of an attack dog and not to your person. Sorry I didn't make that more clear. Still, I don't see myself as the aggressor here. There has been plenty of that going around.

I'm not talking about jumping a newbie. I'm talking about jumping ME.

Originally Posted by awareness

I thought we were doing fine in our discussions. We were finding out about repenting and returning. And even a claim that we can, leave the physical realm, and enter the spiritual realm, while still living in the physical realm. That sure got my attention. I'd like to do that.

You and I are fine. I enjoyed that conversation too.

Originally Posted by awareness

Sure, it looks like Gnosticism. And I pointed out if so it's Jewish Gnosticism. But I also pointed out that none of our criticism means that Cahn is not a seer. If Cahn is actually seeing what God is doing today all of our criticisms amounts to nothing.

So why take it personal sis? It's in God's hands. Right?

I feel like I'm a Texas Rangers short-stop lined up against the (5-1) Dallas Cowboys offensive line.

I don't know about Gnosticism. I haven't looked into it. I do know that you can't treat people with disrespect then criticize someone else for not following the teachings of Christ.

Originally Posted by awareness

Now let me have some fun nipping at yer heels ... Dogs do like to play.

You are sooooo bad.

Nell

[Dave]

From Cahn’s Harbinger
"But there was another civilization that was likewise founded on God’s word, dedicated to His will, and consecrated to His purposes, from its very inception – America. Those who came to these shores four centuries ago to found a new civilization did so by dedicating it to God, committing it for His purposes and glory. America was to be a city on a hill, a civilization to which others would look. It was to be a holy commonwealth. And so they modeled it after Israel of the Bible. They brought forth its first governments in the name of Jesus and for the glory of God."

As I think most of us would agree that the above information is not rooted in accuracy and thinking about the possibility that every seven years God could pour out his wrath considering the Shemitah I think Cahn got it wrong and I don’t know if it was intentional so as to have us distracted because he is a Christian Jewish Rabbi or what but God isn’t upset with America for the reasons he cited. God may be upset with America but He is most likely upset with the immorality of the Jews and the turning away of the Jews from God’s chosen Son and America’s support for Israel which harbors the largest concentration of Jews in the world. Many of them are atheists and only go through the motions when they enter the synagogue. I am certainly not anti-Jewish as many of my friends are of Jewish heritage and attend church with me. But, I just think he got it wrong. Maybe God is upset with America but it is because of America’s unwavering support for Israel. We have poured billions into that country. If God has poured out his wrath on anyone it has been Israel and the Jewish people over the past 2000 years and the Bible spells it out as why:

Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas the high priest, in whose house the scribes and the elders had gathered. Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has blasphemed!...what is your verdict? They answered, “He deserves death. Then they spat in his face and struck him; and some slapped him. They bound him, led him away, and handed him over to Pilate the governor….Jesus stood before the governor...the chief priests persuaded the crowds to…have Jesus killed…they shouted…Let him be crucified!...His blood be on us and our children". Matthew 26:57, 65-67 27:2, 11-23, 25 (NRSV)

Yes, Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” Luke 23:34 (NRSV) and Paul notes in Acts 17, “…God has overlooked the times of human ignorance…” Acts 17:30 (NRSV) However, Paul writes in 1 Thess., “For you, brothers and sisters…suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone by hindering us…Thus, they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last.” 1 Thess. 2:14-16 (NRSV)

Later in the 3rd century the church father Origen said: “It was right that the city in which Jesus underwent such sufferings should be completely destroyed and that the Jewish nation be overthrown” (Against Celsus 4, 22)

I am not going to illustrate with more information but I think we are fully aware of the history of the Jewish nation and God has time and again given them an opportunity to turn to Him but they continually reject Him. That is why Cahn got it wrong. God may be upset with America for its unwavering support for Israel but not for the reasons cited by Cahn.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Dave

...That is why Cahn got it wrong. God may be upset with America for its unwavering support for Israel but not for the reasons cited by Cahn.

You neglected to say "In my opinion, that is why Cahn got it wrong."

Then, "God may be upset with America for its unwavering support for Israel but, in my opinion, not for the reasons cited by Cahn."

Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

This is what Cahn called putting God in a box. You could be right, but it's still just an opinion. Until all is manifest, we have interpretations, thoughts, etc., but, in my opinion, it would be better not to speak with authority about who is right and who is wrong. Who knows God's reasoning but God himself?

BTW, is God "upset with America for its unwavering support for Israel"? How do you know that? I didn't know that. We are told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. It would seem that God would be upset if we didn't have unwavering support for Israel. Hummmmm.


Nell

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

You neglected to say "In my opinion, that is why Cahn got it wrong."

Then, "God may be upset with America for its unwavering support for Israel but, in my opinion, not for the reasons cited by Cahn."

Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

This is what Cahn called putting God in a box. You could be right, but it's still just an opinion. Until all is manifest, we have interpretations, thoughts, etc., but, in my opinion, it would be better not to speak with authority about who is right and who is wrong. Who knows God's reasoning but God himself?

BTW, is God "upset with America for its unwavering support for Israel"? How do you know that? I didn't know that. We are told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. It would seem that God would be upset if we didn't have unwavering support for Israel. Hummmmm.

Nell

First, it is just not an opinion that the quote I listed of his is wrong. He is trying to rewrite the history of the United States. I have written other posts in the past in this regard.

Second, I didn't speak with my authority. I quoted specific scriptures from the NT showing that not only in the Gospels but even in the epistles the Jews have opposed God. I quoted from Paul, a Jew, who indicated that God's wrath was upon them. In addition, I quoted a third century church father regarding his approval of the destruction of Jerusalem and Judah.

Third, look at the history of the Jews who were persecuted throughout the middle ages and to this day. If you are reading what is going on in countries like France who have created their own swastika you know that it is not going to be pretty: http://tabletmag.com/scroll/160800/j...ators-in-paris

Fourth, I pray for peace for Israel everyday but that doesn't change what is about to happen if God pours out his wrath. Jesus prayed to the Father to forgive them for they know not what they do but I think the Father may have had other plans.

Peace to you Nell. Take care.

[OBW]

We are told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

It would seem to me that the inhabitants of the nation of Israel were told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. I'm not suggesting that we be hostile toward Jerusalem, or the nation of Israel.

But it seems that Jerusalem was built, destroyed because of the wrath of God, then rebuilt. It then remained until Christ came, and the church spread sufficiently from that place then it was once again destroyed and the Jews scattered. So until it was rebuilt by the Roman empire starting sometime in or after 135. It is interesting that there have been times during which no Jew was allowed in the city except on one day each year.

And it might be reasonable to assume that the declaration that "they shall prosper that love thee" is the reason for the general poor economic conditions in the area. But that is deceptive. It seems that many of the nations around it are quite wealthy due to oil. That wealth may not reach the masses, but it is not for lack it being there.

But the real point it, what are we supposed to love about Jerusalem after the year 70?

I find it interesting that saying that something is not necessarily applicable in a way and time other than that for which it was expressly stated are referred to as "putting God in a box," yet those who insist that it has to be generally applicable no matter what context are not "putting God in a box."

The issue is not whether God is or is not in a box. The question is whether God's intent with respect to any particular thing is general, broad and limitless, or is specific and therefore limited. To agree with any statement by God that is limited in scope is not putting God in a box. Neither is agreeing with a statement that is broad and limitless taking God out of a box.

But as a bit of an extreme example, there are people who read that God is not willing that any should perish and conclude that hell can only be temporary and that everyone is eventually in heaven (whatever that actually is). To them, to suggest anything else is to "put God in a box." It is to place limits on God. But my reading of the Bible suggests that God has limited himself in that matter. On one hand, his will would have everyone become "his." But the record in scripture would indicate that he has restrained himself in the matter and determined that his righteousness cannot be ignored.

It would seem that God would be upset if we didn't have unwavering support for Israel.

It might seem that way. If you read things in certain ways. But I have not been convinced that this is simply the truth because it is once there in the Bible in a particular OT context.

Don't misunderstand me. I believe that we should generally support Israel. But the nation of Israel as we know it in this day and age is not entirely righteous in all of its ways. Standing up and asserting that some of its actions are reprehensible is called for. But I would still agree that we should defend it from the onslaught of its neighbors who seek to simply push every Jew into the ocean to drown. It is the neighborly thing to do. It is the right thing to do.

And yet, if the issue was the continual onslaught by Israel to turn Jordan into a dust bowl just because of ancient animosities, I would similarly agree with defending Jordan.

[awareness]

But Dave drives home a good point. We don't know the mind of God so we can't know who or what God is judging, if anything, or why.

Maybe we should have enough faith to leave all that up to God. And trying to find patterns in the Bible is nothing other than trying to force God into a box.

[UntoHim]

Actually, according to the apostle Paul, "we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:15), and this is not something in the abstract, but is absolutely related to the knowledge of God's Word. And guess what?...This having "the mind of Christ" is also related to judgment - check out the word immediately preceding: "The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?".

Harold is right about the faith part...however our faith is not rooted in nothing...it is rooted and hopefully grounded in the Word of God. If our faith is not rooted in the Word of God, we might very well end up like the Jews of the 1st century, who rejected the Son of God even though He was the very embodiment of the Word of God.

To be sure, to reject Cahn or his teachings is not a matter of the core of the Christian faith. In fact, it may not even be considered as secondary, but then again, I don't see where Nell has made Cahn or his teachings as a matter of the faith in any way, shape or form.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Actually, according to the apostle Paul, "we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:15), and this is not something in the abstract, but is absolutely related to the knowledge of God's Word. And guess what?...This having "the mind of Christ" is also related to judgment - check out the word immediately preceding: "The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?".

It has been a while now, but I read through this general portion of 1 Corinthians a few times a while back and began to question some of the assumptions concerning what Paul is talking about here. For starters, who is the "we" that he is mostly referring to?

I begin to think that there is a pattern here that at least hints that the "we" is not actually all believers, but Paul and the others who teach. The chapter begins with Paul's comments on the message he initially brought to Corinth. Then suddenly, in verse 4, he changes from "me" and "my" to "we." And consistent with this section that goes from early in chapter 1 all the way into at least part of chapter 4, "we" has been a collection of teachers that the Corinthians have learned from. So what is different here that it would now be instead about the Corinthians? Immediately after this (and still in the same discussion of the in-fighting over which are the better teachers) "we" refers to Paul, Apollos, Cephas, etc., and "you" refers to the Corinthians. Besides the insertions of chapters and verses by others at a later date, where is there a distinction to cause the "we" in chapter 2 to be different?

Note that Paul is referring to "my message" and "we . . . speak a message of wisdom" and "we declare God's wisdom."

This chapter is part of the discussion of the teaching and teachers that have come to and been heard by the Corinthians. It is not about the things that the Corinthians preach to the world in some kind of message, but of the things taught to them. The whole discussion is about what comes to the Corinthian believers, not what they speak to others. So there is, at least as written, not really any reference here to what kind of spiritual insight we have, but rather the spiritual insight they, the teachers, have.

This runs smack against the things we were taught in the LRC. And that we like to think was clearly talking about us. But that is, at a minimum, a strained interpretation. The "truth" that I see emerging from much of the NT is that there really are teachers that have more insight than the rest of us do. That have been gifted to understand and teach.

There is clearly a level of discernment that we have because we are expected to see and reject false teachers. But maybe it is that "we" collectively are that discerning, but individually not so much. Except for the few places where Paul wrote to an individual leader, the letters are to groups of Christians. Not really for individual consumption and interpretation.

I honestly am beginning to think that the idea that much of this chapter, like the one following, is talking about the average Corinthian, and therefore the average Christian, is a lens we have learned from bad sources. My readings through this in recent years has suggested that while I might think I have enough discernment to recognize the meaning of the words enough to see an error in my previous assumption about what this passage means, I am not necessarily of sufficient discernment to claim to be among those that Paul is referring to here as having the mind of Christ.

I am not saying that we do not have the mind of Christ. But I think Paul is talking about a different level here. And the "we" he is talking about is not the Corinthians, but the teachers. He is just a few sentences from two new metaphors for this overall discussion in which "we" will be farmers, then builders, and "you" will be the farm and the building. "We" is Paul, Apollos, and Cephas. "You" is the Corinthians. (I have struggled with the use of "is" in that last sentence, but I think it is actually right. "Is" is shortened from "is referring to" since "we" is not "me and some others," but a word that is being discussed. Same for "you.")

Someone will suggest that I must think rather highly of myself to have stratified Christians in such a manner. But instead I find that I have put myself somewhere down in that stratification. Not so low that I have to just take whatever any one saying they are a teacher shovels at me. And I don't think there is such a low place.

[OBW]

I'm going to pull an "aron" here and quote myself.

Originally Posted by OBW

The "truth" that I see emerging from much of the NT is that there really are teachers that have more insight than the rest of us do. That have been gifted to understand and teach.

When I said this, I was not implying that we are at the mercy of teachers that come and say just anything they want. The wisdom and insight still needs to be consistent with the underlying message. And consistent with what we are able to clearly read. So some novel new idea may simply be a different way of applying what is there to read. And we can see that it is at least not inconsistent.

Then there are other things that just do not fit. They mess with the meaning of the available words. And we are all smart enough to discern that.

And then there are things that are somewhere in between. Such as taking a specific promise or warning and declaring that it is universal in time and meaning.

The thing about those kinds of teachings is what it does tot he listener. When it turns the listener into the religious equivalent of some right-wing militia group as found mostly in the western half of the country, then there is a problem with the message. And I do not see our sisters going to that place. But that is where so many who take those words end out.

They end out voting based on one or two issues that are far from the important things that the government is actually engaged in and in the process we get legislators and government executives that are extreme ideologues and cannot actually govern, but instead strangle the process with deadlock. Idealists too often refuse to accept anything but victory. And they will accept that stopping everything other than what they want is victory and demand nothing less. "My way or nothing."

How else does "America" return to God? By seeing to it that sinners cease to be observable in public. As long as public displays of affection between gays is refused, they will have won something. (I don't like seeing it either, but have a hard time finding the love of God or the love for others as for myself in that position.) As long as you cannot find an abortion clinic listed in the phone book or get a hit on Google or Yahoo. Make the sinner behave as if Christian.

Sinners are sinners. And we are all sinners.

And with that statement, I have discovered our link to the rest of the world. This is a nation of sinners. Just like every other nation.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

It has been a while now, but I read through this general portion of 1 Corinthians a few times a while back and began to question some of the assumptions concerning what Paul is talking about here. For starters, who is the "we" that he is mostly referring to?

Thanks Mike. I was thinking of posting something similar but you said it better than I ever could.

Did the man in Corinth who was taking his fathers wife have the mind of Christ?

Did Witness Lee have the mind of Christ? If so what are we doing here? Why does UntoHim have this forum?

And more on topic, should we just blindly accept that Jonathan Cahn has the mind of Christ?

Someone, preferably UntoHim, please provide an answer. Given the Shemitah, and coming judgement, claimed by Cahn, this is of vital importance. We really need to know if Cahn has the mind of Christ.

[OBW]

And tacking-on to my last post:

The message that I get from Cahn is not consistent with the teachings of Christ. Paul's are. Peter's are. John's are. James' are. Jude's are. Same for whoever wrote Hebrews.

But if we latch onto a phrase in isolation. Or put on blinders to the focus of the NT teaching, we can take a little bit here and a little bit there and create something that would scream for rejection if viewed back in the context of Christ. The premise of trying to make a secular nation into an "Israel-like covenant" nation seems to be in opposition to the idea that we are in the world but not of it. It makes us not only of the world, but it identifies us as the ones who are the world.

Some will declare "but it will be a Christian world." I seriously doubt that. Every other time someone tried to make Christianity into what governed the world, the results have been disastrous. Almost no acts of aggression in the western world have been without claims of God's providence or direction.

Look at the evidence that is provided to suggest that the "nation" has turned from God. Who is responsible for the things? The population of a secular nation. Not the people of God.

God's nation is only God's kingdom. From the time of Christ going forward, the church is not under the old covenant. A new covenant was declared. It is not bound to nations. It is bound to Christ and is an invisible nation that spans the whole globe, yet is not linked to any of it. It is linked to the people of God. And America has never been "the people of God."

In the mean time, there is a groundswell of Christians who have been blinded to think that they can "take back America." As if they ever had it.

Pray. Yes, pray. But what are you praying for? The kingdom of God, or the receiving of blessing? A variant on the prosperity gospel? If we can get open prayer that everyone has to listen to back in the schools. If we can get the government to reestablish religious shrines and markers that are exclusively Christian. If we can push the homosexuals back into the closet. If we can close the abortion clinics and jail anyone who performs an abortion. Then the blessings will return.

The ultimate cargo cult.

And a shame to the teachings of Christ. Who said we would be reviled and persecuted. Who blessed the meek. And the poor in spirit. Who are to be a doves in the world.

If this is wrong, and we are talking strictly about the Christians, then do you think that the Christians have abandoned God? That they need to return to God? Where is the shortage of prayer and righteousness among the Christians (other than to the extent that we will never be all that we think is the goal)?

And if that is the case, then how does our alleged return (under the assumption we have abandoned God) cause prayer to return to the schools? That will not change legislation. It will not melt the hearts of the secular supreme court. "Oh, those Christians have been returning to God, so let's allow their symbols back into the government square."

Yes. We used to be able to pray to our God openly in schools. The country was culturally Christian. But our borders have been opened to those of other religions. And not all of our historical population were truly Christian. And there is now less pressure to act as if they were.

It was an act. And there is no more act. We are now in the cherished place of true Christians throughout the world, and that is as a minority. Trying to get the nation back is like trying to get Constantine to return and make Christianity the favored religion again so that we can punish those who do not see things our way.

That may not be your goal. But it is for those who are leading the way.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

And more on topic, should we just blindly accept that Jonathan Cahn has the mind of Christ?

Who is asking that we blindly accept that Jonathan Cahn has the mind of Christ? Certainly not Nell. She has plainly stated that she is just interested in his prophecies, and maybe to see a general turn towards God in our country.(gasp) I don't see where she is proposing that American become some Christian theocracy. Now maybe some of you out there feel like Cahn would put us on the slippery slope towards that end, but if any of you really think that one prayer breakfast speech from some obscure Messianic Jewish rabbi is going move the dial more than one micron, you are absolutely mistaken.

Someone, preferably UntoHim, please provide an answer. Given the Shemitah, and coming judgement, claimed by Cahn, this is of vital importance. We really need to know if Cahn has the mind of Christ.

No, you are the one saying this is of vital importance, not Nell, and not me. I brought up "the mind of Christ" as a reaction to your post:

Originally Posted by awareness

We don't know the mind of God so we can't know who or what God is judging, if anything, or why.

Then I posted:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Actually, according to the apostle Paul, "we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:15), and this is not something in the abstract, but is absolutely related to the knowledge of God's Word. And guess what?...This having "the mind of Christ" is also related to judgment - check out the word immediately preceding: "The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?".

I believe those who "have the mind of Christ" in verse 16 are "the mature" in verse 6 and "the spiritual" in verse 15. Read the entire chapter, it's only 16 verses. As Mike points out, there is an argument to be made that the wider context of the surrounding chapters may indicate that Paul was speaking of himself, or maybe teachers in general. I think I'm going to stick with the immediate context of chapter 16 itself.

[zeek]

In my opinion, we've been on this thread for a while. The "mind of Christ" is a welcome digression from the OP thesis. Paul claimed to have it. Do any of the 40,000 Christian denominations including Witness Lee's Local Churches have it today? Hard to say. Probably not. Reading I Corinthians 2 it seems that Paul is identifying his consciousness with the transcendent consciousness of God: the Divine Spirit syncretized [a transliteration of the Greek word Paul uses] with the spirit of anthropos. It's a claim that is perennially being made by some, believed by some and never been conclusively proved by any. Therefore, I see it as a claim that requires faith. In any case, I seek the Mind of Christ, but, I do not claim to possess it and I am agnostic and skeptical about Paul and anyone who claims it today.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

In my opinion, we've been on this thread for a while. The "mind of Christ" is a welcome digression from the OP thesis. Paul claimed to have it. Do any of the 40,000 Christian denominations including Witness Lee's Local Churches have it today? Hard to say. Probably not. Reading I Corinthians 2 it seems that Paul is identifying his consciousness with the transcendent consciousness of God: the Divine Spirit syncretized [a transliteration of the Greek word Paul uses] with the spirit of anthropos. It's a claim that is perennially being made by some, believed by some and never been conclusively proved by any. Therefore, I see it as a claim that requires faith. In any case, I seek the Mind of Christ, but, I do not claim to possess it and I am agnostic and skeptical about Paul and anyone who claims it today.

zeek, as you recall, I first introduced you to the LC on campus and what I remember from those days was that you loved to play the guitar. But you were also seeking Christ and it was the LC's openness and oneness to all Christians was something both you and I desired. That never happened in the way we had hoped. The LC became like other denominations and we eventually left.

I have gone through my own transitions since leaving the LC in 1978 as I have repeatedly stated I am a Unitarian Christian on this forum and fall along the lines of James Luther Adams, the foremost Unitarian Theologian of the 21st Century. Yes, he was born again in his early life as was I. He has a remarkable story.

I wish there was a thread where those who wish to just talk about how the LC helped them at some point in their life but they have moved on. BTW--I purchased and read Jane's book a couple years ago and communicated with her because of my curiosity. I have checked out various LC internet info over the years because I was curious as to what had gone on. I still have the Mindbenders book and others I was able to find. I have communicated with friends who left the LC but either started home churches or attended conservative churches. I did the same when I left the LC. Most of us are curious about the history of the LC and probably wish to pipe in now and then regarding those thoughts but we have our own stories as to how the LC affected our lives and how we moved on.

I understand UntoHim's concepts of this forum where it is a haven of sorts for those who were or are in the LC to have an opportunity to discuss their involvement but maintain the rudimentary ideas of the Bible's inerrancy, Christ, Trinity etc. but maybe it could be a larger focus.

[awareness]

Thanks for the response UntoHim.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Who is asking that we blindly accept that Jonathan Cahn has the mind of Christ?

I'm asking. You brought up "We have the mind of Christ." OBW had a pretty good explanation as to who the "we" were. At minimum Paul meant "somebody" by "we." Somebody had the mind of Christ. So the mind of Christ can be had.

We're discussing Cahn, his prayer breakfast sermon, Harbinger, and Shemitah. He makes some pretty audacious claims about what God is doing here in America.

Now if Cahn has the mind of Christ that gives all authority to his claims. And we should heed them. But if not, and Cahn is just cooking up Bible patterns from his natural man, then, Cahn is offering nothing but a mental playground, or sandbox, where Christians can imagine and pretend, for the fun of it, like kids ... milk drinkers.

That's why I'm asking. I once was convinced Lee had the mind of Christ, but was wrong. I'm thinking it's likely the same for Cahn. Maybe not.
------------------------
And note bro UntoHim, I'm being good, didn't argue back with you, or point out the Gnostic Paul. I'm trying bro. I'm trying.

[Nell]

Of this we can be certain: one day, on this earth, there WILL be a theocracy.

Revelation 11:15 ...The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!

Nell

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

Revelation 11:15 ...The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!

And that one is the one that God initiates. We all wait for it along with the whole earth, groaning as if in labor.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

I once was convinced Lee had the mind of Christ, but was wrong. I'm thinking it's likely the same for Cahn.

We were all mesmerized by WL and the writings of WN. I know that for a number of years I met almost every morning and evening pray reading, calling "Oh Lord Jesus", studying the Life Studies of WL of various books of the Bible, listening to audio tapes of WL etc. I also marched in the streets of different cities wearing shirts with "Jesus Is Lord" etc. printed on them. I attended several conferences on books of the Bible in Anaheim with WL. I met with WL, had dinner with him etc. One time I stood on the table in a cafeteria of a University I was attending and preached the gospel to other students during lunch hour. I was a true believer and I was doing everything I could to further the "kingdom" of God with WL at the helm leading us forth, unfortunately, as we discovered too late, into the wilderness. Prior to WL I was studying for the Ministry. During this entire time, like many of you, I sought the riches of Christ so it is not like I gave up my faith while I was listening to WL but it is just that leaders can take us astray such as those Paul wrote about in various epistles e.g. 1 Corinthians... even though at the same time I was doing everything a Christian should do--praying, reading my Bible, meeting with other believers, preaching the gospel etc.

The question is for those who believe in what Cahn is saying---how real is to you? Is it just an argument/discussion or is it something you are going to live your life for? On the streets, at the universities, meetings with others etc. Are you a "true" believer? It seems like you might want to get out into the streets and start shouting "Repent America!"...what is the outcome of your agreement with Cahn?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Of this we can be certain: one day, on this earth, there WILL be a theocracy.

Revelation 11:15 ...The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!

Nell

There's nothing certain about the book of Revelation. Since its inception it was debated as to whether or not it should be in the canon because it was thought that it would cause nothing but havoc and confusion ... and it has. Plus, all attempts to decode it have failed.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Dave

The question is for those who believe in what Cahn is saying---how real is to you? Is it just an argument/discussion or is it something you are going to live your life for? On the streets, at the universities, meetings with others etc. Are you a "true" believer? It seems like you might want to get out into the streets and start shouting "Repent America!"...what is the outcome of your agreement with Cahn?

Very fair and reasonable question, Dave. Personally, I am somewhat ambivalent toward's Cahn and much of what he spoke at that inauguration breakfast. The only reason I'm participating in this thread is my obligation to moderate. For the most part, I think much of the push back against Nell has been against things she has never even faintly purposed. Nevertheless, I think Dave's inquiry here is reasonable, and maybe Nell could clarify her stance if she feels it necessary.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

There's nothing certain about the book of Revelation. Since its inception it was debated as to whether or not it should be in the canon because it was thought that it would cause nothing but havoc and confusion ... and it has. Plus, all attempts to decode it have failed.

Mr Awareness.
Please note that the WORD of GOD is True and Faithful and He reveals all things through His Spirit and in due time.

In Daniel 12:9 the LORD said this to him: “Go now, Daniel, for what I have said is kept secret and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, cleansed, and refined by these trials. But the wicked will continue in their wickedness, and none of them will understand. Only those who are wise will know what it means.

The KEY PHRASE IS: for what I have said is kept secret and sealed until the time of the end. Now that we have arrived the HOLY SPIRIT IS OPENING THE EYES OF OUR UNDERSTANDING TO THE BOOK OF DANIEL, REVELATION, EZEKIEL, GENESIS, EXODUS in ways He has not done in the past. There really, really IS a lot of Revelation and prophesy coming to pass NOW.

For many years man did not understand what God was saying in much of the Bible...especially the book of Revelation. But the time of the end IS UPON US now. You might not think so but it does not matter if you or anyone else does or does not. People in Noah's day did not believe the Judgment of God was upon them. But it was.

I love you sir knucklehead and may the HOLY SPIRIT OF EL SHADDAI BLESS YOU AND KEEP YOU CLOSE TO HIS HEART. MAY HE GRANT YOU SUPERNATURAL FAVOR AND PEACE, UNDERSTANDING AND JOY. MAY HE ANOINT AND OPEN THE EYES OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING BY THE POWER AND LOVE OF THE FATHER, THE WORD/SON, JESUS AND HIS BELOVED AND HOLY SPIRIT.

Carol

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Dave

We were all mesmerized by WL and the writings of WN. I know that for a number of years I met almost every morning and evening pray reading, calling "Oh Lord Jesus", studying the Life Studies of WL of various books of the Bible, listening to audio tapes of WL etc. I also marched in the streets of different cities wearing shirts with "Jesus Is Lord" etc. printed on them. I attended several conferences on books of the Bible in Anaheim with WL. I met with WL, had dinner with him etc. One time I stood on the table in a cafeteria of a University I was attending and preached the gospel to other students during lunch hour. I was a true believer and I was doing everything I could to further the "kingdom" of God with WL at the helm leading us forth, unfortunately, as we discovered too late, into the wilderness. Prior to WL I was studying for the Ministry. During this entire time, like many of you, I sought the riches of Christ so it is not like I gave up my faith while I was listening to WL but it is just that leaders can take us astray such as those Paul wrote about in various epistles e.g. 1 Corinthians... even though at the same time I was doing everything a Christian should do--praying, reading my Bible, meeting with other believers, preaching the gospel etc.

Dave,

I did all that too. I was just as deceived as you were, maybe more. Lee said "follow ME" and like a dope, I did it.

Here's your key phrase "I was doing everything I could to further the "kingdom" of God with WL at the helm...". We were following the wrong person. We shouldn't have followed Lee and we shouldn't "follow Cahn". Is anyone suggesting that we follow Cahn? No. Is CAHN suggesting this? No.

Who should we follow? Jesus. Period. In fact, that's Cahn's message. Get right with Jesus. So, if even if you wanted to follow Cahn you'd have to follow God.

Originally Posted by Dave

The question is for those who believe in what Cahn is saying---how real is to you? Is it just an argument/discussion or is it something you are going to live your life for? On the streets, at the universities, meetings with others etc. Are you a "true" believer? It seems like you might want to get out into the streets and start shouting "Repent America!"...what is the outcome of your agreement with Cahn?

I'm a true believer in Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. Cahn is not real to me. God is real to me. I sure hope He doesn't want me to go out and start shouting "repent America". I really hope He doesn't

What do you know of "my agreement with Cahn?" I keep saying it: forget Cahn. Is Cahn's message consistent with the Bible? If so, believe the Bible. Was Lee consistent with the Bible? Sometimes. Men are not "right" or "wrong" of themselves. Lee was ONLY "right" when he lined up with the Bible. Did that make Lee "right"? No. It was the Bible that was right. Lee just agreed with the Bible, or he didn't.

Lee is not authoritative. Cahn is not authoritative. You are not authoritative. I am not authoritative. OBW is not authoritative. The Bible is authoritative. Period. All of it. (...awareness...even the Revelation).

Here's a question for you, Dave. If God wanted to warn you about something, anything, how would He do it?

Nell

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

Dave,

I did all that too. I was just as deceived as you were, maybe more. Lee said "follow ME" and like a dope, I did it.

Here's your key phrase "I was doing everything I could to further the "kingdom" of God with WL at the helm...". We were following the wrong person. We shouldn't have followed Lee and we shouldn't "follow Cahn". Is anyone suggesting that we follow Cahn? No. Is CAHN suggesting this? No.

Who should we follow? Jesus. Period. In fact, that's Cahn's message. Get right with Jesus. So, if even if you wanted to follow Cahn you'd have to follow God.

I'm a true believer in Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. Cahn is not real to me. God is real to me. I sure hope He doesn't want me to go out and start shouting "repent America". I really hope He doesn't

What do you know of "my agreement with Cahn?" I keep saying it: forget Cahn. Is Cahn's message consistent with the Bible? If so, believe the Bible. Was Lee consistent with the Bible? Sometimes. Men are not "right" or "wrong" of themselves. Lee was ONLY "right" when he lined up with the Bible. Did that make Lee "right"? No. It was the Bible that was right. Lee just agreed with the Bible, or he didn't.

Lee is not authoritative. Cahn is not authoritative. You are not authoritative. I am not authoritative. OBW is not authoritative. The Bible is authoritative. Period. All of it. (...awareness...even the Revelation).

Here's a question for you, Dave. If God wanted to warn you about something, anything, how would He do it?

Nell

Nell
Thanks for responding in a good way. I realize we keep saying if what he/she says is consistent with the Bible but everyone quotes scriptures and there is a lot more to it than just being "consistent with the Bible" although that is a beginning. Calvin, Darby, Nee, Lee, Cahn...all consistent with the scriptures but disagree on several issues and we all say that what we are doing/saying is consistent with the scriptures but there may be more to it than that concept. We can kick back into Brother Lawrence mode and go that route as well. There are many avenues to living the Christian life.

When I said, “WL at the helm” it was a reflective statement. At the time I thought WL was guiding me towards Christ. It wasn’t until years later I could look back and say, “WL at the helm”. We were young and really uninformed and I probably put less responsibility on WL then I do on people who were much more involved, with considerable Bible backgrounds and had been trained by WL. John Ingalls, for example, bless his soul, was well versed in the Plymouth Brethren. Thus, while some of them were kicked out of the LC by WL they had much more in-depth backgrounds and didn’t see it coming. They are the ones who gave us confidence that what we were hearing was from the oracle of God. We should have known better but it was an exciting time and I had been reading and talking about WN for several years and here was his coworker from China…wow…it doesn’t get any better than that. It was like a dream come true.

Your question, how would I expect a warning from God? That is a great question! A huge comet detected coming straight at the earth to hit us in 40 days. Numerous significant earthquakes shaking the foundation of the earth creating unparalleled tsunamis. Thousands of sightings of Jesus throughout the world warning us of impending disaster (of course, in this day and age one interview with Jesus descending down from the heavens might do it since the entire world would see it). I don’t think God does things in a small way. He didn’t in the OT and He was dealing with a very small population in the days of Noah compared to what we have today. Thousands of people compared to billions today and look at the billions in China and India who are all unbelievers. Despite significant efforts by Christians in South America etc Christians are not making a lot of progress. The longer He waits the more non-Christians there will be in the world. I know there are verses that essentially say, "Surprise, Surprise it is the end of the world and I am setting up a new kingdom" and "you didn't make it" but there are also verses that indicate otherwise...that there will be calamity prior to setting up the new kingdom.

I have to agree with awareness on this issue, Cahn is in it for the money. You don’t see a significant market in China or India for a book declaring that God is going to punish China/India for their unbelief and their persecution of Christians (China). How do you think a book declaring that God is going to pour out his wrath on the Palestinians for their constant attacks on Israel would sell in Palestine, Gaza strip, Syria and other Arab countries. Why pick on the US? Because we are gullible Christians and love this sort of thing. I would imagine that any Chinese or Indians who read it would be dumbfounded as to why God is picking on the US. BTW---this is just my opinion!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

There's nothing certain about the book of Revelation. Since its inception it was debated as to whether or not it should be in the canon because it was thought that it would cause nothing but havoc and confusion ... and it has. Plus, all attempts to decode it have failed.

Awareness, please tell me you're not serious.

To say "There's nothing certain about the book of Revelation..." is not true. One thing is certain: Revelation IS in the Bible. It doesn't matter that there were debates as to it's canonization. That debate is over. Havoc? Confusion? This is not unique to many of the books. Failure to "decode"? Carol is right.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

I realize we keep saying if what he/she says is consistent with the Bible but everyone quotes scriptures and there is a lot more to it than just being "consistent with the Bible" although that is a beginning.

Just quoting the Bible doesn't mean that's what God is doing. Lee cooked up God's Economy from the Bible but does that mean that's what God is doing?

Now Cahn has cooked something up from the Bible. But again, is that what God is actually doing?

Some say they see a pattern of God's activity with the blood moons. Does God hold to patterns? Does God say, I must do things according to the blood moons?

It's all kind of funny. And like OBW pointed out, very Cargo Cultish. Even as literate and educated as we are today, compared to the primitives of the cargo cults on New Guinea, we're still operating from our primitive reptilian brain, when it comes to God.

We really are funny little critters, with our extreme desperate efforts to weave God into OUR lives. When God is already involved in everything that is going on, and we don't see it.

Here's verses from a non-canonical book:

113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."
- Gospel of Thomas

And even tho it's non-canonical doesn't mean it's not what God is doing.

God is doing everything. It is we that don't see it. So in our ABSENCE of seeing God, we end up looking for little scraps of what we think we see of what God is doing ... when all we need to do is open our eyes to the world and universe. Methinks we are looking way to narrow by looking only in the Bible. The Bible was written by the hands of men (and only men) when God wrote the whole universe, with His OWN hands.

That's the real WAKE UP CALL.

Talk about putting God into a box! The Bible is that box.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness, please tell me you're not serious.

To say "There's nothing certain about the book of Revelation..." is not true. One thing is certain: Revelation IS in the Bible.

I am serious. Before the invention of the printing press the book of Revelation was in and out of the canon like a yo-yo. It was the printing press, not God, that fixed it into today's Bible.

But then again maybe God was behind it, by being behind man's evolution into the technological age ... and Revelation being fixed in the canon was a by-product ... an after thought.

Still, the book of Revelation has vexed Christians ever since the 2nd century, when it was introduced along with many other apocalyptic literature.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just quoting the Bible doesn't mean that's what God is doing. Lee cooked up God's Economy from the Bible but does that mean that's what God is doing?

Now Cahn has cooked something up from the Bible. But again, is that what God is actually doing?

Some say they see a pattern of God's activity with the blood moons. Does God hold to patterns? Does God say, I must do things according to the blood moons?

It's all kind of funny. And like OBW pointed out, very Cargo Cultish. Even as literate and educated as we are today, compared to the primitives of the cargo cults on New Guinea, we're still operating from our primitive reptilian brain, when it comes to God.

We really are funny little critters, with our extreme desperate efforts to weave God into OUR lives. When God is already involved in everything that is going on.....

And even tho it's non-canonical doesn't mean it's not what God is doing.

God is doing everything. It is we that don't see it. So in our ABSENCE of seeing God, we end up looking for little scraps of what we think we see of what God is doing ... when all we need to do is open our eyes to the world and universe.

Me thinks we are looking way to narrow by looking only in the Bible. The Bible was written by the hands of men (and only men) when God wrote the whole universe, with His OWN hands.

That's the real WAKE UP CALL.

Talk about putting God into a box! The Bible is that box.

ok... I give you this: I do believe God works outside the bible because He is SPIRIT and there IS a lot more that goes on in the Spirit realm than meets the carnal eye.

That said.... based on what you are expressing here Mr A, you think we should embrace Shamanism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, paganism? After all they ALL are spiritual paths that they believe get to GOD...and they all think outside the bible.

(And btw, I TOTALLY GET, that 'Christianity' be it Lee's version, or mainstream 'Christianity' in it's various forms have done a number on people.... confusing them, dividing them, and even deceiving them.)

And if that is the case..........then are you embracing the one world religion? The one world religion is head by the false prophet (the beast of the earth Revelation 13:11....which I believe is the pope whether this one, the next one or the superior general of the Jesuits. The false prophet brings ALL THE RELIGIONS AND IDEALOGIES TOGETHER TO BRING 'PEACE' in the world. His goal from there is to point to the political AC as the MESSIAH of the world, the beast of the sea of Rev 13:1

Yeah... let's throw out the FACT...JUST THE FACT...that Jesus is the ONLY WAY to Abba Father. And while there, let's throw away the FACT that the Shed Blood of Jesus and the Power of His Holy Spirit changes our stinking thinking...

Imagine there's no heaven... no hell below us.... uh-huh...
Kumbaya my friend... kumbaya....

Love ya still!
Carol

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

I am serious. Before the invention of the printing press the book of Revelation was in and out of the canon like a yo-yo. It was the printing press, not God, that fixed it into today's Bible.

But then again maybe God was behind it, by being behind man's evolution into the technological age ... and Revelation being fixed in the canon was a by-product ... an after thought.

Still, the book of Revelation has vexed Christians ever since the 2nd century, when it was introduced along with many other apocalyptic literature.

God foresaw it would be a controversial book. There are verses in the Revelation which foresee this and warn the reader not to ignore or change the book:

In Chapter 1 verse 3, it mentions that those who read Revelation will be blessed:

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it.."

And Chapter 22 verse 9 warns against changing the words of Revelation:

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Sorry for my brief hiatus as I've been busy working on the launch of a verse memorization game and website

[Nell]

Originally Posted by bearbear

God foresaw it would be a controversial book. There are verses in the Revelation which foresee this and warn the reader not to ignore or change the book:

In Chapter 1 verse 3, it mentions that those who read Revelation will be blessed:

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it.."

And Chapter 22 verse 9 warns against changing the words of Revelation:

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Sorry for my brief hiatus as I've been busy working on the launch of a verse memorization game and website

Excellent.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

ok... I give you this: I do believe God works outside the bible because He is SPIRIT and there IS a lot more that goes on in the Spirit realm than meets the carnal eye.

That said.... based on what you are expressing here Mr A, you think we should embrace Shamanism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, paganism? After all they ALL are spiritual paths that they believe get to GOD...and they all think outside the bible.

(And btw, I TOTALLY GET, that 'Christianity' be it Lee's version, or mainstream 'Christianity' in it's various forms have done a number on people.... confusing them, dividing them, and even deceiving them.)

And if that is the case..........then are you embracing the one world religion? The one world religion is head by the false prophet (the beast of the earth Revelation 13:11....which I believe is the pope whether this one, the next one or the superior general of the Jesuits. The false prophet brings ALL THE RELIGIONS AND IDEALOGIES TOGETHER TO BRING 'PEACE' in the world. His goal from there is to point to the political AC as the MESSIAH of the world, the beast of the sea of Rev 13:1

Yeah... let's throw out the FACT...JUST THE FACT...that Jesus is the ONLY WAY to Abba Father. And while there, let's throw away the FACT that the Shed Blood of Jesus and the Power of His Holy Spirit changes our stinking thinking...

Imagine there's no heaven... no hell below us.... uh-huh...
Kumbaya my friend... kumbaya....

Love ya still!
Carol

Good post and response sis. Yes, kumbaya.

One more thing about the book of Rev.

Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. . ."

Soon has taken place ... the book was fulfilled by the time it was published. And likely the visions were from eating bad bread and ergotoxicosis, or Saint Anthony's Fire ... a problem that was common backed then. Remember, this John (there's no evidence it was John the apostle) was stranded on an island, and so ate bad bread. John was on an LSD trip.

I've been there. And had visions like that. In fact, it was LSD, and God during a tremendous trip, that led me to the local church. So my take away is, don't do things according to wild visions. They will lead you astray.

Be careful. And ... Kumbaya.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good post and response sis. Yes, kumbaya.

One more thing about the book of Rev.

Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. . ."

Soon has taken place ...

....

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

[OBW]

I'm with awareness on this, at least somewhat.

We really don't know what Revelation means. It does indicate a coming judgment. And a restoration of the earth, complete with the open coming of the kingdom of God to it.

But what does almost any of the rest of it mean? Full of imagery. Little of which is "clearly" anything specific.

Of course, we love to declare that certain parts are not imagery, but are literal. Yet what is the evidence that it is so literal? That the imagery wasn't so "out there?" That it must therefore be real?

And if a thousand years is as a day, and a day as a thousand years, then the 7 weeks might really be 49,000 years. Besides, other than the common reference to weeks, what makes these 7 weeks precisely equal to the final 7 weeks in Daniel. Or even if so, what makes the extended timeframe of the weeks entirely identical as they seem to have been in the first parts of the prophecy. Seems to make the whole thing into a formula that has been laid out for us, therefore causes a question on the claim that the day is not known. If we can get it really close, then why would there be two in the field and one taken? Seems that it would be so obvious that no one who would actually be among the taken would be out in the field. They would be on the mountain top, just like in the days of the great disappointment, and more recently for the followers of that crackpot in California.

God made man to bear his image on the earth. And it was very good. Seems a little odd to then be in such a hurry to have nothing to bear that image to other than the trees and cows that are just along for the ride.

And therefore asks every one of us whether we really know what Revelation is about. I see warning of judgment. Its time is uncertain. That should make me more aware of my present condition. And, despite the evidence that anyone can die any day, and then after that, the judgment, we often live as if there is a lifetime to worry about it.

And since the warning is to the church, not to the heathen, then what does it mean? Does it mean that the salvation that gets you through this, or around it, or whatever, is not so simple? That there is more to be concerned with than your eternal security?

Most of the answers, and most of the things that are spoken of out of Revelation are, unfortunately, rather trite. Oh, the "Left Behind" kind of discussion is serous. But is it as much on the mark as we think?

And all of this to create a place where we get to walk on golden streets and live in really big houses (for one kind of thinking), or spend our eternity falling prostate in worship to God (and it seems that he created man for a purpose different than that). Maybe we are focused on the wrong parts of the imagery. Looking too much at the details and not enough at the picture it paints. But I am not the one to see it. That is for sure.

[Nell]

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, ...

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: ... 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead;...
...

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of ...
....

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

[OBW]

Hebrews 11. A good passage.

Is it just an interlude? That is fine. And we need those at times.

But if not . . .

If it is supplied in response to a particular post or comment, it helps to have the portion supplied (quoted — at least the relevant part(s)) so that it has a context and can be understood as a response.

Now if the intent was to follow immediately after my post (and respond to it in some way), then you might not need to quote much, if anything. Unless the reason that it is in response to that post is not evident. And since I do not understand faith as being directly relevant to answering or responding to the things I said, I would need more help.

And if it responds to a more remote post, then help us out. Sometimes the ability to find the relevant post to provide the context is not as simple when the time frame is either long or interrupted by multiple posts.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Hebrews 11. A good passage.

Is it just an interlude? That is fine. And we need those at times.

But if not . . .

If it is supplied in response to a particular post or comment, it helps to have the portion supplied (quoted — at least the relevant part(s)) so that it has a context and can be understood as a response.

Now if the intent was to follow immediately after my post (and respond to it in some way), then you might not need to quote much, if anything. Unless the reason that it is in response to that post is not evident. And since I do not understand faith as being directly relevant to answering or responding to the things I said, I would need more help.

And if it responds to a more remote post, then help us out. Sometimes the ability to find the relevant post to provide the context is not as simple when the time frame is either long or interrupted by multiple posts.

I could be wrong, of course. But I thought I got it. That, without faith we can't get or even see Cahn's Bible conflations. Am I wrong .. or lying?

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

I could be wrong, of course. But I thought I got it. That, without faith we can't get or even see Cahn's Bible conflations. Am I wrong .. or lying?

Well it was from context of receiving, or believing in, the book of Revelation: is it God's speaking? Is it the Word of God (as used in Heb 11:3)?

Nell uses Hebrews 11 to say through faith we receive the Word of God, including I assume the contents of the book of Revelation, whether we get all the symbolism or not. But when Hebrews was written the "Word of God" wasn't the book of Revelation, or even Hebrews, but the OT. Hebrews 11 was speaking of "the elders" (see verse 2) who long preceded Paul and John and Peter. Later on, (centuries later, in the case of both Hebrews and Revelations) they included the epistle to the Hebrews and the Apocalypse of John in the "God's Holy Word" column, i.e. the canon of scripture. How? By faith. They believed.

Now, on to Cahn. The title of this thread is "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us". God is speaking to us in Jonathan Cahn. Just like in Hebrews and Revelations as canonical, we just need faith that Cahn's book is God's current word to us. Well, when I saw Cahn on YouTube, plugging his book on the Jerry Springer show, um sorry, the Jim Bakker show, I said to myself, Nah. Sorry, I don't have enough "faith". Hebrews I will consider; Revelations even, whether or not I get all the fantastic symbolism. But Jim Bakker and friends are not "God's current speaking to us".

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

The title of this thread is "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us". God is speaking to us in Jonathan Cahn... when I saw Cahn on YouTube, plugging his book on the Jerry Springer show, um sorry, the Jim Bakker show, I said to myself, Nah. Sorry, I don't have enough "faith"... Jim Bakker and friends are not "God's current speaking to us".

If you give Bakker a $100 "love gift" donation you can get a couple of DVDs of him with Jonathan Cahn.

http://jimbakkershow.com/lovegifts/

Somehow these guys belong on a discussion forum with Witness Lee. It was destiny.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

If you give Bakker a $100 "love gift" donation you can get a couple of DVDs of him with Jonathan Cahn.

http://jimbakkershow.com/lovegifts/

Somehow these guys belong on a discussion forum with Witness Lee. It was destiny.

Jim Bakker is not exactly a ringing endorsement but whatever. I think people should just line up and buy these DVDs. You end up supporting an old time Christian Evangelical favorite and a new Christian Evangelical Messianic favorite. A two for one deal. Maybe these DVDs will provide more insight regarding the Inaugural Breakfast. Or maybe what happened over the last 20 years with Jim Bakker for those who want to know. Who knows what they will provide? I know we have beat this to death but maybe that is the intent of Cahn’s supporters in getting the message out… How about shooting for 600+ posts? That should do it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Well it was from context of receiving, or believing in, the book of Revelation

You could be right about that. In which case Nell's quoting of Hebrews was intended for prolly both OBW and myself.

If so, she, and looks like you too, believe that accepting the Bible as we have it today, dismissing the various different canons that exist even today, is a matter of faith. I agree. There's no other way. Revelation is a book of visions and nightmares, with a Jesus that does not turn the other check, love neighbors, or enemies. Reason may not apply. Faith is necessary ... to accept a Jesus antithetical to Jesus in the gospels.

And Cahn? I think everything that can be said has been stated, every angle presented, many ad nauseam (I'm the worse). In less than a year we'll know; right after the last blood moon, on Sept 28th 2015. It will be interesting, and prolly hilarious as well, to see them spin it, when nothing happens. Or see what events are brought in that they/he can claim to be connected ; events, by the way, that will likely happen even if God ain't paying attention. But Cahn did say nothing might happen. Ya gotta give it to him, even if it's completely crazy (not saying, this time, that it is), Cahn is certainly a very gifted marketeer.

Like Zeek pointed out: Cahn's a rock star in some Christian circles ; which I think are more or less the John Hagee kinda Christians.

But I have no room to speak. I could be right, and I could be wrong. Just like our bro Cahn. See how my judgment came right back at me. Didn't somebody remarkable from the Iron age say something like that ... according records from back then? That still, even 2000 yrs later, out shines Cahn, no, correction, eclipses him.

If I need a savior, or even a hero, I'm going with the man from the Iron age. And then, "let every man be a liar."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

Jim Bakker is not exactly a ringing endorsement but whatever. I think people should just line up and buy these DVDs. You end up supporting an old time Christian Evangelical favorite and a new Christian Evangelical Messianic favorite. A two for one deal. Maybe these DVDs will provide more insight regarding the Inaugural Breakfast. Or maybe what happened over the last 20 years with Jim Bakker for those who want to know. Who knows what they will provide? I know we have beat this to death but maybe that is the intent of Cahn’s supporters in getting the message out… How about shooting for 600+ posts? That should do it.

Well I have largely refrained from this discussion, tho I've read many posts, simply because it, and Cahn, are not very interesting to me. There are dozens of Cahns out there and I don't find any of them very interesting. Perhaps I am another Cahn with my "angels ascending and descending", who knows?

But I'll try to say a couple of things here. First, on the idea of American Exceptionalism, you know, a nation covenanted to God. I think that modeling any country in any age after OT Israel is kind of missing the point. Number one, we are a democracy not a theocracy and number two we separated church and state. Both probably were advances in the scheme of things.(I know- I'm a liberal. Shame on me).

Originally Posted by Luke13:1-5

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Yes, America needs to repent. Both North America and South America, for that matter. As does Switzerland and Zimbabwe. Where is the Exceptionalism here? Jesus said, "Unless you repent, you will all perish." To me that means everybody. Not just America the city on the hill. So if you try to go back to the OT with some kind of group covenant ... sorry I just don't get it.

My second point is this, about Jim Bakker. He was a country preacher from up north somewhere (I am going by memory here) like Minnesota. He got a TV station and a cable TV outlet and suddenly the money started rolling in. His ministry basically ended up with him & Tammy Faye standing in front of the camera and asking viewers for money. They would do a verse, a prayer, a song, a story, and then "We need your money."

He ran into trouble when he got too big for his britches. He started a theme park and solicited "time shares" and basically defrauded his customers. Daystar, anyone? He ended up in jail. He said it was sloppy book-keeping, not theft, but basically he bilked a lot of people out of money.

So what happened when he got out of prison? He stepped right back in front of the TV camera and said, "Folks, Praise the Lord!! Please send me some money for my ministry!" He went right back at it. He was hooked on easy money; he was addicted to it. Then I realized that some spirit(s) was controlling this guy.

So the fact that Cahn and he are in bed in money-making schemes is as much a "sign" to me as Cahn's pine tree in New York, or whatever he's waving. He and Lee and Cahn are representative of money-grubbing, mercantilistic, flag-waving, empire-building, hucksterism, thinly veiled with a few Bible verses.

Anyway this is my opinion. I could be wrong. Cahn could be today's Amos, warning the nation of the doom to come. Who knows? But if he's doing it on Jim Bakker's TV show forgive me if I tune him out. I think if God's wrath is coming then maybe Jim Bakker and Jonathan Cahn and Witness Lee will all be in the same dark room. Really, none of us knows. But please forgive me, and don't take it personal, if I don't feel like following these kinds of people. I spent some time with Witness Lee's crew of True Believers and that was enough for me. I'm allergic now.

[OBW]

Hebrews speaks of those who followed and trusted God. And the "method" and ways of following God have been spelled out fairly consistently in the OT, then enhanced in the New, along with a new and better way.

Following the OT elders in faith would today be following Jesus in faith. But of all the things that Jesus said to follow, trying to figure out the end times and turning our attention to that at the expense of the following in this life is problematic. I am not talking about Nell. I am talking about almost everyone that I have heard get too deep into studying Revelation as a kind of mine to dig in for buried treasure rather than reading it as a significantly metaphorical picture of the coming end of this age.

It does take faith to accept and live with such an obviously catastrophic end to the age, followed by a better age than has yet been. But just putting verses out there about having faith in the God who is bringing us through the present does not really say much about it. If anything, that passage in Hebrews speaks to me of living this life in this age more than looking to the life to come. Yes, they trusted that there was something beyond their life here. But that was the thing that made them trust for today, not just look to the future.

And most of the digging through Revelation seems to send us toward despising today and pining for tomorrow. Looking for the evidence that the end is coming so we can "leave this place." I understand that thought as our natural life nears its end. The real pains of life become unbearable. Then our hope for the future becomes a more significant part of our thinking. Not saying we don't have that hope now, but it is directing us toward the living now that makes that hope solid and real. At that later point in life, we should be confident that our living was what was required and be looking forward with confidence of the hope we have held for the years.

In any case, just putting unrelated verses on the screen without comment creates the kind of questions that have been raised. And it generates differing opinions as to the intent of putting them there. So I think that my request for comment from the one who made the post is reasonable. It is just too postmodern for us to think that our interpretation is simply it because that is how we would think. Seems we don't all think the same way, therefore it is evident that the intent of the writer is needed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Hebrews speaks of those who followed and trusted God. And the "method" and ways of following God have been spelled out fairly consistently in the OT, then enhanced in the New, along with a new and better way..

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Worlds were framed by the word of God. We believe this. You know (a little aside here) that little children's angels can see the face of the Father God. But eventually we learn words, and represent reality, and create clouds of illusion. We frame our own illusory worlds with our words.

But there was one who could speak, and could see the Father at the same time. His name was Jesus. He was the incarnated Word. Hebrews 11:2 is saying that the faithful "word of God" of the elders pointed to the coming incarnated Word. See Hebrews' copious citations of the OT, with "It says somewhere", etc. The scriptural Word pointed to the incarnated Word, who points us back to the Father. Eventually we accepted some of these writings like the epistle to the Hebrews as scriptural (canonized) words equivalent to the OT scriptures.

I am saying that all scriptures point to Jesus, who points us the lost sheep, the prodigal children, back to our Father who art in Heaven, whose name be hallowed and whose kingdom come.

Now, you get wordsmiths like Cahn, and Lee, who should be pointing us to Jesus. But instead they create illusions of clouds of words, and peddle them by the page. They are mercantilists. They use words but they get caught in illusion. They probably believe what they write, which makes them more convincing. But when push comes to shove it's all about the Benjamins.

Me, I am also a wordsmith, dealing with illusion. I am an internet poseur. I really may have no spirituality at all. But at least I am not charging you money. I spin my words for free.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

In any case, just putting unrelated verses on the screen without comment creates the kind of questions that have been raised. And it generates differing opinions as to the intent of putting them there. So I think that my request for comment from the one who made the post is reasonable. It is just too postmodern for us to think that our interpretation is simply it because that is how we would think. Seems we don't all think the same way, therefore it is evident that the intent of the writer is needed.

OBW, I don't like to respond to you. Every reply from me generates a Straw-man from you, or you read something into a message that isn't there.

Here's the message: Christians live by faith, looking to those who have gone before for encouragement for the future. This would seem to be a message that could be taken at face value. I can't even post some verses from the Bible without your questioning my intent.

Further, I don't know how to respond to a group of Christians on a Christian website, who are questioning the inclusion of the book of the Revelation in the Bible, saying John was on an LSD trip when he wrote it. This is beyond the pale. You have to start somewhere, and for Christians, the Bible is pretty near the top. Hebrews 11 is the best I can do.

It should be obvious by now that all people don't think the same way.

Could you not just ask "Nell, what do you mean by this...?"


Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Further, I don't know how to respond to a group of Christians on a Christian website, who are questioning the inclusion of the book of the Revelation in the Bible, saying John was on an LSD trip when he wrote it

Calm down sis. Of course I don't know if this John was on LSD. I just know that in those days when storing food was a problem (they didn't have plastic for example, nor refrigerators) ergot poisoning was common.

I don't think Revelation should be in the canon because there were many more such "apocalyptic" writings in those days, that weren't and aren't included in our canon. And it's unlikely all the writers suffered ergot poisoning. In the history of literature it's was a thing; a period called the age of Apocalyptic Writings - dating from circa 200BCE to 100CE -- Daniel was written around 200BCE and Revelation circa 100CE. Can you imagine what Christianity would be like today if all those apocalyptic writings were included in our canon? Can we say "completely bonkers?"

So thank God they weren't included. Revelation should have been among them ... as maybe something to be read, but not canonical. It's a mistake that Revelation made it into the canon. And that's obvious, when we judge that tree by its fruit, down thru the centuries.

Just stop and think for a moment sis. Down thru the ages every generation has taken the book of Rev. and applied it to their times. What do you think the audience it was written for back then thought of the book? They would have known it applied to Rome and Nero. Which it did. And the Roman Empire has fallen.

America is not Israel, and not the Roman Empire either. All have failed. And so will we. Every Rose blooms, withers, and dies. It's the way of nature, the way of human life, the way of civilizations ... the way of Gods' laws. And prayer doesn't change it. Any more than 30,000 praying in Texas brought the needed rain ; or that prayer causes the blood moons; that also come and go, by laws created by God ... no prayer or repentance required.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Dave

Nell
Thanks for responding in a good way. I realize we keep saying if what he/she says is consistent with the Bible but everyone quotes scriptures and there is a lot more to it than just being "consistent with the Bible" although that is a beginning. ...

Your question, how would I expect a warning from God? That is a great question! A huge comet detected coming straight at the earth to hit us in 40 days. Numerous significant earthquakes shaking the foundation of the earth creating unparalleled tsunamis. Thousands of sightings of Jesus throughout the world warning us of impending disaster (of course, in this day and age one interview with Jesus descending down from the heavens might do it since the entire world would see it). I don’t think God does things in a small way. He didn’t in the OT and He was dealing with a very small population in the days of Noah compared to what we have today. Thousands of people compared to billions today and look at the billions in China and India who are all unbelievers. Despite significant efforts by Christians in South America etc Christians are not making a lot of progress. The longer He waits the more non-Christians there will be in the world. I know there are verses that essentially say, "Surprise, Surprise it is the end of the world and I am setting up a new kingdom" and "you didn't make it" but there are also verses that indicate otherwise...that there will be calamity prior to setting up the new kingdom.

Hi Dave,

Actually, my question was "If God wanted to warn you about something, anything, how would He do it?" I certainly wouldn't rule out comets, earthquakes, etc., (I did say 'anything') but I had something less catastrophic in mind.

For example, years ago one of my good friends talked to me about a problem she was having. She couldn't decide whether or not it was OK to sleep with her boyfriend. I told her "Some questions you don't have to ask. What does the Bible say?" I didn't need to, or have to, tell her what to do. The Bible speaks for itself. So, God's Word delivered a message to my friend. Perhaps a warning.

So, in that context, God speaks to us through His Word with many messages, which include encouragement, comfort, rebuke, and warnings, to name a few.

When I was in the LC had the experience of hearing a message from someone other than WL, et al, and rejecting it out of hand because it wasn't from the "oracle". It was a good message, but I was taught only to listen to the big "O". Like a dope, I did it.

There are unlikely sources that the Lord may send to speak a message of warning to us. One of my all-time favorites is Baalam's ass. Numbers 22:21-39 tells the story. On this thread, JCahn's rep is worse than that of Baalam's ass. However, if God can use BA to send a messenge, He can also use JCahn. Forget JCahn, but pay attention to the message. File it away. Pray for wisdom and guidance. I'm sure you're doing that anyway.

Originally Posted by Dave

I have to agree with awareness on this issue, Cahn is in it for the money. ... BTW---this is just my opinion!

How do you know JCahn is in it for the money? How does Awareness know? (Really. How "aware" is Awareness?) On what do you base your opinion? Have you researched it? I have. I haven't found anything stating what he does with the proceeds of his book sales yet. Before forming an opinion, and before accusing a brother, there are ways to find out the facts of the matter.

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Calm down sis. Of course I don't know if this John was on LSD. I just know that in those days when storing food was a problem (they didn't have plastic for example, nor refrigerators) ergot poisoning was common.

I don't think Revelation should be in the canon because...
....

To quote BearBear:
God foresaw it would be a controversial book. There are verses in the Revelation which foresee this and warn the reader not to ignore or change the book:

In Chapter 1 verse 3, it mentions that those who read Revelation will be blessed:

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it.."

And Chapter 22 verse 9 warns against changing the words of Revelation:

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." ...


Awareness,

The notion that we get a vote on what should be in the Bible is bizarre. We have the Bible because of God's Sovereignty. Not because of man's reasonings. The Bible was canonized, as is, because God is up to the task. By faith, we believe this.

Talk about a warning! "Don't mess with my book." Rev. 22:9 (my translation).

Nell

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

Revelation is a book of visions and nightmares, with a Jesus that does not turn the other check, love neighbors, or enemies. Reason may not apply. Faith is necessary ... to accept a Jesus antithetical to Jesus in the gospels.

Jesus is downright scary in Revelation because he is transitioning from his role as our High Priest who is interceding for us in heaven (Heb 4:14) to his destined role as King of kings and Lord of lords over the world (Rev 19:16)**. But in order to take over the world, he has to first judge it and destroy the satanic authority and kingdom present in it. Interestingly, the Hebrew word picture for peace, "Shalom" means to "destroy the authority of chaos". True Shalom cannot exist while Satan still has authority.

http://www.verserain.com/verseset/sh...7ab072f26e347d

This is not out of character with the rest of scripture and is consistent with what the prophets have predicted regarding the Messiah's second coming and eventual rule over the world. Jesus fulfilled 353 prophecies regarding his first coming, but there are even more prophecies in the OT concerning the second (hence why the Jews were so confused by Jesus' claim to be Messiah because they all thought he would only come once to become King and not die first to come again).

So the first time Jesus came was to save the world and not to judge it (John 12:47), but the second time he comes will be to judge the world so he can take it over. So in sense we are in the "age of grace". God is waiting for everyone of his elect to repent before he returns, because when he does it will be too late. Yet regardless of whether or not he is coming soon, none of us know if we are going to die today or tomorrow so daily repentance and obedience is something we should all practice.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

** And who are these 'kings' and 'lords' that Jesus is a King of? but us! The ones who are faithful! (See 2 Tim 2:12)

[bearbear]

I have a friend who worked as an algorithmic trader in wall street who is not really a believer. I showed him Cahn's video on Sid Roth and asked him what he thought about the dates. As we were doing a little research we came across this CNN article from September 29, 2008 :

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/mark...rkets_newyork/

In the same article, it lists two dates as significant crashes of this century:

Sept. 29, 2008
"Stocks skidded Monday, with the Dow slumping nearly 778 points, in the biggest single-day point loss ever, after the House rejected the government's $700 billion bank bailout plan.

The day's loss knocked out approximately $1.2 trillion in market value, the first post-$1 trillion day ever, according to a drop in the Dow Jones Wilshire 5000, the broadest measure of the stock market."

and Sept 17, 2001
"The Dow Jones industrial average (INDU) lost 777.68, surpassing the 684.81 loss on Sept. 17, 2001"

So we looked up those two dates to see what they were on the Hebrew calendar.

Surely enough these two dates fell on Elul 29:
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/...th=9&year=2008

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/...th=9&year=2001

His jaw kind of dropped and he got really silent.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

Hi Dave,

Actually, my question was "If God wanted to warn you about something, anything, how would He do it?" I certainly wouldn't rule out comets, earthquakes, etc., (I did say 'anything') but I had something less catastrophic in mind.

For example, years ago one of my good friends talked to me about a problem she was having. She couldn't decide whether or not it was OK to sleep with her boyfriend. I told her "Some questions you don't have to ask. What does the Bible say?" I didn't need to, or have to, tell her what to do. The Bible speaks for itself. So, God's Word delivered a message to my friend. Perhaps a warning.

So, in that context, God speaks to us through His Word with many messages, which include encouragement, comfort, rebuke, and warnings, to name a few.

When I was in the LC had the experience of hearing a message from someone other than WL, et al, and rejecting it out of hand because it wasn't from the "oracle". It was a good message, but I was taught only to listen to the big "O". Like a dope, I did it.

There are unlikely sources that the Lord may send to speak a message of warning to us. One of my all-time favorites is Baalam's ass. Numbers 22:21-39 tells the story. On this thread, JCahn's rep is worse than that of Baalam's ass. However, if God can use BA to send a messenge, He can also use JCahn. Forget JCahn, but pay attention to the message. File it away. Pray for wisdom and guidance. I'm sure you're doing that anyway.
Nell

Nell
Good question! Thanks for your clarification. In any case, you were not alone. Many of us were mesmerized by the Oracle and the conferences in Anaheim were a good time to directly experience divine revelation, so to speak.

It appears that maybe you are contrasting the “warning” that is given by Cahn as to what I would expect a warning to be if I don’t accept Cahn’s warning. Of course, Cahn hedges his bet with his warning (in regards to the Shemitah) indicating that there is no guarantee that anything will happen but be on the alert every seventh year. Of course, if you look on the “official” Cahn website they are listing things such as ISIS, ebola, drop in the stock market etc so they are listing major issues of global concern so my comet warning is not far off the mark.

In any case, you have narrowed it down to the example of Balaam’s ass and, no, I haven’t envisioned an angel standing in the road to warn me although that would be a cool experience. There have been things in my life which have been fortuitous so maybe there was some intervention of some sort there. Of course, how the Bible speaks to you compared to me may be different, probably very different but it does speak in various ways to everyone. I don’t think I look for nor have I experienced direct exposition of the Word such as you recall.

Originally Posted by Nell

How do you know JCahn is in it for the money? How does Awareness know? (Really. How "aware" is Awareness?) On what do you base your opinion? Have you researched it? I have. I haven't found anything stating what he does with the proceeds of his book sales yet. Before forming an opinion, and before accusing a brother, there are ways to find out the facts of the matter.

Nell

When I went on Cahn’s church’s website they have about 2000 DVDs/CDs of Cahn’s messages for sale at $15/$8 a piece (discounted in bulk). Many churches provide messages of sermons online for free so it just appears that everything he is associated with is about money. We were fortunate to obtain his Inaugural Breakfast message for free on youtube because everything else costs money. There is such a thing as a false prophet---consider that Jesus went into the temple and tried to clean it:

John 2:13 (NIV) When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

No, I don't know what he is using the money for other than promoting his ideas. If you can find something noble then let me know and maybe I'll change my viewpoint.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

OBW, I don't like to respond to you. Every reply from me generates a Straw-man from you, or you read something into a message that isn't there.

Here's the message: Christians live by faith, looking to those who have gone before for encouragement for the future. This would seem to be a message that could be taken at face value. I can't even post some verses from the Bible without your questioning my intent.

Further, I don't know how to respond to a group of Christians on a Christian website, who are questioning the inclusion of the book of the Revelation in the Bible, saying John was on an LSD trip when he wrote it. This is beyond the pale. You have to start somewhere, and for Christians, the Bible is pretty near the top. Hebrews 11 is the best I can do.

It should be obvious by now that all people don't think the same way.

Could you not just ask "Nell, what do you mean by this...?"

Nell

Sorry you don't like the way I ask a question.

First, I'm not sure where he "strawman" complaint came from since I could not conclude what your point was. I think I need to be misrepresenting your point, or rather changing it into something else so that I can defeat it for it to be a strawman. Asking what is the point is for the purpose of avoiding a strawman.

But it would seem by the variety of answers from others that the answer to my question was not obvious. In fact, you didn't simply respond to my original post to you, but rather to my response to others providing their variety of answers (presumably based on their guess about your meaning).

I went through what I did so that it would not be seen as simply some troublesome request to post more, or an irrational request. I honestly believe that where the meaning is obvious, there is no need for more comment. But the meaning was not obvious, so I asked for more.

When you respond with "it should be obvious by now that all people don't think the same way" that should have provided your own reasons for being willing to respond. We don't all think the same way. You had something in mind when you posted and it was obvious to you. But not to me. And it would appear by he variety of responses by others that it was not to them either.

I was not being snippy. I was not creating a strawman. I honestly wanted to understand the reason for the post. If it was just an aside, then I would enjoy it as such (not that I did not do that anyway). If you intended to make a general comment about what had gone before, whether in my post or another, that was not clear. The direction and intent was not obvious. So I asked.

You don't necessarily have to quote from any post. Just providing your own thoughts related to the verses that give your thoughts about (fill in the blank idea that has been expressed) is good.

As for pointing to awareness, I can agree with you somewhat. He does seem to get a bit of a thrill from being a contrarian or coming up with novel thoughts. But that doesn't mean we can just reject everything that he says as pointless or meaningless.

For example, when the opening passage says "what must soon take place," there becomes a level of uncertainty for people living in a time that is about half as much after that writing as the simplest version of the creation of the earth is said to be before it. Answering with "a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years" does not respond to the fact that the passage speaks to mankind with "soon take place." The verse about the 1 = 1,000 and/or 1,000 = 1 is talking about the fact that God is essentially outside of our time constraints. He is not bound in this universe of time. But we are still in time and the writing was to us, not an explanation about God, so the assumption that 1 = 1,000 and 1,000 = 1 is not necessarily a meaningful answer.

I am not trying to push that version of Revelation as simply about the fall of Jerusalem as some do. But there is a question as to whether there is something in Revelation about that as well as so much about the end times. Maybe the so-called split in the book is more than just a retelling with different emphasis. Not saying that I have really considered that, but I have often wondered whether we say that is what it is because someone some years earlier said it and it has just stuck. Since there is no hard evidence to refute either, the first version out of the box often gains the upper hand.

My comments about Revelation are not meant to dismiss it. I have faith that it is somehow telling us about the ultimate judgment on Satan and his followers as was promised first in Genesis 3 and then in more detail in later passages. I see the restoration of man as occurring in two phases, in this life, and through a reading of Revelation, in full along with the restoration of the earth.

But my experience and observation has been that focusing too much on Revelation is often at the expense of necessary focus on faith and obedience in this life on a day-to-day basis. That is the underpinning of my comments and questions. And when I made that first comment about agreeing at least a little with Harold, that is all it was about. It was about his comment. Not whatever else he said or whoever it was that he was engaged with.

It was a jumping-off point for a variant position that did link to his.

You've been on these forums since I first started participating roughly 9 years ago (if I remember correctly). You should know that I try to be clear (and sometimes succeed). And I try to discover what is being said or meant to be said. I am not shy about speaking my opinion, as are many others. And my posts are often complained about as being too long.

To the extent that I have had a beef with you these few days, it has been about the perception that you want to hold out a position for which the necessary evidence of validity does not seem to be there and you don't want to help fill the gaps. That is its own issue. Do not presume that when I ask about something else that my angst has transferred and I am picking on you. I am not. If awareness, aron, or Ohio had posted the very same words, I would have asked them — probably in a similar fashion. The only common theme is the desire for enough information to understand the purpose and point of any particular post.

So, if you made it this far, understand that I follow your response. At the same time, you did not actually indicate how it responded to my post (if it was intended to — which could be the problem . . . maybe it was not) and not to whatever it was what awareness said that was not what I was talking about. Faith is important. We live by it. And we accept some things that we don't understand, like a fair bit of Revelation, because of our faith.

And maybe the problem is that the way I jumped off of awareness' post made it appear that I was buying into all that he said. That was not the case. But if that was the point, then it may have more to do with what he said than what I said.

And if so, then I have gotten what I wanted — something to understand.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

How do you know JCahn is in it for the money? How does Awareness know? (Really. How "aware" is Awareness?)

Only as aware as the news I look into.

And according to the news on Cahn, in the lawsuit against David James, author of "The Harbinger: Fact or Fiction?" Cahn's publisher and attorney claim that the book is cutting into profits.

I would take that as a solid indicator that Cahn is into it for the money.

And here's an interesting observation in the article:
An industry observer remarked, "Ironically, the tables have turned in the past 25 years. Today, books warning of heretical doctrine and false prophets are no longer profitable for mainstream Christian publishers, and would never, ever make the New York Times bestseller list. Instead, false claims and questionable teaching are their stock and trade."

Read the article yourself ... and ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the truth.
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/1198271448.html

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

To quote BearBear:
God foresaw it would be a controversial book. There are verses in the Revelation which foresee this and warn the reader not to ignore or change the book:
And Chapter 22 verse 9 warns against changing the words of Revelation:

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." ...
Nell

You may or may not know this but historical NT scholars (not just one or two) who have studied many of the ancient written books during early Christianity have noted, "stating a warning not to change the words of books during early Christianity" was often a "red flag" that the book was a forgery. I am not saying that Revelation is a forgery but just because that statement is in Revelation does not give me a lot of confidence as to its authenticity.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I have a friend who worked as an algorithmic trader in wall street who is not really a believer. I showed him Cahn's video on Sid Roth and asked him what he thought about the dates. As we were doing a little research we came across this CNN article from September 29, 2008 :

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/mark...rkets_newyork/

In the same article, it lists two dates as significant crashes of this century:

Sept. 29, 2008
"Stocks skidded Monday, with the Dow slumping nearly 778 points, in the biggest single-day point loss ever, after the House rejected the government's $700 billion bank bailout plan.

The day's loss knocked out approximately $1.2 trillion in market value, the first post-$1 trillion day ever, according to a drop in the Dow Jones Wilshire 5000, the broadest measure of the stock market."

and Sept 17, 2001
"The Dow Jones industrial average (INDU) lost 777.68, surpassing the 684.81 loss on Sept. 17, 2001"

So we looked up those two dates to see what they were on the Hebrew calendar.

Surely enough these two dates fell on Elul 29:
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/...th=9&year=2008

http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/...th=9&year=2001

His jaw kind of dropped and he got really silent.

Thanks Bear-bear,

Your friend might be interested in these dates/events. These are discussed in the book:

The Crash of 1901-1903, brought on by the struggles of E. H. Harriman, Jacob Schiff and J. P. Morgan to gain financial control of Northern Pacific Railroad often referred to as the 1901-1903 depression.
The Crash of 1916-1917, World War I
The Crash of 1930-1932, the Great Depression
The Crash of 1937-1938, The recession of the Great Depression
The Crash of 1973, the crash of multiple crises
The Crash of 2000-2001, the dot.com crash.
The Crash of 2007-2008, the Great Recession

I don't remember if all of these events happened on Elul 29 during the Shemitah year as clearly as 2001 and 2008, I don't think they did. But, there was definite overlap to some degree during the 7-year cycle which is key.

Deuteronomy 15:1-2
Debts Canceled Every Seven Years

15 “At the end of every seven years you shall grant a release of debts. 2 And this is the form of the release: Every creditor who has lent anything to his neighbor shall release it; he shall not require it of his neighbor or his brother, because it is called the Lord’s release."

So this is what happened on Elul 29 (Sept 17, 2001) and (Sept. 29, 2008). When the stock markets crashed on these two dates, there was essentially a forced "release of debts". "At the end of every seven years" refers to the last day of the seventh year which is always Elul 29.

I did some research and discovered that the American League won the World Series in all but 4 years of the 7-year cycle of the Shemitah since 1916-17.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

You may or may not know this but historical NT scholars (not just one or two) who have studied many of the ancient written books during early Christianity have noted, "stating a warning not to change the words of books during early Christianity" was often a "red flag" that the book was a forgery. I am not saying that Revelation is a forgery but just because that statement is in Revelation does not give me a lot of confidence as to its authenticity.

Questioning the authenticity of Rev. methinks pulls the rug out from under those that really don't want to love their neighbors, but rather would like to see their neighbors judged, and the wrath of God poured out on them.

And this is Cahn's stock and trade. "Lord, get this nasty world, and all the nasty people in it. Let ME out of here."

[OBW]

Some specific statements in recent posts:

Sept. 29, 2008: "Stocks skidded Monday, with the Dow slumping nearly 778 points, in the biggest single-day point loss ever . . .

A 7% drop, compared with the 37% drop from October 29, 1929 - mid 1932. And to look at the point drop is really to exaggerate the effect.
But more interesting, it seems that the recession referred to as being in 2007 and 2008 was really in 2008 - 2009. And even though the stock market began to recover from its low in 2009, the economy struggled for a while longer.

Let's look at these items from Cahn's book:

The Crash of 1901-1903, brought on by the struggles of E. H. Harriman, Jacob Schiff and J. P. Morgan to gain financial control of Northern Pacific Railroad often referred to as the 1901-1903 depression.
The Crash of 1916-1917, World War I
The Crash of 1930-1932, the Great Depression
The Crash of 1937-1938, The recession of the Great Depression
The Crash of 1973, the crash of multiple crises
The Crash of 2000-2001, the dot.com crash.
The Crash of 2007-2008, the Great Recession

The last one is more notably bad. The crash was from early-mid 2008 through mid 2009. The dot.com debacle began in 2000, but as of early 2002, while it did have a big drop in 01 from which it had recovered, did not really go "south" until mid 2002 had not recovered until about the beginning of 2004.

A look at the history of the stock market shows that there have been approximately 28 years that had notable drops. A few of these are part of ongoing drops, like the 4 years from 1929 through 1932. If you catalogue them in terms of events/downturns/crashes, there are about 22, of which 9 are major.

The 16-17 and 37-38 recessions did not really show up on the stock market.

Stack these in seven-year batches and a pattern emerges. And the pattern is the lack of a pattern, or more accurately, the pattern of cherry-picking events out of a rather random population by someone with an agenda. (Seems like studies of acupuncture.)

The events are neither skewed to any particular seven-year cycle, nor are they uniformly scattered over the population. One sequence of 7 years had only 1 event included. 2 had 2. 1 had 3. 1 had 6 and 2 had 7.

There were periods of 17 years, 10 years, and 8 years in which there was no notable downturn.

The only conclusion from this is that if you just look at the stock market, you can probably cherry-pick events that linked on or close to any number of days or cycles of years, if you are willing to just see it happen once or twice here and there. Add in the somewhat different cycle of recessions and depressions which do not necessarily coincide with the stock market downturns (often seem disconnected) and you have a rather large scatter of data to establish anything you want if you hide the bulk of the data that is not consistent with your theory.

Patterns are not found by selecting items that fit a premise from a population that does not. They are found by seeing something in the data as a whole that suggests something more than random chance. There is no statistical analysis that will give you a Shemitah. Rather, it will deny any such clear pattern. Not even a hidden pattern.

[OBW]

And a follow-on to all of the above.

From 1900 through about today, the stock market has gone from 68 to 16,750. That is a 24,532% increase. A little over doubling every 10 years.

And while it is 14 years, from 2000 through 2014 is about 143%. Close to about doubling over 10 years. Even with the drops in there.

So what do the drops tell us? What do they really mean? Doesn't look like judgment.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by OBW

And a follow-on to all of the above.

From 1900 through about today, the stock market has gone from 68 to 16,750. That is a 24,532% increase. A little over doubling every 10 years.

And while it is 14 years, from 2000 through 2014 is about 143%. Close to about doubling over 10 years. Even with the drops in there.

So what do the drops tell us? What do they really mean? Doesn't look like judgment.

Exactly. They are called business cycles and well documented. It doesn't mean that everything is perfect such as the major recession of 2008 but we go through cycles.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Exactly. They are called business cycles and well documented. It doesn't mean that everything is perfect such as the major recession of 2008 but we go through cycles.

I told you guys that after 5 or 6 youtube's on Cahn it was obvious that he's seeing things that aren't there. He must be seeing figments in his own head. Or like one of my Christian friends here that sees Panoramic movies in the sky, while driving (worry 'bout that girl).

Sis Nell might be right: what Cahn is seeing is from God.

In less than a year comes the last blood moon, on Sept. 28th 2015. It will all be revealed then. Cahn did say nothing might happen. So that prediction of his might actually come true.

But is it worth the price of his books? I guess some believers have throw-away money. They'd do better to throw it to the poor ... methinks ... that's just me thinking ... count it for dung. It didn't cost me nut'n. And I give it away for free. But I do have a paypal account, if any of y'all just have money you don't need laying 'round, hit me in PMs.

Ha-rold

[Nell]

I hope you all are right.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

I hope you all are right.

Nell

I hope you are wrong Nell. I love my neighbors and don't wish any harm to them ; especially for just a few miscreants that are displeasing God. Most of our neighbors aren't really all that reprehensible.

Not like the pagan days, when Revelation, and Daniel, were written. It all made more sense back then ... then it does today.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

I hope you all are right.

Nell

Nell, the only thing we can be certain of is that Cahn will write another book which I would venture to guess will be called, the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse"

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

I hope you are wrong Nell. I love my neighbors and don't wish any harm to them ; especially for just a few miscreants that are displeasing God. Most of our neighbors aren't really all that reprehensible.

Not like the pagan days, when Revelation, and Daniel, were written. It all made more sense back then ... then it does today.

Awareness,

If your hope is that "I'm wrong", you misunderstand my message. I don't believe in Jonathan Cahn. This is what I believe, and it's a message for me, you and your neighbors, too. Its lyrics from one of my favorite songs.

We Believe
We believe in the Father, who created all that is
And we believe the universe and all therein is His
As a loving heavenly Father, He yearned to save us all
To lift us from the fall . . . We believe

We believe in Jesus the Father’s only Son
Existing uncreated before time had begun
A sacrifice for sin, He died then rose again
To ransom sinful men, We believe

We believe in the spirit who makes believers one
Our hearts are filled with His presence
The Comforter has come
The kingdom unfolds in His plan
Unhindered by quarrels of man
His church upheld by His hand . . . We believe

Though the earth be removed
And time be no more
These truths are secure
God’s word shall endure
Whatever may change, these things are sure . . . We believe

So if the mountains are cast down into the plains
When kingdoms all crumble, this one remains
Our faith is not subject to seasons of man
With our fathers we proclaim

We believe our Lord will come as he said
The land and the sea will give up their dead
His children will reign with Him as their head
We believe
We believe

(Words and music by Nathan DiGesare and Dan Scott)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness,

If your hope is that "I'm wrong", you misunderstand my message. I don't believe in Jonathan Cahn. This is what I believe, and it's a message for me, you and your neighbors, too. Its lyrics from one of my favorite songs.

We Believe
We believe in the Father, who created all that is
And we believe the universe and all therein is His
As a loving heavenly Father, He yearned to save us all
To lift us from the fall . . . We believe

We believe in Jesus the Father’s only Son
Existing uncreated before time had begun
A sacrifice for sin, He died then rose again
To ransom sinful men, We believe

We believe in the spirit who makes believers one
Our hearts are filled with His presence
The Comforter has come
The kingdom unfolds in His plan
Unhindered by quarrels of man
His church upheld by His hand . . . We believe

Though the earth be removed
And time be no more
These truths are secure
God’s word shall endure
Whatever may change, these things are sure . . . We believe

So if the mountains are cast down into the plains
When kingdoms all crumble, this one remains
Our faith is not subject to seasons of man
With our fathers we proclaim

We believe our Lord will come as he said
The land and the sea will give up their dead
His children will reign with Him as their head
We believe
We believe

(Words and music by Nathan DiGesare and Dan Scott)

Great song. Sounds like the Apostles' Creed. Sorta off topic.

We're talking about Cahn, Prophecy, Revelation, and coming judgement ... aren't we?

So for your song to be directly on topic it requires at least one more verse. Something like:

We Believe
We believe in the golden bowls
Filled the wrath of God.
And the seven angels
Pouring out plagues
And the wrath of God
On the whole earth.
And people crying out
In torment.


See what I mean about the book of Revelation. It makes for non-Christ-like thinking and believing. It makes for crazy.

Why do we seem to be drawn to an angry wrathful God? John, the real John, said, "God is Love," not God is wrath. Revelation must be a forgery. There's no Christ, that we see in the gospels, in it ... and the real John couldn't have written such a book.

And it's made obvious that many believers are drawn to an angry God by the sales of Cahn's books. Cahn is selling the hating of our neighbors, by claiming God is gonna judge them. He's selling judgment. And believers are lapping it up.

The real question, the BIG question is: WHY?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

See what I mean about the book of Revelation. It makes for non-Christ-like thinking and believing. It makes for crazy.

Why do we seem to be drawn to an angry wrathful God? John, the real John, said, "God is Love," not God is wrath. Revelation must be a forgery. There's no Christ, that we see in the gospels, in it ... and the real John couldn't have written such a book.

The earthly suffering in Revelation is bad, but nothing compared to eternal torment and damnation in hell which Jesus spent one third of his earthly ministry talking and warning about.

Many Christians struggle with reconciling a God of love with a God who is not only wrathful but is okay with eternal damnation and torment of souls. Some, such as Rob Bell and other Universalists have taken the view that an eternal hell and a God of love is incompatible and hell must only be temporary or it must not exist.

I believe it is possible to reconcile a God of love with a God of wrath who judges with eternal damnation/torment.

I've grown into a view of God as an incredibly powerful and holy misunderstood being who has trouble controlling his own holiness, though not to any fault of his own-- I like to conjure the picture of the incredible Hulk, or even the Sun which sustains life but can be indiscriminately powerful and kill.

Scripture says God is a consuming fire (Deut 4:24) and he dwells in unapproachable light (1 Tim 6:6). The OT is full of examples of God's wrath being poured out on unrepentant beings. He even almost wiped out the Israelites, the very people he chose and called out (Exodus 32:10), if not for Moses' intervention and intercession.

God's holiness even wipes out good, well intentioned people who are not aware of his power such as when Uzzah touched the ark to steady it and got zapped to death (2 Samuel 6:7). Does God delight in such wanton destruction?

Scripture says God does not delight in suffering and does not willingly bring affliction (Lamentation 3:33).

The Hebrew word picture for love is "the heart of the Father revealed". Deep inside God's being is heart of love, from which the source of all love in the universe emanates (1 John 4:7)-- and Jesus was the very expression of that love (John 14:9).

The problem of hell is really a problem of God's wrath and holiness which burns against sin, including all vessels which allow the sin to manifest and operate (1 John 3:8). God realizes this and did everything he could do to take care of the problem of his own holiness that would work in the system that he operates in.

The only thing that could appease God's wrath is something of value, no amount of silver or gold or works is enough as money has no value to God (Psalm 49:7-8), but only the sacrifice of a perfect life-- something that only God himself could accomplish by becoming a man. So God did not spare his one and only Son that he loved dearly to become the sacrifice that could appease His own wrath. This was the only solution to God's own holiness, as there was no other way. Jesus even begged the Father to find some other solution at Gethsemane, but there was none (Matthew 26:39)

So God did everything he could. The rest is up to us as God cannot violate our free will or force himself on us.

And it gets better. Not only are we saved from God's wrath, but by Jesus' blood we have access to the Holy of Holies, the Holiest place (Heb 10:19) and we will be able see God face to face (1 Cor 13:12).

We all should have been objects of God's wrath (Romans 9:22) but in his grace he considers us as his own children (Heb 12:6)!

It's impossible to fathom the depth of God's love and grace without also understanding the depths of his holiness. Rather than contradicting each other, God's holiness actually complements his love.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Many Christians struggle with reconciling a God of love with a God who is not only wrathful but is okay with eternal damnation and torment of souls.

I believe it is possible to reconcile a God of love with a God of wrath who is okay with eternal damnation/torment.

A God of wrath who is okay with eternal damnation/torment. What about all of the innocents? Don't you think that Christians should struggle with reconciling a God of love with a God of wrath and eternal damnation and tormenting of souls? Your scripture quotes appear to be dismissive of some important issues in this regard. Note that "It is for your piety that he reproves you…" Job 22:4-7,9-10

Why should we condemn the Nazis for their killing of 6 million Jews and 20 million Russians? This is an example in your view of God's wrath as you have described it. Auschwitz... You like the picture...was that a picture of God's mercy and holiness? What did they do other than be Jewish? We can quote scripture and describe an unholy "god" who is merciless, worse than the Nazis. Is that your picture of your God? It's not mine!!! If it is than I don't want any part of your God and I can't understand why you wouldn't understand why others are troubled by these ideas and portrayed pictures of a merciless God who allows the innocents to be tormented.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Dave

A God of wrath who is okay with eternal damnation/torment. What about all of the innocents? Don't you think that Christians should struggle with reconciling a God of love with a God of wrath and eternal damnation and tormenting of souls? Your scripture quotes appear to be dismissive of some important issues in this regard. Note that "It is for your piety that he reproves you…" Job 22:4-7,9-10

God is just and does not condemn the innocent (2 Thess 1:6). People who end up in hell are not innocent but are reaping what they have sown.

Ezekiel 18:20
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

Also "Innocent" has to be from God's point of view. What the world views as innocent is perhaps different from what an eternal, all powerful, all knowing God considers "innocent" and only his point of view matters because he is the Judge.

Why should we condemn the Nazis for their killing of 6 million Jews and 20 million Russians? This is an example in your view of God's wrath as you have described it. Auschwitz... You like the picture...was that a picture of God's mercy and holiness? What did they do other than be Jewish? We can quote scripture and describe an unholy "god" who is merciless, worse than the Nazis. Is that your picture of your God? It's not mine!!! If it is than I don't want any part of your God and I can't understand why you wouldn't understand why others are troubled by these ideas and portrayed pictures of a merciless God who allows the innocents to be tormented.

The suffering in this world, including the suffering of the Jewish people is not a result of God's wrath, though God can allow it by simply lifting his hand of protection. Matthew 12:20 seems to suggest that God won't lift a finger to judge the world until the "Day of the Lord". I guess this kind of contradicts Cahn's warning of judgment happening before Jesus comes-- unless it also coincides with the Day of the Lord / Daniel's 70th week and the events described in Revelation. Or perhaps God views these events as warnings rather than judgment, (God chastises his children because he loves them, Hebrews 12:6).

Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he has brought justice through to victory.

I believe God is okay with allowing suffering because those who suffer will have their mourning made up for in eternity as was the case of Lazarus (Luke 16:14-31). However the rich man who enjoyed his life but ignored the poor suffered a horrible fate that could not be undone. Those who are first will be last and vice versa. The sermon on the mount also echoes this principle such as

Matthew 5:4
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

Our current life is like a vapor or mist, we are here today and gone tomorrow (James 4:14). But because human experience is limited to the life we live in this world, we tend to overvalue our own life at the cost of our eternity, something that Jesus warned about a lot (Luke 9:60, Matthew 16:26). From the viewpoint of time, the only thing that matters is eternity and the decisions we make in this life that affect ours and other's eternity. Hence, the suffering that really matters in God's eyes, is the suffering that happens in eternity which trumps any suffering that happens while we are alive on this earth.

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?