I've been reading for about 8 years
I've been reading for about 8 years and I want to thank you very, very sincerely for the running of and contribution to this website. It helped me to realize that I was not crazy...just perceptive about a dysfunctional group.
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Your story is helpful to others, if you feel led to share it. Yours is why I post. Helping others is a way to be helped myself. The LC had many precious blessings from the Lord and many precious brothers and sisters. The leaders ruined what blessing we had. Plain and simple. |
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Then, occasionally, and fitfully, and slowly, a shared consensus begins to emerge. That I really like. It really feels like I'm participating in a discussion. Mutually beneficial; everybody learns. It's not just a bunch of people writing past each other. Contrast that to Lee: when did he ever have a discussion with a fellow believer? I remember he said no one had taught him anything for 45 years. That this discussion has blessed our readers is an encouraging 'amen' from God. |
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While I was there at Christians at Campus I never thought them as being heathens. I knew they were born again Christians. Yet, like you, I thought there was something wrong with me. I never fit in. I would try, but I couldn't. I would try to say "Oh Lord Jesus!", but it always tasted like blasphemy. Then at times I would see Facebook posts of them taking photos, or even making a video... but they never invited me to participate in this. Don't get me wrong, they did a lot of trouble to try to see me. They would make time or pick me up at my flat for meetings during the week. After a while I wondered whether or not I was missing something. Whether or not I was even saved. This morning I sat on my favourite spot drinking coffee and reading 1 Samuel. While I read it I realised that this year I feel closer to God. I am more in Him than ever before. Still not nearly as much as I should be, but a lot more than I was while at CoC. Usually a person, especially a Christian, grows while things are going badly. Yet even though last year was the worst year of my life, I barely grew. |
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The original comment on this thread is mine from my email to request membership. I was a bit surprised to see it had been posted here...but after being a long time reader I suppose it was what I needed to push me onto the forum.
I really am grateful to all of you who regularly participate here. Especially long-time consistent posters such as Ohio, Aron, Terry, OBW, Igzy, UntoHim- I probably shouldn't even mention individuals because so many of you have contributed so greatly. Not only have I felt a strong fellowship with you, but I've learned so much about faith, theology, etc., and have better learned to discern my own personal faith and belief. I was saved as a young child and raised in a Christian home. I did not grow up in the "Recovery" but came into contact with the group during my high school years through my then boyfriend, eventual husband. Pressure was incredibly strong and destructive from my in-laws. I tried to buy in when I was younger, but it never sat well or rang completely true to me. Still, for years I wondered if I was willfully turning my back on God's purpose/economy/move on the earth. It's amazing to me how easily the hooks of these types of groups can embed themselves into one's psyche. Thankfully, my husband had no interest in remaining in the Recovery and we haven't attended in many years. Besides the extreme judgement and negativity spoken of other Christians, even in the meetings, one of the final straws was witnessing the pray reading of Witness Lee's footnotes (as if they were equal to scripture) in multiple locations/states. I could no longer justify that it was just one extreme, dysfunctional locality, but that there were serious errors and dysfunctions with the system itself. We are involved in a church where we live, but for years it was hard not to judge other Christians based on Recovery standards. We are finally getting past that. I chose OnHisPath as my user name because the Lord has always been faithful to lead me personally, and also my family, and keep us securely on His path for us. And praise the Lord it has nothing to do with our association with a specific and elite group. |
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Check is in the mail....and we pay extra for sisters around here....as you have probably gathered already, brothers "in their mind" are a dime-a-dozen around this place.:p
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Like you, we are all recovering "judgaholics." Sometimes posting on this forum with current LC members I suffer a relapse. |
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I don't recall the Bible saying that the Bride would be Egyptian Coptics, or anyone other than just Christians.
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Like you, I have to guard against my natural propensity for judgement and bitterness being turned on members of the LC. |
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That's bad..even Lee did not believe that. I always keep in mind that a certain percentage of church members are psychopaths or sociopaths, cult followers, or wolves in sheep's clothing. We've had problems with cults (real cults, that is) before.
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These ones in Egypt were beheaded for believing in the Son of God. Our Heavenly Father only sees them as beloved children. A new name is written on their foreheads. Let's see if your faith is anywhere close to these martyrs. I highly doubt it, since LSM will file a lawsuit if you look at them cross-eyed. |
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For example, I migrated to start up two new churches with other saints, only to later watch them hurt and damaged by manipulations from outsiders. In both cases there was a battle between headquarters in Cleveland and Anaheim over who had the "rights" to draft our ministering elders. So much for our so-called liberty to follow the Lord. |
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How can you talk about LC members in this way? |
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I do not think, if asked directly, Witness Lee would have ever said that those outside of the LC cannot be true Christians (same is true for most LC members). However, the informal speaking, and even testimony during meetings that I witnessed many times, clearly highlighted the dysfunctional group dynamics of a religious system that thrived on an "us against them" mentality. To me, this is true division. Not a sign on the outside of a building. It is the cultural dynamics of the LC that foster a, possibly inadvertant, divisive spirit among some people. We know that God looks at the heart, and "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". The divisive speaking against other Christians is a real problem. |
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Witness Lee loved to compare the best of the Recovery with the worst of Christianity, as if it were a valid comparison, placing them in the balances for us to choose. This distorted montage only worked when LC members never ventured out of doors. Paul speaks of those who "make" divisions or who are "actively" aligning themselves with only one minister, even if it was Paul himself. This was Lee to a tee. He was constantly sowing distinctions, highlighting differences, comparing and contrasting his little movement with the whole body of Christ. Perhaps the motive was simple -- it covered for corruption. After years in the Recovery, I believed that Lee and his ministry were as pure as the driven snow. That's what he told us, and no one around me said anything to the contrary. As long as he could keep a lid on the flow of information, things worked great. Then that evil internet came along ... |
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My logic is illustrated in Luke 18 when the Pharisee and tax collector prayed very different prayers, and only one went home justified. As Christians, we should all be begging God to be merciful to us, not pointing out the way everyone else sins and the way we believe we are "right" or even "ordained". As a Christian, I am one with the Christ in every other believer, no matter how nominally or incorrectly I believe they practice their faith. I don't have to agree with their practice, or copy their practice, or even participate in their practice at all. But I don't judge where the Lord has led them up to this point in their lives. When it's clear that they indeed have Christ in them, we are one. I am not Catholic and I wouldn't bow to a statue of Mary, but I am one with Catholic believers who trust in Christ. Why do you think asking what denomination someone attends is divisive? I love finding out where others fellowship and attend church. But I'm coming from a viewpoint that we are already one. Maybe that's the difference. |
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In the thread, "Do you think Christianity is degraded?" You posted this: "The genuine church is founded not on doctrine nor practice, but is...founded on the person of Christ Jesus himself." This is the point I'm trying to make. And it's so encouraging for me to see that ultimately we agree! Whoever has Christ is one and is the church. If someone is practicing more perfectly than me, but doesn't truly have Christ, there is nothing for me to be one with. I don't care about being one in practice. I want oneness in Christ because that is what He wants. |
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Regardless, I really appreciate you commenting on my thoughts and helping me to engage in this conversation. It's a good exercise.:) |
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How is that any different? So, you say it's only geography. But when brothers and sisters in the trainings from the GLA expressed divergent views, they would be dismissed as "being with Titus." How is that any different from being dismissed for being a Baptist, or from the Church of Christ, or a community church? |
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If you truly believed that you were one with them, you could or would not ask them that question. The concept of "my church" and "your church" is contrary to the belief that you profess. It is like saying, "I believe my brother in the flesh is part of my family, but I will ask him of which family he belongs". If they are one with you in Christ, then they are in the same church as you are. |
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I usually ask something along the lines of, "Where do you fellowship?" My church/your church is not language I would typically use. It is impossible to fellowship with all believers on the earth, so asking someone where they do fellowship isn't incongruous with my beliefs at all. And I'm never offended that people fellowship someplace other than me that also has a name. We are one regardless. No big deal unless I want to make it a matter of division in my heart.
Your example of family is perfectly acceptable when you consider the sheer number of believers on the earth and that we are spread apart by country and continent. In fact, the definition of a clan as a group of close-knit and interrelated families, and secondly, a group of people with a strong common interest would provide a very good picture of people who are "one" or related, but might ask which family they belong to. |
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Agree that is a much better question to ask. Thankyou for your sharing, great discussion.
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Proverbs 29:25 The fear of man lays a snare, but whoever trusts the Lord is safe. |
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