Prophecy - The End Times [Archive] - Page 2

Matt Anderson

02-07-2023, 06:05 AM

Apostle Paul clearly told the disciples that our Lord Jesus Christ cannot return unto this son of perdition firstly is revealed as he seats himself in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Ths 2.1-5)

Now switching to serious mode...

Take a look at Young's Literal Translation and then I have a few questions.

Daniel 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many—one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.’

Young, R. (1997). Young’s Literal Translation (Da 9:27)

1. Question #1 - most translations say "make a covenant", but the literal text is "strengthened a covenant". It could be a pre-existing agreement that is "strengthened", not made. Do you think it is "make a covenant" or "strengthened a covenant"?

2. Question #2 - Is it an interpretive jump to go from "a covenant with many" to a covenant with Israel? I think it is. Who are "the many"? I can't find evidence that it is solely Israel.

3. Question #3 - How do you reconcile "by the wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of a physical temple of God? What feature of the Temple of God can be thought of as a "wing of abominations". If you cannot resolve the "wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of the Temple of God then you have a interpretive problem here. There are many physical pictures in the Old Testament that resolve to spiritual realities in the New Testament Age. We know that Jesus made a temple not made with human hands when he resurrected. So, there is a new Temple of God in the New Testament age. Could Daniel's references here be to the new Temple of God in the New Testament age?

I cannot state anything definitive here on this 3rd question and associated comments. I just have questions and I keep them before the Lord asking for insight when and if the time is ever appropriate.

Lastly, there is a lot of understanding of End Times Prophecy that is a layer cake of assumptions. Base assumptions layered with additional assumptions then topped with some nice icing. As time has gone on, I've been breaking down the layers and finding that a decent percentage of the common understanding of End Times Prophecy is based on POTENTIALLY false assumptions. My questions about Daniel 9:27 give you a glimpse of a few of these assumptions.

Matt

Ohio

02-07-2023, 08:32 AM

Now switching to serious mode...

Take a look at Young's Literal Translation and then I have a few questions.

Daniel 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many—one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.’

Young, R. (1997). Young’s Literal Translation (Da 9:27)

1. Question #1 - most translations say "make a covenant", but the literal text is "strengthened a covenant". It could be a pre-existing agreement that is "strengthened", not made. Do you think it is "make a covenant" or "strengthened a covenant"?

2. Question #2 - Is it an interpretive jump to go from "a covenant with many" to a covenant with Israel? I think it is. Who are "the many"? I can't find evidence that it is solely Israel.

3. Question #3 - How do you reconcile "by the wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of a physical temple of God? What feature of the Temple of God can be thought of as a "wing of abominations". If you cannot resolve the "wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of the Temple of God then you have a interpretive problem here. There are many physical pictures in the Old Testament that resolve to spiritual realities in the New Testament Age. We know that Jesus made a temple not made with human hands when he resurrected. So, there is a new Temple of God in the New Testament age. Could Daniel's references here be to the new Temple of God in the New Testament age?

YLT can help at times, but language idioms get lost. Let me paraphrase Proverbs, "In a multitude of translations, there is wisdom." E.g. "causes present to cease," makes no sense. Sounds like the Grinch who stole Christmas. The "present" here are offerings in the Temple.

Q1. "Make a covenant, strengthen a covenant, confirm a covenant" all are the same, though I put less credibility on YLT than the other translations for the above reasoning. The impact of this covenant will be to enable Israel to safely rebuilt their Temple. Obviously no temple exists in Jerusalem presently, so one must be built. The "covenant" maker here must be one who has great power, i.e. the "Beast" of Revelation, the "Man of Sin" of 2 Thessalonians, the "He" of Daniel 9, or the un-named in Matthew 24.

Q2. The "many" is Israel, perhaps over the objections of some in Israel. Daniel chapters 8-12 are written in Hebrew to Israel, in contrast to Daniel 2.4 thru chap 7 which are written in Aramaic to the Babylonians. Daniel 9.27 describes the final 70th week "decreed for your people and your holy city." (9.24) The context here makes all the difference in understanding this verse. Verse 9.27 cannot be taken out of context.

The "middle of the seven" is crucial when compared with Revelation. Half a week of 7 years is 3 1/2 years, "42 months, a time and times and half a time, 1260 days" all of which are mentioned there. That something monumental happens in the "middle of this week" is mentioned often.

Jesus warned us that false Christs will come. Most in Israel will consider the Antichrist Beast to be their long-awaited Messiah, and will be completely deceived by him. In his first few years of ruling, he will appear as god on earth, and all will marvel. Some, however, will voice their objections and probably be banished as conspiracy theorists propagating foreign intelligence, or some such.

Q3. I interpret Daniel 9.27 "abomination and desolation" by Jesus in Matt 24.15 and Paul in 2 Ths 2.4. Jesus said you will "see" this event, and I suspect this will be well-publicized on all the 24 hr cable news stations. This spectacular event will follow the Beast's miraculous recovery from what is probably an assassination attempt. Perhaps he will die, and be brought back to life. Paul says, "he seats himself in the Temple, proclaiming himself as god."

Your reference to the church age "Temple" of God is interesting, and not without consideration based on 2 Ths 2. The Thessalonians asked Paul concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and he spoke of two distinct events which must precede His coming. The "apostasy" must come first, and the man of lawlessness must be revealed. This evil man will be revealed when he enters the Temple and "opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship."

The "apostasy" must also include the many in the church of God. In the only other NT mention of this word, it is used to condemn Paul he departed from his Jewish religion. (Acts 21.21) Ralph Earle Word Meanings says this means "to forsake, a defection or a revolt. The word implies that the opposition contemplated by Paul springs up from within and not from without." Reminds me of Paul's word "all in Asia have deserted me."

Trying times indeed. What sayeth you?

Zezima

02-07-2023, 08:49 AM

For the church of God, yes!
For the Israel of God, no!

Daniel, Matthew, and 2 Thessalonians all speak of the Prince, the Beast, the Man of Sin, aka the Antichrist desecrating the Temple, the abomination of desolation.

Apostle Paul clearly told the disciples that our Lord Jesus Christ cannot return unto this son of perdition firstly is revealed as he seats himself in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Ths 2.1-5)

Is the temple that Paul mentions in his letter to a Church a physical temple?

Ohio

02-07-2023, 09:29 AM

Is the temple that Paul mentions in his letter to a Church a physical temple?
Which verse? Which church?

Paul mentions the "temple" in numerous places. Context determines what he is referring to.

2 Thessalonians 2.4 is indeed a physical temple in Jerusalem

I Corinthians 6.19 says our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit

Ephesians 2.21 says the entire church is growing into a holy temple in the Lord

I Corinthians 8.10 indicates that the heathens have idol temples

Unregistered

02-07-2023, 09:44 AM

Witness Lee and his disciples sit in the “temple” (I.e church) today and claim to be gods, where does that put them in the big picture of your theology?

Nell

02-07-2023, 01:15 PM

Witness Lee and his disciples sit in the “temple” (I.e church) today and claim to be gods, where does that put them in the big picture of your theology?

Just plain old heretics.

Nell

Unregistered

02-07-2023, 08:42 PM

Zezima

02-08-2023, 02:28 AM

Which verse?

The verses you cited here:

Apostle Paul clearly told the disciples that our Lord Jesus Christ cannot return unto this son of perdition firstly is revealed as he seats himself in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Ths 2.1-5)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

Which church?

The Thessalonian church whom the letters were written to. You’re saying that when Paul references the Temple of God in a letter to Christians, he’s referring to a physical temple, is that a correct understanding of what you’re saying?

Ohio

02-08-2023, 05:49 AM

The verses you cited here:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

The Thessalonian church whom the letters were written to. You’re saying that when Paul references the Temple of God in a letter to Christians, he’s referring to a physical temple, is that a correct understanding of what you’re saying?
Yes, based on context, and confirmed by Daniel’s and Jesus’ prophecies.

I can see no reason otherwise to interpret this reference to the Temple in the above verse as anything other than a literal reading of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

Ohio

02-08-2023, 06:04 AM

Since the temple in the Old Testament (old covenant) signified two things:

1) God’s dwelling place on earth.
2) Separation between God and man, due to the veil and sacrificial system.

Since under the new covenant, God is no longer dwells on earth in temples, such as a man built buildings, and there is no longer the separation between God and man through the work of the cross and the resurrection, can you please tell me why would a new manmade temple needs to be built?

Thank you.

Currently, the nation of Israel is under the Old Covenant. Had they believed and received Jesus, then there would be no need for a physical Temple, as you said. But they have rejected their true Messiah, and are still waiting for Him. Presently all the materials for this new Temple are stored and ready for immediate construction. Their covenant with God and their Law requires a Temple to be built, and they have been waiting to rebuild their Temple since it was destroyed.

Zezima

02-08-2023, 09:58 AM

Yes, based on context, and confirmed by Daniel’s and Jesus’ prophecies.

I can see no reason otherwise to interpret this reference to the Temple in the above verse as anything other than a literal reading of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

Thank you for your response.

Unregistered

02-09-2023, 09:39 PM

Currently, the nation of Israel is under the Old Covenant. Had they believed and received Jesus, then there would be no need for a physical Temple, as you said. But they have rejected their true Messiah, and are still waiting for Him. Presently all the materials for this new Temple are stored and ready for immediate construction. Their covenant with God and their Law requires a Temple to be built, and they have been waiting to rebuild their Temple since it was destroyed.

Oh okay,
I must have been reading the wrong Bible my whole life, because as far I remember it’s says that the “old is abolished” or “no longer”.

So is the church is kind of a side kick to the “Israel”? Or better to say, is the church being held hostage because the Jews rejected Jesus? Do you also believe that ALL biological Jews dead or alive will be saved regardless of their belief in Christ while in this world? Had a member of the Recovery claim these things to me before. I don’t believe in 1000 years of “self improvement” ie Recovery purgatory, so where does that put biological Jews? Is there consequences for their unbelief just as there is consequences for all other nations or people for rejection of Jesus Christ?
Thanks

Nell

02-10-2023, 03:11 AM

Ohio

02-10-2023, 08:28 AM

Oh okay,
I must have been reading the wrong Bible my whole life, because as far I remember it’s says that the “old is abolished” or “no longer”.

So is the church is kind of a side kick to the “Israel”? Or better to say, is the church being held hostage because the Jews rejected Jesus? Do you also believe that ALL biological Jews dead or alive will be saved regardless of their belief in Christ while in this world? Had a member of the Recovery claim these things to me before. I don’t believe in 1000 years of “self improvement” ie Recovery purgatory, so where does that put biological Jews? Is there consequences for their unbelief just as there is consequences for all other nations or people for rejection of Jesus Christ?
Thanks
Yes, please do register for further discussion. As an added benefit, you do not have to receive endless annoying emails like those I get from everyone else who demands my email address. ;)

As a guiding principle in understanding the Bible, God's covenant to Abram/Abraham was to have children in number "like the sand of the sea and the stars of the heaven." (Genesis 22.17; Romans 9.27; 1st Corinthians 15.41) Thus Abraham's descendants are both heavenly and earthly. This point is often missed with younger Christians. The "sand" refers to the biological children of Israel. The "stars" refer to the gentile children of faith.

Perhaps other posters here could recommend some (non-LSM) reference books/reading material that could assist you on this topic. I just returned from an out of town family funeral and have another out of town family funeral next week to prepare for. UntoHim often recommends Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology. Perhaps he has addressed this topic.

Zezima

02-10-2023, 10:07 AM

Oh okay,
I must have been reading the wrong Bible my whole life, because as far I remember it’s says that the “old is abolished” or “no longer”.

No you haven’t been reading it wrong. However, it sounds like you are unaware that there are different frameworks for biblical interpretation, the two most common are Covenant Theology & Dispensational theology.

These two frameworks don’t effect the main tenets of the Christian faith, but they do have dramatically different views on Israel & the church, as well as eschatology beliefs.

This thread primarily discusses the end times through the framework of Dispensationalism. Which is why you’re experiencing some friction because you most likely have understood the Bible from the Covenant framework.

It’s okay to not share the same view on eschatology as someone else, there’s a ton of different beliefs around that subject. You just need to determine what you believe, and what your spirit confirms.

The main tenets of the Christian faith are universal, but the secondary theological beliefs are not. It’s not uncommon to find a Christian who thinks the modern day nation of Israel is the same Israel from the Bible or to find a Christian who thinks the Israel from the Bible is not the modern day nation of Israel.

Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology breaks down the different frameworks more, you could also start at the Wikipedia pages.

Ohio

02-10-2023, 10:17 AM

No you haven’t been reading it wrong. However, it sounds like you are unaware that there are different frameworks for biblical interpretation, the two most common are Covenant Theology & Dispensational theology.

These two frameworks don’t effect the main tenets of the Christian faith, but they do have dramatically different views on Israel & the church, as well as eschatology beliefs.

This thread primarily discusses the end times through the framework of Dispensationalism. Which is why you’re experiencing some friction because you most likely have understood the Bible from the Covenant framework.

It’s okay to not share the same view on eschatology as someone else, there’s a ton of different beliefs around that subject. You just need to determine what you believe, and what your spirit confirms.

The main tenets of the Christian faith are universal, but the secondary theological beliefs are not. It’s not uncommon to find a Christian who thinks the modern day nation of Israel is the same Israel from the Bible or to find a Christian who thinks the Israel from the Bible is not the modern day nation of Israel.

Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology breaks down the different frameworks more, you could also start at the Wikipedia pages.

Great post here. Just last night an old brother and I were discussing some of the extremes of Dispensational Theology, which we are more familiar with. Knowing diverse frameworks and comparing them with Scripture really helps us know the truth.

Unregistered

02-10-2023, 11:27 PM

No you haven’t been reading it wrong. However, it sounds like you are unaware that there are different frameworks for biblical interpretation, the two most common are Covenant Theology & Dispensational theology.

These two frameworks don’t effect the main tenets of the Christian faith, but they do have dramatically different views on Israel & the church, as well as eschatology beliefs.

This thread primarily discusses the end times through the framework of Dispensationalism. Which is why you’re experiencing some friction because you most likely have understood the Bible from the Covenant framework.

It’s okay to not share the same view on eschatology as someone else, there’s a ton of different beliefs around that subject. You just need to determine what you believe, and what your spirit confirms.

The main tenets of the Christian faith are universal, but the secondary theological beliefs are not. It’s not uncommon to find a Christian who thinks the modern day nation of Israel is the same Israel from the Bible or to find a Christian who thinks the Israel from the Bible is not the modern day nation of Israel.

Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology breaks down the different frameworks more, you could also start at the Wikipedia pages.

Thank you. I’m aware of the things that you mentioned to some extent. I guess I definitely don’t fall into hyper dispensational view like a lot of the members and people with the Recovery, or I guess any dispensational views to be clear. I should have read more posts at the beginning of this thread before I commented. Sorry

I definitely don’t fall into dispensationalism so I will refrain from comments any further. Thanks guys for even considering my questions.

********************************

Unregistered,
Sorry to see you go.
Admin/Moderator

Nell

02-11-2023, 10:47 AM

...
It’s okay to not share the same view on eschatology as someone else, there’s a ton of different beliefs around that subject. You just need to determine what you believe, and what your spirit confirms....

Another option is "if you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know."

We truly don't know such matters conclusively. Further, do we really need to determine what we believe regarding schools of thought, and such other doctrines? There are certain matters of the faith that are not negotiable. This discussion is not such. We're told to "watch and pray" and other good advice.

I have certain thoughts that I think may be headed in the right direction, but ultimately I have to say "I don't know for sure." Until the Lord tells me more, I think that's good enough. Keep asking Him questions.

Nell

Nell

02-14-2023, 08:03 AM

Clay Christensen:
“Some time ago I had a conversation with a Marxist economist from China. He was coming to the end of a Fulbright fellowship here in Boston. I asked him if he had learned anything that was surprising or unexpected.’

Without any hesitation he said “Yeah…I had no idea how critical religion is to the functioning of democracy. The reason why democracy works ,” he said, “is not because the government is designed to oversee what everybody does. Democracy works because most people, most of the time voluntarily choose to obey the law.

In your past, most Americans attended a church or synagogue every week and were taught there by people they respected.”

My friend went on to say that “Americans follow these rules because they had come to believe that they weren’t just accountable to society, but they were accountable to God.”

He stated that “As religion loses its influence over Americans, what will happen to democracy? Where are the institutions that are going to teach the next generation of Americans that they too must voluntarily choose to obey the laws? …Because if you take away religion, you can’t hire enough police.”

‘If you take away religion, you can’t hire enough police.’
John Adams once said that the U.S. Constitution “was made only for a moral and religious people.”
Clay Christensen Harvard Prof: Democracy Doesn’t Work Without Religion
A Rhodes Scholar and the Kim B. Clark Professor of Business Administration at Harvard
********************************

In this context, where does that leave us today?

Nell

Nell

02-14-2023, 08:15 AM

...In your past, most Americans attended a church or synagogue every week and were taught there by people they respected.”

My friend went on to say that “Americans follow these rules because they had come to believe that they weren’t just accountable to society, but they were accountable to God.” ...
********************************

In this context, where does that leave us today?

Nell

To respond to my own question, Americans were taught, not that they were accountable to their teachers, to "church" or to "religion", but that they are accountable to God.

Again, in THIS context, where does that leave us today?

Nell

Zezima

02-14-2023, 10:42 AM

In this context, where does that leave us today?

Nell

I think it’s important to be reminded of and hold onto the words that Witness Lee spoke about America.

The time is short; the end is close. If
you know world history and the trend of
history, you will realize that it is unlikely
God would prepare another country to
be a power in this world for Him to take
yet another step. I believe that America
is the last power God will use for His
final move.

Ohio

02-14-2023, 11:28 AM

The next “power” to be used will be the Beast of Revelation.

I just finished reading Canfield’s book, Lawlessness …. He is ex-LC, and has posted here before. He compared the American and French Revolutions of the late 18th century. The former had the goal of freedom, based on faith and the rule of law. The latter was an attempt to destroy all cultural norms, religion, laws, traditions, etc. — much like we are now seeing in the US.

The result was an evil destructive powerful ruler who nearly destroyed all of Europe. Napoleon Bonaparte.

Nell

02-14-2023, 01:01 PM

I think it’s important to be reminded of and hold onto the words that Witness Lee spoke about America.

The time is short; the end is close. If
you know world history and the trend of
history, you will realize that it is unlikely
God would prepare another country to
be a power in this world for Him to take
yet another step. I believe that America
is the last power God will use for His
final move.

This WL quote became stagnant at his death in 1998. World events didn't stop at Lee's death, so I don't think he covered all the bases.

This quote also presumes that God needs another world power to take another step. It presumes that God's "final move" is not already underway. I believe America is under God's judgement now, and has been since perhaps September 11, 2001, if not January, 1973 when Roe v. Wade began the legalized mass murder of children.

The evidence of what Clay Christensen discussed with his Marxist friend from China is the apostasy of the American people including, to an extent, the American church. A Chinese Marxist can see it clearly, but the American people cannot.

Possibly January, 1973 was a tipping point. Since the U.S. Constitution is chartered "Of the people, by the people and for the people", legalized mass murder of children, as of today a staggering 63 million plus, children, the American people have heaped judgment upon themselves since 1973. The American church didn't object much. Why? A strong delusion?

Whatever the American people allows the government to enact, which is against God's nature, God's will, and God's plan, this is on the American people who allowed it. This can only provoke Him and His judgment. Judgment begins at the House of God.

Do you think that the current earthquakes (Turkey), volcano eruptions (Hawaii), pandemic (worldwide), famine (worldwide), violent weather patterns (US tornadic activity)...do you think this coincidence? It's true there have always been such things, but it doesn't seem to be on a global scale as it is now. What about that de-railed train in Ohio? What about those "signs in the sky"? What's going on? I don't know.

Now is not the time to look to the Federal Government for relief, protection and sound judgment. It really troubles me to see the America I love going down this path, but I cannot "not see" the hand of God. and His judgment unfolding like a scroll.

“As religion loses its influence over Americans, what will happen to democracy? Where are the institutions that are going to teach the next generation of Americans that they too must voluntarily choose to obey the laws?"

Is there any question that "religion" (God) has lost its influence over many, if not most, Americans? Is there any question that democracy is devolving into socialism, where God is given no place or space in the lives of many Americans today?

So...I keep thinking...what am I supposed to do? Apart from repenting for things in my life that shouldn't be there, praying for light, praying for God wake-up His people...what am I supposed to do? Apart from what I'm doing now (moderating a Christian forum), what am I supposed to do?

Truthfully, I won't know until He tells me, and I keep asking every day when something new pops up. For now, all I know to do is to keep telling the truth of what I see and hear from him, in fellowship with others. That includes, paying attention to what's going on. Watch. Pray. Look up!

Until then, I just live my life as a baseball fan(season tickets), a Dallas Cowboys fan, a photography fan (3 cameras) , etc. I have 3 sewing machines that do different things, 5 different OS laptop computers (retired network engineer), a ham radio...my motto is "have toys, will play". I think you get the idea. I'm not a prophecy nut (I don't think). I just want to be available to the Lord for whatever he has for me. Oh, and I do a little prepping. Worst case, I may have a nice donation for local food bank someday...so why not?

Hopefully, you will be willing to think differently from what you've always thought about these things.

Nell

Nell

02-15-2023, 09:26 PM

Here’s a WLee quote from his Life Study of Revelation covering Rev. 9. It’s interesting to me because, though dated, he links the end times to China. Today China and the US are … whatever they are. His comments though don’t really imply an adversarial relationship, between “us and them” as clearly exists today.

II. TWO HUNDRED MILLION CAVALRY TROOPS
Verse 16 says, “And the number of the cavalry troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.” In order to kill the third part of men, the four angels will use two hundred million cavalry troops. The number of these horsemen is nearly that of the total population of the United States. The two hundred million horsemen will come from the rising of the sun (16:12), that is, from the east. The place on earth that produces the most horses is Mongolia. The Western world has invented so many modern methods of transportation, but these cavalry from the east will not use them. Instead, they will use horses. …

….I have been saved for more than fifty years. During the years since 1918 I have spent much time observing the world situation and studying the prophecies in the Bible. I can testify that no time has been closer to the fulfillment of the New Testament prophecy than today. Today’s world news is focused on the Middle East. Much of the daily news concerning the Middle East matches what is spoken in the Bible. This means that the Lord is keeping His word and that prophecies are now being fulfilled. Undoubtedly, we are very close to the time of the sixth seal, the main aspect of which is the great earthquake.

So, of course, we are closer now than then, and as of today, China seems to be a bigger player than the Middle East. Then there’s the massive earthquake in Turkey. There are no conclusions, other than “we’re closer today” and IMHO, something is going on. I can’t imagine the 200M horsemen…

Nell

Zezima

02-26-2023, 08:41 AM

Nell, Do you think humans can dictate when God comes back or delay his coming, like we were taught in the Recovery?

Nell

02-26-2023, 12:41 PM

Nell, Do you think humans can dictate when God comes back or delay his coming, like we were taught in the Recovery?

No.

I don't think the second coming has anything to do with what was taught in the non-Recovery. What I remember is that "bring the Lord back" was used almost like a tag line for a lot of other teachings..."if" we do this, "then" we will "bring the Lord back." It was also used somewhat to manipulate the behavior of the membership.

I don't think you mean "dictate" literally, regardless, I don't think anyone "dictates" to God. I further don't think Lee's teachings are authoritative and God is not bound by them.

2 Peter 3 gives us some direction, but nothing that correlates to Witness Lee's teachings. To me v. 14 maybe gives us the best advice: "be at peace with God". Then, v. 17 "don't get carried away with error."

If Lee's teachings motivate his followers to "be at peace with God" and to "don't get carried away with error..." That's one thing, but I don't think that's what's happening. It's like that "tag line" is being held over our/their heads.

2 Peter 3 does specify "the day of the Lord", not limited exclusively to his coming. A lot will be happening related to his return and God's final judgment.

The Day of the Lord 2 Peter 3
...
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? ...

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

What do you think?
Nell

Zezima

03-01-2023, 09:13 PM

Not sure, something I’ve been considering. Verse 12 from Peter that you posted suggests it, at the same time it seems odd that if we do something then God will come.

Thanks for your response

Nell

03-02-2023, 05:19 AM

Not sure, something I’ve been considering. Verse 12 from Peter that you posted suggests it, at the same time it seems odd that if we do something then God will come.

Thanks for your response

I noticed that too; speed its coming. My thought is that in that verse, perhaps it's implied that maybe:
* living a holy and godly life speeds his coming
* looking forward to the day of God...speeds its coming.

However, it's possible that "looking forward" doesn't mean the same thing now as it did then. Today, the common meaning of "look forward" is anticipation of some happy, pleasant, desirable event (looking forward to the birth of a child, looking forward to baseball season (!), to spring, etc.)

Looking forward in 2 Peter 3, could be more literal. Looking forward simply because whatever is to come is "up next". Looking forward to what's going on literally in the heavens and on the earth.

Another question is the "day of God". The 2nd coming and the day of God aren't the same thing, are they? The day of God, in context of 2Peter3 describes the final judgment of the earth.

Nell

Revelation 16:13-15
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Nell

03-19-2023, 08:47 AM

I know what "woke" means, though I've never found a precise definition--it seemingly changes every day...it keeps getting worse. It's one of those "I know it when I see it" things. I watched a video yesterday that came as a surprise to me..."woke" had been described and prophecied by Isaiah from the actions of those who practiced it a long time ago. So "woke" is nothing new.

The KJV translates "how terrible it will be" as "Woe unto them".

NIV: Isaiah 5:18 How terrible it will be for those who continue to sin and lie about it! How terrible for those who keep on doing what is evil as if they were tied to it! (Perhaps they ARE "tied to it"...demonically.)
19 How terrible for those who say, “Let God hurry up and do what he says he will. We want to see it happen. Let us see the plan of the Holy One of Israel. We want to know what it is.” (Mocking God to His face.)
20 How terrible it will be for those who say that what is evil is good! How terrible for those who say that what is good is evil! How terrible for those who say that darkness is light and light is darkness! How terrible for those who say that what is bitter is sweet and what is sweet is bitter!
21 How terrible it will be for those who think they are wise! How terrible for those who think they are really clever!
22 How terrible it will be for those who are heroes at drinking wine! How terrible for those who are heroes at mixing drinks!
23 How terrible for those who take money to set guilty people free! How terrible for those who don’t treat good people fairly!
24 Flames of fire burn up straw. Dry grass sinks down into those flames.
Evil people will be like plants whose roots rot away. They will be like flowers that are blown away like dust. That’s because they have said no to the law of the Lord who rules over all. They have turned against the message of the Holy One of Israel.
25 So the Lord is angry with his people. He raises his hand against them and strikes them down. The mountains shake. The bodies of dead people lie in the streets like trash. Even then, the Lord is still angry. His hand is still raised against them.

Since I watch/listen/read the news, I could make a list, giving examples that match the verses above and naming names of the actors. I just didn't realize that Isaiah had prophecied the events of the world today a long time ago...right down to the mountains shaking.

I have a new perspective on "woke". What do you think?

Nell

Nell

04-11-2023, 08:56 AM

CASHLESS SOCIETY?
Are we on the verge of a cashless society? How cool! Uh-oh...did the Bible prophecy a cashless society 2,000 years ago?

Revelation 13:16-18:
"He (the false prophet; Rev. 19:20) causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666."

Could this refer to the current move toward a cashless society? If cash was still in use, would the “mark” be necessary? It doesn’t seem so. From time to time, I attend Major League Baseball games. The venue I attend is cashless. Totally. If I want to make a purchase I do so through my "smart phone" which connects with my “account” which contains my credit card information. If my phone cannot make a connection to…whatever…I can't park, or attend the game, even though I purchased a ticket. I can't buy food. No paper tickets and no cash.

I'm sure you likely have your own examples of cashless venues? Imagine what life would be like if your cash was “no good”…anywhere. Could this situation be considered parallel to Revelation 13:17 ... that we cannot buy or sell unless we … have a smart phone?

SPIRITUAL OR PHYSICAL?
Is the “mark of the beast” totally a spiritual scripture reference? We see two physical locations stating the mark will be one place or the other: a hand or forehead which is not spiritual…is it?

ANIMALS WITH RFID MICROCHIPS:
Animals have been successfully tracked with implanted microchips for a long time. What about humans? Many today cannot consider "life as we know it" without constant possession and usage of their smart phones...especially children and young people. The rationale of implanting animals became a major necessity as well as a convenience. Is the next step to implant people with a microchip which contains features of the smart phone..., i.e., the "smart wallet"?

What do you think? Is there a case here?
More later...
Nell
________
Another thought...in a cashless society, what if the Internet becomes compromised to the extent that digital/electronic communication is impossible. Wow...what if digital communication, i.e., the grid, were compromised today (4/11/23)?

Ohio

04-12-2023, 09:36 PM

This is already happening in Sweden. (https://www.npr.org/2018/10/22/658808705/thousands-of-swedes-are-inserting-microchips-under-their-skin)

Initially, like the vaccine, many will take the chip voluntarily, believing in all the many promised “benefits.” Eventually it will be forced on the rest of us. The Covid Vax was definitely not the “charagma mark,” but the trial run for something far more sinister to come. The good thing is that the Bible indicates that the ultimate decision to accept the charagma of the Beast will be ours to make. Before the actual return of Jesus Christ, it seems that all mankind will have some mark of ownership, either of God or of the Beast.

Recently, I was considering the pending apostasy prophesied in 2 Thess 2. A study of this word indicates that this apostasy will not be a rebellion from without, but rather a forsaking of the faith by many within the church. Could it be that the decision to accept the chip, under great economic and political pressure and societal coercion, causes many to abandon their faith? As with all disobedience (remember how Moses forsook the temporary enjoyment of sin in Hebrews 11), there are always short term benefits, but long term loss.

countmeworthy

04-13-2023, 12:22 PM

Ohio

04-13-2023, 01:32 PM

Sort of derailing here. Sort of…. You know what I the unforgivable sin, the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is?

Tic toc tic toc….

The mark of the beast. No one can ever repent from taking it. I have heard the person who takes it becomes a hybrid. Whether or not that’s true, scripture is clear, you are doomed if you take the mark.

I’m not so sure. I tend not to look at things homogeneously, believing “with every trial God will make a way out.” I think some will naively take the mark, regret it with great remorse, and then somehow remove it. Perhaps even obedience to Jesus’ command, “If your right hand makes you sin, cut it off, and throw it away.” Revelation 14.9 does say “to get the mark AND worship the beast,” as if both are required.

During the vax mandates, I told lots of people that it sounds like what will happen when the Antichrist makes everyone get the mark of the Beast. Few agreed, most listened, some thought I was crazy, but most thought there was no connection. Gen Z-ers today think cash is stupid and inconvenient. The “mark” will be marketed as safe, convenient, free, and even trendy. What’s not to like?

countmeworthy

04-13-2023, 05:12 PM

I’m not so sure. I tend not to look at things homogeneously, believing “with every trial God will make a way out.” I think some will naively take the mark, regret it with great remorse, and then somehow remove it. Perhaps even obedience to Jesus’ command, “If your right hand makes you sin, cut it off, and throw it away.” Revelation 14.9 does say “to get the mark AND worship the beast,” as if both are required.

During the vax mandates, I told lots of people that it sounds like what will happen when the Antichrist makes everyone get the mark of the Beast. Few agreed, most listened, some thought I was crazy, but most thought there was no connection. Gen Z-ers today think cash is stupid and inconvenient. The “mark” will be marketed as safe, convenient, free, and even trendy. What’s not to like?

No one really knows what the mark will be. But I do think that people will easily accept the mandate. Vaccine mandates have made it easy for people to accept everything and anything the government tells us to do.

One thing is certain. Stay faithful to the Lord, to the Holy Spirit’s leading, Our God will protect us and keep us safe. I believe it because our God has kept me safe time and time again.

May we all experience God’s Love, Goodness and Mercy that follows us all the days of our lives.

Nell

04-13-2023, 08:53 PM

Zezima

04-13-2023, 09:13 PM

SPIRITUAL OR PHYSICAL?
Is the “mark of the beast” totally a spiritual scripture reference? We see two physical locations stating the mark will be one place or the other: a hand or forehead which is not spiritual…is it?

What is the beast?

Ohio

04-13-2023, 09:36 PM

No one really knows what the mark will be. But I do think that people will easily accept the mandate. Vaccine mandates have made it easy for people to accept everything and anything the government tells us to do.

One thing is certain. Stay faithful to the Lord, to the Holy Spirit’s leading, Our God will protect us and keep us safe. I believe it because our God has kept me safe time and time again.

May we all experience God’s Love, Goodness and Mercy that follows us all the days of our lives.

Yes indeed, and the Lord has miraculously cared for me too, but there’s no guarantee of safety during the tribulation, otherwise the book of Revelation would not speak of “loving not your life even unto death.”

I know way too many Christians believe rapture and a great revival is coming. The NT, however, never speaks of this revival, rather Paul warned the Thessalonians that Apostasy is coming. Why would Christians forsake the faith if we all will be so well cared for? Why would Jesus warn us of being deceived by false teachers and false prophets.

We are now living in a time of great deception. The Bible says that God Himself will send a strong delusion to those who refuse to love the truth. 2 Ts 2.11

Ohio

04-13-2023, 09:38 PM

What is the beast?
Revelation chapter 13 is good place to start reading.

countmeworthy

04-14-2023, 11:27 AM

What is the beast?

I think it’s a system of control under the authority of the powers that be, the elitists of the world, the Illuminati, the religious institutions especially the Jesuits. All super powerful entities.

*** BEAST OF THE SEA = political system by which the AC will come out from (Revelation 13:1-10)

*** BEAST OF THE EARTH = religious system from where the false prophet comes out from. This beast performs great signs and wonders and miracles (Revelation 13:11-18). This beast issues the mark of the beast. And points people to worship Beast of the sea

Just my thoughts

Nell

04-14-2023, 09:06 PM

What is the beast?

Z,

What about you? What, or who, is the beast?

Nell

Zezima

04-18-2023, 07:12 AM

Z,

What about you? What, or who, is the beast?

Nell

My interpretation is vastly different but I was asking to understand what it means to others who don’t hold the same view. Anyways, my understanding is the beasts in revelation are satan & the state. The beasts in revelation mimic God and try to be God.

Ohio

04-18-2023, 11:27 AM

My interpretation is vastly different but I was asking to understand what it means to others who don’t hold the same view. Anyways, my understanding is the beasts in revelation are satan & the state. The beasts in revelation mimic God and try to be God.
I think there is overwhelming evidence that the Beast is a man, not just one who is against Christ, but one who will claim to be Christ Himself, the long awaited Messiah of Israel. Of course, the Beast will mimic the Lord and try to be God, probably using AI to his full advantage.

For example, both claim to be Messiah of Israel, God Himself in the flesh. Both serve 3.5 years, performing signs and wonders, speaking wisdom and truth. Both die, and then "rise" from the dead. (The beast will rise like Lazarus, only to be tossed into the lake of fire when the Son of Man does appear.)

Initially, at least for the first half of Daniel's 70th week, the Beast will be everything that Jesus Christ was "supposed to be" - powerful leader bringing peace and security to the world. Most of the world will believe that Jesus Christ was a failure, and now we have the "real" Christ. They will all marvel at him, saying "who is like the beast?" Unlike Jesus, who only appeared in Israel, this Beast will appear to the entire world.

countmeworthy

04-19-2023, 09:42 AM

I think there is overwhelming evidence that the Beast is a man, not just one who is against Christ, but one who will claim to be Christ Himself, the long awaited Messiah of Israel. Of course, the Beast will mimic the Lord and try to be God, probably using AI to his full advantage.

For example, both claim to be Messiah of Israel, God Himself in the flesh. Both serve 3.5 years, performing signs and wonders, speaking wisdom and truth. Both die, and then "rise" from the dead. (The beast will rise like Lazarus, only to be tossed into the lake of fire when the Son of Man does appear.)

Initially, at least for the first half of Daniel's 70th week, the Beast will be everything that Jesus Christ was "supposed to be" - powerful leader bringing peace and security to the world. Most of the world will believe that Jesus Christ was a failure, and now we have the "real" Christ. They will all marvel at him, saying "who is like the beast?" Unlike Jesus, who only appeared in Israel, this Beast will appear to the entire world.

Clear and very good explanation Ohio !

Raptor

04-19-2023, 10:53 AM

For example, both claim to be Messiah of Israel, God Himself in the flesh.

Are there any verses that indicate the AC will claim to be the Messiah? And do you think the Jews in general will belive him?

Ohio

04-19-2023, 12:41 PM

Are there any verses that indicate the AC will claim to be the Messiah? And do you think the Jews in general will believe him?
Matt 24.3-5: "As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many."

Matt 24.23: "At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. <sup class="versenum"> </sup>For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

Obviously Israel, especially as the end of the age approaches, will be looking for their long-promised Messiah. Actually the Bible never refers to this person as "THE Antichrist," rather by various other descriptors.

Daniel 9.27 refers to him as the Prince. "He [the Prince of the restored Roman empire, the forth of the Beasts in Daniel] will make a treaty with the many [referring to most of those in Israel, but not all] for one week [referring to a 7 year period of time.] In the middle of the week [referring to 3.5 years after the covenant was made] he [referring to the Prince] will put an end to sacrifice and offering. [these are Levitical animal sacrifices] And at the temple [I]he [the Prince, "who was not, and now is" according to Revelation 17.8] will set up an abomination that causes desolation, [referred to by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24.15] until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” [according to Rev 19.19-20]

Ohio

04-19-2023, 01:03 PM

When we typically speak of “The End Times, ” we speak of major events prophesied in scripture. Many of these center on Israel. Just read thru the whole Bible, and see if you agree with me.

For approximately 1900 years, the status of the nation of Israel was “deceased.” Many, many had predicted the end of the world before that, yet there will be no end until certain realities about Israel happened. For example, 2 Thess 2, Matt 24, and Daniel 9 all correspond and point to “someone” exalting himself in the temple of God, and desecrating it. Jesus Himself mentions this major event will occur in the future, so it could not have happened already. Neither did Vespasian nor his son Titus fit the description.

How could this happen without the nation of Israel (1948), and without the city of Jerusalem (1967) recognized as their capital (2018)? Yet these events, against all odds, have already occurred!

And how can this happen without their Temple rebuilt with the Ark of the Covenant?
Recently I came across an old friend who now believes that the prophecies in Revelation, in their entirety, occurred already in the 1st Century. This is called Preterism or Preterist Theology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism). There are also some modified Preterist viewpoints.

Even the great church historian Philip Schaff espoused this view. Beginning in the 17th century, when Israel was uninhabitable desert, preterism seemed to be a reasonable explanation for all the prophecies in the NT. As such, all these major end-time events occurred before the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

Since we now see Israel and Jerusalem come back to life, and so many other Biblical prophecies on the verge of fulfillment, it's difficult to explain how anyone could seriously embrace this view any more.

Zezima

04-19-2023, 03:19 PM

I think there is overwhelming evidence that the Beast is a man.

I’m not ruling this view out, but when was the last time you saw a man “two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon”?

Ohio

04-19-2023, 07:09 PM

I’m not ruling this view out, but when was the last time you saw a man “two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon”?
Do you want me to name names? These words in Revelation 13 are metaphorical, but not hyperbolic. Do you ever watch the news? Things are only getting worse. People love lies and hate the truth. Eventually this world will provide an eager audience when these 2 Beasts appear on the scene.

Zezima

04-24-2023, 07:00 AM

These words in Revelation 13 are metaphorical, but not hyperbolic..

As you read prophecy such as revelation 13, how do you determine what is metaphorical and what isn’t?

Nell

04-24-2023, 07:45 AM

As you read prophecy such as revelation 13, how do you determine what is metaphorical and what isn’t?

Here is an excellent example of the author, Carol Yoakum, who did extensive study of world history in parallel with Daniel 7 in her paper on Prophecy Fulfilled, written in 2017. Carol has answered the question "metaphor for what?" by highlighting the metaphorical nature of prophecy with parallels of literal, factual, fulfillment of the prophecy.

Ohio may have further answer to your question.

Daniel 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

This prophecy matches Germany in every detail. Nazi Germany was a lion, the most deadly enemy in Jewish history. It killed six million. The lion with eagle's wings is a picture of the German blitzkriegs, which had the speed of an eagle with the power of a lion.

The wings must also represent Germany's eastern and western fronts. The Soviet Union plucked off the eastern wing, and the western Allies plucked off the western wing. Then it was made to stand on two feet like a man. Germany made a remarkable economic recovery after the war. The whole country was rebuilt, and it now has the strongest economy in Europe. And it was given a man's heart. After the war the people turned away from Nazism. The Berlin airlift in 1948 helped to turn their hearts toward their former enemies. The "candy bombers" won over the children. Germany has been a U.S. ally ever since.

Adolf Hitler was a forerunner of the antichrist. He was the lion's mouth, persuading the masses. He believed the Jews were conspiring to take over the world, and the Holocaust was his attempt to remove them in order to make way for a German thousand-year reich. Like the antichrist, he had no respect for treaties (Daniel 9:27). They were just pieces of paper to use deceitfully to accomplish his purpose.

Like the antichrist, he (Hitler) had a false prophet. Joseph Goebbels, his Minister of Propaganda, caused the people to worship Hitler. As the antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire together, so also Hitler and Goebbels were together in the Berlin bunker and died just one day apart.

A brief mention of Revelation 13:1
Daniel's prophecy in Revelation
Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Revelation 13:1
The fourth beast of Daniel chapter 7 appears in Revelation, but the first three beasts are notably absent. These three were not ancient empires ... . Nor will they come at the very end of the age, for their stories are not told in the book of Revelation. Their stories are written in modern history.

Hope this helps.
Nell

Zezima

04-24-2023, 09:34 AM

Here is an excellent example of the author, Carol Yoakum, who did extensive study of world history in parallel with Daniel 7 in her paper on Prophecy Fulfilled, written in 2017. Carol has answered the question "metaphor for what?" by highlighting the metaphorical nature of prophecy with parallels of literal, factual, fulfillment of the prophecy.

Ohio may have further answer to your question.

A brief mention of Revelation 13:1

Hope this helps.
Nell

Very interesting, thanks for sharing this.

To clarify, I’m seeking to understand how to determine if something is metaphorical or not. If the beasts are metaphorical, why isn’t the mark? Genuinely asking how you determine what is metaphorical and what isn’t.

Nell

04-24-2023, 11:46 AM

Very interesting, thanks for sharing this.

To clarify, I’m seeking to understand how to determine if something is metaphorical or not. If the beasts are metaphorical, why isn’t the mark? Genuinely asking how you determine what is metaphorical and what isn’t.

The words/prophecies of the Bible are spiritually discerned. If there is a "how to" answer, I don't know what it is. I know I wouldn't dismiss, out of hand, what might be a precursor to something prophecied. Also, I know for sure, we should be reading the news today with spiritual eyes.

Before I started this topic, I began reading various passages of scripture that I thought might fit what I wanted to know. I had been bothering the Lord to help me. I kept telling Him I didn't understand. I had been looking at current events in the news and researching what others were saying about what's going on. I was trying to overlay prophecies in my mind from the Revelation, Daniel, and other prophets to fit all the pieces together.

When I started reading Carol's paper, I was amazed. After so much digging, this brought things together for me. I learned something from her, and from the Lord. She put prophecy and history together in a simple way.

Unconsciously, I guess I personally approach most scriptural prophetic images as metaphors...then set about scouring history, current events and future events that would potentially confirm or deny the metaphor as prophetic words.

A couple of examples, the prophecy of coming earthquakes and signs in the heavens. There has been a significant uptick in earthquakes in the last few years. Could this be a precursor of what is coming? Here's a new one that popped up for me on April 8...a couple of weeks ago.... On April 8, 2024 there will be a total solar eclipse, visible in Mexico, the US, and Canada...North America. Looking at the projected path, the best visibility will include my house in North Texas!

Are these two "events" prophetic fulfillments? No. But...the propecy IS there, and these events are probably/possibly a precursor of what is to come. One day the metaphor for the prophetic signs will be manifest.

I hope this helps.
Nell

Ohio

04-24-2023, 12:57 PM

As you read prophecy such as revelation 13, how do you determine what is metaphorical and what isn’t?
For example, Revelation and Daniel both speak of a number of “beasts.” Some commentators say these are empires, and some say they are certain individuals. They both have their points, and their views. I try to discern which is more faithful to the scripture, and in many cases both are correct. In other words, the “beasts” refer to both the leader and his empire, often determined by the context.

When reading these books, we need to be like detectives. We must gather the verses and study. Often, I come up with a “hunch,” an understanding of the facts, much like a detective gathers known evidence and tries to solve a “crime,” developing a theory of what has happened. Perhaps the “hunch” comes from pieces of others’ writings. Then I go back and try to fit all the verses into my interpretation of events. If that fails, try another. Does this make sense?

In this way, we are handling the scripture like a “craftsman,” rightly dividing the word of God. I learned this method years ago from Dr. Philip Comfort, and it has always served me well.

OBW

04-25-2023, 10:27 AM

And some say that the beasts are shrubberies. ("Bring me a shrubbery! One that looks nice. And not too expensive.")

The question that I ask is whether thinking one version of what a beast is v another version has any significance to my living today? Might the important thing be to understand that things get more difficult? (They always will.) And that we should be ready to live as we have been charged no matter what we face?

I know. :deadhorse:

Nell

04-30-2023, 06:29 AM

...
The question that I ask is whether thinking one version of what a beast is v another version has any significance to my living today? Might the important thing be to understand that things get more difficult? (They always will.) And that we should be ready to live as we have been charged no matter what we face?

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Significance to your living today aside, hearing the words of prophecy is hardly a dead horse, since we are charged to read and hear the words and keep these words ...why? "...for the time is at hand". If you listen to the news today, why not listen to the words of the prophets? Their message seems to be a “heads up"!

Nell

Ohio

04-30-2023, 11:15 PM

OBW

05-02-2023, 02:52 PM

"...for the time is at hand".And it has been for 2,000 years.

But are we to read it as a challenge to understand, connecting dots like strands of DNA, then debating what the imagery literally means? Don't the plethora of writings on the details evidence enough that getting it right is not the point? Each has a different take on it.

But is finding a roadmap through the end times the point?

Or is it the reminder that it will touch us all in some way whether we are alive at that time, or have "fallen asleep" long before? A graphic reminder to never assume tomorrow?

Nell

05-02-2023, 05:39 PM

And it has been for 2,000 years.

But are we to read it as a challenge to understand, connecting dots like strands of DNA, then debating what the imagery literally means? Don't the plethora of writings on the details evidence enough that getting it right is not the point? Each has a different take on it.

But is finding a roadmap through the end times the point?

Or is it the reminder that it will touch us all in some way whether we are alive at that time, or have "fallen asleep" long before? A graphic reminder to never assume tomorrow?

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

This is a really simple verse. No need to overthink it, or become skeptical about His timeline. How ‘bout we just read, hear and keep, like the verses say? There is the blessing.

Meanwhile, ask him if he has something in mind for you to do. Do what he tells you. If he doesn’t have anything for you to do, live the life he has for you as best you know how. After all, it’s about Him. We don’t have to figure it out. But, we are charged with a task that comes with a blessing. I guess that’s ‘kinda what he does.

You don’t have to read the words of prophecy. Your call. Some of us are curious (me for one). Some are afraid and call these discussions “fear mongering” (not me). Regardless, this is a place for discussions, so that’s what we do, freely.

Nell

OBW

05-02-2023, 09:31 PM

This is a really simple verse. No need to overthink it, or become skeptical about His timeline. How ‘bout we just read, hear and keep, like the verses say? There is the blessing.That seems to run contrary to all the discussion about who anyone thinks the beast is. Or talk about Illuminati. Or talk about uncertianties and assigning weights of probability to them. (Just a few examples from scanning quickly back through the thread and stopping randomly three or four times. I didn't need to cull out posts that didn't seem to be digging into solutions rather than "just reading."

I agree that just reading it is a good thing. And I never said otherwise.

And I was never skeptical about His timeline. Just our version of it.

Ohio

05-03-2023, 04:25 AM

You don’t have to read the words of prophecy. Your call. Some of us are curious (me for one). Some are afraid and call these discussions “fear mongering” (not me). Regardless, this is a place for discussions, so that’s what we do, freely.

Nell
“You may be right, he may be crazy.” :p

Nell

05-03-2023, 09:11 PM

That seems to run contrary to all the discussion about who anyone thinks the beast is. Or talk about Illuminati. Or talk about uncertianties and assigning weights of probability to them. (Just a few examples from scanning quickly back through the thread and stopping randomly three or four times. I didn't need to cull out posts that didn't seem to be digging into solutions rather than "just reading."

I agree that just reading it is a good thing. And I never said otherwise.

And I was never skeptical about His timeline. Just our version of it.

Duly noted.

Nell

Nell

06-28-2023, 09:08 AM

This week I found a movie on Fubo: Before the Wrath It's available other places. I've transcribed part of the opening comments below: (emphasis added)

It’s been 2000 years since the final prophecies were recorded, and today the foundation for the convergence of nearly every prophetic sign foretold and the remaining Biblical prophecies have never been more prominent. As a result, a recent rise in debate regarding the signs of the times has led to growing division regarding when the Messiah will return. After all, if the events prophesied within the ancient records are indeed to come to pass, then knowing the timing of the Lord’s return would be of great importance.

The timing is a real hot-button, especially among religious people, Christians and what the like. We love predictability. We want to know when He’s going to be coming back.

The conflict, the disagreement, the contention over the timing of the rapture, and particularly in the last ten years, has gone off the charts.

Instead of saying “my how they love one another” as they said of the early church, now today they say of the church, “my how they fight with one another”.

Recent findings from organizations, such as Lifeway Research, confirm that the infighting among Christians is deepening.

In one of our surveys we asked when they thought the rapture might occur:
36% (the largest group) though it might occur “pre-tribulation”.
4% believe it will happen in the middle (of the tribulation)
18% believe the rapture will happen at the end of the tribulation.
13% believe in “other views”, and
4% are “not sure”.
25% the remaining, a growing statistic, no longer believe in a literal rapture at all.

Why is this happening?

There is a sobering discussion around the 25%, in the church, who no longer believe in a literal rapture. At least I understood that the 25% were in the church. I could be wrong.

I really like this movie. It's well done and contains an interesting and different point of view. I couldn't find any deviation to scriptural truth. I'm watching it again...just in case!

Most of the movie covers (spoiler alert) a wedding in Galilee (not Canaan). I hope you find it somewhere and take a look.

Before the Wrath (https://secure.ingenuityfilms.com/btw/order_dvd.cfm)

Nell

Ohio

06-29-2023, 10:38 AM

This week I found a movie on Fubo: Before the Wrath It's available other places. I've transcribed part of the opening comments below: (emphasis added)

There is a sobering discussion around the 25%, in the church, who no longer believe in a literal rapture. At least I understood that the 25% were in the church. I could be wrong.

I really like this movie. It's well done and contains an interesting and different point of view. I couldn't find any deviation to scriptural truth. I'm watching it again...just in case!

Most of the movie covers (spoiler alert) a wedding in Galilee (not Canaan). I hope you find it somewhere and take a look.

Before the Wrath (https://secure.ingenuityfilms.com/btw/order_dvd.cfm)

Nell
Nell, I would love to discuss this topic further, but it might engender further conflicts on the forum. On my part, I will only post out of love and concern for the children of God.

For example, recently we joined a church with other family members, long-standing in their church. The Bible Study before Worship moved onto the Rapture and His 2nd Advent. Just asking questions about their Pre-Trib demands got us into trouble. Prior to this Bible Study, I had really not studied this topic since the mid-70's.

That recent study by Christianity Today was introduced, "1/3 of today's Pastors (36%) believe in Pre-Trib Rapture!" So I asked, "what about the other 2/3?" Later on I heard, "Don't worry! Nothing in Revelation applies to us, since we will all be gone!" So I asked, "what about the numerous martyrs in Revelation and v. 22.16?" The final words were mocking, "if you want to stick around for God's judgment, then have at it!" Privately I asked, "if I'm wrong, then no harm done, but if you're wrong, then so many will be ill-prepared for what may come." He answered, "that's a risk I'm willing to take."

They rejected further personal discussions, and basically applied Romans 16.17.

I'll try to find the movie. Thanks.

Nell

06-29-2023, 01:19 PM

Nell, I would love to discuss this topic further, but it might engender further conflicts on the forum. On my part, I will only post out of love and concern for the children of God.

For example, recently we joined a church with other family members, long-standing in their church. The Bible Study before Worship moved onto the Rapture and His 2nd Advent. Just asking questions about their Pre-Trib demands got us into trouble. Prior to this Bible Study, I had really not studied this topic since the mid-70's.

That recent study by Christianity Today was introduced, "1/3 of today's Pastors (36%) believe in Pre-Trib Rapture!" So I asked, "what about the other 2/3?" Later on I heard, "Don't worry! Nothing in Revelation applies to us, since we will all be gone!" So I asked, "what about the numerous martyrs in Revelation and v. 22.16?" The final words were mocking, "if you want to stick around for God's judgment, then have at it!" Privately I asked, "if I'm wrong, then no harm done, but if you're wrong, then so many will be ill-prepared for what may come." He answered, "that's a risk I'm willing to take."

They rejected further personal discussions, and basically applied Romans 16.17.

I'll try to find the movie. Thanks.

Thanks Ohio. Posting with love and concern for the bretheren is all we ask of our poster children on the forum. Feel free to discuss.

I hope you can find "Before the Wrath". It's different from any movie I've seen on the end times--it's much more than that. It tells a beautiful story set in the culture of Gallilea.

Nell

Nell

06-29-2023, 01:28 PM

"Before our story can begin, we need to first understand that Jesus wasn’t simply a Jew. Specifically, He was a Galilean. Not only that, Jesus’ disciples were all Galileans as well. They were Galileans from just about every walk of life. A fisherman, a tax collector, Jesus assembled these together. There is a great reason why. They would be spoken to (by Jesus) in the Galilean vernacular. Even though the region shared the same culture, the Galileans developed customs that were unique only to them.

Why is this important? Because Jesus used people’s cultures to more deeply communicate the spiritual nature of God. He used words and symbols and analogies and parables for them to understand.

You see the Sermon on the Mount. Speaking to them in ways they can understand. He is speaking to them about being fishers of men. Why would you use that analogy unless you knew these were fishermen?

Everything he said was based on the life he lived, the culture he belonged to.

I love this! Everything he said was based on the life he lived, the culture he belonged to. Why?

When he talks to me, he talks to me where I am, in the life I live...what matters to me...whatever is going on in my life is important to him.

Nell

Ohio

06-30-2023, 11:17 AM

Lastly, there is a lot of understanding of End Times Prophecy that is a layer cake of assumptions. Base assumptions layered with additional assumptions then topped with some nice icing. As time has gone on, I've been breaking down the layers and finding that a decent percentage of the common understanding of End Times Prophecy is based on POTENTIALLY false assumptions.
Matt, I wholeheartedly agree with this old post. And this weighs on my heart.

A year ago we joined Christians from numerous churches at the football stadium. So much talk about REVIVAL! "Revival is coming, we can all feel it." The Pastor took time beforehand to provide the scriptural basis. He used a couple OT verses to support the belief that a "great revival would soon sweep over the land."

Huh? If true, would not the NT clearly state such a prophecy? But what does the scripture say? Apostle Paul clearly states that before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, THE APOSTASY must come. (2 Thess 2.3) The words in Greek are very specific. Not just "a falling away," like a backsliding, but "the apostasy," as a determinable phenomena.

So I examined this word apostasia in all my Bible study aids:

The word occurs only here and Acts 21.21 where Paul was accused of being "apostate from Moses"
The word implies that the opposition contemplated by Paul springs up from within the church rather than from without
It must arise from the Jews or apostate Christians, either of whom might be said to fall away from God
Politically this word would be used of a "rebel," but religiously it is used only of an "apostate"
Signifies not the act, but the actual state of apostasy
Apostasy involves capitulation to heretical beliefs as an eschatological phenomenon; capitulation is a surrender under certain terms or conditions
Signifies apostasy from the faith
Apostasy implies a falling away from a position that can be fallen from; not a falling into sin, from which grace can recover, but a relinquishing of faith

All my study was confirmed by Paul's precise prophetic word from God:
"But the Spirit expressly says that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith, they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. - I Tim 4.1"

Needless to say, this study has unsettled me to this day.

Ohio

07-03-2023, 08:51 AM

Thanks Ohio. Posting with love and concern for the bretheren is all we ask of our poster children on the forum. Feel free to discuss.

I hope you can find "Before the Wrath". It's different from any movie I've seen on the end times--it's much more than that. It tells a beautiful story set in the culture of Gallilea.

Nell
I did find this video "Before the Wrath" and there are many things I liked about what was presented. There was enough there that it demands a second viewing, and maybe a third.

Can you believe that those folks would actually prepare for a wedding in that manner? Only God's miraculous behind-the-scenes sovereignty could enable such a custom to develop over time, with the definite goal of presenting future events, the marriage of His First Born. Pretty incredible, eh?

It's kind of similar to God demanding Abraham to sacrifice his long-promised son Isaac on Mount Moriah. That old Genesis story by itself borders on the absurd, like some incredulous myth, or perhaps by a deranged imagination, u_n_l_e_s_s . . .

God desired to give us an actual real life story of faith to help us understand His incredible love for His own Son, and how one day He would allow His Son to be horribly slain on a cross for our sins. "God so loved the world ..."

Nell

07-04-2023, 06:48 AM

Well said, Ohio. Incredible indeed. Such a contrast in wedding planning today!

So many beautiful pictures in God's word, and this is only a few. Reminds me of the hymn lyrics: "the Lord has yet more light and truth to break forth from his word."

It's also an encouragement to look back on our own lives to see the picture of what he has done to win our hearts. The picture for me, looking back, was the appreciation for his word, and the truth of his word. I credit Him for this gift...no one else. Truly spiritual gifts are from God....where credit is due. All other "gifts" must be judged by the fruit produced.

I know that not everyone is on the road to recovery from being in, or in many cases being born and raised in---what is erroneously called the "Lord's Recovery." I pray that will change.

Nell

I'm watching it again too.

OBW

07-04-2023, 06:58 PM

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Significance to your living today aside, hearing the words of prophecy is hardly a dead horse, since we are charged to read and hear the words and keep these words ...why? "...for the time is at hand". If you listen to the news today, why not listen to the words of the prophets? Their message seems to be a “heads up"!

NellAn exercise in missing the point.

I did not say that I have no desire to read it. Or hear it. Or that anyone else should do neither. I said that reading it with a decoder ring — any decoder ring — to figure out the details of what all those types and figures mean is an exercise in missing the point.

I find it interesting that there is no charge to figure out who the sheep and the goats are. And it would appear that we are not put in charge of separating sheep from goats. That is God's job. I realize that if it is as simple as seeing fluffy, wooly sheep and relatively lean, scruffy, horned goats, then we could do it. But the clear distinction must not be so obvious because we don't just separate ourselves. Or help God with the task.

Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Revelation is a complex view of both the "long game" and the "end game" in terms that are designed to keep us alert. Not for the purpose of giving us a chance to make an A+ in metaphor deciphering, but for the purpose of ensuring we are ready when our time comes. That may be at the actual end-times (whenever that happens) or when each of us dies in whatever way we leave this sphere.

And being ready is not about knowing the apocryphal prophecies found in Revelation, but in being spurred on to live the life we have been reborn to live. And Revelation is part of what spurs us on. Not the timing of the "rapture" or the position on figurative v literal understanding of things, but the realization that there is a cosmic war that is going on and will go on until it is all over and that we have a choice where we will ultimately find ourselves in that war.

And what we can do about it is to go back to the roots of our calling and live this life with the next in mind.

Nell

07-04-2023, 07:08 PM

Thank you for your opinion.

Nell

Ohio

07-04-2023, 09:49 PM

Yes, you do have a valid point. There are those who argue eschatology and never pay attention to their walk. Sadly, I and my gospel have been hurt by a few of these.

I believe we have been charged to both have a healthy walk and know the depths of His word.

Why do Christians know so much detail and stats about their favorite sports team, or their favorite music, or their favorite programs, or whatever, but see little value in applying this same long-term diligence to their Bible?

Nell

07-05-2023, 12:17 PM

Interesting quote from the video:

Jesus said when he comes back, will he even find faith on the earth? We know that in the last days there’s going to be a diminishing of people believing. I believe what’s happened in America is the westernized version of, can I say, a “man-made” Christianity?

Christianity is failing. It’s failing in faith. It’s failing in its ability to engage the culture. It’s failing to be ready to be about our Father’s business. It’s failing in evangelism. Why? There’s no sense of urgency. So we are living in a time when there are those saying they believe in the Bible and they believe in Jesus. I have to ask a question “What Bible are you reading?” and “Which Jesus are you talking about?”

OBW

07-06-2023, 11:19 AM

I hear you.

There is no true sense of urgency. And some of the urgency that is there is a substitute for the real thing. And even where there is a claim of belief but no outward urgency, the evidence sometimes might suggest little or no real belief.

Just a social religion that borrows from the Bible.

And, for better or worse, the sum total of all who claim belief is shrinking. There are arguments that it is just those who don't really believe that are dropping their claims, but that is not certain.

Nell

07-08-2023, 07:29 AM

When you look at the whole picture, the Galileans are really the key to understanding the why and what of the second coming of Christ.

Jesus used this illustration that they knew so intimately, over and over and over again. That you have a bride who is loved by a bridegroom, who is betrothed to this bridegroom. The bridegroom is going to make a covenant with her and then he’s going to go away.

And eventually, when they don’t know, he’s going to come back and take her to be with him where he is. This is an amazing thing. It all stems from what the Galileans understood and Jesus talked to the Galileans like they were Galileans so that they would understand what he meant when he said “this is what it’s going to be like when I return”.

Wow.

Nell

Nell

07-08-2023, 10:35 AM

One of the speakers (Jack Hibbs) at one point says this:

59 minutes in:
“So you’ve got the parable of those with oil in their lamp. You’ve got ten of them. All ten started, but not all ten finished. At the time of the midnight cry they all jumped up and trimmed their lamps. But only five had enough oil to continue on.

This is key. Symbolically in Scripture, the oil is reference to the Holy Spirit in your life. So you can be a believer. Jesus said “these are they who believed for awhile”. It doesn’t mean you are born again to believe. Has your belief brought you to faith in Christ.”

Essentially he's saying you can be a believer, but it doesn't mean you are born again..

What does THAT mean? Zezima? Ohio? Anybody?

Nell

Nell

07-08-2023, 07:40 PM

"J. D. Farag: It is our choice. Jesus is not forced on anyone. It is our own free will, it is our choice that we choose to accept our proposal (of marriage) from Jesus Christ as our bridegroom.

This is why Satan, again the why, this is why Satan hates, particularly, the Christian marriage. He hates marriage because of what it represents. It’s (marriage) is a microcosm of what awaits in heaven. We are the family of God, our Heavenly Father. We are brothers and sisters, siblings in Christ. It is a microcosm, a picture of that which is yet to be fulfilled when it comes."
---Before the Fall

For the last few decades we've been seeing Satan's assault on marriage, growing worse and worse. During the Covid epidemic, when children were not allowed in school, parents began to see what their children had been exposed to in schools by the education system which has become perverted. The system in place is attempting to usurp the authority of parents over their own children. We've also been barraged with gender confusion. People are attempting to make themselves into something they are not...also an attack on marriage.

When man and woman were in the garden, in the beginning, God told them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over every living thing that moves on the earth.

If carried to the ultimate conclusion of this Satanic attack on marriage, mankind would cease to exist on the earth. Mankind would be unable to be fruitful, to multiply and replenish the earth. Mankind would no longer have dominion over the living on the earth.

Surely this attack is a rush to the end of days.

Nell

Ohio

07-09-2023, 05:19 AM

OBW

07-11-2023, 10:24 PM

It would seem that the source Nell is looking at is suggesting that belief and being born again are two different things.

And another related question might be: "Is belief merely a step on the way to salvation, or is it the requirement for salvation?"

And if we assume that scripture says strongly enough that belief (true belief, not mere assent) is the requirement on our part for salvation, then there is the question whether being born again is something additional to salvation or is a component of salvation?

Is is not generally accepted by all except the Pentecostals that the receipt of the Spirit is concurrent with salvation? And unless we are questioning the declaration to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved," then what is being suggested by this audio source?

I will be the first to say that a strong acceptance of Calvinist theology makes the idea of believing and then not believing essentially confirms the idea that there is belief that does not equate to belief in Christ. And while I accept this idea at some level, how do we discuss belief in Christ as a certain thing when there are examples of people who have demonstrated strong faith over many years and then walked away from it all and now claim no belief? The Calvinist has the position that true faith cannot be lost. Yet I keep reading John 3:16 and note that it says ". . . who believes in me . . ." not "believed."

In other words, this is probably an inquiry that is not something anyone will resolve in this life. But we still have the assurance that if we believe, we are saved. Whether and how terms like "born again," "salvation," "sanctification," etc. apply is up for debate. At some level, it is a little like the pre/mid/post-tribulation debate. If we are believing and are therefore ready, we will be ready for whatever the answer is when it comes. In short, it will all "pan out" in the end.

Nell

07-12-2023, 09:04 AM

6:55
Kevin: It’s been 2000 years since the final prophecies were recorded, and today the foundation for the convergence of nearly every prophetic sign foretold and the remaining Biblical prophecies have never been more prominent. As a result, a recent rise in debate regarding the signs of the times has led to growing division regarding when the Messiah will return. After all, if the events prophesied within the ancient records are indeed to come to pass, then knowing the timing of the Lord’s return would be of great importance.

Jay McCarl, Middle East Anthropologist
Jay McCarl: The timing is a real hot-button, especially among religious people, Christians and what the like. We love predictability. We want to know when He’s going to be coming back.

Jan Markell, Founder, Olive Tree Ministries
Jan Markell: The conflict, the disagreement, the contention over the timing of the rapture, and particularly in the last ten years, has gone off the charts.

J. D. Farag, Theologian, Senior Pastor
J. D. Farag: Instead of saying “my how they love one another” as they said of the early church, now today they say of the church, “my how they fight with one another”.

Ohio

07-12-2023, 11:51 AM

A year ago we joined Christians from numerous churches at the football stadium. So much talk about REVIVAL! "Revival is coming, we can all feel it." The Pastor took time beforehand to provide the scriptural basis. He used a couple OT verses to support the belief that a "great revival would soon sweep over the land."

Huh? If true, would not the NT clearly state such a prophecy? But what does the scripture say? Apostle Paul clearly states that before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, THE APOSTASY must come. (2 Thess 2.3) The words in Greek are very specific. Not just "a falling away," like a backsliding, but "the apostasy," as a determinable phenomena.

Recently I posted how The Apostasy must come (2 Thess. 2.3) before the coming of our Lord Jesus. What would cause so many Christians to abandon the faith they once held dearly? The recent message by Nigel Tomes, "The Sifting: Difficult Words & Dropout Disciples" based on John 6, asked the same question. In the section, "Why do Disciples Depart & Christians De-convert?" Nigel made numerous explanations which are definitely valid considerations for The Apostasy which may soon confront all of us.

Unresolved doubts about the Bible
Unanswered questions about the Bible
Unanswered prayer
Unfulfilled promises

I believe that it behooves us to prepare for such a coming trial lest we be caught unprepared and deceived. In the course of my travels post-LC, I have spoken many truths from the Bible which have caused push back and even expulsion from my beloved brothers and sisters. Two common eschatological themes which seem to permeate contemporary Christians assemblies are:

A great Revival is coming soon. Who has not sung Robin Mark's "Revival"?
All Christians will be Raptured Pre-Trib.

I have personally and publicly been told, "I don't plan to be here during the Tribulation. The Book of Revelation after ch 3 is not for us. No need to worry, we will all be taken to heaven. etc."

Many Christians have concerns about this, yet are stifled by their leaders. What if these promises are not fulfilled. Are not the children of God being set up for The Apostasy, a tragedy indeed? Remember in the Gospel of John chapter 6 the Lord started out with 5,000 followers and ended with probably about Twelve, one of whom was a devil.

Nell

07-13-2023, 06:04 AM

Ohio,
You are not wrong. Here are a few quotes regarding the apostasy. These speakers believe that the apostacy, the great falling away, is already underway. Here they make their case.
Nell

Before the Wrath
40:34
"Kevin: This brings us to a topic that is fiercely debated today. Since the origins of Christ’s message left with the Galileans has faded into history, Jesus’ statement regarding not knowing the day or the hour of his return has sparked heated debate and growing misconceptions.

Jack Hibbs: And the church has suffered from this. There are those who want to set dates. And yet the Bible teaches both from Jesus himself and from the apostles that no man knows the day or the hour.

J. D. Farag: It is my belief that these date setters, so called, have irreversibly damaged Bible prophesy.

Amir Tsarfaty: I grieve about the obsession about “when will it happen” as far as day and hour. When you start setting days and then it doesn’t happen, then you have millions or hundreds of thousands of disappointed people that, there are good chances that they will walk away from that faith because it wasn’t proved to be right.

Kevin: And the result is that Bible prophecy is systematically erased from Christianity all over the world.

Jan Markell: I’m just so stunned. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. That the greatest news in the Bible is now marginalized jeopardized and is now coming under great criticism and skepticism. Then, you’ll talk to a pastor and he’ll say “well, you know what, I don’t want to be identified with the fringe.” There is a fringe. We don’t know the day or the hour and we don’t. Nobody’s got any special insight. Apparently only God the Father knows.

Amir Tsarfaty: Look. When you live in this world and suddenly someone tells you you’re about to be taken, physically, out of this world, then, knowing the date is like hitting the jackpot. However, it saddens me that, even though Jesus himself said, “no one knows the day and the hour”, why do we think that we need to know? It’s sends a clear message that we’re not supposed to deal with the actual date. We’re supposed to deal with the preparation for that date.

Kevin: In addition, with spreading misconceptions about Biblical prophecy, more church-going Christians, with each passing year, no longer want to hear about these so-called “fringe topics”. Most churches have clearly recognized this trend.

43:10
Jan Markell: If you ask a pastor, he will tell you—flat out—you know what? “The world is coming to an end” is not going to grow my church. The fact that even Jesus is coming back is not going to (grow my church.)

J. D. Farag: That is the number one reason, actually. And it’s really because pastors are, themselves, ignorant concerning Bible prophecy. They are also fearful. They are fearful that if they start teaching Bible prophecy—really they’re teaching the Bible—so how can you not teach the Bible, whole counsel of God, without also teaching prophecy by default? They’re (pastors) are fearful that it’s going to be too controversial.

Amir Tsarfaty: Christians always want to be accepted by the world. They are always on the run to embrace and adopt worldly views in order for people to like them. You sugarcoat everything. You become a motivational speaker rather than a pastor. Because, if you come to a non-believer and you pull out this rapture card, he’s going to run away from you. He’s going to think you’re crazy."

Watching the movie, Before the Wrath (https://www.justwatch.com/us/movie/before-the-wrath), will put this in context for you.

Nell

Ohio

07-13-2023, 11:36 AM

Ohio,
You are not wrong. Here are a few quotes regarding the apostasy. These speakers believe that the apostasy, the great falling away, is already underway. Here they make their case.
Nell

Before the Wrath
40:34
"Kevin: This brings us to a topic that is fiercely debated today. Since the origins of Christ’s message left with the Galileans has faded into history, Jesus’ statement regarding not knowing the day or the hour of his return has sparked heated debate and growing misconceptions.

Jack Hibbs: And the church has suffered from this. There are those who want to set dates. And yet the Bible teaches both from Jesus himself and from the apostles that no man knows the day or the hour.

J. D. Farag: It is my belief that these date setters, so called, have irreversibly damaged Bible prophesy.

Amir Tsarfaty: I grieve about the obsession about “when will it happen” as far as day and hour. When you start setting days and then it doesn’t happen, then you have millions or hundreds of thousands of disappointed people that, there are good chances that they will walk away from that faith because it wasn’t proved to be right.

Kevin: And the result is that Bible prophecy is systematically erased from Christianity all over the world.

I agree, Nell. Recently my wife was told by one Pastor, "we don't teach the book of Revelations because it's just too controversial."

Date-setting during this time is totally futile and distracting. Doing this should totally disqualify the ministry of these ones. The time will come, however, during Daniel's 70th week of years, that we will be able to know the month and the year of His Advent, though not the day or the hour. Both Daniel and Revelation continually mention the period of time of the last half of the week (Dan 9.27), a time, times, half a time (Rev 12.14; Dan 7.25, 12.7), 42 months (Rev 11.2; 13.15), and 1260 days (Rev 11.3; 12.6)

Until the great revelation of the Man of Lawlessness (2 Thess 2.3) takes place, every time prediction / prophecy is just a lie. After this time, it is God's mercy to inform us that He will limit the wrath, the persecution, and the judgments lest all mankind is destroyed. (Matt 24.22)

To make things clear here, the above only refers to the physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth. (Acts 1.11) This in no way applies to the many secret raptures spoken of throughout the Bible.

OBW

07-13-2023, 09:32 PM

Question: Has there not been apostasy since the very writings that now comprise the NT?

I am not dismissing anything current, but didn't the theologians of prior centuries also see evidence that suggested the time was near?

What does deciding that we really do have the general time of the end times do for us? As the disciples of Christ, should we be living differently now than we should have been if we lived 1,500 years ago? Is the very revelation of anything about the ends times for the benefit of figuring it out, or to remind us that given the grand metaphorical narrative supplied, along with the extraordinary power of God to cause even not being as being, that we should always expect it could be today even if it does not happen within this third millennium?

It seems that the history of those who start to "figure things out" is not really so grand.

Agathe

07-14-2023, 01:14 AM

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

Ohio

07-14-2023, 06:13 AM

Question: Has there not been apostasy since the very writings that now comprise the NT?

The question here is wrong. In 2 Thessalonians, while answering questions concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus, the Apostle Paul says The Advent will not occur until THE APOSTASY and THE REVELATION of the man of sin. It’s not a matter of whether or not an apostasy has ever occurred. According to the Book of Acts, Paul was accused of Apostasy from Moses. There is no other mention of “apostasy” in the Bible.

So why would Paul prophesy so specifically of THE coming apostasy if it was not a recognizable event for the church of God? This event is coupled with THE revelation of the Man of Lawlessness, aka the Revelation Beast, aka the coming Antichrist. Obviously Paul considered this to be also a recognizable event. Does anyone think these 2 events might somehow be related?

*The Apostasy* does seem to be quite different from *The Revival* which most Christians are looking forward to. If *The Rapture* occurs long before the prophesied events in the book of Revelation, which many are so sure will happen, then WHY would Paul warn us? Why mention “The Apostasy” to the Thessalonians if it would be such a commonplace event throughout church history?

Nell

07-14-2023, 07:41 AM

Ohio

07-14-2023, 08:22 AM

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html
Thanks Agathe, please register and join the discussion.

The "Got Questions" website does often provide helpful answers to numerous Bible inquiries.

One huge source of confusion about this matter, which I find in nearly all contemporary writings, is that there will be a singular rapture for the entire church of God. This assumption causes endless difficulties among Christians. The Bible never says this, and in fact implies an array of raptures, based on our maturity, our watchfulness, our walk, our sanctity, our martyrdom, etc.

Because most current authors assume a singular rapture, instead of selective rapture, there are endless debates now waging among Christians. Our enemy uses this subject to divide the Church, as I recently experienced again. Reading the Bible again with this new perspective, changes everything for the believer.

Rapture is not a free gift of God, as forgiveness of sins and eternal life are for all those who believe, are born again of the Spirit of God. By simple faith in Jesus, the entire New Covenant is ours. We become children of God, members of His family, escape the lake of fire, etc. all based on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. But rapture, on the other hand, is a reward based on what we do after we receive the Lord as our Savior.

Nell

07-28-2023, 07:28 AM

I recently heard someone on a youtube video say:

"We need to watch the news today with spiritual eyes."

This helped me to realize that what's happening today is not primarily about politics. Rather, it's about how politics can, and in some cases has, become a tool for deception. It was not my habit in the past to be persuaded on matters of truth based on politics.

This quote goes along with another that I appreciate "If you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know."

There are many, what can only be called, doctrines of demons out there today. This is another reason to rely on spiritual eyes, and reserving our opinions until the truth is revealed. By "truth" I'm referring to spiritual truth as well as factual truth.

Nell

Ohio

07-28-2023, 08:39 PM

Nell

08-15-2023, 09:23 AM

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
MATTHEW 24:3

"Jesus chastised religious leaders in the first century for not knowing the time of His arrival. Will we make the same mistake today? Christ stated how His second coming would be preceded by global events signifying the end of our age. We may not know the day or the hour, but we can know the season!"

This movie is by the same folks who produced "Before the Wrath". What stands out to me is how the ancient prophecies are playing out today...before our eyes. You can read these ancient prophecies in the bible, then turn on the world news and follow the dotted lines back to the prophecy with amazing accuracy.

I watched it for free on Tubi. You can watch "Before the Wrath" on Tubi also.

Check it out--
Nell

Nell

08-16-2023, 06:45 AM

"Summarizer: According to various sources, the Bible contains prophecies that describe global politics, natural disasters, the future of the nation of Israel, the coming of a Messiah and a Messianic Kingdom, as well as the ultimate destiny of humankind.

According to J. Barton Payne's Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy, there are 1,239 prophecies in the Old Testament and 578 prophecies in the New Testament, for a total of 1,817. These prophecies are contained in 8,352 of the Bible's verses, constituting 26.8% of the Bible's volume.

However, some of the history and poetry also contain prophecy. Approximately 50% of all biblical prophecies have been literally fulfilled, while another 50%, many relating to the "latter days" or "end-times," have yet to be fulfilled."

Some/most Christian/people have an aversion to paying attention to biblical prophecy. This means 26.8% of the Bible is being ignored. That includes being ignored by pastors of Christian churches today. Does that also mean that, to some extent, 74.2% of the Bible is being taken out of context...by Christians today? To have the full counsel of God would logically mean paying attention to 100% of the Bible.

Nell

Nell

08-26-2023, 09:31 AM

Jack Hibbs:

Things have snowballed in such a way that, frankly, I never thought I would see it this way. Global economic peril. Global border issues. Global lawlessness and global threat of terrorism...the things that the Bible has warned about is coming to pass at the exact time—across the board. We are living in the time of the signs. It’s amazing.

This movie was released in 2017. Add to this in the last 5 years:

Global pandemic.
"Global warming" cult? Hoax? The increase of natural disasters could easily be seen as the result of "Global Warming" while in blatant ignorance of the prophecies of just such events.

Keys:
*Global wars, not regional.
*The clock began to tick on May 12, 1948 when Israel became a nation again..."this generation that saw this happen, will not pass away until..."
* When you see ALL THESE THINGS take place...simultaneously, globally, with increasing frequency and intensity...LOOK UP!
* We could never validly say "He could return any time" until Israel became a nation in 1948.

Don't mess around and blow this one off!

Free on Tubi.

Nell

Kyle Yoakum

08-31-2023, 10:36 AM

Related to Kyle?Yes, Carol is my wife. She is a diligent student of prophecy who puts her good analytical renewed mind to use in comparing Scripture with Scripture. I am always impressed with what she sees in the prophetic Word.

Ohio

08-31-2023, 01:08 PM

Keys:
*Global wars, not regional.
*The clock began to tick on May 12, 1948 when Israel became a nation again..."this generation that saw this happen, will not pass away until..."
* When you see ALL THESE THINGS take place...simultaneously, globally, with increasing frequency and intensity...LOOK UP!
l
This verse has long been quoted in the attempt to roughly date the Lord's return:
Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Matt 24This prophecy has been endlessly discussed since 1948. In 1973 I was told the end must occur by 1988 since a generation is 40 years. But perhaps it means, not the length of time of "this" generation following the inception of the restored nation of Israel. Could it mean that this is the final generation of Israel, that will never pass away or be again exiled? To date, Israel has been exiled into Egypt, then by Assyria, then by Babylon, and lastly by the Romans.

Since this section of scripture concerns the end times, tribulation, and His 2nd Coming, this prophecy may have been wrongly interpreted. Every time Israel has been exiled, they believed it could never happen to them due to their covenant with Jehovah. These covenants are guaranteed by the promises of Jehovah, yet secured as blessing based on Israel's faithfulness, or not.

The previous attacks on Israel will pale in comparison to what is prophesied in the Apocalypse. Tribulation as never before. 200 Million horsemen from the east. The Revelation Beast animated by a beast from the Abyss. Bloodshed of the wine press 200 miles long. Neither with Egypt, nor Assyria, nor Babylon, nor Antioches Epiphanees, nor Roman Titus, nor the Hitler Holocaust did Israel ever face extermination like this.

Yet the Lord promises "this generation will not pass away."

Nell

09-02-2023, 06:08 AM

Question of the day: If the believers will be taken away before the tribulation begins, why are we still here?

Ohio

09-02-2023, 08:18 AM

Question of the day: If the believers will be taken away before the tribulation begins, why are we still here?
Good question.

I think, as time progresses, all believers will be asking, “when is the rapture we were promised.” How many times have I heard, “I don’t plan to be here when things get bad”?

Then the nations will begin to mock the believers. (2 Peter 3.4)

Will the false promises by lying prophets set us up for “The Apostasy?” (2 Thess 2)

I recently studied some the beginnings of the general acceptance of Pre-Trib Rapture popularized initially by J.N.Darby. The original Brethren split began with end times differences between Darby and B. W. Newton. Newton’s teaching on the Parable of the Tares was fairly persuasive. At least to me. None of the Exclusives would agree though.

ACuriousFellow

09-02-2023, 09:56 AM

Question of the day: If the believers will be taken away before the tribulation begins, why are we still here?
We'd have to define "tribulation" first. Has that been done/attempted on this thread? There's tribulation, and then there's "The Tribulation." Is there tribulation? Of course. Is there gonna be a "The Tribulation"? A tribulation to end all tribulations? I believe so, which is really scary considering everything that has happened so far. If I believe there is a "The Tribulation," do I believe it has happened yet? No. Do I believe the believers in Christ will be "taken away" before a "The Tribulation" happens? For the most part, at the very least, yes. But the scriptures also speak of the Antichrist "overcoming the saints." If there is a pre-tribulation rapture, are these saints Christians who were left behind for some reason? Are they people who came to the faith after the rapture (if we are building on the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture). Are they "the remnant" of Israel that come to believe in Christ after the rapture? So many questions.

I guess if I wanted to make this a bit simpler, I'd say... "I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. No scriptures or scriptural arguments that I have heard or read lead me to believe that anyone will get 'left behind,' though I am not rabidly opposed to the notion. Either way, God's people are called to live by faith, and that doesn't change regardless of when the rapture occurs. However, since my understanding favors a pre-tribulation rapture, I have come to believe that the rapture has not yet happened because we have not yet come close enough to a 'The Tribulation' despite having many tribulations."

That's my $2, anyhow.

Nell

09-03-2023, 06:29 AM

We'd have to define "tribulation" first. Has that been done/attempted on this thread? ...
That's my $2, anyhow.

ACF,

Yes. "tribulation" has been discussed, but I don't know that a definition was needed. "Prophecy - The End Times" seemed to be clear. This is a well established topic with 353+ posts on end times prophecy.

So..."tribulation", in this context, is "the great tribulation". The prophets, Jesus himself in Matthew 24, and John in the book of Revelation discuss "the great tribulation".

Based on current events and Biblical prophecy, covered in the movie The Coming Convergence, do you believe we are, or could be, in the beginning stages of the great tribulation? After watching the movie, if you haven't already, do you still "lean toward" the concept of pre-tribulation rapture of the believers?

Another question, if the "great tribulation" is NOT underway (to some extent) when it does begin, what would it look like? What signs are you looking for? What signs would change your mind? The referenced movie makes a pretty clear case that (at least) the beginning of the end is underway.

If so, another question...if the great tribulation has begun, what does that do to the doctrine of "Pre-Tribulation Rapture"?

Nell

Nell

09-18-2023, 10:19 AM

Inputs about the (Pre-Tribulation) Rapture
Preface: I am clear that I don’t know when the rapture will occur because I know that God can do what He plans to do. Based on what is revealed in Scripture and God’s character, I do place a high likelihood on the ekklesia being present on the earth for a significant portion of the Great Tribulation. I would prefer a pre-tribulational rapture, but I cannot see how it lines up with what the Bible says.

I believe every believer should avoid making a 100% conclusion that they are certain about the timing of the rapture. I believe it is important to know that God keeps things secret and that it is best for us to have readiness to respond and adapt to whatever happens. Our faith is not founded in our position about rapture. It is a lesser theological item which will become plain as future events unfold. I have found these two passages to be the most relevant as far as establishing a healthy mindset about Christ’s Second Coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:6–9 (LEB)
6 So then, we must not sleep like the rest, but must be on the alert and be self-controlled. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8 But because we are of the day, we must be sober, by putting on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation, 9 because God did not appoint us for wrath, but for the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Luke 21:34–36 (LEB)
34 “But take care for yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of daily life, and that day come upon you suddenly 35 like a trap. For it will come upon all who reside on the face of the whole earth. 36 But be alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

If I escape all of the Great Tribulation, I will rejoice along with the rest of the ekklesia. If I do not escape all of the Great Tribulation, then I will continue trusting in the Lord day by day to lead and guide me (and others I know) through this perilous time. In this case, I pray the Lord grant me excellent hearing, humble repentance and even better obedience to His voice as the best way through each day.

_____________
These inputs from Matt continue in the attached .pdf.

Ohio

09-18-2023, 08:29 PM

So..."tribulation", in this context, is "the great tribulation". The prophets, Jesus himself in Matthew 24, and John in the book of Revelation discuss "the great tribulation".

Based on current events and Biblical prophecy, covered in the movie The Coming Convergence, do you believe we are, or could be, in the beginning stages of the great tribulation? After watching the movie, if you haven't already, do you still "lean toward" the concept of pre-tribulation rapture of the believers?

Another question, if the "great tribulation" is NOT underway (to some extent) when it does begin, what would it look like? What signs are you looking for? What signs would change your mind? The referenced movie makes a pretty clear case that (at least) the beginning of the end is underway.

If so, another question...if the great tribulation has begun, what does that do to the doctrine of "Pre-Tribulation Rapture"?

Nell
Nell, the Bible is pretty specific about the Great Tribulation. Jesus said the G.T. will begin (Mt 24.21) after the "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel, standing in the holy place." (Mt 24.15; Daniel 9.27) This will occur in the middle of the last week of years spoken of by Daniel.

The length of time of the G.T. will be 1/2 of 7 years, or 3.5 years (Dan 7.25; Rev 12.14), and is also referred to as 42 months (Rev 11.2; 13.5), and 1,260 days (Rev 11.3; 12.6)

The abomination of desolation at the Temple in Israel should correspond with the "revelation of the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction," spoken of by Paul. (2 Thess 2.3)

This time of the G.T. does not mean there will be no "tribulation," natural or supernatural calamities, or persecution prior to it.

Ohio

09-19-2023, 02:11 AM

I would prefer a pre-tribulational rapture, but I cannot see how it lines up with what the Bible says.

I believe every believer should avoid making a 100% conclusion that they are certain about the timing of the rapture.

If I escape all of the Great Tribulation, I will rejoice along with the rest of the ekklesia. If I do not escape all of the Great Tribulation, then I will continue trusting in the Lord day by day to lead and guide me (and others I know) through this perilous time. In this case, I pray the Lord grant me excellent hearing, humble repentance and even better obedience to His voice as the best way through each day.

I think it would be wise that all the children of God adopt this daily attitude. Unfortunately many have adopted what I would consider a somewhat cavalier attitude towards the Great Tribulation. Comments like, “I don’t plan to be here during this time,” or “we have nothing to worry about, God will rapture us all to heaven before things get bad,” are far too prevalent. It seems that many American church-goers have never faced real adversity, and may face shocking developments. I hope not.

But this is the scenario that may set us up for “The Apostasy” which Paul speaks of in 2 Thess 2. He assured the Thessalonians that the “day of the Lord” will not come until “the apostasy” comes first. Why would many “leave their stand,” the meaning of apostasy? Paul does not refer to some rebellion by worldly people, but a departure of those who once professed the faith.

Facing unexpected tribulation, while completely expecting to be delivered from it, might cause many to cave under pressure. One Bible commentary used the word “capitulation” to describe the apostasy. In other words, it seems that some, or many, will renege on their faith in exchange for temporary comfort or safety. Such could be envisioned for those who accept the mark of the Beast.

Nell

09-19-2023, 07:39 AM

I think it would be wise that all the children of God adopt this daily attitude. Unfortunately many have adopted what I would consider a somewhat cavalier attitude towards the Great Tribulation. Comments like, “I don’t plan to be here during this time,” or “we have nothing to worry about, God will rapture us all to heaven before things get bad,” are far too prevalent. It seems that many American church-goers have never faced real adversity, and may face shocking developments. I hope not.

But this is the scenario that may set us up for “The Apostasy” which Paul speaks of in 2 Thess 2. He assured the Thessalonians that the “day of the Lord” will not come until “the apostasy” comes first. Why would many “leave their stand,” the meaning of apostasy? Paul does not refer to some rebellion by worldly people, but a departure of those who once professed the faith.

Facing unexpected tribulation, while completely expecting to be delivered from it, might cause many to cave under pressure. One Bible commentary used the word “capitulation” to describe the apostasy. In other words, it seems that some, or many, will renege on their faith in exchange for temporary comfort or safety. Such could be envisioned for those who accept the mark of the Beast.

Good points, and I agree.

Christians who believe in their own personal interpretations of scripture, and live their lives according to their own understanding, might be in trouble.With so many contrary beliefs about the Word...everyone cannot be right. We are told to "watch and pray".

This statement from Matt: I believe every believer should avoid making a 100% conclusion that they are certain about the timing of the rapture. I believe it is important to know that God keeps things secret and that it is best for us to have readiness to respond and adapt to whatever happens. This is a healthy position. In most matters of the faith, God keeps things secret...

Based on these verses in Revelation 6 I personally believe that we are in the beginning stages of the tribulation now. I pray I'm wrong.

Rev. 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. (Reference to finance and economy)
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. (Famine)
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Nell

Ohio

09-19-2023, 12:08 PM

Good points, and I agree.

Based on these verses in Revelation 6 I personally believe that we are in the beginning stages of the tribulation now. I pray I'm wrong.

Nell
I agree. Talk to Christians in China, Muslim countries, or even Canada, and they will say that 5th Seal tribulation has already begun. When the Bible says "Great" Tribulation, it does not mean the only tribulation, but the worst tribulation mankind has ever seen. The G.T. will not just be an assault on Christians and Jews, but all mankind. There will be slaughters from the Beast on earth, and supernatural calamities from the heavens. The finale will be that horrible battle of Armageddon, with the armies of the East and the West, the kings of the earth gathered to make war against Him who rides the white horse, whose name is the Word of God.

Nell

09-20-2023, 08:15 AM

I agree. Talk to Christians in China, Muslim countries, or even Canada, and they will say that 5th Seal tribulation has already begun. When the Bible says "Great" Tribulation, it does not mean the only tribulation, but the worst tribulation mankind has ever seen. The G.T. will not just be an assault on Christians and Jews, but all mankind. There will be slaughters from the Beast on earth, and supernatural calamities from the heavens. The finale will be that horrible battle of Armageddon, with the armies of the East and the West, the kings of the earth gathered to make war against Him who rides the white horse, whose name is the Word of God.

If you haven't watched the Coming Convergence movie, now would be a good time. It will provide a framework for your own research.

From Jack Hibbs, Founder, Calvary Chapel, Chino Hills
The amazing thing about biblical prophecy, is that biblical prophecy is something you can actually study scientifically. It’s actually called eschatology, where what the Bible has claimed to be prophetic, in fact, 27% of the Bible is prophetic, that the claims that it makes, do they come to pass? Is it true what the Bible has to say?

I don't know who Jack Hibbs is, but he is following Acts 17:11. Don't take anyone's word for it. Pay attention for yourself. We're at the point where we can look at what's been prophecied, then watch the evening news, read about it online, etc. Then here's another favorite quote "Watch the news with spiritual eyes."

The message to all believers is "be ready". There's "eternally" ready, and there's ready for today. How do you do that? How do you "get ready"? How do you know what is "true" vs. "coincidence" or some such? Here's my favorite quote, yet again, "If you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know."

Do you need to form an opinion this second? Can you wait a minute...until God tells you? In my experience, truth has a ring. You hear it and you know it...or not. There's that sneaky feeling "something's not right...". I don't know how else to describe it...a feeling that something is either true or not...right or wrong. If you've never experienced that "phenom", check your pulse.

In Ephesians 3 Paul writes:
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

So here's my "translation according to Nell": What Paul is saying is: "God told me." Further, I know what I know "by the Spirit." Not because I studied the bible and gained knowledge alone...even though no one knew the scriptures like Paul. It wasn't until Paul got knocked off his horse and God spoke to him. God communicates to us through the Holy Spirit and the word...not the word alone.

You may or may not get an immediate "revelation" from God. What's important is that you ask your questions of God. Read the word...ask Him if your understanding is truth...correct. This is called fellowshipping with the Holy Spirit.

We fell for Witness Lee's "truth" hook, line and sinker, refusing to question him...because he told us not to ask questions. Wow. We really did that. Let's don't do that anymore.

Nell

Ohio

09-23-2023, 08:21 AM

If you haven't watched the Coming Convergence movie, now would be a good time. It will provide a framework for your own research.

I watched the Coming Convergence movie. Prolly watch again.

Movie continually speaks of "One World Government," as if there are scripture verses which define that. The Bible, however, speaks of a (restored) Roman prince and 10 kings which will give all their power to this Beast. It also speaks of tremendous armies from the east during the 6th Trumpet.

If we look at the current geo-political alignments, there seems to be Two world governments. More like NATO vs BRICS, West vs East.

What say you?

Nell

09-24-2023, 05:47 AM

I watched the Coming Convergence movie. Prolly watch again.

Movie continually speaks of "One World Government," as if there are scripture verses which define that. The Bible, however, speaks of a (restored) Roman prince and 10 kings which will give all their power to this Beast. It also speaks of tremendous armies from the east during the 6th Trumpet.

If we look at the current geo-political alignments, there seems to be Two world governments. More like NATO vs BRICS, West vs East.

What say you?

Yeah. I'm not sure about a literal "one world government" either. But since you asked...

I read Revelation 18 again, thinking about "one world order", etc., with the phrase "Babylon is fallen". When looking at Babylon the Great, what is described is the entire world economic system. The movie states that individual nations/countries will still exist, but with one overriding authority, or one overriding court system to which all nations will submit. This seems to be feasible, but why or how would the entire world economies be linked or intertwined?

Rev. 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

At around 1:12 the narrator begins a discussion of "One World, One Internet (https://www.icann.org/)" with the statement "Whoever controls the Internet, controls the world." When Al Gore invented the Internet (joke) he seemed to put in place the very means to link the economies of the world through electronic banking. With the emergence of digital currency, this would create stronger ties among the world economies. My question about digital currency is "Should the Internet become compromised, or unavailable for some reason, would digital currency still exist?" If so, how? How is digital currency accessed without a fully functional Internet?

Another scary verse Revelation 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

One hour? How can Babylon fall in only one hour? How can the economies of the world collapse in only ONE HOUR?

What makes the Internet work? Everyone probably is familiar with an IP address and its format 255.255.255.255 (IPV4). So what's in a number? IP addresses are mapped to a name through a protocol DNS (Domain Name Service). DNS is like a phonebook for the Internet. This DNS "phonebook" is held on "root servers" which are accessible throughout the Internet around the world. Should these DNS root servers become compromised...it would only take one hour...or less...to fulfill Revelation 18:17.

Of course, there are backup root servers, but I think you get the idea. There's a thought "The Internet will NEVER be down". Maybe not, but your access to the Internet can and is periodically compromised. You know this. Does any country have overriding control/authority over the Internet. You betcha. Who? Used to be the US. Not anymore.

Check out location 1:12.

Sorry, Ohio. Long answer. :xx:

Nell

Nell

10-08-2023, 07:55 AM

I don't know when this article was posted but in lignt of yesterday's attack on Israel (October 7, 2023) it's interesting.

https://www.gotquestions.org/end-times-Israel.html

"There is much turmoil in Israel today. Israel is persecuted, surrounded by enemies—Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, etc. But this hatred and persecution of Israel is only a hint of what will happen in the end times (Matthew 24:15-21).

The latest round of persecution began when Israel was reconstituted as a nation in 1948. Many Bible prophecy scholars believed the six-day Arab-Israeli war in 1967 was the "beginning of the end."

Could what is taking place in Israel today indicate that the end is near? Yes.
Does it necessarily mean the end is near? No.

Jesus Himself said it best, "Watch out that no one deceives you. . . . You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come" (Matthew 24:4-6)."

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Nell

10-09-2023, 07:16 AM

I heard an interview between an American news source who asked a Jewish reporter on the ground in Israel. The question was something like this: How did the Israel Defense Ministry call up so many reserves so fast to muster to the situation in Israel?

Paraphrased answer:
All people of Israel are in the military. All are in the reserves. We have seen war before. We are trained on what to do when we see the signs of war. So the reserves didn't need to receive an order to report for duty. Reserves see what's happening is bad, and report for duty without hesitation.

This is on the events happening before our eyes on the world stage. What do you think is happening in the heavenlies? What is happening in the spiritual realm? We are commanded to "be ready". I think we have a great example of the readiness of the Israel military. They already know what to do. They have been trained. What about us? Are we fighting a spiritual battle? Will we even recognize a call to spiritual action should the call be issued?

Do we know and appreciate the signs of spiritual warfare? Will we wait for orders or will we just report for duty? Have we trained up according to scripture for the coming days? Our call for duty today should start on our knees.

The verse "watch and pray" should be much more meaningful today than it was last week. If we aren't adequately trained up now, we should get there. There's a message here. Maybe not the same message for each of us, other than the command "be ready".

Nell

Nell

10-11-2023, 05:20 PM

Huh?

...426 earthquakes on the day Israel was invaded. (youtube.com/shorts/98gk0e-dT5o)

This is amazing....it really happened. 426 earthquakes on the day Israel was invaded by Hamas. Whatever the significance, we don't know. I think the only thing we can say for for sure...it was a foreshadow of things to come.

Nell

Additional confirmation: Earthquake Archive (https://www.volcanodiscovery.com/earthquakes/archive/2023-oct-7.html)

Note: this video is in a loop. It begins with the light bulbs shaking so you know when to stop it. Unchecking "loop" doesn't help me. It's about 60 seconds.

Ohio

10-11-2023, 08:48 PM

Huh?

...426 earthquakes on the day Israel was invaded. (youtube.com/shorts/98gk0e-dT5o)

This is amazing....it really happened. 426 earthquakes on the day Israel was invaded by Hamas. Whatever the significance, we don't know. I think the only thing we can say for for sure...it was a foreshadow of things to come.

Nell

Every time Israel is attacked and invaded, they gain more of their promised land.

One of these times they will get their temple too.

Nell

10-13-2023, 07:04 AM

This is my theory, but it makes sense to me. When you hear about children/babies openly being slaughtered in Gaza, some people are horrified, but some people are apparently unphased. How can this be?

In the United States alone, since abortion on demand was legalized in 1972, over 60,000,000...60 million lives of children have been taken. Around the world the count of innocent lives taken due to legalized abortion on demand is untold.

It seems to me that in some parts of the world, including the United States, people have become desensitized to the loss of its innocent children. Watching the news on TV today, some still protest—-not the taking of innocent lives, but those who stand against the brutality-to-the-death of children. These things should not be. God will judge.

Biblical evidence (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Moloch-ancient-god)
"The laws given to Moses by God expressly forbade the Jews to do what was done in Egypt or in Canaan. “You shall not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Moloch, and so profane the name of your God” (Leviticus 18:21).

Yet kings such as Ahaz (2 Kings 16:3) and Manasseh (2 Kings 21:6), having been influenced by the Assyrians, are reported to have worshipped Moloch at the hilled site of Topheth, outside the walls of Jerusalem. This site flourished under Manasseh’s son King Amon but was destroyed during the reign of Josiah, the reformer.

“And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Moloch” (2 Kings 23:10)."

Nell

Nell

01-03-2024, 07:50 AM

Who is Laodicea? It would be unlikely that anyone who has been "in" then "out" of the Local Church of Witness Lee would not not recognize the description of Laodicea from Revelation 3. Especially Rev. 3:17 highlighted below. Pride and arrogance are one hallmark of Witness Lee's "ministry", which continues in the LC leadership to this day.

What about the remainder of the Lord's brothers who come together in organized “churches” around the globe? Laodicea is everywhere. He knows the works of all his children. A serious warning in Rev. 3:22: if you have an ear to hear, hear what the SPIRIT SAYS to the churches. Listen to the Spirit...not the men who are in leadership. It's important to have an ear to hear the Spirit.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things said the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would thou were cold or hot.
16 So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue you out of my mouth.
17 Because you said, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and do not know that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that you may see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. ...

I don't recall that Lee, et al, practiced "forbidding to marry" but I do know that they, practiced arranging marriages...maybe they still do. Abstaining from meats is "commanded" globally as part of the "Green Cult".

Even so, there is a declaration of love to Laodicea and call for repentance.

Again, who is Laodicea? Is the church in America near the time of being spewed out of His mouth?

Nell

Nell

01-03-2024, 08:04 AM

Another serious warning: 1 Peter 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Nell

01-08-2024, 06:36 AM

Does any of this sound familiar…maybe from the news lately?

The Seals

Rev. 6 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.

5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds[a] of wheat for a day’s wages,[b] and six pounds[c] of barley for a day’s wages,[d] and do not damage the oil and the wine!”

7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Nell

02-05-2024, 02:19 PM

Pope Francis blesses same sex marriage. (https://apnews.com/article/vatican-lgbtq-pope-bfa5b71fa79055626e362936e739d1d8)

"A seismic and prophetic event just happened in our culture end-time - Jonathan Cahn exposes it and what it means for the end-times and your future ... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES6SD6RVcuo)"

What do you think? Is this the most obvious apostacy of the end times to date?

Nell

Ohio

02-05-2024, 09:41 PM

Nell

02-09-2024, 08:22 AM

"Summary
So, over a period of about one week in total, God gave me a very strong word regarding upcoming judgment that seems to match passages where the same language pointed at war. I cannot tell the scope of the war, but it seems to me that it is not too far off. We already have growing conflict in the Middle East. Since God did not give me a specific sense of timing, I won’t speculate.

I am not going to add any further summary. I will leave it to the reader to consider the things shared here before the Lord and I pray the Lord will speak to your heart.

– A. Layman"

Read all of the message from God here (https://laymansfellowship.com/2023/12/31/christmas-message-from-god-2023/):

Ohio

02-18-2024, 10:06 AM

Nell, I’ve had some thoughts recently on these verses in Revelation 13 which have long been troublesome to Bible scholars.

13 And the second beast [the False Prophet] performed great signs to cause even fire from heaven to come down to earth in the presence of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given to perform on behalf of the first beast [the Antichrist Beast], it deceived those who dwell on the earth, telling them to make an image to the [the Antichrist] beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet had lived. 15 The second beast was permitted to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship it to be killed.

How could an image speak? The prophets of old often would mock those images of wood, stone, or metal because “they had eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, etc.” Recent technology has, in a sense, changed all that. Have we not seen robots with “faces,” which could also walk and talk?

Now let’s put together several additional recent technologies. A robot with a face that could talk. Add WiFi, AI, facial recognition, wireless charging, and these NSA super computers which are recording our every online action.

Let me now present a frightening and completely realistic scenario. A famous world leader who brought peace and security to us, will be recently assassinated. A perfect body double with matching face and voice is built. This image, which never needs sleep, could walk into a room with other leaders and could recognize each of them. AI would enable convincing undetectable conversation. The image could piece together one’s entire life and personality based on their online history with total recall. Every time the image “sat down” its battery was charged.

Think about it. Someone who “knows” you and knows everything about you, apparently better than you do. Is this not “God.” Would not the many be deceived into worshiping the image as “God.”

Nell

02-18-2024, 10:53 AM

Nell, I’ve had some thoughts recently on these verses in Revelation 13 which have long been troublesome to Bible scholars.

How could an image speak? The prophets of old often would mock those images of wood, stone, or metal because “they had eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, etc.” Recent technology has, in a sense, changed all that. Have we not seen robots with “faces,” which could also walk and talk?

Now let’s put together several additional recent technologies. A robot with a face that could talk. Add WiFi, AI, facial recognition, wireless charging, and these NSA super computers which are recording our every online action.

Let me now present a frightening and completely realistic scenario. A famous world leader who brought peace and security to us, will be recently assassinated. A perfect body double with matching face and voice is built. This image, which never needs sleep, could walk into a room with other leaders and could recognize each of them. AI would enable convincing undetectable conversation. The image could piece together one’s entire life and personality based on their online history with total recall. Every time the image “sat down” its battery was charged.

Think about it. Someone who “knows” you and knows everything about you, apparently better than you do. Is this not “God.” Would not the many be deceived into worshiping the image as “God.”

Yes. This deception is not only possible but probable. This is a totally realistic scenario. One more thing, Add crypto currency to that and you have the world economy in collapse as crypto currency is digital only. This shows how critical it is that we have a walk with God himself…that we “be not deceived”. His sheep hear his voice and follow him.

We desperately need to pay attention to what’s going on today.

Nell

Ohio

02-18-2024, 11:23 AM

Yes. This deception is not only possible but probable. This is a totally realistic scenario. One more thing, Add crypto currency to that and you have the world economy in collapse as crypto currency is digital only. This shows how critical it is that we have a walk with God himself…that we “be not deceived”. His sheep hear his voice and follow him.

We desperately need to pay attention to what’s going on today.

Nell
Agreed. And a warning to us all not to allow our entire life to be “digitized.”

Talking to my wife recently, I wondered if in the tribulation there would no longer be any means to know the truth. Like totalitarian states of old, the news would only be “Pravda” propaganda. No bibles allowed, no churches or liberty to assemble. No freedom to speak or listen to anything which is actually “true.” God will have given all those who do not love the truth over to some horrible delusion, a system of error. (2 Ths 2)

How could we even discern what we see or hear? The whole world groping in the darkness of a huge cavern, unable to identify anything for what it really is. How frightening! Our only basis for truth in that day is what we know and remember from scripture today.

Nell

02-18-2024, 12:17 PM

Agreed. And a warning to us all not to allow our entire life to be “digitized.”

Talking to my wife recently, I wondered if in the tribulation there would no longer be any means to know the truth. Like totalitarian states of old, the news would only be “Pravda” propaganda. No bibles allowed, no churches or liberty to assemble. No freedom to speak or listen to anything which is actually “true.” God will have given all those who do not love the truth over to some horrible delusion, a system of error. (2 Ths 2)

How could we even discern what we see or hear? The whole world groping in the darkness of a huge cavern, unable to identify anything for what it really is. How frightening! Our only basis for truth in that day is what we know and remember from scripture today.

If we haven’t already begun, we should begin to communicate with him now about the things coming through the written word and the spoken word. A particularly sobering word is: judgment begins at the house of God. I believe that judgment has already begun.

Nell

Nell

03-24-2024, 10:13 AM

https://youtu.be/3_mcNX99VaU?si=X789e696CpEc9AOH

Very interesting stuff. Probably need to pay attention. We may need more than those little solar glasses.

Nell

bearbear

03-24-2024, 12:47 PM

bearbear

03-24-2024, 03:39 PM

Nelson Walters had a interesting video where he contends that the most important question is not the timing of the Lord's return but whether or not we will actually make it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkWcbzfedIM

Jesus implies in verses like Luke 18:8 that not many on the earth will have faith when he returns: "... Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

Matthew 7:14
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

From NDE's I've research I've found two that claim only 2.5% of people on the earth are actually saved which would fit the narrative of only a few being saved and/or making it in a rapture.

Howard Pittman's testimony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKnwGMG7PHg&t=1398s

Karl Falken's testimony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qMpex6WPC0&t=3580s

To back up this claim using scripture, during Ejiah's time, God told him that he had saved a remnant of 7000 Israelites who did not bow down to Baal.

1 Kings 19:18
"Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."

The population of the kingdom of Israel around this time was around 300000, meaning 7000/300000 or ~2.3% of Israelites were saved during that time.

Now here's a sobering thing to think about: Jesus says few are saved yet many in comparison will think they are saved and refer to him as Lord and find themselves disowned. Jesus says he never knew them so they were likely never born again. They likely misinterpreted grace to mean they could live their lives however they wanted and they did not follow the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) and hence were lawless/evil doers.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

Okay you may be thinking to yourself 2.5% sounds abnormally low, but based on cell phone data only 2.8% of Americans actually attend church on a weekly basis including people of all faiths:
https://twitter.com/Devin_G_Pope/status/1679870211841826817

Ohio

03-24-2024, 07:50 PM

I leaned towards a pre-wrath view of end-times like the early church fathers did but I'm open to pre-trib as well. As described in The Didache, an apostolic instruction manual for the early church, many actually believed that Jesus could come at any moment as described in the parable of the wise virgins and encouraged each other to stay pure for his coming. At the same time they also believed they would have to have face the Anti-Christ and endure the tribulation.

Today we think of these two views as mutually exclusive but the early church somehow believed both of them could be true.

Attached is Chapter 16 of The Didache's perspective on "The Last Days".
I agree here. I do believe that it is a faulty assumption to believe that all raptures occur simultaneously. The general Harvest of believers in the parable of the Tares (Matt 13.30), connects with the Harvest of the Earth in Revelation 14.14-16 which is near the end of the Great Tribulation. The reaping of the Firstfruits, (Rev 14.1-5) however, appears to be earlier in time before the Warnings of the 3 Angels and the destruction of Babylon.

Nell

03-26-2024, 05:59 AM

It ain’t over ‘til it’s over.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xG0MOFRTTTQ

Nell

https://youtu.be/3_mcNX99VaU?si=X789e696CpEc9AOH

Very interesting stuff. Probably need to pay attention. We may need more than those little solar glasses.

Nell

Nell

04-14-2024, 05:32 AM

“Iran launches drone attack on Israel”

Ohio

04-14-2024, 07:22 AM

“Iran launches drone attack on Israel”
Israel is being told to "turn the other cheek" towards Iran since US moneys paid for those drones.

Nell

04-14-2024, 04:19 PM

Israel is being told to "turn the other cheek" towards Iran since US moneys paid for those drones.

Yeah...Israel takes orders from no one.

OBW

04-14-2024, 09:31 PM

Ohio

04-15-2024, 02:03 AM

I happened to read some of the beginnings of this thread and they were quite interesting. According to the first post, Israel was prophecied (by the Arab world) to be blotted from the earth (my words, not theirs) by 2022.

And here we are in 2024.

What are the prophecies of the end times? I seem to recall that there was something about events that would indicate the end within that generation.

Yet the event keeps getting restated. First, it was the (re)creation of Israel as a nation. Then it was this war or that war.

Question. What was the relevance of Revelation for the past 2,000 years if it is really only about the end times? (Ignoring the first 3 chapters.) Are we looking for the wrong thing(s) in it? Is there current value if it turns out that the end still hasn't happened by 2095? If so, how do we read it apart from dispensational rapture theology?
Obviously if you heed the many false prophecies of the end time like the Millerite SDA (1844), the Mayans (2012), or the Arabs (2022), it’s kind of like those predicted by Climate Prophets like Al Gore, John Kerry, AOC, or Greta Thunberg.

There is, however, a definite blessing in reading (1.3 out loud?) the Revelation of Jesus Christ. After these events in Revelation begin to occur, many Christians will wish they had heeded this instruction more carefully.

Today we are in a time of great delusion and lawlessness, with a tremendous adversity to truth, all predicted by Paul in 2 Thess 2. The Bible clearly instructs us to watch for the signs of the end times, rather than attempt to ascribe some date. The only times and dates we should consider are after the age of grace, the fullness of the Gentiles, when the Temple is restored in Israel. That event starts the clock.

Nell

04-15-2024, 06:29 AM

Obviously if you heed the many false prophecies of the end time like the Millerite SDA (1844), the Mayans (2012), or the Arabs (2022), it’s kind of like those predicted by Climate Prophets like Al Gore, John Kerry, AOC, or Greta Thunberg.

There is, however, a definite blessing in reading (1.3 out loud?) the Revelation of Jesus Christ. After these events in Revelation begin to occur, many Christians will wish they had heeded this instruction more carefully.

Today we are in a time of great delusion and lawlessness, with a tremendous adversity to truth, all predicted by Paul in 2 Thess 2. The Bible clearly instructs us to watch for the signs of the end times, rather than attempt to ascribe some date. The only times and dates we should consider are after the age of grace, the fullness of the Gentiles, when the Temple is restored in Israel. That event starts the clock.

Agreed. We are commanded to "watch". Any conclusions we may reach based on what we "see" are due to our own natural interpretation of events. Events before our eyes today are more global than ever before, due to the fact that news today is global. I think this might make a difference in how we view what's going on in the world today as compared to the past. There seems to be a clearer convergence of end-times events like never before.

Just because, in man's finite wisdom, events seem to get restarted and this war or that war has been going on seemingly "forever", does this relieve believers of the responsibility to watch and pray?

So what are we supposed to do? IMHO, be ready...get ready. Talk to Him. Repent. Stand firm. We don't know everything! We don't NEED to know everything. We NEED to know HIM. Here's another biggie "Lean not to your own understanding."

Nell

Nell

05-01-2024, 12:14 PM

"Current Events Are Showing That
WE ARE ALREADY IN THE TRIBULATION"

Dr. Christian Wilder makes his case in The Temple Revealed (https://endtimesberean.com/the-temple-revealed/)

You can download the PDF of his book at this (https://endtimesberean.com/the-temple-revealed/) link.

Nell

Ohio

05-01-2024, 09:07 PM

Nell

05-02-2024, 08:06 AM

Without me buying the book, where does he locate the Temple?

You can download the PDF at no cost at the above link.

You might start with this helpful video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWN0RVII1MA).

Basically, he discusses, as a professional engineer, his own personal exploration of the temple mount and landmarks of the former temple which remain "hidden in plain sight" to this day. He discusses man's previous beliefs about what the scripture says and today's current events. Do we rely on man's interpretation of what we believe will happen, or look at our own beliefs in line with current events.

He isn't saying he is "right". Neither am I. He's just saying it's worth a look.

I haven't done a good job with this explanation. I'm reviewing his YouTube and just starting out on his book. I think current events are much further along than the time it would take to build the temple...anywhere...so there must be something going on that I/we don't know about regarding the temple.

Nell

Nell

05-02-2024, 08:43 AM

Without me buying the book, where does he locate the Temple?

From the introduction:

“Fascinating and a great read! I encourage any Christian interested in prophecies of Christ’s return to read this book. Dr. Widener has a great love for Israel and a deep interest in biblical prophecy. Believing that Scripture predicts not only the reestablishment of the State of Israel (which occurred in 1948) and the return of Jerusalem to Israeli control (which occurred in 1967) but also that the Jewish Temple must be rebuilt on Temple Mount before Jesus returns, he has set himself to examine how this could possibly happen, given the fact that the Mosque of Omar and the Dome of the Rock dominate the site.

No one believes the Islamists will voluntarily surrender this territory, and any attempt to seize it would clearly result in bloody violence. Dr. Widener examines the historical and archaeological record carefully, as well as the geography of Temple Mount, and he demonstrates that the Third Temple (of Herod’s day) actually stood north of the Dome of the Rock. Therefore the Jewish Temple can be rebuilt on its original site without the risk of war, and he strongly believes it will be.

While the details regarding the future Temple may still be debatable, what is clear and certain is where the former temples used to sit and that Christ will come again to rule and reign from Jerusalem.”

—DR. MICHAEL P. ANDRUS, LEAD PASTOR, RETIRED,
FIRST EVANGELICAL FREE CHURCH, WICHITA, KS

Nell

05-02-2024, 09:34 AM

In light of current events this is VERY INTERESTING.

Preface

THE PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK is to attempt to settle the question of the location of the Jewish temple through a multi-disciplinary approach that includes religious and prophetic reasoning. In the past, this question has been mainly addressed with either: (1) simply less information that what is currently available today, or (2) by using a disciplined approach with purely historical or archaeological evidences. In either case, definitively substantiating the precise location of the temple before it was destroyed in AD 70 has proven intractable.

I have been studying this question for more than a decade because of its prophetic implications and because I think it is a key to achieving lasting peace in Israel. Many would challenge the latter statement and assert that it is exactly the temple that presents the greatest risk to peace. But that idea is deeply flawed because it assumes that it is possible that in some future state the Jewish people will finally forget about the temple. But we have almost 2000 years of observational data that argue quite convincingly to me that this is not true. It is like a piece of shrapnel embedded near the Jewish heart or the proverbial thorn in the lion’s paw. In both cases, the offense must be removed, i.e., by rebuilding the temple, in order for true peace to be achieved.

The other reason that this issue matters is that support from the U.S., fueled by the Christian community, is the key to Israel being able to establish sufficient sovereignty over the Temple Mount in order to allow them to begin rebuilding the temple. Some might chafe at this comment as well, but the truth is that it was the support of the U.S. that tipped the balance to approve the establishment of statehood by Israel in the first place. The U.S. has also played a significant role in the defense and continued existence of Israel as a nation. It was the acknowledgment of the U.S. that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel that finally made it a reality for the world to just accept. The U.S. also first approved the annexation of the Golan Heights, which afterwards was approved by the Israeli Knesset and annexed. Therefore, it is not mere
fanciful imagination to expect that finally allowing full and equal access to the Temple Mount and the rebuilding of the Jewish temple will also first require American support.

Ohio

05-02-2024, 10:38 AM

No one believes the Islamists will voluntarily surrender this territory, and any attempt to seize it would clearly result in bloody violence. Dr. Widener examines the historical and archaeological record carefully, as well as the geography of Temple Mount, and he demonstrates that the Third Temple (of Herod’s day) actually stood north of the Dome of the Rock. Therefore the Jewish Temple can be rebuilt on its original site without the risk of war, and he strongly believes it will be.

While the details regarding the future Temple may still be debatable, what is clear and certain is where the former temples used to sit and that Christ will come again to rule and reign from Jerusalem.”

I once read an article that discussed 3 Temple sites that were being actively debated, each with “overwhelming” archeological evidence.

With the current state of anti-semitism, and the lack of action by our federal agencies, it’s becoming easier to see why a rising “Prince” from a restored Roman Empire will be revered by Israel as their long-awaited Messiah, who will provide them with security and allow them to build their Temple.

I doubt we will ever know the site of this Temple until construction begins.

Nell

07-15-2024, 08:48 AM

What happened? It's widely believed that God intervened on July 13 to spare the life of a man. That can not rationally be disputed. Does this mean God is a Republican? Is that the message?

What's the message? God is God. IMHO the message is that a merciful God is in control. "God is in control."

Men, mankind, was created by God and God alone. God alone can secure and protect those he created. In fact, he is jealous over us.

Exodus 34:13-17 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

For a very long time Americans, including the church in America, has gone "a whoring" after a long list of other "gods". "gods" of all kinds.

This should get our attention. By his current actions God is extending his mercy to us for a little more time. That he is in control is a great mercy to us.

I might be wrong about some of this. But, in the spirit of the message, I might not be wrong.

What do you do when the Creator offers a hand of mercy as we approach the end of days? Are we really in the end of days?

Nell

Nell

08-09-2024, 07:08 AM

Ohio

08-09-2024, 10:29 AM

1. Will we be here during the Great Tribulation?
2. Will any fear about the possibility of being present for the Great Tribulation affect our beliefs, i.e., our approach to the study of the rapture?
3. Is the reason for our beliefs to think we have a correct interpretation?
4. Rather, are our beliefs held in order to be equipped against being deceived (i.e. misled)?
5. Are our beliefs held in order to be ready for the Lord’s return (watching, being alert, praying and expectantly awaiting Jesus’ return)?

Nell
Good questions.

Having visited numerous churches post LC, 2 prominent themes emerged regarding end times events and the Great Tribulation:

There will be a Great Revival
All Christians will be Raptured

Can somebody help me find those Scripture?

Ex-LC-Rosemead

08-09-2024, 08:03 PM

Outline of Revelation
Rev. 1:1-20 – John commissioned by Jesus
Rev. 2:1-3:22— Message to the 7 churches
Ephesus
Smyrna
Pergamos
Thyatira
Sardis
Philadelphia
Laodicea.

Rev. 4:1-5; 5:1-4— Heavenly Court and 7-Sealed Scroll
Throne, 24 elders, 4 “good beasts”
Book with 7 seals
Lamb worthy to open the book

Rev. 6:1-17 – 7 Seals, Judgment
1st Seal—White horse, one of the four beasts, conquering and to conquer
2nd Seal—Red horse, second beast, take peace from the earth, kill
3rd Seal—Black horse, third beast, “a balance”, food shortage, finance?
4th Seal—Pale horse, fourth beast, death and hell
5th Seal—souls of them that were slain cry out
6th Seal—Earthquake; sun blackened, moon as blood; the great day of wrath

Rev. 7:1-17 Sealing of the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel.
9 After this, a great multitude, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 8:1-9:21 7th Seal; ½ hour silence in heaven. 7 angels given 7 trumpets. Prayers of the saints.
1st angel; hail and fire with blood; third part of trees, all green grass burnt up.
2nd angel; 3rd part of the sea became blood; 3rd part of the creatures in the sea died; 3rd part of the ships were destroyed.
3rd angel; great star from heaven fell, burning as a lamp on the 3rd part of the rivers, and the fountains of waters; star is called Wormwood: many died of the bitter waters
4th angel; 3rd part of the sun, moon stars darkened. 3 woes: Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev. 10:1-11—11:13 Seal up the things spoken by the seven thunders
Rev. 11:14-19 7th Trumpet
Rev. 12:1—14:20 12 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered.
13 Beast out of the sea.
14 The Lamb with 144,000

Rev. 13:11-18 Abomination of Desolation
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

2 Thess. 2:2-4 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Rev. 15:1—16:211 7 Bowls
Rev. 17:1-19—19:10 Judgment of Babylon the Great
Rev 19, 21. 2nd Coming

Rev 20: 7 - 9 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev. 21:9—22:5 The beast and false prophed judged.
Rev. 22:6—22:21 Final Exortation

Nell thank you for the outline here is a chart that can go with it. It has been a great help to me when I read the book of Revelations. A brother did this work back in the early 1990's. I hope it is useful to all that use it.

Nell

08-10-2024, 09:19 AM

Nell thank you for the outline here is a chart that can go with it. It has been a great help to me when I read the book of Revelations. A brother did this work back in the early 1990's. I hope it is useful to all that use it.

Thank you for the chart! BTW, where do you think we are in the Revelation timeline?

Nell

Nell

08-10-2024, 09:43 AM

Good questions.

Having visited numerous churches post LC, 2 prominent themes emerged regarding end times events and the Great Tribulation:

There will be a Great Revival
All Christians will be Raptured

Can somebody help me find those Scripture?
https://www.christianwebsite.com/what-does-the-bible-say-about-revival-in-the-last-days/

I found this collection of verses by one who offered an opinion on an alleged coming “Great Revival”. This opinion relies heavily on these verses:

“Acts 2:17-21 – Joel’s Prophecy Fulfilled at Pentecost
When the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost, Peter declared “This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people'” (Acts 2:17-18).
While Pentecost was an initial and partial fulfillment, the fullness of Joel’s prophecy will occur before Jesus’ return. This will be a time of revival marked by dreams, visions, and prophecy through the widespread outpouring of the Holy Spirit.”

I’m not sure we can take it to the bank.

Nell

Ex-LC-Rosemead

08-10-2024, 10:58 PM

Thank you for the chart! BTW, where do you think we are in the Revelation timeline?

Nell

I believe the first four seal are happening now because we can see them happening now. The 5th seal is something we can not perceive but it could be happening now. The 6th seal has not happened yet but when it does it will be perceived by everyone. And that is the Great Earthquake. And it is one like no other. It describes the stars falling unto the Earth. We know that stars don't move much. But if you consider your position on the Earth and its shaking and moving and you look up into the sky, the stars will look like they are falling or moving. That is a big earthquake! And from that shaking and moving there is going to be a lot of dust made that will blacken the sun and change the color of the moon.

So, to sum it up, I believe we are between the 5th and 6th seal today.

Ohio

08-25-2024, 08:58 PM

I believe the first four seal are happening now because we can see them happening now. The 5th seal is something we can not perceive but it could be happening now. The 6th seal has not happened yet but when it does it will be perceived by everyone. And that is the Great Earthquake. And it is one like no other. It describes the stars falling unto the Earth. We know that stars don't move much. But if you consider your position on the Earth and its shaking and moving and you look up into the sky, the stars will look like they are falling or moving. That is a big earthquake! And from that shaking and moving there is going to be a lot of dust made that will blacken the sun and change the color of the moon.
So, to sum it up, I believe we are between the 5th and 6th seal today.
Many, myself included, think that John probably saw meteors or asteroids falling to the earth, distinct from the sun and moon which he also mentioned in Rev 6.12-17. These "stars" that John saw should be literal, however, and different from the "stars" seen in 12.1 or the "star" fallen to the earth in 9.1.

Matt Anderson

08-26-2024, 08:25 AM

Good questions.

Having visited numerous churches post LC, 2 prominent themes emerged regarding end times events and the Great Tribulation:

There will be a Great Revival
All Christians will be Raptured

Can somebody help me find those Scripture?

In addition to the passages from Nell's link, I think Malachi 4:5-6 also points to an aspect of revival before Jesus' return.

I think the primary scripture for ALL christians being raptured are 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:51-52. There are other passages that refer to rapture, but they don't cover the ALL aspect. I do have one open question about the Laodiceans. In Rev 3:16, God says he is going to spit them out of His mouth. How significant is this? Does it change God's relationship to the ones spit out of His mouth to the extent that they would not be raptured?

signed lurker from the past... ;)

Ohio

08-26-2024, 09:39 AM

In addition to the passages from Nell's link, I think Malachi 4:5-6 also points to an aspect of revival before Jesus' return.

I think the primary scripture for ALL christians being raptured are 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:51-52. There are other passages that refer to rapture, but they don't cover the ALL aspect. I do have one open question about the Laodiceans. In Rev 3:16, God says he is going to spit them out of His mouth. How significant is this? Does it change God's relationship to the ones spit out of His mouth to the extent that they would not be raptured?

signed lurker from the past... ;)
Matt, I Cor 15.52 and I Th 4.15 are often joyously quoted, in fact, when I was saved 50 years ago, they were some of the very first verses I learned. That was the era of Hal Lindsey’s book “Late Great Planet Earth.”

But here’s my dilemma. These verses provide a distinct timeframe - “the Last Trumpet” is The 7th Trumpet in Revelation - for the Rapture. A perusal of Revelation provides serious “predicaments” will befall us all prior to this last Trumpet. Most Christians are (willingly?) oblivious to this, and gleefully proclaim their departure before this.

Comments?

Matt Anderson

08-26-2024, 10:04 AM

But here’s my dilemma. These verses provide a distinct timeframe - “the Last Trumpet” is The 7th Trumpet in Revelation - for the Rapture. A perusal of Revelation provides serious “predicaments” will befall us all prior to this last Trumpet. Most Christians are (willingly?) oblivious to this, and gleefully proclaim their departure before this.

Comments?

I do not believe the church evades the Great Tribulation. I also do not fully believe the "last trumpet" is the 7th trumpet in Revelation. I believe there is a last trumpet that happens AFTER the 7th trumpet in Revelation. The 7 trumpets are trumpets of a different kind (or type). The OT shows different trumpets for different purposes. One of the purposes for OT trumpet soundings is to "gather" people together. The seven trumpets recorded in Revelation are pronouncing judgment. I think Paul's reference to last trumpet comes from Isaiah 27:12-13, but I won't claim this definitively. Recall that Paul wrote about the "last trumpet" before the book of Revelation was written. Paul bases pretty much everything he shared in the NT on a revealed understanding of the OT and what he learned about Jesus Christ. So, I don't look forward to a writing that came after Paul to understand what he meant in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (referring to the "last trumpet"), but backwards to the OT.

Looking for time markers in the Bible there is only one timing for the rapture that synchronizes ALL scripture. It places the rapture at Revelation 16:15 which is pretty much a worst case scenario.

Most would argue that Revelation 16:15 is not possible because the "Wrath of God" (i.e. bowls of wrath) have already started, but I have done a thorough study on all the verses (and their Greek construction) related to the Church being saved "out of" or "from" the Wrath of God. The results are surprising and make it possible for the Church to be present on the earth, but not the target of God's wrath, all the way up to the 6th bowl, but not on the earth for the 7th bowl.

This should liven up the discussion... ;). And I know my thoughts are not even close to "orthodox" on this whole subject...

Matt

Ohio

08-26-2024, 04:00 PM

I do not believe the church evades the Great Tribulation. I also do not fully believe the "last trumpet" is the 7th trumpet in Revelation. I believe there is a last trumpet that happens AFTER the 7th trumpet in Revelation. The 7 trumpets are trumpets of a different kind (or type). The OT shows different trumpets for different purposes. One of the purposes for OT trumpet soundings is to "gather" people together. The seven trumpets recorded in Revelation are pronouncing judgment.
It seems that the 7th Trumpet is a trumpet of a different kind. The first six (Rev 8.6-9.16) were distinct events of God's judgment, but the 7th Trumpet appears to extend into the Millennium. (Rev 11.14-18)

The 7th Trumpet has both positives and negatives, eg the gatherings in chap 14, a wheat harvest of believers and a grape harvest into the winepress of the fury of God. The parable of Tares may help here since the tares could NOT be harvested until the wheat is brought into His barn (Matt 13.30)
I think Paul's reference to last trumpet comes from Isaiah 27:12-13, but I won't claim this definitively. Recall that Paul wrote about the "last trumpet" before the book of Revelation was written. Paul bases pretty much everything he shared in the NT on a revealed understanding of the OT and what he learned about Jesus Christ. So, I don't look forward to a writing that came after Paul to understand what he meant in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (referring to the "last trumpet"), but backwards to the OT.
Paul's words in 2 Thess 2 indicates he also received revelation of future events. How else could he know that the day of the Lord would not come until the Man of Sin is revealed and an identifiable apostasy of the church occurred.

Looking for time markers in the Bible there is only one timing for the rapture that synchronizes ALL scripture. It places the rapture at Revelation 16:15 which is pretty much a worst case scenario.
I see little scriptural basis that the rapture must be a single event. So many verses imply faithfulness, maturity, and watchfulness are needed.

Since the chap 14 "harvest" is called a reaping, and chap 12 mentions "firstfruits," there is much to indicate that early rapture "one is taken, one is left" is a reward for maturity.

Most would argue that Revelation 16:15 is not possible because the "Wrath of God" (i.e. bowls of wrath) have already started, but I have done a thorough study on all the verses (and their Greek construction) related to the Church being saved "out of" or "from" the Wrath of God. The results are surprising and make it possible for the Church to be present on the earth, but not the target of God's wrath, all the way up to the 6th bowl, but not on the earth for the 7th bowl.

This should liven up the discussion... ;). And I know my thoughts are not even close to "orthodox" on this whole subject...

Matt
The judgments on Egypt come to mind. Our loving Father definitely wants His children to mature, and hardships can help. Revelation speaks of both persecution by man, and judgment by God. Peter says "judgment begins in the house of God." But obviously God has wrath for those who reject His Son, take the mark of the beast, and worship the AntiChrist, or should we say "False Christ" since in so many ways this Man of Sin will establish himself as a counterfeit to the real Christ, Israel's real Messiah. He will convince much of the world that Jesus was a total failure, and he alone shall be worshiped as God.

Your comment "most would argue" kind of summarizes Revelation studies. And recently I have had quite a few. ;)

Matt Anderson

08-28-2024, 07:35 AM

It seems that the 7th Trumpet is a trumpet of a different kind. The first six (Rev 8.6-9.16) were distinct events of God's judgment, but the 7th Trumpet appears to extend into the Millennium. (Rev 11.14-18)

The 7th Trumpet has both positives and negatives, eg the gatherings in chap 14, a wheat harvest of believers and a grape harvest into the winepress of the fury of God. The parable of Tares may help here since the tares could NOT be harvested until the wheat is brought into His barn (Matt 13.30)

I am going to parse on this comment a bit later. I have a detailed expansion and explanation related to the 7th trumpet that may affect your current perception of it. (Maybe not... :) )

Paul's words in 2 Thess 2 indicates he also received revelation of future events. How else could he know that the day of the Lord would not come until the Man of Sin is revealed and an identifiable apostasy of the church occurred.

I believe both the "man of sin" and "the apostasy of the church" are revealed clearly in the Old Testament. I'll address the apostasy now and I will see if I can compress a succinct version of the man of sin in another post. So, I am sticking with the idea that there is nothing from Paul that is direct revelation from God WITHOUT OT foundation.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB95) - 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

1 Timothy 4:1–3 (NASB95)
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

I believe the expanded description of the word apostasy in 2 Th 2:3 is in 1 Tim 4:1-3. 1 Tim 4:1 says the "Spirit explicitly says". We can only take this one of two ways. The Holy Spirit gave direct revelation to Paul with no OT Scriptural foundation OR The Holy Spirit gave Paul a spiritual understanding of OT Scripture and events which ARE the "Spirit explicitly say(ing)" something about the apostasy described in 1 Ti 4:1-3.

Here it is in the Old Testament. I have this by revelation from the Lord. I asked the Lord about this verse for more than 15 years and then one day He showed it to me. Feel free to give me a hard time because I am claiming it was revealed to me by the Lord. :)

Read Numbers 25 and I will comment on verses 1 and 2 after some contextual setup.

Contextual Setup: The congregation in the wilderness is a representation of the ekklessia. 1 Cor 10, says that these ones wilderness are "types" of us. The church in this age has a start and end as a typological picture in the Old Testament. The church age STARTS by exiting from Egypt and (I believe) ENDS near the time of the destruction of Jericho. Numbers 33 gives us a full review of the journey through the wilderness. There are 40-41 stops along the way. In Numbers 33:49, we see the LAST STOP (mapping 1 Tim 4:1 - "in later times"). The LAST STOP is Abel-****tim (aka ****tim or Baal-Peor). So, in the progression of the "ekklessia in the wilderness" we have a progression from beginning to end and we have the "latter times" of this journey.

This contextual setup helps us also see how Paul could set the timing of the Day of the Lord after the man of sin is revealed and apostasy. There is more proof than just the contextual setup.

Now, let's look at Numbers 25:1-2 which tells us what happens at the LAST STOP in the journey to the promised land.

1 While Israel remained at ****tim, the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab.
2 For they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods.

There is a direct mapping between these two verses and 1 Tim 4:1

1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

paying attention to deceitful or seducing spirits --> play the harlot with the daughters of Moab
paying attention to doctrines of demons --> invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods

The mapping to doctrines of demons may seem obscure. The children of Israel were supposed to eat the manna from heaven. This is a picture of spiritual food we partake of now. So, "meat sacrificed to idols" is a picture of spiritual food from the wrong source which are "doctrines of demons". For me, this means the apostasy is already in full swing and increasing right now.

There is more to say, but I will stop there. This leaves the "man of sin" as unaddressed.

I see little scriptural basis that the rapture must be a single event. So many verses imply faithfulness, maturity, and watchfulness are needed.

Since the chap 14 "harvest" is called a reaping, and chap 12 mentions "firstfruits," there is much to indicate that early rapture "one is taken, one is left" is a reward for maturity.

I see one primary basis for the rapture as a single event. However, I also see that there will be a lot of martyrdom during the Great Tribulation. Martyrdom is not "the rapture", but it can be seen as the way that some leave the Great Tribulation earlier. I know this is an ugly view, but it is what I have considered to be able to account for Rev 7:9-17 as happening before a single event rapture.

My primary basis for the rapture as a single event is 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:52 and John 6:39-54. 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:52 both indicate the dead rise FIRST and then those who are alive and remain are raptured. This pushes the idea of rapture until after this first resurrection of the dead and these verses say ALL who are alive and remain will be raptured.

John 6:39-54 anchors this first resurrection of the dead "on the last day".

I understand what you are saying about first fruits and I agree that the ones who are taken up to the throne are firstfruits. (Do you link the Rev 12 - male child to the Rev 7 & 14 - 144k)

So, I do leave open the idea of two phases of rapture, but in general I do not think there is a "progressive" rapture. It seems there may be just two chunks with the rapture described in 1 Th 4:15, 1 Cor 15:51-52 as being after the first resurrection which happens near the end of the Great Tribulation.

Comments?

Note: all my thinking on all the End Times stuff is based on tearing down everything I learned from others in the past and then just reading for 20+ years and various things emerged throughout the process as I asked questions of the Lord and He answered a little here, a little there.

Matt

Ohio

09-02-2024, 03:11 PM

I believe both the "man of sin" and "the apostasy of the church" are revealed clearly in the Old Testament. I'll address the apostasy now and I will see if I can compress a succinct version of the man of sin in another post. So, I am sticking with the idea that there is nothing from Paul that is direct revelation from God WITHOUT OT foundation.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB95) - 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

I believe the expanded description of the word apostasy in 2 Th 2:3 is in 1 Tim 4:1-3. 1

Matt, since I have heard and read so many untrustworthy eschatological interpretations of OT prophecy, I do not look first to the OT. It can definitely provide details, context, and foundation for Revelation prophecy, but I look to the NT first and primarily.

For example, Daniel 9 speaks of the abomination in the Temple by the Prince. Perhaps this was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes in the Maccabees, or as some Preterists claim, by Nero in the 1st Century. But since a physical Temple is mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24, Paul in 2 Thess 2, and John in Revelation 11, I have complete confidence in its literal fulfillment.

I Tim 4 does describe details of the end times, including especially the children of God. Some say this is happening now, some say this has been happening since Acts 5. Like you, I do believe the final days will bring out the worst in many.

What jumped out to me 4 years ago during Covid was that "The Apostasy" was a clearly identifiable event which will occur near in time to when the Man of Sin is clearly "revealed" to all. Prior to this, the actual character of the First Therion Beast will be hidden from most people. It seems that most of Israel will mistake him for their Messiah. (Matt 24.5)

Researching "the apostasy" led me to conclude that this is not just a deterioration of behavior, neither some political uprising, as some have translated. This will be a departure of our Christian standing, our Christian faith, a falling away from God Himself. It is a capitulation, a surrendering of our standing as Christians, a relinquishing of all that we now hold dear, due to the alternative presented by the Beast - death.

This verse 2 Thess 2.3 should be read in parallel with Revelation 13.15, otherwise it doesn't make sense. And Matt, since you prefer OT foundation, Daniel 3.14-18 comes to mind.

bearbear

09-03-2024, 08:38 PM

Researching "the apostasy" led me to conclude that this is not just a deterioration of behavior, neither some political uprising, as some have translated. This will be a departure of our Christian standing, our Christian faith, a falling away from God Himself. It is a capitulation, a surrendering of our standing as Christians, a relinquishing of all that we now hold dear, due to the alternative presented by the Beast - death.

I believe "the apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:2 could refer to the specific event of self professed Christians taking the mark of the beast in order to live, buy & sell after undergoing extraordinary pressure to do so. Through this act they are placing their faith and allegiance in the antichrist system instead of Christ.

The warning in Revelation 14:9-12 makes it clear that anyone who takes the mark is damned forever:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

The passage above ends with a call for the endurance of the saints and for them to remain faithful to Jesus just like Daniel's friends when they refused to bow down to Nebuchadnezzar's golden image at the threat of death.

It will be a time of testing to reveal who are the true and false Christians.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.