The Four Horses - Revelation 6

[Nell]

Revelation 6:1-8 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

According to Witness Lee, the opening of the seven seals occurred immediately after Christ ascended to the heavens. That is immediately after his crucifixion, his death, and his resurrection.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=2BF4
You need to search for the Life Study of Revelation.

Lee also offers the teaching that the four horses comprise the totality of world history. Historically, it is obviously accurate that war, famine and death have existed throughout history. The preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ didn’t begin immediately after his crucifixion, resurrection and ascension to the heavens. Arguably the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ began much earlier, as far back as Genesis 3:15 (15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.). in the Old Testament. That is, much earlier than “immediately after” his crucifixion, his death, and his resurrection.

“The first four seals comprise four horses with their riders in a four horse race,” with the second horse, the red horse, being war (v.4) the third horse, the black horse, famine (v5); the fourth horse, the pale horse, death (v. 8); and the first horse, the white horse, is the gospel. Lee noting that “some” believe the white horse is Christ or Antichrist. Because the second, third and fourth horses represent personifications of war, famine and death, Lee concludes that the first horse must also be a personification of the gospel and can be neither Christ or the Antichrist. What do you think? It seems to me that the gospel of Jesus Christ cannot, should not, be separated from the person of Jesus Christ.


1. My question is, just because war, famine and death have existed throughout history, is that alone confirmation that the seven seals have been opened throughout history?
2. Does the white horse conclusively represent the gospel as Lee believed?
3. Lee gave these messages on the Revelation…not sure but I’ll guess…25-30 years ago. Would he come to these same conclusions today if he were alive and could see what’s happening in the world today?
4.What other options are there for the white horse?
5. Where are we now in the "end times" timeline? Anyone?

Nell

[Robert]

Revelation 6:1-8 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

According to Witness Lee, the opening of the seven seals occurred immediately after Christ ascended to the heavens. That is immediately after his crucifixion, his death, and his resurrection.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=2BF4
You need to search for the Life Study of Revelation.

Lee also offers the teaching that the four horses comprise the totality of world history. Historically, it is obviously accurate that war, famine and death have existed throughout history. The preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ didn’t begin immediately after his crucifixion, resurrection and ascension to the heavens. Arguably the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ began much earlier, as far back as Genesis 3:15 (15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.). in the Old Testament. That is, much earlier than “immediately after” his crucifixion, his death, and his resurrection.

“The first four seals comprise four horses with their riders in a four horse race,” with the second horse, the red horse, being war (v.4) the third horse, the black horse, famine (v5); the fourth horse, the pale horse, death (v. 8); and the first horse, the white horse, is the gospel. Lee noting that “some” believe the white horse is Christ or Antichrist. Because the second, third and fourth horses represent personifications of war, famine and death, Lee concludes that the first horse must also be a personification of the gospel and can be neither Christ or the Antichrist. What do you think? It seems to me that the gospel of Jesus Christ cannot, should not, be separated from the person of Jesus Christ.


1. My question is, just because war, famine and death have existed throughout history, is that alone confirmation that the seven seals have been opened throughout history?
2. Does the white horse conclusively represent the gospel as Lee believed?
3. Lee gave these messages on the Revelation…not sure but I’ll guess…25-30 years ago. Would he come to these same conclusions today if he were alive and could see what’s happening in the world today?
4.What other options are there for the white horse?
5. Where are we now in the "end times" timeline? Anyone?

Nell

Personally:
1. I do agree with that. However wars, famine and death have existed before Christ, we see that seals opened Lamb, which was Christ. This book is prophesy telling about spiritual reality but not only.
2. Indeed this is a matter of believe. Whatever interpretation we get it will be our a matter of acceptance after any check with Bible. For now I do "buy" this interpretation.
3. What is worst now than then? What has changed?Any difference?
4. I have no idea. I was reading now few chapters before I responded. I am really under impression. I feel this burden and weight but only few verses coming...
5. Where we are now in time line? After 10.00 PM ca.
Second watch was after 10.00. Third watch was after 2.00 AM.
For sure we are after 10.00. This is full night what we have now. All saints feel this spiritual darkness. Much darker than at WL time, but it not changes perspective.
Luc 12:39
And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
Piece from 12:35 and later seems to sounds very actual in my ears.
Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning;
I see something important in difference between "day" and "hour".
I really have to spend more time on it. I feel again pushed by Lord. I am so unfaithful servant. I wanted to do this study for long time.
I hope some of You also will take a look on it.
Why Lord Jesus said once " no body know that hour" and other places "that day"?
Day is bigger period of time, but hour is more exact.
Off cours that Hour will be at certain day, but... Exactly! why?

[Robert]

P.S To last post
Mat 24:50
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

[Robert]

[B][COLOR="Sienna"]
What do you think? It seems to me that the gospel of Jesus Christ cannot, should not, be separated from the person of Jesus Christ.

Nell

I think it was not in meaning preaching gospel as personal experience ( then off course we have share Christ in gospel) but as event. The same as other symbolic horses were events, things.
As we have term "church"/ ekklesia. What is ekklesia? In general called out group of people. But each of them is individual person with his own call.

[Nell]

I think it was not in meaning preaching gospel as personal experience ( then off course we have share Christ in gospel) but as event. The same as other symbolic horses were events, things.
As we have term "church"/ ekklesia. What is ekklesia? In general called out group of people. But each of them is individual person with his own call.

Neither do I. I understand the symbolism v. Event.

Nell

[Zezima]

When it comes to revelation, I like to think that “it cannot mean for us, what it did not mean for them.”

To answer question 5, we are in the end times as much as Paul was in the end times.

[Robert]

When it comes to revelation, I like to think that “it cannot mean for us, what it did not mean for them.”

To answer question 5, we are in the end times as much as Paul was in the end times.

Well, it depends if we are sure of what we are talking about, Zezima.

If we really find real meaning of words we use, than our talk will be in objective reality.
Subjective reality is our opinion. Objective reality is more like platform where we can communicate the same way. That was as introduction- sorry for that philosophic speach.
1. What is "we"?
2. What is Time?
2'.What is "end times"?
3. Who is Paul?
4. How we can compare his point of view with our?

I am not going to give You ready answer. I just wish saints to come to Word of God as His spoken out reality in prayer.
We should not be so light ina matter of waiting for His coming.
If we take away that factor from our life, then matter of sanctification also is losing meaning.

Eph 5:17
because of this become not fools, but -- understanding what [is] the will of the Lord,
1 Tes 5:3
for when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction will come upon them, as pain in a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
John 16:19
Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
16:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
16:21
A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.
16:22
And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

Edit:
Rev 12:4
And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon standeth before the woman that is about to be delivered, that when she is delivered he may devour her child.
12:5
And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.

[Robert]

If I were a painter ( was trying) , I would paint our general situation as :
Human is question mark but God is our answer.
We were born with question "why?". "What is a purpose of my life?".
When we got answer for that becoming children of God, then we ask "how?". "How this will become?"
And even we got answer that by coming to His throne in prayer, we will ask every day " Lord, what You have for me today?".
This is our journey of asking.

[Robert]

Why I connect white horse interpreted as event of preaching gospel with pregnant woman?

Child is new creation. New creation is by sawing seed-gospel.
Like seed hidden in soil is growing to come out over the surface, we as collective spiritual child in a mother's womb, are growing in invisible way in our spirit, inner being.
I agree with interpretation given by WL that man child seems to be small by expression, but in nature is mature to rule with rode of iron.
I have no revelation to place all things in time line, but for sure gospel is preached and something is happening among saints from all groups.
I can see that because I have fellowship with some.
This is a matter of personal openness to our Lord.

That is why I see a big need to hide ourselves in Lord ( really in hidden place) and be distanced to this world. The more lion is roaring the more I look to quiet place in spirit. He is our Rock of Ages.

[Zezima]

Well, it depends if we are sure of what we are talking about, Zezima.

If we really find real meaning of words we use, than our talk will be in objective reality.
Subjective reality is our opinion. Objective reality is more like platform where we can communicate the same way. That was as introduction- sorry for that philosophic speach.
1. What is "we"?
2. What is Time?
2'.What is "end times"?
3. Who is Paul?
4. How we can compare his point of view with our?


What in the world are you talking about? The end times means when the 2nd coming occurs.

Paul was an apostle who wrote a lot of books in the Bible. Do a quick Google search, there’s a lot of resources about who Paul is. Also, Google what the New Testament is, he’s an author of that.

[Ohio]

1. My question is, just because war, famine and death have existed throughout history, is that alone confirmation that the seven seals have been opened throughout history?
2. Does the white horse conclusively represent the gospel as Lee believed?
3. Lee gave these messages on the Revelation…not sure but I’ll guess…25-30 years ago. Would he come to these same conclusions today if he were alive and could see what’s happening in the world today?
4.What other options are there for the white horse?
5. Where are we now in the "end times" timeline? Anyone?

Nell
Nell, I just recently received a Revelation Prophecy Wall Chart from a Dr. David Jeremiah, whom I barely know. (I think the free circular popped up on some FB site.) Somewhere I also have WL's Revelation Chart. Actually WL's Chart, published in 1976, is pretty good since he compiled it from numerous excellent Christian writers. Far better than Hal Lindsey's LGPE account, anyway.

This Chart lists the following:

White Horse - Conquering Power
Red Horse - War and Bloodshed
Black Horse - Famine
Pale Horse - Pestilence and Death

I think the White Horse could also be the resurrected Lamb of God, mentioned in the prior verse, crowned and conquering. Most do believe that these 4 Horses do represent a composite of human history, with the only bright spot being the Savior.

I view the Lamb of God in the heavens as timeless here, and not just from 2 Millennia ago, since OT salvation was predicated on the belief that God existed and that a Messiah would one day come. As such, the Red Horse originated when Cain slew his brother.

Where are we now? I believe during the 5th Seal, Christians are now being systematically martyred around the world, but that doesn't mean the first 4 Seals have ended, rather they are increasing in intensity, like birth pangs.

The next two major events on the horizon are the 6th Seal, an incredible earthquake, moving mountains and islands out of their places, and the building of the Temple in Jerusalem. These will be known by all. The Daniel 9.27 covenant will precede the building of the temple, but it may or may not be a public event.

[Nell]

Nell, I just recently received a Revelation Prophecy Wall Chart from a Dr. David Jeremiah, whom I barely know. (I think the free circular popped up on some FB site.) Somewhere I also have WL's Revelation Chart. Actually WL's Chart, published in 1976, is pretty good since he compiled it from numerous excellent Christian writers. Far better than Hal Lindsey's LGPE account, anyway.

This Chart lists the following:

White Horse - Conquering Power
Red Horse - War and Bloodshed
Black Horse - Famine
Pale Horse - Pestilence and Death

I think the White Horse could also be the resurrected Lamb of God, mentioned in the prior verse, crowned and conquering. Most do believe that these 4 Horses do represent a composite of human history, with the only bright spot being the Savior.

I view the Lamb of God in the heavens as timeless here, and not just from 2 Millennia ago, since OT salvation was predicated on the belief that God existed and that a Messiah would one day come. As such, the Red Horse originated when Cain slew his brother.

Where are we now? I believe during the 5th Seal, Christians are now being systematically martyred around the world, but that doesn't mean the first 4 Seals have ended, rather they are increasing in intensity, like birth pangs.

The next two major events on the horizon are the 6th Seal, an incredible earthquake, moving mountains and islands out of their places, and the building of the Temple in Jerusalem. These will be known by all. The Daniel 9.27 covenant will precede the building of the temple, but it may or may not be a public event.

Ohio,

I've seen that chart. I've read David Jeremiah off and on for a long time. I can't think of a thing that I would seriously disagree with him on, on any topic. Here's a link to download a version of it:
https://www.davidjeremiah.org/onlineprophecychart/chart

One on current events:
https://davidjeremiah.blog/connecting-bible-prophecy-and-current-events/

There is a lot out there that speculates that the white horse is either Christ or the Antichrist with some pretty decent arguments on both sides.

I'm reading through Lee's Revelation Life Studies. I'm looking for his timeline/chart. He makes his case for the white horse being the gospel pretty well.

I was actually in attendance at that Revelation training. It was a lot of excitement as I remember. I remember the common belief that Lee's Local Church would "bring the Lord back"...somehow, but I don't remember how he made his case.

Nell

[Robert]

Ohio,

I've seen that chart. I've read David Jeremiah off and on for a long time. I can't think of a thing that I would seriously disagree with him on, on any topic. Here's a link to download a version of it:
https://www.davidjeremiah.org/onlineprophecychart/chart

One on current events:
https://davidjeremiah.blog/connecting-bible-prophecy-and-current-events/

There is a lot out there that speculates that the white horse is either Christ or the Antichrist with some pretty decent arguments on both sides.

I'm reading through Lee's Revelation Life Studies. I'm looking for his timeline/chart. He makes his case for the white horse being the gospel pretty well.

I was actually in attendance at that Revelation training. It was a lot of excitement as I remember. I remember the common belief that Lee's Local Church would "bring the Lord back"...somehow, but I don't remember how he made his case.

Nell

I,ve checked that link to Jeremiah's teaching.
It sounds even better from Lee's. WL was focused on interpretation of white color. There is no word about gospel but about conquering.
What is positive in that?
And also it seems to me more logic when all four horses have negative meaning.
I am encouraged to dig more. Very interesting.

[Bible-believer]

Rev. Clarence Larkin's Tribulation Chart. Here is the link.

Rev. Clarence Larkin's chart (https://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/images/study/larkin/dispensationalTruth/c73.jpg)

[Robert]

I found another one by Clearvisionbiblestudies.com

https://clearvisionbiblestudies.com/gosey/Bible-Chart/view-large-chart.html

[Nell]

I found another one by Clearvisionbiblestudies.com

https://clearvisionbiblestudies.com/gosey/Bible-Chart/view-large-chart.html

Broken link.

[Robert]

https:// clearvisionbiblestudies.com/gosey/Bible-Chart/view-large-chart .html

I put spaces after slash and word chart.

[Timotheist]

The four horses are described in Zechariah. They have been active since "the foundation of the world", which is where the first four seals were opened, and where Christ was standing 'as having been slain'.

The white horse is not the 'gospel', or anything 'positive'. Rather, the four together administer fatal judgement on mankind, with Hades in the back gathering up the dead souls.

I believe the fifth seal marks the beginning of the Tribulation. Martyrs from that point forward do not go to Hades, but rather form the army that will return with Christ soon after that.

[HERn]

The four horses are described in Zechariah. They have been active since "the foundation of the world", which is where the first four seals were opened, and where Christ was standing 'as having been slain'.

The white horse is not the 'gospel', or anything 'positive'. Rather, the four together administer fatal judgement on mankind, with Hades in the back gathering up the dead souls.

I believe the fifth seal marks the beginning of the Tribulation. Martyrs from that point forward do not go to Hades, but rather form the army that will return with Christ soon after that.

I would like to read more about the fifth seal, can recommend some sources?

[Timotheist]

I would like to read more about the fifth seal, can recommend some sources?

Unfortunately, I have yet to find a source that I like.

The first four seals are obviously linked together. The 5th and 6th seals have one thing in common: they both discuss martyrdom, and both describe martyrs as wearing white robes.

The difference, to me, is that the 5th seal refers to martyrs who were killed before the tribulation, and the 6th to those who are killed during the tribulation.

The 5th seal martyrs are in Hades, have been waiting for a long time, and are told to wait just a little longer. The 6th seal martyrs are in heaven, having bypassed Hades. I presume that when the 5th seal martyrs are given their robes, they will also be given access to heaven, to be joined shortly by the 6th seal martyrs as they are killed.

I take it that all these martyrs dressed in white will return with Christ as His army.

[Nell]

The four horses are described in Zechariah. They have been active since "the foundation of the world", which is where the first four seals were opened, and where Christ was standing 'as having been slain'.

The white horse is not the 'gospel', or anything 'positive'. Rather, the four together administer fatal judgement on mankind, with Hades in the back gathering up the dead souls.

I believe the fifth seal marks the beginning of the Tribulation. Martyrs from that point forward do not go to Hades, but rather form the army that will return with Christ soon after that.

You seem pretty sure about your theory on the four horses. What is your source documentation or explanation for your position?

Nell

[Nell]

I would like to read more about the fifth seal, can recommend some sources?

https://wake-up.org/book-of-life-who-is-jesus/revelations-fifth-seal.html

This one is interesting.

[Timotheist]

You seem pretty sure about your theory on the four horses. What is your source documentation or explanation for your position?

Nell

Nell, a long time ago I gave up reading what others have to say. My conclusions have evolved over many years of personal research.

Of course I have been influenced by what others have said, but I do not have any favorites.

[Nell]

Nell, a long time ago I gave up reading what others have to say. My conclusions have evolved over many years of personal research.

Of course I have been influenced by what others have said, but I do not have any favorites.

If the 4 horses have been active since the foundation of the world, how will we know when the 5th seal is opened?

Nell

[Timotheist]

If the 4 horses have been active since the foundation of the world, how will we know when the 5th seal is opened?

Nell

good question.

[Nell]

White Horse - Conquering Power, gospel, Christ, Antichrist…
Red Horse - War and Bloodshed
Black Horse - Famine
Pale Horse - Pestilence and Death

All have been on the scene since the beginning times, but do these rise to the level of apocalyptic? If so, wouldn’t “things” be different? That is, the 5th seal on the verge, or clearly opened?

It appears to me that opening a prophetic seal would be more of a no-doubter, at least to many believers, that something apocalyptic was underway…

Almost every believer I’ve had discussion with believes that we are in the end times and base their belief on the current world situation and US politics and government overreach leading the way.

The main example floating around is the vaccine mandate as a precursor to people being either deceived or conditioned to voluntarily accept what could turn out to be the mark of the beast.

Please understand that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I just want to watch and pray, as we are told to do. And to “look up”. Also, clearly, we’re not in Kansas anymore.

Nell

[Ohio]

White Horse - Conquering Power, gospel, Christ, Antichrist…
Red Horse - War and Bloodshed
Black Horse - Famine
Pale Horse - Pestilence and Death

Reading Rev 6.8b, which kind of summarizes all 4 horses, it says, "And authority was given to them ... to kill ..." This may indicate that the White Horse is not positive in nature, though it seems highly doubtful that it would refer to an individual called the Antichrist. Perhaps evil leaders or generals?

Many Christians, however, view the rider of the White Horse positively. It directly follows the exaltation of the Lamb of God. The rider was crowned and went forth "conquering that he might conquer."

I suppose we'll never know for sure.

Perhaps Fanny Crosby's classic hymn was influenced by or has influenced others' thoughts:1. Conquering now and still to conquer, rideth a King in His might;
Leading the host of all the faithful into the midst of the fight;
See them with courage advancing, clad in their brilliant array,
Shouting the Name of their Leader, hear them exultingly say:

Refrain:
Not to the strong is the battle, not to the swift is the race,
Yet to the true and the faithful vict’ry is promised thro' grace.

2. Conquering now and still to conquer, who is this wonderful King?
Whence are the armies which He leadeth, while of His glory they sing?
He is our Lord and Redeemer, Savior and Monarch divine;
They are the stars that forever bright in His kingdom shall shine.

3. Conquering now and still to conquer, Jesus, Thou Ruler of all,
Thrones and their scepters all shall perish, crowns and their splendor shall fall,
Yet shall the armies Thou leadest, faithful and true to the last,
Find in Thy mansions eternal rest, when their warfare is past.

[Ohio]

And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

1. My question is, just because war, famine and death have existed throughout history, is that alone confirmation that the seven seals have been opened throughout history?
2. Does the white horse conclusively represent the gospel as Lee believed?
3. Lee gave these messages on the Revelation…not sure but I’ll guess…25-30 years ago. Would he come to these same conclusions today if he were alive and could see what’s happening in the world today?
4.What other options are there for the white horse?
5. Where are we now in the "end times" timeline? Anyone?

Nell
This phrase "over the fourth part of the earth" is troubling.

I think this phrase alone might possibly place all 4 Horsemen into the future.

[Trapped]

Almost every believer I’ve had discussion with believes that we are in the end times and base their belief on the current world situation and US politics and government overreach leading the way.

The main example floating around is the vaccine mandate as a precursor to people being either deceived or conditioned to voluntarily accept what could turn out to be the mark of the beast.

Please understand that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I just want to watch and pray, as we are told to do. And to “look up”. Also, clearly, we’re not in Kansas anymore.

Nell

In all the lead up in Revelation, I don't see anything that indicates there will be precursors or conditionings. I also do not see anything indicating those who receive the mark will be deceived into doing so, or conditioned to voluntarily accept something that turns out to be the mark (also a form of deception).

People thought social security numbers were the mark (a number, everyone has to comply), credit cards were the mark (numbers, everyone at this point needs one to function), and cell phones (numbers, follows you wherever you go, tracks your every thoughts, etc....). Now they think it's a vaccine. But that's not the mark either, or a precursor. They are fearmongering.

The way it is described in Revelation 13-14 seems like everyone will be fully aware of what is going on and makes an informed choice. You will know if you are receiving or denying the actual mark when you get it. Having the mark involves actual worship of the beast.....not "oops I didn't know what this was".

In Matthew 24, Jesus describes things that will/must happen, but regarding none of them does He say "and this is the end". He says "...but the end is still to come". I don't think we are as in the end times as people think. Beginnings of birth pangs maybe? No idea.

Also.....I too do not claim to know or be an expert. Just trying to see what the Word says about it.

Trapped

[Zezima]

Why is the USA some special indicator of the end times? Everything Jesus warned about has been happening since his ascension. It’s extremely myopic and Christian nationalist to think that because your country is now struggling, it’s the end times. Especially when famine, genocide, disease, disasters have wrecked the world for thousands of years.

[Trapped]

Why is the USA some special indicator of the end times? Everything Jesus warned about has been happening since his ascension. It’s extremely myopic and Christian nationalist to think that because your country is now struggling, it’s the end times. Especially when famine, genocide, disease, disasters have wrecked the world for thousands of years.

Totally agree with you here.

[Nell]

Why is the USA some special indicator of the end times? Everything Jesus warned about has been happening since his ascension. It’s extremely myopic and Christian nationalist to think that because your country is now struggling, it’s the end times. Especially when famine, genocide, disease, disasters have wrecked the world for thousands of years.

Snarky--

Then there's hyperopia. Farsightedness. A common vision condition in which you can see distant objects clearly, but objects nearby may be blurry.

Perhaps you didn't read my post #26 before replying.

This is a forum. We get to introduce topics and discuss our opinions freely, within the Mission Statement and Rules of the forum. You don't have to participate in any topic. If you choose to participate, it would be appreciated if you would lose the attitude, read the posts presented, and reply accordingly. Try a little courtesy and respect in your replies, whether you actually respect any of us or not.

Nell

[Ohio]

In all the lead up in Revelation, I don't see anything that indicates there will be precursors or conditionings. I also do not see anything indicating those who receive the mark will be deceived into doing so, or conditioned to voluntarily accept something that turns out to be the mark (also a form of deception).

People thought social security numbers were the mark (a number, everyone has to comply), credit cards were the mark (numbers, everyone at this point needs one to function), and cell phones (numbers, follows you wherever you go, tracks your every thoughts, etc....). Now they think it's a vaccine. But that's not the mark either, or a precursor. They are fearmongering.

The way it is described in Revelation 13-14 seems like everyone will be fully aware of what is going on and makes an informed choice. You will know if you are receiving or denying the actual mark when you get it. Having the mark involves actual worship of the beast.....not "oops I didn't know what this was".

In Matthew 24, Jesus describes things that will/must happen, but regarding none of them does He say "and this is the end". He says "...but the end is still to come". I don't think we are as in the end times as people think. Beginnings of birth pangs maybe? No idea.

Also.....I too do not claim to know or be an expert. Just trying to see what the Word says about it.

Trapped
I had to laugh when I read your comment about “everybody made an informed choice.”

Recently I read the Gospel narratives about the birth of Jesus. “Everybody made an informed choice” to travel to their city of birth to register. It was an edict from the Caesar in Rome, enforced by the Roman army. Obviously all the people thought this was a great idea!

And how many at that time thought that “the time had arrived” for His first coming? 33 years later many still had no idea, and could care less, what just happened on that cross. But, no big deal, guys were dying on crosses every day. As they say, move along folks, nothing to see here.

[Ohio]

Why is the USA some special indicator of the end times? Everything Jesus warned about has been happening since his ascension. It’s extremely myopic and Christian nationalist to think that because your country is now struggling, it’s the end times. Especially when famine, genocide, disease, disasters have wrecked the world for thousands of years.
I think Australia is leading the way here, locking people up who don’t have “proper vax papers.” That trend seems to be rapidly spreading.

By your logic, all the prophetic warning signs in Revelations should be discarded as regularly occurring events. Climate change perhaps. Or just some minor anti-American sentiment.

[Trapped]

I had to laugh when I read your comment about “everybody made an informed choice.”

Recently I read the Gospel narratives about the birth of Jesus. “Everybody made an informed choice” to travel to their city of birth to register. It was an edict from the Caesar in Rome, enforced by the Roman army. Obviously all the people thought this was a great idea!

And how many at that time thought that “the time had arrived” for His first coming? 33 years later many still had no idea, and could care less, what just happened on that cross. But, no big deal, guys were dying on crosses every day. As they say, move along folks, nothing to see here.

I'm not sure what's funny about it.....my point is people will know it's the mark when it's the mark. It won't be a scenario of "Oh wait, darn it, that thing I just got, I thought I was signing up for a credit card, or protecting myself against a disease.....you mean to tell me that was actually the mark!?!? I had no idea! Oh no!"

And Revelation 14 shows some people will not get it. They will choose not to get it.

Informed choice doesn't mean it's not under duress. But you/we/they will know what's going on, it won't be conjecture, and will have a serious choice to make.

Trapped

[Timotheist]

… and the thread is already derailed into a different subject with people sniping at each other.

Good job

[Nell]

I had to laugh when I read your comment about “everybody made an informed choice.”

Recently I read the Gospel narratives about the birth of Jesus. “Everybody made an informed choice” to travel to their city of birth to register. It was an edict from the Caesar in Rome, enforced by the Roman army. Obviously all the people thought this was a great idea!

And how many at that time thought that “the time had arrived” for His first coming? 33 years later many still had no idea, and could care less, what just happened on that cross. But, no big deal, guys were dying on crosses every day. As they say, move along folks, nothing to see here.

Ohio,

Here are some verses in Rev. 1:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Those who choose to read and hear these prophetic words and keep the things written therein are blessed. That's a good thing. I'm not going to be discouraged from reading, regardless of what others' interpretations may be, for all we actually have are interpretations of the word along with the leading and revelation of the Holy Spirit.

When verses say things like "the time is at hand", a classic argument has been...yeah...that's what's been said for 2000 years. So people go to sleep. Here's another verse:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So, is it possible that these words in Revelation, and similar statements in other places, were spoken just a couple of "days" ago?

Yet another:
Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

My own understanding is just that. My own.

Nell

[Nell]

… and the thread is already derailed into a different subject with people sniping at each other.

Good job

Is that a snipe? I think that's a snipe! Why don't you get us back on track and avoid the snipe?

Nell

[Zezima]

By your logic, all the prophetic warning signs in Revelations should be discarded as regularly occurring events. Climate change perhaps. Or just some minor anti-American sentiment.

Yes, I would argue that’s how we should view them. Revelation was written to a specific group at a specific time. John wasn’t warning the saints in 95 AD about a vaccine in 2020. Doesn’t mean the book doesn’t have lessons for us, but I’m hard pressed to think that when the USA experiences minor instability that it means the end times are now.

Witness Lee thinks that America is the last great empire that will usher in the end of the age. Lots of Christians in the recovery view that as the case, but it’s just not supported by verses and leads to idolatry. It’s not just limited to the LR, it’s a problem in the American church.

I hope this wasn’t snarky, I’m genuinely presenting an alternative view point to the idea that because America is struggling, it’s the end of the world.

[Ohio]

I'm not sure what's funny about it.....my point is people will know it's the mark when it's the mark. It won't be a scenario of "Oh wait, darn it, that thing I just got, I thought I was signing up for a credit card, or protecting myself against a disease.....you mean to tell me that was actually the mark!?!? I had no idea! Oh no!"

And Revelation 14 shows some people will not get it. They will choose not to get it.

Informed choice doesn't mean it's not under duress. But you/we/they will know what's going on, it won't be conjecture, and will have a serious choice to make.

Trapped
I tend to differ here. The "mark" will be financial. Not having the mark will make one unable to buy or sell. The "mark of the beast" here will most assuredly be connected to internet computers. Those without the mark will be unable to buy, sell, work, move around freely, and be subject to imprisonment.

Apparently you consider that everyone makes carefully weighed decisions. That's hardly the case. I've never seen such a dishonest Press, which will promote the mark unceasingly and extol its virtues, while mocking the "anti-markers." People, including Christians, do stupid things just to go along. Many "sleep" with their hands on the remote, binging on some computer screen. I am regularly shocked at the lack of any wisdom or discernment even among Christians.

I have long felt that some of those who receive the "mark" will remove it somehow after waking from their "sleep," and many of those who initially reject the "mark," will succumb to pressures and eventually take it. Today's vax mandates are not the "mark," but surely are prepping us for it.

[Ohio]

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So, is it possible that these words in Revelation, and similar statements in other places, were spoken just a couple of "days" ago?

I think Christians mistakenly counted 2 "days" from the Lord's birth, and not from His death.

[Ohio]

Is that a snipe? I think that's a snipe! Why don't you get us back on track and avoid the snipe?

Nell
I thought you got "sniped" when T rejected your positive identity of the 1st horse, i.e. the gospel. But you (and I) took it merely as another opinion attempting to understand prophecy about this thread topic.

I think "sniping" means that we refuse to consider alternate viewpoints, i.e. real discussion.

[Ohio]

Yes, I would argue that’s how we should view them. Revelation was written to a specific group at a specific time. John wasn’t warning the saints in 95 AD about a vaccine in 2020. Doesn’t mean the book doesn’t have lessons for us, but I’m hard pressed to think that when the USA experiences minor instability that it means the end times are now.

Witness Lee thinks that America is the last great empire that will usher in the end of the age. Lots of Christians in the recovery view that as the case, but it’s just not supported by verses and leads to idolatry. It’s not just limited to the LR, it’s a problem in the American church.

I hope this wasn’t snarky, I’m genuinely presenting an alternative view point to the idea that because America is struggling, it’s the end of the world.
Disregarding WL's world views (or the Blendeds,) there is a school of prophetic thought that all of Revelation was fulfilled in the 1st century. I don't happen to subscribe to that school.

I do think that the collapse of the USA is soon, and that collapse will signal the end of any freedoms which we now enjoy. I think what we are watching amounts to more than some "minor instability."

But back to the original discussion of the 1st Horseman of the Apocalypse, I admitted frankly that I am not sure what it represents.

[Timotheist]

This phrase "over the fourth part of the earth" is troubling.


I agree.

I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth. (Rev*6:8*NAU)

My question is this: is the pronoun "them" referring to Death and Hades here in v 8, and to the fourth seal in particular, or to the four horsemen. If it is the former, the term "fourth" refers to their share of the total judgement. I tend to take that point of view, but I will have to admit that my knowledge of Greek is not good enough to make the call.

The confusing part of this verse to me is the four kinds of death they deliver: sword, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts. Two of these seem to be covered by the other three horsemen, while the last two are not.

[Nell]

In all the lead up in Revelation, I don't see anything that indicates there will be precursors or conditionings.

Throuout the Bible there are scriptures on signs and "signs and wonders" of various types. I realize that this will not likely be acceptable to you as a comparison to your lack of "precursors or conditionings" in Revelation. However, just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there in one form or another. I believe there have been signs throuout history which are merciful warnings to us to "look up" and not be taken unaware.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

I also do not see anything indicating those who receive the mark will be deceived into doing so, or conditioned to voluntarily accept something that turns out to be the mark (also a form of deception).

Again, just because it's not clearly seen doesn't mean it can't happen or won't happen or is not a possibility.

People thought social security numbers were the mark (a number, everyone has to comply), credit cards were the mark (numbers, everyone at this point needs one to function), and cell phones (numbers, follows you wherever you go, tracks your every thoughts, etc....). Now they think it's a vaccine. But that's not the mark either, or a precursor. They are fearmongering.

Do you know that these items are in NO WAY a precursor to receiving the mark of the beast? Do you know for a fact that these cannot be used at some later date as the mark? Certainly we believe that SS#, credit cards, cell phones and the vaccine are not the mark, but can these items be usurped and used as the mark? Do you really know, scripturally, that a precursor to the mark of the beast or a sign is not there among us today?

There is such a thing as a "healthy fear" which is a counterpoint to what you call "fearmongering". We see in Luke 21:26 that the hearts of men fail them for fear.

The way it is described in Revelation 13-14 seems like everyone will be fully aware of what is going on and makes an informed choice. You will know if you are receiving or denying the actual mark when you get it. Having the mark involves actual worship of the beast.....not "oops I didn't know what this was".

Rev. 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
...
Rev. 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

"And he caused all ... to receive a mark..." "He" caused? Who caused? I believe this refers back to the dragon in v. 11.

If the beast "caused" all to receive a mark, that means men did not have informed consent, choosing freely and of a sound mind to receive the mark. It connotes that the beast made it happen, the beast caused all to receive a mark, without informed consent or consent of any kind.

In Matthew 24, Jesus describes things that will/must happen, but regarding none of them does He say "and this is the end". He says "...but the end is still to come". I don't think we are as in the end times as people think. Beginnings of birth pangs maybe? No idea.

Also.....I too do not claim to know or be an expert. Just trying to see what the Word says about it.

Trapped

The word has much more to say than in the Revelation. Matthew 24 and as we've seen some in Luke. Then Mark. And don't forget Daniel.

My favorite quote comes into play here "If you don't know the truth of a matter, don't form an opinion until you do know." Jesse Penn-Lewis

I don't know the truth of this matter, and it's not likely we can come to an accurate conclusion. When you say "I don't see anything" ... regarding some matter, that is not the time to form an opinion or reach a conclusion one way or another. My hope is that we can all remain neutral and keep on digging.

Nell

[Trapped]

Signs and wonders are different from what is, essentially, some kind of "pre-mark". These are two different things. The Bible says there will be things given as a sign. Things like fire from heaven that all can see. It does not indicate anything like.....things a lot like the mark but not actually the mark so people will be conditioned to getting the mark.

Saying "the Bible does not say xyz" is a legitimate observation.

Maybe I should have said it another way. "I don't see anything indicating those who receive the mark will be deceived into doing so, or conditioned to voluntarily accept something that turns out to be the mark (also a form of deception)" can also be flipped to say: "The Bible is pretty clear about first beasts and dragons and images and second beasts and the whole world following in wonder and everyone worshipping it (actual worship, not just "going along" with something) and fire from heaven as a sign that all can see, etc..." Things will be pretty crazy. Like, we ain't seen nothing yet, crazy.

Do I know that credit cards and SSN's and vax are in no way related? Well, Revelation says the mark is "the name of the beast or the number of it's name". That's it. It's the same mark (either its name or the number of its name) on everyone who complies. That doesn't line up with credit cards or SSNs or cell phone numbers. Vaccines are not taken on the forehead or on the right hand, so.......I don't know......kinda seems like not, eh? Per Ohio's point that the mark is financially related, I don't think the mark is a financial mark, unless the name of the beast is somehow financially related, but it will have an effect on what you can and can't do with your finances (buy/sell, etc).

Also, credit cards, SSNs, cell phone numbers, and even vaxxes are......not a common thing around the world. In the U.S. and wealthier countries yes, but in many other poor countries........no. Whatever it is will have to apply to all mankind.

My healthy fear is looking at what's happening, looking at what people are saying, and looking at what the Bible says will happen. If they don't match up, then it's fearmongering, because people aren't reading what the Bible says.

Regarding being "caused" to receive the mark, Revelation 13:8 indicates those who worship the beast are unbelievers......

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

.....and Revelation 14:9-12 sounds like genuine believers will not receive the mark or worship the beast (otherwise we've got genuine believers condemned to eternal destruction)....

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,
10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Those verses together are where I got that thought from. It seems like some don't worship the beast or get the mark. They choose not to.

When I say "I don't see anything", I can surely start to form an opinion or head towards a conclusion. And when I run across new information or understand old information differently, then I can adjust course. Opinions and conclusions can literally never be formed if we cannot do so until we know the truth of a matter because how can we ever be sure there is not some truth we don't know yet? We can only work with what we know at the moment.

This is all I have to say about this topic, and all I have to contribute to this thread. I'm not sure if I brought it off topic.....if so, my apologies.

Trapped

[Nell]

I thought you got "sniped" when T rejected your positive identity of the 1st horse, i.e. the gospel. But you (and I) took it merely as another opinion attempting to understand prophecy about this thread topic.

I think "sniping" means that we refuse to consider alternate viewpoints, i.e. real discussion.

Yep. :loopy:

[Zezima]

Would the readers of revelation even understand the meaning of the gospel running (white horse) in that time when the world was rome?

[Nell]

Would the readers of revelation even understand the meaning of the gospel running (white horse) in that time when the world was rome?

Good question. Maybe. Maybe not. I don’t know what the white horse signifies, but the gospel is one theory. Do you object to our discussing the possibility?

Nell

[Timotheist]

Do you object to our discussing the possibility?

Nell

This is what I mean by sniping.

It did not take me long to be discouraged by the tone of this forum and its moderators.

It has gotten worse since the last time I left, not better.

So long.

[Nell]

This is what I mean by sniping.

It did not take me long to be discouraged by the tone of this forum and its moderators.

It has gotten worse since the last time I left, not better.

So long.

Sorry to see you go, Timotheist. You have made meaningful contributions to the forum. Please forgive us for offending you.

It was an honest question with no intention of sniping. Some posts seem to do just that...object to discussing alternative possibilites. I have, I admit, done some sniping. However, that question was not intended as such.

So sorry to disappoint you and thank you for your words. Hopefully we all can take them to heart.

Nell
Member and Admin

[Nell]

Matthew 24

Of the online stuff I'm reading, most make reference to Matthew 24 in relation to the Revelation. The significance is that these are the direct words of Jesus. So I'm going to add it here as it seems to reference Revelation 6.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Note: Definition of pestilence: a contagious or infectious epidemic disease that is virulent and devastating, especially : BUBONIC PLAGUE

So...does this speak to the Revelation 6 issue of wars, famines, disease, etc., from the very beginning...i.e., the 4 horsemen, the first four seals having been opened from the beginning? Maybe. IMHO: It seems to say, “yes, there wars and rumors of wars, but … the end is not yet.” Meaning, these instances do not represent the opening of Seals 1-4. i.e., these are not the 4 horses in Revelation 6.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Verse 9 references persecution of Christians. This also has happened, to one degree or another, throughout time. ..not so much here in the US as in other remote countries. It will surely get worse. Otherwise, why the Revelation 6 prophecy regarding the opening of the Fifth Seal?

Nell
To be continued

[Nell]

Signs and wonders are different from what is, essentially, some kind of "pre-mark". These are two different things.

Maybe "foreshadow" is a better word.

Nell

[Nell]

Would the readers of revelation even understand the meaning of the gospel running (white horse) in that time when the world was rome?

Not necessarily responding to your question, but this is an excellent (I think) quote I found on https://thecomingtribulation.wordpress.com/

"In fact, virtually every prophecy in the Bible has a near-view and a far-view. A prophesy may be fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet, but it would also be fulfilled again centuries later, usually near the first or second coming of Jesus."

What do you think, Zezima? It certainly adds perspective to prophecies and somethng specific to look for...I think. In fact, context of scriptures is often overlooked as well. That is, being interpreted not paying attention to the context in which it was written.

Nell

[Ohio]

Not necessarily responding to your question, but this is an excellent (I think) quote I found on https://thecomingtribulation.wordpress.com/

"In fact, virtually every prophecy in the Bible has a near-view and a far-view. A prophesy may be fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet, but it would also be fulfilled again centuries later, usually near the first or second coming of Jesus."

Nell
I definitely endorse this view, and there are many examples in the scripture. The metaphor being a mountain range. The prophets saw the “peaks of the mountains” in the distance, but could not distinguish that some peaks were near in time, and others were much further away in time. In fact, some peaks line up, with the nearer and smaller peak hiding the bigger and more distant peak.

[Raptor]

4 horses - highlights of world history:

White: the Word of God, the testimony of Jesus
Red: war
Black: world commerce
Pale: death

[Nell]

I definitely endorse this view, and there are many examples in the scripture. The metaphor being a mountain range. The prophets saw the “peaks of the mountains” in the distance, but could not distinguish that some peaks were near in time, and others were much further away in time. In fact, some peaks line up, with the nearer and smaller peak hiding the bigger and more distant peak.

Thanks Ohio

It makes a lot of sense to me, too.

Nell

[Ohio]

4 horses - highlights of world history:

White: the Word of God, the testimony of Jesus
Red: war
Black: world commerce
Pale: death
Interesting view on the black horse. It always did seem like a "squeeze" to get "famine" as the interpretation. Perhaps inflation might also be a relevant interpretation since v.6.6 seems to imply that a sack of flour would cost a whole day's wages, which is usually the initial "side-effect" when any country decides to embrace socialism.

[Ohio]

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Note: Definition of pestilence: a contagious or infectious epidemic disease that is virulent and devastating, especially : BUBONIC PLAGUE

I used to think that all the pestilences or plagues would have a natural or supernatural source. The Bubonic plague, MERS, or E-boli being naturally occurring, and the Egyptian plagues or the 7 Trumpets being supernatural plagues. But after this recent pandemic, I'm thinking that some of these plagues might be self-induced or some combination of human/divine.

The First Bowl is a sore upon those who have the "mark of the beast." Yes, it is a "bowl" poured out on the earth, but it could also be some infection resulting from the mark. Kind of like "you reap what you sow," describing what is usually short term gain but long-term loss.

[Robert]

I used to think that all the pestilences or plagues would have a natural or supernatural source. The Bubonic plague, MERS, or E-boli being naturally occurring, and the Egyptian plagues or the 7 Trumpets being supernatural plagues. But after this recent pandemic, I'm thinking that some of these plagues might be self-induced or some combination of human/divine.

The First Bowl is a sore upon those who have the "mark of the beast." Yes, it is a "bowl" poured out on the earth, but it could also be some infection resulting from the mark. Kind of like "you reap what you sow," describing what is usually short term gain but long-term loss.

EACH VERSE IS IMPORTANT

Ex 9:14
For I will this time send all my plagues upon thy heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.

9:15
For now I had put forth my hand, and smitten thee and thy people with pestilence, and thou hadst been cut off from the earth:
9:16
but in very deed for this cause have I made thee to stand, to show thee my power, and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
9:17
As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?
9:18
Behold, to-morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the day it was founded even until now.
9:19
Now therefore send, hasten in thy cattle and all that thou hast in the field; [for] every man and beast that shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.
9:20
He that feared the word of Jehovah among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses.
9:21
And he that regarded not the word of Jehovah left his servants and his cattle in the field.
9:22
And Jehovah said unto Moses, Stretch forth thy hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt.
9:23
And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and Jehovah sent thunder and hail, and fire ran down unto the earth; and Jehovah rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
9:24
So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as had not been in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
9:25
And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.
9:26
Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail.
9:27
And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: Jehovah is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.
9:28
Entreat Jehovah; for there hath been enough of [these] mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer.
9:29
And Moses said unto him, As soon as I am gone out of the city, I will spread abroad my hands unto Jehovah; the thunders shall cease, neither shall there be any more hail; that thou mayest know that the earth is Jehovah`s.
9:30
But as for thee and thy servants, I know that ye will not yet fear Jehovah God.

As one brother noticed, book of revelation refers to all books in OT except three.
But even not coming too deep in it what we can see in plagues?
Lord warned Pharaoh about them before.
Plagues was punishment for hardened heart and rebellion against God's nation.
Re 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

Rev 18:8
Therefore in one day shall her plagues come, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire; for strong is the Lord God who judged her.

I do not think that book of Revelation is so mystical as we think.
We should more come back to rest of Bible and learn that God in OT is the same as in Revelation.
Not in general. Not " I know, I know...".
HE IS THE SAME GOD!
Can we ask if plagues in Exodus were divine or human?
Why I gave here these verses?
Except 15th and others, main point is, that if You ask 1000 people why we had tornado or hail, they will tell You because of global warm changes.
So it is not the point of interpretation but our hearing and being focused on what God is saying. Ex 9:20 is crucial.
So what we have now? Christians who are awaken and seeking for meaning and looking at God ( to them Lord will give revelation) and Christians asleep.

I do agree with rest of what You said too.

[Robert]

4 horses - highlights of world history:

White: the Word of God, the testimony of Jesus
Red: war
Black: world commerce
Pale: death

This interpretation comes from WL.
Unfortuantely he was wrong as in many other palces. Well, no body is perfect.
There is nothing at all positive and nothing indicating that it was Word of God.
All four was connected to creation as we should read.
White horse here is imitation of original. Lord Jesus will kill with Word (Sword) coming out of His mouth. Nowhere before bow is connected to Jesus or saints or overcoming.
He badly connected other verses with overcomers.
This is not difficult to see inconsistency in that interpretation.
Gospel has nothing to do wit overcoming. Jesus is knocking to the heart door and waiting... do You see here force?
So this is one of WL freestyle acrobatics.

If I can also interprate , crown is symbol of power, authority.
I risk saying that, but it can be also, that we are witnesses of first Withe Horse.
Why?
Very simple. Allover the world, saints are getting the same leading and thoughts in Holly Spirit as never before.
A lot of mature saints in many denominations agree, that we are witnessing something so much important what had never before place.
When we read about horses do not miss, that this is sudden event in time or can be short period.
Another interpretation is that it was RCC, using power, conquering nations in the name of false Christ. Why not...
But this way we have to reject chronology, because we had wars before Christ and after His resurection. So... Rather not.
But what You will say, If I say, that what we observe now is pressing nations in "white glove"?
Do You have such a saying? On one hand we fell pressure of some power, our countries authorities. But this is not war yet.
So general impression expressed in colors could be "white". Like, nothing happened! But is happening!
So I think, white horse can be now.
But I will study more.
For now I noticed one more thing, but this is just beginning. Not clear.
Fifth seal jumps to hades with saints overcomers crying to God. After fifth is come back to earth and sixth brings changes with sky and sea.
No time now but I start to sink in this book.

[Raptor]

This interpretation comes from WL.:sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep:

You don´t even know what WL said. No, that interpretation did not come from him.....

[Nell]

You don´t even know what WL said. No, that interpretation did not come from him.....

Correct. See the opening post, Robert.

Nell.

[Nell]

All--

ONE: Before we get lost in the weeds, and start going 'round and 'round in circles, I think it's helpful to determine where we are in this discussion. That is, if we stopped here, would we have covered Revelation 6?

IMHO, this is the most helpful explanation for any perceived discrepancy of thought in whether the pertinent prophecies were fulfilled from the beginning, or are yet to be fulfilled:

"In fact, virtually every prophecy in the Bible has a near-view and a far-view. A prophesy may be fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet, but it would also be fulfilled again centuries later, usually near the first or second coming of Jesus."

Next: Events of the past, as well as current events, can foreshadow the fulfillment of prophecies. For example, the mark of the beast.
Are the "known" speculations about the four horses covered?


What do you think? What's missing?

TWO: To add perspective (which I should have added in my OP), when did all this start? Where did it come from? Why did the Revelation need to be written...to clean things up?

I think it all began here:

Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it (the seed of woman...Jesus) shall bruise thy head, (the final judgment of the serpent (the Devil) and thou shalt bruise his heel (the death of Jesus on the cross actually was judgment of sin and Satan).

The curse on the serpent, pronounced in Genesis 3:14, and the enmity between the serpent (and its seed) and the woman and her seed (Jesus and his brothers...us v. 15) continues to this day. The serpent is still eatin’ dirt. This is where sin began. This is also when the judgment on the serpent, later referred to as the Devil, this is when the judgment began. The Devil met his end when Jesus died on the cross to take away our sins...which began in Gen. 3. This sentence has not yet been carried out. The book of the Revelation tells us many things about the execution of that sentence of enmity between the woman (seed of woman) and the brusing of the Serpent/Devil. (https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/how-the-serpent-became-satan/)

THREE: We have lost a valuable voice due to snarking, sniping, and mockery. We need to clean that up.

Nell

[Robert]

Nell
1.
"Arguably the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ began much earlier, as far back as Genesis 3:15 (15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.). in the Old Testament. That is, much earlier than “immediately after” his crucifixion, his death, and his resurrection."(...)

2.
It seems to me that the gospel of Jesus Christ cannot, should not, be separated from the person of Jesus Christ.(...)
3.
2. Does the white horse conclusively represent the gospel as Lee believed?"

Robert

Ok. I based on short footnotes in Recovery Bible. I was right and You was right.

Ad. Doubtfully stretched theory. Prophecy is one thing and gospel is another.

Col 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Eph 1:9
making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
1:10
unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, [I say,]



That was MYSTERY not GOSPEL.
The same now we struggle with prophecy which seems to be secret to us for a while.
So we have to keep terms and time line.
Col 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Rev 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Yes, he already prevailed Satan. Remeber, if in Gen 3.14 He was mentioned, that means that God already seen it in Future which He is over, above and through.
So, there is time line, where Satan will be terminated, but also eternity in which Jesus is ruling.
So, yes, in time line from our perspective, gospel started from His resurrection, and at that time He exposed Satan who could not overcome God.
Another thing is:
Rev 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

We should see clearly here, that this is prophecy about future. Not desription of world's history.
WL went too far in many areas and in many interpretations. If he dissappointed some... well. Do not trust man...
Bible is self explaining.
I did not put all puzzles together, but what we can do is to reject obvious mistakes with white horse and gospel.

Ad 2
As I posted before:
What Christ and gospel has to do with white horse in ch.6?
That was WL way of concluding trap.
Ad 3
For me -not.

[Robert]

All--

ONE: Before we get lost in the weeds, and start going 'round and 'round in circles, I think it's helpful to determine where we are in this discussion. That is, if we stopped here, would we have covered Revelation 6?
Nell

To be precise thread is about four horses.
Chapter 6 is about seven seals.
Many teachers and preachers touch this book now. Especially chapter 6.
I'm involved too in that subject thanks to this thread.
So If You want to extend a little to seals matter. I am ok.

[Nell]

To be precise thread is about four horses.
Chapter 6 is about seven seals.
Many teachers and preachers touch this book now. Especially chapter 6.
I'm involved too in that subject thanks to this thread.
So If You want to extend a little to seals matter. I am ok.

To be precise, the topic is about Revelation 6 - The Four Horses. If you could just please reply to this:

ONE: Before we get lost in the weeds, and start going 'round and 'round in circles, I think it's helpful to determine where we are in this discussion. That is, if we stopped here, would we have covered Revelation 6?

IMHO, this is the most helpful explanation for any perceived discrepancy of thought in whether the pertinent prophecies were fulfilled from the beginning, or are yet to be fulfilled:
"In fact, virtually every prophecy in the Bible has a near-view and a far-view. A prophesy may be fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet, but it would also be fulfilled again centuries later, usually near the first or second coming of Jesus."
Next: Events of the past, as well as current events, can foreshadow the fulfillment of prophecies. For example, the mark of the beast.
Are the "known" speculations about the four horses covered?
What do you think? What's missing?

That would be sufficient. Keep it short. Yes or No. Maybe a sentence or 2.

I’m looking for feedback from the other members too before continuing.

Nell

[Robert]

To be precise, the topic is about Revelation 6 - The Four Horses. If you could just please reply to this:


That would be sufficient. Keep it short. Yes or No. Maybe a sentence or 2.

I’m looking for feedback from the other members too before continuing.

Nell

I am glad to hear that there is chance to continue!
Yes!
If it comes to horses I do not know more and even not interested in any research. These two or free are some possibilities.

About "In fact, virtually every prophecy in the Bible has a near-view and a far-view. A prophesy may be fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet, but it would also be fulfilled again centuries later, usually near the first or second coming of Jesus." my comment is: what we can say about other prophesies?
May be time was not known to many. Bu there was certain time or facts fulfilling them.
I have to think and read and pray more.
I am closer to thought, that it will be or is,, shorter period of time than 2000 years.

[Timotheist]

THREE: We have lost a valuable voice due to snarking, sniping, and mockery. We need to clean that up.

Nell

I saw this and decided to give this one more try. I love this subject because I had some ‘a-ha’ moments last year that cleared up a lot of questions for me:


1: What do the four colors signify?

2: What do the horses in Zechariah do, and how does their function relate to the 4 seals?

3: When were or will they be opened? What does it mean that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world?

4: And the biggie question: Since the four seals are introduced to John by each of the four living creatures, what do the four faces represent and how are they tied to each of the four horsemen?

I have researched this to the point where I can provide a fairly coherent explanation that leaves me fairly convinced that I am on the right track. I will spend some time writing it up as a short article and hope to post it soon.

In the meantime, I would like to read your thoughts on these questions, the last one in particular.

[Timotheist]

THREE: We have lost a valuable voice due to snarking, sniping, and mockery. We need to clean that up.

Nell

I saw this and decided to give this one more try. I love this subject because I had some ‘a-ha’ moments last year that cleared up a lot of questions for me:


1: What do the four colors signify?

2: What do the horses in Zechariah do, and how does their function relate to the 4 seals?

3: When were or will they be opened? What does it mean that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world?

4: And the biggie question: Since the four seals are introduced to John by each of the four living creatures, what do the four faces represent and how are they tied to each of the four horsemen?

I have researched this to the point where I can provide a fairly coherent explanation that leaves me fairly convinced that I am on the right track. I will spend some time writing it up as a short article and hope to post it soon.

In the meantime, I would like to read your thoughts on these questions, the last one in particular.

[Robert]

I saw this and decided to give this one more try.

:hurray::hurray::hurray::iagree:

[Nell]

I saw this and decided to give this one more try. I love this subject because I had some ‘a-ha’ moments last year that cleared up a lot of questions for me:


1: What do the four colors signify?

2: What do the horses in Zechariah do, and how does their function relate to the 4 seals?


Thank you.

3: When were or will they be opened? What does it mean that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world?

Open the seals: Something unverified but should be kept in mind, the belief that "In fact, virtually every prophecy in the Bible has a near-view and a far-view. A prophesy may be fulfilled in the lifetime of the prophet, but it would also be fulfilled again centuries later, usually near the first or second coming of Jesus."

The foundation of the world:
John 17:24 - "loved me before the foundation of the world."
Ephesians 1:4 - "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world "
1 Peter 1:20 - "foreordained before the foundation of the world"
Revelation 13:8 - Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

"Before the foundation" vs. "from the foundation". More questions :-(.
This may link to the "time" vs. "eternity" question. In eternity there is no "before" or "after", now we see the term "from the foundation". What does that mean related to "before". (I hope I'm making sense here.)

"Before" and "after" only occur in "time". This would seemingly sync with the verse in 2 Peter 3:8, "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day." The context is pretty interesting, too.

"Before the foundation of the world" ... seems to be in eternity?

2 Peter 3:3-8 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

4: And the biggie question: Since the four seals are introduced to John by each of the four living creatures, what do the four faces represent and how are they tied to each of the four horsemen?

I have researched this to the point where I can provide a fairly coherent explanation that leaves me fairly convinced that I am on the right track. I will spend some time writing it up as a short article and hope to post it soon.

In the meantime, I would like to read your thoughts on these questions, the last one in particular.

Ohio...chime in anytime. Zezima?

Nell

[OBW]

A few questions that I have come across. (I may or may not be back soon to review further, but still worthy of consideration.)

1. Is Revelation clearly provided as some kind of roadmap to a dispensational end-of-times?

2. Are we supposed to figure it out so that we know the actual end is upon us? Is it more important to figure out what the horses, bowls, beasts, faces, etc., are, or to see that the imagery is valid today, whenever "today" is.

3. Is the purpose of the letter to provide keys to surviving the end time?

4. Is the letter alternately to keep us vigilant in our faith no matter how good or bad the times seem and no matter how near or far the end times may be from where we currently are (in time). (Don't forget that each of us has a shelf-life of much less than the time that has transpired between the writing of the letter and the return of Christ (i.e., most will face the end times as the result of a "normal" death).)

Looking back at the first post of the thread, and going where my questions hint at going, no matter who says it, I tend toward the understanding that the four horses are always ongoing. Just as there have been earthquakes, famines, pestilence, war, etc., from the beginning of recorded time, and nothing has stopped any of these no matter how much some like to think that we have "improved."

[Ohio]

1. Is Revelation clearly provided as some kind of roadmap to a dispensational end-of-times?

2. Are we supposed to figure it out so that we know the actual end is upon us?

3. Is the purpose of the letter to provide keys to surviving the end time?

4. Is the letter alternately to keep us vigilant in our faith no matter how good or bad the times seem and no matter how near or far the end times may be from where we currently are (in time).

1. Yes, just as the OT prophecy was a roadmap for the coming Messiah.

2. Yes, each of us should endeavor to prepare ourselves.

3. Yes, preparation is crucial to ours and others' survival.

4. Yes, vigilance in the faith, i.e. watching and praying, has been demanded of all God's children since Jesus ascended.

And furthermore, there is great blessing in reading and hearing the words of the prophecy, and keeping what is written in Revelations. (v.1.3)

[Nell]

1. Yes, just as the OT prophecy was a roadmap for the coming Messiah.

2. Yes, each of us should endeavor to prepare ourselves.

3. Yes, preparation is crucial to ours and others' survival.

4. Yes, vigilance in the faith, i.e. watching and praying, has been demanded of all God's children since Jesus ascended.

And furthermore, there is great blessing in reading and hearing the words of the prophecy, and keeping what is written in Revelations. (v.1.3)

Good point. You don’t have to “understand” the Revelation, but if you just read it, you will be blessed. I can do that.

Nell

[Robert]

A few questions that I have come across. (I may or may not be back soon to review further, but still worthy of consideration.)

1. Is Revelation clearly provided as some kind of roadmap to a dispensational end-of-times?

2. Are we supposed to figure it out so that we know the actual end is upon us? Is it more important to figure out what the horses, bowls, beasts, faces, etc., are, or to see that the imagery is valid today, whenever "today" is.

3. Is the purpose of the letter to provide keys to surviving the end time?

4. Is the letter alternately to keep us vigilant in our faith no matter how good or bad the times seem and no matter how near or far the end times may be from where we currently are (in time). (Don't forget that each of us has a shelf-life of much less than the time that has transpired between the writing of the letter and the return of Christ (i.e., most will face the end times as the result of a "normal" death).)

Looking back at the first post of the thread, and going where my questions hint at going, no matter who says it, I tend toward the understanding that the four horses are always ongoing. Just as there have been earthquakes, famines, pestilence, war, etc., from the beginning of recorded time, and nothing has stopped any of these no matter how much some like to think that we have "improved."

1.
Yes, sure. Jesus Himself left us instruction there. In first chapters He directed instruction and encouragement to 7 churches. This is full of meaning.
He said 7 times ( seven- nr of God's perfection) "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
Everyone is reading willingly letters to churches, but horses are more difficult?

2.
Rev 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Rev 17:9
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Col 1:9
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

3. This little piece... So just consider rest. Is it not about preparation?
Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4. Yes! Off course!
Rev 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 22:6
And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass.
22:7
And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.

[Ohio]

Good point. You don’t have to “understand” the Revelation, but if you just read it, you will be blessed. I can do that.

Nell
Very true. I have long felt that much of the prophecy may not be known ahead of time, but those who have read it will be able to recognize the fulfillment as it happens, so it's probably best not to argue over interpretations.

[Robert]

Very true. I have long felt that much of the prophecy may not be known ahead of time, but those who have read it will be able to recognize the fulfillment as it happens, so it's probably best not to argue over interpretations.

Yes, Ohio. This is exactly purpose of prophesies. Main sign of ruling God. He knows what was, what is and what is going to happen.
We can read about prophecies but only watching and praying we can cerrespond with God's plan.
But to fulfill God's plan, He also needs people who hear Him.
We had prophecies about Jesus. But there was people like Herod serving Satan and others to whom Lord could speak and fulfill plan through them.

I would summarize it this way:
We have to read and search as it states in verses from Revelation I mentioned before. But revelation comes from God.
Rev 1.1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, [even] the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John;

Rev 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

For me this thoughts exchange was not and argue but blessed time. It turned me to Revelation again.
Probably I would read it any way for many around speak about this book, but it was additional stimulus.

So far Thanks to all for their points of view and research.
If that caused our heart more awaken,then that was exactly what John was writing about- blessing.

[Timotheist]

Very true. I have long felt that much of the prophecy may not be known ahead of time, but those who have read it will be able to recognize the fulfillment as it happens, so it's probably best not to argue over interpretations.

If we extended that position to cover the entire Bible and not just Revelation, this forum would cease to exist! :):):)

[Robert]

My grand son just told me about one hero from ninjango game. Soul archer!
Very interesting where it comes from.
Demonic games so and demonic inspiration. Interesting coincidence...
I would never imagine such a name for hero...

[Ohio]

If we extended that position to cover the entire Bible and not just Revelation, this forum would cease to exist! :):):)

Since you wouldn’t dare snipe anyone else, can you explain this?

[Robert]

If we extended that position to cover the entire Bible and not just Revelation, this forum would cease to exist! :):):)

Your humor could be not understood.
Use Your patience and forgiveness and explain.
I guess it was related to second part. Last sentence?
Be careful with jokes.
May be better to keep topic.
We do not see faces and do not hear voices here. So, this way of communication is limited, Timotheist.
When I have phone call with saints in real life, my real friends, I can hear at least their tone of voice.
Do not waste time on commenting other's comments.
I did the same mistake before.
Be focus on subject. This will bring some content.

[Timotheist]

Since you wouldn’t dare snipe anyone else, can you explain this?

We do little on this forum but “argue over interpretations”. It is one of the main purposes of the forum.

Why is it better to exclude discussing Lee’s stance on prophecies?

I read your comment, and a similar one by Nell, and I find the position so illogical that I had to comment.

[Ohio]

We do little on this forum but “argue over interpretations”. It is one of the main purposes of the forum.

Why is it better to exclude discussing Lee’s stance on prophecies?

I read your comment, and a similar one by Nell, and I find the position so illogical that I had to comment.
Huh? I merely asked for clarification.

When you first joined this forum, others could converse with you. What happened to you?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nell, love to discuss topics like this, but without all the "attitude."

[Nell]

OK. This is my topic, so I'm closing it for now. It's devolving from its intended purpose. If you have a meaningful contribution, please PM me and I will reconsider.

Nell