Fearing God

[Awoken]

A person on my Facebook feed posted this rather striking quote from Witness Lee's "Life-Study of Job". I think this teaching deserves discussion, and I would especially like to hear from Lord's Recovery members/defenders of WL's theology about how they think this lines up with Scripture.

"To fear God and turn away from evil is not adequate, and actually this is not positive. The most positive thing is to express God. To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil." (Witness Lee, Life-Study of Job, Message Two)

[Sons to Glory!]

A person on my Facebook feed posted this rather striking quote from Witness Lee's "Life-Study of Job". I think this teaching deserves discussion, and I would especially like to hear from Lord's Recovery members/defenders of WL's theology about how they think this lines up with Scripture.

"To fear God and turn away from evil is not adequate, and actually this is not positive. The most positive thing is to express God. To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil." (Witness Lee, Life-Study of Job, Message Two)

As I see it, God's desire is to have a close relationship with man - as sons. So fear is not the goal, but rather love - and it is the foundation, as it should be in any good family relationship. Sons express their father. If we as sons are expressing our heavenly Father, then sin is not an issue. "Perfect love casts out all fear." In the Old Testament, the law and fear were prevalent. But this was not according to God's perfect desire. "For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law." (Gal 3:21) "But when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Cor 13:10)

Love and a close relationship with God is the goal. We may love a good earthly father, yet there is still a healthy fear, honoring and respect of them. But the point is not to dwell in the fear, but in the love which results in relationship.

[Awoken]

Hey StG - thanks for your reply. I have been meaning to get back to this but the past few days have been busy and kind of difficult, sorry.

Okay, so, funnily enough, I was reading a devotional with my better half this morning that touches on exactly this subject. And it was basically tacking the same tack that you are. The devotional quotes 1 John 4:18 ("Where God's love is, there is no fear, because God's perfect love drives out fear. It is punishment that makes a person fear, so love is not made perfect in the person who fears."). It then goes into the devotional section. The opening lines in there stuck out to me and I felt compelled correct them in fellowship with my wife, or at least voice my objection to their one-sidedness when it comes to the presentation of Biblical truth. The devo says "The Bible often speaks of the 'fear of the Lord'. This refers to a believer's reverence, respect, and awe of God, rather than the emotion of feeling afraid."

However, I would ask - where in the Bible did they get that from? Did God make a mistake when He used the word "fear"? Why wouldn't He just say reverence, respect, and awe if that is all He meant?

I think it is extremely dangerous to redefine this word to our liking, OR to just say "well God is love". Yes, God is love. Part of that love is, I suspect, instilling a healthy fear of Him and the fact that He ultimately has complete authority over EVERYTHING, including us, into us. Because we are sinners living in a sinful world in the flesh, that helps to keep us in check, helps to convict us of our wrongdoings, helps us to remember we are living in front of a just, holy, and righteous God. And this ultimately should produce more love because it makes us realize He wants to protect us from NOT having fear of Him. The Bible does not say "love of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". It says "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". I'd go so far as to say that in terms of our relationship with God, love is the beginning of GOD's side. Fear is the beginning of OUR side.

On the cross the two thieves were dying next to Jesus and the one said, "Hey! You're the Christ, aren't You? So save us!" The other guy repented (he is even called the Penitent Thief, evidently, something new Google just taught me).


Luke 23:40 But the other responded, and rebuking him, said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our crimes; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”


No, we are not supposed to dwell in fear - of earthly things, or of Satan, or of suffering, etc. Fear of the Lord is different. Proverbs 19:23, "The fear of the LORD leads to life, And he who has it will abide in satisfaction; He will not be visited with evil."

Here's a funny thing about that guy on the cross. A lot of Once-Saved-Always-Saved types use him as an example of their doctrine and say "Hey, that guy didn't do anything, and he was eternally saved! You don't need to do anything, just believe and be saved! Even if you live like a total sinner after that, well, you might get some punishment, but God CAN'T take your salvation away." I don't believe this because A) I don't believe it's ever smart to say God CAN'T do anything, and B) it does not match up to what Jesus actually taught about people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

And this is the thing about the thief on the cross - he did do something. He was suffering and dying on a cross for his sins. He did wrong and he also bled and died and suffered for it, and in the midst of that he was able to repent and believe into Christ (and believe even his own suffering was not sufficient to vindicate him - which can't be an easy belief to come by, if you're actively dying on a giant pole). That is not small. We should be thankful we're NOT dying and bleeding on a cross and we still have the opportunity to live righteously by the power of the Spirit, not using that person's testimony as an excuse to say "well, we don't need to really fear God, he loves you no matter how much evil you do".

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks for the reply! It is a balance, isn't it? If we think it's this way or that way, often we find something in the word that doesn't line-up exactly with what we think we've landed on. Let God's word be true and every man a liar!

The LC taught fearing God. That is, God would get His purpose and if we didn't go along with Him He would just crush us. Once I believed that, because of that teaching, but now I see His primary motivation toward us is His love. Does that mean no one should fear God? Of course not - those that are not regenerated should fear Him! But I'm seeing more and more that He causes all things to work together for our ultimate benefit, that is the ones who love Him. In love Christ was sent for us.

And I agree that the use of the word fear shouldn't be shied away from - it is there in the Greek even in the New Testament. I cannot completely explain how love and fear coincide, but there it is . . . He is our exceedingly great reward, and this Person can't be put in our conceptual box!

Regard the "once saved always saved" idea, there has been a lot of discussion on here about that. My personal take on it is from the standpoint of life - once the Seed of Life is implanted in us we become sons with His life and become partakers of the divine nature . . . we are reborn with a new Life. He will not un-born us. We may suffer great loss if we don't walk in Spirit and listen to His voice, but we're still ones in whom He was pleased to "reveal His Son in me."

[UntoHim]

"To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil"
Witness Lee

No, expressing God is not higher than fearing God. As a matter of fact, I would question the biblical soundness of anyone who teaches such a thing. Actually this explains a lot about Witness Lee's understanding and mindset. It explains how he could have been such a hypocrite. At the podium he appeared to be very knowledgeable and sincere, but behind the scenes he was very small, weak-minded and petty. Maybe Lee was expressing God behind the podium there in all those excruciatingly long training "messages", but he sure was not expressing God behind the scenes.

Someone who really has a genuine fear of God is not two-faced. They are the same speaking before hundreds as they are fellowshipping one on one. Those who would be a shepherd and leader among God's people should be the most God-fearing. New believers and young people do not need someone to "express God" as much as they need someone to teach them to fear God and his Word. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10) I would submit that without godly fear there is no godly wisdom. And I would highly doubt that anyone who lacks godly wisdom is expressing God. And anyone who has no godly fear surely has no fear of his Word, and would have no right or authority to be a minister of the Word. May God have mercy.
-

[Raptor]

"To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil"
Witness Lee

No, expressing God is not higher than fearing God.
-

Jesus surely was the perfect example of One that expressed God. And what did He teach as He was expressing God?

"I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!" Luke 12:4-5 ...3 times!!! And it is a warning!.

[Sons to Glory!]

Jesus surely was the perfect example of One that expressed God. And what did He teach as He was expressing God?

"I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!" Luke 12:4-5 ...3 times!!! And it is a warning!.Yes, fear is certainly there! I see this as an Old Covenant and New Covenant thing. The characteristics of the OC were law, fear and shadow. The characteristics of the NC are love, grace and reality (in Christ).

God can throw a soul into hell. Jesus sacrificed Himself to redeem us from the curse of the law. Those who haven't accepted His redemption should fear Him and the redeemed should love Him. And as is our Father ("Love"), the foundation of our NC relationship is love - yet He is God, so I suppose there is still some element of fearing Him as He is the Righteous Judge of all. But we have a wonderful Advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ the righteous, Who has imparted His righteousness to us. In fact, so much so that we are called "the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor 5:21)

Therefore, according to the New Covenant, "Perfect love casts out all fear." (1 John 4:18) In Him, where regenerated ones are, is perfect love.

Nonetheless, just to be sure we're in balance, here's a NC verse regarding fear: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who operates in you both to desire and to work for His good pleasure." (Phil 2:13) Got it all figured out yet? No, me neither . . . :D

[UntoHim]

I see this as an Old Covenant and New Covenant thing.

I see this as a matter of false teachings and correct teachings. I see this as a matter of unbiblical teachings and biblical teachings. I see this as dangerous, harmful teachings and healthy, helpful teachings. To teach people "to express God is higher than fearing God" is not only unbiblical, it is downright dangerous. The proof that it is dangerous can be readily seen in the fruit that is produced. The rotten fruit of this teaching, as well as the many other unbiblical and heretical teachings of Witness Lee, have been displayed before us in recent Local Church history.

How is it possible that a long-time elder has been found to be an unrepentant abuser of his wife and children for years, and nothing has been done. How is it possible that the "co-worker" who was supposed to be overseeing this man not only allowed the abuse to continue, he did his best to assist the wolf in attacking the innocent sheep even further. How is it possible that super-apostles (Blended Brothers) above the co-worker have interfered and bungled the situation even further by splashing all the sordid details over the internet. This is what happens when people are taught that expressing God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil. This is the fruit of the so-called ministry of the age of Mr. Witness Lee.
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[Sons to Glory!]

I see this as a matter of false teachings and correct teachings. I see this as a matter of unbiblical teachings and biblical teachings. I see this as dangerous, harmful teachings and healthy, helpful teachings. To teach people "to express God is higher than fearing God" is not only unbiblical, it is downright dangerous. The proof that it is dangerous can be readily seen in the fruit that is produced. The rotten fruit of this teaching, as well as the many other unbiblical and heretical teachings of Witness Lee, have been displayed before us in recent Local Church history. I was not talking about the expressing God aspect, but rather about the fearing God vs. loving God aspect. So maybe what you are talking about is more a question of glory. That is, WL used to teach that God's glory was basically the same as God's expression, if I remember right. Is that what you remember?

In any case, it just seemed to me that love and fear were two aspects natural to compare. Maybe, considering the threads topic, it's more appropriate to be looking at fear and glory instead . . .

[Unregistered]

Unto Him : "Someone who really has a genuine fear of God is not two-faced."

Sons to Glory "not two-faced"

Love God: "not two-faced"

Fear God: "not two-faced".

Expressed God : Definitely "not two-faced"

[UntoHim]

Witness Lee: "To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil."

UntoHim: "No, expressing God is not higher than fearing God."

Unregistered Guest: "Expressed God : Definitely 'not two-faced'."

Care to take another shot at this one? Maybe you could try to be a little less cryptic. Take your time.
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[UntoHim]

I was not talking about the expressing God aspect, but rather about the fearing God vs. loving God aspect.

Sons to Glory! I'm afraid that you are creating a false dichotomy here. Fearing God is not in any way "versus" loving God. And neither is it correct to think that fearing God is something belonging to the Old Testament/Old Creation and loving God is something belonging to the New Testament/New Creation. Witness Lee taught us that "fearing God and turning away from evil" was something of the OT/OC and we were to not worry or concern ourselves with such things. "Expressing Christ" was the mission and mandate of every Local Church saint. And the way to express Christ was "pray his word and call his name" ("We have found the way to live by Christ, pray his Word and call His Name" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg_rO61drpw&ab_channel=nothingbetween1 - ) This would not have been so bad accept for the fact that it all turned into a matter of praying the words of Witness Lee and invoking Lee's name in just about everything we read and sang. Of course this was all couched in such spiritual sounding terms such as "enjoying the Ministry!"

If the followers of Witness Lee would have spent more time in the last 50 years fearing God and his Word than "expressing Christ" though the person and work of Lee than we probably wouldn't be here dialoging on this forum today.

So maybe what you are talking about is more a question of glory. That is, WL used to teach that God's glory was basically the same as God's expression, if I remember right. Is that what you remember?
What I'm talking about is what I am talking about.:) I think you are trying to avoid what I'm talking about because it's uncomfortable for you. Let's stick with what Witness Lee said: "To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil" I have just gave a little explanation of what we were taught about expressing God in the Local Church. This is not a fringe teaching/practice in the LC - it is a bread and butter, mainstay teaching. And this teaching is not biblical or healthy or helpful. It produces rotten fruit. People who are taught that fearing God and turning away from evil is not as "high" as "expressing God" are greatly damaged and are not living and walking in truth.
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[Sons to Glory!]

UntoHim, WL certainly did teach fearing God, right? If I got any "fruit" from the Recovery, it was to fear Him - casting me into outer darkness because of poor performance. Of course, the fear that I was taught there was incorrect and skewed, because God's purpose for us is one of love primarily. The law, including the Recovery Religion, produces condemnation and fear.

The correct view is putting fear and love (and expression, etc.) in their proper perspective. It's simple: God is love, not fear.

[UntoHim]

My brother you are mixing up something of God's nature and character (love) with something that we are exhorted, taught and encouraged to do - that is fear God. We can understand and accept God's love and fear him at the very same time! In fact, we are commanded to do them both at the very same time!

What Witness Lee taught about this matter is neatly encapsulated in the quote: "To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil". A closely related teaching would be "eating from the tree of life instead of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Another false dichotomy of sorts. And another: "Get out of your mind and get into your spirit". False dichotomy.

The Bible does not teach us that we are to "express God", much less that expressing God is something higher than fearing God. Neither the Lord Jesus nor the scripture writing apostles ever taught us that we are to be "eating from the tree of life" and not "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Nowhere in the New Testament can we read about "Getting out of our mind and into our spirit". These are all manmade constructs. And the fruit of these teachings is rotten. Those who imbibe and practice them are in grave danger of having their faith shipwrecked. May God have mercy.
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[Sons to Glory!]

I actually don't disagree with 90% of what you said. However, you didn't address what I mentioned about "glory" being the expression of God, as WL taught. Did you miss that or avoid it purposely?

It would be interesting to do word searches on "fear God" and "love God" phrases in the Bible My guess is that there would be more about fearing God in the Old Testament and more about loving God in the NT. If this is correct, there's probably a reason for it.

[UntoHim]

StG!, what Witness Lee taught about glory being the expression of God is not related to the matter at hand. This is why I keep posting what Lee actually said. You keep trying to change the subject, and I'm simply not going to let you sidetrack us, because the matter at hand is so vitally important to understanding what went wrong in the Local Church of Witness Lee. I would be more than happy to address the matter of glory being the expression of God at another time and another place. (on a different day and on another thread!).

Also, it would be better for you to leave out the points about "God is love" and "loving God" and the comparing and contrasting of "fear God and love God phrases in the Bible". The matter at hand is testing whether Lee's statement that "To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil" is Biblical or unbiblical. Is it healthy, sound teaching or is it a harmful and dangerous teaching. What has object history told us about our dear brothers and sisters that imbibe and practice these things?

There are thousands upon thousands of Christians who are taught, imbibe and practice these kind of teachings in the Local Church today. There are new believers (thankfully not many) that are being invited to come and join the "Lord's Recovery" today. There are many young people who have entered the Full-Time Training and are being force-fed these kind of unbiblical, unhealthy and unsound teachings today. 2nd and 3rd generation LC members are leaving the church and think there is nowhere for them to go except to the world or to "Babylon" today. Some are stuck to stay with parents for financial reasons and simply go through the motions, and find themselves wallowing in the hopeless malaise of a dying religion today. In the Local Church women/girls/sisters are treated as second class citizens today. Some are being sexually/physically/physiologically abused today. The Blended brothers/Co-Workers are instructing the elders and "responsible ones" to "cover the brothers" who are doing the abusing today. "The Co-Workers in the Lord's Recovery in North America" are coming on the Internet and lying about current and past events and telling people that their untruths are "Shepherding Words" today.

Real people are really being hurt. Today.
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[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks for trying to clarify . . . however, we got into this particular discussion by me replying (in the 2nd post) and proposing that sons are the best expression of a father - do you agree? (this is key to understanding why I'm responding in this way)

Therefore, does our Father want His sons to first and foremost:
1. Fear Him? or
2. Have a relationship with Him?

Get the point? Do you think God was thinking, "I want to have sons so they fear Me?" Of course not! We are made in His image to have a relationship with Him, and when that which was perfect came (Christ), fear was cast out.

(And you also didn't seem to want to address the thought that WL was very big into teaching the fear of God ala performance to get into the kingdom . . . )

[Raptor]

This is the one I will esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, who trembles at My word. Isaiah 66:2.

[Sons to Glory!]

This is the one I will esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, who trembles at My word. Isaiah 66:2.Good OT verse!

So does anybody want to look into how many references of fearing God there are in the OT verses the NT? There was a significant change in the fullness of God's expression between the old and new covenants.

[aron]

... does anybody want to look into how many references of fearing God there are in the OT verses the NT? There was a significant change in the fullness of God's expression between the old and new covenants.Jesus was God's full expression, and Jesus lived in the OT world. There would not be a NT if Jesus didn't fulfill the OT.

My point is simple: Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 66. Not Watchman Nee or Witness Lee or any of their book readers.

[Trapped]

Witness Lee loved to rank things.

-A is better than B.
-C is higher than D.
-E is not adequate, but F is.

And he loved to rank things that are not mutually exclusive, and he loved to pit things against each other that shouldn't be pitted against each other. He loved to take knives to a cohesive thing and slice it up into components that there aren't benefits to dividing up that finely. This way, no one could ever rest. Everyone was always defeated and introspective and self-analytical and condemned that they, for example, feared God and turned away from evil but did not do Witness Lee's top-ranked thing of properly expressing Him.

Lee was wrong. Putting fearing God, expressing God, and turning away from evil all in a boxing ring and pitting them against each other was dumb of him to do.

People don't have kids because they want an expression of themself. They have kids because they want kids. They want to delight in something they made that is not themselves. If the kid is like the father, that's amazing, but plenty of kids are very different and opposite from their parents, and they are not a failed child as a result. "Expression" is too broad of a word to bandy around and expect that everyone has the same idea in mind when we use it. And that's another thing Lee liked - vagueness.

Only Witness Lee's delusional mind could claim that fearing God and turning away from evil IS NOT POSITIVE.

This is the paragraph from the LS of Job that the OP's quote was nestled in:

"Job 1:1 says, "There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and this man was perfect and upright, and he feared God and turned away from evil." Being perfect is related to our inner man, and being upright is related to our outer man. Furthermore, to be upright means that we are not crooked or biased.

In addition to being perfect inwardly and upright outwardly, Job feared God positively and turned away from evil negatively. However, even with the positive matter of fearing God, there is not anything that is actually positive. God did not create man merely to fear Him without doing anything wrong. The Bible tells us that God created man in His own image and after His likeness that man may express Him (Gen. 1:26). This is the most positive thing among all positive things. To fear God and turn away from evil is not adequate, and actually this is not positive. The most positive thing is to express God. To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil."

First of all, who says that being perfect is inner and being upright is outer? What?! Who says that's true? Lee? It's meaningless. Lee makes a statement that has no value to the listener and moreover, just expects everyone to just swallow it.

Secondly, I remember as a kid hearing "ABC positively, and XYZ negatively" or "ABC on the positive side" and "XYZ on the negative side", and always thought it was a strange way of putting it. Fearing God positively and turning away from evil negatively? Huh?

Also note that Lee states that Genesis 1:26 says that God created man in His own image and after His likeness (correct so far) that man may express Him -- WRONG! Genesis 1:26 doesn't say that at all. It says:

Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

I'm truly sick of Lee literally making things up as he goes. So what he's done here is make a statement that is not found in the verse he referenced, and he then uses that falsehood to make another false statement about Job that is also unsupported by the book of Job.

And frankly, once you get to Job 38, 39, 40, etc.....I would describe those chapters as all about fearing God! And Lee wants to claim that's not adequate or low in some way??

Just toss Witness Lee out. He's deceived and led astray too many people.

---------------------

StG, it is rich of you to try to pin other people down that they are avoiding things purposely or not wanting to address them....... Surely you can see the irony in that.

UntoHim can see full well what you are talking about, and he's trying to tell you that what you are talking about is an immediate digression from the OP. The owner of the forum is trying to get you to return to the OP.

[Awoken]

Rev. 15:4 "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE THEE, For Thy righteous acts have been revealed."

Well, I am not terribly interested in dredging up and doing some kind of exhaustive numerical comparison of how many verses in the OT/NT mention love vs. fear, etc. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, even forever. (Hebrews 13:8) StG!, I also think you're creating a false dichotomy. Up above there is a quote that at least suggests that glorifying the Lord's name comes as a result of fearing Him.

I don't think we could by any means say that the NT has transitioned away from exhorting (and warning) us to fear God.


1Pe 2:17 Honor all men; love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

Mt 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Re 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."

Ac 10:2 a devout man, and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the [Jewish] people, and prayed to God continually.

Ac 10:22 And they said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was [divinely] directed by a holy angel to send for you [to come] to his house and hear a message from you."

Ac 13:16 And Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand, he said, "Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:

Ac 13:26 "Brethren, sons of Abraham's family, and those among you who fear God, to us the word of this salvation is sent out.

Lu 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Ac 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

2Co 5:11 Therefore knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things [your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

2Co 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


IMHO, this idea of "expressing God" is not Biblical in the context taught by the Witness Lee. As aron mentioned, Jesus Christ already expressed God perfectly because He is God and He lived in complete obedience, even unto oneness, with His Father. There is no need for us to "express" God, there is only a need for us to behold and reflect Him in the person of Jesus. And we cannot do that with a spirit of pride. Pride darkens our understanding and prevents us from humbling ourselves and fearing God.

Exhibit A, "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess'" (Luke 18:11-12). Sounds practically just like the attitude in the LCs towards other "degraded" Christians. After my second round in the LCs, when I really started dealing with the biggest sin issues in my life as the Holy Spirit led, this condemnation towards other Christians was really what led me to realize we were all so prideful. As I've said in other threads, I couldn't stop picturing Moses in front of the burning bush (Exodus 3:5). Take off your shoes, this is holy ground. And the same thing to Joshua in Josh. 5:15. This is the kind of attitude we weren't cultivating in the presence of the Spirit of God. Not only were our shoes not off in the LCs as we tromped around shouting slogans (braying like wanton donkeys, maybe? I think there's a reference like that in the OT somewhere). We were also practically frolicking outright in front of our golden calf, namely the "glorious ministry of Brother Lee and Brother Nee". Just tune into the latest stuff coming out of Anaheim and I'm sure you'll see the same spirit of harlotry on open display -

Exhibit B, Paul walking down the road to Damascus feeling pretty great about his religious zealousness and persecution of Christians. When the light came he fell down on his face and, after finding out the identity of God was the Jesus who he was persecuting, asked trembling and astonished what the will of God for him was.

[JJ]

One of the problems with Witness Lee’s use to the term “expressing God” is that it never seemed to have an objective check-in on what that looks like.
Jesus Christ is the ultimate one who expresses God. When we see Him we see the Father. When the Father works He works. The three gospels as well as other writings of the apostles record what that looked like, still looks like, and will look like including in Jesus’ life, death, and glorification, in the lives of the apostles, and in the revelation of the testimony of Jesus in Revelation. That is our ultimate check-in, and it is truly humbling.
Acts 10:38 says: “Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him” -American Standard Version.
Even all scripture that God breathed “is useful is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 – New International Version
Where are the good works of “The Lord’s Recovery”?

[Sons to Glory!]

I am continually amazed at what an ineffective communicator I can often be - seriously! I think what I've shared here is just so spot on, but that's evidently only in my own eyes. It is frustrating, isn't it, trying to get a point across and speaking past each other, as often seems to happen on here? It is a human trait that each of us tends to think we are communicating oh-so effectively. The unseen things of the realm of faith are not so easy to communicate, and some of you think I am deliberately trying to derail this topic . . . certainly not my intent at all. I see what I see, but according to the responses I'm getting, I evidently am not communicating it very well.

Rather than beating this thing further, let every man be convinced in his own mind! (and I ask forgiveness if you think this is simply a cop-out, but I see little profit in expending more effort in trying to clarify these things. shalom)

[Nell]

I am continually amazed at what an ineffective communicator I can often be - seriously! I think what I've shared here is just so spot on, but that's evidently only in my own eyes. It is frustrating, isn't it, trying to get a point across and speaking past each other, as often seems to happen on here? It is a human trait that each of us tends to think we are communicating oh-so effectively. The unseen things of the realm of faith are not so easy to communicate, and some of you think I am deliberately trying to derail this topic . . . certainly not my intent at all. I see what I see, but according to the responses I'm getting, I evidently am not communicating it very well.

Rather than beating this thing further, let every man be convinced in his own mind! (and I ask forgiveness if you think this is simply a cop-out, but I see little profit in expending more effort in trying to clarify these things. shalom)

Here we go again. I am continually amazed too.

Perhaps you should consider that the problem isn't your "communication skills" but instead, the problem is your message. Also, another problem, you're not listening.

Your message bears the remnants of the failed "ministry" of Witness Lee. You repeat the same failed message, over and over, and yet you expect a different result. Those who reply to your messaging offer scriptural evidence to the contrary and you show no signs of listening. I believe you call this "talking past each other". You use your flowery Lee-isms to talk past those who address your message. Why does this continually amaze you?

You are communicating, but your message is being rejected. Maybe you should listen to the voice of others and perhaps reconsider your message.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Here we go again. I am continually amazed too.

Perhaps you should consider that the problem isn't your "communication skills" but instead, the problem is your message. Also, another problem, you're not listening.

Your message bears the remnants of the failed "ministry" of Witness Lee. You repeat the same failed message, over and over, and yet you expect a different result. Those who reply to your messaging offer scriptural evidence to the contrary and you show no signs of listening. I believe you call this "talking past each other". You use your flowery Lee-isms to talk past those who address your message. Why does this continually amaze you?

You are communicating, but your message is being rejected. Maybe you should listen to the voice of others and perhaps reconsider your message.

NellYou have categorized me so adroitly . . .

Consider this: Is it any wonder more pro-WL/LC don't post on here sister? I think not. If I, who am not a strong WL/LC defender by any means (in fact, have repeatedly pointed out numerous things I don't agree with in that ministry), are addressed in this manner, few who are actually pro-WL/LC would care to experience this.

I have a lot I could say on the topic of the thread, with a myriad of scripture references (trust me on this), but my experience here is it does little good and I therefore see no profit in pursuing it. We are all convinced of something, and that's fine. Only the Lord can shine light and break through strongholds in me and you. May He do just that, where it needs to be done.

But least we get too caught-up in this kind of interaction, we are truly just children playing in the sand box here - love you in Christ sis!

[UntoHim]

Sons to Glory!

I don't think Nell is categorizing you personally, rather she is reacting to the actual words you have posted.

And speaking of categorizing. No, my brother, there is not much wonder why more current Local Church members post here - they are taught to fear man and the religion of the Local Church of Witness Lee more than God. Benson Phillip has taught them that if you leave their little sect you will become spiritually bankrupt and there will be no sanctification in your life. They are also taught to not communicate with former LC members because we are poisoned and to have any contact with us is to touch death. THIS is the main reason why more LC members don't post here, and not because we are categorizing people.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Sons to Glory!

I don't think Nell is categorizing you personally, rather she is reacting to the actual words you have posted.

And speaking of categorizing. No, my brother, there is not much wonder why more current Local Church members post here - they are taught to fear man and the religion of the Local Church of Witness Lee more than God. Benson Phillip has taught them that if you leave their little sect you will become spiritually bankrupt and there will be no sanctification in your life. They are also taught to not communicate with former LC members because we are poisoned and to have any contact with us is to touch death. THIS is the main reason why more LC members don't post here, and not because we are categorizing people.
-Okay, I acknowledge that. Thanks for clarifying. Shalom & love

[Nell]

You have categorized me so adroitly . . .

Consider this: Is it any wonder more pro-WL/LC don't post on here sister? I think not. If I, who am not a strong WL/LC defender by any means (in fact, have repeatedly pointed out numerous things I don't agree with in that ministry), are addressed in this manner, few who are actually pro-WL/LC would care to experience this.

I have a lot I could say on the topic of the thread, with a myriad of scripture references (trust me on this), but my experience here is it does little good and I therefore see no profit in pursuing it. We are all convinced of something, and that's fine. Only the Lord can shine light and break through strongholds in me and you. May He do just that, where it needs to be done.

But least we get too caught-up in this kind of interaction, we are truly just children playing in the sand box here - love you in Christ sis!

Oh that’s rich. You’re changing the subject.

[aron]

A person on my Facebook feed posted this rather striking quote from Witness Lee's "Life-Study of Job". I think this teaching deserves discussion, and I would especially like to hear from Lord's Recovery members/defenders of WL's theology about how they think this lines up with Scripture.

"To fear God and turn away from evil is not adequate, and actually this is not positive. The most positive thing is to express God. To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil." (Witness Lee, Life-Study of Job, Message Two)

Deuteronomy 17:18-20 "And it shall be, when he [the King] sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:

And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand or the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel." (KJV)

17:19 says to "read therein.. fear.. keep.. do" Psalms 1 and 2 form a coherent pair showing that the "read-fear-keep-do" Deut 17 King was Jesus the Nazarene. Psalm 1 shows a man who reads and follows God's word scrupulously. Psalm 2 has this Obedient Man installed as the Anointed King, the Eternal Son of God, and who's Ruler of the kings of the earth. From this composite OT picture we see portrayed before us Jesus the Son of David, who read the law, feared God and kept the law (Matt 4:4), fulfilled the law (Luke 24:44; Gal 4:4) and fully expressed God. Because he obeyed, he therefore expressed God perfectly ("when you see me, you see the Father"), and the Father raised him to glory (cf Psa 18:20-24). Jesus is our King High Priest, perfected forever, who always lives to intercede for us. When we read Deuteronomy 17, Psalms 1 and 2, we have this composite picture before us, that shows our King in the gospels, in the epistle to the Hebrews, in Paul's letters.

WL said that Deuteronomy 17 was LC elders on the local ground who enjoyed RecV and footnotes, Psalm 1 was vain because, "nobody can obey God", and Psalm 2 was of course Jesus, because NT citations make that unavoidably clear. WL presented an incoherent exegetical stew if you ask me. Those three chapters rather show that Jesus feared God his Father and obeyed God's commands, and thereby expressed God. Jesus was and forever remains the Incarnate Word. Our faith is in him, in his holy fear, his obedience, his expression. Did WL express God when he kept PL in charge after his wrong-doing, and the threat to church members was exposed? No, and I'm probably no better. Jesus is the One who expressed God. Look to him, and live. Any other considerations are vain.

[Raptor]

This is a post from a Kathy Buskett, on Quora responding to this question:

Why do scriptures say to "fear" the Lord? Why would we fear a loving and merciful God and Father?

Paul explains that we fear our earthly fathers by giving them the respect they are due and that BECAUSE they are loving, they correct us. Similarly our Heavenly Father is to be respected. He is always working everything out for the highest good and unlike us He always knows what that is. And, Paul continues in his analogy, if God doesn’t correct us, it’s because we’re illegitimate sons and not actually sons of faith.

now I know he’s talking about correction in this passage however it’s also true about respecting and fearing God.

proverbs says that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. The opposite is also true - if you have no fear of God you have no wisdom - and no real relationship with God. And if God isn’t correcting you and instead you’re excusing yourself and your sin, then you’d better fear and examine yourself to see if you’re really in the faith.

hell is serious business. Salvation is serious business. It’s not something to be trifled with. Yet in America I see professing Christians often trivializing the consequences of sin, dabbling in sin they should never be dabbling in, yet still professing to be Christian. this is dragging the name of God through the mud snd explains a lot of the politics that have gone on in America the last four or five years.

why do professing Christians not only sin, but endorse a poster child for vice? Why? I’ve asked myself. Thank you for this question because it helped me come to the answer. It’s ultimately Because they have no real fear of God.

But Why? I’ve also studied to figure this out - how have we gotten here? I believe it’s Because for the last fifty or more years they’ve taken out hell from the gospel. They say a loving God wouldn’t send people to hell. They’re afraid it will offend and turn people off. So they just take it out! Which the Bible itself forbids.

Unfortunately now as a result we have a plethora of people who claim to be Christians worshipping a false God they have made up in their heads. A God who winks at sin, who is all love all the time and who Never ever corrects. This false god allows them to continue in their sin. And it all stems from a lack of the fear of God.

If they genuinely feared God this wouldn’t be happening. God made the universe. He holds it in his hand. Jesus says God continues to work and in him we live and move and have our being. Everything that has breath he controls and not a sparrow drops to the ground without his knowing it. He is all mighty all knowing and all holy. He is mighty and wise beyond our comprehension. We SHOULD fear and resoect someone so powerful, righteous and holy.

And yet so loving that he cares for each member of his creation individually.

we take his sacrifice of his own sons lifeboood in vain when we refuse him or when we continue to walk in sin but pretend to know him.

and that is the ultimate lack of the fear of God.
that I believe is the main sin in our age. If we had a true fear of God (and we don’t) none of the other sins so prevalent today would exist. People do the horrible things they do because they don’t really believe in God (even most Christians I talk to don’t actually believe) and therefore they have no fear of god or of hell. Outsiders think it’s a fairy tale. Insiders have never seen the true power of God (though it’s available if they would walk in the spirit and the holiness that Jesus requires) and therefore they have no real respect for God. If you ever really experience Him, you’ll be changed forever like I was and never take him for granted again.

Jesus himself commanded that we fear the One who has the power to cast both body and soul into hell.

JESUS says that. Is that shocking to you? Is any of this disgusting to you? Then you don’t know and don’t really believe the Bible. Most of what I’ve said here was pulled from various Bible verses. It’s all biblical. But people don’t know Jesus, don’t know the one true God, and love their sin instead of loving God. They’d rather continue in it than repent.

repentance is the essence of the gospel. But those who have no fear of God have even tried to redefine what that means. It means to TURN from your sin in faith to God. And In fear of him, which will produce humility.

which is very very lacking today. mid even venture to say you can know who fears God and who doesn’t by the fruit of humility. And by the lack thereof.

[Awoken]

Wow. That is an awesome post Raptor. Thank you for sharing.

[OBW]

Another missed thread that has more promise than was given. But before I start on it, I will look at a sidebar that occurred between Nell and StG. I know that I gave her some push-back the other day in a different context, but she is right here.

One of the important issues with a forum discussion is sticking to the topic. I admit that sometimes a discussion results in another point, term, etc., coming up that is not defined or agreed upon. But other than that, posting something not on topic is generally frowned upon. And if it is done constantly it can become construed as an attempt to derail the actual topic. So off-subject or irrelevant (to the topic) conversations not actually spawned by the topic are not welcome. And disagreeing about something is not necessarily a spiritual problem that needs a "why can't we just get along" kind of pick-me-up to make us realize that we shouldn't disagree and just drop the discussion. Not saying that you (StG) are trying to do that. But if two or more want to discuss a particular subject, trying to steer them away from it is not helpful (at best) and technically subject to some kind of censure (at worst). So despite my disagreement with Nell in that other thread, she is spot on here. And maybe even rather generous. And that generosity might be the underlying reason for the heat you got these last few days.

Maybe (in my opinion) Nell picked the wrong instance to actually take you to task (this past few days). But the evidence is that she is generally right. Disruptive, not on topic posts might be accepted occasionally as a kind of humor. But once the frequency increases, and is multiple times within a single thread, your posts, no matter how much you don't intend to disrupt the discussion, will do exactly that. I would say that including references to the content of your posts (repetitions of Leeisms and favoritism to old-school LC stuff — even if you don't actually realize it is Leeisms) might be a misdirection from ensuring that you understand the nature of the "crime," but it is, nonetheless, a "crime."

Now, to the topic.

I see this kind of statement from Lee as just more detailed evidence of his lack of qualification as any kind of Christian teacher. He was too often laser-focused on a particular passage and then insisted that anything that wandered into that realm of "truth" was ruled by this one instance. Sort of an extension of his insistence on "always speaking the same thing."

(My intent with this opening is to potentially broaden this topic into an example of a rather common error in Lee's teaching and rhetoric.)

Examples of this kind of thinking include those who want to trot out "God is love" and then have to reject anything that might be punishment because they cannot understand that most statements in the bible have contexts. They are seldom one-size-fits-all edicts. "God never changes" is another. And it is true in a context. In his nature, he is not fickle. He does not shift from benevolent to tyrant. But he clearly can change his mind. There is a record of his consideration that he might have been wrong to create mankind. And it took Moses some serious pleading to talk him down from destroying the entire camp and starting over with Moses as a stand-in for Abraham. While neither may have been quite as clear as that, God changed his mind. And we benefit from it.

My point is that when it comes to various commands relating to our Christian walk, unless there is a stated hierarchy among them we should take each one of them as important and relevant. And this one particular example — fear God and turn away from evil v express God — is a false dichotomy. I would suggest that in making this one statement, he has effectively insinuated that any other thinking or activity is "negative." Being righteous is negative, only express God. Trying to love your neighbor is negative, only express God.

But what is it to express God? What is the image of God we were created to express? Seems that righteousness is front and center. And righteousness is an opposite of evil. So turning away from evil must be part of righteousness which is a centerpiece of the image of God. We also see love of God and neighbor, justice (care for widow, orphan, alien), etc., as the commandments. Even the verse saying that "the truth will set you free" is predicated upon obedience, not isolated, stand-alone truth.

We do not express God by refusing activity and works. By going to meetings and talking in the highest lexicon of spiritual phrases (if you say it better it is better). By laying claim to better propositions and a better name for your assembly.

No. We express God in our living. In our walk. In our poor efforts to "reckon ourselves dead." To act — even to act and fall short — is better than nothing. Failure to act is the only real problem. And meetings are nothing. Your quiet time is nothing. There is no image of God in either of those. They may be important to your success at expressing, but without the doing, there is no expression. If the Christian life was a Jedi thing, Yoda would be wrong. Trying is everything. If you don't try, you will never do. Failing (in our own eyes) at any level is not evidence you shouldn't have tried. It is evidence that God is working in you because you have the will to try. Set your mind on the Spirit (not your spirit, whatever that would mean) and walk according to that Spirit.

So expressing God is very important. And that requires that we fear God and turn from evil. And a lot of other things Lee dismissed in his various either/or false dichotomies.

[aron]

And this one particular example — fear God and turn away from evil v express God — is a false dichotomy. I would suggest that in making this one statement, he has effectively insinuated that any other thinking or activity is "negative." Being righteous is negative, only express God. Trying to love your neighbor is negative, only express God.

But what is it to express God? What is the image of God we were created to express? Seems that righteousness is front and center. And righteousness is an opposite of evil. So turning away from evil must be part of righteousness which is a centerpiece of the image of God. We also see love of God and neighbor, justice (care for widow, orphan, alien), etc., as the commandments. Even the verse saying that "the truth will set you free" is predicated upon obedience, not isolated, stand-alone truth...

So expressing God is very important. And that requires that we fear God and turn from evil. And a lot of other things Lee dismissed in his various either/or false dichotomies.
It's a false dichotomy because it ignores the centerpiece of the Bible: Jesus. In the Lee dichotomy, we're either feeble sinners, wallowing in sin or vainly trying to be good, or else we're "enjoying the processed Triune God on the local ground by the exercise of our regenerated human spirit". Or some such hifalutin verbiage. So to Lee fearing God belongs to the first realm, and expressing God is in the second.

He created these fake arbitrary bins, and shoveled everything into one or the other. In the first was Christianity, waiting to die and go to heaven, trying to be good, religion, concepts, opinions. In the second was all the supposedly divine and mystical stuff he and Nee had uncovered and restored.

But Lee misses the King: Jesus Christ is consistently presented as in continual obedience and expression. Jesus feared no man - neither Herod nor Pilate nor Ananias. No Roman soldier cowed him. Jesus only lived in reverential awe of the Father. His 'food' was to do the will of the Father (not, ahem, to shout repetitively).

Jesus was the Obedient Lamb of God, and we the disobedient see him, repent, confess, and live. Only through his obedience do we find our path, our Way. But Lee missed all this in his push for subjective experience, so-called enjoyment, and so-called expression. Yet I contend that when one sees Jesus, there is found the Fear of God personified, the Expression [Logos] of the Father made utterly full. To me, there's nothing else to see. When you see Jesus, you effectively see the Father. You see Home.

When they saw this glory they fell down, non-functional. The three disciples on the holy mountain, and later John alone on Patmos realized this awful singularity. Yet it was not their falling down that they remembered, most. It was the glory.

"And we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten Son of the Father" ~John 1:14
"For He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to Him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we ourselves heard this voice from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. We also have the word of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt. And you'll do well to pay attention to it.." ~ 2 Peter 1:17-19