Poor, poor Christianity... [Archive] - Local Church Discussions

Drake

04-29-2018, 06:53 PM

Brother Lee is criticized in this forum because he assessed that the situation in Christianity was lacking and fell short in their practices and teachings according to the Bible... what he often termed “poor, poor Christianity”. The problem is that his critics fail to acknowledge that many Christian teachers and the doctrine and practices they teach in Christianity are poor, often pitifully poor. Christianity casts a wide net and embraces the orthodox and the heretical, the fundamental and the bizarre, the lovers of Christ and and nominal Christians. For Christianity to be assessed as poor does not mean it needs to be poor 100%. The country I live in is considered to be a mess not only by outsiders but by many of its own citizens. Yet, not every one is a mess, some are trying to fix the mess. However, there is enough of a mess that it is accurate to say it is a mess. In the same manner Christianity is poor because there is enough critical mass to assess it so.

This thread is to discuss poor poor Christianity and to allow forum members to discuss whether Brother Lee’s characterization is accurate in specific instances instead of the broad brush generalizations used to criticize him for saying it.

Drake

Drake

04-29-2018, 06:57 PM

Ohio

05-01-2018, 06:23 AM

Brother Lee is criticized in this forum because he assessed that the situation in Christianity was lacking and fell short in their practices and teachings according to the Bible... what he often termed “poor, poor Christianity”. The problem is that his critics fail to acknowledge that many Christian teachers and the doctrine and practices they teach in Christianity are poor, often pitifully poor.

This forum was developed to assess the situation, past and present, in the Local Church Movement (LCM) because it has fallen so short of the practices and teachings of the Bible. While many have characterized the system, especially at LSM, as a cult, I would not do that and rather describe the system as an aberrant sect full of extra-biblical teachings and practices in the form of "leaven hidden in the lump." This forum is filled with the descriptions of these errors.

What the critics of Witness Lee, the Blendeds, and the LCM do recognize is that there does remain many precious children of God there. Unfortunately they remain in a poor, often pitifully poor, system exalting the person and writings of a man, Witness Lee. They are really "Leeites" but would rather condemn the entire body of Christ than see their own degraded condition. Their condition, complete with a long history of self-preserving lawsuits, is no different than that at Corinth.

leastofthese

05-01-2018, 07:11 AM

Ohio

05-01-2018, 07:18 AM

Witness Lee had a regular practice, especially in huge trainings broadcast across the world, of comparing the worst of all Christianity with the best of the LCM. Lee often did this after some young brother or sister gave a refreshing testimony. The comparison is completely bogus and self-serving.

Point one finger at others and three more are aimed in return.

Ohio

05-01-2018, 11:08 AM

This is the first and a current example of poor poor Christianity. I do not think anyone who holds orthodox views could disagree.

http://www.wnd.com/2018/04/pastor-defends-conducting-beyonce-mass/

I would call this pitifully poor. No one can defend it. Yet observe the adoring crowd!

Drake
No one is defending this idolatry. This occurred in San Francisco, not exactly a city rich in Christian heritage. Some have likened it to Sodom and Gomorrah. I have been there and I can understand why.

But I think you are being completely disingenuous by connecting this pathetic scene to Christianity. This is right out of the WL playbook -- identifying the entire body of Christ (outside the LCM) with the most despicable of things. It's called mudslinging, and it's pathetic, and I lived with it for 30 years in the LCM.

If you want to establish a little credibility on this forum, you might want to "consider your ways."

countmeworthy

05-01-2018, 11:31 AM

It is known that when a person or people put other people down, they are puffing themselves up.

Lee and Nee may have exposed the dead works of the Christian religion and denominations but Lee especially boasted they were not in poor, poor, Christianity. He loved putting Christianity down. I get it. I know the denominations all came out of the RCC..and it was never God's plan we meet in 'church buildings'. Jesus as a Jew did preach to the Jews in the synagogue but most of the time He preached and taught by the wayside, in people's homes, by the mountainside, in the streets, by the seashore. The saints in Acts gathered in the upper room once or twice but most of the time they were meeting in homes, in the streets etc.

We are instructed to build up the body of Christ, that includes those true believers not in the LSM. But Lee built up his denomination, his 'kingdom'.

Remember what happened to Ephesus.. The angel said:

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, you have left your first love.

The crusades supposedly believed the RCC was the 'one true church'.. and thus they began criticizing, then persecuting and then murdering Jews and Gentile who would not convert to their 'church'.

The Love for Jesus, for the Body of Christ has been replaced with the love for Lee's teachings. Anyone following a different ministry aside from Lee, is looked down upon. Shoots, an LSMr is not allowed to get revelation from the Holy Spirit. They have to go to the footnotes and Lee's books for understanding. And guess what? Lee did not have everything right! So when a person is shown a revelation of what the scriptures say through the Holy Spirit, that is not in alignment with Lee's views, it is not received.

(For the record, not every 'revelation' is from God, the Holy Spirit. So I am careful to say that a person sometimes thinks they are getting insight and revelation from God in the scriptures when they are not always. They read the scriptures to fit their thinking, their desires.)

One reason I left the LC is because it was no longer 'CHRIST and the church'.. It became Lee and the church, Lee and the LSM..

The Presence of God, the Anointing of the Holy Spirit left my locality around 1977.

That said, many, many true believers have been leaving the man made 'church'. Much of the 'church' at large has become apostate. There is no meat, no anointing, no Life, no LOVE, no real fellowship. The Blood of Jesus is just a dead doctrine.

So people are leaving in droves. They are meeting in homes, fellowshipping on the phone, through email and wherever the Holy Spirit leads them. (of course, many are so discouraged and disillusioned by the dead works in the 'church' they are going back into the world, forsaking their faith in Christ..if they had it to begin with. Maybe they were simply church goers but never were filled with the Word of God, Jesus and His Holy Spirit.)

But many are studying the Word of God on their own through the insight and revelation of the Holy Spirit. The letter kills but the Spirit gives Life.

not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. Corinthians 3:-6

Btw, as a reminder.. the NT really begins with the death of Jesus.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Hebrews 9:16-17

Thus we are only able ministers of the NT because of the shed Blood of Jesus in our lives. His Precious Blood purges our consciences from dead works to serve the Living God.

Peace to all in Christ Jesus

Drake

05-01-2018, 07:44 PM

How many verses in Scripture speak to not judging your neighbor? Yet the LSM has built this as a foundation and, as such, this mentality is deeply imbedded in the LSM culture. On the contrary, how many verses speak to loving your neighbor? Hopefully leaders of these ministry “churches” can focus more on the latter, their world would so much more joyful, free, and peaceful.

The further away you get from the LSM churches and the closer you get to Christ and His Church, the more clearly you feel saddened for the spirit of confusion and chains of the LSM. I wonder if the Pharisees also talked to Jesus about “Poor, poor Christianity”?

Where is the churchofbeyoncediscussions.org? Maybe you can take this thread there.

LofT,

Not sure where you land on this one. It is clearly idolatry.

The Episcopal church has been on a slide for awhile. Two years ago the Anglican church suspended association for similar reasons.

https://goodnewsmag.org/2016/01/anglican-communion-suspends-the-episcopal-church-in-the-u-s/

Is this a case of poor poor Christianity? I believe so.

Drake

leastofthese

05-01-2018, 09:17 PM

LofT,

Not sure where you land on this one. It is clearly idolatry.

The Episcopal church has been on a slide for awhile. Two years ago the Anglican church suspended association for similar reasons.

https://goodnewsmag.org/2016/01/anglican-communion-suspends-the-episcopal-church-in-the-u-s/

Is this a case of poor poor Christianity? I believe so.

Drake

Hey man, if you’re called to go out to the ends of the earth proclaiming examples of poor, poor, Christianity - I’m not going to stop you. But I won’t be a part of it. I’m sure we could spend all year coming up with new links.

Unregistered

05-02-2018, 12:10 AM

Drake

05-02-2018, 07:22 AM

Hey man, if you’re called to go out to the ends of the earth proclaiming examples of poor, poor, Christianity - I’m not going to stop you. But I won’t be a part of it. I’m sure we could spend all year coming up with new links.

LofT,

Ends of the earth? No brother, just here in this forum where Brother Lee is criticized for saying it.

Are Christians to be indifferent about these matters? I don’t believe so. Is the Lord Himself indifferent?

Drake

Kevin

05-02-2018, 07:31 AM

LofT,

Ends of the earth? No brother, just here in this forum where Brother Lee is criticized for saying it.

Are Christians to be indifferent about these matters? I don’t believe so. Is the Lord Himself indifferent?

Drake

Poor, poor Witness Lee and his cohorts for they think they are rich and lack of nothing. :thumbsdown:

Drake

05-02-2018, 07:55 AM

Poor, poor Witness Lee and his cohorts for they think they are rich and lack of nothing. :thumbsdown:

I don t think that.... at all.

Would not even bring these up except Brother Lee is criticized for it.

What do you think about that Beyoncé worship?

Drake

Ohio

05-02-2018, 08:27 AM

I don t think that.... at all.

Would not even bring these up except Brother Lee is criticized for it.

What do you think about that Beyoncé worship?

Drake
Understanding you and the nature of this forum, there are two reasons why you would bring up this ridiculous Beyonce worship:

You secretly admire Beyonce, and desire to bring the rest of the forum members into your lust for her Jezebel idolatry
You desire to distract our attention from your life long exaltation of Witness Lee, his life, and his teachings

Now which is it? We need to know! You know what to do. Tell us right now.

Drake

05-02-2018, 10:49 AM

Understanding you and the nature of this forum, there are two reasons why you would bring up this ridiculous Beyonce worship:

You secretly admire Beyonce, and desire to bring the rest of the forum members into your lust for her Jezebel idolatry
You desire to distract our attention from your life long exaltation of Witness Lee, his life, and his teachings

Now which is it? We need to know! You know what to do. Tell us right now.

There it is again.... button pushing.....

.....toxic.

DistantStar

05-02-2018, 12:43 PM

Christianity casts a wide net and embraces the orthodox and the heretical, the fundamental and the bizarre, the lovers of Christ and and nominal Christians.

It is not fair to say that Christianity embraces the heretical. That's a contradiction in terms. A religion cannot embrace heretical doctrine. It might be possible for "Christianity" in the popular sense, which is perhaps the sense in which he meant it, but this is not the case in the theological sense. It would be like Trinitarians embracing modalism, or squares embracing triangles.

The problem is not so much a case of imperfection. I don't think anyone today or going back to the disciples will claim that the Church is perfect or that Christians are perfect. Paul saying "Wretched man that I am" comes to mind here.

The problem comes when one person claims to have THE PERFECT answer, and tries to distinguish himself from "Christianity". That is dangerous and borderline cultic.

Ohio

05-02-2018, 01:25 PM

There it is again.... button pushing.....

.....toxic.
No it's you who are TOXIC. You started this contemptuous thread.

You used one idolatrous and obnoxious event in SanFran to characterize all of Christianity -- the entire body of Christ -- as "Poor, Poor, Christianity."

Talk about a snobby, self-righteous -- priggish -- know-it-all characterization of Christians! Take a look in the mirror friend.

Who are you to categorically condemn the entire body of Christ, all professing Christians, aka the body of Christ, the house of God, the temple of the Holy Spirit?

But you take license from W. Lee. He did it regularly, in fact he built his ministry -- a ministry of condemnation -- on his regular diatribes of "poor, poor Christianity."

Evangelical

05-02-2018, 03:49 PM

This is the first and a current example of poor poor Christianity. I do not think anyone who holds orthodox views could disagree.

http://www.wnd.com/2018/04/pastor-defends-conducting-beyonce-mass/

I would call this pitifully poor. No one can defend it. Yet observe the adoring crowd!

Drake

That's right, preach it. Even though some are obviously blinded to the mass degradation, those of us who came out of her see clearer.

Even though including Beyonce is sacrilegious, it gets worse, in my opinion and touches on spiritual matters beyond the outward signs of degradation such as gay marriage and female ordination.

There is also multi-faith meetings, meditation sessions, clergy members who also function as psychics, and free masonry is rife. Basically it is spiritualism and deism not Christianity.

Evangelical

05-02-2018, 04:07 PM

A number of things jump out of this interesting article about Beyonce in worship.

The article mentions that the service was about the social philosophy of the pop star:

More than 900 people came to the celebration of the “traditional” service using the music and social philosophy of the pop star

After digging around on Google I found that the social philosophy of Beyonce is to "do whatever she wants to do".

This is validated by the Priest's statement:

"“I believe in Beyoncé because she reminds us you have to do things your way.”

That's right Priest, do what you want to do, maybe next time a bit of "I did it my way" Sinatra.

“I know there are people who will say using Beyoncé is just a cheap way of trying to get people in the church,”

Sure seems like it:

"More than 900 people came to the celebration of the “traditional” service using the music and social philosophy of the pop star. Normal evening services draw about 50."

"“When we talk about womanist biblical interpretation, Beyoncé felt like a natural fit" - there's that old feminist agenda again, interpreting the bible based on what's between one's legs.

“I’ve been asked time and time again, ‘Why Beyoncé?'” Norton told parishioners, “I believe in Beyoncé because she reminds us you have to do things your way.” - so not God's way? interesting.

“Our goal is to have a worship experience that honors the fact that we’re all created in the image of God.”

"worship experience" - entertain the masses, give em something they won't forget, get them coming back for more (900 - 50 = 850 new church members to retain)

"that honors the fact that we’re all created in the image of God." - so Beyonce is the image of God?

Here she is, looking a lot like the goddess of the sun, or is it Oh Mother Mary, is that you? In Asia, if someone dresses like that and stands on a mountain, 100,000 Catholics and buddhists will come to worship.

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/images/people/beyonce-performs.jpg

Ohio

05-02-2018, 05:36 PM

It's shameful even to think about how obsessed you and Drake are with Beyonce worship. You brothers should rise up out of the gutter and do something useful.

leastofthese

05-02-2018, 06:08 PM

LofT,

Ends of the earth? No brother, just here in this forum where Brother Lee is criticized for saying it.

Are Christians to be indifferent about these matters? I don’t believe so. Is the Lord Himself indifferent?

Drake

I think we are coming from two very different places Drake, based on your questions we're not on the same page or you're intentionally trying to manipulate the conversation. I'll assume the prior.

Evangelical

05-02-2018, 08:19 PM

It's shameful even to think about how obsessed you and Drake are with Beyonce worship. You brothers should rise up out of the gutter and do something useful.

This is serious. Adele called her Jesus Christ and worships her:

“How is it even possible that she only ever gets better? How is that possible? She is Jesus **** Christ,” Adele said.

Matt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/adele-compares-beyonce-to-jesus-christ-claims-to-worship-pop-icon-after-hearing-lemonade-163497/

Drake

05-02-2018, 09:55 PM

No it's you who are TOXIC. You started this contemptuous thread.

You used one idolatrous and obnoxious event in SanFran to characterize all of Christianity -- the entire body of Christ -- as "Poor, Poor, Christianity."

Talk about a snobby, self-righteous -- priggish -- know-it-all characterization of Christians! Take a look in the mirror friend.

Who are you to categorically condemn the entire body of Christ, all professing Christians, aka the body of Christ, the house of God, the temple of the Holy Spirit?

But you take license from W. Lee. He did it regularly, in fact he built his ministry -- a ministry of condemnation -- on his regular diatribes of "poor, poor Christianity."

Toxic. Button pushing.

Drake

05-02-2018, 10:07 PM

That's right, preach it. Even though some are obviously blinded to the mass degradation, those of us who came out of her see clearer.

Even though including Beyonce is sacrilegious, it gets worse, in my opinion and touches on spiritual matters beyond the outward signs of degradation such as gay marriage and female ordination.

There is also multi-faith meetings, meditation sessions, clergy members who also function as psychics, and free masonry is rife. Basically it is spiritualism and deism not Christianity.

It is really sad.

The hatred for Brother Lee is evident by the responses to this thread. Rather than acknowledge the awful setting up of Beyoncé in the worship, something that is only reserved for the Lord, detractors are making excuses for it! Instead attacking Brother Lee for rightly calling such stuff poor poor Christianity.

Even the Anglican Church refused to tolerate it any longer.

Drake

Drake

05-02-2018, 10:09 PM

This is serious. Adele called her Jesus Christ and worships her:

“How is it even possible that she only ever gets better? How is that possible? She is Jesus **** Christ,” Adele said.

Matt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/adele-compares-beyonce-to-jesus-christ-claims-to-worship-pop-icon-after-hearing-lemonade-163497/

It is so clear. No Christian should make excuses for this.

Drake

Drake

05-02-2018, 10:24 PM

It is not fair to say that Christianity embraces the heretical. That's a contradiction in terms. A religion cannot embrace heretical doctrine. It might be possible for "Christianity" in the popular sense, which is perhaps the sense in which he meant it, but this is not the case in the theological sense. It would be like Trinitarians embracing modalism, or squares embracing triangles.

The problem is not so much a case of imperfection. I don't think anyone today or going back to the disciples will claim that the Church is perfect or that Christians are perfect. Paul saying "Wretched man that I am" comes to mind here.

The problem comes when one person claims to have THE PERFECT answer, and tries to distinguish himself from "Christianity". That is dangerous and borderline cultic.

DistantStar,

I believe that it is generally accepted that Christianity encompasses a broad set of Christian groups. But I’ll go along with your train of thought as pertains to this thread because when Brother Lee characterized poor poor Christianity I do not think he really had heretical groups in mind. However, I never considered the Episcopalians being heretical. Did you?

Drake

Trapped

05-03-2018, 12:29 AM

Hi Drake,

I think this is a worthy thread topic.

However, the article you provided as a talking point was clearly only written to begin with because it reports on an extreme, abnormal, and repulsive event that is not representative of Christianity. If this kind of situation were at all prevalent in Christianity, it would not be considered “newsworthy” and there would be no article to begin with.

Internet comment sections underneath news articles these days are generally a collection of anti-God sentiments, but even the comments in this article are those of disgust, revile, and sadness. Those in Christianity (poor and otherwise) want nothing to do with this type of gathering, except the severely misguided particular group of attendants (whose number does not even equal 1% of Christians in the U.S. – I am not speaking of Episcopalians in sum, just those attending the event described in the article) who are from, as Ohio pointed out, San Francisco……

Do you have another example you could provide that is more representative of mainstream Christianity?

Trapped

Drake

05-03-2018, 02:59 AM

UntoHim

05-03-2018, 06:53 AM

So Drake, Do you hate Anglicans or Episcopalians?
-

Drake

05-03-2018, 07:17 AM

So Drake, Do you hate Anglicans or Episcopalians?
-

UntoHim,

No.

But if I did hate someone I would probably rail against them openly. You would definitely know it because I would use derogatory terms like “snobby, priggish, “etc. I would reacte to them with personal insults. Hate is a powerful emotion that drives people to do and say things that leaves civility behind.

Stuff like that.

I can’t imagine hate driving me to the extent that I would accuse the object of my hate of saying things he didn’t. But apparently some people cast off all restraint and express hate even to that extent. I’ve seen this and then they justify that hatred by wrapping it in scripture. It is incompatible with being a Christian so something has to be done to cover it up.

Why do you ask?

Drake

Ohio

05-03-2018, 08:18 AM

UntoHim,

No.

But if I did hate someone I would probably rail against them openly.

You would definitely know it because I would use derogatory terms like “snobby, priggish, “etc. I would reacte to them with personal insults. Hate is a powerful emotion that drives people to do and say things that leaves civility behind.

Stuff like that.

I can’t imagine hate driving me to the extent that I would accuse the object of my hate of saying things he didn’t. But apparently some people cast off all restraint and express hate even to that extent. I’ve seen this and then they justify that hatred by wrapping it in scripture. It is incompatible with being a Christian so something has to be done to cover it up.

Why do you ask?

Drake
You and LSM have been railing openly against all Christianity for decades.

Why limit your hatred to just the Episcopalians?

Drake

05-03-2018, 08:35 AM

You and LSM have been railing openly against all Christianity for decades.

Why limit your hatred to just the Episcopalians?

UntoHim,

There is what I mean.

Good example of accusing someone of saying something that they didn’t.

Drake

Ohio

05-03-2018, 09:28 AM

UntoHim,

There is what I mean.

Good example of accusing someone of saying something that they didn’t.

Drake
Did you not start this thread lambasting all of Christianity using some pathetic event in SanFran to characterize the entire body of Christ? Then Evangelical chimed in unison. Did you not bear false witness against all of your brothers when you opened this post?

Or am I mistaken? Are there two ducks in the house?

Trapped

05-03-2018, 10:30 AM

Hi Trapped,

The second link (Anglican) is another example not related directly to the first (Beyoncé) article.

Thanks
Drake

Hi Drake,

Thanks for pointing that second link out; I missed it the first time around.

It is so interesting to me how different people can read the same thing and come to completely different conclusions. Upon reading it my immediate response was that that article is a great example of Christianity not being poor. I'm not saying that Christianity is 100% healthy without any problems. All I mean here is this seems to be a positive example of Christianity.

Even a healthy human body produces cancer cells. What determines whether the body remains healthy or degrades into a poor condition is whether or not it takes steps to eliminate those cancer cells and keep them from spreading. This article is an example of Christianity having a healthy immune system (or "having a Biblical backbone" as one of the comments said) and recognizing some cancerous non-Biblical actions within itself and taking the steps to help ensure that the cancer cells do not spread. It seems to me that is a healthy thing.

Could you explain what about you felt about the article that supports a poor Christianity viewpoint? Is it that Christianity had to suspend some from within? That happens in the recovery too. Is it that it led to a rift or a division? That also happens in the local churches. At the end of the article the author even states (of the aberrant group) that " It is also likely to become a more isolated and much smaller denomination as well", indicating that this is not representative of Christianity as a whole.

Do you have another example you could provide for discussion?

Trapped

DistantStar

05-03-2018, 10:54 AM

I believe that it is generally accepted that Christianity encompasses a broad set of Christian groups. But I’ll go along with your train of thought as pertains to this thread because when Brother Lee characterized poor poor Christianity I do not think he really had heretical groups in mind. However, I never considered the Episcopalians being heretical. Did you?

Perhaps he didn't, but the quote I quoted said that Christianity embraces heresy. That's just nonsensical. Embracing a number of denominations is not the same as embracing heresy. To know what is heresy, you first have to know what is core doctrine. None of the denominations explicitly deny any of these. And as I said, if they do then they are not "Christian denominations" but heretical groups. This is not a "true scotsman" thing. It is simply not Christian, despite what they claim.

But whether Lee had heretical groups in mind, I'll leave you with this:

It is not a matter of the doctrine of the Trinity or of the teaching concerning the local church. It is absolutely a matter of Babylon. To call a pastor “reverend”—that is Babylonian. To set up a Christmas tree and to honor Santa Claus— that is Babylonian. To call yourself by a denominational name, such as Lutheran, Methodist, or Episcopalian—that is Babylonian. All denominational names are Babylonian factors of division and confusion. When Christians see the destruction of the great prostitute at the hands of Antichrist, they will be convinced about the church. Then they will see what the church is and where the church is. They will realize that the church has nothing to do with anything Babylonian. Any group that still practices Babylonian things or holds them is not the pure church.

Isn't he basically saying that all of Christianity (all except the LC of course) is not the "pure Church" and Babylonian. Actually he proves my point. He said "the church has nothing to do with anything Babylonian". He, too, understood that the Church simply cannot contain the heretical and (in his view) the denominations, being Babylon, simply isn't the Church. The problem is with him considering the denominations not part of the true church and thus heretical.

Ohio

05-03-2018, 11:09 AM

Poor, poor Witness Lee and his cohorts for they think they are rich and lack of nothing. :thumbsdown:

I don't think that .... at all. Would not even bring these up except Brother Lee is criticized for it.

What do you think about that Beyoncé worship? -- Drake
Here we get to the heart of the problem -- Witness Lee did it, so Drake is fully justified in his own mind to do the same.

My contention is that those with LSM who have been trained by WL over the years have a damaged conscience regarding other Christians. It is very similar to a parent teaching his children that racism is right, hence young children grow up believing that Blacks, Jews, or in my case Pollocks, etc. are inferior people.

Drake has no problem condemning and denigrating all of Christianity, the entire body of Christ outside the LCM, for the sole reason that WL taught him too. We see the same attitudes in Evangelical and all other LSM supporters who grace this forum. And let me be painfully honest here -- I, Ohio, once held these same attitudes towards Christianity -- until I left the system and got to know other Christians. It was part of my detox program as a recovering judgaholic.

Let me make this real plain: Witness Lee trained us wrongly. Witness Lee was a bad pattern to the church. Witness Lee's attitudes towards other Christians was pathetic, and needs to be exposed. He taught us that he was better, that he was the best, that no other minister could compare to him. He taught us that all others were worse, were degraded, pitiful, hopeless, "poor poor Christianity."

Just like Drake did when he titled this thread.

Witness Lee would find the most salacious of stories to characterize the rest of the body of Christ. He would constantly compare his best to their worst. (But don't say a word about his sons Philip and Timothy and what he did to other men of God who spoke up against their sins.)

Just like how Drake picked up on this Beyonce story to once again condemn "poor, poor ..."

UntoHim

05-03-2018, 11:49 AM

So Drake, Do you hate Anglicans or Episcopalians?
-

No.
But if I did hate someone I would probably rail against them openly. You would definitely know it because I would use derogatory terms like “snobby, priggish, “etc. I would reacte to them with personal insults. Hate is a powerful emotion that drives people to do and say things that leaves civility behind.

Just a "No" would have sufficed. Frankly, the rest of your answer sounds more like O.J. Simpson's "If I Did It" than a simple, honest answer. Of course my inquiring was not totally innocent. I had a suspicion it would prick your conscience, and force you to play defense on your on your own "attack Christianity" thread. Easy pickins...shootin fish in a barrel.

Your original thesis in the OP is so faulty and full of holes that it's hard to know where to begin. In fact, you actually found a way to debunk your own claim while making the claim itself! I mean, who painted with a broader brush than Witness Lee? Whose critiques were any more misinformed and decidedly ignorant than Brother LǐChángshòu? And the red letter example of his sheer lack of awareness and stark unenlightenment is his infamous declaration "poor, poor Christianity". And to be sure, Lee NEVER, EVER made the kind of distinctions that our friend Drake is trying to make us swallow here. The context of Witness's claims were always thrown out with the widest net one could possible imagine. Any claim to the contrary is just self-serving revisionist history.
-

aron

05-03-2018, 04:34 PM

Brother Lee is criticized in this forum because he assessed that the situation in Christianity was lacking and fell short in their practices and teachings according to the Bible... what he often termed “poor, poor Christianity”.

I see two related issues. First, address the assertion "Christianity is lacking", and second, if Christianity is "too poor", as I remember WL putting it, is his ministry somehow exempt? Or is it also too poor? Maybe even the worst?

1. We can always find a Westboro Baptist Church or Church of Beyonce to castigate, but are these representative of the greater mass, or not? How to objectively assess Christanity?

My own way has been to go back in time. In the 4th century with the so-called 'robber council' at Chalcedon I see a Christianity that had wholly and completely lost it's way, and in no wise collectively represented the gospel message of Peter, James, Paul, and John.

Bitter in-fighting over meanings of Greek words that today, if you ask the particulars (EOC and OOC), they just collectively shrug and say, its complicated.

And it got worse. In some ways there has been a struggle to revive the gospel, but overall it is a mess. To put it simply, yes it is lacking.

2. Is there really a "rich ministry of Witness Lee" (yes that's the term they use) or is it also impoverished? I would say, impoverished. The local churches affiliated with the LSM are a spiritual gulag archipelago, a string of impoverished assemblies where believers are afraid to think or listen for the Shepherd's voice. If Witness Lee didn't say it, it doesn't exist. And if he did, that's supposedly God's oracle.

It is a wasteland, barely Christian.

Somehow Watchman Nee was able to read 3,000 Christian classics, so-called, but today they as Nee's heirs advise to only read one publication? What a farce. What if some elders in an LSM-affiliated local church decided to preach on Sunday morning from some other ministry? Or - gasp - just from the Bible? How long do you think it would take for Anaheim to hear? Two hours? Four?

And I'm not addressing the practices, merely the teachings - One Publication Policy shows how thoroughly Babylonian in thinking this group is. The practices are exponentially worse. Not even "barely Christian", but rather "the way of the nations". Matt 20:25, Lording over one another. Shameful.

Evangelical

05-03-2018, 04:36 PM

Did you not start this thread lambasting all of Christianity using some pathetic event in SanFran to characterize the entire body of Christ? Then Evangelical chimed in unison. Did you not bear false witness against all of your brothers when you opened this post?

Or am I mistaken? Are there two ducks in the house?

"hate the sin, love the sinner"

In the OP Drake already clarified that he did not mean the whole of Christianity is poor. So he is not "characterizing the entire body of Christ" and not speaking about "all of your brothers". For example, I don't believe Drake had anyone on this forum in mind, probably there are no Bey worshippers here.

But are you a secret Bey worshipper Ohio? Is that why you feel Drake is condemning you when he condemns Beyonce worship? Are you humming the tune of Halo "I can feel your halo (halo) halo .. "when you read the Bible?

Ohio

05-03-2018, 06:22 PM

"hate the sin, love the sinner"

Physician heal thyself.

This is merely an empty, feel good saying in the LCM.

Drake

05-03-2018, 06:32 PM

Hi Drake,

Thanks for pointing that second link out; I missed it the first time around.

It is so interesting to me how different people can read the same thing and come to completely different conclusions. Upon reading it my immediate response was that that article is a great example of Christianity not being poor. I'm not saying that Christianity is 100% healthy without any problems. All I mean here is this seems to be a positive example of Christianity.

Even a healthy human body produces cancer cells. What determines whether the body remains healthy or degrades into a poor condition is whether or not it takes steps to eliminate those cancer cells and keep them from spreading. This article is an example of Christianity having a healthy immune system (or "having a Biblical backbone" as one of the comments said) and recognizing some cancerous non-Biblical actions within itself and taking the steps to help ensure that the cancer cells do not spread. It seems to me that is a healthy thing.

Could you explain what about you felt about the article that supports a poor Christianity viewpoint? Is it that Christianity had to suspend some from within? That happens in the recovery too. Is it that it led to a rift or a division? That also happens in the local churches. At the end of the article the author even states (of the aberrant group) that " It is also likely to become a more isolated and much smaller denomination as well", indicating that this is not representative of Christianity as a whole.

Do you have another example you could provide for discussion?

Trapped

Hi Trapped,

I wasn’t criticizing the Anglican Church for taking action. I was pointing out that for different reasons even they could not tolerate the Episcopal Church beliefs and practices (not related to the Beyoncé worship issue)

Drake

Kevin

05-03-2018, 10:48 PM

I don t think that.... at all.

Even you don't think that it is, but it is what many saints thought here! You and Evangelical are not on the same thinking from the rest of the majority. I have witnessed here such gross attitude.

byHismercy

05-04-2018, 02:15 AM

aron

05-04-2018, 03:58 AM

Our hope is only and entirely in Christ Jesus. .
Amen to that. The gospel is about Jesus Christ. Paul said, "We do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus". . .contrast that to those who speak of the church, the ground, the ministry, the vision of the age &c.

I can prove that LC is brain-dead because when they sing hymns from poor, poor Christianity suddenly it is their "goodly heritage".

I can prove that WL teaching is crude and amateurish by pointing to RecV footnotes on Psalms. The best a WL advocate on this forum can do is reply, perhaps it is so. To which I say, perhaps it is not so, and note that in captive LSM assemblies no one ever is allowed to say that perhaps it is not as WL taught.

I can prove that LSM is blatantly self-serving by noting that the One Publication Policy came from a publishing house. Church leaders are employees of the publishing house, which sells ministry materials to church members! Conflict of interest, much?

The LC is a poster child for poor, poor Christianity.

leastofthese

05-04-2018, 06:43 AM

Aron- during your time in the LSM churches, you heard many denigrate Christianity. Did you ever hear anyone state a single thing WL said or did that was in error? If so, what was it?

Drake

05-04-2018, 06:51 AM

Even you don't think that it is, but it is what many saints thought here! You and Evangelical are not on the same thinking from the rest of the majority. I have witnessed here such gross attitude.

Ok, but what do you think of the Beyonce worship?

Ohio

05-04-2018, 06:56 AM

Amen to that. The gospel is about Jesus Christ. Paul said, "We do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus". . .contrast that to those who speak of the church, the ground, the ministry, the vision of the age &c.

I can prove that LC is brain-dead because when they sing hymns from poor, poor Christianity suddenly it is their "goodly heritage".

I can prove that WL teaching is crude and amateurish by pointing to RecV footnotes on Psalms. The best a WL advocate on this forum can do is reply, perhaps it is so. To which I say, perhaps it is not so, and note that in captive LSM assemblies no one ever is allowed to say that perhaps it is not as WL taught.

I can prove that LSM is blatantly self-serving by noting that the One Publication Policy came from a publishing house. Church leaders are employees of the publishing house, which sells ministry materials to church members! Conflict of interest, much?

The LC is a poster child for poor, poor Christianity.

Like my mother would say, "this stinks to high heaven!"

And we have numerous witnesses over the years who have spoken of the immoral abuses and filthy-lucre money-grabs which have regularly occurred behind closed doors in the upper echelons of LSM.

But what caused LSM to lose all credibility was Witness Lee's own criminal actions to destroy the reputations of John Ingalls et.al. for the simple "crime" of coming to the aid of hurting victims.

Poor, poor LSM.

ZNPaaneah

05-04-2018, 07:05 AM

Drake

05-04-2018, 07:25 AM

"hate the sin, love the sinner"

In the OP Drake already clarified that he did not mean the whole of Christianity is poor. So he is not "characterizing the entire body of Christ" and not speaking about "all of your brothers". For example, I don't believe Drake had anyone on this forum in mind, probably there are no Bey worshippers here.

Thankfully no one thus far is proposing Bey worship! Most of the entries in this thread are reasoned and offering differing views without misunderstanding or purposefully misrepresenting the OP. Such are examples of civil discourse where people with different perspectives can disagree agreeably ....even vigorously. Those are generally accepted conditions for participating in discussions face to face or online.

That is how it should be.

It becomes toxic when vigor leads to misrepresentation of others views with whom you disagree as in the case of the post you cited above. The OP expressed my belief but the poster restates my belief to match one he wants to debate. Rather than disagree with the OP on its merits he prefers to create a version of it that he is comfortable debating against and hopes he can thereby win the argument if only in his own mind. That is a proverbial straw man argument.

“A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.” Wikipedia

Drake

Kevin

05-04-2018, 07:38 AM

Ok, but what do you think of the Beyonce worship?

Does it represent true Christianity?

One more thing, that Lee has created more strawman.

Drake

05-04-2018, 07:55 AM

4. I don’t even understand the premise, we glory in the Lord. It seems the whole premise of this thread is “thank God I am not like those Christians”.

A fair question and post ZNP.

I’ll clarify. The premise of this thread is to address the objections that people in this forum have toward the phrase Brother Lee made “poor poor Christianity “. I contend he had grounds for it.

We do glory in the Lord and put our trust in Him. Yet, when people lambast Brother Lee, his co-workers, and that little flock day after day in this forum is that their glorying in the Lord?

DistantStar said we should not include heretical groups under the banner of Christianity. Although, it is generally accepted that Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, and other heretical Christian groups are included in Christianity I agree to set aside those groups as part of the poor poor Christianity debate. I believe we would all agree that if those heretical groups were included almost all or perhaps all would agree in principle that at least those groups characterize poor poor Christianity. Therefore, the links I provided are not about a heretical group but about a group that is historically accepted under the banner of Christianity. That is Episcopalian. Since they are a bonafide member of Christianity then the first proof point for poor poor Christianity is established but I will also concede that in reality we have only proven thus far poor poor Episcopalianism.

Drake

Drake

05-04-2018, 07:59 AM

Does it represent true Christianity?.

The Episcopal Church is a member of Christianity. So yes, but it obviously does not represent every other group in Christianity. None of them do.

No, if by true Christianity you mean according to the Bible.

See my note to ZNP in front of this one.

Drake

Kevin

05-04-2018, 08:20 AM

The Episcopal Church is a member of Christianity. So yes, but it obviously does not represent every other group in Christianity. None of them do.

No, if by true Christianity you mean according to the Bible.

See my note to ZNP in front of this one.

Drake

Nothing new under the sun. :rollingeyesfrown:

Drake

05-04-2018, 08:26 AM

Rom 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one...

But we expect to look around us at the whole lot of believers....and find collective righteousness? No. He calls us to speak of the good. The hope. Our hope is only and entirely in Christ Jesus. I must be the first to admit that I was saved by grace alone, let there be no doubt, it was not on my merit, but Jesus'.

The Holy Spirit is searching the hearts of man....and we have our advocate Jesus before the Father....And He will be the One to testify of our faith in Him to our Father...and He loves us and died so that we might be forgiven our foolish, selfish, sinfulness...and I know any person who touches Jesus will touch the light, and when confessing, touch real grace. Let us let them.

InHismercy,

I agree.

Yet, there is more. ;) Here is what I mean.

In Revelation 2 & 3 we see the Lord judging churches.... a collective judgment. He is judging, assessing, condemning, and in a few cases he is commending. He is assessing their teachings, their works, and their love for Him, and their sacrifice. He commends those who hate what He hates.

“But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate”. Rev 2:3

That is the collective part. However, you are spot on about the individual aspect and our taking care of that first and foremost. Again, in Revelation 2 & 3 the Lord calls individuals, overcomers, to overcome the degradation in the collective part. I would characterize what you described as a heart to overcome. Said differently, the Lord will reward each individual according to their overcoming the degradation of the context, the collective, they are part of.

Drake

awareness

05-04-2018, 08:53 AM

A fair question and post ZNP.

I’ll clarify. The premise of this thread is to address the objections that people in this forum have toward the phrase Brother Lee made “poor poor Christianity “. I contend he had grounds for it.

We do glory in the Lord and put our trust in Him. Yet, when people lambast Brother Lee, his co-workers, and that little flock day after day in this forum is that their glorying in the Lord?

DistantStar said we should not include heretical groups under the banner of Christianity. Although, it is generally accepted that Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, and other heretical Christian groups are included in Christianity I agree to set aside those groups as part of the poor poor Christianity debate. I believe we would all agree that if those heretical groups were included almost all or perhaps all would agree in principle that at least those groups characterize poor poor Christianity. Therefore, the links I provided are not about a heretical group but about a group that is historically accepted under the banner of Christianity. That is Episcopalian. Since they are a bonafide member of Christianity then the first proof point for poor poor Christianity is established but I will also concede that in reality we have only proven thus far poor poor Episcopalianism.

Drake
Bro Drake, perhaps all of Christendom, including the JWs and Mormons, would glory in the Lord accept for :

Rom_7:23* But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

We're all human. And that's Christendom's failure ... including the sect of Nee and Lee.

Ohio

05-04-2018, 09:28 AM

It seems the whole premise of this thread is “thank God I am not like those Christians”.
Reminds me of that prayer in the temple by that Pharisee. (Luke 18.10-14)

But I must be honest and say, "thank the Lord" that these Pharisees at LSM are still praying.

Ohio

05-04-2018, 09:50 AM

In Revelation 2 & 3 we see the Lord judging churches.... a collective judgment. He is judging, assessing, condemning, and in a few cases he is commending. He is assessing their teachings, their works, and their love for Him, and their sacrifice. He commends those who hate what He hates.

“But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate”. Rev 2:3

Hi Drake, let's rethink this whole "Nicolaitans" matter in the light of scriptures, not according to Nee's and Lee's self-serving teachings. The Nicolaitans have nothing to do with Evangelists, Pastors, and Ministers in so-called "poor, poor Christianity," since all of these functions and gifts have been established by the Apostles.

Instead this matter should apply to what the Lord really hates -- church leaders lusting to have preeminence in the church, lording it over the church of God, and ruling the church as the Gentiles do. (I Peter 5.3; Matt 20.25; Luke 22.25-26; 3 John 9)

In this regard, LSM bears much guilt, and is in no position to condemn others. Should we post those horror stories at LSM by Philip Lee again? Should we discuss those lawsuits and quarantines LSM has become infamous over. Getting past the curtains of Lee-based esoteric doctrines, these are LSM's "true colors," and the proof is in the decades long trail of victims.

Drake

05-04-2018, 04:57 PM

Bro Drake, perhaps all of Christendom, including the JWs and Mormons, would glory in the Lord accept for :

Rom_7:23* But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

We're all human. And that's Christendom's failure ... including the sect of Nee and Lee.

Bro awareness,

We are all human and the flesh of sin we will always have with us. Yet the Lord would not have issued a call to overcome were it not possible to overcome. For the believer there is the capability to overcome through the indwelling Spirit of life.

Still, whereas sin is inside of us, there are also the forces outside of us. The rulers, principalities, and powers (archon) spoken of Ephesians rule and influence matters outside of us. The Beyoncé worship is one example and the reasons the Anglican Church gave for disassociating the Episcopalian Church from their group are other examples.

Thanks
Drake

05-04-2018, 11:37 PM

Drake

05-05-2018, 07:10 AM

Drake Beyonce worship is simply disgusting. Tar and feather "Christianity" with that all you want. But, I don't know a single Christian who is buying into such stuff. Does anyone else here know a Beyonce worshipper in their church?

JJ,

Glad someone here finds it disgusting and willing to emphatically say it. Hope there are no Beyonce worshippers anywhere else except right there in that video.

However, are you saying that all those Beyoncé adoring people were not Christians? How would you know that?

Are Episcopalians not Christians?

Drake

leastofthese

05-05-2018, 08:03 AM

JJ,

Glad someone here finds it disgusting and willing to emphatically say it. Hope there are no Beyonce worshippers anywhere else except right there in that video.

Drake,

No one here is (or has been) a part of the Beyonce worship (although Evangelical seems to know her songs and the lingo).

So your concern is that a group of people who don't really know anything abut the Beyonce worship or the people who were there aren't emphatically judging and castigating these people? You realize this forum is to discuss the Local Church movement (meaning LSM) and the teaching of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, right? Are you trying to reach out to those who attended this event? What are you trying to get at here? Proving that Christianity isn't perfect? The question is not is Christianity perfect, the question is, how does the LSM follow a leader such as Witness Lee?

Students, parents of students, and those following Witness Lee need to be warned man, that's the sad truth.

P.S.
I don't condone the worship of Beyonce, it would be idolatry and an abomination before the Lord.

May the name of Jesus be proclaimed above all others.

Drake

05-05-2018, 08:07 AM

You realize this forum is to discuss the Local Church movement (meaning LSM) and the teaching of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, right?

LofT,

Of course. Read the OP.

Drake

Ohio

05-05-2018, 08:20 AM

Drake

05-05-2018, 08:37 AM

Judging from the responses, it appears that most posters here find the worship of Beyonce disgusting and are willing to say it publicly. Other teachings and practices of the Episcopalian Church has led to disassociation by its closest ally the Anglican Church. These two citations are one proof point of poor poor Christianity. However, at this time we have only proven poor poor Episcopalianism.

The Anglican Church is the third largest Christian communion in the world following Roman Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Not a small player. The 39 Articles of Religion were the foundation for framing the beliefs of the Anglican Church. However, one only need to read the first 10 Articles to realize this is but another example of poor poor Christianity.

Here they and deviations from the scriptural teaching and practices will be apparent.

10 Articles

1. The binding authority of the Bible, the three ecumenical creeds and the first four ecumenical councils
2. The necessity of baptism for salvation, even in the case of infants (Art. II. says that "infants ought to be baptised" and that, dying in infancy, they "shall undoubtedly be saved thereby, and else not"; that the opinions of Anabaptists and Pelagians are "detestable heresies, and utterly to be condemned".)
3. The sacrament of penance, with confession and absolution, which are declared "expedient and necessary"
4. The substantial, real, corporal presence of Christ's body and blood under the form of bread and wine in the Eucharist
5. Justification by faith, joined with charity and obedience
6. The use of images in churches
7. The honouring of saints and the Virgin Mary
8. The invocation of saints
9. The observance of various rites and ceremonies as good and laudable, such as clerical vestments, sprinkling of holy water, bearing of candles on Candlemas-day, giving of ashes on Ash Wednesday
10. The doctrine of purgatory, and prayers for the dead in purgatory (made purgatory a non-essential doctrine)

Drake

aron

05-05-2018, 09:12 AM

Here they and deviations from the scriptural teaching and practices will be apparent.

10 Articles

1. The binding authority of the Bible, the three ecumenical creeds and the first four ecumenical councils
2. The necessity of baptism for salvation, even in the case of infants (Art. II. says that "infants ought to be baptised" and that, dying in infancy, they "shall undoubtedly be saved thereby, and else not"; that the opinions of Anabaptists and Pelagians are "detestable heresies, and utterly to be condemned".)
3. The sacrament of penance, with confession and absolution, which are declared "expedient and necessary"
4. The substantial, real, corporal presence of Christ's body and blood under the form of bread and wine in the Eucharist
5. Justification by faith, joined with charity and obedience
6. The use of images in churches
7. The honouring of saints and the Virgin Mary
8. The invocation of saints
9. The observance of various rites and ceremonies as good and laudable, such as clerical vestments, sprinkling of holy water, bearing of candles on Candlemas-day, giving of ashes on Ash Wednesday
10. The doctrine of purgatory, and prayers for the dead in purgatory (made purgatory a non-essential doctrine)

Three words: one publication policy.

Who is impoverished here?

Did Paul quarantine Apollos?

leastofthese

05-05-2018, 09:46 AM

Drake is merely using Beyonce to troll us on the forum.

Is the trolling willful blindness, outright division, spirit of confusion (very common in the LSM churches), or manipulation...? I guess there could be other more sinister foundations, but I'll leave those out.

Ohio

05-05-2018, 10:29 AM

Ohio

05-05-2018, 10:31 AM

Is the trolling willful blindness, outright division, spirit of confusion (very common in the LSM churches), or manipulation...? I guess there could be other more sinister foundations, but I'll leave those out.
As long as Drake is not being ambitious, then he can be forgiven.

awareness

05-05-2018, 11:23 AM

Bro awareness,

We are all human and the flesh of sin we will always have with us. Yet the Lord would not have issued a call to overcome were it not possible to overcome. For the believer there is the capability to overcome through the indwelling Spirit of life.

Still, whereas sin is inside of us, there are also the forces outside of us. The rulers, principalities, and powers (archon) spoken of Ephesians rule and influence matters outside of us. The Beyoncé worship is one example and the reasons the Anglican Church gave for disassociating the Episcopalian Church from their group are other examples.

Thanks
Drake
Bro Drake, thanks for the reply.

I think what I'm trying to say is that the reason Christianity is poor, poor, poor, is because it's made up of people. And that's true for all of Christianity, even the local churches.

It's really not poor, poor, poor, Christianity, it's poor, poor, poor, people, and we can't get around that ; we can't get around the human condition.

So it's not realistic to point at Christianity and call it poor, poor, poor, Christianity ; without admitting that we too are just as poor, poor, poor.

And also, I don't think an overcomer would do that, or act that way. I think an overcomer would produce the fruits of the Spirit, and the lessons provide by Jesus, on sermon on the mount.

Blessings brother ....
Harold

Drake

05-05-2018, 11:38 AM

Three words: one publication policy.

Who is impoverished here?

Did Paul quarantine Apollos?

Aron,

So, one publication excuses the Anglican 10 articles?

Drake

Drake

05-05-2018, 11:53 AM

Bro Drake, thanks for the reply.

I think what I'm trying to say is that the reason Christianity is poor, poor, poor, is because it's made up of people. And that's true for all of Christianity, even the local churches.

It's really not poor, poor, poor, Christianity, it's poor, poor, poor, people, and we can't get around that ; we can't get around the human condition.

So it's not realistic to point at Christianity and call it poor, poor, poor, Christianity ; without admitting that we too are just as poor, poor, poor.

And also, I don't think an overcomer would do that, or act that way. I think an overcomer would produce the fruits of the Spirit, and the lessons provide by Jesus, on sermon on the mount.

Blessings brother ....
Harold

Thanks Harold for your reasoned reply. There are few here who are able to do that anymore.

I understand your argument and as pertains to every man it is a valid point to make.

Yet, we cannot ignore institutions and their teachings and practices. The Lords call to overcomers is to overcome not only personal matters but institutional ones as well.... teachings, works, practices according to His valuation of them. Those are the calls of Revelation 2 & 3.

Drake

Drake

05-05-2018, 11:56 AM

Hold on a minute. This proves that???

If one stupid gathering in SanFran proves the entire Episcopal church is "poor," then we have way more than enough evidence to prove LSM and the entire LCM is also poor.

I see what’s happening now. You are not reading the posts and just shooting at anything that rustles.

Read both links and if you disagree then explain why.

leastofthese

05-05-2018, 01:13 PM

Yet, we cannot ignore institutions and their teachings and practices. The Lords call to overcomers is to overcome not only personal matters but institutional ones as well.... teachings, works, practices according to His valuation of them. Those are the calls of Revelation 2 & 3.

Drake

Drake you still miss the point man - you need to remove the beam from your own eye before you can address the specks of others. You boldly ignore the institution, teachings, and practices of the churches who follow the LSM and Witness Lee.

Drake

05-05-2018, 01:30 PM

Drake you still miss the point man - you need to remove the beam from your own eye before you can address the specks of others. You boldly ignore the institution, teachings, and practices of the churches who follow the LSM and Witness Lee.

LofT,

Ummmm.

First LofT. You are not my Lord, not my God, not the Spirit , not my elder, not my wife, not my mom or dad, nor an authority in scripture to demand that I not follow the Lords speaking to me from the Bible and according to His leading.

I’ll accept your point of view as a peer, a brother in the Lord, providing you are actually willing to give it.

Now, to the second part of your post you have ignored the question on the table. Are not most of the 10 Articles an example of poor poor Christianity? We are discussing a teaching of Brother Lee. Please show us why that is not a perfect example of said teaching. You argument is false, it is a type of moral equivalency.

Drake

aron

05-05-2018, 01:44 PM

Aron,

So, one publication excuses the Anglican 10 articles?

Drake

Drake,

Absolutely not. I already wrote that that there are two related questions here: first, is "Christianity" as "poor" as Lee said it was, and second, is Lee's group somehow exempt?

You present the Anglican 10 Articles as proof of the first, and I respond with LSM's OPP as proof of the same spiritual lack found in Lee et al.

Aron

Drake

05-05-2018, 01:51 PM

Drake,

Absolutely not. I already wrote that that there are two related questions here: first, is "Christianity" as "poor" as Lee said, and second, is Lee's group somehow exempt?

You push the Anglican 10 Articles as proof of the first, and I respond with LSM's OPP as proof of the same spiritual lack.

I see. Then as regards the first we are in agreement that The Anglican Church 10 Articles are an example of what Brother Lee referred to as poor poor Christianity. As would be expected you argue that the local churches are not exempt. Got it.

Drake

05-05-2018, 02:04 PM

JJ,

Glad someone here finds it disgusting and willing to emphatically say it. Hope there are no Beyonce worshippers anywhere else except right there in that video.

However, are you saying that all those Beyoncé adoring people were not Christians? How would you know that?

Are Episcopalians not Christians?

Drake

Sorry, I don't know anything about Episcopalians or Anglicans. And, I'm not on this forum to trash or defend them. You pointed out some serious problems that I agree with. Still doesn't render everyone in Christianity that isn't in an LSM local church poor.

It seems to me that anyone worshipping Beyonce would not be a Christian.

What do you think about the statement I heard in the last "blending conference" I attended: "The interpreted Word of God from Living Stream Ministry is what we need to be spending our time reading to get ready for the Lord's return (as opposed to the Bible)?

aron

05-05-2018, 02:06 PM

I see. Then as regards the first we are in agreement that The Anglican Church 10 Articles are an example of what Brother Lee referred to as poor poor Christianity. As would be expected you argue that the local churches are not exempt. Got it.

DrakeI am glad you got it. I thought I was pretty clear the first time around.

Here is Lee's plea for exemption:

"Suppose you invite me to your home for a meal. If I see that everything in your kitchen is neat and orderly, I may be disappointed, for I shall realize that there may not be much to eat. But if I see that your kitchen is messy because of all the preparations for the meal, I shall know a feast is being prepared. When no one is cooking, the kitchen may be neat. But when a good meal is being prepared, the kitchen will not be so orderly. If everything in the church is neat and orderly, this may indicate that no one is doing any cooking. This means that there is a shortage in the process of sanctification. I can testify that the kitchen of the church in Anaheim is messy. This proves that in Anaheim we are in the process of sanctification."Lee wanted to peer in everyone's messy kitchen, but for you to forgive his. I think the above was spoken shortly after his "unspiritual chef" was caught for the second time, molesting the help.

The other thing Lee did to argue for exemption was to say that "God sees no iniquity in Isarael"; in contrast to "Christianity" which of course was under condemnation.

Like I said, shadows and turnings. You probably couldn't give this stuff away, but if you print it, bind it and sell it, you can make some money.

awareness

05-05-2018, 02:10 PM

Thanks Harold for your reasoned reply. There are few here who are able to do that anymore.

I understand your argument and as pertains to every man it is a valid point to make.

Yet, we cannot ignore institutions and their teachings and practices. The Lords call to overcomers is to overcome not only personal matters but institutional ones as well.... teachings, works, practices according to His valuation of them. Those are the calls of Revelation 2 & 3.

Drake
I know brother. I've attended many of the churches in this area. And gotten involved. And I'm astounded at the ignorance I encounter.

Because I bring up matters in the Bible I've stirred up much trouble, and been accused of feeding meat to milk drinkers ; that are gray-hairs with grown children, but still drinking milk.

It's pathetic, I tell ya. So I say, poor, poor, poor Christianity, but not to put them down, or consider them lower then me. I may know a lot, but I'm no walk in the park either.

But maybe you are, I don't know. Are you better because you are in the local church? are you better because you consider that you are an overcomer? I'm not saying. I don't know.

But wouldn't an overcomer have arms open to them? Wouldn't they not condemn them, but love them?

I don't agree with poor, poor, poor, local churcher's, but I love them, or try to.

For instance, I don't see any reason to not love you. You're in an institution, one that's way more controlling than most other Christian sects ... sort of like the JWs and Mormons ... but I don't see that as a reason not to love you.

Do you love them, the JWs and Mormons? I do. Go on the Trinity thread on AltVs, and see my story of calling my JW friend, to discuss his views on the trinity. I love the guy, and his family.

As Christians, specailly if an overcomer, isn't that what we should be doing?

But for sure we shouldn't be wagging our fingers at them, and condemning them for not being in our "superior" church.

So Lee saying poor, poor, poor, Christianity is not Christian, and doesn't indicate anything close to overcoming.

Do you agree or not? Not that you're obligated to say. Just wondering ... to perchance see if you are indeed an overcomer. I'm hoping you are. I do see evidence out here that you very well may be ... or on your way at least.

Maybe then, you could help me. I'm trying to overcome it all too. It ain't easy, brother.

". . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Drake

05-05-2018, 02:12 PM

Sorry, I don't know anything about Episcopalians or Anglicans. And, I'm not on this forum to trash or defend them. You pointed out some serious problems that I agree with. Still doesn't render everyone in Christianity that isn't in an LSM local church poor.

It seems to me that anyone worshipping Beyonce would not be a Christian.

What do you think about the statement I heard in the last "blending conference" I attended: "The interpreted Word of God from Living Stream Ministry is what we need to be spending our time reading to get ready for the Lord's return (as opposed to the Bible)?

JJ,

Right. Thus far we have only covered two.

On the last statement it is a good topic. Open a new thread and I will join you there.

Drake

05-05-2018, 02:36 PM

JJ,

Right. Thus far we have only covered two.

On the last statement it is a good topic. Open a new thread and I will join you there.

Drake

At some point I'll open a thread on that, Drake. But, if you don't mind I'll punt on that for now and see where you want to go with this thread. I'm working on the Myth Busters thread today.

Blessings in Jesus' name.

Drake

05-05-2018, 03:19 PM

I know brother. I've attended many of the churches in this area. And gotten involved. And I'm astounded at the ignorance I encounter.

Because I bring up matters in the Bible I've stirred up much trouble, and been accused of feeding meat to milk drinkers ; that are gray-hairs with grown children, but still drinking milk.

It's pathetic, I tell ya. So I say, poor, poor, poor Christianity, but not to put them down, or consider them lower then me. I may know a lot, but I'm no walk in the park either.

But maybe you are, I don't know. Are you better because you are in the local church? are you better because you consider that you are an overcomer? I'm not saying. I don't know.

But wouldn't an overcomer have arms open to them? Wouldn't they not condemn them, but love them?

I don't agree with poor, poor, poor, local churcher's, but I love them, or try to.

For instance, I don't see any reason to not love you. You're in an institution, one that's way more controlling than most other Christian sects ... sort of like the JWs and Mormons ... but I don't see that as a reason not to love you.

Do you love them, the JWs and Mormons? I do. Go on the Trinity thread on AltVs, and see my story of calling my JW friend, to discuss his views on the trinity. I love the guy, and his family.

As Christians, specailly if an overcomer, isn't that what we should be doing?

But for sure we shouldn't be wagging our fingers at them, and condemning them for not being in our "superior" church.

So Lee saying poor, poor, poor, Christianity is not Christian, and doesn't indicate anything close to overcoming.

Do you agree or not? Not that you're obligated to say. Just wondering ... to perchance see if you are indeed an overcomer. I'm hoping you are. I do see evidence out here that you very well may be ... or on your way at least.

Maybe then, you could help me. I'm trying to overcome it all too. It ain't easy, brother.

". . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Hi awareness,

Thanks for your post.

I’m glad you shared your thoughts on overcoming. First, I really don’t know who the overcomers might be because that is in the Lords hands entirely. I often think those who gave their lives for the Lord over the past 2000 years would be instant overcomers. I met some throughout the years in various places that I thought very well might be overcomers in and outside the Lords recovery. Since the Lord called overcomers in every one of the seven churches in Revelation then I believe every church represented in Revelation 2 & 3 must have overcomers including some in the churches that will still be represented at the Lords return... Roman Catholic Church (Thyatira), Protestantism (Sardis), Philadelphia, and even Laodicea. There are many groups that are flying under the radar that could very well have overcomers. The simple yet committed believers suffering in China could have millions. A few years ago I met a messianic Jewish believer and her knowledge of the Bible was astounding. She indicated she returned to the land of Israel to live, evangelize the nation of Israel, and to bring the Lord back. Such consecration slew me. So, we just don’t know. Brother Lee shared on this matter that just because we are in the Lords recovery does not mean we will be an overcomer. Knowing that the Lord is calling overcomers causes us to aspire to it and that can increase our chances to attain it but still there is no guarantee. If we are not aware of the Lords call to overcomers then we might miss it but a seeker will look into it and pursue it. If I become introspective I assess that I am very far from it. However, when I am enjoying the Lord , caught up in His presence, then I realize that my responsibility is to pursue Christ and hope and pray that one day I will be counted worthy to obtain a crown or a white stone with a special name or some other reward. All symbolically significant.

As far as poor poor Christianity... that is calling a spade a spade in my view. It could include any group. I think the benefit of the phrase is that causes us to assess our condition according to the scripture. Brother Lee spent more time critiquing the Lords recovery than he did Christianity. Nothing wrong with that, rather that was a good thing. He really cared giving us lessons, laboring over them, and putting them into practice.

Thanks again Harold. Great insight and points you made.

Drake

Kevin

05-05-2018, 05:00 PM

Do not say that the church is low or dead. The more you say this, the more you put yourself under a curse. However, if you praise the Lord for the church life and speak well concerning it, you will put yourself under God’s blessing.

(Life-Study of Exodus, Chapter 7, Section 3)

We do not say Christianity is....oh wait! We are told not to criticize the situation within the local church of Witness Lee, but only speak the degradation of Christianity...oh wait!

When we say "Poor Christianity!" we refer to the abnormal Christianity, with no intention of belittling or despising any real Christian.

(Elders' Training, Book 10: The Eldership and the God-Ordained Way (2), Chapter 6, Section 9)

But in reality, I have witnessed that this is not the case. They do not make any distinctions between a system and a people. Therefore, for many years I have endured bearing such a gross attitude from church meetings after church meetings. I have had enough of it! When the time I got caught for extending my fellowship with other Christians from various groups, QUARANTINE was the option! And I thank God for setting me free from an elite and exclusive group.

Didn't Lee make a public confession?

Because of our negligence in this matter in the past, we have offended the Body of Christ and many brothers and sisters in the Lord. For this reason, I had a deep repentance before the Lord.

(The Experience of God's Organic Salvation Equaling Reigning in Christ's Life, p. 69)

There has nothing change at all after his death.

Kevin

05-05-2018, 05:26 PM

Roman Catholic Church (Thyatira), Protestantism (Sardis), Philadelphia, and even Laodicea.

Yeah, Lord's Recovery (Philadelphia)

Kevin

05-05-2018, 05:33 PM

Lords Recovery than he did Christianity

It looks like the group's name is Lord's Recovery Church.

Are we in the Lord's Recovery, or are we in the Lord's recovery? The case of the letter r in the word "recovery" makes a big difference. It is a difference that is conveyed by our words and attitude when speaking with others. The Lord's Recovery (upper case R) implies a special exclusive group. It becomes a title, and it is a first step toward denominating ourselves. If the Lord delays His coming, we do NOT want to become known as the Lord's Recovery Church. The Lord's recovery (lower case r) is the long line of recovery that has been God's work throughout the ages. By His grace, we are included in that work today. We can boldly stand beside Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and all the others who have gone before. —Titus Chu

awareness

05-05-2018, 08:27 PM

Brother Lee shared on this matter that just because we are in the Lords Recovery does not mean we will be an overcomer.
Well at least he talked the talk.

If we are not aware of the Lords call to overcomers then we might miss it . . .
I don't know. The little old lady sitting on the back pew, that knows nothing about overcomers, may be an overcomer. I think it may have more to do with our hearts, than what we know or do.

If I become introspective I assess that I am very far from it.
Well you seem to qualify in the humility department. It might even get you closer if you be like Paul, and brag about that ... ;)

However, when I am enjoying the Lord , caught up in His presence, then I realize that my responsibility is to pursue Christ and hope and pray that one day I will be counted worthy to obtain a crown or a white stone with a special name or some other reward. All symbolically significant.
When I'm caught up in the presence then I don't need to pursue anything. Why get distracted? As long as we're seeking we're not finding. The end of all our fruitless seeking is found in the presence. That culminates all our finding. Don't you agree? {rhetorical}

Brother Lee spent more time critiquing the Lords Recovery than he did Christianity. Nothing wrong with that, rather that was a good thing. He really cared giving us lessons, laboring over them, and putting them into practice.
When I was there the most disturbing thing was discovering that Lee's practice wasn't living up to his teachings. At first I shelved every instance I came across, but it added up along the way.

But now that Lee is gone that no longer matters. Unless Lee has become the touchstone in the local churches.

I can't say. I'm not there. You would know better than me ... at least how it is in your locality.

And thanks to you for sharing some deep thoughts on the matter of overcoming. May the Lord bless us with it. But I want him to bless everyone with it ... even the babes in Christ. It's my only hope.

Drake

05-05-2018, 08:53 PM

It looks like the group's name is Lord's Recovery Church.

Good catch.

Changed to little “r” as it should be in body of text. Big “R” acceptable in book and article titles, headers, chapter, paragraph breaks etc.

Thanks
Drake

Drake

05-05-2018, 08:59 PM

At some point I'll open a thread on that, Drake. But, if you don't mind I'll punt on that for now and see where you want to go with this thread. I'm working on the Myth Busters thread today.

Blessings in Jesus' name.

Sure. Np JJ. No rush.

Evangelical

05-06-2018, 05:41 AM

Unfortunately the phenomena of pop music influencing the church is not limited to the Episcopalian church or to Beyonce.

Here is a NJ church singing Adele:

https://www.christianpost.com/news/nj-church-sings-adeles-rolling-in-the-deep-during-sunday-worship-69378/

Here is a Christian article suggesting that the church should listen to Lady Gaga:

http://www.ministrymatters.com/all/entry/2155/why-the-church-should-listen-to-lady-gaga

If Paul stood on Mars Hill and used the altar to the Unknown God to lead people to Christ, can we not use Lady Gaga to do the same?

Adele's "hello" song is apparently prophetic (who knew, Adele is one of God's prophets?):

http://www.ministrymatters.com/worship/entry/6419/adeles-prophetic-hello

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/what-the-church-can-learn-from-adeles-25/71855.htm

Based on these results, it does not seem that adoration or worship of pop idols is limited to the Episcopalian church.

These churches and individual Christians who publish webpages encouraging the church to accept or learn from worldly pop idols need to be reminded of the words of Alice Cooper, a devout Christian-

" the world doesn’t belong to us, it belongs to Satan.”

awareness

05-06-2018, 08:59 AM

Yeah, Lord's Recovery (Philadelphia)
:hysterical:

Hey ... I looked, and searched the whole New Testament, and found no such word "recovery" anywhere -- upper or lowercase -- in relation to anything, even the church in Philadelphia. It's an extra-Biblical word ... an addon ... not even found in any of the Greek manuscripts, early or later ones. It's a Lee invention ... prolly originated with the scalawag Nee.

leastofthese

05-06-2018, 10:25 AM

LofT,

Ummmm.

First LofT. You are not my Lord, not my God, not the Spirit , not my elder, not my wife, not my mom or dad, nor an authority in scripture to demand that I not follow the Lords speaking to me from the Bible and according to His leading.

I’ll accept your point of view as a peer, a brother in the Lord, providing you are actually willing to give it.

Now, to the second part of your post you have ignored the question on the table. Are not most of the 10 Articles an example of poor poor Christianity? We are discussing a teaching of Brother Lee. Please show us why that is not a perfect example of said teaching. You argument is false, it is a type of moral equivalency.

Drake

I'm not sure what you mean Drake, of coarse I'm none of those things.

My point is simple Drake - you're attempting to describe poor poor Christianity but refuse to look at the state of your own church. I've been all over the world and visited countless churches. Your church, created by witness lee and continued through the LSM is one of the most flawed I've ever seen. Yet, you continue to point to these other churches and all their problems (on a forum specifically created to discuss your church). I guess you're unable to see the irony in that.

I feel for you, and I think about you often. I picture you as an older man with dark hair, going about your day as any normal man with dark hair would. When I think of poor Christianity I think of the brothers and sisters trapped in the LSM, I think about you Drake. I don't say this as someone who was hurt by the church, actually quite the opposite. I was close with people who you probably know of and look up to (at least many in Anaheim do). I was good building material and was treated so much better than some of the other members - who were maybe not as young, fun, smart, good looking, educated, connected, whatever. These dear brothers and sisters - left as second class citizens in the hierarchy created by the Living Stream.

I'm probably a good 20-30 years younger than you, but don't look down on me because of my youth. I don't have everything figured out, I've never claimed that. But I know God and He loves me. He works through me and works for me. My life is a living testimony to these facts. He has proven himself true not only through His word, but by speaking to me, and loving me as his precious son.

How dangerous are the teachings of Witness Lee and his ministry? I have no idea. But they are built on a weak foundation and continue to function through that. Those visiting this forum come to learn more, defend, ask questions, share testimony about the LSM churches - not hear about how bad the Beyonce church is, nor how XYZ denomination is crumbling towards the things of this world.

Drake

05-06-2018, 03:15 PM

:hysterical:

Hey ... I looked, and searched the whole New Testament, and found no such word "recovery" anywhere -- upper or lowercase -- in relation to anything, even the church in Philadelphia. It's an extra-Biblical word ... an addon ... not even found in any of the Greek manuscripts, early or later ones. It's a Lee invention ... prolly originated with the scalawag Nee.

Awareness,

There is recover, recovered, and recovering in the Bible. That should be acceptable but if not you should be aware that there is not a single instance of the word “awareness” in the Bible. Prolly your invention.:rolleyes:

Drake

Drake

05-06-2018, 03:23 PM

LofT,

My hair color, assuming I have hair, is irrelevant. I’ll allow my age is relevant in the context we are discussing.

Do you include the local churches as branch of Christianity? If so, then based on your assessment but for different reasons you agree that there is basis for “poor poor Christianity “.

Drake

Evangelical

05-06-2018, 08:01 PM

Awareness,

There is recover, recovered, and recovering in the Bible. That should be acceptable but if not you should be aware that there is not a single instance of the word “awareness” in the Bible. Prolly your invention.:rolleyes:

Drake

The word denomination is not in the bible. Oh dear.

Evangelical

05-06-2018, 08:03 PM

:hysterical:

Hey ... I looked, and searched the whole New Testament, and found no such word "recovery" anywhere -- upper or lowercase -- in relation to anything, even the church in Philadelphia. It's an extra-Biblical word ... an addon ... not even found in any of the Greek manuscripts, early or later ones. It's a Lee invention ... prolly originated with the scalawag Nee.

Why is it in the bible dictionary then?
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/recover/

Lee used it as if it was taken straight out of the bible dictionary. Can't argue with that.

aron

05-07-2018, 02:14 AM

Unfortunately the phenomena of pop music influencing the church is not limited to the Episcopalian church or to Beyonce.

Here is a NJ church singing Adele:

You're on a roll of righteous self-indignation; why stop when you get to the LC? Why the special treatment, why the respecting of persons? God is not a respecter of persons; why are you?

Witness Lee is worshipped as a God in China. Not by 900 but by 900,000. How is it that a Bible expositor comes to be worshiped as God? What happened there? Perhaps that his ministry was a cesspool of self promotion, self aggrandizement and self exaltation? And that the Bible got dumbed down to a series of slogans that were questionable at best, the incessant shouting of which drove his acolytes batty? What really happened to the baby gods in the PRC?

"With what measure you measure, will you also be measured". Ever heard that one? A guy named Jesus said it. The Local Church of Witness Lee is a poster child for poor, poor Christianity. Too poor.

How does one go from "poor" to "rich" to "degraded" anyway? Maybe it was just a poor ministry, all along. So poor it didn't know it was poor, and said it was rich. "You say you are rich, but you don't know that you are poor" also comes to mind.

If you google "rich ministry lsm" you'll be surprised how many web sites they have pushing these concepts. They're rich like the RCC in owning real estate, and the bodies and souls of men. "Truly I say to you, they have their reward."

Drake

05-07-2018, 03:42 AM

You're on a roll of righteous self-indignation; why stop when you get to the LC? Why the special treatment? Why the respecting of persons? God is not a respecter of persons; why are you?

Witness Lee is worshipped as a God in China. Not by 900 but by 900,000. How is it that a Bible expositor comes to be worshiped as God? What happened there? Could it be that his ministry was a cesspool of self-aggrandizement and self-exaltation?

"With what measure you measure, will you also be measured". Ever heard that one? A guy named Jesus said it. The Church of Witness Lee is a poster child for poor, poor Christianity. Too poor.

How does one go from "poor" to "rich" to "degraded" anyway? Maybe it was a poor ministry, all along. So poor it didn't know it was poor, and said it was rich. "You say you are rich, but you are poor" also comes to mind.

Aron,

You seem to making an argument against the Lords assessing, judging, and charge to His own to overcome the degradation in the churches. You teaching us that “a guy named Jesus” really meant a kind of live and let live philosophy in Revelation 2 & 3?

And yet, I am puzzled. If you believe that then why doesn’t every word in your post apply to you too? Do you meet the standard of your own posts or are you exempt?

Thanks
Drake

aron

05-07-2018, 04:22 AM

Drake

05-07-2018, 04:25 AM

The word denomination is not in the bible. Oh dear.

I don’t recall catholic big “C” or little “c” in the Bible.

Neither “Lutheran” or “Episcopalian “ or Mennonite.

Thankfully language is dynamic and evolves.

Can you imagine being restricted to just using only words in the Bible to express our thoughts?

“I’ll send you a text from my my mobile to let you know when I will pick you up on my motorcycle and take you to Starbucks for a coffee where i will order a venti Frappuccino with whipped cream, and you a Latte, and I’ll pay with my credit card”.

How would one express that idea only using words available in the Bible?

Just sayin.

The things we get hung up on. :rolleyes:

Drake

Drake

05-07-2018, 04:29 AM

Only Jesus has passed the veil. I get along pretty well with most of the posters on this forum; it is the self- righteous that I'm calling out here. Why judge poor Christianity but not Lee? Why the live and let live with the sins of Lee, especially when you're so eager to expose them elsewhere?

Aron,

Sorry. What does “only Jesus passed the veil” mean in this context? Please explain.

Drake

Ohio

05-07-2018, 06:36 AM

When we say "Poor Christianity!" we refer to the abnormal Christianity, with no intention of belittling or despising any real Christian.

(Elders' Training, Book 10: The Eldership and the God-Ordained Way (2), Chapter 6, Section 9)
But in reality, I have witnessed that this is not the case. They do not make any distinctions between a system and a people. Therefore, for many years I have endured bearing such a gross attitude from church meetings after church meetings. I have had enough of it! When the time I got caught for extending my fellowship with other Christians from various groups, QUARANTINE was the option! And I thank God for setting me free from an elite and exclusive group.

Kevin, you are exactly right. Their saying to "love the Christian hate the system," is merely a ruse.

I've used this example before. It's kind of like me telling my dear wife:

"Honey, I love you, but I hate the way you talk, I hate the way you walk, I hate the way you cook, I hate the way you sing, I hate the way you dress, and btw I hate your family too.

But, honey, I do love you." :seestars:

Ohio

05-07-2018, 06:44 AM

Yeah, Lord's Recovery (Philadelphia)
It was John Darby and the Exclusives (after he excommunicated George Muller and all the others) who developed this prophetical view of the 7 churches in Revelation. (Codified in Miller's Church History) And, of course, Philadelphia referred to only them!

W. Nee then bashed the Brethren for excommunicating him, and he decided his movement was now "Philadelphia."

When W. Lee came to the USA, he did the same -- historical revisionism to suit his purpose.

Take a walk down the streets of Philadelphia, PA one summer evening and you can see the value of a good "name." :rollingeyesfrown:

Ohio

05-07-2018, 06:53 AM

Only Jesus has passed the veil. I get along pretty well with most of the posters on this forum; it is the self- righteous that I'm calling out here. Why judge poor Christianity but not Lee? Why the live and let live with the sins of Lee, especially when you're so eager to expose them elsewhere?
Uh oh!

Drake gets a little cranky when you mention the sons of Lee ... I mean the sins of Lee.

Ohio

05-07-2018, 07:00 AM

I don’t recall catholic big “C” or little “c” in the Bible.

Neither “Lutheran” or “Episcopalian “ or Mennonite.

Thankfully language is dynamic and evolves.

Can you imagine being restricted to just using only words in the Bible to express our thoughts?

“I’ll send you a text from my my mobile to let you know when I will pick you up on my motorcycle and take you to Starbucks for a coffee where i will order a venti Frappuccino with whipped cream, and you a Latte, and I’ll pay with my credit card”.

How would one express that idea only using words available in the Bible?

Just sayin.

The things we get hung up on. :rolleyes:

Drake
But you guys at LSM are just fine because you have your own legal defense team ready and willing to file lawsuits against any naysayers ... all legitimized by words from the Bible such as the Defense and Confirmation of the Gospel.

I see how this works. Let's just rename your Beyonce worship to "High Peak Praise and Worship in the Local Church in San Francisco." I got all those words from the Bible. So all is well, eh?

awareness

05-07-2018, 07:01 AM

I don’t recall catholic big “C” or little “c” in the Bible.

Neither “Lutheran” or “Episcopalian “ or Mennonite.

Thankfully language is dynamic and evolves.

Can you imagine being restricted to just using only words in the Bible to express our thoughts?

“I’ll send you a text from my my mobile to let you know when I will pick you up on my motorcycle and take you to Starbucks for a coffee where i will order a venti Frappuccino with whipped cream, and you a Latte, and I’ll pay with my credit card”.

How would one express that idea only using words available in the Bible?

Just sayin.

The things we get hung up on. :rolleyes:

Drake
This is a brilliant observation bro Drake. Likewise, can you imagine "recovering" back to those Bible days?

Isn't that as ludicrous as using only Bible words today? Can you imagine all the saints in the local churches only speaking Aramaic, or Koine Greek?

Now wouldn't that distinguish one church one city?

And the world look and say, 'look at those poor, poor, poor, Christians.'

Drake

05-07-2018, 08:01 AM

:rolleyes2: This is a brilliant observation bro Drake. Likewise, can you imagine "recovering" back to those Bible days?

Isn't that as ludicrous as using only Bible words today? Can you imagine all the saints in the local churches only speaking Aramaic, or Koine Greek?

Now wouldn't that distinguish one church one city?

And the world look and say, 'look at those poor, poor, poor, Christians.'

Brilliant? Why I.... oh you...shush now... you’re just saying that... trying to make me blush...

;)

But, language evolves. Biblical truth is not progressive. Beyoncé worshippers probably use that progressive logic to justify their practice as do those groups listed by Evangelical. The Anglican Church ostracized the Episcopalian Church for newer aberrant beliefs and practices. Rightly so. Yet, the 39 Articles embraced by the Anglican Church were a progression themselves not coming straight from the Bible. I think all those make a case for getting back to the beginning. If all Christians believed and practiced their church life according to the Bible it wouldn’t be so poor, would it?

Drake

Drake

05-07-2018, 08:38 AM

Kevin, you are exactly right. Their saying to "love the Christian hate the system," is merely a ruse.

I've used this example before. It's kind of like me telling my dear wife:

"Honey, I love you, but I hate the way you talk, I hate the way you walk, I hate the way you cook, I hate the way you sing, I hate the way you dress, and btw I hate your family too.

But, honey, I do love you." :seestars:

Now there’s an example of a man who lives dangerously. :yep:

But your analogy is not similar enough to really apply. In your analogy, you and your dear wife are living in the same house, under the same roof, sharing everything, having the same goals, caring for the same children or spoiling the same grandchildren. That would be more similar to a local church where you know what to say and how to say it because you know the people.

A domestic analogy that is more representative would be a Home Owners Association (HMO). As neighbors you would not hate the people but you would point out non-compliance to the HMO. You might try to help them by showing them where they have gone awry. By doing so they might think you hate them but you don’t.

No analogy is ever perfect.

Drake

ZNPaaneah

05-07-2018, 08:38 AM

Aron,

You seem to making an argument against the Lords assessing, judging, and charge to His own to overcome the degradation in the churches. You teaching us that “a guy named Jesus” really meant a kind of live and let live philosophy in Revelation 2 & 3?

And yet, I am puzzled. If you believe that then why doesn’t every word in your post apply to you too? Do you meet the standard of your own posts or are you exempt?

Thanks
Drake

And that I think is the point. How does one look at the Lord's word in Matthew to "judge not lest you be judged" with the judgements of the 7 churches in Revelation?

To me, the verses in Matthew do not apply to judging yourself. "do not judge yourself lest you be judged" is kind of a non warning.

All of those words in Revelation 2 and 3 refer to a normal experience of a Christian pilgrim.

This is why I have become far more focused on Jezebel and Balaam than in the past, I realize that it is part of the typical Christian experience to bump into these deceits, temptations, pitfalls. We should not be surprised if we see them in the locality we are in.

For example, everyone wants to claim they are in Philadelphia, but Philadelphia is composed of saints who have all, 100%, left previous churches, and not due to backsliding. The Lord says He will make them a pillar in the house of God and "they will not go out anymore". It is a prerequisite to becoming a pillar in the house of God to be kicked out by Balaam, Jezebel, to be locked out of Laodicea, etc.

Once again, this thread is defending the practice of Witness Lee by doing the same. It is akin to the religious man praying "thank God I am not like one of those wretched Beyonce fans".

Kevin

05-07-2018, 09:00 AM

:rolleyes2:

Brilliant? Why I.... oh you...shush now... you’re just saying that... trying to make me blush...

;)

But, language evolves. Biblical truth is not progressive. Beyoncé worshippers probably use that progressive logic to justify their practice as do those groups listed by Evangelical. The Anglican Church ostracized the Episcopalian Church for newer aberrant beliefs and practices. Rightly so. Yet, the 39 Articles embraced by the Anglican Church were a progression themselves not coming straight from the Bible. I think all those make a case for getting back to the beginning. If all Christians believed and practiced their church life according to the Bible it wouldn’t be so poor, would it?

Drake

Drake,

Why are you ignoring our testimonies when the evidences are true? Why can't simply the LC admit they were wrong? Mine is more recent a year ago.

Ohio

05-07-2018, 09:10 AM

Now there’s an example of a man who lives dangerously. :yep:

But your analogy is not similar enough to really apply. In your analogy, you and your dear wife are living in the same house, under the same roof, sharing everything, having the same goals, caring for the same children or spoiling the same grandchildren. That would be more similar to a local church where you know what to say and how to say it because you know the people.

No analogy is ever perfect.

Drake
But are not all of us Christians part of the same family, with the same Father, with the same brothers and sisters, with the same life and nature, with the same Lord, part of the same bride of the Lamb, with the same Bible which tells us there is "one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father."

No analogy is perfect, but mine is sure better than yours.

A little brother

05-07-2018, 09:49 AM

This thread is to discuss poor poor Christianity and to allow forum members to discuss whether Brother Lee’s characterization is accurate in specific instances instead of the broad brush generalizations used to criticize him for saying it.

Hi Drake, I think this thread is based on wrong premise. No body would deny there are many issues in Christianity. WL may be right for some of his accusations to poor poor Chirstianity. But I believe most members here are criticizing WL's intention and how he dealt with such issues rather than the claims themselves.

Paul taught us:

Rom 15:1 But we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those who are weak and not to please ourselves.

1 Cor 12:23 And those members of the body which we consider to be less honorable, these we clothe with more abundant honor; and our uncomely members come to have more abundant comeliness,

But what is WL's solution to poor poor Christianity? "Come out of it" and "widen the gap between Christianity and The Lord's Recovery"! Tell me, where is the brotherly love?

Drake

05-07-2018, 12:00 PM

And that I think is the point. How does one look at the Lord's word in Matthew to "judge not lest you be judged" with the judgements of the 7 churches in Revelation?

To me, the verses in Matthew do not apply to judging yourself. "do not judge yourself lest you be judged" is kind of a non warning.

All of those words in Revelation 2 and 3 refer to a normal experience of a Christian pilgrim.

This is why I have become far more focused on Jezebel and Balaam than in the past, I realize that it is part of the typical Christian experience to bump into these deceits, temptations, pitfalls. We should not be surprised if we see them in the locality we are in.

For example, everyone wants to claim they are in Philadelphia, but Philadelphia is composed of saints who have all, 100%, left previous churches, and not due to backsliding. The Lord says He will make them a pillar in the house of God and "they will not go out anymore". It is a prerequisite to becoming a pillar in the house of God to be kicked out by Balaam, Jezebel, to be locked out of Laodicea, etc.

Once again, this thread is defending the practice of Witness Lee by doing the same. It is akin to the religious man praying "thank God I am not like one of those wretched Beyonce fans".

Thanks ZNP for your thoughtful post. Based on a collection of responses I have some new considerations. Here is one.

When the Lord was on the earth He said and did many things living out the divine attributes through the human virtues. By His every word and act we can see a perfect man expressing the Godhead. Yet, during His earthly sojourn He only mentioned the Church universal once ("upon this rock I will build my Church") and the local church ("tell it to the church") once. We could derive very little about Gods desire and plan for the Church universal nor the arrangement, government, beliefs, practices, or establishing of local churches from just those two verses. Those definitions He would reveal to us through His apostles but primarily through the Apostle Paul. Yet, the Lord confirmed the work of the apostles as His own by His address to the 7 churches in Revelation. In those letters to the seven churches much more is revealed about the Lord Himself. and His judgement of the works, teachings, mission, etc. of the local churches.

Probably you will not disagree with most or all of that preamble.

Now here is what I have noticed. As concerns the local churches and His assessments, judgements, commendation, condemnation, and call to individuals to overcome the shortcomings in those local churches many posters here appeal, as a counter to the Lords clear demands in the letters in Revelation, to the sayings of, as aron sums up, "a guy named Jesus" in the gospels. So "judge not lest you be judged" in the gospels is not a direct match to ""But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." revealed in Revelation. That is because the Jesus revealed in the gospels is not complete. It is part of the story. It is only when we come to Revelation that we see our High Priest, Jesus, caring for the churches in His glorified position in the heavenly tabernacle. There we see not a lowly man on Earth. Instead we see:

Revelation 1
"12) I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-13.htm)and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,d (http://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/1.htm#footnotes) dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-14.htm)The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-15.htm)His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-16.htm)In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.17 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-17.htm)When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-18.htm)I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

That Jesus, the one in Revelation, is judging, condemning, and hates some things and commends His followers who hate the same things. He condemns things in the churches. Is His condemning and hatred incompatible with love one another? incompatible with judge not? No, it is not. Does He intimate any concept close to "live and let live"? No, He does not. Does He condemn the worship of Beyonce under the banner of Christian worship? I'm certain He does. Appealing to the Jesus in the gospels while evaluating the matters He judges as the High Priest, matters that He explicitly states we are to heed, is missing the whole point of Revelation 2 & 3.

Thanks for sharing.

Drake

Drake

05-07-2018, 12:17 PM

Drake,

Why are you ignoring our testimonies when the evidences are true? Why can't simply the LC admit they were wrong? Mine is more recent a year ago.

Kevin,

Your position is very close if not identical to LofTs. It is a group discussion. 90% of the post content from posters on your side of the issue are the same arguments. Could be Xerox copies. If I see something different or unique(like your "R" vs "r") or something well thought out (like ZNPs or awareness recent posts) that I hadn't considered then I will address it.

Read my response to LofTs post and feel free to pick it up from there because I think yours and his are the same argument.

thanks
Drake

Drake

05-07-2018, 12:20 PM

But are not all of us Christians part of the same family, with the same Father, with the same brothers and sisters, with the same life and nature, with the same Lord, part of the same bride of the Lamb, with the same Bible which tells us there is "one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father."

No analogy is perfect, but mine is sure better than yours.

I still like mine better.

Yet, if the worshipers of Beyonce or those listed by Evangelical were living by the same life and nature then they wouldn't be worshiping Beyonce... would they?

Drake

Ohio

05-07-2018, 12:33 PM

I still like mine better.

Yet, if the worshipers of Beyonce or those listed by Evangelical were living by the same life and nature then they wouldn't be worshiping Beyonce... would they?

Drake
Nor Witness Lee either!

Christ, only Christ!

ZNPaaneah

05-07-2018, 04:28 PM

That Jesus, the one in Revelation, is judging, condemning, and hates some things and commends His followers who hate the same things. He condemns things in the churches. Is His condemning and hatred incompatible with love one another? incompatible with judge not? No, it is not. Does He intimate any concept close to "live and let live"? No, He does not. Does He condemn the worship of Beyonce under the banner of Christian worship? I'm certain He does. Appealing to the Jesus in the gospels while evaluating the matters He judges as the High Priest, matters that He explicitly states we are to heed, is missing the whole point of Revelation 2 & 3.

Thanks for sharing.

Drake

These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, he that walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks: 2 I know thy works, and thy toil and patience, and that thou canst not bear evil men, and didst try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not, and didst find them false;

I suppose this whole Beyonce thing could conceivably fall under “try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not and didst find them false”. Perhaps it is akin to the picture kindergarten books we use to teach kids to read, the simplest level of a false apostle used to train baby Christians.

But I fear the “leaving your first love” refers to leaving the Jesus of the gospels who came not to condemn but to give life. This is the narrow way that leads to life, we are very strict with ourselves, but lenient towards others. How do you identify the false apostles without leaving the example set by the Lord Jesus? Are you ascribing all glory, honor and power to Jesus? Or are you trying to keep the ark of the covenant from falling like Uzzah?

Drake

05-07-2018, 05:06 PM

These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, he that walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks: 2 I know thy works, and thy toil and patience, and that thou canst not bear evil men, and didst try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not, and didst find them false;

I suppose this whole Beyonce thing could conceivably fall under “try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not and didst find them false”. Perhaps it is akin to the picture kindergarten books we use to teach kids to read, the simplest level of a false apostle used to train baby Christians.

But I fear the “leaving your first love” refers to leaving the Jesus of the gospels who came not to condemn but to give life. This is the narrow way that leads to life, we are very strict with ourselves, but lenient towards others. How do you identify the false apostles without leaving the example set by the Lord Jesus? Are you ascribing all glory, honor and power to Jesus? Or are you trying to keep the ark of the covenant from falling like Uzzah?

ZNP,

I am much more simpleminded than you give me credit for.

I believe we must incorporate the whole revelation to understand and apply any part of it properly and effectively. For instance, I wouldn't preach the gospel by telling lost and wounded sinners the Lord is the One with the sharp two-edged sword coming out of His mouth. Neither would I tell Episcopalian clergy that set up this evil Beyonce worship that I "judge not lest I be judged" as a guy named Jesus taught. Wrong message for the wrong crowd. The wounded sinner should be presented with the Savior who gave His life as a ransom for many.... and the clergy that set up this evil Beyonce worship should be presented with the One whose eyes are a flame of fire, whose feet are burnished brass and the one with a two-edged sword proceeding out of His mouth. So my simple mind believes that the Lord conveys what He is, what He thinks, and what He wants us to do based on the context in which He said it to meet a particular situation. He is so wise!

Appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks
Drake

ZNPaaneah

05-07-2018, 06:31 PM

ZNP,

I am much more simpleminded than you give me credit for.

I believe we must incorporate the whole revelation to understand and apply any part of it properly and effectively. For instance, I wouldn't preach the gospel by telling lost and wounded sinners the Lord is the One with the sharp two-edged sword coming out of His mouth. Neither would I tell Episcopalian clergy that set up this evil Beyonce worship that I "judge not lest I be judged" as a guy named Jesus taught. Wrong message for the wrong crowd. The wounded sinner should be presented with the Savior who gave His life as a ransom for many.... and the clergy that set up this evil Beyonce worship should be presented with the One whose eyes are a flame of fire, whose feet are burnished brass and the one with a two-edged sword proceeding out of His mouth. So my simple mind believes that the Lord conveys what He is, what He thinks, and what He wants us to do based on the context in which He said it to meet a particular situation. He is so wise!

Appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks
Drake

This may be true. But I would ask how did you respond when you read many of those on this forum examining Witness Lee, who claimed he was an apostle, and judging that he wasn't? I agree with Revelation that this examination is commendable, however, I think it is very easy while doing this examination to be carried away into setting yourself up as judge, which is not our place. To his own lord each servant will stand.

While in college I had an experience where I saw first hand that "vengeance is mine, I will repay". Since that day I defer to the Lord's judgement because I know that if it is called for I would never be as strict as the Lord.

Instead I see our role as a witness. Perhaps my testimony is a key witness for the defense or prosecution. But to my knowledge you are not an eyewitness to this whole Beyonce thing.

Evangelical

05-07-2018, 07:02 PM

You're on a roll of righteous self-indignation; why stop when you get to the LC? Why the special treatment, why the respecting of persons? God is not a respecter of persons; why are you?

Witness Lee is worshipped as a God in China. Not by 900 but by 900,000. How is it that a Bible expositor comes to be worshiped as God? What happened there? Perhaps that his ministry was a cesspool of self promotion, self aggrandizement and self exaltation? And that the Bible got dumbed down to a series of slogans that were questionable at best, the incessant shouting of which drove his acolytes batty? What really happened to the baby gods in the PRC?

"With what measure you measure, will you also be measured". Ever heard that one? A guy named Jesus said it. The Local Church of Witness Lee is a poster child for poor, poor Christianity. Too poor.

How does one go from "poor" to "rich" to "degraded" anyway? Maybe it was just a poor ministry, all along. So poor it didn't know it was poor, and said it was rich. "You say you are rich, but you don't know that you are poor" also comes to mind.

If you google "rich ministry lsm" you'll be surprised how many web sites they have pushing these concepts. They're rich like the RCC in owning real estate, and the bodies and souls of men. "Truly I say to you, they have their reward."

I stop at the LC because this forum seems to have covered it pretty well.

Regardless of the condition of the LC and Lee we can assess his statement "Christianity is poor" based on the facts of specific instances alone, as Drake and I have presented.

All we need is a hypothesis and evidence. I consider this to be a rational approach not influenced by subjective opinions of whether he or she was right or wrong.

For example, if Lee was a sinner then his sin does not negate the facts that the Anglican church allowed gay marriage in its ranks. Jesus will not conduct a relative test of merit and compare everyone to Lee, but rather an absolute test against His standard.

I believe that Drake and I or anyone can accumulate enough specific evidence that supports the hypothesis that Christianity is poor and confirm Lee's opinion.

leastofthese

05-07-2018, 07:38 PM

Regardless of the condition of the LC and Lee we can assess his statement "Christianity is poor" based on the facts of specific instances alone, as Drake and I have presented.

I believe that Drake and I or anyone can accumulate enough specific evidence that supports the hypothesis that Christianity is poor and confirm Lee's opinion.

Could anything be presented that would detract from, contradict, or challenge the thinking of the great Witness Lee?

I ask this in a lighthearted, tongue in cheek way, but that aside. Is there anything associated with Lee that you'd admit to being flawed? I've shared this before in the forum, but a Full Timer and I were chatting one day (eh-hem, fellowshipping) in the "bookroom" of our fellowship hall (only Lee/Nee sold there). The sister stocking books walked into the room and I asked the full timer what he thought the sister would do if I questioned Witness Lee's teachings - right then and there. He laughed (knowingly) and said she'd probably freak out, she wouldn't be able to handle it.

Can you imagine that? I've never seen anything like that in all my days. May the name of Jesus be proclaimed above all others!

Drake

05-07-2018, 08:05 PM

This may be true. But I would ask how did you respond when you read many of those on this forum examining Witness Lee, who claimed he was an apostle, and judging that he wasn't?

ZNP

How I respond? Every poster in this forum is entitled to hold whatever belief he or she wants.

Drake

Trapped

05-07-2018, 08:57 PM

I stop at the LC because this forum seems to have covered it pretty well.

Regardless of the condition of the LC and Lee we can assess his statement "Christianity is poor" based on the facts of specific instances alone, as Drake and I have presented.

All we need is a hypothesis and evidence. I consider this to be a rational approach not influenced by subjective opinions of whether he or she was right or wrong.

For example, if Lee was a sinner then his sin does not negate the facts that the Anglican church allowed gay marriage in its ranks. Jesus will not conduct a relative test of merit and compare everyone to Lee, but rather an absolute test against His standard.

I believe that Drake and I or anyone can accumulate enough specific evidence that supports the hypothesis that Christianity is poor and confirm Lee's opinion.

I understand what you are saying that Lee's own condition or the local churches own condition does not have a bearing on the condition of Christianity. And if you put blinders on and restrict the parameters of the test of poorness to only that of Christianity (generally defined as non-LC gatherings of believers), I would also agree that Lee’s opinion can be confirmed.

The problem is that in the testing of Lee's opinion, it is impossible to put those blinders on in the context of Lee's speaking of his opinion. When Lee speaks of poor Christianity, the inextricable implication is that Lee’s speaking is rich and Christianity’s is not. Lee rarely puts such blinders on and states the poorness of the condition of Christianity as a standalone (or absolute) statement; it is most always in comparison to and in contrast with HIS speaking/ministry/gatherings (i.e. a relative test of merit and comparison as you described above). In pointing out poor Christianity, he is simultaneously pointing out how rich his is. Therefore, we cannot ask nor answer if half of a complete thought is correct, only if the whole thought is correct.

This is why we point to the LC when you point to Lee’s assessment of Christianity, because Lee’s opinion itself so often includes finger-pointing to both.

Example:
“While ministering in a certain place, a young man studying at a seminary came to speak to me. He asked if I believed in the Triune God. I told him that I believed more than he. Then he asked if I believed in the rapture. I asked what kind of rapture he was talking about. There is the pretribulation, posttribulation, and midtribulation rapture. Poor Christianity! There is no ministry of Christ as the rich gold. They only have the dead teachings and doctrines.” (Lee, The Wonderful Christ in the Canon of the New Testament)

Another example:
“Poor Christianity never could understand the book of Revelation, but it is so clear in the Lord's recovery.” (Lee, The Wonderful Christ in the Canon of the New Testament)

In addition, agreeing with you that there is truth to the poor Christianity statement does not automatically imply agreement with the REST of the sweeping assertions that Lee couched those statements in. To say Christianity “only [has] the dead teachings and doctrines” is absurd. If we admit there are genuine, born again believers in Christianity, how can that be so if all they hear are dead teachings? Christ must be there for someone to be saved.

It is possible to condemn one thing without lifting up another, but Lee does not do that. Therefore, it is difficult to be able to say without a qualifier that Lee was correct, when his correct statements were usually decorated with peripheral statements that were NOT correct.

Drake

05-07-2018, 09:00 PM

Evangelical

05-07-2018, 09:07 PM

Could anything be presented that would detract from, contradict, or challenge the thinking of the great Witness Lee?

I ask this in a lighthearted, tongue in cheek way, but that aside. Is there anything associated with Lee that you'd admit to being flawed? I've shared this before in the forum, but a Full Timer and I were chatting one day (eh-hem, fellowshipping) in the "bookroom" of our fellowship hall (only Lee/Nee sold there). The sister stocking books walked into the room and I asked the full timer what he thought the sister would do if I questioned Witness Lee's teachings - right then and there. He laughed (knowingly) and said she'd probably freak out, she wouldn't be able to handle it.

Can you imagine that? I've never seen anything like that in all my days. May the name of Jesus be proclaimed above all others!

Some will criticize Lee's teachings, others won't, not caring if he is right or wrong. I have criticized Lee's teachings a number of times on this forum, and in person in the meeting, and other times I won't care if he is right or wrong. But I won't agree when Lee's teachings are mis-characterized, misinterpreted or slandered.

Evangelical

05-07-2018, 09:13 PM

I understand what you are saying that Lee's own condition or the local churches own condition does not have a bearing on the condition of Christianity. And if you put blinders on and restrict the parameters of the test of poorness to only that of Christianity (generally defined as non-LC gatherings of believers), I would also agree that Lee’s opinion can be confirmed.

In that book Lee also states how poor Christianity just follows the Jews.

TLFisher

05-07-2018, 09:31 PM

My point is simple Drake - you're attempting to describe poor poor Christianity but refuse to look at the state of your own church. I've been all over the world and visited countless churches.

How dangerous are the teachings of Witness Lee and his ministry? I have no idea. But they are built on a weak foundation and continue to function through that. Those visiting this forum come to learn more, defend, ask questions, share testimony about the LSM churches - not hear about how bad the Beyonce church is, nor how XYZ denomination is crumbling towards the things of this world.

Poor poor Christianity. Those of us who were raised in the local churches may very well regard as nothing more than a catch phrase. When the local church is your only church experience, there's nothing to measure it against. However for one to say poor poor Christianity, which churches have been visited?

How dangerous are the teachings of Witness Lee? When there's no culture to question and examine the teachings of Witness Lee, there lies a great danger.

"The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." Acts 17:10-11

Kevin

05-07-2018, 09:51 PM

An elder caught me reading a different version before the meeting started.

Elder: Do not read other versions except the Recovery version. We have a rich footnotes than those poor, poor Christianity's bibles.

Me: *thinking of Revelation 3:17

He almost called me to the elder's room just to stop me using ESV. Sounds like KJV only.

I do not feel burdened to charge the saints to go home and study beyond what is in the truth lessons, but all the elders should promote the reading of the Recovery Version, the gold bar, in the homes plus all the Life-studies and other publications by the Living Stream Ministry. These will be their library books. Besides attending the meetings to learn the truth, they should read these spiritual publications every day. (Elders' Training, Book 08: The Life-Pulse of the Lord's Present Move, Chapter 5, Section 5)

My burden is that we must take good care of the young ones among us. Do not bring them into peril so that they would be occupied with the wrong things. We have a pure system of publications which comprise all the main things of the divine, spiritual, and heavenly things. These publications are very adequate for all the young saints among us to have a good foundation laid and a strong standing established. Then they could go on, not to learn more things from the old books, but to check the old books and to get themselves confirmed.

For us to bring the young ones into the old books without consideration is a peril and a risk. It is not safe. What you young ones can use as reference books, however, are the dictionaries, lexicons, and concordances. Nearly all the dictionaries have some good points. No dictionary, however, is complete and all differ from one another. Never be satisfied with one. You must use more than one. When you investigate a word, do not be satisfied with one dictionary’s definition. You must look into others. These are the only things which I would recommend for you young ones to use—the lexicons, the dictionaries of languages, and the concordances of the Bible. You should use these references in the way of comparison. This will help you. (Elders' Training, Book 04: Other Crucial Matters Concerning the Practice of the Lord's Recovery, Chapter 1, by Witness Lee)

How can the elders check the old books? They haven't read a single old book, not even a booklet. They would never waste their time spending other books. And what about 21st century books?

I tried brought a book with me by John Piper to see what their reactions are. But oh boy :thumbup::whack:

Kevin

05-07-2018, 10:01 PM

In that book Lee also states how poor Christianity just follows the Jews.

Why can't you tell the blendeds' that it is time to make a public apology and remove Lee's aberrant statements. Or why not recover/reform the Recovery according to Scriptures.

awareness

05-08-2018, 12:41 AM

I expected to address this aspect of mainstream Christianity sometime later but since this popped up today I will add it to our conversation now.

http://www.bnd.com/news/nation-world/national/article210538069.html

Now, just to be clear. I am not harkening back to days past when all the troubles broke with this man and his wife. I felt sorry for them then and it was my real hope they could turn it around. I am calling attention to a current event that is but another clear installment of evidence for poor poor Christianity.

Drake
Jim Bakker? Really! That's your example of poor poor Christianity. Bakker is a convicted criminal. Pick another one. Bakker is a cheap shot. He's a con man, using the second coming to make profit.

If anything, the poor poor part are those buying apocalyptic survival kits from him.

But ain't the Recovery doing the same thing? Maybe not selling the same kind of 'kits,' but selling bride preparation merchandise nonetheless ... same same ... and also poor poor.

Ohio

05-08-2018, 05:17 AM

I expected to address this aspect of mainstream Christianity sometime later but since this popped up today I will add it to our conversation now.

Now, just to be clear. I am not harkening back to days past when all the troubles broke with this man and his wife. I felt sorry for them then and it was my real hope they could turn it around. I am calling attention to a current event that is but another clear installment of evidence for poor poor Christianity.

Drake

Drake, Drake, Drake. Stop it please!

You have no idea what you are doing. Your mind has been so pickled by W. Lee, that you are totally blind to what you are doing.

How in the world can you characterize every Christian in Christianity by one person, unless that Person is Jesus Himself? Why instead won't you characterize the whole of Christianity by the selfless service of one brother or sister? Why do you pick one of the worst instead of one of the best? It was Lee who taught you this horrible habit.

You call this a "clear installment of evidence?" Evidence of what? Even our criminal justice system does not condemn an entire race of people due to the behavior of one man.

Ohio

05-08-2018, 05:28 AM

leastofthese

05-08-2018, 06:08 AM

Ohio

05-08-2018, 06:16 AM

Some will criticize Lee's teachings, others won't, not caring if he is right or wrong. I have criticized Lee's teachings a number of times on this forum, and in person in the meeting, and other times I won't care if he is right or wrong. But I won't agree when Lee's teachings are mis-characterized, misinterpreted or slandered.
Hey Evangelical, will you also defend other Christian ministers with the same valor when they are "mis-characterized, misinterpreted or slandered?"

How about Titus Chu or Nigel Tomes? I never saw you defend their teachings.

I hope you have not become a man-pleaser, being a "respecter of persons."

.

ZNPaaneah

05-08-2018, 06:27 AM

ZNP

How I respond? Every poster in this forum is entitled to hold whatever belief he or she wants.

Drake

That is how it was during the Judges, "everyone doing what is right in their own eyes". According to WL that is the basis of fallen Christianity and is contrary to the NT ministry.

4(for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds); 5casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ;

ZNPaaneah

05-08-2018, 06:33 AM

Drake, Drake, Drake. Stop it please!

You have no idea what you are doing. Your mind has been so pickled by W. Lee, that you are totally blind to what you are doing.

How in the world can you characterize every Christian in Christianity by one person, unless that Person is Jesus Himself? Why instead won't you characterize the whole of Christianity by the selfless service of one brother or sister? Why do you pick one of the worst instead of one of the best? It was Lee who taught you this horrible habit.

You call this a "clear installment of evidence?" Evidence of what? Even our criminal justice system does not condemn an entire race of people due to the behavior of one man.

The church is supposed to be a hospital and convalescent home for sinners. Apparently, according to some on this thread our ministry is to judge that a hospital is "poor" if there are sick people there. It seems that WL's claim that they alone had the riches and were in need of nothing was seeing that there are still sinners in the world, which of course they had nothing to do with.

Drake

05-08-2018, 07:26 AM

Jim Bakker? Really! That's your example of poor poor Christianity. Bakker is a convicted criminal. Pick another one. Bakker is a cheap shot. He's a con man, using the second coming to make profit.

If anything, the poor poor part are those buying apocalyptic survival kits from him.

But ain't the Recovery doing the same thing? Maybe not selling the same kind of 'kits,' but selling bride preparation merchandise nonetheless ... same same ... and also poor poor.

I know. The timing was just right. Popped up yesterday.

Judging by the response everyone thinks he was too easy of a target.

However, we cannot have a conversation about the poor condition of Christianity without the contribution from televangelists. Bakker is a part of Christianity, can not deny that.

Another one you say? Sure... moment.

Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 07:35 AM

Drake,How in the world can you characterize every Christian in Christianity by one person, unless that Person is Jesus Himself? .

I don’t. Each one Is evaluated on their own merits. Read the OP to understand the purpose of this thread.

Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 07:52 AM

The church is supposed to be a hospital and convalescent home for sinners.

ZNP,

Is the church a hospital and convalescent home that permits the worship of Beyoncé? A care center that teaches the 10 Articles of the Anglican Church? A shelter for aberrant activity such as those that Evangelical listed? Is a convalescent home where televangelists can sell their “Extreme Survival Warfare” water bottles?

If you can justify any of that, take your pick, from scripture then please make your case. Else, instead of fleeing the controversy why don’t you just acknowledge that they are examples of poor poor Christianity?

Drake

Ohio

05-08-2018, 08:04 AM

I don’t. Each one Is evaluated on their own merits. Read the OP to understand the purpose of this thread.

Drake
Not true!

Except for Lee followers in the LCM, Christians consider themselves as part of Christianity. They use expressions like "my Christianity" to refer to their Christian walk with Jesus, their Lord and Savior.

By you condemning "poor, poor Christianity," you are now condemning (via guilt by association) on this thread every Christian outside of the LCM.

Ohio

05-08-2018, 08:09 AM

ZNPaaneah

05-08-2018, 08:20 AM

Drake

05-08-2018, 08:31 AM

Not true!

Except for Lee followers in the LCM, Christians consider themselves as part of Christianity. They use expressions like "my Christianity" to refer to their Christian walk with Jesus, their Lord and Savior.

By you condemning "poor, poor Christianity," you are now condemning (via guilt by association) on this thread every Christian outside of the LCM.

If that is what you believe then you are entitled to it. However, you don’t get to define my beliefs for me. Mine are in the OP.

Thanks
Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 08:38 AM

Do you understand what it means when the OT says that God desires mercy and not sacrifice?

Sure. He desires mercy ...to people. He judges churches and beliefs, teachings , works, etc. fiercely. We should hate what He hates. Love as He loves.

Drake

UntoHim

05-08-2018, 08:42 AM

Jim Bakker is a laughing stock, and deserves to be. No serious Christians have EVER taken him seriously. He shamed himself, his "followers" and the Lord's name with gross financial maleficence. He taught strange and heretical teachings.

.....now wait minute....this reminds me of another red letter example of poor, poor Christianity...and one we're all too familiar with. Mr Witness Lee. Lots of similarities between Bakker and Lee. No serious Christians outside of his little sect have EVER taken Witness Lee seriously. And I hate to admit it, but if more people actually knew anything about him, or the absurd and outrageous things he and his followers have claimed for him, well...lets just say that there would be quite a bit of humorous jabbing directed at The One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age.

"Gross financial maleficence"? Forcing the sale of a church owned property/meeting halls to repay personal debts? Attempting to sneak bars of gold through customs? International money laundering schemes employed under the guise of overpriced motorhomes, tennis rackets and cheap chairs? Funneling the hard earned "donations" of church members to his son's when he knew very well they would use the money on alcohol, prostitutes and $10,000 Rolex watches?

Now that I think of it...Lee and Company don't really deserve to be categorized with poor, poor Christianity after all - A more accurate label would be "rich, rich Christianity"!!

As for strange and heretical teachings....well, don't get me started on that.:eek:
-

ZNPaaneah

05-08-2018, 08:50 AM

Hold it a second. Are you judging Witness Lee with the same judgement with which he judged Christianity?

Drake

05-08-2018, 09:16 AM

ZNP,

Is the church a hospital and convalescent home that permits the worship of Beyoncé? A care center that teaches the 10 Articles of the Anglican Church? A shelter for aberrant activity such as those that Evangelical listed? Is a convalescent home where televangelists can sell their “Extreme Survival Warfare” water bottles?

If you can justify any of that, take your pick, from scripture then please make your case. Else, instead of fleeing the controversy why don’t you just acknowledge that they are examples of poor poor Christianity?

Drake

Some have characterized my calling out Beyonce worship and televangelist Bakker as unfair examples of poor poor Christianity. However, no one defended the first 10 Articles of the Anglican Church a clear legitimate bonafide member of Christianity. And no one criticized the Anglican Church for disassociating themselves from the Episcopalian Church due to the latters embrace of ungodly teachings. Nevertheless, lets wade into the heart of modern Christianity and assess whether the beliefs and practices provide any validation of the description “poor poor Christianity”.

The Word Faith movement is a fast growing arm of Christianity and in our times the mega Lakewood Church of the Osteens is the quintessential example of that movement. Neither size, popularity, or polished marketing should give Lakewood a pass for including them in the descriptor of poor.

Other than misapplied judge not arguments or false equivalency arguments will anybody here defend this showmanship?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vKo9zhAWKXk

Drake

Ohio

05-08-2018, 10:18 AM

Not true! Except for Lee followers in the LCM, Christians consider themselves as part of Christianity. They use expressions like "my Christianity" to refer to their Christian walk with Jesus, their Lord and Savior.

By you condemning "poor, poor Christianity," you are now condemning (via guilt by association) on this thread every Christian outside of the LCM.

If that is what you believe then you are entitled to it. However, you don’t get to define my beliefs for me. Mine are in the OP.

Your belief system includes the condemnation of all of Christianity. So did Lee's.

I thought perhaps you were better than that. Apparently I was wrong.

UntoHim

05-08-2018, 10:25 AM

First of all Drake, you apparently are a member of a group that has desperately sought to be considered "a clear legitimate bonafide member of Christianity" for a number of years now. (Thankfully without much success)

Why should anyone here on this forum be asked to defend "the first 10 Articles of the Anglican Church" or the articles of any other Christians denomination or ministry that we do not personally attend, subscribe to, contribute to or even agree with? Maybe there are some Anglicans out here on the forum. I don't know. If there are, then it MIGHT BE relevant for them to address that particular issue.

You are reaching for straws...or should I say straw men.

"Wade into the heart of modern Christianity" you say? Nah, this forum wasn't started to wade into the heart of modern Christianity, it was started to wade into the heart of the Local Church of Witness Lee. Go start your own forum and you can wade into the heart of anything your little heart desires.

In the meantime, you have built up enough street cred to be able to continue on with this thread if you want. Carry on.
-

Drake

05-08-2018, 10:28 AM

Your belief system includes the condemnation of all of Christianity. So did Lee's.

I thought perhaps you were better than that. Apparently I was wrong.

Ohio,

I came out of Christianity. I was saved there, I have family members who are ordained ministers, I have friends there, I have many wonderful life changing experiences there. Don't pretend you know what I believe beyond what I have written.

Now, is that your defense of the Dance ministry at Lakewood? What Drake believes excuses that worldly showmanship? I thought you were smarter than that. Apparently, I was wrong.

Drake

Ohio

05-08-2018, 10:44 AM

Ohio,

I came out of Christianity. I was saved there, I have family members who are ordained ministers, I have many wonderful life changing experiences there. Don't pretend you know what I believe beyond what I have written.

Now, is there your defense of the Dance ministry at Lakewood? What Drake believes excuses that worldly showmanship? I thought you were smarter than that. Apparently, I was wrong.

Drake
I'm just going by your posts in this thread.

Paul told Timothy, "In a great house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also wooden and earthen, and some unto honor and some unto dishonor. If therefore anyone cleanses himself from these, he will be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work." (2 Tim 2.20-21)

God allows these ones in His "great house" so that the honorable vessels will cleanse themselves to be useful to Him and prepared for all good works.

You obviously missed these verses due to your judgmental attitude, and instead of cleansing yourself from those at LSM, (read UntoHim's post #148) you have decided to bribe your conscience by using every dishonorable vessel you can find to condemn the whole House of God.

Ohio

05-08-2018, 10:56 AM

Ohio,

I came out of Christianity. I was saved there, I have family members who are ordained ministers, I have many wonderful life changing experiences there.
Brother Drake, you were saved in the Father's love by the Lord Jesus into the body of Christ to drink of one Spirit through a faithful member who prayed and shared the Gospel with you. We all were. (I Cor 12)

It is a shame that you would condemn that place as "poor, poor, Christianity," and then think somehow you have left the body of Christ for a better place.

awareness

05-08-2018, 11:22 AM

I know. The timing was just right. Popped up yesterday.

Judging by the response everyone thinks he was too easy of a target.

However, we cannot have a conversation about the poor condition of Christianity without the contribution from televangelists. Bakker is a part of Christianity, can not deny that.

Another one you say? Sure... moment.

Drake
Forget Bakker. Bad example. But as far as I can see, Evangelical Christianity is in such a mess that it's in need of at least a few thousand revivals.

I know Untohim doesn't allow politics on this forum, but it needs to be asked. I'm not there so I don't know, but has the Recovery gotten as involved into politics as today's evangelicals? Maybe we need to drag this down to AltVs. Except, everyone here should hear your answer.

Drake

05-08-2018, 11:30 AM

First of all Drake, you apparently are a member of a group that has desperately sought to be considered "a clear legitimate bonafide member of Christianity" for a number of years now. (Thankfully without much success)...

UntoHim,

I brought the topic up to discuss Brother Lee's belief and characterization "poor poor Christianity" because it has been mentioned as a point of criticism in this forum. Yet, from the first time I heard Brother Lee make that statement I could easily scroll through the rolodex of my christian experience and think of many examples of exactly what he meant. As I said in the base note, not every Christian group fits the characterization but enough do to validate the statement he made. It does not need to be true 100% of the time to be a true statement. I expected that many in this forum would argue for moral equivalency and they did but, I had not considered how deeply ingrained this teaching of "judge not" dismisses the clear condemnation of works, teachings, and practices identified by our Lord in Revelation 2 & 3. And it is ironic that those who hold that belief of "judge not" in practice judge a lot.. a whole bunch actually.

So, that's the discussion, it is not a straw man and even if I were so inclined there is no need for one. Instead, we will systematically review the various scenarios of Christianity using the public record and make our own conclusions.

Thanks
Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 11:37 AM

I'm just going by your posts in this thread.

Paul told Timothy, "In a great house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also wooden and earthen, and some unto honor and some unto dishonor. If therefore anyone cleanses himself from these, he will be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work." (2 Tim 2.20-21)

God allows these ones in His "great house" so that the honorable vessels will cleanse themselves to be useful to Him and prepared for all good works.

You obviously missed these verses due to your judgmental attitude, and instead of cleansing yourself from those at LSM, (read UntoHim's post #148) you have decided to bribe your conscience by using every dishonorable vessel you can find to condemn the whole House of God.

Ohio,

That is a good verse. However, the process of that verse is clear "If therefore anyone cleanses himself from these, he will be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work".

Wouldn't you agree that we should cleanse ourselves from Beyonce worship, Bakker waterbottles, unscriptural teachings of Anglicanism, and the Dance shows of Osteen's church?

We don't need to condemn the whole house... just these aspects.

Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 11:42 AM

has the Recovery gotten as involved into politics as today's evangelicals? Maybe we need to drag this down to AltVs. Except, everyone here should hear your answer.

awareness,

recovery. little "r". Kevin caught that error.

Not that I am aware of. Best as I can tell most of the saints lean in a certain direction though I have met some pretty vocal on both sides. Very little from the podium, can't really recall anything specific.

Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 11:47 AM

Brother Drake, you were saved in the Father's love by the Lord Jesus into the body of Christ to drink of one Spirit through a faithful member who prayed and shared the Gospel with you. We all were. (I Cor 12)

It is a shame that you would condemn that place as "poor, poor, Christianity," and then think somehow you have left the body of Christ for a better place.

Ok. We are getting somewhere.

I do not think "Christianity" is what the Lord had in mind. You keep defending it like it is. I think Christianity is a big tent that includes things in it that are not the Lord's desire or doing. Therefore, I point out the things in it that do not represent the Lord or His interests.....

...and why shouldn't we? Don't we have such an obligation?

Drake

Jo S

05-08-2018, 11:59 AM

leastofthese

05-08-2018, 12:07 PM

Ok. We are getting somewhere.

I do not think "Christianity" is what the Lord had in mind. You keep defending it like it is. I think Christianity is a big tent that includes things in it that are not the Lord's desire or doing. Therefore, I point out the things in it that do not represent the Lord or His interests.....

...and why shouldn't we? Don't we have such an obligation?

Drake

Drake, how is what you are doing on this thread helping anything? Has anyone been encouraged towards Christ or away from sinful religious practices? Has anyone learned anything new?

Ohio

05-08-2018, 12:16 PM

UntoHim,

I brought the topic up to discuss Brother Lee's belief and characterization "poor poor Christianity" because it has been mentioned as a point of criticism in this forum. Yet, from the first time I heard Brother Lee make that statement I could easily scroll through the rolodex of my christian experience and think of many examples of exactly what he meant. As I said in the base note, not every Christian group fits the characterization but enough do to validate the statement he made. It does not need to be true 100% of the time to be a true statement.

Ohio,

That is a good verse. However, the process of that verse is clear "If therefore anyone cleanses himself from these, he will be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work".

Wouldn't you agree that we should cleanse ourselves from Beyonce worship, Bakker waterbottles, unscriptural teachings of Anglicanism, and the Dance shows of Osteen's church?

We don't need to condemn the whole house... just these aspects.

Drake
Now you are changing the definition of "Christianity."

It is abundantly clear, listening to Lee and the Blendeds for 30+ years, that Christianity was every thing Christian apart from the LCM. Christianity included all genuine Christians in all Christian denominations. Christianity included all evangelicals.

Christianity as such did not include errant and heretical sects like the JW, Mormons, the RCC, ets. Lee considered all of these to be part of a greater set called "Christendom."

Would you not also agree that some of the officers at LSM are also vessels unto dishonor, that we need to cleanse ourselves from? And that we must condemn these aspects at LSM?

awareness

05-08-2018, 12:41 PM

awareness,

recovery. little "r". Kevin caught that error.

Not that I am aware of. Best as I can tell most of the saints lean in a certain direction though I have met some pretty vocal on both sides. Very little from the podium, can't really recall anything specific.

Drake
When I was in the LC we voted, but there wasn't in pressure to vote one way or another.

If the LC is the same today then, they are evangelicals that didn't jump whole hog into politics, like many other evangelicals today.

As I see it, churches have failed spiritually, so they are trying to do it thru politics.

Maybe the LC is better in that regard, at least.

awareness

05-08-2018, 12:46 PM

Ok. We are getting somewhere.

I do not think "Christianity" is what the Lord had in mind. You keep defending it like it is. I think Christianity is a big tent that includes things in it that are not the Lord's desire or doing. Therefore, I point out the things in it that do not represent the Lord or His interests.....

...and why shouldn't we? Don't we have such an obligation?

Drake
Yes we do. But it's a massive job, that involves lots of money. Methinks we'll just be nipping at its ankles.

Drake

05-08-2018, 12:53 PM

Now you are changing the definition of "Christianity."

It is abundantly clear, listening to Lee and the Blendeds for 30+ years, that Christianity was every thing Christian apart from the LCM. Christianity included all genuine Christians in all Christian denominations. Christianity included all evangelicals.

Christianity as such did not include errant and heretical sects like the JW, Mormons, the RCC, ets. Lee considered all of these to be part of a greater set called "Christendom."

Would you not also agree that some of the officers at LSM are also vessels unto dishonor, that we need to cleanse ourselves from? And that we must condemn these aspects at LSM?

I agree with that definition of Christianity and Christendom. No change. Let's stick to those.

No, I do not agree with your accusation that those serving brothers are vessels of dishonor. And if you are willing to judge them, or consider them as another branch of Christianity, then you should have no problem judging all Christianity with a level hand. I have provided my assessment of the failures and people involved and see no need to discuss them ad nauseam in every thread.

But you don't use a level hand. Now why is that? In one hand you judge the local churches with an axe..... then while crying out "judge not" you coddle aberrant teachings and practices in Christianity with a free pass as if that monstrosity of an organization is something of God's own making.

That, is what is abundantly clear.

Now, you can plead your case but I won't be badgered into submission or to conform to your beliefs.

Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 01:08 PM

Drake, how is what you are doing on this thread helping anything? Has anyone been encouraged towards Christ or away from sinful religious practices? Has anyone learned anything new?

LofT,

that is a very good question. I wonder if you have given it serious thought.

So, after thousands of posts that berate the local churches and their members, what exactly is new in this forum? How many times do you need to hear about the same things over and over until you get it?

As to this thread, I've learned some new things. I've gained some insight. If you don't find anything worthwhile, then the price of admission will be refunded to you. though you are welcome to stay and contribute, I certainly would not try to force you to stay.

Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 01:26 PM

Drake, I understand the frustrations with seeing what's happening within the churches today. I think it's safe to assume all of us here see these things and are saddened by them.

Christianity just means a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Rather than disassociating yourself from Christianity, why not spread the Lord's love and testimony to places and to people that are struggling to understand the gospel?

Just because I see what other people around me are doing and strongly disappove doesn't mean I'm going to go around pretending that I'm a space alien now.:sFun_abduct:

I learned the hard way where this train of thought leads. It usually starts off with something like, "I'm removing myself from Christianity" then it snowballs into "I'm removing myself from religion altogether" and then before you know it you're embracing a spirituality that is not in line with the truth.

And I'll throw this out there. Criticism can of course be justified but in my own experience when I get caught up in a critical spirit it's just me projecting and avoiding a reality check. I'll let you decide if the same applies here or not.

Jo S,

thanks for your heart felt response.

I'll share this personal viewpoint.. I do not believe that the organizational thing we call Christianity is God's doing. I have come to believe it is in reality a construct of God's enemy designed to ensnare believers into accepting "good enough". Good enough being anything within that encourages a believer to get set and settled and not pursue the Lord to the fullest extent He wants and expects. So, for instance, those sad situations we have mentioned are not a few in number, they are rampant as will soon discover in this thread. Does God wink at them because there are under the umbrella called "Christianity"? I think not so nor will I. Revelation 2 & 3 reveals a Jesus who both commends and condemns. He commends the believers for hating the very things He hates. Should my evaluation differ from His? On what basis? Who am I to rewrite His letters to the seven churches? I dare not. Are His own to be found in Christianity? Most certainly. I've already shared in response to awareness my view of the overcomers mentioned.

I started this journey over forty years ago and while my love for the Lord has grown sweeter and His purpose ever clearer so has my distaste for the religion that deprives believers of all that He has planned for them.

thanks,
Drake

awareness

05-08-2018, 01:34 PM

I agree with that definition of Christianity and Christendom. No change. Let's stick to those...
The problem is, Christianity, including the LC, is made up of sinners, from top to bottom, head to toe ; it's full of fallen flawed human beings.

Speaking of elders in the LC being vessels of dishonor, of course not all are. But some are.

For instance. I was in a situation, between a couple of brothers. I knew for a fact which brother was telling the truth. The elders listened to each of us and then prayed. I sat while the elders prayed, and then after their prayer, they decided in favor for the lying cheating brother, I guess because he gave burning testimonies in the meetings, but the prayer made it because the Lord said so.

The elders were clearly vessels of dishonor. I couldn't trust them any more, to be leading by the Lord's guidance. They obviously weren't in touch with the Lord.

I also know of an elder in Spokane, who was the first gay lover of a brother I knew in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, who came out as gay. He was in touch with his former lover. The elder shared with him that he was going out and hooking up with boys ; another vessel of dishonor ... of elders in the R(r)covery.

Sinners I tell ya. Christianity is made up of fallen flawed human beings. Just read Lily Hsu's book to find out how fallen Watchman Nee was. He was worse than Philip and Timothy Lee - and Lee covered for all of them.

How can we ever hope to fix that? It's been going on since the beginning of Christianity. Look at all the problems Paul was dealing with. We're still dealing with those kinds of problems today. Bemoan it all you want, but, nothing has changed.

Ohio

05-08-2018, 01:35 PM

But you don't use a level hand. Now why is that? In one hand you judge the local churches with an axe.....
Where did I judge the local churches? You twist my words.

Drake

05-08-2018, 02:06 PM

Where did I judge the local churches? You twist my words.

It is how I interpret your posts.

Please clarify your POV.

Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 03:28 PM

The problem is, Christianity, including the LC, is made up of sinners, from top to bottom, head to toe ; it's full of fallen flawed human beings.

Speaking of elders in the LC being vessels of dishonor, of course not all are. But some are.

For instance. I was in a situation, between a couple of brothers. I knew for a fact which brother was telling the truth. The elders listened to each of us and then prayed. I sat while the elders prayed, and then after their prayer, they decided in favor for the lying cheating brother, I guess because he gave burning testimonies in the meetings, but the prayer made it because the Lord said so.

The elders were clearly vessels of dishonor. I couldn't trust them any more, to be leading by the Lord's guidance. They obviously weren't in touch with the Lord.

I also know of an elder in Spokane, who was the first gay lover of a brother I knew in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, who came out as gay. He was in touch with his former lover. The elder shared with him that he was going out and hooking up with boys ; another vessel of dishonor ... of elders in the R(r)covery.

Sinners I tell ya. Christianity is made up of fallen flawed human beings. Just read Lily Hsu's book to find out how fallen Watchman Nee was. He was worse than Philip and Timothy Lee - and Lee covered for all of them.

How can we ever hope to fix that? It's been going on since the beginning of Christianity. Look at all the problems Paul was dealing with. We're still dealing with those kinds of problems today. Bemoan it all you want, but, nothing has changed.

Awareness,

You are addressing a very big matter: The flesh we always have with us.

However, it is possible to overcome, for if not then His life would be inadequate and we know that it is not. He is the Firstborn among many brothers. He overcame and by His life we, as His many brothers, are enabled to overcome. To what extent we will not know until the Day of the Lord when all judgment is meted out by Him. Our starting point is different for we were born sinners. He, of course, was not. But we have His life and He is a righteous Judge.

But, I think it is important to understand that overcomers in each of the seven churches are overcoming their circumstances and they are held accountable for that. In the same way I believe that the Lord will judge us accordingly. We are not responsible for overcoming the circumstances of others. We have our own to overcome. I am reminded often when considering this about one of the final dialogues between the Lord and Peter before He ascended. Peter was just informed by the Lord that he (Peter) would die a martyrs death. Peter then inquired about John.

John 21

"Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. 18 (http://biblehub.com/john/21-18.htm)Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19 (http://biblehub.com/john/21-19.htm)Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”
20 (http://biblehub.com/john/21-20.htm)Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 (http://biblehub.com/john/21-21.htm)When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”
22 (http://biblehub.com/john/21-22.htm)Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 (http://biblehub.com/john/21-23.htm)Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

thanks
Drake

awareness

05-08-2018, 04:04 PM

But, I think it is important to understand that overcomers in each of the seven churches are overcoming their circumstances and they are held accountable for that.
We don't know anything about the seven churches in Asia, and if they overcame. They may not have. They're not even there/here today. Something must have prevented them from surviving, or from overcoming.

We can read anything into them ... as Lee liberally did ... and we/you do.

Drake

05-08-2018, 04:09 PM

We don't know anything about the seven churches in Asia, and if they overcame. They may not have. They're not even there/here today. Something must have prevented them from surviving, or from overcoming.

We can read anything into them ... as Lee liberally did ... and we/you do.

Awareness,

The call to overcome is to individuals in those churches. Only He knows who.

Drake

awareness

05-08-2018, 04:23 PM

Awareness,

The call to overcome is to individuals in those churches. Only He knows who.

Drake
Agreed. But we're still gonna have poor Christianity ... even in the local churches. Some may overcome, but not many ... we don't know. Only the Lord knows.

leastofthese

05-08-2018, 04:29 PM

LofT,

that is a very good question. I wonder if you have given it serious thought.

So, after thousands of posts that berate the local churches and their members, what exactly is new in this forum? How many times do you need to hear about the same things over and over until you get it?

As to this thread, I've learned some new things. I've gained some insight. If you don't find anything worthwhile, then the price of admission will be refunded to you. though you are welcome to stay and contribute, I certainly would not try to force you to stay.

Drake

Thanks for the response Drake.

What new things have you learned? Or what insights could you share that you've received from this thread?

Refund? Nah, you can keep your price of admission.

Drake

05-08-2018, 04:37 PM

Agreed. But we're still gonna have poor Christianity ... even in the local churches. Some may overcome, but not many ... we don't know. Only the Lord knows.

Exactly.

Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 04:39 PM

Thanks for the response Drake.

What new things have you learned? Or what insights could you share that you've received from this thread?

Refund? Nah, you can keep your price of admission.

Well, I explained the one about "judge not" a few posts back.

The other major one is that even in the 20 years since Brother Lee 's passing Christianity has in many ways become even poorer.

Drake

Jo S

05-08-2018, 04:55 PM

Jo S,
I started this journey over forty years ago and while my love for the Lord has grown sweeter and His purpose ever clearer so has my distaste for the religion that deprives believers of all that He has planned for them.

thanks,
Drake

Fair enough and I understand.

Drake, you have love for the Lord but by what have you measured his love for you in those 40 years?

Drake

05-08-2018, 05:50 PM

Fair enough and I understand.

Drake, you have love for the Lord but by what have you measured his love for you in those 40 years?

In so many ways in so many areas. If I had to pick top of mind it would be love for others and grace to overcome.

Drake

leastofthese

05-08-2018, 06:21 PM

Well, I explained the one about "judge not" a few posts back.

The other major one is that even in the 20 years since Brother Lee 's passing Christianity has in many ways become even poorer.

Drake

I re-read the "judge not" posts. So you learned that people on this forum judge the local churches and that Christianity is even worse off than you thought? Is that what you mean?

I'm sorry if those are incorrect assumptions, but I'm not sure I'm tracking with you on this. Does what I said above accurately reflect what you've learned?

awareness

05-08-2018, 06:56 PM

Jo S

05-08-2018, 06:59 PM

In so many ways in so many areas. If I had to pick top of mind it would be love for others and grace to overcome.

Drake

Has your 40 year walk all been with the Local Churches? Or did you have some experience with denominations before coming to the LC?

Drake

05-08-2018, 07:06 PM

I re-read the "judge not" posts. So you learned that people on this forum judge the local churches and that Christianity is even worse off than you thought? Is that what you mean?

I'm sorry if those are incorrect assumptions, but I'm not sure I'm tracking with you on this. Does what I said above accurately reflect what you've learned?

No. posts #112 and #117. They were only posted yesterday but they are way back so no wonder you could not find them.

Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 07:10 PM

Has your 40 year walk all been with the Local Churches? Or did you have some experience with denominations before coming to the LC?

Before I came into the local church I was in the denominations (Baptist, Free Group for a short span, and Pentecostal). Served in most offices in the Pentecostal denomination except lead pastor.

Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 07:12 PM

Some say it's the apostasy spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Yep. That is plausible. Prolly gets much worse before it gets better.

Jo S

05-08-2018, 07:15 PM

Before I came into the local church I was in the denominations (Baptist and Pentecostal). Served in most offices in the Pentecostal denomination except lead pastor.

Drake

What made you leave the Pentecostal church?

leastofthese

05-08-2018, 07:17 PM

No. posts #112 and #117. They were only posted yesterday but they are way back so no wonder you could not find them.

Drake

I just read those posts. Glad you got something out of it.

I’m not sure I understand those post in context of the OP and my questions. But I’m moving along.

Drake

05-08-2018, 07:45 PM

What made you leave the Pentecostal church?

I had many wonderful experiences of the Lord in the Pentecostal denomination mainly pertaining to the gifts of the Spirit. Yet, there was still something missing and I did not know what it was exactly. I was serving the Lord, very busy with that, ran the music service, lead an outreach program, served as a board member, was a Bible teacher for various groups, and was very involved in young peoples work. Still, there was some empty spot.

Then one day I read the book "The Glorious Church". As i read that book the Lord spoke to me and I saw the Bible in a richer and deeper way than I had experienced up to that time.. I was an avid reader of christian authors but reading that book caused fireworks to go off. Mainly, I saw that though I was satisfied with my experience of the Christian life, yet God also has a desire from eternity past.. His desire was a bride for Himself.. the Church. I may have expressed to Him audibly or in prayer that if He wanted me to be a part of that I would yield to His wishes. I did not know what that meant exactly for I had not yet even heard of the local church or anything related. I did not realize at that time that He would set forth a series of events that would facilitate my exit from the Pentecostal group a little later, in spite of my arguing with Him about how He was going about it, and my entrance into the local church. I have shared my testimony elsewhere that would fill in some of the blanks but sorry i do not know where it is or how to locate it in the forum.

Thanks for asking.

Drake

Ohio

05-08-2018, 08:21 PM

It is how I interpret your posts.

Please clarify your POV.

Drake
I only address actions by leaders, and do not categorize the whole of the LC's under some broad brush judgment, as the scripture instructs us.

awareness

05-08-2018, 08:51 PM

Yep. That is plausible. Prolly gets much worse before it gets better.
I don't know. Wasn't the great apostasy when the RCC became the state religion? Has there ever been such an apostasy on such a grand scale, and for such a long long time? Isn't it still with us? And isn't it the largest Christian sect in the world?

Drake

05-08-2018, 09:52 PM

I don't know. Wasn't the great apostasy when the RCC became the state religion? Has there ever been such an apostasy on such a grand scale, and for such a long long time? Isn't it still with us? And isn't it the largest Christian sect in the world?

Can’t disagree but there is a disturbing trend happening with the popularity of groups like Osteen’s Lakewood Church .... that dance routine I posted for instance and I don’t know whether Lakewood originated it or borrowed it. Fast forward to minute 5:30 and note the imagery conveyed in this clip.

https://youtu.be/iFAMw7Sd924

What’s that all about? Different church so some kind of trend in various Christian groups.

Clearly another current example of poor poor Christianity. No better description.

Drake

Drake

05-08-2018, 10:09 PM

I only address actions by leaders, and do not categorize the whole of the LC's under some broad brush judgment, as the scripture instructs us.

You use both the acronyms LSM and LCM. My observation is that you use LSM to refer to leaders and LCM (Local Church Movement) when you are referring to the whole including local churches, elders, and it’s members. So when you deride LCM you are deriding local churches under that.

If that is not how you have used it please clarify so there is no misunderstanding going forward.

Thanks
Drake

Kevin

05-08-2018, 11:17 PM

Drake

05-08-2018, 11:41 PM

I'm really upset with your poor, poor Christianity thing. No one denies that and besides those false churches do not constitute true Christianity. I do not buy Lee's definition of Christianity. He denigrated the term Christianity than Watchman Nee's usage in a positive way in his book, What is Christianity? :mad:

Kevin. If the Anglican Church is not Christianity. If the Episcopalian Church is not Christianity. If Joel Osteens Lakewood Church is not Christianity or that other one in the dance video. If televangelists are not Christianity.... then please tell us who qualifies as Christianity?

Yet, I believe that any subset you might define will be narrower than the generally accepted definition of Christianity. If you don’t like what you see and hear don’t shoot the messenger!

If you don’t think these should be included in Christianity then define it. Post an excerpt from the book. Make your case.

Drake

Evangelical

05-09-2018, 12:16 AM

leastofthese

05-09-2018, 05:55 AM

Can’t disagree but there is a disturbing trend happening with the popularity of groups like Osteen’s Lakewood Church .... that dance routine I posted for instance and I don’t know whether Lakewood originated it or borrowed it. Fast forward to minute 5:30 and note the imagery conveyed in this clip.

https://youtu.be/iFAMw7Sd924

What’s that all about? Different church so some kind of trend in various Christian groups.

Clearly another current example of poor poor Christianity. No better description.

Drake

That looks like a secular performance group, they do different entertainment routines. Was this in the Lakewood Church building or something? Or does this group claim to be Christian? I don’t see anything about that on their website. I honestly don’t know much about Osteen, he doesn’t impact my life in anyway. So feel free to bash away if that is how you are called by the Lord’s Spirit. I don’t think many here follow Osteen either. So your warnings and condemnation again fall on knowing ears or those (like myself) that have no connection to Osteen and his church.

Here is an example of poor Christianity. After serving with and alongside a church in Nigeria, not only was I exposed to the false gospel of the Prosperity Gospel movement, but I was brought into the lead pastor’s office and he attempted to threaten me in order to receive a bribe. I don’t know how my sharing of this story helps anyone, but at least they know that Christians across the globe are imperfect, and so are their gatherings. Is this what you’re looking for Drake?

When I think of poor Christianity, I think of the brothers and sisters trapped in the LSM churches, I think of you Drake. Your words and those of Evangelical are saved here on this forum, displaying and reflecting poor, poor Christianity. You are currently blind to see it, but know, that it does not go unnoticed.

But this too can be overcome by the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. There is still time. God is gracious and merciful to those who seek Him. He is a mighty and awesome deliverer of His children.

ZNPaaneah

05-09-2018, 06:59 AM

So feel free to bash away if that is how you are called by the Lord’s Spirit.

I don't think anyone is called of the Lord to "bash away". The NT is clear "who are you to judge another man's servant?" We are not called to beat or bash the Lord's servants.

You are permitted to report wrong doing to the master, we see several places where the Lord rebukes a servant saying "what is this I hear about you". So being a witness is acceptable. Also, in Matthew 18 you are in a position to protect the offended saints from the abusive ones. There is a rigorous protocol that must be followed. However, in that same chapter you are warned very seriously about not treating your brothers and sisters with mercy.

Also, this is what I think the Lord was referring to when he told the church in Ephesus that they had left their first love. It is acceptable to examine a so called apostle and determine if they are or not, it is not acceptable to judge another man's servant. It is a fine line between judging the MOTA doctrine and judging WL.

It is one thing to say that we don't condemn other believers with blanket statements like "poor, poor Christianity", it is not acceptable to pull up a youtube video of someone's worship and condemn that person.

45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he hath. 48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord tarrieth; 49 and shall begin to beat his fellow-servants, and shall eat and drink with the drunken; 50 the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he expecteth not, and in an hour when he knoweth not, 51 and shall cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

awareness

05-09-2018, 09:30 AM

Can’t disagree but there is a disturbing trend happening with the popularity of groups like Osteen’s Lakewood Church .... that dance routine I posted for instance and I don’t know whether Lakewood originated it or borrowed it. Fast forward to minute 5:30 and note the imagery conveyed in this clip.

https://youtu.be/iFAMw7Sd924

What’s that all about? Different church so some kind of trend in various Christian groups.

Clearly another current example of poor poor Christianity. No better description.

Haha ... methinks you've got a bit of a sense of humor there.

But to be fair, I think I've seen that girl before, at Cirque du Soleil. Brother Drake, how did you watch that for over 5 minutes? It was very pornographic (not that I dislike pretty graceful women - and working on computers since before the WWW I've seen plenty of porn. But not with my morning tea).

Her movements were beautiful, but I'm afraid if you're trying to give us examples of poor, poor, Christianity, you should at least pick something Christian.

If you go to Liquidsky on the web it says :

"LiquidSky brings together a highly trained troupe of diverse artists who create expressive performances with a mesmerizing display of grace, athleticism and the beauty of cirque entertainment. Our high-quality aerial acts and unique performances will elevate your private party, nightclub, fundraising gala, or corporate event to a higher level of excellence."http://www.liquidskyent.com/

In other words, dear brother, it's not Christian at all.

Please brother, give us better examples of poor, poor, Christianity. There are churches here, even in hillbilly backwater churches, that put on quite the entertainment ; with several big screen TVs, a full rockin' band, and angelic singers. I've been there. It's very moving.

And it's a Southern Baptist church. So after preaching about donating money, there was an altar call.

Brother Drake, not only do words change down thru the ages, so does culture. This is the Multimedia Age. It was before my time, but I heard that even the local churches were embracing multimedia, to show Witness Lee speaking on a big screen. You can even find local church meetings on YouTube. So if you want to show examples of poor, poor, Christianity, show one of them. Not Cirque du Soleil.

It's all poor, poor, poor, Christianity out there. And you are right. It is like a Circus act. When I was in the LC, a couple of visitors to the meeting turned to each other and said, "These people are half a bubble off level."

And they were right. I was.

Keep trying brother. What about the present Met Gala : "Heavenly Bodies: Fashion and the Catholic Imagination."?

Drake

05-09-2018, 09:56 AM

-1

Awareness,

I think that was a church meeting based on the audience and the songs being sung (hosanna). The title also says “Church”. The stage appeared like a fixed stage where someone would speak from a podium as opposed to the Cirque stage. The stage has steps such as you might find in a church meeting where the preacher can come down and interact with the crowd and the audience can kneel at for prayer. The Cirque stage will be higher acting as a barrier to prevent fans from rushing the stage. A shot of the ceiling also appears like that you find in a mega church.That church may have very well hired the Cirque dancers... however, it was by all accounts a church. My wife and I viewed it together and she agrees. She felt like you that it was inappropriate.

But, the issue is the trend more so than a single instance. Osteens Lakewood Church has a dance program not just performances, but training young people in dance. That is a valid proof point of poor poor Christianity in the context of this thread.

I do not think any Christian group can be criticized for “Met Gala”. It was a mockery.

Drake

Drake

05-09-2018, 10:25 AM

Before we leave Osteens Lakewood Church I think it is important that we understand why this group is included in the scope of Christianity. Their statement of belief is fundamental articulating the basics of the faith.

https://www.lakewoodchurch.com/Pages/new-here/What-We-Believe.aspx

But a review of their practices shows a worldliness that is condemned by the Lord. A clear example of that church genre well described as poor poor Christianity.

Let’s focus on the largest segment of Christianity. The Catholic Church

There is probably no greater example of poor poor Christianity than the Roman Catholic Church. Filled with idols and worship of Mary, superstitious in their practices, a clear marriage to the world, and a hierarchical government that is an affront to both the headship of Christ and the universal priesthood of believers. Add to that the murder of countless believers in the Lord. With the Catholic Churchb you have a demonic organization.

I doubt any, except a Catholic, would give these heresies a pass. Also, it is generally accepted that the Catholic Church with the largest membership, is part of Christianity.

Drake

awareness

05-09-2018, 10:26 AM

-1

Awareness,

I think that was a church meeting based on the audience and the songs being sung (hosanna).
If only we could find out what church hired Liquidsky for the show? I looked for signs of Osteen, but didn't catch any.

Still brother, what are Christians to do? This generation grew up on multimedia. If the gospel ever hopes to reach them it's gonna have to embrace it.

Didn't you share that LSM allowed electric guitars? The same pressure to embrace multimedia that's on the Christian masses out there, is also on the LSM local churches. In other words, go with multimedia or die ... and the gospel - and the Lord - loses out.

Ohio

05-09-2018, 10:33 AM

Kevin. If the Anglican Church is not Christianity. If the Episcopalian Church is not Christianity. If Joel Osteens Lakewood Church is not Christianity or that other one in the dance video. If televangelists are not Christianity.... then please tell us who qualifies as Christianity?

Yet, I believe that any subset you might define will be narrower than the generally accepted definition of Christianity. If you don’t like what you see and hear don’t shoot the messenger!

If you don’t think these should be included in Christianity then define it. Post an excerpt from the book. Make your case.

Drake
There are segments of every denomination, including your own, which are shameful. Think back to every one of your "storms."

UntoHim

05-09-2018, 10:45 AM

Ohio

05-09-2018, 11:04 AM

If only we could find out what church hired Liquidsky for the show? I looked for signs of Osteen, but didn't catch any.

Still brother, what are Christians to do? This generation grew up on multimedia. If the gospel ever hopes to reach them it's gonna have to embrace it.

Didn't you share that LSM allowed electric guitars? The same pressure to embrace multimedia that's on the Christian masses out there, is also on the LSM local churches. In other words, go with multimedia or die ... and the gospel - and the Lord - loses out.
Isn't it ironic that the classic Protestant hymns espoused by LSM's Hymnal includes musical arrangements which were deemed too worldly for its time.

So ... in the eyes of certain legalistic bureaucrats within the church, the only difference between "spiritual" and "worldly" music is perhaps a generation.

Drake

05-09-2018, 11:05 AM

Sorry Mr. Drake, we're not getting into the teachings and practices of the Catholic Church.
Let's stick to Protestantism. Unless of course you want to have the Local Church "take the heat" for Eastern Lightning.
I don't think you really want to get into that hornet's nest here on this thread, do you?
-

Correct UntoHim,

No plan to get into the Catholic teachings. I don’t think anybody here disagrees but since it is the largest branch of Christianity , it and all its baggage easily qualify as poor poor Christianity.

Thanks
Drake

Ohio

05-09-2018, 11:12 AM

I doubt any, except a Catholic, would give these heresies a pass. Also, it is generally accepted that the Catholic Church with the largest membership, is part of Christianity.

Drake
That's not what you said before. You agreed that RCC was Christendom.

And not all would accept this statement.

Most would say that the gospel must be preached in order to be part of Christianity.

But one thing is true -- no one obsesses more over "Christianity" than those who read LSM's teachings.

Ohio

05-09-2018, 11:14 AM

Sorry Mr. Drake, we're not getting into the teachings and practices of the Catholic Church.
Let's stick to Protestantism. Unless of course you want to have the Local Church "take the heat" for Eastern Lightning.
I don't think you really want to get into that hornet's nest here on this thread, do you?
-

This brings up another point -- the only valid reason for this thread is an attempt by a few LSMers to say, "we are not as bad as them."

awareness

05-09-2018, 12:12 PM

This brings up another point -- the only valid reason for this thread is an attempt by a few LSMers to say, "we are not as bad as them."
If that's the case bro Ohio, then they are being tribalistic, like so many other groups ... a we/them thing. It's completely a thing of the flesh ... a carry over from our primitive tribalistic days. I think it's hardwired in human nature ... and therefore is of the flesh.

zeek

05-09-2018, 01:19 PM

Correct UntoHim,

No plan to get into the Catholic teachings. I don’t think anybody here disagrees but since it is the largest branch of Christianity , it and all its baggage easily qualify as poor poor Christianity.

Thanks
Drake

This thread is based on a false dichotomy that views Witness Lee's little group and Christianity as mutually exclusive, when in fact they are indistinguishable. Witness Lee's group is part of Christianity. The fact that Leeites, like yourself claim to be different just makes you like the other Christian sects that claim to be the only ones who are doing it right. So if you want to see how Christianity is poor poor, just look in the mirror.

Drake

05-09-2018, 01:52 PM

If that's the case bro Ohio, then they are being tribalistic, like so many other groups ... a we/them thing. It's completely a thing of the flesh ... a carry over from our primitive tribalistic days. I think it's hardwired in human nature ... and therefore is of the flesh.

The OP explains the purpose. Go with that.

Drake

Drake

05-09-2018, 01:53 PM

This thread is based on a false dichotomy that views Witness Lee's little group and Christianity as mutually exclusive, when in fact they are indistinguishable. Witness Lee's group is part of Christianity. The fact that Leeites, like yourself claim to be different just makes you like the other Christian sects that claim to be the only ones who are doing it right. So if you want to see how Christianity is poor poor, just look in the mirror.

Several have said the same thing.

Thanks
Drake

zeek

05-09-2018, 02:03 PM

Several have said the same thing.

Thanks
Drake

When are you going to get message? Churches consist of human beings. There are no perfect human beings and there are no perfect churches. Jesus taught us to deal with our own flaws not to point fingers or cast stones at other people. Who's teaching are you going to follow, Jesus' or Witness Lee's?

Drake

05-09-2018, 02:08 PM

When are you going to get message? Churches consist of human beings. There are no perfect human beings and there are no perfect churches. Jesus taught us to deal with our own flaws not to point fingers or cast stones at other people. Who's teaching are you going to follow, Jesus' or Witness Lee's

Zeek,

This isn’t a vote.

How do you reconcile your view with Revelation 2 & 3?

Please explain.

Drake

zeek

05-09-2018, 02:29 PM

Zeek,

This isn’t a vote.

How do you reconcile your view with Revelation 2 & 3?

Please explain.

Drake

I don't see a problem.

Drake

05-09-2018, 02:44 PM

I don't see a problem.

Good. Please explain how your view matches the Lord Jesus in Revelation 2 & 3.

Concerning churches and their teachings, practices, works, and condition He judges, He condemns, He hates, and He commends those who hate what He hates. Everyone thus far seems to want to overlook that. Maybe you will clear it up.

I have explained my view of this in #112 and #117.

Thanks
Drake

awareness

05-09-2018, 02:48 PM

The OP explains the purpose. Go with that.

Drake
Tribalism is at the bottom as one of the reasons Christianity is so poor. That it characterizes Lee's local church movement means the local churches are just as poor as all the rest.

Look, I was a big fan of one church one city because ideally it included all Christians in a city. However, it didn't work out that way. It turned into, 'you're not in our tribe/church, so you aren't the church.' It went from inclusiveness to exclusiveness. And it's still that way, and is poor for it.

ZNPaaneah

05-09-2018, 02:55 PM

I don't see a problem.

Ephesus: thou canst not bear evil men, and didst try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not, and didst find them false…But I have this against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love.

The first portion clearly commends the saints for investigating the claim to apostleship and finding it false. That might support a thread referring to "poor, poor Christianity". However this needs to be tempered with "leaving their first love". I understand that to refer to the Christ we received when we heard the gospel. To go from that salvation story to now judging every group out there is akin to leaving your first love.

Smyrna: the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10*Fear not the things which thou art about to suffer: behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life.

My concern about those in Ephesus judging others seems to have become worse with Smyrna, they are hypocrites, blasphemous, and abusive to the believers. All of this is under the cloak of religion. the warning to me is who am I? Am I the suffering church or the synagogue that has become the adversary to the Lord.

Pergamum: in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14*But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there some that hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. 15*So hast thou also some that hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans in like manner.

I would say the religious persecution we see in Smyrna has grown worse here. Antipas is killed, martyred, as a faithful witness of the Lord. Balaam is a key teacher, he teaches leaders how to stumble the weaker believers. If Drake is claiming that this is what he is focused on in the statement "poor, poor Christianity" it is best supported with this church. You have idol sacrifice, fornication, false prophets, and martyrdom.

Thyatira: 20*But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21*And I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent of her fornication. 22*Behold, I cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of her works. 23*And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto each one of you according to your works. 24*But to you I say, to the rest that are in Thyatira, as many as have not this teaching, who know not the deep things of Satan, as they are wont to say; I cast upon you none other burden.

Rebuking the saints for "tolerating" Jezebel is also a strong support to this thread. If the claim is that "poor, poor Christianity" is poor because they tolerate Jezebel, idol worship and fornication, then it is valid to say "I am with Antipas", not going to tolerate this.

Sardis: for I have found no works of thine perfected before my God.

However, each church is very focused on you. Instead of pointing fingers at others, "are your works perfected before God?"

Laodicea: I will spew thee out of my mouth. 17*Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked:

It seems to me that most of the judgement given by the Lord to these churches is based on their speaking. Arrogance, boasting, hypocrisy, blasphemy, and persecuting and martyring those who won't go along with you. You have false prophets teaching leaders how to stumble those who are not aligned with them. You have apostles claiming to be apostles when they aren't. You have Jezebel claiming to be a prophetess when she isn't.

Drake

05-09-2018, 03:22 PM

Tribalism is at the bottom as one of the reasons Christianity is so poor. That it characterizes Lee's local church movement means the local churches are just as poor as all the rest.

Look, I was a big fan of one church one city because ideally it included all Christians in a city. However, it didn't work out that way. It turned into, 'you're not in our tribe/church, so you aren't the church.' It went from inclusiveness to exclusiveness. And it's still that way, and is poor for it.

No. I understood what you meant.

I was redirecting you to the base note to understand my purpose. You used Ohio's mis-characterization to springboard into your tribal view op-ed. You said "If that's the case bro Ohio, then..."

Well, its not the case.

awareness

05-09-2018, 03:58 PM

No. I understood what you meant.

I was redirecting you to the base note to understand my purpose. You used Ohio's mis-characterization to springboard into your tribal view op-ed. You said "If that's the case bro Ohio, then..."

Well, its not the case.
Wow! That's great. That means the local church would accept me even if I don't use the Recovery Version, care for Lee's Life Studies, don't hold that Lee was the apostle, oracle, and God's authority on the earth, and don't care about either Nee and/or Lee.

Is that what you are saying?

zeek

05-09-2018, 04:01 PM

Thanks ZNP for your thoughtful post. Based on a collection of responses I have some new considerations. Here is one.

When the Lord was on the earth He said and did many things living out the divine attributes through the human virtues. By His every word and act we can see a perfect man expressing the Godhead. Yet, during His earthly sojourn He only mentioned the Church universal once ("upon this rock I will build my Church") and the local church ("tell it to the church") once. We could derive very little about Gods desire and plan for the Church universal nor the arrangement, government, beliefs, practices, or establishing of local churches from just those two verses. Those definitions He would reveal to us through His apostles but primarily through the Apostle Paul. Yet, the Lord confirmed the work of the apostles as His own by His address to the 7 churches in Revelation. In those letters to the seven churches much more is revealed about the Lord Himself. and His judgement of the works, teachings, mission, etc. of the local churches.

Probably you will not disagree with most or all of that preamble.

Now here is what I have noticed. As concerns the local churches and His assessments, judgements, commendation, condemnation, and call to individuals to overcome the shortcomings in those local churches many posters here appeal, as a counter to the Lords clear demands in the letters in Revelation, to the sayings of, as aron sums up, "a guy named Jesus" in the gospels. So "judge not lest you be judged" in the gospels is not a direct match to ""But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." revealed in Revelation. That is because the Jesus revealed in the gospels is not complete. It is part of the story. It is only when we come to Revelation that we see our High Priest, Jesus, caring for the churches in His glorified position in the heavenly tabernacle. There we see not a lowly man on Earth. Instead we see:

Revelation 1
"12) I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-13.htm)and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,d (http://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/1.htm#footnotes) dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-14.htm)The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-15.htm)His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-16.htm)In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.17 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-17.htm)When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-18.htm)I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

That Jesus, the one in Revelation, is judging, condemning, and hates some things and commends His followers who hate the same things. He condemns things in the churches. Is His condemning and hatred incompatible with love one another? incompatible with judge not? No, it is not. Does He intimate any concept close to "live and let live"? No, He does not. Does He condemn the worship of Beyonce under the banner of Christian worship? I'm certain He does. Appealing to the Jesus in the gospels while evaluating the matters He judges as the High Priest, matters that He explicitly states we are to heed, is missing the whole point of Revelation 2 & 3.

Thanks for sharing.

Drake

Rev. 2 & 3 were written to the angels of seven churches. Which one of those angels do you suppose you are? Really? :xx:

Drake

05-09-2018, 04:03 PM

Drake

05-09-2018, 04:10 PM

Rev. 2 & 3 were written to the angels of seven churches. Which one of those angels do you suppose you are? Really? :xx:

You’ll find out. :cool:

But you understand that the Lord Jesus described there does not fit the one you used in your argument.

Drake

zeek

05-09-2018, 04:21 PM

You’ll find out. :cool:

I think those "epistles" were written to the angels of the seven churches not to you or me. Am I wrong?

But you understand that the Lord Jesus described there does not fit the one you used in your argument.

Drake

So now you have two Lord Jesuses? :nono:

Drake

05-09-2018, 04:40 PM

I think those "epistles" were written to the angels of the seven churches not to you or me. Am I wrong?

So now you have two Lord Jesuses? :nono:

You are saying that the Lord was describing the actions of angels? His call to overcome was to angels? Interesting doctrine. I never heard it before. Please show how it applies. Take the first one .. Rev 2:1-7

There is one Lord Jesus. You are only recognizing half a Jesus.

Drake

Ohio

05-09-2018, 05:26 PM

I was redirecting you to the base note to understand my purpose. You used Ohio's mis-characterization to springboard into your tribal view op-ed. You said "If that's the case bro Ohio, then..."

Wow! That's great. That means the local church would accept me even if I don't use the Recovery Version, care for Lee's Life Studies, don't hold that Lee was the apostle, oracle, and God's authority on the earth, and don't care about either Nee and/or Lee.

Is that what you are saying?
You have to reject Ohio too. Don't forget!

awareness

05-09-2018, 05:32 PM

Apparently, we are as two knights passing on a ship.
Is that why you couldn't answer me?

leastofthese

05-09-2018, 06:16 PM

ZNPaaneah

05-09-2018, 06:51 PM

You’ll find out. :cool:

But you understand that the Lord Jesus described there does not fit the one you used in your argument.

Drake

The Jesus in Revelation matches the Jesus in the gospels, I do not have any conflict.

1. The church in Ephesus came in contact with those claiming falsely to be apostles. They were able to determine that but in the process they left their first love. The Lord doesn't call us to judge and throw stones at anyone, but rather to return to our first love.

2. Then in Smyrna we now see a dichotomy in the church, those suffering persecution for the Lord and the phony ones who claim they are Jews and are not, the "synagogue of Satan". They are adversaries to the church and are necessary for the growth, maturity, and overcoming. We are called to overcome these teachings.

3. In Pergamum we see the distinction between these two come into better focus. False prophets, stumbling of the weaker saints, those with a strong testimony are being martyred, and the distinction is described as those that are Nicolaitans and those that hate the teaching of the Nicolaitans. In this church there are those who have done some truly evil things, the Lord doesn't call us to judge them or to cast stones at them, but rather to hold onto what we have and keep the Lord's works to the end. We will know that it is Jesus who searches the reins and hearts. Not you sir. Not Uzza.

4. In Sardis there are only a few saints left who have not "defiled their garments", those are the ones who will walk in white.

5. In Philadelphia we learn where all the saints went, they were forced to "go out" from these other locales. This is a key step in the forming of the pillars of the house of God.

6. In Laodicea the Lord has also left, just as he warned the church in Ephesus that this would be the result, the lamp stand is gone, and He is calling for the last remnants to leave. He does call for us to open the door and go out unto Him, but never once does He call us to judge and throw stones.

Never once does He call us to judge them, we are called to return to our first love, to stand in faith like Antipas, to hold onto what we have, to keep the Lord's works of salvation to the end, to not defile our garments.

He is the same in the gospels as He is in Revelation. We were always told that "vengeance is mine, I will repay". That is not a surprise. We are not the one with the sharp two edged sword, instead this is an opportunity for the Lord to reveal Himself.

Evangelical

05-09-2018, 07:13 PM

Wow! That's great. That means the local church would accept me even if I don't use the Recovery Version, care for Lee's Life Studies, don't hold that Lee was the apostle, oracle, and God's authority on the earth, and don't care about either Nee and/or Lee.

Is that what you are saying?

There are plenty of people in the recovery who are as you describe. I was one until I learnt to appreciate the richness of the ministry. I use the Recovery version by choice because I found it is better than most bible versions and study bibles. I have a number of other versions which I can use any time.

Independent review of the Recovery Version have found it to be an excellent version:

https://conversantfaith.com/2017/06/13/recovery-version-bible-review/

The Recovery Version is an excellent, literal translation (slightly more so than the ESV) suited for serious study.

Evangelical

05-09-2018, 07:20 PM

Large churches are filled with many unconverted carnal people because pastors use carnal means (as Drake has shown) to attract people and have dumbed down the gospel, not preaching the true gospel. As we saw in Drake's example, a church swelling from 50 to 900 people is not genuine growth, but such rapid growth is possible through the use of gimmicks or worldliness. Anyone involved in evangelism knows that genuine growth does not happen so fast.

If carnal methods are used to attract people this will attract carnal men. For them the church becomes a place to find purpose and meaning in their life which most people seek, and they may be given some role or responsibility by the pastor to give them a sense of contribution to the group and keep them interested. But there is a small group of converted people in every large church, all they want is Christ, but the pastor caters to the larger group of unconverted people through worldly entertainment and lets the sheep starve to death.

Personally I distinguish between the larger gatherings of unconverted ones and the pastor who leads them and the genuine believers in the church. Anything shown e.g. Beyonce happening in the church is clearly from or catered to the unconverted ones.

If we do not speak out against it for fear of offending or hurting the small group of converted ones in the church (the "broad brush" as it is called) I am afraid that we are being just like the pastor catering to the majority unconverted. The Bible itself is not afraid of the "broad brush" in calling Babylon for what it is, even though a number of believers reside in her. To them, the Bible says to "come out", not try and fix things from within. A number of believers continue to fellowship in Babylon and perhaps with some ego think they are somehow improving or helping the situation by being there, when in reality they are only harming themselves and furthering the cause of Babylon.

Jo S

05-09-2018, 08:32 PM

As we saw in Drake's example, a church swelling from 50 to 900 people is not genuine growth, but such rapid growth is possible through the use of gimmicks or worldliness. Anyone involved in evangelism knows that genuine growth does not happen so fast.

Evangelical, I'd be curious to hear your views on the rapid growths of movements such as the Azusa street revival. Do you believe this was a genuine move of God or was it successful because of gimmicks would you say?

Drake

05-09-2018, 08:55 PM

“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Yes, that’s true LofT.

However, If Beyonce worship was introduced in your church is that how you would respond? Would you not speak out? Criticize and condemn?

Shouldn’t we join with the mind of the Lord in those matters just as much as holding an attitude of humility and kindness toward others?

Our Lord Jesus is both the Godman in the gospels and the High Priest in Revelation 2&3.

Drake

awareness

05-09-2018, 09:00 PM

There is one Lord Jesus. You are only recognizing half a Jesus.

And I like zeek's half. Zeek's half is the Jesus in the gospels ; the 'one' Lord Jesus.

Drake's half, if I may, is the Revelation Jesus, not the gospels Jesus. The Revelation Jesus wants nothing to do with loving neighbors and enemies ; not the loving Jesus found in the gospels.

The Revelation Jesus is "another Jesus." So I'll take zeek's half.

Drake

05-09-2018, 09:06 PM

Is that why you couldn't answer me?

Yes. Our exchange diverged and was growing farther apart with each post.

I’ll try to get us back on the same page.

Ohio, as is his practice, ascribed evil motives to a fellow poster, me, that the purpose of the thread was to show “we are not as bad as them”. He is asking us to dismiss the stated purpose of the thread in the opening post. He knows better or is pretending to be a mind reader of some sort.

You chased his mischaracterizing with “if that’s the case bro Ohio, then...”

I then pointed you back to the opening point because what he said was not the case. Our conversation diverged from there.

Drake

Drake

05-09-2018, 09:10 PM

And I like zeek's half. Zeek's half is the Jesus in the gospels ; the 'one' Lord Jesus.

Drake's half, if I may, is the Revelation Jesus, not the gospels Jesus. The Revelation Jesus wants nothing to do with loving neighbors and enemies ; not the loving Jesus found in the gospels.

The Revelation Jesus is "another Jesus." So I'll take zeek's half.

And awareness, you have just demonstrated why taking half of anything in the Bible is a bad idea. There is one Jesus and He is both the lioving Godman in the gospels and the shepherding High Priest in Revelation 2&3. That is why He is so wonderful and we can trust everything about Him.

Thanks
Drake

Drake

05-09-2018, 09:21 PM

Evangelical

05-10-2018, 03:39 AM

Evangelical, I'd be curious to hear your views on the rapid growths of movements such as the Azusa street revival. Do you believe this was a genuine move of God or was it successful because of gimmicks would you say?

The revival itself I think not of God but of man because it was based on the preaching that tongues is evidence of the Holy Spirit which is unbiblical. We could say that speaking in tongues was the gimmick, in this case. It all started when some people spoke in tongues, this attracted others who also wanted to speak in tongues, and you get this snowball effect. Similar mass herding or flocking phenomena occurs whenever Apple releases a new iPhone. If this revival started from the preaching of the gospel as it did in the Bible then I would find it more believable. At the same time, genuine moves of God on a personal level and genuine salvations would have been occurring because of the increased rate of gospel preaching, but not because of some special revival or the preaching about tongues but simply because more people were getting out and preaching.

I think all revivals are manufactured by men, because they all start and end because of men and front and center is some sort of gimmick and fast growth is not sustainable and it is not genuine growth.

ZNPaaneah

05-10-2018, 05:40 AM

Yes, that’s true LofT.

However, If Beyonce worship was introduced in your church is that how you would respond? Would you not speak out? Criticize and condemn?Drake

I have not met with the LRC for 20 years, I did not realize that they had started to worship Beyonce. No, of course you should speak out.

leastofthese

05-10-2018, 06:30 AM

Yes, that’s true LofT.

However, If Beyonce worship was introduced in your church is that how you would respond? Would you not speak out? Criticize and condemn?

Shouldn’t we join with the mind of the Lord in those matters just as much as holding an attitude of humility and kindness toward others?

Our Lord Jesus is both the Godman in the gospels and the High Priest in Revelation 2&3.

Drake

If Beyonce worship started in my church I would take immediate action, but that would not include writing about it on this forum. I'm not sure how that applies here. Surely you're not suggesting that this was your motivation for starting the thread.

Last week my church gathered with all other churches in town to serve the community in various projects around the city. I never saw the local churches serve anyone but themselves (Although I was only there for a year). Maybe you can take that back to your locality - we're called to love and serve those around us.

Drake

05-10-2018, 06:51 AM

If Beyonce worship started in my church I would take immediate action, but that would not include writing about it on this forum. I'm not sure how that applies here. Surely you're not suggesting that this was your motivation for starting the thread..

Ok. Perhaps this will clarify the purpose of this thread since you keep bringing it up.

If your pastor, prominent leader of “the LofT Church” (I don’t know the real name and don’t care to know it), believed strongly in community activities with other churches and held strong vocal convictions against Beyonce worship, soulish dance performances under the guise of worship, the 10 Articles of Anglicanism, and the teachings and practices of the Episcopalian Church that got them ostracized by the Anglican Church.... and a forum like this were opened with exmembers criticizing his teachings and convictions and lambasting his coworkers and mocked his practices of meeting with other churches for community projects and his stand against Beyonce worship and those other ungodly things...wouldn’t you be inclined to step up and offer a defense? Or would that be too much of a Pharisee for your taste?

If you can imagine that scenario then you will understand the purpose of this thread in this forum. Yet, I thought the base note was clear needing no further explanation as to purpose. We are now examining a particular belief of “my pastor”, to put it in terms more familiar to you, and I am arguing that he was on solid ground to characterize the situation in the Church as poor poor Christianity.

Hope that clarifies.

Drake

ZNPaaneah

05-10-2018, 06:59 AM

Ok. Perhaps this will clarify the purpose of this thread since you keep bringing it up.

If your pastor, prominent leader of “the LofT Church” (I don’t know the real name and don’t care to know it), believed strongly in community activities with other churches and held strong vocal convictions against Beyonce worship, soulish dance performances under the guise of worship, the 10 Articles of Anglicanism, and the teachings and practices of the Episcopalian Church that got them ostracized by the Anglican Church.... and a forum like this were opened with exmembers criticizing his teachings and convictions and lambasting his coworkers and mocked his practices of meeting with other churches for community projects and his stand against Beyonce worship and those other ungodly things...wouldn’t you be inclined to step up and offer a defense? Or would that be too much of a Pharisee for your taste?

If you can imagine that scenario then you will understand the purpose of this thread in this forum. Yet, I thought the bast note was clear.

Drake

So then this thread is a defense of Witness Lee's claim regarding "poor, poor Christianity".

1. Part of this claim is that there are not any other worthy ministries. Other than a few history books and Strong's concordance I was taught in the LRC not to read any other ministry other than Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Also the Watchman Nee ministry came with the caveat that you had to be concerned about who published it. So far this thread has completely neglected this aspect.

2. If you are going to use Revelation 2-3 for a defense of Witness Lee that seems to open up a very big can of worms.

3. This supports what many of us have been saying on this thread -- your defense of WL is that "hey, at least he isn't like those over there talking about Beyonce, or dancing to Hossana"

Your logic is that if there is any behavior done under the name of Christianity that you disprove of then that is proof of Witness Lee's claim to "poor, poor Christianity". Using that logic if there is any ministry that is of the Lord other than Witness Lee's it proves that his claim there isn't is wrong.

Ohio

05-10-2018, 07:00 AM

I have not met with the LRC for 20 years, I did not realize that they had started to worship Beyonce. No, of course you should speak out.
After learning about decades of malfeasance covered up by top officials at LSM, nothing surprises me any more.

They must learn from other fruitful ministers (Acts 23.1-2) that having a conscience void of offense is critical. They love to talk about "exercising their spirit" which really means just shouting (hence called "shouters" in Asia), but the real exercise of our spirit is to exercise our faith and our conscience. (I Tim 1.18-19)

awareness

05-10-2018, 07:12 AM

And awareness, you have just demonstrated why taking half of anything in the Bible is a bad idea. There is one Jesus and He is both the lioving Godman in the gospels and the shepherding High Priest in Revelation 2&3. That is why He is so wonderful and we can trust everything about Him.

Thanks

And thanks back atchya. I say, so you say. But it's not depicted that way. Combining both the beginning of the NT, and the end, it could be said that Jesus is saying, "Do as I say, not as I do."

Drake

05-10-2018, 07:17 AM

So then this thread is a defense of Witness Lee's claim regarding "poor, poor Christianity".

1. Part of this claim is that there are not any other worthy ministries. Other than a few history books and Strong's concordance I was taught in the LRC not to read any other ministry other than Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Also the Watchman Nee ministry came with the caveat that you had to be concerned about who published it. So far this thread has completely neglected this aspect.

2. If you are going to use Revelation 2-3 for a defense of Witness Lee that seems to open up a very big can of worms.

3. This supports what many of us have been saying on this thread -- your defense of WL is that "hey, at least he isn't like those over there talking about Beyonce, or dancing to Hossana"

Your logic is that if there is any behavior done under the name of Christianity that you disprove of then that is proof of Witness Lee's claim to "poor, poor Christianity". Using that logic if there is any ministry that is of the Lord other than Witness Lee's it proves that his claim there isn't is wrong.

On 1. I was never restricted in anyway as you describe. I am still not.

On 2. Sure. To this forum it is a big can of worms, to me it is examining specifics instead of a generalization. Let the worms fall where they may.

3. No. I anticipated, with the exception of Evangelical, you and everyone else would devote your energy to show how Witness Lee, his coworkers, and the local churches, elders and the so called “LCM” including its members were nothing more than another proof point of poor poor Christianity. I do not need to devote energy making moral equivalency arguments , you all are doing fine at that. Rather we will substantiate one way or the other whether the title statement is valid.

Drake

awareness

05-10-2018, 07:21 AM

I think all revivals are manufactured by men, because they all start and end because of men and front and center is some sort of gimmick and fast growth is not sustainable and it is not genuine growth.
Amen EvanG. Both the Little Flock (Nee) and the USA local church were started by men.

Drake

05-10-2018, 07:26 AM

And thanks back atchya. I say, so you say. But it's not depicted that way. Combining both the beginning of the NT, and the end, it could be said that Jesus is saying, "Do as I say, not as I do."

Ever the provocateur awareness, however your contribution is helpful nonetheless. You articulated a problem exhibited here in this thread several times already. There are arguments that only understand or appreciate the Lord Jesus in the gospels and do not include the Jesus revealed in Revelation. To his credit, only ZNP attempted to reconcile the two.

Thanks
Drake

awareness

05-10-2018, 08:13 AM

you all are doing fine at that.

Drake
Thanks bro Drake. Except for a couple of flubs -- Bakker, and swinging sexy lady -- you're doing a fine job too.

But if Bible knowledge is the criteria, I can show you thousands, maybe millions, of examples of poor, poor, Christianity. Just visit your local churches, not the Lee kind, but those near you, and talk to the members about the Bible.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, knowledge of the Bible is not the Lord's criteria. Being generated by the Spirit doesn't require it.

And only the Lord knows. So be careful bro Drake. Not to avoid silly booboos, but pointing your finger and saying poor, poor, Christianity. You might just be pointing at those the Lord doesn't consider poor.

And that also applies to me -- our -- pointing the finger at Local Churchers.

I'd say that it's likely most local churchers have no idea about the poor parts of Nee, Lee, and LSM. They'er simple. They just have a heart for the Lord. Just like so many Lee -- and you doing your darnedest -- called poor, poor.

It just takes a little humility to admit that we're no better than others. The problems with Nee and Lee is that neither had even that much.

Nee kinda had a good reason. He was opposing the invasion into China, of those poor, poor, Western Missionaries. Even tho without them, neither He nor Lee, would be Christians. Proving, even poor, poor, Christianity can produce -- according to you & LSMs bank account -- good results.

Turns out that those you and Lee call poor are very busy spreading Christianity around the world. I agree, after discovering that western missionaries are actually spreading Western culture, that it might be poor, but still, Christianity of all sorts is spreading.

Drake

05-10-2018, 08:38 AM

The revival itself I think not of God but of man because it was based on the preaching that tongues is evidence of the Holy Spirit which is unbiblical. We could say that speaking in tongues was the gimmick, in this case. It all started when some people spoke in tongues, this attracted others who also wanted to speak in tongues, and you get this snowball effect. Similar mass herding or flocking phenomena occurs whenever Apple releases a new iPhone. If this revival started from the preaching of the gospel as it did in the Bible then I would find it more believable. At the same time, genuine moves of God on a personal level and genuine salvations would have been occurring because of the increased rate of gospel preaching, but not because of some special revival or the preaching about tongues but simply because more people were getting out and preaching.

I think all revivals are manufactured by men, because they all start and end because of men and front and center is some sort of gimmick and fast growth is not sustainable and it is not genuine growth.

In post #185 I described my positive though incomplete experience in Pentecostalism. Here I will provide what I consider the poor poor Christianity aspects of Pentecostslism. One is a basic teaching and the other are practices.

First, a fundamental flaw in most Pentecostal churches is the Arminian belief of conditional salvation.

“The conditional preservation of the saints, or commonly conditional security, is the Arminian belief that believers are kept safe by God in their saving relationship with Him upon the condition of a persevering faith in Christ.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_preservation_of_the_saints

This plays out as an elevator salvation... one minute you are up , next you are down. It is applied something like this... you are in a meeting speaking in tongues, only real evidence that you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, then next day you go out with buddies, have a few drinks, hit the road with one too many under your belt, run into a telephone pole, die and... you find yourself in hell. You start to become introspective about everything in your life because your eternal status is dependent on it. You start to ask, what if I die right now? That is a frequent message from the pulpit. Conversely, if you leave a meeting on good terms with the Lord and die on the way home, you end up in heaven.

Next post on practices.

Drake

ZNPaaneah

05-10-2018, 08:44 AM

On 1. I was never restricted in anyway as you describe. I am still not.

I did not say you were "restricted" I said you have neglected this. It is the crucial point, since WL put "poor poor Christianity" in juxtaposition with his "rich, rich ministry".

On 2. Sure. To this forum it is a big can of worms, to me it is examining specifics instead of a generalization. Let the worms fall where they may.

OK, I will begin to sprinkle them out.

3. No. I anticipated, with the exception of Evangelical, you and everyone else would devote your energy to show how Witness Lee, his coworkers, and the local churches, elders and the so called “LCM” including its members were nothing more than another proof point of poor poor Christianity. I do not need to devote energy making moral equivalency arguments , you all are doing fine at that. Rather we will substantiate one way or the other whether the title statement is valid.

Drake

You just said that this thread is a defense of WL's ministry. As I understand it "compared to idol worshippers, fornicators and Jim Baker his ministry looks pretty good". Is that correct?

Drake

05-10-2018, 08:55 AM

I did not say you were "restricted" I said you have neglected this. It is the crucial point, since WL put "poor poor Christianity" in juxtaposition with his "rich, rich ministry".

You just said that this thread is a defense of WL's ministry. As I understand it "compared to idol worshippers, fornicators and Jim Baker his ministry looks pretty good". Is that correct?

I have not juxtaposed anything but i understand why you automatically go there.

What Brother Lee described as “poor poor Christianity “ stands or falls on its own merits. That is the purpose of this thread. You may offer your own examples of poor poor Christianity wherever you think they exist.

Drake

Drake

05-10-2018, 09:09 AM

In post #185 I described my positive though incomplete experience in Pentecostalism. Here I will provide what I consider the poor poor Christianity aspects of Pentecostslism. One is a basic teaching and the other are practices.

First, a fundamental flaw in most Pentecostal churches is the Arminian belief of conditional salvation.

“The conditional preservation of the saints, or commonly conditional security, is the Arminian belief that believers are kept safe by God in their saving relationship with Him upon the condition of a persevering faith in Christ.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_preservation_of_the_saints

This plays out as an elevator salvation... one minute you are up , next you are down. It is applied something like this... you are in a meeting speaking in tongues, only real evidence that you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, then next day you go out with buddies, have a few drinks, hit the road with one too many under your belt, run into a telephone pole, die and... you find yourself in hell. You start to become introspective about everything in your life because your eternal status is dependent on it. You start to ask, what if I die right now? That is a frequent message from the pulpit. Conversely, if you leave a meeting on good terms with the Lord and die on the way home, you end up in heaven.

Next post on practices.

Drake

I cannot nor will I deny the positive life changing experiences I had in a Pentecostal Church. However, the environment lends itself to superstition and manufactured exhibitions. I will recount two that I consider to be firmly in the poor poor category.

First, because glossia is so important to the group as evidence of the Holy Spirit it was often manufactured... by that I mean speaking in tongues was brought by repeating “coca-cola ten times real fast”. One dear older sister used to reach out and kinda yank the lower lip of someone trying to break through as if to jump start the glossia.

Second, during revivals there was frequent supernatural manifestations. “I was praying here today and Jesus appeared standing right there at the end of this altar. And He told me,..”.

I should add that a popular interpretation of tongues started with “ If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves...l “ etc. I was pretty sure He had more to say but it was just part of that culture as it were.

These are examples but they reflect what is poor about Pentecostalism in my experience.

Drake

UntoHim

05-10-2018, 09:10 AM

Come on Mr. Drake, you're smarter than that. (at least I thought you were)

"Poor, poor Christianity" is a comparative statement. Poor, poor COMPARED TO WHAT? The simple fact is that Witness Lee was comparing the Local Church(es) to other Christian churches, denominations and ministries. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So compare away my friend....but everything comes right back to the source of your comparison - The teachings and practices established by Witness Lee and the history (good, bad and in between) of the Local Church movement.
-

zeek

05-10-2018, 10:10 AM

You are saying that the Lord was describing the actions of angels? His call to overcome was to angels? Interesting doctrine. I never heard it before. Please show how it applies. Take the first one .. Rev 2:1-7

You "never heard it before"? Perhaps you don't have "ears to hear" [v.7]. :rolleyes: The "epistle" is addressed, not unto men but "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus." That's not my interpretation, that's my quotation, as Witness Lee liked to say.

Maybe you missed that because your MOTA translated the Greek word αγγελος as messenger which he interprets to be a "spiritual one" in order to make it fit into his interpretive system.

But the word αγγελος is translated as angel throughout the rest of the Book of Revelation. Thus, it seems that the "Recovery Version" obscured the plain word of the text.

Perhaps LSM should rename Witness Lee's book the Covering Version, since Witness Lee's peculiar use of the English language and copious footnotes cover up more meaning than they reveal.

There is one Lord Jesus. You are only recognizing half a Jesus.

What are you basing that accusation on? Presumption?

I wouldn't have such a problem with Lee, his ministry or his book if he didn't claim to be the MOTA and set himself above everyone else. And you seem to be continuing that trend with this "poor poor Christianity" thread. :thumbsdown: